--- Log opened Tue Aug 11 00:00:15 2009
--- Day changed Tue Aug 11 2009
20090811 00:00:15< AI0867> wesbot: log 37350
20090811 00:00:16< wesbot> ai0867 * r37350 : Remove [stoned]-&gt;[petrified] compatibility hack. Do not bump min_savegame.
20090811 00:00:19< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=37350
20090811 00:01:11< AI0867> mordante: reason for the removing is that it was scheduled to, it was only savegame compatibility
20090811 00:03:31< AI0867> reason for not bumping min_savegame was that the savegame format was not changed (the change only stopped old [petrified] tags from being recognised) and wouldn't cause wesnoth to crash or otherwise malfunction
20090811 00:04:33< AI0867> corn: here now
20090811 00:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 69 bugs, 239 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090811 00:21:20< boucman> hey all
20090811 00:22:03< boucman> wesbot: seen Crab_
20090811 00:22:03< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick Crab_ 10m 9s ago they left with the message: "Leaving."
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20090811 01:51:53< CIA-62> jetryl * r37664 /trunk/data/core/images/units/drakes/ (41 files): Added new frames for the burner; to avoid duplicating efforts, there's no WML at present.
20090811 02:07:55< corn> AI0867: I don't really need it anymore because I hacked up my own wml parser in python, but I was wondering if your parser was done
20090811 02:08:20< AI0867> wmlparser isn't mine, I'm just the most recent to actually work with it
20090811 02:08:58< corn> oh
20090811 02:09:35< corn> 1. is it in a usable state? 2. can I use it in an environment where things need to be parsed quickly
20090811 02:10:16< AI0867> anyway, it creates an object tree similar to the one wesnoth uses
20090811 02:10:30< corn> it is ok if you don't know, I will test sometime after gsoc
20090811 02:10:34< corn> ok
20090811 02:10:55< AI0867> it, like the wesnoth parsers, parses an entire file tree and it can take quite a while to do so
20090811 02:11:02< AI0867> s/parsers/parser/
20090811 02:11:44< AI0867> so it probably isn't the tool you're looking for
20090811 02:12:04< corn> Rhonda: shell access would be good, and mod_proxy needs to be set up on apache to forward a turbogears (python application framework) cherrypy http server to a url on port 80
20090811 02:12:46< corn> AI0867: ok. I wrote something like a 50 line script to parse single-file wml files with a little stack based approach
20090811 02:13:03< corn> I guess I will stick to that for now
20090811 02:13:51< corn> Rhonda: also, a new mysql db needs to be created, and a few scripts put into nightly rotation in the crontab
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20090811 02:42:24< corn> Ivanovic, other people involved with gsoc: I was just reading the GSoC ML discussion and apparently the "code samples" they refer to are a tarball of all the work done for GSoC
20090811 02:42:30< corn> what is the best approach to generating this?
20090811 02:50:38< AI0867> git log --author=cornmander with some additional switches?
20090811 02:55:58< corn> ok
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20090811 03:48:07< esr> Hello, all.  I'm back from World Boardgaming Championships.
20090811 03:50:38< Blueblaze> esr: Did you attend as a player or an observer?
20090811 03:51:11< esr> Player.  Was in...I think...five tournaments.  Made semifinals in one.
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20090811 04:16:19< Aethaeryn> esr: which one?
20090811 04:19:33< Sirp> esr: what games did you compete in?
20090811 04:20:18-!- shadowmaster [n=ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [SendQ exceeded]
20090811 04:20:31< esr> Puerto Rico.  Race For The Galaxy.  Commands and Colors: Ancients.  RoboRally. Monsters Raviage America.
20090811 04:21:24< Aethaeryn> esr: which one did you do well in?
20090811 04:22:01< esr> Did well in CC:A and Monsters Ravage America, made semifinals in the latter.
20090811 04:25:15< esr> And unaccountably poorly in Race For The Galaxy.  I win many more games than I lose in that, outside tournaments.  When I walk into a tournament match my luck goes to shit - it's bizarre.
20090811 04:28:02< ancestral> Of those I've played Puerto Rico. Fun game it is.
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20090811 04:53:29 * shadowmaster has no idea what he did to his screen session.
20090811 04:53:56< shadowmaster> oh wait, it wasn't screen.
20090811 04:55:08< Aethaeryn> lol.
20090811 04:55:15< Aethaeryn> I've done that before.
20090811 04:55:19< Aethaeryn> I love screen
20090811 04:55:27< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: read again, it asn't screen.
20090811 04:56:31< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: 04:20 -!- shadowmaster [n=ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [SendQ exceeded]
20090811 04:57:46< shadowmaster> that means that the IRC server sent me tons of information faster than this machine could handleWhch is weird, since I wasn't even connected to it.
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20090811 05:06:28-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20090811 05:07:42< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Wow, you know more about IRC than me. I actually kinda feel ashamed that someone out-IRC-knowledge'd me. I've been using IRC since middle school, I think.
20090811 05:08:09< shadowmaster> I am familiarized with how Freenode works at a lower level than most users. I have also read the ircd's source code.
20090811 05:09:17< Aethaeryn> Well, you do have a bit of an advantage over me...
20090811 05:09:24< Aethaeryn> In that Freenode doesn't work a lot like "usual" IRC
20090811 05:09:28< Aethaeryn> most big networks do things their own way
20090811 05:21:05< corn> http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps
20090811 05:21:13< corn> check it out
20090811 05:21:23< corn> the color of the hex indicates the frequency of kills
20090811 05:21:38< corn> uncolored hexes are not witihn the top 100 frequency
20090811 05:21:53< corn> red is highest frequency, blue is lowest frequency
20090811 05:23:50< corn> I think I am going to increase the color opacity because it is hard to see right now
20090811 05:24:12< corn> changed
20090811 05:24:27< shadowmaster> blue-colored hexes tend to look like water hexes at edfault zoom.
20090811 05:24:36 * shadowmaster refreshes
20090811 05:25:26< Aethaeryn> corn: yay, it's done... awesome
20090811 05:25:32< corn> not done yet
20090811 05:25:34< corn> ;)
20090811 05:26:01< corn> I need to add an ajax function to the on-map popup that shows up when you click a hex
20090811 05:26:19< corn> so that you can see detailed per-hex statistics that would be too expensive to query for all the hexes at the same time
20090811 05:27:49< CIA-62> cornmander * r37665 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/ (controllers/killview.py templates/killview.html): 
20090811 05:27:49< CIA-62> Added hex coloring based on kill frequency to the killmap. Still need to add filter support and detailed per-hex statistics to the overlay that comes up when you click
20090811 05:27:49< CIA-62> a hex.
20090811 05:29:32< Aethaeryn> corn: kill maps for MP?
20090811 05:29:38< Aethaeryn> this is from the replay database?
20090811 05:30:03< corn> Aethaeryn: it is MP and SP, but the database only has logs for MP ai vs. ai games right now
20090811 05:30:12< Aethaeryn> corn: is there another map, one with multiple fronts?
20090811 05:30:19< corn> multiple fronts?
20090811 05:30:37< Aethaeryn> that is a boring map
20090811 05:30:48< Aethaeryn> most MP maps are split down the middle to give two or even three fronts
20090811 05:31:04< Aethaeryn> obviously that map has some potential for sneak arounds, but not too much
20090811 05:31:26< corn> there are statistics for 4 maps right now
20090811 05:32:04< Aethaeryn> yeah, noticed
20090811 05:32:07< Aethaeryn> just defaulted to Den of Onis
20090811 05:32:12< corn> yeah
20090811 05:32:16< Aethaeryn> hmm, yeah
20090811 05:32:20< corn> the UI still needs work right now
20090811 05:32:24< Aethaeryn> AI aren't good for stats, everything takes place around the middle
20090811 05:32:33< Aethaeryn> even on the Freelands
20090811 05:32:41< corn> well
20090811 05:32:41< Aethaeryn> where the middle is very defensive, and the flanks are where the action is
20090811 05:32:54< Aethaeryn> http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps?map=1feeb9ea041fefebfe6e26a8118bd7cc
20090811 05:33:06< corn> these are the kinds of trends that the interface is designed to show... ai designers will be able to see this and hopefully design better AIs
20090811 05:33:20< Aethaeryn> ah
20090811 05:33:40< Aethaeryn> I don't think AI can learn things like ToD, flanking, group attacking, etc.
20090811 05:34:43< Aethaeryn> a human plays MP better than AI
20090811 05:34:48< shadowmaster> AIs can use different parameters for each ToD however.
20090811 05:34:56< Aethaeryn> it does things like sets up defense on mountains, etc.
20090811 05:35:07< Aethaeryn> and sits on a defended line, attacks when conditions are favorable and only then...
20090811 05:35:16< Aethaeryn> and does things like makes ZoC lines to screen its injured
20090811 05:35:22< Aethaeryn> AI relies only on numbers.
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20090811 05:36:13< corn> Aethaeryn: there are many approaches to AI and it is an unsolved problem
20090811 05:36:29< corn> creating an AI that is indistinguishable from a human is a million dollar question (see turing test)
20090811 05:36:31< Aethaeryn> eh, if the Ai could do defense well, that'll be the day
20090811 05:36:42< Aethaeryn> not indistinguishable from human, BETTER than human
20090811 05:36:48< Aethaeryn> I even saw Dragonking make a mistake :o
20090811 05:36:54< Aethaeryn> a good AI would not make human error
20090811 05:37:26-!- shadowmaster is now known as patchpatch
20090811 05:37:26< corn> Aethaeryn: that is actually not so hard, if you let the AI cheat by ignoring map fog and even giving it different playing parameters than the other players (upkeep, unit toughness)
20090811 05:37:50< Aethaeryn> a non-cheating ai though.
20090811 05:38:04< Aethaeryn> an ai that could beat most (not high-level) players, basically by knowing when not to move
20090811 05:39:21< corn> the problem is much more difficult than how you are conceiving it... you could construct an AI that simulates _all_ possible moves on a map given enough time and choosing the action tree that will result in the 'best' victory, according to whatever your evaluation of 'best' is
20090811 05:39:51< corn> AI needs to be quick, believable, and smart
20090811 05:40:09< corn> doing 2 out of three is much easier than all 3
20090811 05:41:12< Aethaeryn> corn: simulating all possible moves
20090811 05:41:17< Aethaeryn> that could shake up the Wesnoth world.
20090811 05:41:27< Aethaeryn> I like it.
20090811 05:41:55< corn> no, the problem with that is that there is a huge number of total moves and you would not want to be the human player waiting for the AI to make a move
20090811 05:43:40< Aethaeryn> corn: simply raise the system requirements for Wesnoth.
20090811 05:43:45< Aethaeryn> to, say, an IBM supercomputer
20090811 05:45:12< corn> I am not sure that the supercomputers that IBM uses would be able to compute large_number_of_moves in advance in a reasonable amount of time
20090811 05:45:23< corn> wesnoth is a much more complex game than chess
20090811 05:48:45-!- patchpatch is now known as shadowmaster
20090811 05:50:39 * shadowmaster off to bed, good night
20090811 05:50:46< corn> night
20090811 05:51:16< Aethaeryn> corn: even if the supercomputers of today cannot handle that AI type...
20090811 05:51:28< Aethaeryn> I'm sure the netbooks and smartphones of 20 years from now will
20090811 05:51:33< shadowmaster> Turuk_: feel free to PM me at any time when you are back... assume, however, tat I'll not be available until 12:00 PM UTC tomorrow
20090811 05:52:23< Aethaeryn> so... feature request for Wesnoth 6.3.14?
20090811 05:52:59< Blueblaze> what version is that?
20090811 05:53:05< Blueblaze> 6.3.14?
20090811 05:53:11< Blueblaze> I think we'll have 3D animations by then
20090811 05:53:12< Blueblaze> :z
20090811 05:55:36< shadowmaster> ping
20090811 05:55:42< Aethaeryn> Blueblaze: no...
20090811 05:55:46< shadowmaster> ignore that.
20090811 05:55:57< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: pong ;)
20090811 05:56:25< Aethaeryn> Blueblaze: why would Wesnoth be 3D?
20090811 05:56:30< Blueblaze> nevermind
20090811 05:56:36< Aethaeryn> it'd probably skip from 3D to virtual reality if anything :P
20090811 05:56:56< Aethaeryn> surround room visual, surround sound sound...
20090811 05:57:55 * shadowmaster off for real.
20090811 05:58:33< Aethaeryn> would be funny to see Wesnoth multiple decades from now if it were still around
20090811 05:58:38< Aethaeryn> and see how much it improved
20090811 05:58:53< Aethaeryn> You can only say that for open source games :P
20090811 05:59:19< Aethaeryn> commercial games when they're rereleased are rarely updated
20090811 05:59:41< Aethaeryn> mid'night
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20090811 08:28:43< karl_m> wesbot: seen crab
20090811 08:28:43< wesbot> karl_m: Sorry, I don't know of crab.
20090811 08:28:54< karl_m> wesbot: seen Crab_
20090811 08:28:55< wesbot> karl_m: The person with the nick Crab_ 8h 17m ago they left with the message: "Leaving."
20090811 08:33:07-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090811 08:33:09< euschn> hi
20090811 08:38:02< Valkier> Hey
20090811 08:44:14< Rhonda> corn: What's your timezone? So that we can arrange it properly. :)
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20090811 09:01:07< fabi> hello
20090811 09:01:17< Blarumyrran> Why, hello there
20090811 09:06:34-!- Crab_ [i=crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090811 09:06:48< Crab_> hi
20090811 09:07:53< Valkier> I.. potentially am saying... hello.
20090811 09:08:03< Crab_> :)
20090811 09:08:21< Crab_> karl_m: hello, you were looking for me ?
20090811 09:12:10< karl_m> hi
20090811 09:12:19< karl_m> Crab_: 2 mins!
20090811 09:12:40< zookeeper> so will there likely ever be a 1.6.5 unless some serious issue is discovered?
20090811 09:13:21-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090811 09:22:37< karl_m> Crab_: sorry was on phone
20090811 09:22:58< Crab_> karl_m: all ok, I'm here for a long time today
20090811 09:23:41< karl_m> Crab_: If you have time to look at my recent patch that would be great. I have to go out for a few hours, won't do any more work on it until tomorrow my time (its 5.30pm for me)
20090811 09:24:30< karl_m> Crab_: this is about ai_batch_testing 
20090811 09:25:09< Crab_> yes, I know. Yes, I have time to look at it.
20090811 09:26:15< karl_m> Crab_: thanks, that would be great. the main thing i need to work out with it is why I am not getting any output in the logs
20090811 09:26:27< karl_m> Crab_: probably something dumb i am doing or not doing
20090811 09:26:41< karl_m> Crab_: After that I can try and actually make it work
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20090811 09:27:32< Crab_> ok, I'll check it out now
20090811 09:44:31< Ivanovic> moin
20090811 09:44:58< Ivanovic> esr: since you are back, fendrin was looking for some help with prose in LoW
20090811 09:49:31< Crab_> karl_m: I've added a comment to the patch page. Getting the messages to show required changing the scenario type from [test] to [multiplayer]
20090811 09:57:56< euschn> Crab_: when playing EI - Weldyn under attack, im getting "error ai/actions: Return value of AI ACTION was not checked. This may cause bugs!" during ai turns, followed by a segfault. I havent managed to reproduce it yet, but it happens fairly often. any ideas what might cause this?
20090811 09:59:08< Crab_> euschn: so, if I -d cl to this scenario, I will have a fairly good chance of reproducing ?
20090811 09:59:21< euschn> yes i think so
20090811 09:59:36< Crab_> ok, I'll try to do this now
20090811 09:59:39< Valkier> Talk like that to a woman and I'd say you'd have a VERY good chance of reproducing ;-)
20090811 09:59:51< Crab_> Valkier: we shall see :)
20090811 10:00:12< euschn> Crab_: it doesnt matter if you have any recalls or gold, since the first couple of tries will be mostly ai sides fighting each other
20090811 10:01:08< euschn> hm, additionally im getting a segfaults after a "full move failed" error every now and then
20090811 10:01:46< Crab_> euschn: if it's reproducible from a save, post it somewhere
20090811 10:01:54< euschn> will do
20090811 10:03:30< corn> Rhonda: EST
20090811 10:03:33< corn> hi
20090811 10:07:06< corn> Crab_: killmaps are up: http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps
20090811 10:10:26< corn> I noticed that on the freelands there is a bias to the left
20090811 10:10:35< Crab_> nice :)
20090811 10:12:21< Ivanovic> the ai has a north west bias IIRC
20090811 10:12:37< Ivanovic> so left would be probable for games where the ai participates...
20090811 10:12:38< Ivanovic> ;)
20090811 10:12:57< Crab_> Ivanovic: it's probably related simply to map being asymmetric
20090811 10:13:22< Ivanovic> right, that is possible, too
20090811 10:17:17< corn> Crab_: can you add more maps to your testing rotation?
20090811 10:17:20< corn> if you are still doing it
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20090811 10:18:26< Ivanovic> it is lovely to finally be able to read the mid term evals of GSoC
20090811 10:18:46< Ivanovic> (yes, this feature is new, before project admins were not able to have a look at them (argh!))
20090811 10:19:04< Crab_> corn: yes, it is possible.  deekay: can you suggest some more maps for the ai-vs-ai tests to use ? (in addition to multiplayer_Den_of_Onis, multiplayer_Fallenstar_Lake, multiplayer_The_Freelands, multiplayer_Weldyn_Channel)
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20090811 10:19:49< deekay> Crab_: 1v1 yes?
20090811 10:19:54< Crab_> yes
20090811 10:20:13< corn> also, given my table format for KILLMAP {scenario_name, map_id(md5 hash of map), game_id(currently not tracked), turn, killed_id,killed_level,killer_id,killer_level,position} is there a way to do filtering based on game version without a JOIN?
20090811 10:20:42< corn> deekay, Crab_: I don't think it is necessary for it to be 1v1
20090811 10:20:47< corn> just all AI players
20090811 10:21:11< deekay> Crab_: Hamlets,  I wonder about Silverhead
20090811 10:21:29< corn> Crab_: I was thinking that I would have to do a JOIN with the table tracking per-game logs (GAME_MP or GAME) based on game_id
20090811 10:21:50< corn> also, I disabled game_id tracking for now because game_id is an autoincrement field in both of those tables
20090811 10:21:56< corn> and afaik the application server I am using is multithreaded
20090811 10:22:22< corn> so if I insert into the GAMES table and then try retrieving the value on the next line, I might get the wrong index
20090811 10:22:38< corn> since another thread may have inserted at that time as well
20090811 10:22:43< Crab_> corn: mysql hasn't got true sequences ?
20090811 10:22:43< corn> is that a genuine concern?
20090811 10:22:44< deekay> Crab_: And maybe hornshark island
20090811 10:23:07< corn> Crab_: what do you mean by 'true' sequence
20090811 10:24:05< corn> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/information-functions.html#function_last-insert-id
20090811 10:24:06< deekay> Crab_: Will you be here around the day after tomorrow?
20090811 10:24:14< Crab_> corn: when thread does operations, then inserts into table, then can check 'what's the last value of the sequence which was used by my actions'
20090811 10:24:22< Crab_> deekay: yes
20090811 10:25:00< deekay> Crab_: Ok, I'll have favour to ask you, I should have basic FormulaAI ready and I would like to perfor some test like you did with default vs default
20090811 10:25:53< corn> Crab_: ok, I think last_insert_id() accomplishes what I need
20090811 10:25:54< Crab_> corn: and judging from that doc, all is ok in your case, too. see "The ID that was generated is maintained in the server on a per-connection basis. This means that the value returned by the function to a given client is the first AUTO_INCREMENT value generated for most recent statement affecting an AUTO_INCREMENT column by that client."
20090811 10:26:11< corn> ok, thanks
20090811 10:27:40< corn> ok, today I will focus on finishing the killmaps page and adding as many filtering fields as possible
20090811 10:28:16< corn> unit level range, turn level range, unit type filter, wesnoth version filter
20090811 10:28:32< corn> s/turn level/turn/
20090811 10:29:24< corn> Crab_: do you have any suggestion for a truncation scheme for the KILLMAPS table? one game can generate a hundred rows alone
20090811 10:30:27< corn> I don't think it would be good just to say truncate all rows after the last 1 million inserted
20090811 10:30:42< corn> or N million
20090811 10:31:08< Crab_> corn: can you add a 'count' field to the table
20090811 10:31:09< Crab_> ?
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20090811 10:31:20< corn> Crab_: as in, an autoincrementing index?
20090811 10:31:25< Crab_> no
20090811 10:31:36< Crab_> i.e. if two archers have died on the same hex, why not 'join' them into one row ?
20090811 10:31:57< corn> you will most likely lose information about turn and attacker
20090811 10:32:17< Crab_> corn: let it be. but the most important info will be preserved
20090811 10:32:55< Crab_> corn: so, this additional info can be present, then, at some point during a row's lifetime, removed.
20090811 10:33:07< corn> hm
20090811 10:33:23< corn> I think it would be better just to run a nightly cronjob that truncates the number of rows per map_id
20090811 10:33:31< corn> to something like 10,000 per map_id
20090811 10:33:48< Crab_> corn: well, that's possible too. 10000 is too small, btw
20090811 10:34:02< Crab_> corn: ~400 unit types, many places to die,
20090811 10:34:19< corn> Crab_: right now I am only showing the top 100 hexes on the killmap
20090811 10:34:25< corn> in terms of death statistics, that is
20090811 10:34:37< Crab_> corn: I suggest doing the following: when there will be plenty of rows in the table, calculate the following stats:
20090811 10:34:57< Crab_> 1) how many rows will be removed if you remove 'all but top 100 hexes'
20090811 10:35:31< Crab_> 2) how many rows would be removed if you 'merge' (increasing the counter) the rows with the same defender_type_id and the same hex
20090811 10:36:05< Crab_> after then, there will be some stat numbers and it will be seen 'what can be done'
20090811 10:36:08< corn> Crab_: ok
20090811 10:38:52< Crab_> deekay: ok
20090811 10:43:27< corn> ok, I am off for now, I will be back in 5 hrs
20090811 10:43:50< Crab_> corn: ok. I'll change the maps to those new ones
20090811 10:43:57< corn> ok, thank you
20090811 10:44:16< Crab_> deekay: you will commit your changes to svn (e.g., to data/ai/dev/formula_ai.cfg ) ? or you will send a patch ?
20090811 10:44:27< deekay> Crab_: Commit
20090811 10:44:50< Crab_> ok
20090811 10:45:04< corn> Crab_: we should think of a scheme to do logging of other hex-specific events
20090811 10:45:31< corn> as in, a generalized way to add hex-specific events to the log or replay
20090811 10:45:38< Crab_> ok
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20090811 10:49:22< Crab_> euschn: 10 turns so far, no crashes. what I'm doing wrong ?
20090811 10:49:32-!- YogiHH [i=d4ca9d15@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090811 10:49:37< YogiHH> hello
20090811 10:50:19< fabi> esr: Hello, please help me with http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=26618 :-)
20090811 10:51:34< deekay> hi YogiHH 
20090811 10:59:55< Crab_> euschn: what revision are you running at ?
20090811 11:06:15< euschn> Crab_: 37665
20090811 11:08:57< Crab_> ok. any more ideas about 'how to reproduce' ? (played for 20 turns, no crashes)
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20090811 11:20:29< Crab_> found a bug with Eastern Invasion (probably WML) : 1) start EI 2) cl to epilogue, 3) after the king's speech, you get a 'defeat' message, instead of 'victory'
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20090811 11:34:19< fabi> Crab_: sounds familiar. Had something like that in LoW as well. Please fill a bug report and assign it to me.
20090811 11:34:29< Crab_> ok
20090811 11:34:52< fabi> If it's not a wml thing I will give it back to the pool.
20090811 11:35:06< fabi> please :-)
20090811 11:36:28< Crab_> fabi: https://gna.org/bugs/?14103
20090811 11:37:48< euschn> Crab_: weird, i still get segfaults. still havent found a better way to reproduce than just play, you could try my start of scenario save: http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e0204097/wesnoth/EI-Weldyn_under_Attack
20090811 11:37:53< fabi> Crab_: Thank you.
20090811 11:39:41< Crab_> euschn: ok, I'll try
20090811 11:39:46< euschn> thanks
20090811 11:40:46< silene> fabi: i doubt it is a wml issue, it's probably my fault
20090811 11:41:59< silene> or rather, it's a bit of both; the scenario lasts for only one turn, but the victory is checked only on turn 2, or something like that
20090811 11:44:03< zookeeper> well the [endlevel] has no result=
20090811 11:44:07< zookeeper> isn't that clearly the cause?
20090811 11:44:14< silene> zookeeper: no result is equivalent to result=victory
20090811 11:44:21< Crab_> zookeeper: I tried adding result=victory there, no changes.
20090811 11:44:36< silene> otherwise, the usual [endlevel][/endlevel] would never work
20090811 11:44:51< zookeeper> silene, uhm, why would it need to be anything other than victory?
20090811 11:45:06< zookeeper> [endlevel] is never used without a result=
20090811 11:45:21< zookeeper> or at least it wouldn't make any kind of sense to me
20090811 11:47:17< zookeeper> but of course if adding it there doesn't change anything then there's an engine bug somewhere
20090811 11:47:21< Crab_> euschn: when you play  next time, can you do so under a debugger, to see the backtrace? (It may be enough to find out the reason)
20090811 11:47:38< silene> zookeeper: just because it is no longer used without result= in mainline, that doesn't mean it was always the case; in the early times, a level was ended by doing [endlevel][/endlevel], that's why the code still assumes it is a victory
20090811 11:47:54< euschn> Crab_: hm youre right, I should have done that already
20090811 11:48:06< zookeeper> silene, all right. that must have been a _really_ old way of doing it though.
20090811 11:48:57< zookeeper> in any case, i don't know why someone has apparently removed it from that one
20090811 11:49:08< zookeeper> unless i originally forgot to add it myself
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20090811 11:51:01< Crab_> wesbot: log 37495
20090811 11:51:02< wesbot> silene * r37495 : Replaced deprecated 'result' values in 'endlevel' tag.
20090811 11:51:06< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=37495
20090811 11:51:09< silene> zookeeper: i did remove it, because it wasn't a result=victory there
20090811 11:51:43< zookeeper> silene, ah, i see. all cases of continue or continue_no_save should have been converted to victory though
20090811 11:52:20< fabi> uh, that will cause many bugs in LoW as well.
20090811 11:52:26< zookeeper> (with the appropriate carryover_report=, save= etc)
20090811 11:52:55< Crab_> fabi: LoW's epilogue was touched in the same way
20090811 11:53:50< fabi> Have to go now, bye.
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20090811 11:55:49< CIA-62> silene * r37666 /trunk/src/playsingle_controller.cpp: Removed end level triggering end turn.
20090811 11:56:14< silene> here comes a partial fix; but it introduces another glitch: since the turn is not ended, objectives are displayed; i will fix it later
20090811 11:56:29< zookeeper> uh, i should have thought of that when we talked about it..
20090811 11:56:53< zookeeper> assuming it's related to that
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20090811 12:02:02< Crab_> euschn: yes! your magic save did it :) got a segfault :)
20090811 12:02:17< euschn> Crab_: grats :)
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20090811 12:03:12< Crab_> backtrace - http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m40454da0
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20090811 12:05:31< CIA-62> silene * r37667 /trunk/src/play_controller.cpp: Prevented objective display if the scenario ended before the game even started.
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20090811 12:17:20< Crab_> euschn: ok, I'll debug this issue later today (it requires adding some special debug statements, to find out which of the event observers has a problem)
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20090811 12:35:51< mordante> servus
20090811 12:36:15< mordante> corn your killmaps look really cool
20090811 12:36:18< euschn> ho mordante 
20090811 12:36:20< euschn> hi*
20090811 12:36:26< mordante> hi euschn 
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20090811 14:06:23-!- shadowmaster changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Forums and wiki down for maintenance | 69 bugs, 239 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090811 14:12:40< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen Ivanovic
20090811 14:12:41< wesbot> shadowmaster: Queried user Ivanovic is currently here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-de.
20090811 14:16:25< Ivanovic> hi shadowmaster
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20090811 15:09:26< Blarumyrran> http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps what is this, from ai vs ai games or from real games?
20090811 15:10:04< Ivanovic> probably ai vs ai
20090811 15:10:14< Crab_> Blarumyrran: ai-vs-ai
20090811 15:13:23< Blarumyrran> Having such from real games would be cool i guess
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20090811 15:31:11< shadowmaster> is the forums' RSS/Atom feed working for any of you at the moment?
20090811 15:32:20-!- allefant [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090811 15:33:13< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes, tried to get RSS feed, it worked.
20090811 15:33:16< shadowmaster> any global (read: all subforums) RSS feed seems not to work here, although individual subforum feeds works.
20090811 15:33:52< Crab_> yes, it worked for individual subforum
20090811 15:34:49< shadowmaster> um, global RSS feed works with Akregator here but not with Iceweasel
20090811 15:34:57< Crab_> worked for all forums, too
20090811 15:35:05< Crab_> iceweasel 3.0.9
20090811 15:35:17< shadowmaster> 3.0.6.
20090811 15:35:29< shadowmaster> I'll call it a browser bug then ;)
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20090811 15:38:35< shadowmaster> Everything seems to be working properly (as in, database not corrupted, etc.), but maybe one of you could try to login into the multiplayer server with a registered account?
20090811 15:38:51< shadowmaster> I cannot do it because those ports are blocked in this network.
20090811 15:39:33-!- karl_m1 [n=karlm@220-253-90-228.QLD.netspace.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090811 15:39:43< karl_m1> Crab_: Awesome, thanks
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20090811 15:39:55< loonycyborg> shadowmaster: It allowed me to log it
20090811 15:40:02< Crab_> shadowmaster: success (trunk mp server)
20090811 15:40:04< shadowmaster> cool, thanks
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20090811 15:40:57< Crab_> karl_m1: just ask if you run into any problems with that patch
20090811 15:41:12< loonycyborg> I also tried incorrect password and it was properly rejected :P
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20090811 15:48:05-!- shadowmaster changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 69 bugs, 239 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090811 16:02:15< shadowmaster> hm. I'm now unsure if changing the go-to-last-post icon in the wesnoth theme was a good idea.
20090811 16:02:54< shadowmaster> is any of the 129 users who use the wesnoth forum theme here?
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20090811 16:18:00< Ivanovic> i do
20090811 16:18:40< fabi> wesnoth forum theme?
20090811 16:19:16< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: oh, you are one of those then? what do you think of the "new" (???) go-to-last-post icons?
20090811 16:19:49< Ivanovic> looks interesting
20090811 16:20:04< Ivanovic> you mean the "go to first unread post in thread", right?
20090811 16:20:15< shadowmaster> yes, thoes crown icons
20090811 16:20:29< Ivanovic> uhm, i see something that i miss in that theme
20090811 16:20:47< Ivanovic> that is: i don't really miss it, the order is just wrong
20090811 16:20:58< Ivanovic> "View new posts" and "View unread posts"
20090811 16:21:17< Ivanovic> in the old theme it was view unread on the left and view new in the middle
20090811 16:21:19< shadowmaster> huh. I'll put VUP first then.
20090811 16:21:52< Ivanovic> in general i'd say the forum looks fine to me
20090811 16:24:27< shadowmaster> the crown icons don't look so nice to me in a real board.
20090811 16:24:54< shadowmaster> I mean, they looked nice in my test board with less than 7 posts per forum, but on a board with so many topics, uhhh....
20090811 16:27:09< Ivanovic> ^^
20090811 16:27:25< Ivanovic> yes, the crowns are really not perfect
20090811 16:27:36< zookeeper> someone really needs to make sure that those forum down notices get the proper headers they should. every single time the forums are down with a notice, the headers of that page are _not_ set so that my browser would check for a newer version every time.
20090811 16:27:50< zookeeper> leading to me seeing that notice until i force my browser to do a refresh
20090811 16:28:03< zookeeper> ...which most users wouldn't realize to do
20090811 16:28:46< shadowmaster> um, I'll check what's wrong with it.
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20090811 16:30:27< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: applied your suggested change.
20090811 16:30:32< boucman> hey all
20090811 16:30:40< Ivanovic> okay
20090811 16:30:46< Ivanovic> thanks
20090811 16:30:47< Crab_> hi boucman. I've seen I missed your return by 10m :)
20090811 16:30:48< Ivanovic> hi boucman
20090811 16:30:59< boucman> yeah, saw that
20090811 16:31:15< boucman> i`m in the US right now so not in the same TZ
20090811 16:31:31< boucman> is everything going well ?
20090811 16:32:55< Crab_> yes. I've split formula_ai into 'core part' (formula_ai) and several stages, plus fixed some bugs, plus I've made both fai and cpp use common move maps and attacks vector.
20090811 16:33:37< Crab_> I'm working on formula debugger now (plus will commit some stuff for DK today)
20090811 16:33:37< boucman> yes I had a quick look at your co;;its, but no time for a co;plete proofread...
20090811 16:33:45< boucman> ok
20090811 16:34:48< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: the crowns are now gone.
20090811 16:35:14< Ivanovic> for read there are still crowns, right?
20090811 16:35:48< shadowmaster> stupid persistent crowns. Oh, btw, refresh your browser cache for those.
20090811 16:36:31< Ivanovic> i still see crowns in the "go to page" row
20090811 16:36:59< Crab_> boucman: note the way I abused template specialization to allow attacks_vector to be an aspect. I'll do the same with recruitment. a mini-stage of sorts. this will allow interesting things, for example "use formula ai recruitment everywhere during turns 1 and 7, else use default ai recruitment"
20090811 16:37:26< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: those have been there for that theme as long as I can remember using that theme.
20090811 16:37:40< shadowmaster> e.g. no, cycholka didn't give me the recolored non-crown versions of those icons
20090811 16:37:53< Ivanovic> the problem is that currently the amount of new posts is rather low so i can hardly check how those look
20090811 16:37:54< Ivanovic> ;)
20090811 16:38:35< boucman> Crab_: to be honest I didn`t understand that partm i stored it for complete reading later, what exactly is that aspect ?
20090811 16:39:08< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: anyway, should I add some update to the wrong page?
20090811 16:39:11< shadowmaster> er, front page.
20090811 16:39:42< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: feel free to do so
20090811 16:39:53< Crab_> boucman: Aspect is a value calculated by the defined function, with specified invalidation rules. It is used to provide parameters which affect the entire ai. But, it can also be reused to provide a cache which will be reused by the entire ai.
20090811 16:40:23< Ivanovic> some "<b>update:</b> the maintenance was successfully completed, if you observe any problems, report them in the forums"-line at the end of the news should be enough
20090811 16:40:29< Ivanovic> (no extra news item that is)
20090811 16:40:54< Crab_> boucman: for example, there's a list of attacks. it is needed both by fai and cpp code, and it stays the same until we move/attack/recruit/change turn
20090811 16:40:56< boucman> Crab_: no, i mean the attack aspect, i know what an aspect is
20090811 16:41:28< boucman> so the attack aspect is the list of all `attack` moves ?
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20090811 16:41:53< shadowmaster> death to the crown! :(
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20090811 16:56:53< boucman>  <boucman> so the attack aspect is the list of all `attack` moves ?
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20090811 16:56:58< Crab_> (sorry, inet failure)
20090811 16:57:04< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: updated frontpage
20090811 16:57:23< Crab_> a list of attack_analysis objects
20090811 16:57:25< Crab_>  boucman: so, I've done an aspect which uses standard ('ai_default') attack analysis code to returns a vector of attack_analysis. this aspect is invalidated on each gamestate change.
20090811 16:57:25< Ivanovic> uhm, please place the update at the end of the news entry
20090811 16:57:29< Crab_> boucman: and, it stores both c++ and fai representation of that vector of attack analysis (fai representation is calculated on-demand)
20090811 16:57:36< Ivanovic> and just separate with a br, not with a paragraph
20090811 16:57:38< Crab_> I've added code to allow a certain 'dual value' for aspects - when the aspect is recalculated, it sets at either c++ representation or 'variant' representation. Other one can be computed only if needed, on-demand.
20090811 16:57:43< Crab_> so, when any part of ai needs the current vector of attack_analysis, it can simply call get_attacks() or use fai "attacks" function which will use get_attacks_as_variant() 
20090811 16:57:47< Crab_> and that list is guaranteed to be 'up-to-date', without any 'prepare_move' special stuff
20090811 16:57:51< Crab_> also, being an aspect, it's easy to do another implementation of 'get all good attack sequences' part of the ai, and plug it in (by using [aspect]..[/aspect] in the ai config)
20090811 16:57:55< Crab_>  ( boucman: if there any specific parts that need more explanation, just say so )
20090811 16:57:58< Crab_> also, after formula_ai refactoring, the paradigm "each ai is a composite ai" became: "each ai is a composite ai, and each ai has a unique formula_ai instance associated with it"
20090811 16:58:06< CIA-62> soliton * r37668 /branches/1.6/src/server/server.cpp: mark online players in the searchlog result also when searching for a nick
20090811 16:58:18< CIA-62> soliton * r37669 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: mark online players in the searchlog result also when searching for a nick
20090811 16:58:18< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: I don't like gratuitous <br />s
20090811 16:58:31< shadowmaster> but sure
20090811 16:58:44< boucman> ok, so it`s an easy way to store attack analysis
20090811 16:58:48< boucman> makes sense
20090811 16:59:04< boucman> so i guess it`s not WML changeable
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20090811 16:59:23< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: done
20090811 17:00:32< Ivanovic> great, thanks
20090811 17:01:02 * shadowmaster notices for the first time that Firefox likes to take XHTML and convert it into HTML for itself.
20090811 17:01:08< Crab_> boucman: well, 1) we can extract some parameters from the code to WML config  2) we can code an implementation using fai engine - as a formula which returns some kind of map
20090811 17:02:06< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37670 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Wire new Drake Burner flight and fire frames.
20090811 17:02:47< boucman> ok
20090811 17:03:05< crimson_penguin> shadowmaster: probably because it's being sent as HTML
20090811 17:03:12< crimson_penguin> shadowmaster: http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml
20090811 17:03:30< shadowmaster> crimson_penguin: yeah, I know well the "little" problem with XHTML
20090811 17:03:45< shadowmaster> had to deal with it myself when writing my website
20090811 17:04:02< Crab_> but the main advantages are ease-of-use and pluggability - It is now easy enough to fork & change the attack scoring code, if some new ideas about preparing the list of initial 'attacks' will be considered.
20090811 17:04:24< crimson_penguin> shadowmaster: why? just use HTML
20090811 17:04:38< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37671 /trunk/data/core/units/drakes/Burner.cfg: minor update to burner wml
20090811 17:04:40< Crab_> boucman: the same with recruitment - I'm commit 'recruitment as an aspect today', this will allow to plug-in DKs recruitment and playtest the results.
20090811 17:04:54< shadowmaster> crimson_penguin: eh, it works fine as long as you are careful.
20090811 17:04:56< Crab_> s/I'm/I'll
20090811 17:05:17< shadowmaster> anyway, Opera seems to respect the document's XML specification. I dddddon't get <br>s
20090811 17:05:27< shadowmaster> (go Opera! boo Firefox!)
20090811 17:05:45< boucman> great
20090811 17:07:27< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37672 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs):
20090811 17:07:38< thespaceinvader> oops, forgot a message
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20090811 17:07:48< shadowmaster> thespaceinvader: the curiosity is killing me.
20090811 17:07:50< thespaceinvader> that should say 'add and wire new deathblade portrait
20090811 17:09:32< crimson_penguin> shadowmaster: but what's the advantage of using it?
20090811 17:09:59< shadowmaster> specialized user agents IIRC
20090811 17:11:05< shadowmaster> (and also being able to say "oh, look at me, I'm using HTMLish XML, a.k.a. XHTML1")
20090811 17:11:08< shadowmaster> s/1//
20090811 17:11:39< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: sounds to me like a clear case of "because he can"
20090811 17:11:41< Ivanovic> ;)
20090811 17:12:06< crimson_penguin> indeed :P
20090811 17:13:26< crimson_penguin> but if you wanna support IE, which doesn't support XHTML at all, you have to either give it real HTML, or XHTML it'll treat as broken HTML - which means either doing it "wrong", or having to maintain twice as much (though this could be automated I guess)
20090811 17:14:50< shadowmaster> my pages seem to work fine with XHTML-capable browsers, and with IE 5 and later up to the IE 8 beta included with Windows 7 RC 1 (minus major CSS issues with IE 5, minor CSS issues with IE 6)
20090811 17:15:40< shadowmaster> reminds me I was supposed to fix some major CSS issues affecting all browsers too
20090811 17:16:56< crimson_penguin> well, have fun with that :P
20090811 17:18:59 * crimson_penguin thinks it's silly that IE will go into "standards mode" for XHTML, even though it doesn't understand that standard
20090811 17:20:13< shadowmaster> um.
20090811 17:20:33< shadowmaster> I totally forgot about the "phantom mod" that involved changing the ImageMagick parameters for image snapshots
20090811 17:21:56< shadowmaster> the vanilla phpBB 3.0.5 parameters seem to be way better than phpBB 3.0.4 and earlier though.
20090811 17:22:12< shadowmaster> thespaceinvader: if you notice anyting wrong or just annoying with snapshpts, please notify me
20090811 17:22:30< thespaceinvader> shadowmaster: with snapshots?
20090811 17:22:35< shadowmaster> yes, attachment snapshots
20090811 17:25:15< thespaceinvader> ok
20090811 17:25:20< thespaceinvader> what do you mean, exactly?
20090811 17:26:29< shadowmaster> some months ago, kitty complained a lot about the attachment snapshots getting color hue shifts, compared to the actual attachments.
20090811 17:27:40< shadowmaster> "looks like a peach" (http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=317017#p317017). Basically I/we don't want snapshots to look too different from the originals.
20090811 17:29:29< euschn> Ivanovic, YogiHH: I have added a summary to my wiki page: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeProposal_Euschn#GSoC_2009:_Summary - is this what you had in mind (Ivanovic), or would you like a more detailed summary?
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20090811 17:29:46< Ivanovic> euschn: looks perfekt
20090811 17:29:53< euschn> great
20090811 17:29:55< Ivanovic> (that is from the amount listed)
20090811 17:32:06< euschn> additionally, I will add an updated version of the uml model tommorow
20090811 17:33:41< thespaceinvader> shadowmaster: i'm with you
20090811 17:33:50< thespaceinvader> i'll let you know
20090811 17:34:14< Ivanovic> okay, i am off for the evening, cu
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20090811 18:00:28< shadowmaster> hi Sirp 
20090811 18:00:36< Sirp> hi shadowmaster 
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20090811 18:13:20< corn> Sirp: check out http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps
20090811 18:14:03< corn> it shows the top 100 hexes according to kill frequency
20090811 18:14:14< corn> blue is lowest frequency, red is highest
20090811 18:15:00< corn> mordante (not here): thanks
20090811 18:15:20< boucman> cornthat`s cool
20090811 18:15:26< corn> boucman: thanks
20090811 18:16:59< corn> going afk again
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20090811 18:18:16< Sirp> corn: awesome. :)
20090811 18:18:50< Sirp> corn: so how many years until you graduate from college again, and do you want to move to Texas for a job when you do? :p
20090811 18:19:53< Sirp> corn: it's very interesting how almost no serious fighting seems to take place on the fringes of the map
20090811 18:21:29< Crab_> Sirp: one of the AIs is using a very simple targeting phase, which is basically 'go for the enemy leader'. so, it's a bit biased because of that.
20090811 18:22:00< Sirp> Crab_: ahhhh so this isn't for multiplayer games, it's for AI vs AI? or player vs AI?
20090811 18:22:11< Crab_> Sirp: it's ai-vs-ai
20090811 18:22:38< Crab_> ~3500 games
20090811 18:24:09< Sirp> ahhhh
20090811 18:24:29< Sirp> interesting.
20090811 18:24:41< Sirp> Crab_: did you and corn collaborate on that?
20090811 18:25:03-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090811 18:25:59< Crab_> yes, a bit. corn did most of it but we reused my ai batch testing script, and it runs on one of my machines (sending data both to corn's dev machine and to my ai-vs-ai stats webinterface)
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20090811 18:29:17< Crab_> Sirp: see, for example, ai-vs-ai faction strength in those games: http://aitest.wesnoth.org/index.php?dim1=faction_me&dim2=faction_enemy&latest_svn_only=yes
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20090811 18:31:11< boucman> Crab_: northerners are clearly the best faction for AI :)
20090811 18:31:49< Crab_> boucman: yes :) but, we'll see what changes will DKs new recruitment bring :)
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20090811 18:32:25< shadowmaster> boucman: there's a pretty good chance that it could be a fact!
20090811 18:32:35< shadowmaster> the first Wesnoth scenario ever involved orcs
20090811 18:32:50< boucman> Crab_: remember that northerners were specifically designed to be AI friendly, so I`m not sure it will help that particular bias
20090811 18:33:07< Crab_> boucman: we'll see that pretty soon :)
20090811 18:33:42< deekay> Notherers are cheap and efficent on flat terrain, where they few but powerful strikes can lang well
20090811 18:34:40< deekay> So since AI can get quite bug number of units, and just attack around without positioning anything (too) well, we can see what it leads too
20090811 18:34:41< deekay> :)
20090811 18:34:47 * shadowmaster discovers that wesnoth 0.1 didn't react to SIGTERM :(
20090811 18:35:15< deekay> s/lang/land/
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20090811 18:35:54< Crab_> boucman, deekay: it's interesting to see how many formula evaluations are required to evaluate "nearest_loc(nearest_loc(my_leader.loc,map(filter(map.terrain,id='castle'),loc)),unit_moves(my_leader.loc))"  (this is from scenario-formula.cfg) 
20090811 18:36:07< Crab_> 1536
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20090811 18:36:54< deekay> Crab_: And what do you mean by a "evaluation" ?
20090811 18:37:29< boucman> deekay: more specifically, the northerners special abilities (like poison, regenerate) are totally passive whereas loys have leadership and healing that are much ;ore co;plicated to use. the AI is more effective with northerners because of that...
20090811 18:37:41< Crab_> deekay: constructing a function_expression and calling it's evaluate(...)  method
20090811 18:38:10< boucman> Crab_: that sounds like a lot, but might be normal...
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20090811 18:38:44< Crab_> boucman: it's because filter(map.terrain,id='castle') takes many evaluations to do. 
20090811 18:39:50< boucman> it`s implemented recursively ?
20090811 18:40:03< deekay> Not really
20090811 18:40:09< deekay> So I wonder about it
20090811 18:40:28< Crab_> boucman: once per each map hex, run a secondary formula...
20090811 18:41:30< Crab_> for(it = items.begin(); it != items.end(); ++it)  {      const variant val = args()[1]->evaluate(formula_variant_callable_with_backup(*it, variables),fdb); ... }
20090811 18:41:40< boucman> hmm
20090811 18:41:54< boucman> well, I guess it`s normal then
20090811 18:42:01< deekay> Seems so
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20090811 18:48:58< Crab_> boucman: that's how an example fai execution trace looks like atm: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m9fd5728
20090811 18:50:22< boucman> is this a printout of your new fai debugger ?
20090811 18:50:43< Sirp> Crab_: wow, I am very impressed at how well you and corn have done on GSoC :)
20090811 18:50:46< Crab_> boucman: yes, an alpha version.
20090811 18:51:13< boucman> congratulation, that looks good :)
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20090811 18:51:24< Crab_> Sirp: thanks. although not all original goals have been reached (but some extra stuff was done).
20090811 18:51:45< Crab_> boucman: I'll add more debug info to it, to get rid of those 'nameless' expressions
20090811 18:52:36< Sirp> Crab_: I think this always happens. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. :)
20090811 18:53:21< boucman> I second what Sirp said, I didn't expect you to follow your goals... it never happens
20090811 18:53:42< boucman> ok, gotta go, see you all later
20090811 18:53:50< Crab_> ok
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20090811 18:54:09< Crab_> Sirp: yes
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20090811 20:07:39< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37673 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Thug portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090811 20:15:51< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37674 /trunk/ (9 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Bandit portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits. Remove a couple of unused out-of-style portraits.
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20090811 20:24:14< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090811 20:32:35-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090811 20:32:52< mordante> servus
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20090811 20:53:04< CIA-62> mordante * r37675 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
20090811 20:53:04< CIA-62> Fix gcc 4.4 compilation errors.
20090811 20:53:04< CIA-62> Fixes Debian bug #539546, after fixing the reported issue fixed more problems
20090811 20:53:04< CIA-62> discovered by gcc 4.4.
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20090811 21:13:36< CIA-62> soliton * r37676 /branches/1.6/src/server/ (game.cpp game.hpp): don't consider ai sides on a team
20090811 21:18:37< CIA-62> soliton * r37677 /trunk/src/server/ (game.cpp game.hpp): don't consider ai sides on a team
20090811 21:21:55< corn> Crab_: generating map tilesets for the new maps now
20090811 21:22:03< Crab_> ok
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20090811 21:59:38< kitty_> thespaceinvader , Valkier : I've got a very first sketch fo the naga - any opinions? http://imagebin.ca/img/PcihQiKS.png (the bodyarmour is meant to go over in similar shaped scales at his tail)
20090811 22:00:27< thespaceinvader> kitty_: something a little less smooth and more obviously scaly would appeal, to contrast with the mermen
20090811 22:00:33< thespaceinvader> and with a more animalistic head
20090811 22:00:53< kitty_> hmm, the scales are not drawin in yet, that will get more rough.
20090811 22:01:06< thespaceinvader> mm
20090811 22:01:20< kitty_> for the head - i tried to say true to the current portraits, perhaps i should derivate from them more...
20090811 22:01:28< thespaceinvader> i'm a big fan of the look the Girgistian came up with
20090811 22:01:35< kitty_> who did them anyways? jormundgardner?
20090811 22:01:39< thespaceinvader> it's worth bearing in mind that the look of the sprites has changed since then
20090811 22:01:47< thespaceinvader> i think you should feel free to make them a little mor eunique
20090811 22:01:58< thespaceinvader> i think it was jormungandr, not sure though
20090811 22:02:00< kitty_> do you have a link to girgistians sketch? i don'T remember it well
20090811 22:02:02< thespaceinvader> easy enough to check
20090811 22:02:56< thespaceinvader> yeah, it was jormungandr#
20090811 22:03:06< kitty_> ah, thanks
20090811 22:03:08< thespaceinvader> kitty_: http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh175/KurjaSaasta/naga.png
20090811 22:03:44< kitty_> truth to be told, i'm not fond of that one - it seems really cute to me. and the armour is not oriental at all...
20090811 22:04:02< thespaceinvader> nah, the armour would need work
20090811 22:04:20< kitty_> but the more snake-ish head is an inspiration - i'm afraid to make it too wow naga-ish...
20090811 22:04:25< thespaceinvader> and i think the naga sprites are intended to be indian subcontinent-inspired, rather than oriental
20090811 22:04:36< thespaceinvader> don't know the wow nagas...
20090811 22:05:05< thespaceinvader> do now, thank you google
20090811 22:05:13< kitty_> Jet said something about oriental/persian influences for the classical clash with the roman/atlantian merfolk
20090811 22:05:20< thespaceinvader> yeah, it's a difficult balance to strike
20090811 22:05:36< thespaceinvader> yeah, i guess it;s a sort of mix of various eastern cultures
20090811 22:05:50< thespaceinvader> certainly, the myrmidon's helm is very indian
20090811 22:05:56< kitty_> but the wow ones are more crocodil-like, I'll try to stay more snake-ish instead
20090811 22:06:02< thespaceinvader> yeah
20090811 22:06:12< thespaceinvader> though the pointed armour reminds me a lot of pagodas...
20090811 22:06:43< kitty_> the L2 and L3 will get a combined portrait, but since the L3 sprite is more interesting I plan to base it more on that sprite...
20090811 22:06:48< thespaceinvader> yeah
20090811 22:07:10< thespaceinvader> maybe not doing too much on the finniness would help avoid the wow naga references - they seem to be finny all over
20090811 22:07:31< thespaceinvader> keeping them relatively simple, more horn-like, and confined to the head/crest would be good
20090811 22:08:14< thespaceinvader> it's worth remembering why they're likely to be there, too - mating displays and the like
20090811 22:08:31< kitty_> yeah, no body fins at all. but it is very tempting to increase them in size for the higher levels
20090811 22:08:42< kitty_> the new sprites are gender neutral, right?
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20090811 22:09:25< thespaceinvader> jet's aiming for the new sprites to be a male line, and then to later add two new lines, at least one of which will be female only
20090811 22:09:33< CIA-62> soliton * r37678 /branches/1.6/src/server/ban.cpp: return responses instead of logging them seperately
20090811 22:09:54< CIA-62> soliton * r37679 /trunk/src/server/ban.cpp: return responses instead of logging them seperately
20090811 22:10:11< thespaceinvader> probably avoiding the common problems of giving reptiles breasts, with more bird-like gender dichotomy - the females being slightly smaller, more drab and camouflaged
20090811 22:10:27< thespaceinvader> probably using chakram
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20090811 22:12:08< kitty_> yep.
20090811 22:12:19< thespaceinvader> kitty_: also, just uploaded the latest on the Burner
20090811 22:12:39< thespaceinvader> and i managed to take some useful reference photographs for the AW at last, so that should progress soon
20090811 22:13:12< kitty_> some min, please
20090811 22:13:21< thespaceinvader> particularly since we're rapidly running short of base frames for the drake animations..
20090811 22:13:24< thespaceinvader> yeah, no hurry
20090811 22:15:31< CIA-62> crab * r37680 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 3 dirs): added basic tracing capabilities to formula_debugger
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20090811 22:17:16< kitty_>  thespaceinvader: nice! legs etc are a lot better - but you lost the torso's definition, it's a too ton-like now. but certainly you're on the right track!
20090811 22:17:54< thespaceinvader> yeppers
20090811 22:18:02< CIA-62> crab * r37681 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): added additional debug info to some formula functions, as a test of concept
20090811 22:18:06< thespaceinvader> are the arms about right?  I feel like maybe they're too far apart
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20090811 22:20:15< kitty_> not too far apart, its only a bit unclear if the front arm is besides the body or in front of it. (at the shoulder) and due to foreshortening the upper arm could be a tad shorter.
20090811 22:20:57< Ivanovic> cjhopman, corn, Crab_, deekay, ilor, euschn: one request for the final evals: please be honest with us, especially if something does not satisfy you, we will try our best to use your feedback to be better next year (yes, mention the stuff that was already good, too, since it helps us to know what we should not change)
20090811 22:21:06< Ivanovic> yes, i hope that you already were honest with the mid terms
20090811 22:21:21< Crab_> ok
20090811 22:21:27< Ivanovic> somehow the reports just read too good to really be true, SoC can not be this perfect
20090811 22:21:34< thespaceinvader> kitty_: ok cool
20090811 22:21:42< Ivanovic> and feel free to tell us about any problems (or positive stuff) any time
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20090811 22:21:51< mordante> we also like to learn from it
20090811 22:22:08-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090811 22:22:08< Ivanovic> we ain't perfect in no way
20090811 22:22:30< Ivanovic> we are doing SoC for the 2nd time now and probably make myriads of mistakes, too
20090811 22:23:06< Ivanovic> personally i just prefer to make mistakes only once and learn from them for the next time (yes, learning from mistakes others make is even better, though not always possible)
20090811 22:23:23 * mordante totally agrees with Ivanovic 
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20090811 22:34:36< mordante> I'm off night
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20090811 22:42:38< CIA-62> crab * r37682 /trunk/src/ai/ (12 files in 3 dirs): changed ai::stage::play_turn and ai::stage::do_play_turn to return bool, to prepare for introduction of ministages
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20090811 22:45:54< knotwork> I upgared from Fedora 9 through Fedora 10 to Fedora 11 and mouse skates away from right hand half of wesnoth window, skipping between middle of window and off right hand edge of window.
20090811 22:46:22< knotwork> Fedora 11 changed my resolution from 1024x768 to 1280x960 but no other apps exhibit this behavior
20090811 22:47:02< knotwork> any idea what could/would cause such behavior? I dunno how to do it if it were wanted so dunno where to look for how it is done
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20090811 22:47:17< Soliton> you mean your mouse moves by itself or you can't go to the right at all?
20090811 22:47:50< knotwork> it skips across right hand half, and also the active regions for buttons are off to the left
20090811 22:48:32< knotwork> so I can get into the preferences window but once there can only find ctive regions for the sliders not for the areas left of that that would let me go into other submenus of preferences
20090811 22:49:17< Soliton> are you using fullscreen mode?
20090811 22:49:25< knotwork> it even seems to think the whole window is way left of where it actually is
20090811 22:49:35< knotwork> not fullscreen mode no
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20090811 22:50:16< Soliton> ok, i don't really understand what's going on. can you post a screenshot?
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20090811 22:51:26< knotwork> it doesnt look any different, all that is different is dynamic in mouse movement in that mouse mvoed left to right jumps hard right off window when it hits approx middle of window
20090811 22:51:43< knotwork> and jumps to middle of window when moved onto window from off the right
20090811 22:52:26< knotwork> I dunno how to make a screenshot capturing the image of trhe mouse cursor being far left of the button that is lit by thinkning mouse is over it
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20090811 22:53:01< knotwork> basically mouse seems to think the whole window is much to the left of where it actually is
20090811 22:54:23< Soliton> ok, now i get it.
20090811 22:54:25< knotwork> package install thinks 1.6.2 and 1.6.4 are available but when I tried to install 1.6.2 it said already installed then once I uninstalled 1.6.4 it no longer showed 1.6.2 as available
20090811 22:54:34< Soliton> do you use a colored cursor?
20090811 22:54:39< knotwork> so I reinstalle 1.6.4 and now again it also shows 1.6.2 as available
20090811 22:55:37< knotwork> my cursor is black, but when I fire up wesnoth and place it in wesnoth window it shows as much larger grainy hourglass while starting up and already has the behavior of only going into left half of window
20090811 22:56:08< Soliton> turn show color cursor off under display preferences.
20090811 22:57:02< Soliton> alternatetively put 'colour_cursors="no"' in your preferences file.
20090811 22:57:09< knotwork> when I moved .wesnoth to .wesnoth1.6 it no longer has the big grainy hourglass shape during startup
20090811 22:58:30< knotwork> tht "no" is already in there in the preferences now I moved .wesnoth to .wesnoth1.6
20090811 22:58:59< knotwork> I will try movin old preferences back to .wesnoth and put the no in the new almost empty preferences 1.6 will make
20090811 23:00:16< knotwork> it definitely thinks window extends left of where it actually ends, the large houglass shape is retained well off the left edge of window
20090811 23:01:01< Soliton> it rather shows your mouse cursor somewhere different from where it really is.
20090811 23:01:32< knotwork> it already put the no in there when it created the preferences file
20090811 23:02:05< knotwork> it created with only ten settings and an empty history section
20090811 23:02:13< Soliton> well, you could try with yes. but no idea then.
20090811 23:02:32< Soliton> besides that feature wasnoth doesn't do anything with the cursor.
20090811 23:03:10< knotwork> no visible change
20090811 23:03:45< knotwork> buddy in next room also upgraded to fedora 11 but he went direct from 9 to 11 and has laptop with not so common display type but his works fine
20090811 23:04:04< knotwork> wesnoth is only think I have found that does this though
20090811 23:04:50< knotwork> luckily it was him not me that upgraded fedora specifically to get to newer version of wesnoth
20090811 23:07:17< knotwork> hey! was no change at firsts, but now going back to it I see the cursor is fine! (and coloured) yeehaa, thanks!
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20090811 23:17:10< zookeeper> shadowmaster, did you handle some of the music track metadata taggings at some point? one of tyler's pieces would need committing but i'm not sure if i want to try to handle the ogg conversion and tagging myself
20090811 23:17:58< fendrin> zookeeper: I can do that. Did it for some songs that I commited with amarok, was quite easy.
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20090811 23:22:46< zookeeper> fendrin, ah, ok. that'd be cool, the track's here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=359508#p359508
20090811 23:22:51< zookeeper> you can PM him for details if you need any
20090811 23:23:18< CIA-62> crab * r37683 /trunk/src/ai/composite/ (aspect.hpp stage.cpp stage.hpp): ministages: lazy-initializing proxy for a stage. Needed to allow stages as aspects.
20090811 23:23:32< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37684 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add a new alternate portrait for the Rouser. Update portrait credits, changelogs.
20090811 23:23:33< zookeeper> fendrin, actually, wait a sec, i already got a reply from him myself..
20090811 23:24:41< CIA-62> fendrin * r37685 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/images/portraits/rouser_horn.png: LoW: A goblin rouser that blows a horn contributed by bera.
20090811 23:26:48< zookeeper> fendrin, yeah, nevermind after all, i think he'll try reaching west again first since otherwise he'd have to send you the wav anyway.
20090811 23:26:52< fendrin> thespaceinvader: did you commit the horn rouser as well? Where did you put him?
20090811 23:27:23< zookeeper> fendrin, but maybe you can still get to commit the piece if west posts the ogg version sometime :P
20090811 23:27:41< fendrin> zookeeper: Okay, just pm me or assign a bug report to me if you want me to take care about it.
20090811 23:27:49< fendrin> me me me me me 
20090811 23:28:12< fendrin> I hate me when reading the language I produce in english.
20090811 23:28:33< zookeeper> fendrin, sure
20090811 23:30:08< zookeeper> fendrin, and i think tomorrow you might even get those horn sounds i promised -.-
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20090811 23:31:33< fendrin> thespaceinvader: You did wire him in for an alternate portrait for every rouser? That's fine with me but you should know that kitty rejected that image as an portait because of the wrong position (It doesn't fit for spoken word).
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20090811 23:32:06< fendrin> zookeeper: Take your time. It's fine if they arrive before the release of 1.8 :-)
20090811 23:32:08< thespaceinvader> no, it's just a loose image for use by campaign authors at present
20090811 23:32:42< fendrin> thespaceinvader: Okay, I remove him from the LoW folder.
20090811 23:34:03< thespaceinvader> ok
20090811 23:34:40< CIA-62> fendrin * r37686 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/images/portraits/rouser_horn.png: LoW: The rouser with horn has commited to the wesnoth core, so I remove it from LoW again.
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20090811 23:38:28< fendrin> esr: ping
20090811 23:39:24< esr> fendrin: Hi, I saw your forum message about more LoW dialog for minor characters.  I think I can do that.
20090811 23:40:11< fendrin> esr: Cool, thank you. I also want you to do the genozid speech of the elves/saurians. That is quite delicate.
20090811 23:40:49< fendrin> Please :-)
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20090811 23:50:18< fendrin> thespaceinvader: Shall I commit the rouser corresponding sound effects to the core as well? Would make sense.
20090811 23:50:44< thespaceinvader> is it a horn fanfare of some sort fendrin ?
20090811 23:51:55< corn> Ivanovic: ok
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20090811 23:52:41< fendrin> thespaceinvader: yes
20090811 23:56:13< CIA-62> fendrin * r37687 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/14_Human_Alliance.cfg: LoW 14: Updated the image path for the horn rouser.
20090811 23:56:21< deekay> Crab_: Any idea about when mixing fai recruitment with default AI will be possible like it used to be?
20090811 23:56:50< thespaceinvader> fendrin: i don't havce a prblem with that, as long as the SFX fit the license
20090811 23:56:59< Crab_> deekay: working on it atm, ~2 hours left
20090811 23:57:10< deekay> Crab_: oh cool :)
20090811 23:58:23< deekay> Crab_: I think I'll be asleep then, so please just leave a note (or add it to the wiki) how to use this once it is ready. :)
20090811 23:58:31< Crab_> deekay: most likely I'll finish @tomorrow morning
20090811 23:58:43< deekay> ok, no rush
20090811 23:58:45< deekay> :)
20090811 23:59:09< deekay> Crab_: I'm working on fixed-point arithmetic for formula AI
20090811 23:59:16< Crab_> deekay: good
20090811 23:59:17< deekay> Should be ready tomorrow
20090811 23:59:50< Crab_> deekay: there's a small catch with recruitment 
20090811 23:59:56< deekay> Yes?
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 12 00:00:32 2009