--- Log opened Mon Aug 24 00:00:25 2009
20090824 00:00:45< Aethaeryn> Soliton: idk, if I get enough xp at that point to have 3 shadows, at that point I just want the early-finish gold.
20090824 00:01:08< Aethaeryn> Shadows are better than wraiths in that campaign though, imo, since wraiths are more defensive and die too easily to orcs. 
20090824 00:01:40< Aethaeryn> I think I maybe had two wraiths, both dying, and three shadows, two living.
20090824 00:03:19< CIA-62> crab * r38050 /trunk/src/ai/configuration.cpp: added some changees to ai config upgrade procedure, to allow better ways of mixing new and old syntax
20090824 00:04:07< CIA-62> crab * r38051 /trunk/src/game_events.cpp: [modify_ai] tag support
20090824 00:04:14< CIA-62> crab * r38052 /trunk/src/ai/ (configuration.cpp configuration.hpp manager.cpp): added side number to --log-debug=ai/config info
20090824 00:04:20< CIA-62> crab * r38053 /trunk/data/ (3 files in 2 dirs): ai macros and aliases
20090824 00:04:26< CIA-62> crab * r38054 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg: LoW 2: use new AI syntax for Olurf
20090824 00:04:29< Crab_> fendrin: ^
20090824 00:13:01-!- ilor_ [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit []
20090824 00:24:39-!- PK [n=pk@r74-192-44-206.vctrcmta01.vctatx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 00:36:45-!- allefant [n=allefant@62-47-183-23.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 00:38:36-!- elias [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 00:38:54-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 00:44:40-!- esr [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/esr] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 00:45:51< shadowmaster> awww... Valkier isn't here when I need him
20090824 00:47:06-!- yamokidzu-it [n=kvirc@host160-69-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 00:55:26-!- esr [n=chatzill@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 00:58:56-!- Aethaeryn is now known as MikeJB
20090824 01:03:47< loonycyborg> Soliton: If you installed liblua5.1-0-dev then trunk client could be built on the wesnoth.org box.
20090824 01:04:34< shadowmaster> corn: was the wiki software updated?
20090824 01:06:29< shadowmaster> completely unrelated: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wesnoth.org%2F ; I guess I'll try to fix what I can
20090824 01:13:35-!- MikeJB is now known as Aethaeryn
20090824 01:14:04< fendrin> Crab_: Thank you.
20090824 01:14:15< Crab_> fendrin: what about targets ?
20090824 01:14:27< Crab_> fendrin: you want the trolls to target the elves first ?
20090824 01:14:28< shadowmaster> I wonder if I could convince ettin to look into that validator output
20090824 01:14:31< shadowmaster> ^^
20090824 01:17:14< fendrin> Crab_: The old ai parameters already did that.
20090824 01:18:21< Crab_> fendrin: yes, I know, just doublechecking. and the dwarves ? should they sit back and do nothing, and then actively attack any side which enters their territory ?
20090824 01:18:25< shadowmaster> um there's abuse of ampersands in the homepage.
20090824 01:18:46< shadowmaster> shikadibot: bite Ivanovic
20090824 01:18:50 * shikadibot bites Ivanovic 
20090824 01:20:20< fendrin> Crab_: They may spread out to protect their borders.
20090824 01:20:53< Crab_> fendrin: so 'protect borders first, kill offenders second ?'
20090824 01:21:04< Crab_> fendrin:  and what was the intended purpose of troll side 'caution=0.0   grouping=no' during the nighttime ? make trolls attack as fearlessly as possible during the night ?
20090824 01:22:33< fendrin> Crab_: I don't know if grouping still does anything in the ai. It's a very old thing. But yes, I wanted the trolls to be more aggressive at night since they are chaotic creatures.
20090824 01:23:56< Crab_> fendrin: yes, grouping affects ai_default move_to_targets - movement when the enemy is not away. it makes the ai consider sending even lone units to targets, without trying to form groups.
20090824 01:24:04< Crab_> fendrin: ok, understood. thanks
20090824 01:24:35< Crab_> s/not away/not near
20090824 01:29:44-!- PK [n=pk@r74-192-44-206.vctrcmta01.vctatx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"]
20090824 01:30:58< shadowmaster> what's the correct forum for http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26776 ? Technical Support? Ideas? Writers=
20090824 01:31:06< Soliton> loonycyborg: i've already built it without but sure.
20090824 01:33:00< loonycyborg> That's weird. Lua headers aren't installed on the server in /usr/include
20090824 01:33:08< loonycyborg> Prehaps you've built 1.6?
20090824 01:33:16< Soliton> no.
20090824 01:33:24< Soliton> trunk 38025
20090824 01:35:59< Soliton> ok, looks like git was lying and it was some older revision.
20090824 01:38:19< Soliton> hrm, looks like i need to upgrade boost as well.
20090824 01:38:44< Crab_> fendrin: regarding TODO about {NO_SCOUTS} macro in LoW 2:    {NO_SCOUTS} sets villages_per_scout=0. this leads to ai skipping the algorithm "if we have less scouts than needed to grab neutral villages, please quickly recruit more scouts". there are multiple reasons why it isn't needed in that scenario (no recruits of type 'scout' in troll recruitment list, no neutral villages)
20090824 01:38:55 * loonycyborg totally forgot about that part :(
20090824 01:43:23-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 01:57:21-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 02:02:55-!- allefant [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090824 02:10:13< shadowmaster> scons install is creepy silent
20090824 02:12:10< loonycyborg> verbose=true will make it the opposite of that..
20090824 02:14:56< shadowmaster> I'm already uninstalling wesnoth
20090824 02:15:08< shadowmaster> I hate your game, I don't want it in my machine.
20090824 02:20:57-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@adsl-ppp-0250.yubc.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 02:22:15< Soliton> corn: wesnoth is now installed in /usr/local.
20090824 02:22:28-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090824 02:24:59< CIA-62> crab * r38055 /trunk/src/ai/composite/ (8 files): allow [modify_ai] to work with stages and goals
20090824 02:25:04< CIA-62> crab * r38056 /trunk/data/core/macros/ai.cfg: {AI_NO_SCOUTS} macro
20090824 02:25:09< CIA-62> crab * r38057 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg: LoW 2: make troll side use new ai syntax, make dwarf side target trespassers
20090824 02:27:01< Crab_> fendrin: ^ note the dynamic adding of goals (targets) - as it done using [modify_ai], it works with both new-style and old-style ai syntax of the initial config
20090824 02:28:19-!- xchat_sux [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 02:30:37-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 02:37:35-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit ["Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"]
20090824 02:38:08-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 02:42:37-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 02:46:02-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20090824 02:55:31-!- shikadibot [n=shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit ["Quitting (requested by shadowmaster via C:message)"]
20090824 03:05:16-!- Zarel [i=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 03:13:10-!- shikadibot [n=shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 03:15:01-!- shikadibot [n=shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Client Quit]
20090824 03:29:11-!- xchat_sux is now known as Elvish_Pillager
20090824 03:31:41-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has left #Wesnoth-dev []
20090824 03:31:48-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20090824 03:32:31-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has left #Wesnoth-dev []
20090824 03:32:38-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20090824 03:47:36-!- fabi [n=fabi@f051044141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 03:56:04-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090824 03:58:26-!- cib0 [n=cib@p5DC43279.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 04:00:32-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [No route to host]
20090824 04:01:29-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 04:05:13< corn> Soliton: thanks
20090824 04:12:04-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2c938.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 04:27:42-!- Ivanovic [n=ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090824 04:28:03-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20090824 04:52:43< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: shadowmaster told me to complain to you.
20090824 04:52:56< shadowmaster> try it when he's awake
20090824 04:53:16< shadowmaster> and don't expect him to try to understand what youa re talking about, tell him the full tale and forget about me
20090824 04:53:42< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: I think "wesnoth1.6" both looks ugly and is unstandard. When I compile I compile as "wesnoth-1.6" because it looks better and because more datafolders (at laest for my $HOME directory) have a dash between version numbers.
20090824 04:53:57< Aethaeryn> *least
20090824 04:54:11< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Yeah, but it'll show up in his away-logs.
20090824 04:54:27< Aethaeryn> So he can say "Aethaeryn: No." when he comes back.
20090824 04:55:35< Aethaeryn> Oh well, I compile myself so I'm indifferent to how the main people do it.
20090824 04:55:57< Blarumyrran> I think that is preferrable to "Aethaeryn: What."
20090824 04:56:22< shadowmaster> Blarumyrran: huh.
20090824 04:56:58< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: I also compile myself.
20090824 04:57:36< shadowmaster> It costs me lots of money to find the required body parts when they break though.
20090824 04:57:44< Aethaeryn> The Fedora packagers are slow. They still don't have the new irssi, I think.
20090824 04:57:45< Blarumyrran> Yeah, i just dont see a question
20090824 04:57:48< Aethaeryn> They do things like "testing"
20090824 04:58:11< Aethaeryn> If irssi starts releasing frequently, I may have to switch to compiling it myself, but it usually releases like once every two years or so it seems.
20090824 04:58:26< shadowmaster> I sense... that you don't understand the factors a) security and b) stability and c) real life
20090824 04:58:35< Aethaeryn> I do.
20090824 04:58:52< shadowmaster> maybe we should get you to maintain that package instead :]
20090824 04:59:00< Aethaeryn> But if I a) trust and b) am careful with the package and c) have no real life... :P
20090824 04:59:28< corn> Aethaeryn: does the difference with the dash actually matter..
20090824 04:59:36< Aethaeryn> Eh, I would probably be a good maintainer for the Wesnoth packager because besides 1.4 (which I had just 1.4.0) and 1.5 I pretty much have gotten every release, development included
20090824 04:59:52< Aethaeryn> corn: Eh, I pay attention to details.
20090824 05:00:29< Aethaeryn> I should be an editor or something.
20090824 05:00:39< Aethaeryn> I notice typos in books that pass by real editors, anyway.
20090824 05:00:41< corn> also, as an extremely notable example, python is versioned as python2.x
20090824 05:00:48< corn> ex. python2.4, python2.5
20090824 05:01:00< Aethaeryn> corn: it seems to be both, which is why I said the majority, not all
20090824 05:01:18< Aethaeryn> .gimp-2.4, .gimp-2.6
20090824 05:02:09< Aethaeryn> .gegl-0.0, .gstreamer-0.10, and a bunch of games
20090824 05:02:43< Aethaeryn> those who do not have the dash tend to (yes, python is an exception) only have one number in the version, like .gnome2
20090824 05:02:57< Aethaeryn> It is an issue of taste, though.
20090824 05:03:27< Aethaeryn> Most don't have the version # anyway.
20090824 05:04:07< shadowmaster> there's something familiar in that vurtualruler guy
20090824 05:04:30< shadowmaster> that gecos... that speech pattern :/
20090824 05:14:17-!- silene [n=plouf@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-50-162.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 05:15:27-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 05:47:52-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit []
20090824 06:12:02-!- Blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has quit []
20090824 06:56:30-!- Sirp [n=user@wesnoth/developer/dave] has quit ["leaving"]
20090824 07:26:31< CIA-62> jetryl * r38058 /trunk/data/core/images/units/woses/ (66 files): Shadow updates on the woses.
20090824 07:27:47< CIA-62> jetryl * r38059 /branches/1.6/data/core/images/units/woses/ (66 files): Shadow updates on the woses.
20090824 07:49:13-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090824 07:59:04-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 08:11:54-!- dr_ [n=chatzill@216.144.120.72] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 08:12:15-!- dr_ [n=chatzill@216.144.120.72] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090824 08:50:30-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 08:52:17< euschn> shadowmaster: you were looking for me?
20090824 08:56:24-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit ["Forecast: Partly cloudy with slight chance of Thunderstone (alpha) in the next few weeks."]
20090824 09:02:57-!- Rhonda [n=rhonda@wesnoth/developer/rhonda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090824 09:03:53-!- Rhonda [n=rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 09:07:43-!- Rhonda [n=rhonda@wesnoth/developer/rhonda] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 09:07:53-!- Rhonda [n=rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 09:10:15-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 09:14:17-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 09:40:34-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 09:41:23-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 10:07:56-!- YogiHH [i=d4ca9d15@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 10:08:03< YogiHH> hello
20090824 10:12:33< Ivanovic> moin
20090824 10:13:54< Espreon> Hola.
20090824 10:23:44-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@212.124.172.157] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 10:41:05-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090824 10:44:56-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 10:54:51-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 10:56:02-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 11:00:33-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090824 11:03:13-!- Blueblaze [n=Blueblaz@32.171.240.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 11:03:27-!- Blueblaze [n=Blueblaz@32.171.240.122] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 11:03:29-!- Blueblaze [n=Blueblaz@32.171.240.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 11:04:08-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit ["WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!"]
20090824 11:18:58-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 11:20:03-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 11:49:27-!- Zarel [i=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 12:16:30-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 12:24:36-!- fabi [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 12:25:53-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.138.234] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 12:26:41-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.138.234] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 12:27:35-!- YogiHH [i=d4ca9d15@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
20090824 12:29:03-!- EdB [n=edb@70.12.95-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 12:35:47-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 12:35:52< Crab_> hi
20090824 12:36:23< Ivanovic> ho
20090824 12:38:09< Ivanovic> cjhopman, corn, Crab_, deekay, euschn, ilor, boucman, dfranke, mordante, Sapient, Sirp, YogiHH: i hope you are done with the evals (at least i see that most submitted it) and it is final
20090824 12:38:33< Ivanovic> if it is not final yet, you still have about 8 hours left for final touches
20090824 12:54:44-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit ["leaving"]
20090824 13:03:06-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 13:08:04-!- EdB [n=edb@70.12.95-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 13:30:30-!- YogiHH [i=d4ca9d15@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 13:35:52-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@212.124.172.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 13:42:41-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 13:44:13-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 14:52:59-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 15:07:32-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban] has quit ["Power failu"]
20090824 15:25:21-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090824 15:26:49-!- Baufo [n=thomas@wesnoth/developer/baufo] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 15:27:13-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 15:43:27-!- fendrin [n=fabi@f051092033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 15:43:51< fendrin> hello
20090824 15:44:02< Crab_> hi fendrin
20090824 15:45:11< fendrin> svn update brought new wose animations. exciting
20090824 15:50:58-!- elias [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 15:57:36-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 16:00:28-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 16:02:26< fendrin> Crab_: Scenario 23 (the last one) shows a battle between Kalenz and his former friend Landar. Depending on which advancement tree the player had choosen Landar maybe an Avenger or a Sharpshooter. Depending on unit type Landar would choose totaly different tactics if he is involved in the battle at the first row (What fits his character).
20090824 16:03:56< fendrin> In case of Avenger he might recruit more Units that are able to ambush in the woods and evade the player's forces to fall in his neck.
20090824 16:04:28< Crab_> note that 'battle at the first row' is tricky - ai doesn't yet understand ZoC concepts well, so it's fairly easy to ZoC a single enemy unit. so, the battle might end prematurely because of that (unless some WML trickerly is involved to give him a second chance)
20090824 16:08:52< fendrin> Crab_: I see only 2 solutions. 1) enhance the understanding of ZoC to perfection. 2) The battle can go on without Landar since his fellowers fight on. The later one is hardly to do right story wise (It fit's better if the Antoganist dies last.) So I prefer the 1. :-)
20090824 16:10:50< fendrin> Crab_: Maybe Landar can be brought into the battle if there could be a small but powerfull bunch of units that defend him at all costs (his Leibwache). Landar himself could be adjusted to be not that risky.
20090824 16:11:12-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 16:11:30< Crab_> fendrin: well, we can try and see how it looks like
20090824 16:12:22< Crab_> fendrin: do you have a proper start-of-scenario save for both cases ?
20090824 16:14:43< fendrin> Crab_: No, not for the last version. It has one über major change because Landar is not only able to recruit all kinds of elvish units but the player's army is divided in 3 parts. 2 follow Landar, one part is stall in the player's recruit list.
20090824 16:14:58< fendrin> s/stall/still
20090824 16:15:11< Crab_> ok. is the last version in svn ?
20090824 16:15:16< fendrin> Crab_: jepp
20090824 16:16:10< Crab_> ok. I've done the conversion to new syntax for LoW 2, and I'll fix LoW 3 soon.
20090824 16:16:22< fendrin> Crab_: That is all still part of the Santi's original plan for the campaign.
20090824 16:19:13< fendrin> Crab_: Okay, I will playtest LoW 2 at all difficult levels. Is there a way to play on with a savegame but different difficult level?
20090824 16:19:46< Crab_> fendrin: change the difficulty level in the start-of-scenario save ?
20090824 16:19:59< fendrin> Crab_: Ah, I see.
20090824 16:20:19< Crab_> or just :cl to it
20090824 16:20:50< fendrin> Crab_: I don't have a proper recall list at my hand if I do so.
20090824 16:21:13< Crab_> fendrin: does this matter ? you can always summon some units via debug mode
20090824 16:21:57< fendrin> Crab_: Of course. But how much can I summon? It's very difficult to balance a campaign at it's whole with this technic.
20090824 16:22:38< Crab_> yes. otoh, if you want the scenario to be winnable with minimum starting gold and no recalls...
20090824 16:23:15< Crab_> fendrin: also note the way [modify_ai] is used to add targets from an event. note that it can be used even if the scenario still uses old-style ai syntax.
20090824 16:23:21-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 16:25:53< fendrin> Crab_: The only scenario that can be mastered with no recruits and minimum starting gold should be the first one in a campaign. Maybe on easy that is not true. But I must balance it for every difficult level seperately. And on Medium or Hard...
20090824 16:26:35< fendrin> Crab_: We should convert all to the new syntax. MIxed syntaxes only confuses the reader.
20090824 16:27:26-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 16:28:42< Crab_> fendrin: I'll document the syntax after I add some more capabilities to it. basically, [modify_ai] takes a specific part of AI, and adds/modifies/deletes it.
20090824 16:28:42< Crab_> ok
20090824 16:28:48-!- Baufo [n=thomas@wesnoth/developer/baufo] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 16:28:50< Crab_> fendrin: yes, of course. I was only noting that you can use it already. still, the conversion is easy.
20090824 16:31:20< fendrin> Crab_: Do you see the possibility to code a slf that goes like: All the Island (All Landmass that is surrunded by the river)?
20090824 16:32:46< Crab_> fendrin: I was thinking about it. looks possible (in terms like 'all locations reachable by unit X which cannot pass rivers, standing on Y and ignoring units)
20090824 16:33:46< fendrin> Crab_: Sounds like a good plan.
20090824 16:34:05< fendrin> Crab_: The reachable thing es the one missing in wml.
20090824 16:34:24< Crab_> fendrin: but, It's not a high-priority issue unless its needed somewhere, as LoW 2 already has it done the 'x,y= ' way
20090824 16:35:22< fendrin> Crab_: Yes, it's quite easy since ilor implemented a feature to the editor that can output selected hex fields. That makes it quite easy. But huge.
20090824 16:37:09< fendrin> Crab_: Do you see a problem with not lifting the avoid stay_in_own_land at HARD?
20090824 16:37:32-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 16:37:52< Crab_> fendrin: with whom trespassing ?
20090824 16:37:54< fendrin> Crab_: Because on HARD the play shall deal with the trolls alone. Only the ones that cross the river and attack the dwarf shall be attacked.
20090824 16:38:40< Crab_> ok, understood
20090824 16:39:22< fendrin> Crab_: Should only be a #ifdef sourounding lines 160-164?
20090824 16:40:27< Crab_> ok, I'll try putting #ifndef HARD in there
20090824 16:40:56< Crab_> fendrin: should it be in "Those lying elves have stepped on OUR land! Attack!" part, as well ?
20090824 16:41:34< fendrin> Crab_: We can think about it. 
20090824 16:42:21< fendrin> Crab_: But this should be reversed. On EASY the dwarves only defend their land if the player dares to step on it. At the higher levels the dwarves won't spare them.
20090824 16:43:01< Crab_> fendrin: well, before the elves arrived, what were the dwarves doing with the trolls ?
20090824 16:43:28< Crab_> fendrin: living in a relative peace, as is 'you don't touch my land, I don't touch yours' ?
20090824 16:43:29< fendrin> Crab_: They were disliking each other. But held peace.
20090824 16:43:37< fendrin> Crab_: exactly.
20090824 16:44:36< Crab_> fendrin: won't the dwarven attack on elves (outside dwarven territory) be considered a violation of the dwarven-troll treaty ?
20090824 16:44:37< fendrin> Crab_: But that is not quite true on EASY. To enhance the chance that the trolls realy go for the land at some time. I made them enemies at easy only.
20090824 16:45:13< fendrin> Crab_: no the trolls will consider the dwarves to help them so no break.
20090824 16:46:09< fendrin> Crab_: All of the that should already work or has worked with the old syntax. If you ported that 1:1 there should be no work to be done.
20090824 16:47:07< Crab_> ok, I'll check the old version once more.
20090824 16:47:39< fendrin> Crab_: And I am reading the new one. I should learn to see what is happening.
20090824 16:50:38< Crab_> fendrin: well, I reread the old version, it seems to me that there was no 'On EASY the dwarves only defend their land if the player dares to step on it. At the higher levels the dwarves won't spare them. ' part.
20090824 16:52:02< fendrin> Crab_: No, that is new. We can think about it. Maybe it's even apropriate for MEDIUM. Just to give the player the possibility to sneak some fast units through the dwarf land.
20090824 16:53:03< Crab_> so, you want it like this : EASY: if trolls trespass, dwarves ally with player and go to kill all trolls; if elves trespass, dwarves go kill trespassers but stay on their territory; MEDIUM: if trolls trespass, dwarves go to kill all trespassers but stay on their territory, if elves trespass, dwarves go kill trespassers but stay on their territory.       HARD: if  trolls trespass, dwarves go to kill all trespassers but stay on their territory, if 
20090824 16:53:20< Crab_>   HARD: if  trolls trespass, dwarves go to kill all trespassers but stay on their territory, if elves trespass, dwarves ally with trolls and go kill all elves.   ?
20090824 16:55:58< fendrin> No. On MEDIUM the dwarve will leave their land to kill the trolls as well. but they will only defend their land if the elves trespass.
20090824 16:56:58< Crab_> fendrin: that is somewhat difficult
20090824 16:57:18< Crab_> fendrin: i.e. imagine trolls trespassing first, elves trespassing second
20090824 16:58:15< fendrin> The dwarves will attack all of them. 
20090824 16:58:21< Crab_> fendrin: then, dwarves will have to be enemies of the elves (to defend their land), but, they will have to venture out to kill the trolls as well. so, there's a possibility that they will attack elves outside their territory, if they happen to be in range
20090824 16:58:36< fendrin> And leave their home to do so.
20090824 16:59:21< fendrin> They are quite unstable that little fellows. Easy to bring in rage.
20090824 17:00:40< fendrin> Okay, let's rethink.
20090824 17:00:48< Crab_> ok. if (on hard), the elves trespass first, then the dwarves will go out to troll territory to get them. but, will they be annoyed if trolls step on their territory after that ?
20090824 17:00:56-!- YogiHH [i=d4ca9d15@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090824 17:02:13< fendrin> On easy they dwarves will leave their land and be allied with the elves if the elves have avoided to step on the land but not the trolls. If the elves step on the dwarvish land later on the dwarves will retreat to their own land attack everyone that enters it. That is all on easy.
20090824 17:02:45< Crab_> ok, that's ok
20090824 17:04:03< Crab_> although with a tricky moment (retreat to their own land)
20090824 17:04:48< fendrin> Crab_: Well, you need test cases, don't you ;-) ?
20090824 17:04:56< Crab_> yes
20090824 17:05:31< fendrin> We will bring that campaign in a horrible state. 
20090824 17:05:49< Crab_> fendrin: ok, so that's on easy http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m4eb233bb
20090824 17:05:52< fendrin> Quit good to get all the feedback after 1.8 has been released.
20090824 17:06:34< fendrin> Crab_: exactly
20090824 17:06:59< Crab_> then, what on medium ?
20090824 17:07:19< fendrin> no one trespasses: sit and watch the show, what else?
20090824 17:07:50< fendrin> elves: go for the elves.
20090824 17:08:18< fendrin> elves, then trolls: retreat defend territory
20090824 17:08:31< fendrin> trolls: go for the trolls
20090824 17:08:52< fendrin> trolls, then elves retreat defend territory 
20090824 17:09:03< fendrin> Crab_: does this seem right?
20090824 17:09:10< Crab_> yes
20090824 17:09:23< fendrin> HARD:
20090824 17:09:31< fendrin> no one trespasses: sit and watch
20090824 17:09:46< fendrin> elves: go and kill them
20090824 17:09:57< fendrin> elves then trolls: go and kill both
20090824 17:10:05< fendrin> trolls: go and kill them
20090824 17:10:16< fendrin> trolls then elves: go and kill both
20090824 17:10:26< Crab_> hehe :)
20090824 17:11:00< fendrin> Difficult to say what is easier for the player.
20090824 17:11:07< Crab_> ok, understood. today, I'll try to make it happen.
20090824 17:11:45< Crab_> fendrin: the 'retreat' part is the most trickly.
20090824 17:12:17< fendrin> Crab_: Yes, wouldn't know how to do that.
20090824 17:12:54< Crab_> fendrin: one way to do that is a 'candidate action' stage with 'a candidate action to do an unconditional retreat'
20090824 17:13:11< Crab_> for those units which are outside the territory
20090824 17:13:27< Crab_> and 'avoid' aspect which will prohibit the return
20090824 17:13:33< fendrin> Crab_: The retruit should be "intelligent". 
20090824 17:13:53< Crab_> fendrin: 'the best way to retreat is to kill them all' :)
20090824 17:14:08< fendrin> If you apply the avoid aspect to early you have petrified the units that can't reach "save" land in one turn. 
20090824 17:14:13< Crab_> fendrin: no
20090824 17:14:23< Crab_> fendrin: candidate action can ignore 'avoid'
20090824 17:14:39< fendrin> Crab_: fine
20090824 17:14:54< Crab_> fendrin: ZoCed units are lost, however.
20090824 17:15:11< fendrin> That's the way it goes.
20090824 17:15:14< Crab_> fendrin: they can be made to attack, yes, but they're probably be overwhelmed
20090824 17:15:31-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 17:16:15< fendrin> That means a lot of more prosa for this scenario. 
20090824 17:17:53< Crab_> fendrin: at least one line, for 'retreat to own territory and then defend it.'
20090824 17:18:32< Crab_> and two more, if we want to differentiate between 'defend their territory' and 'go kill someone'
20090824 17:18:36< fendrin> Crab_: I believe the player has to be informed in more detail how the scenarios coding differs from difficult level to difficult level.
20090824 17:19:22< Crab_> yes, keeping a player informed is a good thing 
20090824 17:19:31< fendrin> In some blah between the main characters. On hard: This dwarves look realy angry. I bet they will go after us if we step on thier land.
20090824 17:19:58< Crab_> well, now it's said that 'stepping on dwarven land may lead to bad things'
20090824 17:20:15< fendrin> on easy: The dwarves don't look friendly. They may attack those who step on thier land.
20090824 17:22:25< fendrin> A hint that says: "we can lure the trolls to step on the dwarvish land" is still missing
20090824 17:22:42< Crab_> fendrin: how it's possible to lure the trolls there ?
20090824 17:22:47-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has quit ["Saurian Augur - I'll heal you by 4 hp if you leave next to me"]
20090824 17:23:21< fendrin> Crab_: You place a unit the water. The troll ai will choose the land to water as best attacking position.
20090824 17:23:58< Crab_> fendrin: yes, but this requires cooperation on the part of troll ai :)
20090824 17:24:09< fendrin> There are only a few map positions were this is possible.
20090824 17:24:19< Crab_> fendrin: trolls shall not care about such things ?
20090824 17:24:48< fendrin> Crab_: right, they are in combat kill mode. no more brain left to look for territory ownership.
20090824 17:24:59< Crab_> the description of a great troll says that  he's wise :)
20090824 17:25:28< Crab_> ok
20090824 17:26:33< fendrin> Crab_: Can you tune it so that luring the trolls is more likely?
20090824 17:27:06< Crab_> fendrin: you can change the map a bit
20090824 17:27:19-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@adsl-ppp-2132.yubc.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 17:27:44< Crab_> fendrin: look at the island on 8,20
20090824 17:27:46< fendrin> I did enhance the caution factor. I believed that this would lead the trolls to choice better territory which would be the land of the dwarves maybe. But that didn't realy work.
20090824 17:28:21< Crab_> fendrin: if you move that island a bit to right, then dwarven land will be between troll keep and that island
20090824 17:28:41< Crab_> fendrin: so, if elves occupy this island, someone of the trolls recruits will certanly hit 7,22
20090824 17:29:20< Crab_> caution affects two things: 1) retreat (note: if caution <=0, units will not retreat)    2) movement in face of enemy power projection
20090824 17:29:55< Crab_> i.e. a cautious side will not move in range of multiple enemy units without friendly support.
20090824 17:30:12< fendrin> Crab_: It's already most likely that the troll step on the land of the dwarves. Even without luring. A good desing goal would be the reduce the possibility that the trolls step there by accident but to ease the luring of the trolls there by the player.
20090824 17:30:35< Crab_> fendrin: ok, this is possible to do
20090824 17:30:52-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 17:31:39< fendrin> Crab_: Editing the maps needs repasting the olurfs_land filter.
20090824 17:32:06< Crab_> fendrin: ok, this is not fully needed.
20090824 17:32:52< Crab_> fendrin: since if elves manage to put a unit at somewhere like (8,21), it's almost certanly that the trolls would trespass (the unit will most likely die :( )
20090824 17:33:38< fendrin> Crab_: Maybe that is true with the new ai. The old one was not that easy to lure since trolls are slow and attacked through the water.
20090824 17:34:49< Crab_> fendrin: no, ai doesn't matter there - the point is that the hex at 7,22 is the closest hex to troll keep from 8,21
20090824 17:36:03< fendrin> Crab_: right. but there is no event for walking over terrain. The filter only trigers if the unit ends his turn on land. Such a filter is a wanted FR since years. It must be hard to do.
20090824 17:37:48< fendrin> The trolls often step over the land but they don't hit. At the time a unit can be placed at 8.21. Most trolls are in the north of this location. And the ai will go to that combat are with new recruited units as well.
20090824 17:38:25< fendrin> But it's most likely that a troll steps on the land very early just at the beginning because the route over the land is also the shortest path to kalenz keep.
20090824 17:38:56< Crab_> fendrin: it's easier to abuse this by moving kalenz east at turn 1
20090824 17:39:01< fendrin> A solution would be to make kalenz not the target of the trolls but just units that enter a certain area of the map.
20090824 17:39:25< Crab_> fendrin: yes, this is possible
20090824 17:39:28< fendrin> Crab_: right, I would prefer some work by the player to be done in luring.
20090824 17:40:14< Crab_> fendrin: to do that,  village value and leader_value must be set to 0
20090824 17:40:41< Crab_> note ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/sc1.png  
20090824 17:42:13< fendrin> Crab_: I know. The map was modified by me to allow that.
20090824 17:42:43< Crab_> and there's also 18,11 if player is not lucky
20090824 17:42:52< Crab_> so, probably no need to modify the map further
20090824 17:44:17< fendrin> I hope so.
20090824 17:45:04< fendrin> Crab_: Many people quit playing the campaign because of that scenario. It's tricky.
20090824 17:45:29< Crab_> fendrin: yes, the trolls can quickly kill the player's units, if they are lucky...
20090824 17:46:15< Crab_> and many players don't like losing units in a single turn.
20090824 17:46:21< fendrin> Crab_: If you don't have much gold or no leveled units at hard and the dwarve isn't helping you...
20090824 17:46:56< fendrin> Crab_: It's a good idea to recruit shamans and slow the trolls. but shamans are easy targets for the beasts as well.
20090824 17:55:18-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 17:56:35-!- Blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:02:23< Crab_> fendrin: Kalenz' speed of 5 is a real problem if you try to 'run past them'
20090824 18:02:35< Crab_> since that means '1 water move only'
20090824 18:06:35< fendrin> Crab_: Right. Mostly it's easier to kill the troll and the reachment of the sign to end the battle and gain more early finish bonus isn't an option. That is another desing failure of this scenario. 
20090824 18:07:00< Crab_> fendrin: well, 'run past' is possible. success on 5th try (hard, no recall list)
20090824 18:07:05< fendrin> In my opinion it would be more interresting if it is an alternative worth thinking about.
20090824 18:07:41-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:08:35< fendrin> Crab_: If the map would allow that it makes sense to break the peace with the dwarves from a certain time on the scenario would even be more interresting.
20090824 18:10:07-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:17:54< Crab_> fendrin: the problem is the dwarves get owned by trolls without player's help...
20090824 18:18:29< fendrin> Crab_: That is true. 
20090824 18:19:15< fendrin> But Kalenz should reach the signpost at that time. Or kill the troll leader. 
20090824 18:24:02-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:24:28< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090824 18:26:10-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:27:12< grzywacz> hi
20090824 18:27:32< [Relic]> :)
20090824 18:29:35< Crab_> fendrin: no, not in all cases.
20090824 18:29:51< Crab_> fendrin: dwarves have low income
20090824 18:30:19< Crab_> fendrin: so, if they spend their initial troops poorly, they can become exposed to orcs
20090824 18:31:36< Crab_> fendrin: kalenz is slow. right now, I missed the signpost by 1 turn :)
20090824 18:32:11< fendrin> which difficulty?
20090824 18:32:15< Crab_> fendrin: I waited until trolls trespass, waited until dwarves commit their troops south, then went through right the dwarven keep.
20090824 18:32:18< Crab_> fendrin: hard/no recalls
20090824 18:32:32< Crab_> so, in 16 turns I was near the signpost
20090824 18:32:48< Crab_> with 1 turn remaining to go to it, but olurf was killed :(
20090824 18:33:30< fendrin> The problem is : Give him more gold and he will be to strong if allied with the elves.
20090824 18:38:07< Crab_> fendrin: maybe if the road through the dwarven territory would be more quicker (e.g. a forested path)...
20090824 18:39:17-!- elias [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 18:39:36-!- elias [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:40:11< fendrin> Crab_: Yeah, the scenario could need a map redesign. I didn't do it because redesigning the map was so hard because of the avoid filters.
20090824 18:42:40< Crab_> fendrin: simply changing mountain/hill -> forest terrain doesn't require changing avoid filters...
20090824 18:44:06< Crab_> fendrin: for example, what if we make a nice forested path to the right of olurf's keep ?
20090824 18:44:42< fendrin> Crab_: yes and one that can be used to sneak from the isle in the middle of the river.
20090824 18:45:09< Crab_> fendrin: no, the isle is too near the trolls to be useful.
20090824 18:45:19< fendrin> Crab_: We can think about giving kalenz the quick trait. That would suit him well in his young years.
20090824 18:46:31< Crab_> oh, it seems that I've found a way...
20090824 18:46:31-!- sauron [i=sauron@ip-83-142-116-12.enterpol.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:46:35< sauron> Hi
20090824 18:47:26< fendrin> Crab_: I am away for a bycicle ride. can't say when to return but not that late.
20090824 18:47:30< Crab_> ok
20090824 18:47:30< sauron> I need to contact someone who wrote multiplayer_connect.cpp function void connect::load_game()
20090824 18:48:01< Crab_> fendrin: It seems that I found a relatively safely pass through the dwarves even on current map
20090824 18:48:50< sauron> or at least knows how the function works with multiplayer_connect.cpp  function void connect::process_network_data
20090824 18:49:03-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit []
20090824 18:54:07-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:55:16-!- YogiHH [n=chatzill@c129017.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 18:57:20< Crab_> fendrin: also note that olurf says 'crazy elves, at least they killed a few trolls before they left' - but this might not be true - I finished without killing a single troll :)
20090824 19:02:27-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:05:23-!- Tigge [n=tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:08:41-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit ["WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!"]
20090824 19:12:01-!- yamokidzu-it [n=rainy-it@host190-75-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:14:03-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:20:07-!- Baufo [n=thomas@wesnoth/developer/baufo] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:20:45-!- xchat_sux [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:24:33< YogiHH> afk
20090824 19:26:02-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 19:36:48-!- Sirp [i=97c1dc1b@wesnoth/developer/dave] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:43:13< Crab_> boucman: around ?
20090824 19:49:08-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:52:17-!- Zarel [i=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 19:53:09< Ivanovic> cjhopman, corn, Crab_, deekay, euschn, ilor, boucman, dfranke, mordante, Sapient, Sirp, YogiHH: i hope you are done with the evals (at least i see that most submitted it) and it is final, only one hour is left till the final deadline
20090824 19:53:41< dfranke> yup, submitted on Saturday.
20090824 19:53:49< Sirp> Ivanovic: yes I submitted.
20090824 19:54:10< Ivanovic> i know that all beside the one from cjhopman are submitted
20090824 19:54:17< Ivanovic> just want to make sure that they are *final*, too
20090824 19:54:30< ilor> Ivanovic: submitted, but thanks for the reminder might put some comments there
20090824 19:54:51< ilor> what's upwith cjhopman anyway?
20090824 19:56:29< Sapient> good question; we've only heard once from him since midterm evals
20090824 19:56:31< Ivanovic> family issues and the computer broke down shortly after mid term
20090824 19:56:48-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@adsl-ppp-2132.yubc.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 19:56:56< Ivanovic> stuff that happens sometimes and can't be prevented
20090824 19:57:12< Sapient> if his situation changes I guess we'll find out soon enough
20090824 19:57:40< Ivanovic> jupp
20090824 19:57:54< Ivanovic> corn: what is the status of getting the new stats system online at stats.wesnoth.org?
20090824 19:58:15-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090824 20:09:06< boucman> Ivanovic: done here...
20090824 20:09:11< boucman> Crab_: i'm around now
20090824 20:09:35< CIA-62> crab * r38060 /trunk/src/ai/manager.cpp: fixed a segfault in mthe handling of [modify_ai] tag during replay. This is a temporary but safe fix.
20090824 20:10:28< Crab_> boucman: I have the following problem (temporary fixed in r38060) : there is a [modify_ai] tag which modifies the state of the ai. this tag can be fired from WML event.
20090824 20:11:00< boucman> ok
20090824 20:11:36< Crab_> boucman: this tag makes changes to the *initialized* ai. So, handling this tag requires the ai to initialize.
20090824 20:12:09< Crab_> boucman: initialization requires ai::game_info object, which is set in  playsingle_controller's constructor.
20090824 20:12:12< Crab_> boucman:    replay_controller extends play_controller, playsingle_controller extends play_controller
20090824 20:12:32< boucman> i follow you so far
20090824 20:12:59< Crab_> so, before 38060, [modify_ai] tag in a replay caused a segfault (because ai::game_info was not set by replay_controller)
20090824 20:13:46< Crab_> in r38060 I've done a safe but temporary fix - just disabled handling of modify_ai in replay, since all ai decisions are already done.
20090824 20:13:54< Ivanovic> cjhopman, corn, Crab_, deekay, euschn, ilor: have you already managed to write up a short "what my project was and what was done" text?
20090824 20:14:19< Ivanovic> some time after the official results are announced tomorrow i'd like to post something like this in the forums
20090824 20:15:15< ilor> Ivanovic: I have a bit of that in my wiki page, but it was more aimed at Mordante. I can write up something more user-friendly
20090824 20:15:18< Crab_> boucman: this fixes the problem for today. but, it'll break things if there'll be a way for the WML\lua to 'read' the state of the AI.
20090824 20:15:26< boucman> keep in mind that this text should be non-dev oriented...
20090824 20:15:34< Ivanovic> ilor: something short and user friendly is a great thing
20090824 20:15:50< boucman> hmm
20090824 20:16:07< Ivanovic> (keep in mind that there are six students (okay, cjhopman currently MIA) so it will be *long* if everybody has a whole page)
20090824 20:16:29< boucman> Crab_: ok, I understand the problem...
20090824 20:16:35< Crab_> boucman: so, there is need for a design decision. Either we need to run fully initialized AIs in the replay, or we need to prohibit the covert transfer of information from the AI to WML. (transfer via putting something to replay is ok)
20090824 20:16:35< zookeeper> Sapient, any idea if/when you'll fix [object] duration=level not working atm?
20090824 20:16:41< zookeeper> ( http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26793 )
20090824 20:16:54< Crab_> (transfer via polling the state of the AI is not ok)
20090824 20:17:05< boucman> Crab_: remind me why we don't initialize AI at game start unconditionally ?
20090824 20:17:29< Crab_> boucman: it's the replay
20090824 20:17:50< noy> zookeeper: I've always wished that holy water created a twinned weapon of arcane
20090824 20:17:51< Crab_>   replay_controller extends play_controller, playsingle_controller extends play_controller, ai init is done via playsingle_controller 
20090824 20:18:30< Sapient> zookeeper: I wasn't aware that it was broken
20090824 20:18:34< Crab_> boucman: so, the fact that the ai::interface's are lazily initialized doesn't matter here - what matters is that ai::manager is not initialized by replay_controller.
20090824 20:18:45< Sapient> I can take a look at it maybe over the weekend
20090824 20:18:48-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@adsl-ppp-1246.yubc.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 20:18:55< Sapient> does duration=forever still work?
20090824 20:19:21< boucman> Crab_: could you save the result of "ai polling" within the replay ?
20090824 20:19:35< Crab_> boucman: yes, transfer of info via replay is ok
20090824 20:20:29< zookeeper> Sapient, you were aware, you've just forgotten ;) we've talked about it before
20090824 20:20:44< zookeeper> Sapient, yeah, i think it does
20090824 20:20:48< Crab_> boucman: in the replay, some things are 'simulated', and some things are 'read from replay'. My question is about 'into what category the state of the ai falls?'
20090824 20:20:56< zookeeper> but IIRC duration=level has been broken for quite a while now
20090824 20:21:18< zookeeper> at least in the way that they disappear on advancement
20090824 20:21:50-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 20:22:00< Crab_> fendrin: see ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/LoW2_Run_Replay.gz
20090824 20:22:00< boucman> my instinct would be to put it in the "read from replay" but in that case, it''s trumped by "whatever is simplest for you to implement" i can't se any reason not to load the full AI except it's a heayweight solution
20090824 20:22:33< boucman> but if you have to implement lot of specific code for replay instead of just reusing AI code, it might not be a good idea to save the results of polling
20090824 20:22:50< Crab_> boucman: c++ code changes more frequently than replay format..
20090824 20:23:03< Crab_> boucman: so, I prefer 'saving the things in the replay'
20090824 20:23:09< boucman> your call
20090824 20:23:15< Crab_> ok, thanks.
20090824 20:28:33< Aethaeryn> uh, the character limit for add-ons is 21?
20090824 20:28:50< Aethaeryn> Is there a particularly strong reason for that exact amount?
20090824 20:30:05< Soliton> sauron: what about that function?
20090824 20:31:10< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: regarding the "default name for userdata on *nix": uhm, who cares?
20090824 20:31:26< shadowmaster> nobody oes
20090824 20:31:33< Ivanovic> that is: everyone who does probably knows the params for the build tools to fix it themselves
20090824 20:31:36< shadowmaster> *does . He's a padantic guy ;)
20090824 20:32:08< shadowmaster> talking about pedantic people, uh, Ivanovic did you read what I mentioned last night about the front page and ampersands?
20090824 20:32:38< Ivanovic> no
20090824 20:33:03< shadowmaster> okay. You are using ampersands in URLs without converting them to SGML/XML identities such as &amp;
20090824 20:33:15< shadowmaster> that's it.
20090824 20:35:29< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: I care, but it's a little thing and I build it myself anyway
20090824 20:35:39< Aethaeryn> Just curious about reasoning
20090824 20:35:59< Aethaeryn> but I am still curious abotu the reason behind 21 characters, because it affects more than the userdata folder name
20090824 20:36:27< Ivanovic> the reason is that IIRC Soliton once upon the time wanted to introduce a split for the default userdata dir
20090824 20:37:08< Ivanovic> ah, that is *really* easy: the dialog ingame has to work
20090824 20:37:17 * Soliton would have actualy gone with -$VERSION. wasn't me who did the change though. :-)
20090824 20:37:22< Ivanovic> and there is only limited space on small resolutions
20090824 20:37:28< Ivanovic> Soliton: okay, sorry, thought it was you
20090824 20:37:33< Ivanovic> no idea who has done it then
20090824 20:37:49< Soliton> suooko
20090824 20:37:56< Soliton> suokko*
20090824 20:38:55< Ivanovic> ahhhhhh
20090824 20:40:45< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: and the limit is there to prevent some users from writing complete novels as name of the addon though only up to 21chars *can* be shown
20090824 20:43:55< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: yes, but i'm wondering about 21
20090824 20:44:02< Aethaeryn> Can it be raised to 22 or 23 for instance?
20090824 20:44:08< Aethaeryn> 21 seems to cut off some potential names
20090824 20:44:29< Aethaeryn> It seems only one (and some short two two four) word titles work with the current system
20090824 20:45:29< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: set your system to 800x600 and have a look at the addon download dialog
20090824 20:45:42< Ivanovic> you will see that there is just NO space for a single extra letter
20090824 20:46:16< Ivanovic> so pleading for extra space does not really help
20090824 20:47:16< loonycyborg> Wesnoth's font is not monospace. So it depends on the text whether 21 chars is enough :P
20090824 20:58:39-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 20:58:45< fendrin> re
20090824 20:59:09< Crab_> fendrin: see the replay (update to r38060 before that)
20090824 20:59:23< fendrin> Crab_: already compiling
20090824 21:02:30< corn> Ivanovic: still working on it, I imported the table structures last night
20090824 21:02:51< Ivanovic> corn: okay
20090824 21:04:18-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 21:04:57-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:10:20< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: 800x600 isn't very common anymore... but I'd say *one* extra character could be found?
20090824 21:10:46< Aethaeryn> I have a widescreen laptop, and a REALLY widescreen desktop monitor... Wesnoth looks SO tiny with these small screen support
20090824 21:10:53< Aethaeryn> it needs to be more scaleable.
20090824 21:11:01< Aethaeryn> Why not have a flexible character limit?
20090824 21:11:14< Aethaeryn> 21 characters for 800x600, 26 for the rest, or something
20090824 21:11:30< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: because some f***ing content creators *DO WRITE* complete novels in the name part
20090824 21:11:59< fendrin> Crab_: does it end at turn 15?
20090824 21:12:03< Ivanovic> and they would continue doing so especially if they saw the complete 500chars on their 2560x1600 screen
20090824 21:12:08< fendrin> The game does not continue to linger mode.
20090824 21:12:10< YogiHH> back
20090824 21:12:16< Crab_> fendrin: no, there was another turn 16 where I moved to to end
20090824 21:12:30< fendrin> Crab_: Then it's stuck again
20090824 21:12:44< Crab_> fendrin: no, all is ok. the replay *ends* on turn 15
20090824 21:12:52< Crab_> fendrin: I misunderstood *it*
20090824 21:13:04-!- sauron [i=sauron@ip-83-142-116-12.enterpol.pl] has quit []
20090824 21:13:08< Crab_> fendrin: the game ended on turn 16, the replay I showed you ends on turn 15
20090824 21:13:28< fendrin> Crab_: Okay, Nice solution to the game. Quick and dirty.
20090824 21:13:44< Crab_> fendrin: that's hard more, no recalls.
20090824 21:13:50< Crab_> s/more/mode
20090824 21:14:45< Crab_> fendrin: generally, if done right, only the 'dwarves dying too quick' can stop this.
20090824 21:14:46< fendrin> It's not a good solution for the campaign since you don't get any leveled units through and olurf doesn't so as well. Olurf's army is stored and recalled at later scenarios.
20090824 21:15:10< Crab_> fendrin: well, why the player should care for that **ing dwarf at this point ?
20090824 21:15:24< fendrin> :-)
20090824 21:15:48< Crab_> fendrin: note that the dwarf lies at the end with 'at least they felled some trolls'
20090824 21:16:01< fendrin> If the player plays wisely he shouldn't level landar since he is going to betray kalenz either :-)
20090824 21:16:29< Crab_> fendrin:no, why the player should know about his betrayal ? 
20090824 21:16:42< Crab_> fendrin: and about the betrayal of his own units, too :)
20090824 21:17:03< Crab_> fendrin: in any case, making kalenz 'quick' will make it even safer
20090824 21:17:53< fendrin> Crab_: So quick is a good or a bad idea?
20090824 21:18:13< Crab_> fendrin: yes, it's a good idea, imo
20090824 21:18:52< fendrin> It also encourages the player to use kalenz in the first row.
20090824 21:19:03< Crab_> fendrin: we can remove 'resilient' (and grant him extra hitpoints instead) 
20090824 21:19:21< Crab_> fendrin: to encourage the 'nonsaveloading' player to use kalenz in the first row
20090824 21:19:57< fendrin> why not remove strong?
20090824 21:20:42< Crab_> fendrin: as you wish
20090824 21:20:57< Crab_> fendrin: I prefer 'remove resilient but grant bonus hitpoints'
20090824 21:21:12< Crab_> fendrin: but, if you prefer removing strong, that's good too
20090824 21:23:14< fendrin> I thought about putting the trolls stronghold more to the south inside the mountains.
20090824 21:24:04< Crab_> fendrin: this would make 'cross through dwarven territory at alternate route, from that island' solution more viable, as well
20090824 21:24:34< fendrin> okay, I change the map and commit it.
20090824 21:25:04< Crab_> ok
20090824 21:26:02< Crab_> fendrin: personally, I think that all the 'lose if he dies' heroes should have extra hitpoints. to decrease need to either 'keep them in the back' or go 'saveload style' 
20090824 21:27:20< fendrin> Crab_: I would like to have some kind of special feature for cleodil as well. But I don't have a unit idea.
20090824 21:27:33< fendrin> s/unit/unique
20090824 21:29:26< Soliton> if you increase the HP of crucial units it just means the player will keep them longer at the front line before getting them killed. ;-)
20090824 21:30:27< Crab_> Soliton: yes and no. 39 hp kalenz can be killed in 1 turn by L2 troll, if said troll is a bit lucky
20090824 21:31:01< Crab_> this means that if a player wants to play without save/loads, he *has* to keep Kalenz in the back, if any trolls are present
20090824 21:31:57< CIA-62> fendrin * r38061 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/02_Hostile_mountains.map: LoW 02: Moved the enemy keep more inside the southern mountains.
20090824 21:32:35< Crab_> if Kalenz had, say +20 hp (up to 59 at level 1), he would at least have a lot less chance to die-in-1-turn
20090824 21:32:54< fendrin> Crab_: +20 is much to much.
20090824 21:32:59< fendrin> We can talk about 5
20090824 21:33:21< Crab_> fendrin: why +20 is too much ?
20090824 21:33:59< Soliton> Crab_: at night maybe.
20090824 21:34:37< fendrin> Crab_: because it feels strange. The unit had to be lifted in all it's stats not just the hitpoints to reflect that much gain in power.
20090824 21:35:00< Crab_> fendrin: well, it's not a gain in power, it's more like a gain in surviveability...
20090824 21:35:13< fendrin> Elves are skinny. A elve in level one that has such much hitpoints would also do much more damage and could shoot out of it's arse.
20090824 21:36:10< fendrin> Crab_: maybe a little bit more hitpoints some increasement in the resistances. And a extra feature. 
20090824 21:37:32< Soliton> actually a level 2 troll can not kill kalenz at all even at night.
20090824 21:38:55< Soliton> i support giving him 6 moves though since campaign heroes with 5MP are annoying.
20090824 21:39:32< fendrin> Soliton: Right, that decision is already through. We will make him quick instead of strong.
20090824 21:39:32-!- crimson_pinvin [n=ben@138.34.8.102] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:40:36-!- crimson_pinvin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Client Quit]
20090824 21:41:02< fendrin> Soliton: But only because he is already resilient. The quick trait will reduce his hitpoints again. That could bring him near the damage that a troll can deal.
20090824 21:41:49< fendrin> Crab_: also it would be much more interresting if the ai recruited more lvl1 trolls.
20090824 21:41:49-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:42:24< Crab_> fendrin: aren't L3 troll warriors more effective ?
20090824 21:42:31< Soliton> yes, it will. i didn't say anything about the quick trait but yeah if you want to do it that way some resistance boost would be good.
20090824 21:43:00-!- kitty__ [n=kitty@e180197035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:43:44-!- crimson_pinvin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:43:47< fendrin> Crab_: No, it's the mix that does it. You have more powerfull units but less of them. They are easier to control. By stunning and zocking and what else.
20090824 21:44:38< fendrin> Crab_: Let's steal the dwarven only trait steelfeast or what it is called. quick and steelfeast.
20090824 21:44:49< fendrin> steedfeast
20090824 21:45:18< Crab_> fendrin: it does nothing with 0% resists
20090824 21:45:48< Crab_> fendrin: and it's not dwarven only - merman have a unit with it, too
20090824 21:46:03< Soliton> Crab_: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26791 another AI freeze, i guess?
20090824 21:46:24< Crab_> Soliton: yes. should be dead in trunk.
20090824 21:46:50< Soliton> we should probably try to get 1.7.4 out soon.
20090824 21:47:43< corn> Ivanovic: can you restart the apache instance on the server?
20090824 21:47:53< corn> there is a weirdness with mod_proxy
20090824 21:48:07< corn> where if you try to make a request while the underlying service is not working, it will stop all requests in the future
20090824 21:48:11< corn> so that is what happened to me
20090824 21:48:36< Ivanovic> Rhonda, Soliton: can one of you do it?
20090824 21:48:57< Ivanovic> i am not sure how to force restart a deamon/service on debian
20090824 21:48:59-!- knotwork_ [n=markm@hlfxns01bbg-142177234018.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:49:04< corn> /etc/init.d/apache restart
20090824 21:49:07< corn> same as gentoo ;)
20090824 21:49:20< corn> s/apache/apache2/
20090824 21:50:02 * Ivanovic trusts in Rhonda and Soliton that they know what they are doing and can assist you
20090824 21:50:04< Ivanovic> ;)
20090824 21:50:06< corn> ok
20090824 21:50:18< Ivanovic> Soliton: my current plan for 1.7.4 is sunday
20090824 21:50:57< fendrin> Ivanovic: When do you plan string and feature frezze for 1.8 ?
20090824 21:51:05-!- Aethaeryn is now known as Aeth
20090824 21:51:17< Ivanovic> fendrin: when are you done with LoW?
20090824 21:51:18-!- Aeth is now known as Aethaeryn
20090824 21:52:24< fendrin> Ivanovic: That late?
20090824 21:52:47< Ivanovic> i'd like to know your estimate before setting a timeline...
20090824 21:53:01< Soliton> corn: apache restarted.
20090824 21:53:10< Ivanovic> if you say "this will take months" then the changes will have to wait and the stringfreeze start really soon
20090824 21:53:20< Ivanovic> if you say "should be done withhin a week" then i will wait
20090824 21:53:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20090824 21:54:12< Crab_> fendrin: another solution: make Kalenz start with 20/40 hp at LoW 1
20090824 21:54:20< kitty__> I get strange visual glitches since 1.7.3 like smears and/or stripes - http://imagebin.ca/img/aej7nGUS.jpg is that a known issue?
20090824 21:54:57< Crab_> fendrin: that will give a good player a excellent chance to levelup him , giving ~15 extra hitpoints
20090824 21:55:24< fendrin> Crab_: you meant s/hp/xp ?
20090824 21:55:25< Crab_> 'start with 20/40 xp'
20090824 21:55:26< Crab_> yes
20090824 21:55:55< Soliton> kitty__: haven't heard of it. looks pretty weird.
20090824 21:56:07< boucman> that's weird...
20090824 21:56:08-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 21:56:08-!- crimson_pinvin is now known as crimson_penguin
20090824 21:56:19< boucman> i have no idea how we could do that even if we wanted to...
20090824 21:57:00< fendrin> kitty__: I once had a graphic adapter that wasn't cooled enough. It produced such images on hot summer days.
20090824 21:57:25< Crab_> fendrin: this means that player will still have to work somewhat towards advancing him, and he'll be more useful either as a leader either as a frontline warrior
20090824 21:57:31-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 21:57:56< kitty__> fendrin: it only happens with wesnoth and only in the program's window... but if nobody else has this problem it won't be much of a problem
20090824 21:58:43-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@wesnoth/developer/dfranke] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 21:59:03-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 22:00:19-!- ABCD_ [n=ABCD@gentoo/contributor/abcd] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 22:01:37-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit []
20090824 22:02:00-!- cornmander [n=cornmand@cornmander.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 22:02:12-!- fabi [n=fabi@f051092033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 22:02:32-!- Netsplit lindbohm.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: elias, lizard_r, ABCD, corn, fendrin, boucman
20090824 22:02:32< cornmander> sorry, connection problems
20090824 22:02:37-!- knotwork [n=markm@hlfxns01bbg-142177233104.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 22:02:43-!- cornmander is now known as corn
20090824 22:03:24< fabi> Crab_: When are we done with LoW?
20090824 22:03:36< corn> Soliton: hm, that doesn't seem to have fixed my problem. 127.0.0.1:9090 is locally accessible but not being forwarded properly by apache to http://wesnoth.org/wesstats
20090824 22:04:37-!- Netsplit over, joins: elias, fendrin, lizard_r, boucman, ABCD
20090824 22:04:44< Crab_> fabi: so far, we have touched LoW 2 and LoW 3. I expect to finish (mostly) with LoW 2 today, and try to finish LoW 3 tomorrow.
20090824 22:04:57< boucman> could be a memory corruption, but usually they result in crashes
20090824 22:04:57-!- ABCD [n=ABCD@gentoo/contributor/abcd] has quit [No buffer space available]
20090824 22:06:29-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 22:06:48< mordante> servus
20090824 22:06:55< corn> hello
20090824 22:06:57< fabi> hi mordante, you have mail
20090824 22:07:20< Crab_> fendrin: so, what do you thing about that '20/40 starting XP for Kalenz at LoW 1' ?
20090824 22:07:21< mordante> hi fabi 
20090824 22:07:49< boucman> Crab_: you might want to add a call for good player to replay LoW in the RELEASE_NOTES file
20090824 22:07:51< mordante> fabi, yeah thanks already enjoyed the first parts
20090824 22:07:54< fabi> Crab_: No. I don't like it.
20090824 22:07:54< boucman> so it's in the announcement
20090824 22:08:02< Crab_> fabi: ok
20090824 22:08:14< boucman> also ask to post replays on the forum
20090824 22:08:19< Crab_> boucman: : the changes are not fully done yet
20090824 22:08:29< fabi> Crab_: I will try to make him slightly more resistent and quicker.
20090824 22:08:32< boucman> will they be for next 1.7
20090824 22:08:35< Crab_> fabi: ok
20090824 22:08:57< Crab_> boucman: for a few scenarios - yes. depends on when that 'next 1.7' is.
20090824 22:09:04-!- ettin [n=jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has quit ["leaving"]
20090824 22:09:07< Soliton> corn: it's bound to localhost.
20090824 22:09:17 * fabi wonders if anybody has a good idea for a modification that fit Cleodil.
20090824 22:09:33< Crab_> fabi: resurrect kalenz once per game ? :)
20090824 22:09:53< fabi> Crab_: I already thought about resurrection a unit once per game.
20090824 22:10:15< Crab_> fabi: full heal a unit once per game ?
20090824 22:10:20 * boucman doesn't know the campaign
20090824 22:10:28< boucman> who is she (in a couple of words)
20090824 22:11:10< fabi> boucman: The Legend of Wesmere. She is an elvish Shyde. The girlfriend of Kalenz. Grandmother of Chantal from HttT.
20090824 22:11:13< corn> Soliton: that should be ok? check out /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/000-wesnoth:30
20090824 22:11:44-!- ABCD_ is now known as ABCD
20090824 22:12:44< fabi> Crab_: But which unit to full heal?
20090824 22:12:55< Crab_> fabi: the unit which the player selects
20090824 22:13:38< Crab_> right-click a unit, select a menu item like  'ask cleodil to heal this unit'
20090824 22:14:19< Crab_> fabi: again, this decreases the need to save-load (since it can undo bad luck somewhat)
20090824 22:16:21< boucman> Crab_: once per game  isn't very powerfull... how powerfull should she be ?
20090824 22:17:17< Crab_> boucman: it doesn't need to be powerful, it should just feel 'special'
20090824 22:17:24< fabi> boucman: It's not a question of powerfull. It's should enrich the game by adding an extra strategic element to the hand of the player.
20090824 22:17:53< kitty__> thespaceinvader: why did you change the logogrsms on the burner's belt? now they read flame, firebreath, fire - that doesn't make a lot of sense. and you put them upside down...
20090824 22:17:54< Crab_> boucman: you can make it 'right click on cleodil and select 'heal all nearby friendly units in a radius of X', once per game.
20090824 22:18:01< fabi> Like: What special über move can I do this turn because I have that lovely unit.
20090824 22:18:07< Crab_> boucman: where X is your definition of 'powerful enough' :)
20090824 22:18:57< thespaceinvader> kitty__: i'm happy to change them - but I'd like to keep the big one in the middle saying fire breath, and keep it point up if possible
20090824 22:19:38< thespaceinvader> i'm at your disposal as to the logograms - i can't really read them, so I put in what i thought were the appropriate two from the new set you sent alongside the original one
20090824 22:19:59< kitty__> hmm, point up in the middle would mean a total of five or more or only a single one...
20090824 22:20:10< kitty__> the last set said fire and flame
20090824 22:20:11< Soliton> corn: since the access is from the proxy module i guess that is indeed fine. is the proxy module loaded?
20090824 22:20:27-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090824 22:21:12< corn> yes. it seems to be
20090824 22:21:41< corn> can you check the error log if it gives any messages regarding the wesstats url?
20090824 22:22:09< Soliton> corn: check /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/proxy.conf
20090824 22:22:15-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090824 22:22:37< Soliton> corn: [warn] proxy: No protocol handler was valid for the URL /wesstats/. If you are using a DSO version of mod_proxy, make sure the proxy submodules are included in the configu
20090824 22:22:41< Soliton> ration using LoadModule.
20090824 22:22:50-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090824 22:23:37< corn> try enabling proxy_http as well
20090824 22:24:38< Soliton> corn: there is a proxy directive denying all in that file.
20090824 22:24:59< corn> ProxyRequests Off?
20090824 22:25:14< Soliton> nevermind, i'll try and change it.
20090824 22:25:27< mordante> Aethaeryn, Wesnoth should still be able to run nicely at 800x600, but the addon dialog will be redesigned at some point and longer names should be possible then
20090824 22:25:31< corn> I have the same directive in my configuration on my server and it worked fine, so that is probably not it
20090824 22:26:31< fabi> Crab_: The keep move to the south does make the trick with steping kalenz to the right pretty deterministic. The trolls try to cross straight through Olurf's keep.
20090824 22:26:57< Soliton> corn: nevertheless it'd be good to not spread the configuration all over the place.
20090824 22:27:05< Crab_> fabi: yes. should it be prevented ?
20090824 22:27:52< CIA-62> mordante * r38062 /trunk/src/ai/composite/engine.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20090824 22:28:22< fabi> Crab_: Yes. Can you commit what you have for me to playtest?
20090824 22:28:24< Soliton> corn: ok, works now.
20090824 22:28:27< CIA-62> mordante * r38063 /trunk/src/ai/composite/aspect.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20090824 22:28:34< Crab_> fabi: not yet
20090824 22:28:39< Soliton> corn: proxy_http module was not enabled.
20090824 22:28:45< corn> Soliton: ok, thanks
20090824 22:29:25< boucman> is it http://wesnoth.org/wesstats/ ?
20090824 22:30:00< Soliton> yeah.
20090824 22:30:18< Soliton> corn: why is the proxying needed, btw?
20090824 22:32:17< corn> Soliton: the application is not running straight through apache + a python handler, it uses a seperate http server instead
20090824 22:32:22< corn> it's how the app framework is coded
20090824 22:32:41< boucman> 404 when I click on any link (probably a known problem, but just mentionning)
20090824 22:33:02< corn> boucman: yep, still a work in progress
20090824 22:36:47< corn> Soliton: sometime in the future I will change the code to use apache + mod_wsgi but it will probably be a lot of work
20090824 22:37:59< Soliton> ok, just make sure the proxy can not be abused then it's fine as it is. :-)
20090824 22:38:19< fabi> Crab_: Let's make him Dim unless he finds some sort of mushrooms in a scenario.
20090824 22:38:22< corn> ok
20090824 22:38:44< mordante> kitty__, thespaceinvader for unit portraits that shouldn't be mirror, will there be a second portrait for them in the future?
20090824 22:39:05< Crab_> fabi: what's Dim ?
20090824 22:39:08< thespaceinvader> i've not done any, mordante, I don't know
20090824 22:39:14< kitty__> mordante: probably not, that wouldn't be worth the work
20090824 22:39:40< fabi> Crab_: Needs 20% more xp to level. It's a goblin only special bad trait.
20090824 22:40:08< Crab_> fabi: whom ? big troll ?
20090824 22:40:09< mordante> so we have units that can only be shown on one side
20090824 22:40:55< kitty__> not many, but yes
20090824 22:41:33< fabi> Crab_: No for Kalenz. Was meant as a joke. A bad one I submit.
20090824 22:41:39< Crab_> ah
20090824 22:42:05< mordante> I know it won't be many, just need to think how to handle it if the user wants a left hand image and there's only a right hand one...
20090824 22:42:21< mordante> especially if two portraits are shown at the same time
20090824 22:42:54< kitty__> two portraits at the same time? is that possible? and where is that used?
20090824 22:43:23< CIA-62> cornmander * r38064 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/controllers/ (barview.py killview.py lineview.py pieview.py root.py): Renamed GAMES to GAMES_SP since it only stores singleplayer game data.
20090824 22:43:45< mordante> kitty__, not yet, but finally started to work on that part of the code
20090824 22:44:15 * fabi hurrays for that feature.
20090824 22:44:27< kitty__> nice!
20090824 22:44:33< noy> OMG TWO PORTRAITS!
20090824 22:44:45-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090824 22:44:49< mordante> that's why I'm wondering about it ;-)
20090824 22:44:51< corn> boucman: no more 404s :)
20090824 22:44:56 * noy shoots off some fireworks.
20090824 22:45:00-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 22:45:20< corn> right now 404s are appearing instead of the correct 500 internal server error messages... not sure why that is happening
20090824 22:46:08< Soliton> killmaps still 404.
20090824 22:46:15< boucman> corn: still for kill map :)
20090824 22:46:40< corn> yep, the error there is that that I set Den of Onis as the default map to be viewed, but there are no tilesets generated on the server yet
20090824 22:46:43< kitty__> mordante: if it is only one it should override it and display it to the right nevertheless, if it is two and only one musn't be mirrored the other one should be mirrored, if both it shouldn't be possible two display two. something like that?
20090824 22:46:57< fabi> kitty__: What kind of Portraits don't mirror?
20090824 22:47:08-!- elias [n=allefant@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090824 22:48:22< CIA-62> cornmander * r38065 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/templates/header.html: Updated link to wesnoth.org instead of my staging site.
20090824 22:48:27< kitty__> fabi: the fem white mage, the shock trooper, perhaps one or two more. only for aesthetic reasons, they were drawn before mirrroring was an issue. the new ones are generally done mirrorable
20090824 22:49:10< fabi> kitty__: is this about lightsources?
20090824 22:49:39< corn> any CSS gurus around? I have a black line above the navigation bar on http://www.wesnoth.org/wesstats/ and I don't know why it happens
20090824 22:49:55< kitty__> fabi no, mostly tiny symmetry issues that are only visible as flaws when mirrored
20090824 22:50:28< Aethaeryn> mordante: longer names possible then... is that late 1.7 and 1.8?
20090824 22:50:38< Aethaeryn> the add-on in question is destined for 1.7 and 1.8 branch anyway
20090824 22:51:39< mordante> kitty__, yeah something like that, the only problem is the WML author might not know which two units (s)he wants to display
20090824 22:52:06< mordante> since sometimes the unit who does an action is displayed, which depends on the user
20090824 22:52:18< mordante> Aethaeryn, post 1.8
20090824 22:52:57< ilor> corn: #header seems to have a  border-bottom: 1px solid #000; and for some reason theres empty space under the navbar
20090824 22:55:07< ilor> corn: ah, I got it. you put the navbar inside the header, on other pages it's just below it
20090824 22:55:56-!- kitty__ [n=kitty@e180197035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["bye"]
20090824 22:58:13< corn> ilor: thanks, will fix now
20090824 22:59:09-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090824 23:01:17< CIA-62> cornmander * r38066 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/templates/header.html: Fixed CSS bug - moved nav bar out of header div.
20090824 23:04:07< Aethaeryn> mordante: are you sure 1 character extra would be painful?
20090824 23:04:29< Aethaeryn> Thunderstone Campaign is 22 characters, and looks ugly if abbreviated in any manner.
20090824 23:04:35< Aethaeryn> It would appear as Thunderstone Campaig
20090824 23:05:14< mordante> Aethaeryn, yes it barely fits on 800x600 and if we add one now, tomorrow somebody needs another one and so on
20090824 23:05:40< mordante> why add the Campaign? there's a field to add the type
20090824 23:08:20< corn> Soliton: /srv/www/html/wesstats is actually an svn checkout. should it be under /usr/src/svn-checkouts?
20090824 23:10:43< Soliton> yes, better put it there and make a symlink.
20090824 23:10:49< Aethaeryn> mordante: because there's multiple Thunderstone add-ons
20090824 23:11:06< Aethaeryn> calling them all Thunderstone, or even one of them Thunderstone, would be confusing
20090824 23:11:31< corn> Soliton: you will have to do it, I don't have permission to modify /usr/src/svn-checkouts
20090824 23:11:58< Aethaeryn> at any rate, 800x600 is an extremely old screen resolution
20090824 23:12:30< Aethaeryn> even my old computers have 1024x720 or whatever it is
20090824 23:12:34-!- ettin [n=jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 23:12:43< mordante> and still used, in netbooks etc
20090824 23:13:28< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: Tell that to my eeepc which uses 640x480 :P
20090824 23:14:16< Aethaeryn> which is why the character limit should be flexible
20090824 23:14:34< mordante> no that would be horrible
20090824 23:15:02< mordante> a developer with a large screen has a 40 char limit and never considers some people may only see 20 of them
20090824 23:15:29< mordante> the limit should be the same for all sizes
20090824 23:15:46< Aethaeryn> I don't know
20090824 23:16:01< mordante> the dialogs should be changed to allow longer sizes properly, but that won't happen before 1.8
20090824 23:16:08< Aethaeryn> on my 23'' monitor, Wesnoth looks plain *ugly* and that's because it doesn't scale right
20090824 23:16:29< Soliton> corn: now you should be able to.
20090824 23:16:36< corn> Soliton: ok
20090824 23:16:39< Aethaeryn> always taking small screens into consideration, but what about large ones?
20090824 23:17:10< mordante> Aethaeryn, I'm very aware of that problem, that is one of the main reasons I started to work on the new gui
20090824 23:17:31< Aethaeryn> I mean, the terrain looks good, the actual game itself looks good
20090824 23:17:37< Aethaeryn> but everything surrounding it looks ugly on a large screen
20090824 23:17:56< corn> corn@wesnoth:/srv/www/html$ mv wesstats /usr/src/svn-checkouts/
20090824 23:17:57< corn> mv: cannot move `wesstats' to `/usr/src/svn-checkouts/wesstats': Permission denied
20090824 23:18:15< Aethaeryn> It looks amateurish when there's so much empty space on a larger monitor
20090824 23:18:17< corn> Soliton: sorry, i forgot to logout and log bac in
20090824 23:18:19< mordante> I know, but with the current gui it's possible to change as well but nobody understands the theme code well enough, nor wants to look at it
20090824 23:18:32< Aethaeryn> It is hard though, now that there's both large monitors (desktop screens getting nicer) and small monitors (netbooks and iPhones)
20090824 23:18:41< Aethaeryn> much wider spread than previous years
20090824 23:18:49< mordante> yup
20090824 23:19:05< Aethaeryn> 23'' widescreen = not so rare anymore
20090824 23:19:14< Aethaeryn> I'm sure some people even use their TVs
20090824 23:19:30< Aethaeryn> If one's laptop is nice enough and has an HDMI port, why not?
20090824 23:19:35< corn> it wouldn't be so hard to create a quick hack that rescales a 'minimum supported resolution' to something smaller ex. 640x480
20090824 23:19:39< mordante> I hope that in about a year things have improved considerably, but it takes a lot of time to rewrite the code
20090824 23:19:40< Aethaeryn> next laptop I get, HDMI port is something I'm taking into consideration
20090824 23:20:01< loonycyborg> mordante: btw my monitor has highly non 4:3 aspect ratio resolution and consequently wesnoth map on main menu gets rescaled non-uniformly
20090824 23:20:07< corn> using a simple linear rescaling
20090824 23:20:35< Aethaeryn> mordante: is the game going to have support for SVG?
20090824 23:20:38< mordante> loonycyborg, yeah that's also a problem and 4:3 screens seem to be a dying race
20090824 23:20:41< Aethaeryn> I think the title screen should be an SVG
20090824 23:20:42< loonycyborg> Maybe it should be rescaled some way that its aspect ratio is kept??
20090824 23:20:46< Aethaeryn> the map looks ugly on my screen
20090824 23:20:55< Aethaeryn> and I'm sure it looks similarly scaled on tiny screens
20090824 23:20:57< loonycyborg> s/??/?
20090824 23:20:59< corn> Soliton: still not working. I am a part of www-data and src groups but svn-checkouts is wesnoth group
20090824 23:21:32< mordante> Aethaeryn, depends on what SDL_Image supports, but that also means the map should be drawn as vectors
20090824 23:21:52< mordante> and I'm not sure whether we have a vector based map
20090824 23:22:56< Aethaeryn> mordante: how hard is it to do in an extremely high resolution and convert?
20090824 23:23:22< Soliton> corn: sorry, fixed.
20090824 23:23:25< mordante> no idea I'm no artist
20090824 23:23:53< corn> Soliton: no problem, sorry to be such a nag :)
20090824 23:24:07< Aethaeryn> I know it's easy to convert SVG to PNG, but I'm not sure about the other direction
20090824 23:24:23< Blarumyrran> well obviously not
20090824 23:24:28< corn> Aethaeryn: PNG is not vector based
20090824 23:24:29< CIA-62> fendrin * r38067 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/characters.cfg: LoW : Made Kalenz quick and resilent.
20090824 23:24:32< mordante> from vector to bitmap is always easy
20090824 23:24:43< loonycyborg> It's an AI complete problem :P
20090824 23:24:50< Soliton> corn: no worries. it's good to test if our permissions are setup nicely. :-)
20090824 23:24:57< loonycyborg> (converting from bitmap to SVG)
20090824 23:24:59< mordante> the other way around is harder, might be some tools to do it
20090824 23:25:09< corn> loonycyborg: you mean NP complete?
20090824 23:25:29< Blarumyrran> Huh, tools? What exactly would those tools do?
20090824 23:25:33< mordante> no idea how well they do the job
20090824 23:25:38< Aethaeryn> hmmm
20090824 23:25:40< Aethaeryn> Idk.
20090824 23:25:42< loonycyborg> No. I mean jokular distrortion of that term.
20090824 23:25:48< corn> well, it is actually *impossible* to recover an SVG from a PNG because the SVG is basically infinite resolution
20090824 23:25:49< Blarumyrran> They see an array of pixels... and pretty much all they can do is make an svg of little squares
20090824 23:26:01< Aethaeryn> hmm
20090824 23:26:04-!- cib0 [n=cib@p5DC4318B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090824 23:26:13< corn> so you can recreate a vector representation but it may or may not be the same as the original vector representation
20090824 23:26:16< mordante> Blarumyrran, recognize patterns eg see a line and describe it as a vector
20090824 23:26:43< Blarumyrran> There are way too many lines on even the mainscreenmap
20090824 23:26:46< corn> as a simple example, think back to a high school/college calculus class where you spent time discussing creating various functions using only polynomials
20090824 23:26:47< Aethaeryn> Then maybe someone should do a painting, like story image, that looks really fancy
20090824 23:26:51< Aethaeryn> In Inkscape
20090824 23:26:52< mordante> Blarumyrran, some patterns are easy so there might be tools to do a rudimentary conversion
20090824 23:27:01< Aethaeryn> That way, we have a menu that looks okay on large screens
20090824 23:27:12< Aethaeryn> honestly, I can only forsee myself going up in screen size, not down
20090824 23:27:13< mordante> Blarumyrran, but as I said, I've no idea how good those tools are
20090824 23:27:15< Aethaeryn> besides laptops
20090824 23:27:47< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: do you have an SVG editor?
20090824 23:28:00< Aethaeryn> like Inkscape
20090824 23:28:00< Blarumyrran> I have a text editor :>
20090824 23:28:07< Aethaeryn> lol
20090824 23:28:09< corn> that is a good answer :)
20090824 23:28:15< mordante> Aethaeryn, we're aware of the problem, but fixing it costs time
20090824 23:28:18< loonycyborg> corn: http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/AI-complete.html
20090824 23:28:54< corn> loonycyborg: ah, I haven't seen the term before
20090824 23:29:11 * esr bows in Aethaeryn's direction
20090824 23:29:27< Aethaeryn> When I learn C++, I will specialize in GUI.
20090824 23:29:31< esr> OOps.  I meant loonycyborg's direction.
20090824 23:29:40< Aethaeryn> It's a damn shame how many promising FOSS projects are just plain ugly.
20090824 23:30:02< corn> Aethaeryn: OSS projects are ugly because everyone hates doing GUI work
20090824 23:30:03 * esr thinks C++ contributes to that problem...
20090824 23:30:11< Blarumyrran> I like doing GUI work
20090824 23:30:14< esr> Oh, you meant the GUIS :-)
20090824 23:30:23< mordante> Aethaeryn, of course you could start to look at gui2 and start to design some dialogs that look good on larger screens ;-)
20090824 23:30:33< Sapient> Aethaeryn: but then once you get started, you will find all this fun other stuff you want to do instead of GUI ;)
20090824 23:30:37< esr> I don't mind doing GUI work either.
20090824 23:30:43< Aethaeryn> Sapient: I don't care.
20090824 23:30:48< corn> Blarumyrran, esr: I salute you
20090824 23:30:51< Aethaeryn> Other people will be better than me in C++ if I just start.
20090824 23:31:01< Aethaeryn> If all my favorite apps just look ugly, I need to touch them up.
20090824 23:31:02< mordante> and to be honest 1024x768 was a standard for a long time, only the last few years the resolutions went up fast
20090824 23:31:08< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20090824 23:31:10< corn> Aethaeryn: do you have programming experience in other languages?
20090824 23:31:28< Aethaeryn> corn: Not a programming language, just scripting languages.
20090824 23:31:36< Aethaeryn> I played a game that used LUA once, but I forgot most of it.
20090824 23:31:49< Aethaeryn> I know some CSS (Wikipedia uses this), HTML, and (of course) WML
20090824 23:32:03-!- Sirp [i=97c1dc1b@wesnoth/developer/dave] has quit []
20090824 23:32:08< corn> Aethaeryn: if it had control flow (if,while,for), then it's enough. you can pick up enough C++ within a month or two to become an accepted wesnoth developer
20090824 23:32:27< Aethaeryn> I am a quick learner when I drink enough coffee
20090824 23:33:09< Aethaeryn> Of course, I never formally learned any of those languages.
20090824 23:33:17< Aethaeryn> Just like I never formally learned Linux/UNIX.
20090824 23:33:20< corn> maybe that is a slight exaggeration... but becoming proficient enough to code things in wesnoth is more about learning how to use GDB properly than learning the details of C++
20090824 23:33:24< Aethaeryn> I just kinda jumped in and learned what I needed when I needed.
20090824 23:33:42< loonycyborg> You can't 'formally learn' anything. You either learn or you don't learn :P
20090824 23:34:22< Aethaeryn> I wouldn't consider myself fluent. I can't just jump in with no examples/documentation/help/etc. and write a good webpage, for instance.
20090824 23:34:42< Aethaeryn> My comp. sci. major friend though once made a .html file just to show what he learned in high school, and I did manage to tweak it :P
20090824 23:34:46< mordante> I'm off night
20090824 23:34:53< Aethaeryn> Imo, school doesn't teach very much.
20090824 23:34:59-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090824 23:35:02< Aethaeryn> You learn what you need for the grade.
20090824 23:35:32< Aethaeryn> Besides, if I ever took a computer class, I'd probably be forced to use Windows, especially if it were an intro class. Yuck.
20090824 23:36:01< Sapient> Aethaeryn: speaking of which, I think you asked who came up with the [set_menu_item] feature; that was me :)
20090824 23:36:17 * Blarumyrran remembers an embarrassing "intro" class in 9. grade, where we were thought about different methods of how to turn the computer in and out
20090824 23:36:36< Sapient> I was inspired by some of the stuff Bob was doing and the limitations of using moveto for everything
20090824 23:37:04< Aethaeryn> cool.
20090824 23:37:21< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: I tested out of the one required programming class in high school.
20090824 23:37:31< Aethaeryn> I think I was the only one to do so in my grade (was a small school, though)
20090824 23:37:36< Sapient> so I gave him a mandate to "give power back to the people" and he followed through on it
20090824 23:37:40< Aethaeryn> I guess the only other technically literate people wanted the easy A
20090824 23:37:42< Blarumyrran> "Tested out" means?
20090824 23:37:52< Aethaeryn> Means I took a test that proved I knew more than what they'd teach in that class
20090824 23:38:00< Blarumyrran> For money?
20090824 23:38:03< Aethaeryn> The hard parts were Excell and Access
20090824 23:38:18< Aethaeryn> didn't study though, just made educated guesses
20090824 23:38:22< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: Nope, no money.
20090824 23:38:26< Aethaeryn> Just didn't want to take that class.
20090824 23:38:46< Blarumyrran> We had a course in cisco networking - and in the end you could have an exam FOR MONEY. Nobody took it
20090824 23:39:03< Aethaeryn> Besides typing classes in elementry and middle school, basically, my knowledge in computers is informal. I'd rather keep it a hobby.
20090824 23:39:09< Aethaeryn> The second I do it for a grade, I'll probably hate it.
20090824 23:39:24< Aethaeryn> I might buy books though.
20090824 23:46:47< ilor> Aethaeryn: please try avoiding the A-word while I'm around :P
20090824 23:47:21< fabi> ilor: Access?
20090824 23:47:28-!- Zarel [i=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090824 23:47:31< ilor> ow not again ;_;
20090824 23:48:57< Crab_> fabi: is there an existing macro to fire a different-name event based on difficulty level ?
20090824 23:49:30-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090824 23:50:14< fabi> Crab_: Not that I would know of. shadowmaster?
20090824 23:55:40< Sapient> I kinda doubt it... then again, I don't use macros very often other than FOREACH and VARIABLE
20090824 23:57:02< fabi> esr: Did you assign #14165 to me?
20090824 23:58:05< Sapient> the reason I doubt it is because [fire_event] is relatively new and most of our macros are very old
20090824 23:58:44< Soliton> fabi: at the bottom of the page there is a history section that tells you.
20090824 23:59:03< fabi> Soliton: Found it. Thank you.
--- Log closed Tue Aug 25 00:00:34 2009