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20090727 02:13:37< ancestral> Zarel, Turuk: so I'm proposing changing the lancer names to Lancer → Heavy Lancer → War Charger → Heavy Hussar
20090727 02:14:24< Blueblaze> Heavy Hussler
20090727 02:14:27< Blueblaze> I like it
20090727 02:16:38< ancestral> The hussar was a light cavalry, thus requiring the prefix; the War Charger is a generic name for any Knight or Cavalry unit which used a war charger horse, being any medium-weight horse, the best being a destrier 
20090727 02:17:26< Blueblaze> Such name is too regional and time specific imo
20090727 02:17:48< ancestral> The same could be said about
20090727 02:17:50< Blueblaze> Heavy Hussar only applies to the Polish hussar
20090727 02:17:56< Blueblaze> for the Polish Army
20090727 02:18:16< Blueblaze> Heavy Hussar -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars
20090727 02:18:16< ancestral> Hoplite
20090727 02:18:19< ancestral> Yes
20090727 02:18:57< Blueblaze> Yes but the Hoplite is a Merman
20090727 02:19:02< ancestral> So?
20090727 02:19:05< Blueblaze> which breaks such ties to humans
20090727 02:19:12< Blueblaze> nvm
20090727 02:19:15< ancestral> Humans in the game of Wesnoth are not humans on Earth
20090727 02:19:18< Blueblaze> just make Polish Hussars
20090727 02:19:34< ancestral> I will not put place names in these titles
20090727 02:24:45< ancestral> Okay the one place I do need help with
20090727 02:26:13< ancestral> is the Orcish Assassin. I had some s#!+ty names here before for the next advancement
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20090727 02:31:42< keb> arent they called Avenger at one point
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20090727 02:33:56< Zarel> ancestral: How about Lancer -> Heavy Lancer -> Charger -> War Charger?
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20090727 02:34:13< ancestral> I could do that.
20090727 02:34:24< Zarel> Imagine
20090727 02:34:29< ancestral> all the people...
20090727 02:34:37< ancestral> sorry :)
20090727 02:34:43< Zarel> Horseman -> War -> Famine -> Pestilence -> Death
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20090727 02:35:46< keb> those are supposed to show up in parallel
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20090727 02:36:06< conor> why is wesnoth so anal about spam?
20090727 02:36:18< keb> who isnt anal about spam
20090727 02:36:23< Blueblaze> people who spam
20090727 02:36:31< conor> is this spam?
20090727 02:36:33< Zarel> Actually, they're pretty anal about it too. ;)
20090727 02:36:36< ancestral> This isn't Wesnoth, this is IRC
20090727 02:36:40< conor> did i just make 3 members spam?
20090727 02:36:44< Zarel> Is what spam?
20090727 02:36:47< conor> 4* members spam
20090727 02:36:49< keb> careful, if we say spam 3 times in a row thosee viking guys show up and start singing
20090727 02:36:50< Zarel> Okay, look, now you're just trolling.
20090727 02:37:00< ancestral> http://www.wishlist.nu/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/spam.jpg
20090727 02:37:10< conor> is there a difference?
20090727 02:37:14< ancestral> It's Crazy Tasty
20090727 02:37:28< keb> i got nothing against trolls, some of my best units are trolls
20090727 02:37:43< conor> i want spam and eggs spam bacon spam spam and spam
20090727 02:38:02< conor> could i just have spam eggs and bacon without the spam?
20090727 02:38:06< conor> WHAT NO SPAM
20090727 02:38:20< keb> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Support
20090727 02:38:24< keb> gets a database error
20090727 02:39:46< keb> hmm the whole wiki is down
20090727 02:39:50< conor> hmmm
20090727 02:40:00< conor> cause the server is being DDOS
20090727 02:40:07< conor> by someone who hates wesnoth...
20090727 02:40:08< keb> must be spammers fault
20090727 02:40:14< conor> yep :D
20090727 02:40:19< keb> how could anyone hate wesnoth
20090727 02:40:27< keb> except spammers
20090727 02:40:47< ancestral> The wiki is working
20090727 02:40:49< Zarel> I dunno. Maybe some other open-source game project who's jealous of Wesnoth's popularity?
20090727 02:40:53 * Zarel wistles innocently
20090727 02:40:57< ancestral> Everything is working
20090727 02:40:58< conor> ok, this joke is getting far too silly 
20090727 02:40:59< keb> now it is
20090727 02:41:10< conor> silly silly silly
20090727 02:41:24< conor> NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION
20090727 02:41:47< ancestral> Okay guys help me out
20090727 02:42:01< conor> ancestral: sup
20090727 02:42:09< ancestral> What's a more powerful Orcish Assassin called?
20090727 02:42:15< conor> orc slayer
20090727 02:42:20< keb> right now its called salyer
20090727 02:42:22< ancestral> More powerful than a slayer?
20090727 02:42:26< keb> yeah
20090727 02:42:30< conor> THE COMFY CHAIR?!?!?
20090727 02:42:38< keb> Terminator?
20090727 02:42:42< ancestral> Hmmm
20090727 02:42:42< ancestral> No
20090727 02:42:58< Zarel> ancestral: You know, I have a different idea.
20090727 02:42:58< conor> hmmm
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20090727 02:43:04< conor> orc douchebag?
20090727 02:43:07< Zarel> How's about, we tone down the amount of progress the ne-
20090727 02:43:09< ancestral> That's better
20090727 02:43:14< Zarel> LOL at "orc doucebag"
20090727 02:43:32< Zarel> That might work better as a Thug upgrade. :P
20090727 02:43:49< keb> tesaurus.com says eliminator, liquidator
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20090727 02:43:56< conor> i think all assassins should be forthwith renamed to douchebagss
20090727 02:44:05< conor> maybe an entire era of douchebags
20090727 02:44:13< Zarel> lol, liquidator would be a great name.
20090727 02:44:23< noy> Zarel: is that meeting over?
20090727 02:44:37< Zarel> noy: The one I talked about like five hours ago? Yeah. :P
20090727 02:44:42< noy> hm
20090727 02:45:00< ancestral> Seemed to me it was about creating leagues and groups and stuff for different games
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20090727 02:45:06< Zarel> One of the things the meeting determined
20090727 02:45:09< ancestral> (I didn't attend)
20090727 02:45:23< Zarel> is that apparently there aren't any lists of FOSS games sorted by popularity.
20090727 02:45:45< Zarel> So consensus is that most popular is probably Wesnoth and second most popular is probably Nexuiz.
20090727 02:45:48< keb> i think the lower level one could be renamed hitorc or butcher
20090727 02:45:55< Zarel> But no one knows for sure, and no one has any idea about the rest.
20090727 02:46:06< noy> ... so they want to create a league for wesnoth?
20090727 02:46:11< conor> noy: is your name from the armory guy on the wall in the series a song of ice and fire?
20090727 02:46:23< noy> ?
20090727 02:46:28< conor> riiiiiight
20090727 02:46:29< ancestral> Certainly exposure is important for foss games to grow
20090727 02:46:39< noy> do we need to grow?
20090727 02:46:51< ancestral> Maybe not us, but other games passed the first two?
20090727 02:46:59< noy> or better question, do we need a better model to grow?
20090727 02:47:10< Zarel> I wouldn't mind growing.
20090727 02:47:19< Zarel> More support for FOSS, the better.
20090727 02:47:49< noy> that doesn't mean better development for wesnoth
20090727 02:47:53< Zarel> Wesnoth is fairly popular, but relative to most proprietary games, we're virtually unheard-of.
20090727 02:48:04< ancestral> Actually Jetrel made a comment about sequels and such
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20090727 02:48:31< ancestral> Which it occurred to me people aren't made aware when new content come to Wesnoth, mostly since it's always coming in
20090727 02:48:57< ancestral> Outside of the Wesnoth community
20090727 02:49:09< noy> so what Zarel ?
20090727 02:49:29< noy> should we base our benchmarks according to proprietary games?
20090727 02:49:37< Zarel> I don't see why not.
20090727 02:49:47< noy> I do; we aren't/
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20090727 02:49:56< Zarel> That's not a good reason at all.
20090727 02:50:09< ancestral> Anyway, if we get a 2.0, I hope people spread the word, so that even if it is only an incremental update from 1.8, that people will see that "2" and think, "hey, what's changed that it's got a 2 in it?"
20090727 02:50:27< ancestral> Assuming there isn't a 1.10 and 1.12 before it
20090727 02:50:29< noy> Its an excellent reason. It works on differnent models, we don't make money, we offer a game type that has fallen to the wayside
20090727 02:50:33< Zarel> I don't see why we shouldn't make Wesnoth the best game it can possibly be.
20090727 02:50:43< noy> thats not what I said Zarel 
20090727 02:51:01< Zarel> Proprietary games just happen to be one benchmark we can compare Wesnoth's popularity to.
20090727 02:51:20< noy> making the game better is not hte same as comparing it to proprietary software.
20090727 02:51:28< noy> and neither should it be. 
20090727 02:51:48< noy> The nature of the program works on the basis of the society we use today. 
20090727 02:51:50< Zarel> ...all I'm doing is comparing its popularity...
20090727 02:51:55< ancestral> All the same, if Wesnoth is as popular as it is among FOSS games and FOSS circles, you cannot avoid looking to people who buy and play primarily proprietary games
20090727 02:51:58< Zarel> I'm not providing social commentary here.
20090727 02:52:05< ancestral> if you want more people involved
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20090727 02:52:36< noy> Comparing the popularity of apples and oranges
20090727 02:52:48< ancestral> More people, typically, makes a game better
20090727 02:52:53< noy> Not really. 
20090727 02:52:58< noy> Thats entirely contestable actually. 
20090727 02:53:01< Zarel> ...no, comparing the popularity of games and games.
20090727 02:53:30< noy> ...
20090727 02:53:34< Zarel> Look, all I did was compare the popularity of Wesnoth to proprietary games. I didn't even make a judgment as to whether or not more popularity is better.
20090727 02:53:45< ancestral> noy: I think you write that off much too quickly
20090727 02:53:58< noy> Oh really ancestral ?
20090727 02:54:08< Zarel> Are you just jumpy whenever anyone mentions proprietary software or something? o_O
20090727 02:54:29< noy> Not really, I know how proprietary development works, and I know how wesnoth development works.
20090727 02:55:16< noy> and watching the two, I really don't like comparisons, mostly because I think they set unfair and unrealistic benchmarks for the program
20090727 02:55:21< ancestral> noy: Do you not agree, that the more talented minds that find interest in Wesnoth the better the game will get?
20090727 02:55:36< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Personally, I'd hate to hit a 2.0 for marketing reasons.
20090727 02:55:39< noy> when in reality our current development model works effectively
20090727 02:55:53< keb> theres talent and theres motive and theres communication
20090727 02:56:05< Zarel> Aethaeryn: The other solution is to hold off the next "really good" feature for 2.0. ;)
20090727 02:56:10< noy> No, especially if the creative content in the game suffers because people start pulling the game in their own directions
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20090727 02:56:20< ancestral> noy: Is that happening now?
20090727 02:56:24< noy> Which is a very real issue in development.
20090727 02:56:26< noy> Not really. 
20090727 02:56:37< ancestral> I still find that hard to believe
20090727 02:56:41< Aethaeryn> I'd rather have 2.0 only reached when (1) sprites are "complete" according to Jetryl, with possible exception on far-off projects like north-facing base frames, (2) portraits are complete, (3) the UI looks considerably different than  1.2/1.4/1.6, (4) there's some major thing like a graphics engine rewrite.
20090727 02:56:51< noy> I find much of what you write hard to believe ancestral
20090727 02:56:58< noy> :)
20090727 02:57:17< Zarel> So I'm guessing Jetrel and Jetryl are the same person? Did the guy change his name recently or something?
20090727 02:57:27< Aethaeryn> Jetryl changed his name to Jetrel recently.
20090727 02:57:28< noy> yes
20090727 02:57:38< Aethaeryn> As i've been around for a really long time, it'll take a while to adjust
20090727 02:57:40< ancestral> Personally I feel like if there were a dozen artists and musicians who wanted to contribute, talented and who understood Wesnoth, we'd be even better off
20090727 02:57:41< Aethaeryn> It'd be like if noy became ney
20090727 02:57:52< Zarel> I liked "Jetryl" better. :/
20090727 02:58:02< Aethaeryn> I did too.
20090727 02:58:15< Aethaeryn> Maybe I should become Aythayryn because y > e
20090727 02:58:21-!- Aethaeryn is now known as Aythayryn
20090727 02:58:25-!- Zarel is now known as Zaryl
20090727 02:58:29< noy> Yeah I wish I had a pony
20090727 02:58:39< noy> Thats like asking for the moon
20090727 02:58:52< Aythayryn> ancestral: Incremental improvements.
20090727 02:59:17 * Zaryl wants hotter elves :|
20090727 02:59:19< Aythayryn> The first step is getting Wesnoth's mainline "complete" and then other eras, radical campaigns, etc., could be added
20090727 02:59:31< noy> and in reality for every "talented developer that understands wesnoth" you get 5 who are untalented and don't understand, and 1 who is and doesn't.
20090727 02:59:32-!- ancestral is now known as ancestryl
20090727 02:59:39< Aythayryn> Zaryl: Well, we had a female draw them. I'm sure the male elves are attractive to women ;)
20090727 02:59:56< Aythayryn> But hot elves = fantasy stereotype
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20090727 03:00:05< ancestryl> Sure, that's bound to happen
20090727 03:00:07< noy> We have a good team right now which makes good progress on our tasks. 
20090727 03:00:14< ancestryl> I don't disagree with that
20090727 03:00:21< Zaryl> I mean, I don't mind more realistic art. I rather like them. It's just it's kind of jarring when the unit sprites are hotter than the portraits. :/
20090727 03:00:36< ancestryl> I think there's so much more possible that we don't even know
20090727 03:00:38< noy> Having more people brings serious risks when we don't need them.
20090727 03:00:44< Aythayryn> Zaryl: WINSCP
20090727 03:00:46< noy> Its a turn based strategy
20090727 03:00:51< keb> i like hot mermaids too
20090727 03:00:53< Aythayryn> Zaryl: Wesnoth is Not Soft Core Porn
20090727 03:00:54< keb> why is the Elder Mage L5 weaker than the Great Mage L4 ?
20090727 03:01:03< Zaryl> Aythayryn: And I don't see why not. ;)
20090727 03:01:05< Aythayryn> keb: 'cause he's old
20090727 03:01:10< ancestryl> keb: because I'm making a level 5 Epic Mage that's way
20090727 03:01:11< noy> its an old game type with serious limitations. 
20090727 03:01:13< Zaryl> Imagine! A whole market we're not tapping! ;)
20090727 03:01:13< ancestryl> *why
20090727 03:01:24< keb> agism :P
20090727 03:01:37< ancestryl> I don't see why that's a problem
20090727 03:01:42< Aythayryn> Zaryl: Considering the high-level mage sprites are old... I'd rather not tap that market in the portraits.
20090727 03:01:58< Aythayryn> Zaryl: We wouldn't want to promote/use certain high-powered units anymore
20090727 03:02:09< Zaryl> The high-level female mage sprites show jarring levels of skin compared to their age, though.
20090727 03:02:46< noy> It has limitations, and saying "there's so much more" is just a plea to some phantasm which probably doesn't exist.
20090727 03:02:57< ancestryl> I will admit this. I'm not a full contributor. I have no idea what it's like to be a developer or even a regular, so I'll concede that there is chemistry that is maybe hard to find
20090727 03:03:35< ancestryl> But I find it interesting you so (seemingly) quickly discount the notion that some more people could be very beneficial
20090727 03:03:38< Aythayryn> noy: Then again, high quality forks of Wesnoth that went different directions wouldn't be bad, either. It'd populate FOSS games with a new kind of genre: Wesnoth-like games :P
20090727 03:03:44< Zaryl> I'm a developer, albeit for a less popular game, and I think that Wesnoth isn't nearly popular enough that more popularity would be more bad than good.
20090727 03:03:54< Aythayryn> noy: Just like early FPS games were known as Doom clones
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20090727 03:04:00< ancestryl> And in reality, perhaps even in the last year or two that has already happened
20090727 03:04:05< noy> ...
20090727 03:04:17< noy> Again, we're a turn based strategy
20090727 03:04:21< Zaryl> I mean, sure, at some point, more popularity will just mean more spammers.
20090727 03:04:29< Zaryl> But right now, we could use some more exposure.
20090727 03:04:29< noy> this is a game type that basically has gone to the wayside
20090727 03:04:42< ancestryl> What if there were more Kittys and Lord Bobs and Tyler Johnsons
20090727 03:04:44< Zaryl> Exactly! None of the noob spammers will even participate!
20090727 03:04:45< noy> it was exceptionally popular from 1980 to about 1997 or so
20090727 03:04:52< Zaryl> And meganes!
20090727 03:04:55< noy> and then had died
20090727 03:05:05< Aythayryn> noy: Except for Civilization
20090727 03:05:11< noy> civ isn't the same game
20090727 03:05:13< Zaryl> And Chess.
20090727 03:05:26< Zaryl> Don't even _try_ to argue that chess isn't a turn-based strategy.
20090727 03:05:26< Aythayryn> noy: I realize Civ is totally different, but iirc it's technically a TBS
20090727 03:05:29< noy> I'm sure we'll see a resurgence of chess... its just around the corner. 
20090727 03:05:42< Zaryl> Go is beginning to be more popular! :D
20090727 03:05:50< Aythayryn> Zaryl: I remember playing a fantasy game that was on a chess board...
20090727 03:05:57< Aythayryn> And then you had real-time battles when the pieces fought
20090727 03:05:59< ancestryl> One place Wesnoth will be getting exposure, and it will happen, is when the iPhone version comes out.
20090727 03:06:06< noy> ... anyway, people have to realize that this game won't be much more popular. 
20090727 03:06:07< ancestryl> How much I don't know
20090727 03:06:07< noy> ...
20090727 03:06:08< Zaryl> Aythayryn: I've played "Knightmare Chess"
20090727 03:06:09< Aythayryn> Then I remember seeing my friends play a Mortal Kombat game that had a chess mode... and it was so a knock off
20090727 03:06:19< Aythayryn> Zaryl: No, it was something like xarchon or something
20090727 03:06:19< Zaryl> Which is apparently like normal chess, except plus a trading card game.
20090727 03:06:31< Zaryl> Aythayryn: I know; I'm talking about something else.
20090727 03:06:42< Zaryl> Also, you're messing up my "ae[tab]" typing. D:
20090727 03:06:44< ancestryl> Battle Chess? Alice?
20090727 03:06:45< Aythayryn> It was fun but the graphics were lacking and it seemed like it wasn't updated and kinda left incomplete...
20090727 03:06:45< noy> I'm willing to be that we're probably the most popular turn based strategy game out there, proprietary or not. 
20090727 03:07:00< Aythayryn> LIke 9/10 open source games.
20090727 03:07:02< ancestryl> noy: nah, I'd be flattered, but I don't think so
20090727 03:07:11< Aythayryn> noy: Maybe most popular, non-abandoned.
20090727 03:07:13< noy> ... name one. 
20090727 03:07:13< ancestryl> the Civ series has us beat, if that fits into the same genre
20090727 03:07:18< Aythayryn> People still play Starcraft and Age of Empires II
20090727 03:07:18< Zaryl> ancestryl: By the way, you missed an 'e'
20090727 03:07:18< noy> Civ isn't the same game
20090727 03:07:31< noy> or in the same market
20090727 03:07:32< ancestryl> Zaryl: Jetryl's name had one 'e' in it
20090727 03:07:36< noy> so please stop citing it. 
20090727 03:07:38< Zaryl> Oh, yeah.
20090727 03:07:43< noy> Starcraft isn't a TBS
20090727 03:07:52< ancestryl> noy: Final Fantasy Tactics
20090727 03:07:57< Aythayryn> noy: Just bringing up an example of old games that still have players.
20090727 03:08:07< Zaryl> You said "turn-based strategy game". You didn't say anything about "same game" or "same market"
20090727 03:08:19< noy> Tactics might be the only one, yet its still not from the same cloth. 
20090727 03:08:35< ancestryl> It's similar enough in my book
20090727 03:08:37< Aythayryn> noy: TBS wasn't my cup of tea, so to speak, until I played Wesnoth. Wesnoth simply has the "it" factor. I used to play RTS games, but stayed out of standard MP because of rushing.
20090727 03:08:51< Aythayryn> noy: Wesnoth doesn't rush you like that, and doesn't have micromanging, and so now I suck at RTS games :P
20090727 03:09:08< noy> great, you don't represent a very large segment of hte population
20090727 03:09:16< Zaryl> Aythayryn: Might I recommend you try a new RTS? I'm a developer for a FOSS RTS that's always recruiting.
20090727 03:09:38< noy> ancestryl: your argument is pointless because it blurs the issue to the point where you're not even making a point.
20090727 03:09:54< Aythayryn> Zaryl: My laptop graphics card is awful. It lags 3D on Windows and doesn't do 3D at all on Linux, which I've been using almost exclusively.
20090727 03:10:04< Zaryl> :(
20090727 03:10:07< Aythayryn> Zaryl: Besides, I'm a mapper, not a developer.
20090727 03:10:14< Aythayryn> You can only have so many maps.
20090727 03:10:17< ancestryl> noy: explain
20090727 03:10:20< noy> In reality the games that wesnoth has lineage with are the Stuff SSI did, avalon hill, and the like. 
20090727 03:10:34< Aythayryn> I used to like tiles over hexes, but Wesnoth, again converted me to Hexes. I thought hexes couldn't look good. Boy did Wesnoth change my opinion on that.
20090727 03:10:35< noy> Steel Panthers, the Generals Series, V4Victory.
20090727 03:10:53< noy> thats where its market will be
20090727 03:11:01< ancestryl> The thing is
20090727 03:11:09< ancestryl> Wesnoth is different for each person
20090727 03:11:13< noy> drawing more from outside is a difficult process that we shouldn't...
20090727 03:11:14< ancestryl> And that's what makes it so great
20090727 03:11:17< noy> wtf is that statement?
20090727 03:11:30< noy> Wow, I'll plan the future on wesnoth based on that
20090727 03:11:33< ancestryl> What Wesnoth is is going to be different
20090727 03:11:36< VurtualRuler98> I prefer letters.
20090727 03:11:38< noy> I'm sure we'll do well. 
20090727 03:11:48< Aythayryn> ancestryl: I think that most 2D and other abandonned genres will probably be best off in open source, because there's no market that's profitable but enough hobbyists and old fans: Turn Based Strategies and 2D platformers, both genres I love, among them.
20090727 03:11:53< Aythayryn> Future only in free
20090727 03:12:06< Aythayryn> But by definition, it's not profitable anymore or someone'd be doing it. 
20090727 03:12:08< VurtualRuler98> 2D games have plenty a market.
20090727 03:12:15< VurtualRuler98> They just use 3D graphics nowadays.
20090727 03:12:16< ancestryl> Aythayryn: No, the mobile phone market is boomingh
20090727 03:12:17< Aythayryn> (2D platformers aren't technically dead, but most are now 2.5D and handheld)
20090727 03:12:21< noy> Thats a good point Aythayryn 
20090727 03:12:30< Aythayryn> ancestryl: See "handheld" point :P
20090727 03:12:39< ancestryl> New mobile devices, tablets, and renewed interest in browser based games and online services
20090727 03:12:42< noy> which is what I'm getting at. We have a limited market segment. 
20090727 03:12:47< VurtualRuler98> Hey guys.
20090727 03:12:49< keb> there's a handheld wesnoth?
20090727 03:12:53< ancestryl> There will be
20090727 03:12:55< VurtualRuler98> Street fighter IV
20090727 03:13:04< VurtualRuler98> 2.5D, but it's a 2D game, on major consoles.
20090727 03:13:08< Aythayryn> VurtualRuler98: Again, 2.5D iirc.
20090727 03:13:13< VurtualRuler98> Yeah, but still.
20090727 03:13:14< Blueblaze> Aythayryn: There is a huge market for 2D platformers both on handheld devices and on console marketplaces (PS Network, XBLA)
20090727 03:13:15< Aythayryn> And fighting has been alive for a while.
20090727 03:13:19< VurtualRuler98> True 2D is uncommon because 3D looks nicer.
20090727 03:13:26< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: Most are rereleases or rehashes.
20090727 03:13:31< VurtualRuler98> Most fighting games are 3D
20090727 03:13:36< VurtualRuler98> just you fight on a 2D plane.
20090727 03:13:37< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: Super Mario Advance = Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Advance 2 = Super Mario World, etc.
20090727 03:13:44< Aythayryn> All very ancient.
20090727 03:14:02< Blueblaze> That doesn't mean there isn't a market
20090727 03:14:07< noy> I love when people try to make points about something which has nothing to do with the issues at hand. 
20090727 03:14:08< ancestryl> Blueblaze is right
20090727 03:14:10< VurtualRuler98> It's just that most 2D games have 3D graphics.
20090727 03:14:21< VurtualRuler98> Wesnoth with 3D graphics WOULD look nicer, wouldn't it?
20090727 03:14:22< ancestryl> noy: there's like 3 different conversations going on
20090727 03:14:22< Aythayryn> VurtualRuler98: Not true that 3D looks nicer. Some Super Nintendo games look better than N64 games. Early 3D doesn't age well.
20090727 03:14:35< VurtualRuler98> currrent 3D.
20090727 03:14:40< Aythayryn> VurtualRuler98: Wesnoth 2.5D might look better, because it would be less maintenence in the animations.
20090727 03:14:47< Aythayryn> I would be opposed to Wesnoth true 3D
20090727 03:14:54< Aythayryn> I like its distinct look
20090727 03:14:56< ancestryl> Sega is releasing their old software onto the iPhone app store
20090727 03:15:03< ancestryl> in bits anyway
20090727 03:15:14< noy> There are, but some people are trying to make a point about 2D games continued popularity, when in reality it has nothing to do with popularity of wesnoth. 
20090727 03:15:19< Blueblaze> ancestryl: unfortunately most of it sucks
20090727 03:15:22< noy> or its genre, which is quite dead. 
20090727 03:15:30< ancestryl> Blueblaze: there's some truth there, perhaps
20090727 03:15:39< Aythayryn> Blueblaze, ancestryl: Again rehashing old games. Bargin bin stuff made even more bargin because of online distribution. They do no or almost no extra developing.
20090727 03:15:43< noy> Basically none of the major game publishing houses exists.
20090727 03:15:54< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: few exceptions, like a new 2D Mega Man game done in NES style.
20090727 03:16:02< ancestryl> They're making fewer games hoping to have higher quality, fewer bugs
20090727 03:16:03< keb> i dunno if turn-based 3d would work
20090727 03:16:05< Aythayryn> Mega Man is one of the few NES games that actually looks good. SNES 2D is far better.
20090727 03:16:09< Blueblaze> Aythayryn: There are several new Mario games on DS
20090727 03:16:36< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: Yes. Nintendo is an exception to the rule. There's even one on the Wii. But they really look like rehashed SMW
20090727 03:16:37< ancestryl> There's still a push for indie developers
20090727 03:16:41< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: And again, 2.5D
20090727 03:16:44< noy> the only people offering games anymore in turn based strategies of this type are indie producers
20090727 03:16:50< Blueblaze> Aythayryn: 2.5D is in your mind
20090727 03:16:53< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: Most 2D games are realms of hobbists, and open source is best.
20090727 03:16:55< Blueblaze> 2D = 2.5D with cooler graphics
20090727 03:17:04< ancestryl> There are success stories
20090727 03:17:09< Blueblaze> Rolando
20090727 03:17:39< noy> and when I say indie producers, they are basically small scale guys who do it on the side
20090727 03:17:44< keb> i dont compare wesnoth with other games, i just love it as is
20090727 03:17:47< noy> That and Vassal
20090727 03:17:55< krotop> indie = independant ?
20090727 03:17:56< ancestryl> Aquaria was made by two guys, and they hired a voice actor. Incredible game
20090727 03:17:59< noy> keb; probably the best attitude to have. 
20090727 03:18:03< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: By and large, 3D and new genres (mostly some kind of shooter on consoles, and some kind of MMO on PCs, though also shooters) has taken over the market.
20090727 03:18:10< ancestryl> *actress
20090727 03:18:11< noy> ancestryl: great, that has nothing to do with us. 
20090727 03:18:18< ancestryl> No but they're an indie developer
20090727 03:18:21< Aythayryn> Blueblaze: 2D is a niche market, mostly rereleases, but I am aware of New Super Mario Bros.
20090727 03:18:31< ancestryl> Pushing the 2D market, in a way
20090727 03:18:34< Aythayryn> I love Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario World.
20090727 03:18:40< Blueblaze> who cares, just play a game you like and go away
20090727 03:18:46 * Blueblaze goes to do that
20090727 03:18:48< Aythayryn> If I could code I'd make a game with levels as fun as World but suits as fun as All-Stars
20090727 03:19:01< Aythayryn> (Bros. 3 in particular)
20090727 03:19:42< Aythayryn> I need to buy Castlevania off of Xbox Online Arcade...
20090727 03:19:57< VurtualRuler98> 2D is 3D without a D.
20090727 03:19:58< Aythayryn> For some reason, I just never played it, but I just *know* I'll like it.
20090727 03:20:20-!- anttil [n=antti@a88-114-44-252.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090727 03:20:54< Aythayryn> I would love an 2D or 2.5D RPG with strict KISS rules like Wesnoth.
20090727 03:21:03< Aythayryn> Kind of like the Wesnoth RPG add-ons, but real time.
20090727 03:21:11< noy> krotop: http://www.kamikazewargames.com/
20090727 03:21:12< Aythayryn> Almost every RPG out there is really complex and time consuming.
20090727 03:21:19-!- Aythayryn is now known as Aethaeryn
20090727 03:21:24< Aethaeryn> and this nick is really starting to get on my nerves
20090727 03:21:35< Aethaeryn> Looks like I'm summoning Cthulu or something
20090727 03:21:59< VurtualRuler98> ...
20090727 03:22:01< VurtualRuler98> Yeah.
20090727 03:22:15< VurtualRuler98> 2D aint a niche market though.
20090727 03:22:21< krotop> thanks noy
20090727 03:22:32< noy> krotop: by the way, they are french I think
20090727 03:23:46< VurtualRuler98> 2D is just a style mostly used by games sequelling older ones.
20090727 03:23:47-!- conor [n=conor@c-67-180-158-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
20090727 03:23:54< VurtualRuler98> and arcade-style ones.
20090727 03:23:59< Aethaeryn> Anyone here have 1.7.2 and want to give some advice on an almost-ready map?
20090727 03:24:04< VurtualRuler98> Since a brand new game concept is rare.
20090727 03:24:18< Aethaeryn> And almost-ready for its size is an interesting development since it was blank this morning
20090727 03:25:32< VurtualRuler98> just give me a pic of it all and I'll be as pessimistic as possible.
20090727 03:26:32< Aethaeryn> It's a pretty big map.
20090727 03:26:40< Aethaeryn> Oh, new game concept, lol. :P
20090727 03:27:59< VurtualRuler98> Nothing 512kbit can't handle.
20090727 03:28:19-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@131.181.102.53] has joined #wesnoth
20090727 03:29:12< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: I really don't want to shrink my map small enough to fit in a screenshot. It's up-down long, not left-right long, so it wouldn't fit neatly in one screen
20090727 03:29:25< VurtualRuler98> I can zoom out.
20090727 03:29:37< VurtualRuler98> Just combine various screenshots into one big image.
20090727 03:29:46< Aethaeryn> Can't see any detail
20090727 03:29:59< VurtualRuler98> then I zoom in 100%
20090727 03:30:00< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: Just go on the 1.7.2 server? It's a lot easier to just join a dummy game
20090727 03:30:03< VurtualRuler98> and look, I can scroll around on a picture.
20090727 03:30:04< Aethaeryn> That's what I was doing for Turuk
20090727 03:30:06< krotop> hehe, their group is completly dematerialized, there's not even an address to join them, other than electronically
20090727 03:30:08< VurtualRuler98> I don't have 1.7.2 <_<
20090727 03:30:12< Soliton> or just hit the screenshot button..
20090727 03:30:41< Aethaeryn> The map is 34x50 and that's bigger than it sounds
20090727 03:30:45< Blueblaze> Soliton: Your computer has a screenshot button? whoa
20090727 03:31:38< Soliton> wesnoth has one, too.
20090727 03:32:09-!- ancestryl is now known as ancestral
20090727 03:32:09< Blueblaze> This blantaly obvious technology blows my mind
20090727 03:32:52< ancestral> Blueblaze: My trackpad is a button!
20090727 03:33:20< Blueblaze> blatantly :z
20090727 03:34:04< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Do you have 1.7?
20090727 03:34:12< ancestral> Yeah
20090727 03:34:16< Aethaeryn> Good.
20090727 03:34:24< ancestral> You want me to look at it?
20090727 03:34:37< Aethaeryn> If even you didn't I would've made it my full-time (unpaid) job to make enough content to persuade people to join 1.7
20090727 03:34:51< ancestral> I have 1.6 and 1.7
20090727 03:35:05< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20090727 03:35:09< Aethaeryn> I have them both too
20090727 03:35:17< ancestral> OMG we have so much in common
20090727 03:35:25< ancestral> let's be friends!
20090727 03:35:27< Aethaeryn> I also have an SVN copy.
20090727 03:35:30< Aethaeryn> :P
20090727 03:35:40< ancestral> SVN?? liek omg shut up
20090727 03:37:18< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Want to take a look? I made it with some of Turuk's advice this morning and afternoon after last night's game on my old fortress
20090727 03:37:43< ancestral> "the bridge in the middle favors the defender!" ;-P
20090727 03:37:46< Aethaeryn> Let me just put it this way: I think I'm a better mapper now than I was when I made Fortress Assault :P
20090727 03:37:48< ancestral> Sure
20090727 03:38:04< Aethaeryn> This game would take forever though
20090727 03:38:06< Aethaeryn> Forever and a day
20090727 03:38:14< Aethaeryn> On 1.7 for a dummy game
20090727 03:38:33< Aethaeryn> Unless I arrange it on IRC and persuade 5 people, I doubt I'd be able to find 5
20090727 03:39:19< Aethaeryn> ancestral: dummy game made
20090727 03:39:36< ancestral> Simultaneous turns… some day…
20090727 03:39:38< ancestral> k hang on
20090727 03:40:33< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Simultaneous turns and a graphics engine rewrite for minor improvements that'd help people like Jetrel... That'd be enough for 2.0 imo
20090727 03:40:47-!- krotop [n=christop@smj33-1-82-233-64-163.fbx.proxad.net] has quit []
20090727 03:40:49< Aethaeryn> (Simultaneous same-team, btw)
20090727 03:40:53< ancestral> right
20090727 03:40:56< ancestral> same team
20090727 03:41:16< Blueblaze> or everyone SImultaneous
20090727 03:41:17< Blueblaze> wait
20090727 03:41:25< Blueblaze> lets convert Wesnoth to a RTS
20090727 03:41:31< ancestral> if everyone is on the same team they could
20090727 03:41:44< VurtualRuler98> YEEEAH
20090727 03:41:46< VurtualRuler98> I want that.
20090727 03:41:49< VurtualRuler98> TA: Wesnoth
20090727 03:42:12< Turuk> Wait, no Wesnoth FPS?
20090727 03:42:14< Aethaeryn> ancestral: and you think?
20090727 03:42:25< Aethaeryn> Turuk: Elvish Marksman: The Game
20090727 03:42:26< ancestral> aethaeryn: client crashed
20090727 03:42:31< ancestral> not your game though
20090727 03:42:34< Aethaeryn> oh
20090727 03:42:48< Aethaeryn> Turuk: if you want to see the final pre-WML, you can join.
20090727 03:42:54< Aethaeryn> It's technically not pre-WML since I did the core WML
20090727 03:42:58< Turuk> will in a minute, running to get some grub
20090727 03:43:00< Aethaeryn> Need to code the faction and the traps.
20090727 03:43:43< Aethaeryn> The gold bonuses and extra units (or more unit types recruitable) for defenders will be triggered by *attacker* movement, not defender, so defender doesn't rush back just to get the bonus
20090727 03:43:59< Aethaeryn> That way if you let them cross the bonus points by retreating far, you've just surrendered half of your villages :P
20090727 03:44:20< VurtualRuler98> There are only 3 things I want to see in wesnoth
20090727 03:47:14< VurtualRuler98> Tile improvements(a trap placed by a unit, that hurts someone?),  someone making ranged attacks just to do so(they're not impossible, people), and half-decent documentation.
20090727 03:47:55< Soliton> they're all there.
20090727 03:48:15< VurtualRuler98> revised wants
20090727 03:48:39< VurtualRuler98> publicly known tile improvements, publicly known ranged attacks, and decent documentatino.
20090727 03:49:46< Soliton> "tile improvements" are not going to be part of the core game rules if that's what you mean.
20090727 03:49:57< VurtualRuler98> Doesn't have to be used.
20090727 03:50:29< VurtualRuler98> But actually having possible without some weird shoving-in, or map-specifics, is good enough for me.
20090727 03:50:53< Soliton> that makes no sense.
20090727 03:51:12< VurtualRuler98> Then I changed the topic,t here.
20090727 03:54:31< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: Traps exist multiple places in user made content.
20090727 03:54:36< ancestral> Well the biggest wish I have is simultaneous sides, but that would require a lot of work I'm sure, no doubt
20090727 03:54:39< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: Ranged attacks? There's a Ranged Era that does just that.
20090727 03:54:46< VurtualRuler98> Well then.
20090727 03:54:46< ancestral> So I'm not holding my breath hehe
20090727 03:55:00-!- coyo [n=alex@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["May the Coyoes cook you some hot chili some day!"]
20090727 03:55:10< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: Half-decent documentation? That's what the wiki's for. It's up to the Writer's Forum and esr to write enough canon... And I think Turuk is collecting data for the Races sections I wrote up way back for 1.4?
20090727 03:55:42< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Simultaneous sides would be awesome. It's probably the one frequently-suggested-idea I still stand behind 100%.
20090727 03:55:58< Aethaeryn> Maybe if I ever get nearly as good with C++ as mapping I'd try my hand at it.
20090727 03:55:58< ancestral> There's actually a lot of writing that's been happening since the Writer's forum was established
20090727 03:56:05< Aethaeryn> Yes, I know.
20090727 03:56:24< Aethaeryn> I'm working mostly on my own canon, but it often includes discussions with esr in #Wesnoth-umc-dev over things like calenders.
20090727 03:56:37< Aethaeryn> My own add-on's canon, I mean.
20090727 03:57:07< Aethaeryn> Think Imperial Era-like philosophy (campaigns + extensive storyline beheind the era), but with guns... and spaceships :P
20090727 03:57:21< ancestral> Aethaeryn: I put it out there to put it out there. https://gna.org/bugs/?13642
20090727 03:57:32< VurtualRuler98> I might make a modern war mod sometime.
20090727 03:58:24< Turuk> oh good, more randomness to sit around
20090727 03:58:43< VurtualRuler98> I'm scared now.
20090727 03:58:53< VurtualRuler98> I don't feel like everyone here is nerdier than I am anymore.
20090727 03:59:06< Aethaeryn> Eh, I'm not actually that nerdy.
20090727 03:59:10< Aethaeryn> I have standards.
20090727 03:59:22< VurtualRuler98> I can even look at any anime and not be creeped out.
20090727 03:59:22< Aethaeryn> I will never go to something like Comicon. I will never wear lame costumes (off of Halloween)
20090727 03:59:26< VurtualRuler98> What is happeniiiing.
20090727 03:59:55< Aethaeryn> I will not look at drawn anime-porn like my roommate did. That kid was really creepy. He'll probably wind up being a serial killer.
20090727 04:00:07< VurtualRuler98> It's called hentai.
20090727 04:00:08< Aethaeryn> Therefore, I am not a "nerd" - if I am, then I'm not a "geek"
20090727 04:00:19< VurtualRuler98> I also have defense as to why I can know that safely
20090727 04:00:33< VurtualRuler98> A guy I know is addicted, okay?
20090727 04:00:42< Aethaeryn> Oh, I know too many things from my roommate... Also addicted, actually.
20090727 04:01:11< Aethaeryn> He kept getting a critical blue-screen-causing virus that threatened his comp's stability and required obscure anti-virus to "remove"
20090727 04:01:18< Aethaeryn> And he kept going back to the same sites anyway.
20090727 04:01:20< VurtualRuler98> Go fix it
20090727 04:01:24< VurtualRuler98> It's the right thing to do
20090727 04:01:40< VurtualRuler98> Except this guy I know probably outnerds this network combined.
20090727 04:01:41< Aethaeryn> I even recommended a dualboot with Ubuntu so when he looks at his stuff at least he wouldn't screw up his computer, but he's just stupid.
20090727 04:01:54< Aethaeryn> He is a smart-stupid kind of person.
20090727 04:02:20< Aethaeryn> One of those people who because they have a high IQ and did well in middle school is incredibly lazy and does really weird/stupid tihngs.
20090727 04:02:42< VurtualRuler98> He's a master of RTS and TBS, good at art and architecture, learns things quickly, pretty good at FPSes, creative, friendly(as you can get for someone like him), pretty normal
20090727 04:02:43< Aethaeryn> No surprise, he failed out after literally spending all his time watching anime and looking at hentai
20090727 04:03:09< Aethaeryn> (I did not choose my roommate, he was random. Now I'll choose my roommates from now on, tyvm)
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20090727 04:22:55< Blueblaze> Hey!
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20090727 04:29:13< Appleman1234> Hi Blueblaze 
20090727 04:29:52< Blueblaze> Hi Appleman1234!
20090727 04:41:44< Aethaeryn> ancestral, Turuk: I just finished placing every single village in the game, except one... So we can either try to put together a playtest now with Knalgans as p1 & p2 or wait possibly a further 30 min or so for me to try to do the gates/bridges
20090727 04:42:07< Aethaeryn> Your choices since I can't play a game without people on IRC, so your preference counts a lot
20090727 04:42:14< Turuk> I can wait, no worries
20090727 04:42:25< Aethaeryn> Alright, now where's zookeeper when you need him? :P
20090727 04:42:33< shadowmaster> sleeping.
20090727 04:42:44< shadowmaster> he lives in Finland, you know
20090727 04:42:46< VurtualRuler98> Wait, what exactly is this ne wgameplays?
20090727 04:45:40< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: New map/
20090727 04:45:54< VurtualRuler98> Yoru map
20090727 04:45:56< VurtualRuler98> your map*
20090727 04:46:00< Aethaeryn> Half the map is a cave maze-like fortress. Half is an outside skirmish
20090727 04:46:31< Aethaeryn> The dwarves are at a numerical disadvantage, but start with the vast majority of the villages, and get bonuses as the enemy advances (eventually). They can also manipulate certain tunnel entrances with runes.
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20090727 04:49:55< VurtualRuler98> oh come on
20090727 04:50:10< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: ?
20090727 04:50:11< VurtualRuler98> It isn't going to be some cheap "move here to change a door" thing?
20090727 04:50:16< VurtualRuler98> Riight?
20090727 04:50:34< Aethaeryn> Not quite.
20090727 04:50:38< VurtualRuler98> How does it work then?
20090727 04:50:50< Aethaeryn> You need to move to a rune, right click, and then it costs the unit all of its movement
20090727 04:51:13< Aethaeryn> there are a handful of spots, but strategic... It turns certain walls to castles or castles to walls
20090727 04:51:17< VurtualRuler98> You could make a button too.
20090727 04:51:27< Aethaeryn> Button?
20090727 04:51:46< Aethaeryn> I would prefer that a strategically powerful move incapacitate one of your units for a turn.]
20090727 04:51:47< VurtualRuler98> Have a hex next to the hex the unit moves to.
20090727 04:52:01< VurtualRuler98> Solid, if you click it, and the standing spot is occupied, it does the same thing.
20090727 04:52:04< VurtualRuler98> No right click, easier to do.
20090727 04:52:11< Aethaeryn> Nah... Not the way it is designed.
20090727 04:52:12< VurtualRuler98> Have both and it'll be a bit more polished feel.
20090727 04:52:25< Aethaeryn> If you see the map, you're affecting gates far away
20090727 04:52:31< Aethaeryn> For sake of traps or side-paths
20090727 04:56:15< Aethaeryn> Your idea is nice, it's just not the way the map works.
20090727 04:56:22< Aethaeryn> You'll see, if you had 1.7.2 :P
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20090727 05:33:47< conor> sup ppl
20090727 05:34:09< Blueblaze> hi conor
20090727 05:34:23< conor> Blueblaze wanna play a game?
20090727 05:34:49< Blueblaze> What type of game did you have in mind?
20090727 05:35:01< conor> hmmmm, well it involves peanut butter....
20090727 05:35:05< conor> no im just kidding
20090727 05:35:06< conor> lol
20090727 05:35:20< Blueblaze> you bring the peanut butter
20090727 05:35:22< Blueblaze> I'll bring the bananas
20090727 05:35:31< Blueblaze> speaking of which, I'm gonna make me a banana split
20090727 05:35:31< conor> alright nice
20090727 05:35:38< conor> well think of a game
20090727 05:35:41< conor> while you are doing it
20090727 05:36:47< Blueblaze> I want to play Conquest
20090727 05:36:51< Blueblaze> but that is such a long game
20090727 05:37:23< ancestral> Simultaneous turns! :P
20090727 05:37:29< ancestral> Actually that wouldn't work
20090727 05:37:46< ancestral> It would be a race to the nearest village
20090727 05:38:29< ancestral> Blueblaze: If you could improve upon the AI it could be awesome, but I think programming the AI would be painful
20090727 05:39:14< conor> why dont more things stack in wesnoth...
20090727 05:39:22< conor> like bonuses
20090727 05:39:38< ancestral> Probably balancing
20090727 05:39:39< conor> that would be cool, if you could have an army of white mages, and like one warrior
20090727 05:39:45< Blueblaze> ancestral: I could get the AI to work fine, its just my computer is too slow to deal with the AI
20090727 05:39:48< Blueblaze> so I don't want to waste my time
20090727 05:39:51< conor> and he just gets constantly healed
20090727 05:40:17< conor> Blueblaze i dont see a banana split in your hand...
20090727 05:40:28< Blueblaze> conor: its on the way
20090727 05:40:35< conor> oh
20090727 05:40:39< conor> so your NOT making it?
20090727 05:40:48< Blueblaze> nope
20090727 05:40:49< Blueblaze> lol
20090727 05:40:55< conor> lol, oh
20090727 05:41:03< conor> well i guess thats what women are for
20090727 05:41:13< VurtualRuler98> There are also other uses.
20090727 05:41:39< conor> VurtualRuler98: pray tell?
20090727 05:41:45< conor> VurtualRuler98: i cant think of any
20090727 05:42:01< VurtualRuler98> I mean, you can't do it without women.
20090727 05:42:08< conor> VurtualRuler98: do what exactly?
20090727 05:42:12< ancestral> it?
20090727 05:42:16< ancestral> Well
20090727 05:42:16< VurtualRuler98> *cough*
20090727 05:42:26< conor> you cant cough without women?
20090727 05:42:28< VurtualRuler98> I'm not even going to try.
20090727 05:42:30< conor> i dont understand
20090727 05:42:42< conor> ...
20090727 05:42:45< ancestral> making babies? (confused)
20090727 05:42:51< VurtualRuler98> Close enough.
20090727 05:43:00< conor> but... thats the storks job
20090727 05:43:04< Blueblaze> conor: lets play Isars
20090727 05:43:05< conor> you dont need women for that
20090727 05:43:11< conor> Blueblaze: oh GOD no 
20090727 05:43:21< VurtualRuler98> Who are you going to send to tell them?
20090727 05:43:24< ancestral> You don't need women to adopt
20090727 05:43:31< VurtualRuler98> That's not making though.
20090727 05:43:36< VurtualRuler98> That's just transfering.
20090727 05:43:41< ancestral> True
20090727 05:43:46< VurtualRuler98> Which, if you aren't conor, is just not the same.
20090727 05:44:01< conor> I just got even more confused lol
20090727 05:44:19< VurtualRuler98> If there was a ctcp-age this would be so much easier right now.
20090727 05:44:22< Blueblaze> conor: playing Isars with or without you
20090727 05:44:35< conor> fine fine fine
20090727 05:45:18< VurtualRuler98> They should use it as free energy.
20090727 05:45:24< VurtualRuler98> Because all you ever do is keep moving from keep to keep.
20090727 05:46:22< Blueblaze> conor: accident
20090727 05:46:24< Blueblaze> no era
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20090727 07:16:14< Bilbo_Baggins> I downloaded brotherhood of light, but what does it do?  I do not see it in the campaigns...
20090727 07:16:57< Blueblaze> It is in the scenario list
20090727 07:17:04< Bilbo_Baggins> ty
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20090727 07:21:17< Aethaeryn> Damn. Debugging WML is awful.
20090727 07:21:31< Aethaeryn> Simplest concepts, but it's taking a wihle
20090727 07:21:32< Aethaeryn> *while
20090727 07:22:19< Aethaeryn> It doesn't help that it's late and I'm making simple typos every time
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20090727 07:25:55< Bilbo_Baggins> I'll have to play it later, maybe see if I can find 3 people I know who would want to start playing Wesnoth and play BoL.. That was pretty neat, though.  =D
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20090727 07:28:32< Aethaeryn> Blueblaze: good news, 382 lines. I'll probably easily pass 500
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20090727 08:14:03< Bilbo_Baggins> This is annoying, I'm on the second scenerio of Sceptre of Life (Poloticians Blunder) and I cannot even get to turn 5.. :/
20090727 08:17:00< Blueblaze> Are you playing on the easiest mode?
20090727 08:17:32< Bilbo_Baggins> I figured it out.  I didn't understand what hex constituted as a keep.  LOL
20090727 08:17:47< Bilbo_Baggins> Plus I cannot recruit, but had to figure out about recall.  =D
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20090727 08:21:40< Bilbo_Baggins> Can a medic heal troops?
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20090727 08:35:56< Bilbo_Baggins> I like the healing through osmosis setup.  =)
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20090727 10:18:58< Ivanovic> moin
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20090727 15:27:49< Soliton> Ken_Oh: starting a new wesband game. anything new/cool that needs testing?
20090727 15:29:39< Soliton> ah well, attempt to deserialize empty unit on going down the dungeon...
20090727 15:44:41< Soliton> Ken_Oh: that's the WML that triggered the error: http://nopaste.com/p/a5Yc3pPVeb
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20090727 16:54:36< Soliton> Ken_Oh: made it so you get the config shown with the error now. will be in the next version.
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20090727 17:34:22< Ken_Oh> thnx Sol
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20090727 17:35:11< Soliton> Ken_Oh: so, i'm trying to debug that problem.
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20090727 17:35:34< Soliton> Ken_Oh: what is the idea behind the "Skeleton_Archer=Skeleton Archer" entries in [theme]s?
20090727 17:36:02< Soliton> Ken_Oh: why not write the proper unit ids in the group keys directly?
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20090727 17:36:37< Ken_Oh> Exasperation did that. Let me find the rationale.
20090727 17:37:22< Ken_Oh> But your problem before, just to make sure, you're not using the Mod RPG era anymore, right?
20090727 17:37:50< Soliton> yes, i'm not.
20090727 17:38:20< Soliton> Ken_Oh: for debugging i suggest putting some debug keys inside the [unit] from the GENERATE_MOB macro.
20090727 17:38:46< Soliton> like:
20090727 17:38:47< Soliton> debug_mob_theme=$mob_theme
20090727 17:38:47< Soliton> debug_mob_type=$mob_type$
20090727 17:39:26< Soliton> of course that only makes sense once you get the config shown with the error.
20090727 17:40:26< Soliton> in my case the problem was that $mob_type was empty.
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20090727 17:41:58< Soliton> maybe also something like: debug_theme=$theme[$mob_theme].id
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20090727 17:42:17< Soliton> though that's easy enough to look up.
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20090727 17:44:37< Ken_Oh> OK, what happened was variables as comma-separated lists, with the result chosen at random don't like spaces. 
20090727 17:45:43< Soliton> ok, quoting did not help i suspect?
20090727 17:45:45< Ken_Oh> enemy0=Troll,Mudcrawler,Thug and then taking $enemy0 worked fine, but throwing a Vampire Bat in there caused problems. that's why the layer.
20090727 17:45:52< Soliton> where is the bug report about it? ;-)
20090727 17:46:18< Ken_Oh> Don't know on both accounts. That was Exasperations division (I'm big on bug reporting, he's apparently less so).
20090727 17:46:50< Soliton> well, that's a really annoying layer if indirection there...
20090727 17:47:07< zookeeper> sounds odd
20090727 17:47:31< Soliton> of course it's good to find a workaround but.. that just has to bug you.
20090727 17:47:57< Ken_Oh> it has caused its fair share of errors, but it works
20090727 17:49:16 * Soliton adds "debug_mob_class=$mob_class" and tries again...
20090727 17:50:25< Soliton> bah, now it worked. :-P
20090727 17:50:46< Ken_Oh> yeah, i've actually not had any errors like that reported in quite some time
20090727 17:51:10< Soliton> well, first time i tried it.. guess i'm good at that.
20090727 17:51:59< Soliton> there has to be some mob_class missing in some theme, i guess.
20090727 17:53:18< Ken_Oh> something early on too
20090727 17:54:45< Soliton> well, the one time i got the error with some debugging it was in theme 1, ie. outlaws.
20090727 17:55:16< Soliton> err, there are some weird {} there.
20090727 17:55:28< Soliton> that doesn't look right.
20090727 17:56:02< zookeeper> unless they're the X2 etc stuff
20090727 17:56:35< Soliton> ok, maybe that is proper actually.
20090727 17:57:00< Ken_Oh> yeah, just a macro
20090727 17:57:01< Soliton> that's to duplicate entries.
20090727 17:57:04< Soliton> i see.
20090727 18:01:12< Soliton> bah, annoying that i can't reproduce now with proper debugging.
20090727 18:02:05< Unnheulu> VurtualRuler98: you'll be happy, i just got rly bored and started playing runescape :/
20090727 18:02:21< Unnheulu> first time in months
20090727 18:02:22< Soliton> anyhow as i said i suggest adding some debug keys in the GENERATE_MOB macro for future errors like:
20090727 18:02:26< Soliton> debug_mob_class=$mob_class
20090727 18:02:26< Soliton> debug_mob_level=$mob_level
20090727 18:02:26< Soliton> debug_mob_theme=$mob_theme
20090727 18:02:26< Soliton> debug_mob_type=$mob_type
20090727 18:02:43< Soliton> that should give all the info need afaict.
20090727 18:04:02< Soliton> alternatively of course there could be checks for empty variables and some fallback handling. atm this mob generating looks pretty fragile to me.
20090727 18:04:36< Soliton> and atm you have no idea what's wrong when an error happens.
20090727 18:05:29< Ken_Oh> yeah, makes sense. will do both of those. thanks for the tips.
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20090727 19:11:18< Soliton> Ken_Oh: why not activate the up to town and down to next dungeon level menu options anywhere when the level is cleared? now you still have to run through the whole dungeon.
20090727 19:12:28< Soliton> infact i'd only activate both options _only_ then.
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20090727 19:14:18< blarumyrran> uh, forcing the player to kill everybody?
20090727 19:15:15< Soliton> otherwise you allow abuse by ending the level whenever things get tough.
20090727 19:15:25< Aethaeryn> Anyone want to play my new 5p map for 1.7.2?
20090727 19:16:01< Soliton> Aethaeryn: i'd play an attacker.
20090727 19:16:08< Aethaeryn> Okay, good.
20090727 19:16:38< Ken_Oh> well, i was planning on letting players sacrifice exp for safety, but the blanket activation on clear sounds good
20090727 19:16:42< Aethaeryn> It may take a bit to get started because Turuk said he'd play, but no way I'd be able to arrange a game *not* in advance for the dead 1.7 server
20090727 19:16:48< Soliton> infact, i'd even rather like to play all attackers. :-P
20090727 19:17:09< Aethaeryn> Some people may get to play multiple sides, depends on how many we get :P
20090727 19:17:36< Aethaeryn> If either blarumyrran or Ken_Oh plays, that'd probably be enough for a full game.
20090727 19:17:53< Soliton> Ken_Oh: infact that blanket activation was my main point of having it as a menu option. ;-)
20090727 19:18:42< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh: I liked wesband, btw. Was fun, but got boring/repetitive with one unit and two henchmen. It's definitely one of those things that's better in MP.
20090727 19:18:57< Aethaeryn> It's actually a little too easy the first four-five dungeons with just one elf lord guy
20090727 19:19:04< Aethaeryn> Decent melee, good survivability, decent magic.
20090727 19:19:33< Aethaeryn> Block with a lvled up thug and have a lvled up red mage, and you have something that can (slowly) clear any dungeon, or at least, for a while.
20090727 19:19:53< Ken_Oh> yeah, a lot needs to go in to make it interesting
20090727 19:19:56< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh: Maybe a "boss" monster that's stronger than the others in the dungeon?
20090727 19:20:08< Aethaeryn> Which you will probably have to NOT kill, or use teamwork to kill.
20090727 19:20:23< Aethaeryn> i.e. a fire dragon or lich
20090727 19:20:29< Ken_Oh> well, the monsters with items are the boss monsters. guess they're not hard enough then
20090727 19:20:47< Aethaeryn> Yeah, just didn't seem hard enough if I could breeze through with myself and two henchmen
20090727 19:21:04< Aethaeryn> Maybe the elf lord guy is just overpowered because he's basically a wizard with decent melee and good survivability
20090727 19:21:08< Aethaeryn> A wizard who can tank :P
20090727 19:21:12< Ken_Oh> right
20090727 19:21:23< Aethaeryn> I looked long and hard on that list to find the best solo char
20090727 19:21:53< Ken_Oh> that and dwarf runecrafter are probably the best (single or solo)
20090727 19:22:09< Ken_Oh> strong magic users
20090727 19:22:14< Ken_Oh> that can also fight
20090727 19:22:23< Aethaeryn> Soliton: I made the game on the 1.7.2 server
20090727 19:22:28< Soliton> anything with the multiattack ranged ability owns all.
20090727 19:22:32< Aethaeryn> ready for people to join
20090727 19:22:49< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh: probably, but I prefer elves over dwarves when it comes to magic.
20090727 19:22:55< Soliton> you can kill everything in sight in one turn once you're a bit advanced.
20090727 19:23:07< Aethaeryn> When I think Dwarf in RPG (and I've played them a few times in Wesnoth RPGs) I think melee/HP specialist who soaks in all the damage for the team
20090727 19:24:26< Aethaeryn> blarumyrran: Want to play?
20090727 19:24:44< blarumyrran> ok
20090727 19:24:53< blarumyrran> 1.6?
20090727 19:24:55< Aethaeryn> 1.7.2
20090727 19:25:02< blarumyrran> k
20090727 19:25:16< Aethaeryn> It right now only has a few things 1.7-exclusive (terrains I like), but it will eventually become more elaborate every time I find issues
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20090727 19:25:37< Aethaeryn> It's easier to do things on development, so I can use the latest tricks (like giving Dwarves the Dwarvish Scout, I'll probably add that eventually)
20090727 19:25:49< blarumyrran> probably, but I prefer anything over elves when it comes to anything.
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20090727 19:31:39< Aethaeryn> Turuk: ready?
20090727 19:31:48< Turuk> yup[
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20090727 19:47:13< Turuk> is it still green's turn?
20090727 19:47:23< Turuk> ah, there we go
20090727 19:47:39< Soliton> yes, had to think a bit.
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20090727 20:33:54< idiota1> hello, does anyone know where auto-replays are saved on Macintosh computers?
20090727 20:35:00< idiota1> in Windows, it's easy to find, but on Mac, it's not that easy... i tried searching for replays and i was never successful, although it's there for sure because I can find them in Wesnoth app.
20090727 20:35:27< zookeeper> try http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/EditingWesnoth#Where_is_my_user_data_directory.3F
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20090727 20:51:20< idiota1> thanks zookeeper, i'll look into it
20090727 21:03:49< Turuk> still on blue?
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20090727 22:58:04< Aethaeryn> Anyone want to play a game on my new (1.7.2) map?
20090727 22:58:25< Aethaeryn> fun gaurunteed or your money back.
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 28 00:00:33 2009