--- Log opened Wed Aug 26 00:00:14 2009
--- Day changed Wed Aug 26 2009
20090826 00:00:14< AI0867> it does roughly the same thing (excluding source), but they're not compatible
20090826 00:00:15< Ivanovic> and yeah, in fact the gpl *does* work if you closely define what the source for artwork is
20090826 00:00:16< Zarel> Ivanovic: That just means GPL isn't CC-BY-SA-compatible. CC-BY-SA is still GPL-compatible.
20090826 00:00:40< Ivanovic> for us the sources for artwork are the .png files
20090826 00:00:43< AI0867> Zarel: ?
20090826 00:00:51< Ivanovic> if the creator has something else, too, great
20090826 00:00:57< Ivanovic> if not, then thats the way it is
20090826 00:02:31< Ivanovic> Zarel: and how should we formulate the stuff we post as message on the addon server?
20090826 00:02:46< Ivanovic> currently it is a plain "what you publish has to be gpl, everything of it!"
20090826 00:02:56< AI0867> Zarel: the GPL forbids additional restrictions. As CC-BY doesn't have any, it's compatible. CC-BY-SA does, and even though they're very similar to the GPL's, it's still incompatible
20090826 00:03:05< Ivanovic> this way we can easily add any content on the addon server to mainline, even if the author is gone
20090826 00:03:18< AI0867> You may not impose any further
20090826 00:03:20< AI0867> restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein.
20090826 00:03:21< Ivanovic> would not this easily possible with some strange mix of licenses is used
20090826 00:03:26< AI0867> part 6
20090826 00:03:42< Ivanovic> yes, gpl is clearly not perfect, but changing anything in those regards is basically impossible for us to do
20090826 00:03:48< Zarel> AI0867: What additional restrictions does CC-BY-SA have?
20090826 00:04:45< Zarel> Ivanovic: The problem with "if you closely define what the source for artwork is" is that if it isn't defined in the license itself (i.e. in the GPL itself), it means nothing, and it isn't.
20090826 00:05:00< AI0867> Zarel: the restriction that any derivative works must also be under CC-BY-SA
20090826 00:05:13< Zarel> Ivanovic: It can be rephrased as "What you publish becomes CC-BY-SA, everything of it!"
20090826 00:05:51< Zarel> AI0867: And if they are under a more restrictive license such as the GPL, they count as under CC-BY-SA, iirc.
20090826 00:05:55< Zarel> Or at least that's the common interpretation.
20090826 00:06:43< AI0867> that may be true, but it's not written in any law nor has it been tested in court (that I know of)
20090826 00:07:09< Zarel> Nor has a lot of far more important concepts.
20090826 00:07:14< Zarel> Such as that the GPL is irrevocable.
20090826 00:07:35< Zarel> And the entirety of open source, OSI, etc, rests on that the GPL is irrevocable.
20090826 00:09:11< AI0867> Zarel: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html <-- FSF says CC-BY 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 2.0 are incompatible
20090826 00:09:14< Ivanovic> Zarel: what i say are two things:
20090826 00:09:31< Zarel> AI0867: That's 2.0. 3.0 are compatible....
20090826 00:09:46< Ivanovic> 1) asking everybody involved to rerelease their artwork under a different license is *not* what i will be doing (though i am probably the ones that should do it if it is ever to happen)
20090826 00:10:09< Zarel> AI0867: Wikipedia has more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons#Debian
20090826 00:10:13< Ivanovic> 2) i *won't* rerelease the work i have done under gpl (WML work) under another license that does not enforce it to stay under gpl
20090826 00:10:51< Zarel> Basically, there were some issues with 2.0 because they require that attribution be removed if the original author requests it. That clause was removed for 3.0, and so the 3.0 CC licenses are perfectly compatible with DSFG/FSF guidelines.
20090826 00:10:56< Ivanovic> and yeah, CC-*whatever* is not the same as gpl
20090826 00:11:02< Ivanovic> or it would be called gpl
20090826 00:11:04< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:11:37< Sapient> even if you did change the license, anyone with a GPL release could continue to distribute it under GPL, right? so it would become, pick your license
20090826 00:11:39< Zarel> Ivanovic: But what is your reasoning for refusing to rerelease under CC-BY-SA?
20090826 00:12:04< Soliton> only CC-BY-SA 3.0 is dsfg free.
20090826 00:12:08< Ivanovic> Zarel: i see no reason to do so
20090826 00:12:16< Ivanovic> Zarel: for my wml work gpl is perfectly fine
20090826 00:12:27< Ivanovic> since it clearly is a form of source code and there gpl works perfectly
20090826 00:12:50< Zarel> Ivanovic: As mentioned, it is to resolve the unclearness about "source code" for artwork of the not-programming variety.
20090826 00:13:04< Zarel> I'm not referring to WML, but to artwork.
20090826 00:13:11< Ivanovic> source code for pixel art are the resulting files
20090826 00:13:23< Zarel> :[
20090826 00:13:25< Ivanovic> you can do anything with it that you can also do with any of the "project files"
20090826 00:13:35< Ivanovic> yes, for 3d models it is different
20090826 00:13:55< Ivanovic> but for pixel art, what wesnoth consists of, it *does* work to say that the png files are the sources
20090826 00:14:01< Sapient> wesnoth's artwork isn't a work in and of itself as much as a part (e.g. source) of the overall game
20090826 00:14:10< Zarel> What about portraits?
20090826 00:14:23< Zarel> And the other artwork?
20090826 00:14:29< Ivanovic> and as you can see from our artists that edit the others work all the time the png files do work as sources
20090826 00:14:36< Ivanovic> they also do so with portraits
20090826 00:14:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:14:54< Zarel> But they don't obviously count as "preferred form"
20090826 00:15:11< Ivanovic> uhm, since they are used to edit all the time, they *are* preferred form
20090826 00:15:13< Zarel> I can disassemble and edit executable binaries by hand, too, but I'd prefer source.
20090826 00:15:19< Ivanovic> it does work and it is *used* to work with the stuff
20090826 00:15:58< Sapient> I think you could make a better case with music there; it's difficult to modify that without the samples
20090826 00:16:03< Ivanovic> and the prefered form somehow also depends on preferences...
20090826 00:16:08< Zarel> I'm pretty sure if, say, Valkier wants to make an adjustment to his Revenant portrait, he would prefer not to use a PNG.
20090826 00:16:16< Ivanovic> yes, music is a whole different part in those regards
20090826 00:16:32< Ivanovic> though for music, what is *really* the source?
20090826 00:16:39< Ivanovic> the sheets the notes were written on?
20090826 00:16:46< Ivanovic> they were never digitally available anyway...
20090826 00:16:47< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:17:44< zookeeper> for music, the sources are the files and samples which the musicians couldn't legally distribute.
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20090826 00:18:01< zookeeper> so all our music is pretty much just one big GPL violation to begin with..
20090826 00:18:01< Zarel> You could say the same ("What's _really_ the source?") about artwork, and pretty much everything except programming source code.
20090826 00:18:11< Sapient> even if we did have artists releasing their preferred format with layers, vectors, etc, it may be a proprietary file format (which would be worse for open source purposes)
20090826 00:18:15< Zarel> Which is why the GPL should not be applied to anything except programming source code in the first place.
20090826 00:18:22< Zarel> Which is what this conversation is all about. :/
20090826 00:18:54< Ivanovic> which in fact does not work anymore, since changing anything (especially the addon server!) does not work nicely
20090826 00:19:10< Zarel> Sapient: Not so much "worse" as "neutral", since it can't be worse than releasing nothing.
20090826 00:19:33< Zarel> And that entire thing can be resolved by relicensing to CC-BY-SA 3.- as suggested.
20090826 00:19:54< Ivanovic> in fact the relicensing does introduce a *hell* of a mes
20090826 00:19:56< Ivanovic> s
20090826 00:20:24< Ivanovic> so in fact it is not a real solution anyway
20090826 00:20:33< Zarel> As stated: We somehow get by with a bunch of part-GPL, part-CC artwork in Warzone...
20090826 00:20:53< Sapient> if some hypothetical lawyer wanted to come after us or our packagers, it seems that they would already have grounds for their case based on all the versions we already distributed regardless of any changes made now
20090826 00:21:33< Ivanovic> Zarel: you get by and i feel that it would suck too much for me/us to reasonable see it as option to go this way
20090826 00:21:39< Sirp> grounds for what case is it that we're talking about?
20090826 00:22:06< Sapient> Sirp: music/art being incompatible with the terms of GPL
20090826 00:22:23< Ivanovic> s/incompatible/extremly problematic
20090826 00:22:26< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:22:48< Sirp> Sapient: I don't see how that would be grounds for a civil suit.
20090826 00:23:11< Sirp> "you released this art under a license and we think the license doesn't make sense so give us $1 million now!!"
20090826 00:23:18< Ivanovic> Sirp: the civil suit could be that the lawyer wants to force us provide the source code
20090826 00:23:33< zookeeper> ...or stop distributing the game
20090826 00:24:24< Sirp> all source code that is used to build Wesnoth is available.
20090826 00:24:26< Ivanovic> and source code for artwork (images, music, ...) is *problematic*
20090826 00:25:08< Sapient> then it would become Quietnoth
20090826 00:25:50< Sapient> ;-)
20090826 00:26:08< Sirp> if someone wants "source code" to anything, we are happy to provide it, however they define "source code".
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20090826 00:26:37< Ivanovic> ah, i think here it matters (for artwork) how *we* define the "prefered format for edits"
20090826 00:26:39< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:26:44< Zarel> What if they ask for the stuff for the music that the music contributors refuse to give out?
20090826 00:27:00< Sapient> (or aren't legally entitled to give out)
20090826 00:27:02< Zarel> Or the PSD/GIMP sources for the artwork that the art contributors refuse to give out?
20090826 00:27:06< Ivanovic> Zarel: what if that stuff does not even exist?
20090826 00:27:22< zookeeper> Ivanovic, moot point since it does exist
20090826 00:27:39< Ivanovic> zookeeper: are you sure that they are not deleted by now?
20090826 00:27:47< zookeeper> yes
20090826 00:27:48< Zarel> Yes. :P
20090826 00:27:57< Sirp> I think all of this is an entirely academic discussion.
20090826 00:28:05< Ivanovic> Sirp: of course it is
20090826 00:28:11< Zarel> I blame copyright law.
20090826 00:28:28< loonycyborg> Public domain FTW :P
20090826 00:28:30< Ivanovic> Zarel: the really funny part about copyright law is local law
20090826 00:28:37< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: uhm, does not work
20090826 00:28:37 * Zarel high-fives loonycyborg
20090826 00:28:45< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: in germany public domain is basically not allowed
20090826 00:28:52< Zarel> CC0 FTW :P
20090826 00:28:53< zookeeper> Sirp, well, isn't it true that if someone really wanted to cause problems for wesnoth, they could easily do so by requiring us to provide the sources for music or stop distributing the game?
20090826 00:28:57< Ivanovic> since it is not possible to "give away" copyright for a work you have done
20090826 00:28:59< Aethaeryn> I could provide the source code for my images if anyone requested.
20090826 00:29:05< Aethaeryn> if by source code they mean .xcf files.
20090826 00:29:07< Ivanovic> like i said, local law makes things a whole lot more funny
20090826 00:29:10< Zarel> Ivanovic: That's what CC-0 is for.
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20090826 00:29:20< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Can it at least expire?
20090826 00:29:41< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yes, some years after you die
20090826 00:29:47< Ivanovic> something like either 50 or 75 years, not sure
20090826 00:30:18< Zarel> Yeah, the Warzone webmaster is German. That's why he's so paranoid about copyrights.
20090826 00:30:27< Sirp> zookeeper: no, because we would tell them that we consider the music itself the source, or that the 'source' is for the engine itself, and we don't think the GPL implies every part of a work has 'source', or whatever seems reasonable to us.
20090826 00:30:29 * Aethaeryn can't wait until somewhere between 2080 and 2100, when MS DOS will finally become public domain!
20090826 00:30:33< Aethaeryn> Yay.
20090826 00:30:44< Zarel> Aethaeryn: It doesn't work that way.
20090826 00:30:58< Sapient> remember what happened to Mickey Mouse ;)
20090826 00:30:59< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: AFAIK there already are free implementations of MS DOS
20090826 00:31:06< Zarel> You see, the length of copyright is defined as "life of creator + number of years since Walt Disney died"
20090826 00:31:16< Aethaeryn> XD
20090826 00:31:17< Aethaeryn> True.
20090826 00:31:24< zookeeper> Sirp, err, and couldn't they then take that to court? or do you think such a position could actually win?
20090826 00:31:33< Zarel> Whereas by "defined" I mean "enforced by Disney lawyers"
20090826 00:31:39< Ivanovic> i think we all agree that copyright these days is a real mess that often really tends to *suck*
20090826 00:31:43< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:31:47 * Zarel agrees
20090826 00:31:51 * Aethaeryn agrees.
20090826 00:32:03< Zarel> Although the attitudes of many content creators really doesn't help the matter. :(
20090826 00:32:04< Ivanovic> in general for wesnoth all stuff is available and people are free to "play" around with things
20090826 00:32:14< Sirp> zookeeper: I think it's profoundly more likely that I will be run over by a bus tomorrow than that someone sufficiently litigious and with the resources to actually *sue* us over something so ridiculous will come along.
20090826 00:32:18< Aethaeryn> There's a whole ethical side to computer science that no one likes to talk about. :P
20090826 00:32:26< Ivanovic> so that they can create their own artwork based on the existing stuff, remix the music and all the likes
20090826 00:32:39< Zarel> Aethaeryn: No one likes to talk about? It's like a weekly discussion topic on half the boards I frequent! :P
20090826 00:33:04< Ivanovic> Zarel: you frequent the wrong boards!
20090826 00:33:05< Aethaeryn> Perhaps I should've done ;) or ;P
20090826 00:33:10< Zarel> Sirp: Well, as said, it's hypothetical.
20090826 00:33:17< Aethaeryn> or that backwards question mark thing (irony mark) that someone brought up in one of the forum discussions.
20090826 00:33:29< zookeeper> Sirp, well, i don't think it's very likely, but i don't think it's _that_ unlikely :p
20090826 00:33:35< Zarel> Perhaps, if I have a ton of money to throw at lawyers, and want to get copyright licensing to make more sense, I'll go sue Wesnoth. :P
20090826 00:33:40< Zarel> One day...
20090826 00:33:41< Sirp> zookeeper: I would say it's incredibly unlikely.
20090826 00:33:56< Ivanovic> Zarel: i hope in that time i got even more money so that i can counter sue
20090826 00:33:57< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:34:00< Sirp> zookeeper: to sue someone you generally have to prove damages. What damages are they going to to sue us for?
20090826 00:34:14< Ivanovic> Sirp: EA got bancrupt because of wesnoth!
20090826 00:34:25< Ivanovic> (the new news for april 1st, 2011)
20090826 00:34:25< Zarel> I don't think that'd be a licensing suit. ;)
20090826 00:34:26< Sirp> and yes, if they have resources to sue us then we are going to counter-sue them.
20090826 00:35:08< Ivanovic> now they want to build their new game on wesnoth and can't do so because the "real" sources are not available
20090826 00:35:17< Sapient> we'll have to remember this discussion next april fools
20090826 00:35:18< Ivanovic> this leads to their bancrupt and we have to pay the managers!
20090826 00:35:20< Ivanovic> ^^
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20090826 00:35:57< Sapient> "Wesnoth sued by area man"
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20090826 00:36:34< zookeeper> Sirp, no damages of course
20090826 00:36:48< Ivanovic> zookeeper: suing in the US is some strange stuff, too
20090826 00:37:06< Ivanovic> IIRC you are only allowed to sue if you (or the one you work for) has a damage
20090826 00:37:52< Zarel> "area man" makes me think of The Onion.
20090826 00:37:53< Aethaeryn> You need to be directly affected, yes.
20090826 00:38:03< zookeeper> if some company released this nice little big piece of GPL software without actually providing all the source, then would you really need to prove damages in order to legally force them to either stop distributing it or release the missing sources?
20090826 00:38:04< Aethaeryn> Unless it's the government.
20090826 00:38:06< Ivanovic> and this is *difficult* when it comes to wesnoth
20090826 00:38:14< Aethaeryn> You can't sue the government unless the government lets you sue them.
20090826 00:38:37< Ivanovic> zookeeper: then the competitors can sue
20090826 00:38:45< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: Perhaps you could seu if you *requested* the source code and did not get it all.
20090826 00:38:50< Ivanovic> because they are not following the licenses they "force upon their customers"
20090826 00:38:52< Aethaeryn> Not merely for violating the GPL.
20090826 00:39:07< Zarel> zookeeper: If they released someone else's little piece of GPL software, then sure, you could sue them.
20090826 00:39:24< zookeeper> i'm not talking of those GPL violations, but the ones we're talking about
20090826 00:39:28< Sirp> zookeeper: actually I think it's quite hard unless you can show you are damaged. You might be able to get an injunction to stop them distributing, maybe.
20090826 00:39:34< Zarel> If they released their own software as GPL, but didn't provide sources, they could just as easily take it back, say "Whoopsie", and still refuse to release sources, I presume.
20090826 00:39:47< Ivanovic> if eg EA created a game based on the wesnoth source code, everyone working on this source code can sue EA to release the source according to the gpl
20090826 00:40:01< Sirp> zookeeper: but even if they wanted us to stop distributing, we could at that stage just say "ohhh okay. We'll stop distributing under the GPL. But, the copyright holders are going to re-license under something else, now."
20090826 00:40:04< Zarel> I mean, it's a _license_. It can't be used to force the licensor to do anything; it does nothing but grant rights to the licensee.
20090826 00:40:19< Sirp> the only difficulty would be any work that we are unsure who made it originally.
20090826 00:40:23< Zarel> The best you could do was to get them to stop distributing under that license, since it's flawed.
20090826 00:40:27< zookeeper> Sirp, Zarel, exactly. i didn't say they could force us to pay damages or anything, just stop distributing.
20090826 00:40:48< Sirp> zookeeper: I think it's very unlikely they could stop us distributing.
20090826 00:40:49< Zarel> So, for instance, if I sued Wesnoth, I could _force_ you to relicense your art/music under CC-BY-SA. :D
20090826 00:40:56< zookeeper> Sirp, and yeah, probably changing the license at that point would be enough. although maybe we couldn't distribute the previous versions anymore.
20090826 00:41:08< Ivanovic> zookeeper: and stopping distribution is *damn difficult* regaring an open source project that is mirrored on *hundreds* of servers
20090826 00:41:08< Zarel> So by asking nicely, I'm totally doing you a favor. ;)
20090826 00:41:40< Ivanovic> Zarel: and we could just say "ah, screw you" and it would first get damn expensive for you
20090826 00:41:45< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:41:59< Zarel> That's why my plans are to get rich first. ;)
20090826 00:42:12< Ivanovic> Zarel: ahh, that is why all of our plans are to get rich
20090826 00:42:23< Zarel> 2. ??? 3. Profit! 4. Sue Wesnoth.
20090826 00:42:35< Zarel> Now all I have to do is figure out what #2 is.
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20090826 00:42:54< Ivanovic> hey, you are at the same stage of planning and working out the plan as i am
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20090826 00:43:01< Ivanovic> just that in my plans 4) is different
20090826 00:43:54< Ivanovic> (it is more the likes of "become dictator on some of those lovely caribbean islands")
20090826 00:43:56< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:44:25< Ivanovic> once that is successfully done we can just migrate wesnoth there and say "screw you!!!" to everyone who wants to sue us because of copyright
20090826 00:44:27< Ivanovic> ^^
20090826 00:45:10< zookeeper> good idea
20090826 00:45:34< AI0867> Ivanovic: it's too bad the old "terra nulla" principle ended
20090826 00:45:44< zookeeper> let's move wesnoth to sealand
20090826 00:45:45< Zarel> "That man, of course, was German philosopher Hans Capitalism." <- Oh, man, this has to be the funniest part of the Cracked Monkeysphere article
20090826 00:46:05< AI0867> or you could just create an island and claim it as your nation
20090826 00:46:20< Zarel> AI0867: You can't? D:
20090826 00:46:27< AI0867> s/nulla/nullius/
20090826 00:46:37< Ivanovic> Zarel: he is not as well suited to act as dictator as i am
20090826 00:46:51< Zarel> So what if you just move a bunch of rocks into international waters and make your own island?
20090826 00:46:54< Zarel> What happens to it?
20090826 00:46:54< Ivanovic> (that is the benefit from my experience as release manager)
20090826 00:47:59< zookeeper> Zarel, nothing?
20090826 00:48:02< AI0867> Zarel: can't find it right now, but I read that that no longer works
20090826 00:48:05< Soliton> Zarel: btw, seeing as the warzone version in debian is 2.2.1+dfsg1-1 doesn't make it sound likely that you're doing things right in the licenses department. ;-)
20090826 00:48:05< Zarel> Ivanovic: Ha! At Warzone, we are all equal, we are all "Developer"! You silly capitalist pig-dog who will be overthrown by your proletariat!
20090826 00:48:42< Ivanovic> Zarel: ah, we are all equal, too
20090826 00:48:44< Zarel> Soliton: No, that's just because we have some CC-BY-SA-2.0 content that we're trying to get around. It'll be gone by 2.2.3, promise. ;)
20090826 00:48:49< Ivanovic> just some are more equal than others
20090826 00:48:51< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 00:49:17< Zarel> zookeeper: I mean, whose jurisdiction is it under?
20090826 00:49:32< Zarel> No one's? If so, you could establish a government (i.e. yourself)
20090826 00:49:40< Zarel> And it would at least de facto be the same as terra nulla.
20090826 00:50:14< zookeeper> sure, you can establish a government by yourself but that's meaningless if no one else recognizes that.
20090826 00:50:48< Zarel> That's why step 3 is "Profit!"
20090826 00:50:56< Zarel> So you can buy your own army so people will recognize it.
20090826 00:51:23< zookeeper> where are you gonna buy that army from when you're sitting on a rock in the middle of an ocean?
20090826 00:51:29< zookeeper> or with what
20090826 00:51:51< Zarel> I dunno.
20090826 00:52:09< Zarel> I'm sure there's someone unscrupulous enough to sell me an army.
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20090826 00:52:37< Zarel> I mean, I _am_ a citizen of the only country Kim Jong-Il lets his citizens talk to.
20090826 00:52:48< zookeeper> i think you should rather get a navy in that situation ;)
20090826 00:52:51< Zarel> (FOR TEN GOLD, NAME THAT COUNTRY)
20090826 00:53:13< zookeeper> canada?
20090826 00:53:17< Zarel> Nope.
20090826 00:53:20< zookeeper> ohh.
20090826 00:53:56< Zarel> Why would the Glorious Leader of North Korea let his citizens contact anyone brainwashed by Western Democracy? o_O
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20090826 00:54:49< Ivanovic> zookeeper: that is why "profit" has to be enough to buy a complete carribbean state
20090826 00:57:57< Ivanovic> okay, 1am over here, time for my bed
20090826 00:58:37< Zarel> Have fun in... hmm, lemme guess... Central or Eastern Europe?
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20090826 01:03:21< Aethaeryn> Is there a defined set of goals to reach before 2.0?
20090826 01:03:34< Aethaeryn> One not written way back in the lead up to 1.0 :P
20090826 01:04:19< Zarel> Version numbers are just marketing, anyway.
20090826 01:04:23< Zarel> I vote we skip straight to 11.
20090826 01:04:24< Aethaeryn> I disagree.
20090826 01:04:36< Aethaeryn> I hate when people skip numbers :P
20090826 01:04:55< Zarel> Let's skip ahead to 3000, then.
20090826 01:04:55< Aethaeryn> But even if you go to Wesnoth 1.10 instead of 2.0, there *is* going to be a 2.0 eventually. Even GNOME hit 2.0 eventually.
20090826 01:04:58< Zarel> Wesnoth 3000!
20090826 01:05:03< Zarel> Has a pretty nice ring to it.
20090826 01:05:04< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth 3000 is Thunderstone ;)
20090826 01:05:33< Zarel> Yeah, well, ffmpeg is still on 0.5
20090826 01:05:43< Aethaeryn> irssi is still on the 0.8 line
20090826 01:05:51< Aethaeryn> And it's been stable, didn't have a release for 2 years.
20090826 01:05:55< Aethaeryn> (Just recently had two though)
20090826 01:06:09< Zarel> ffmpeg has done pretty much the same thing.
20090826 01:06:23< Aethaeryn> Still, I find using numbers just for marketing as wasted potential.
20090826 01:06:29< Zarel> i.e. no release for a really long time "Just use the trunk, it's plenty stable", but then they released a stable 0.5
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20090826 01:06:49< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Agreed; I was being silly.
20090826 01:06:51< Crab_> fendrin: I've got a feeling that the NOT_OLURFS_LAND 'avoid' x= y= in LoW 2 is bugged. is there an easy way to check it?
20090826 01:07:02< Elvenisko> hello boys and girls... and crabs :)
20090826 01:07:09< Aethaeryn> For Thunderstone, the add-on I'm working on, I have clearly defined sets of requirements to qualify for each number.
20090826 01:07:26< Aethaeryn> I can even calculate a rough percentage of progress to 1.0
20090826 01:07:41< Zarel> Well, you have 2099 major versions to go before you can beat Warzone 2100. ;)
20090826 01:08:02< shadowmaster> is this #wesnoth-dev, or is my client confused?
20090826 01:08:03< Aethaeryn> Oh, we could pull a SuSE and skip a "few" to appear on par with competition.
20090826 01:08:08< Elvenisko> can someone help? i like to win a scenario, when player advances elvish fighter to elvish hero. How can i do it?
20090826 01:08:21< Zarel> shadowmaster: Release management counts as development.
20090826 01:08:30< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: This started when I asked if there's any goals/plans/whatever for 2.0
20090826 01:08:37 * shadowmaster hails the new release manager
20090826 01:08:45< Aethaeryn> Roadmap, so to speak.
20090826 01:09:03< Zarel> shadowmaster: We don't have to be a release manager to talk about release management... :/
20090826 01:09:10< Aethaeryn> I think it'd be beneficial to start thinking of it now, so when we reach the 1.9 branch we don't have too many "2.0 or 1.10" branding discussions.
20090826 01:09:13< Zarel> Or were you trying to imply something else?
20090826 01:09:16< Sapient> Elvenisko: [event] name="post advance" [filter] type="Elvish Hero"
20090826 01:09:28< shadowmaster> or id="your hero's id"
20090826 01:09:44< ilor> Aethaeryn: I think we should go straight to eleven (1.11) :P
20090826 01:09:50< Aethaeryn> If we have clearly stated goals for 2.0, we just point to that *instead* of wasting time on a "2.0 or 1.10" discussion when we do the 1.9 branch.
20090826 01:10:06< Aethaeryn> Eh, I disagree.
20090826 01:10:08< Zarel> Elvenisko: But what if all enemies are defeated and it hasn't advanced yet? You should probably be careful about making sure that doesn't happen.
20090826 01:10:26< Aethaeryn> I think we should go straight to 53.1.0
20090826 01:10:27< Zarel> ilor: I already made that joke. ;)
20090826 01:10:28< Elvenisko> great, many thanks. and if i will give side=1 into the filter, it will run an event if any unit will improve to any unit?
20090826 01:10:35< Aethaeryn> People will think we have a very advanced and stable program that way
20090826 01:10:50< Elvenisko> Zarel: sure. player cannot kill enemy leader
20090826 01:10:57< Zarel> [18:03] <Zarel> I vote we skip straight to 11.
20090826 01:11:07< Sapient> Elvenisko: then inside the event, put [endlevel] result=victory
20090826 01:11:19< ilor> Zarel: that's, like, yesterday. Doesn't count :P
20090826 01:11:20< Sapient> you should be asking this in the WML Workshop though
20090826 01:11:22< Zarel> Elvenisko: Very good. I was just making sure you didn't forget that part. I dislike unwinnable scenarios.
20090826 01:11:35-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090826 01:11:45< Zarel> Like the last scenario of TSG, I think was one of the most annoying ones ever. :[
20090826 01:11:54< Zarel> That's the one with unlimited elves, right?
20090826 01:12:07< Elvenisko> Sapient: yeah, i know. i just wishes to ask, if it can by without type="something" :)
20090826 01:12:42< Sapient> type= in a Standard Unit Filter refers to the id= of a unit_type
20090826 01:12:57< Sapient> so the filter passes if you advance into that unit type
20090826 01:13:04< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Large numbers do not necessarily imply stability.
20090826 01:13:05< Sapient> which was your original question, as stated
20090826 01:13:14< Zarel> The next version of MS Office will be Office 14.
20090826 01:13:28< Aethaeryn> No.
20090826 01:13:42< Aethaeryn> It'll probably be Office 2010 or whatever year they release it :P
20090826 01:13:49< Aethaeryn> That's a lot more stable than Office 95
20090826 01:13:55< Zarel> It's Office 2010, but it's version 14 of Office.
20090826 01:13:57< Aethaeryn> 21x more stable.
20090826 01:13:58< Sapient> (7:08:07 PM) Elvenisko: can someone help? i like to win a scenario, when player advances elvish fighter to elvish hero. How can i do it?
20090826 01:14:27< Zarel> Take a look, Office 2007 installs itself in a directory called OFFICE12.
20090826 01:14:35< Zarel> Office 2003 -> OFFICE11, etc
20090826 01:14:51< Elvenisko> Sapient: yeah, thanks. then i was asking something a little bit different. Time to try it :)
20090826 01:15:05< Elvenisko> btw guys, i HATE MS office :)
20090826 01:15:09< CIA-62> crab * r38101 /trunk/src/ai/default/ (ai.cpp contexts.cpp move.cpp): changes to targeting phase to discard avoided locations earlier
20090826 01:15:37< Crab_> AI0867: ^ should fix that segfault
20090826 01:15:57< CIA-62> crab * r38102 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/16_The_Chief_must_die.cfg: LoW 16: switch side 7 to new ai syntax, restore fai patrols
20090826 01:15:59< Crab_> fendrin: ^ the patrols are back online
20090826 01:18:41< Zarel> I actually rather like what they did with Office 2007, but that's just me
20090826 01:18:45 * Zarel dodges tomatoes
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20090826 01:28:22 * Blarumyrran throws anyway. what they did was awful.
20090826 01:33:03< Sapient> Vista Office is horrible
20090826 01:33:21< Sapient> I had the unpleasant experience of being forced to use it a few times now
20090826 01:33:57< Sapient> It made me mad enough when they started auto-hiding menu items instead of organizing them properly
20090826 01:34:16< Sapient> but in Vista it goes a step further at the hiding stuff madness
20090826 01:34:45< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20090826 01:35:02< Sapient> like, I just want to change the line spacing, not go on a scavenger hunt
20090826 01:35:02< Aethaeryn> They said screw you to all sorts of traditional interfaces
20090826 01:35:08< Aethaeryn> Got rid of the menus, and JUST had toolbars.
20090826 01:35:18< Aethaeryn> Toolbars are only good for things like save, and ctrl+s is even better for saving.
20090826 01:36:05< Blarumyrran> Know what would be awesome?
20090826 01:36:40< Blarumyrran> If keys on a keyboard were transparent, and each program would display the shortcuts in the ctrl & alt & shift keys
20090826 01:37:12< Aethaeryn> so, if you held ctrl, it'd light up the shortcuts?
20090826 01:37:35< Blarumyrran> sure
20090826 01:37:48< Blarumyrran> i mean, displaying them on screen is waste of space there
20090826 01:37:51< Sapient> and what would it do when you press Escape in vim?
20090826 01:38:11< Blarumyrran> I have never used vim
20090826 01:39:25< Aethaeryn> vim is a little non-standard.
20090826 01:39:32< Aethaeryn> "little"
20090826 01:39:59< Blarumyrran> programs could standardize shortcuts more
20090826 01:40:12< Blarumyrran> i mean, having a million different ones for redo is just weird
20090826 01:40:18< Aethaeryn> yes
20090826 01:40:27< Sapient> ah, well it's about as confusing as vista office but it uses a few obscure keystrokes instead of graphical mind games
20090826 01:40:30< Aethaeryn> ctrl+y always made the most sense to me
20090826 01:40:32< Aethaeryn> but no one does it :(
20090826 01:41:07< Crab_> Blarumyrran: only 'standardizing shortcuts' won't help much, since the 'way of thinking' is different in each program... 
20090826 01:41:53< Aethaeryn> Sapient: I thought it was emacs that did keystrokes?
20090826 01:42:01< Aethaeryn> vim does it through commands like ":cw"
20090826 01:42:40< Sapient> right, that's a series of single keystrokes... unlike emacs where youhold down Ctrl, Shift junk
20090826 01:43:09< Aethaeryn> unfortunately, emacs has a better interface.
20090826 01:43:40< Sapient> if you want intuitive interface you definitely don't pick vim
20090826 01:44:04< Sapient> but at least it can handle tabs properly
20090826 01:44:07< Crab_> Sapient: I'd say its pretty intuitive once your fingers get used to it... :)
20090826 01:44:42< Blarumyrran> Crab_, describe me the way of thinking which gives ctrl+y in one program, ctrl+shift+z in another, ctrl+r in another
20090826 01:45:17< Aethaeryn> now, a program that does text-only properly is irssi
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20090826 01:45:43< Aethaeryn> Nothing really confusing at all about it, if you are used to using commands like /join instead of menus in IRC.
20090826 01:45:59< Aethaeryn> Imo, it's the IRC clients that try to make you do everything through menus that are confusing.
20090826 01:46:22< Blarumyrran> actually, having undo & redo keys on the keyboard wouldnt hurt imo. Its not like id use Insert & Scroll Lock & SysRq more often
20090826 01:47:10< Crab_> Blarumyrran: editors which need to run through all kind of weird/high-latency terminals, would have different preferred ways for cursor movement. So, the hands of the editor would stay in slightly different 'working positions', so, the optimal positions for other actions would be different, too.
20090826 01:48:36< Aethaeryn> the only side keys that are really uesd a lot on a keyboard are printscreen and delete
20090826 01:48:39< Aethaeryn> imo
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20090826 01:49:18< Blarumyrran> dno, i use home & end constantly
20090826 01:49:45< Aethaeryn> true
20090826 01:50:03< Aethaeryn> the way my keyboard lays it out is "home" "pg up" "pg dn" "end" all on the right next to enter
20090826 01:50:14< Aethaeryn> (it's a laptop, so tighter space)
20090826 01:54:56< Zarel> Blarumyrran: Redo is pretty consistently Ctrl+Y across Windows.
20090826 01:55:05< Zarel> And Ctrl+Shift+Z across Linux.
20090826 01:55:10< Zarel> Or at least that's what I hear.
20090826 01:55:44< Zarel> Sapient: Erm, Office 2007 fixes the whole hiding stuff. If you want to change the line spacing, home tab, paragraph properties, line spacing.
20090826 01:56:03< Zarel> The whole point is that everything is where you'd expect it to be...
20090826 01:56:57< shadowmaster> Microsoft Office is a clear case of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks
20090826 01:57:02< shadowmaster> I didn't add it there.
20090826 01:57:13< Sapient> ah so that got rid of the annoying auto-hide menu items (mal)feature?
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20090826 01:57:38 * Aethaeryn doesn't click.
20090826 01:58:02< Sapient> I'm still stuck on Office 2003 here
20090826 01:58:20< Aethaeryn> There's juts some sites that waste too much time.
20090826 01:58:28< shadowmaster> I tend to dislike any Office suite.
20090826 01:58:41< shadowmaster> But I prefer MS Office 2003 to, e.g. OpenOffice.
20090826 01:58:49< Aethaeryn> Zarel: it's not consistant.
20090826 01:58:50< Zarel> Sapient: Erm, you're criticizing Office 2007 without ever having used it?
20090826 01:58:58< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Explain.
20090826 01:59:00< Aethaeryn> Zarel: OpenOffice is ctrl+y.
20090826 01:59:17< shadowmaster> GIMP too
20090826 01:59:48< Sapient> BTW, as long as we're on a MS rant, the thing that annoyed me most about Internet Explorer was how it would change the selection for you automatically (like whoops, I bet you *really* intended to highlight the rest of that word)
20090826 01:59:50< Aethaeryn> I don't know what it is in Emacs, but if ctrl+z minimizes emacs instead of undoing something, I doubt ctrl+shift+z is undo in emacs
20090826 02:00:01< Aethaeryn> gedit though is ctrl+shift+z
20090826 02:00:08< Aethaeryn> Linux has no standards, though. :P
20090826 02:00:10< Crab_> Aethaeryn: Ctrl+/
20090826 02:00:12< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: in Emacs it'd probably be CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+F12
20090826 02:00:37< shadowmaster> also, I'll hit you with a mallet for the "Linux has no standards" statement.
20090826 02:00:39< Zarel> What really annoyed _me_ about Internet Explorer is its LACK OF STANDARDS COMPLIANCE
20090826 02:00:41< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: no... ctrl+alt+shift+u+n+d+o
20090826 02:00:52< Aethaeryn> much more intuitive than ctrl+z
20090826 02:01:26< shadowmaster> I now remembert that the last time I showed a standard to you, you gleefully ignored it 
20090826 02:01:26< Aethaeryn> Zarel: IE conforms to the same standard the majority of web browsers on the internet use...
20090826 02:01:32< Aethaeryn> Oh wait, its own standard.
20090826 02:01:36< shadowmaster> as pretty much anything I say.
20090826 02:01:39< Sapient> and the funky-select feature was built in so tightly there wasn't even a registry hack to disable it
20090826 02:02:03< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Okay. Let me rephrase. Linux standards are like English grammatical rules. There's always a popular exception.
20090826 02:02:06< Zarel> Aethaeryn: That's only been the case for the period 2002-2006 or so.
20090826 02:02:47< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: that's better. tyvm
20090826 02:02:54< Crab_> fendrin: confirmed. NOT_OLURFS_LAND macro is indeed bugged.
20090826 02:03:38< Crab_> fendrin: OLURFS_LAND is *almost* correct (it differs by 1 hex, in non-relevant position)
20090826 02:08:59< Sapient> have fun, cya later
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20090826 02:09:31< CIA-62> crab * r38103 /trunk/src/ai/formula/function_table.cpp: new formula_ai function is_avoided_location - used to check the hex for being avoided
20090826 02:09:37< CIA-62> crab * r38104 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg: 
20090826 02:09:37< CIA-62> LoW 2 : removed bugged NOT_OLURFS_LAND macro. [not] {OLURFS_LAND} [/not] is
20090826 02:09:37< CIA-62> enough, and OLURFS_LAND is (almost) not buggy. To verify, droid side 2, and,
20090826 02:09:37< CIA-62> then, from side 2, from formula ai console, invoke something like
20090826 02:09:38< CIA-62> map(filter(map.terrain,is_avoided_location(loc(x,y))=1),debug_label(loc(x,y),'avoid'))
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20090826 03:29:39< CIA-62> jetryl * r38105 /trunk/data/core/images/units/merfolk/ (9 files): Updated base frames for the merfolk.
20090826 03:32:03< CIA-62> soliton * r38106 /branches/1.6/src/server/server.cpp: remember the era of the previous scenario when advancing since it is not sent again by the client
20090826 03:39:08< CIA-62> soliton * r38107 /trunk/src/server/ (game.cpp server.cpp simple_wml.cpp): improved simple_wml error exception handling and error logging
20090826 03:39:37< CIA-62> soliton * r38108 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: remember the era of the previous scenario when advancing since it is not sent again by the client
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20090826 04:11:48< CIA-62> jetryl * r38109 /trunk/data/core/units/merfolk/ (Entangler.cfg Netcaster.cfg): Changed text references on netcaster line to reflect new usage of clubs, changed descriptions to account for this.
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20090826 04:56:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.4 planned for Sunday | 82 bugs, 242 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090826 05:28:37< CIA-62> soliton * r38110 /branches/1.6/src/server/server.cpp: added support for banning IPs from a file to un/block TOR easily
20090826 05:29:16< CIA-62> soliton * r38111 /trunk/src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): added support for banning IPs from a file to un/block TOR easily
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20090826 09:30:42< YogiHH> hello
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20090826 09:33:09< YogiHH> mordante: I found some problem with the listbox layout, it seems. If i don't specify a bottom border in the lisbox definition, the code crashes within SDL_utils, called by timage::draw due to some invalid surface.
20090826 09:34:16< YogiHH> mordante: If you want to reproduce, take the load-game dialog and remove the border settings for the listbox definition. The header does not seem to be an issue, though.
20090826 09:35:14< YogiHH> mordante: I also tried border_size = 1, which crashes as well as only setting a left border
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20090826 10:40:39< Ivanovic> moin
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20090826 10:52:51< Ivanovic> YogiHH: since you were gone by then, a line from boucman yesterday evening in the mentor chan
20090826 10:52:54< Ivanovic> [23:12:12] <boucman> so, I reread the log... I'd be glad to go, but not sure I can make it yet...
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20090826 10:54:50< YogiHH> Ivanovic: I see. I'd say we give boucman priority, then. I also talked to my family and if boucman can't find some time, i'd be happy to go as well.
20090826 10:55:15< Ivanovic> okay
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20090826 11:06:50< YogiHH> euschn, you there?
20090826 11:08:31< YogiHH> euschn: I had an interesting discussion with mordante, yesterday. You might want to check the log starting at about 20:40
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20090826 11:43:35< euschn> YogiHH: i read the logs now - i dont fully understand what is meant by "freestanding function", could you explain it?
20090826 11:45:24< YogiHH> euschn: a function that is not bound to a struct or class
20090826 11:47:13< euschn> YogiHH: how can one use this to unify the savegame config creation? wouldnt you just have to add this function for every game object (teams, sound, etc)?
20090826 11:48:45< YogiHH> euschn: yes, it is not a optimal solution in the context of object orientation. However it more or less elegantly solves the problem of exposing the complete functionality instead of a single method and therefore reduces dependencies a lot without having to change things too much.
20090826 11:50:06-!- Tigge_ is now known as Tigge
20090826 11:50:37< YogiHH> euschn: Basically, after looking at what amount of work it would be to change everything to OO, i asked myself "What would be the C-way to achieve what i want?"
20090826 11:50:47< Ivanovic> btw t-shirts are now shipping
20090826 11:51:01< Ivanovic> so in ~3 weeks  we should have some
20090826 11:51:34< euschn> YogiHH: isnt that the current state of the code already? e.g.: sound::write_music_playlist() =
20090826 11:51:39< euschn> s/=/?
20090826 11:52:54< YogiHH> euschn: yes, however atm, sound.hpp is to be included for that, which gives me much more than i want.
20090826 11:53:04< euschn> i see
20090826 11:54:51< euschn> YogiHH: so the idea is to add a header that defines the write_some_game_object() for all needed objects?
20090826 11:59:40< YogiHH> euschn: exactly
20090826 12:00:08< euschn> ok
20090826 12:03:02< euschn> YogiHH: how about adding this to savegame_config.hpp ? whether as static functions or freestanding ones in a savegame_config namespace?
20090826 12:04:22< YogiHH> euschn: sounds good
20090826 12:05:05< euschn> YogiHH: im pretty busy till friday, but Ill see if I can have a go at that at the weekend or start of next week
20090826 12:05:33< YogiHH> euschn: ok, nice
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20090826 12:08:05< YogiHH> off for lunch
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20090826 14:03:15< CIA-62> fendrin * r38112 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/01_overture.cfg: 
20090826 14:03:15< CIA-62> DM 01:
20090826 14:03:15< CIA-62> Added a commented theme=FullScreen attribute for the bright future.
20090826 14:07:56< CIA-62> fendrin * r38113 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/14_Human_Alliance.cfg: 
20090826 14:07:56< CIA-62> LoW 14: Code cleanups.
20090826 14:07:56< CIA-62> Added more TODOs for esr.
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20090826 14:11:02< YogiHH> fendrin, you know who maintains the tutorial atm?
20090826 14:14:07< fendrin> YogiHH: My guess is zookeeper.
20090826 14:26:34< zookeeper> more like no one :p
20090826 14:26:48< zookeeper> i might be able to help with something regarding the tutorial, though
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20090826 14:31:30< CIA-62> fendrin * r38114 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (3 files in 2 dirs): LoW 4,5: Moved some death events to the scenarios where they appear if not generic.
20090826 14:32:40< CIA-62> fendrin * r38115 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg: 
20090826 14:32:40< CIA-62> LoW 02:
20090826 14:32:40< CIA-62> Changed the Objectives and added many TODOs for esr.
20090826 14:33:55< CIA-62> fendrin * r38116 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/13_News_from_the_front.cfg: LoW 13: Changed the result from continue_nosave to continue.
20090826 14:35:44< CIA-62> fendrin * r38117 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/15_The_Treaty.cfg: LoW 15: Changed result=continue_nosave to result=continue.
20090826 14:36:40< CIA-62> fendrin * r38118 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/23_End_of_War.cfg: LoW 23: Code cleanup.
20090826 14:38:04< CIA-62> fendrin * r38119 /trunk/changelog: Fixed wrong spelling.
20090826 14:48:04< Ivanovic> YogiHH, euschn: any idea what the reason for "extremly long loading times" could be beside what i listed? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379570#p379570
20090826 14:48:25< Ivanovic> YogiHH: since you use windows yourself, it might be a good idea if you can reproduce this with a build by loonycyborg and your own build
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20090826 14:50:53< YogiHH> Ivanovic: unfortunately not. Atm, i work with an unoptimized release build on windows xp. Absolutely no problems with that, it is not super fast, but a lot faster than what was described there :/
20090826 14:51:31< Ivanovic> on my linux box compiled with cmake default settings (for trunk) and autotools default settings for branches/1.6 speed is perfectly fine
20090826 14:52:07< Ivanovic> loading a first turn save right after starting the game takes just some seconds (something between 3 and 5) and everything is there
20090826 14:54:07< Ivanovic> YogiHH: is there a way to create a list of currently running progs on windows?
20090826 14:54:36< Ivanovic> YogiHH: somehow we once had a problem like this on mac when one special notification demon was running in the background wesnoth would become unbearable slow
20090826 14:55:11< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Yep, there is the task manager, it shows you all running processes together with memory consumption and cpu usage
20090826 14:55:13< Ivanovic> i'd suspect either something like this or windows itself screwing around strangely or something with boost (iostreams) on windows
20090826 14:57:01< YogiHH> Ivanovic: I played that epic last scenario of "THoT" lately, with *lots* of units. With my unoptimized build, that takes like 5-10 seconds to load.
20090826 14:57:36< Ivanovic> as you saw in his last post he will retry on linux
20090826 14:57:44< Ivanovic> we will see if speed is different there for him
20090826 14:57:49< Ivanovic> (i'd guess so)
20090826 14:58:09< Ivanovic> YogiHH: it would be nice if you could also try with the official binary, it might be that something went wrong when it was built
20090826 14:59:22< YogiHH> Ivanovic: ok, will do when i got some time for it
20090826 14:59:28< Ivanovic> thanks
20090826 15:00:07< Ivanovic> it just sounds strange to me to see the amount of windows users complaining in the "speed is so low"-thread that have quite powerfull machines and take ages for loading and the likes
20090826 15:00:43< Ivanovic> (yes, with hundreds of addons and a slow harddrive this is normal, but not if everything in general is plain and freshly installed)
20090826 15:00:45< loonycyborg> In their case cpu isn't a limiting resource apparently..
20090826 15:00:57< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: neither cpu nor amount of ram
20090826 15:01:19< Ivanovic> so it can either be the harddrive, the progs running in parallel (virus scanner?) or the build
20090826 15:01:53< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38120 /trunk/ (410 files in 24 dirs): 
20090826 15:01:53< CIA-62> pot-update
20090826 15:01:53< CIA-62> regenerated doc files
20090826 15:04:57< loonycyborg> The cross-compiled one loads the first turn autosave in LoW very fast.
20090826 15:05:13< loonycyborg> (when run under wine that is)
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20090826 15:09:15< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38121 /branches/1.6/ (68 files in 2 dirs): 
20090826 15:09:15< CIA-62> pot-update (just references updated...)
20090826 15:09:15< CIA-62> regenerated doc files
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20090826 15:20:05< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: savegame load times are sane for me.
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20090826 15:33:52< loonycyborg> (That is with the 'official' binary on native windows)
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20090826 15:38:33< YogiHH> loonycyborg: Could trying (and failing) to establish a connection for uploading campaign results be a reason for slow loading?
20090826 15:39:29< loonycyborg> Who knows? Maybe.
20090826 15:39:49< loonycyborg> In fact a networking delay is a likely candidate.
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20090826 16:41:20< Ivanovic> YogiHH, loonycyborg: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379596#p379596
20090826 16:41:50< Ivanovic> so it is clearly specific to windows / the windows binary / progs running in the background of both
20090826 16:42:37< loonycyborg> Firewall maybe? :P
20090826 16:42:46< Ivanovic> could be
20090826 16:45:19-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 16:45:33< alink> hi
20090826 16:46:12< loonycyborg> hello, alink
20090826 16:46:15< Ivanovic> hi alink
20090826 16:46:22< Ivanovic> how are you?
20090826 16:46:25< Ivanovic> nice to see you around again
20090826 16:47:02< alink> good
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20090826 16:47:32< alink> and indeed, it was a long time without wesnoth
20090826 16:49:10< Ivanovic> :)
20090826 16:50:28< alink> proof is i am now busy to reconfiguring all my not-working-anymore setup (IDE, build, irc...)
20090826 16:50:40< Ivanovic> :)
20090826 16:53:02< zookeeper> err...spam? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/search.php?author_id=118189&sr=posts
20090826 16:54:05< Ivanovic> i'd just say stupid user
20090826 16:54:17< Ivanovic> so far there was no link or reference in his stuff
20090826 16:56:02< alink> yeah bots also have the rights to surf if they don't spam :)
20090826 16:56:24< Ivanovic> alink: by now some bots are smarter than many users
20090826 16:56:26< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 16:57:43< alink> (sadly) true
20090826 16:57:52< loonycyborg> Duplicating human stupidity is a hard problem :P
20090826 16:59:01< Ivanovic> you mean making a bot dumb enough
20090826 16:59:03< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 16:59:38< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: looks like the loading problem is not as simple as firewalling... http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379605#p379605
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20090826 17:06:38< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Note that I'm still running winXP SP2 and they are using SP3 or Vista.
20090826 17:07:18< loonycyborg> Also, probably closing AVG would be not enough to stop the firewall. These programs tend to be rather stubborn..
20090826 17:07:35< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: but removing the tick should stop data sending
20090826 17:07:46< Ivanovic> and without data sending the firewall should not be affected *at all* anymore
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20090826 18:46:53< noy> I'm going to make a public confession here people... let me prostrate myself in front of you all. 
20090826 18:46:59< noy> I'm sorry I terrorized you.
20090826 18:47:59< noy> I and the Random-Fundamentalist front (RFF) have waged a brutal, violent battle... and I must atone for my sins.  
20090826 18:48:22< shadowmaster> is that WRT to sauron's posts?
20090826 18:48:41< noy> yes
20090826 18:49:39< zookeeper> i thought he was referring to the other random-fundamentalists.
20090826 18:50:02< zookeeper> to the other kind of, i mean
20090826 18:50:39< noy> Oh he's going after me
20090826 18:50:54< noy> what other developer is there that supports this?
20090826 18:51:43 * Ivanovic is against random rants in the forum
20090826 18:51:51< Ivanovic> (or was it ranting against randomness?)
20090826 18:51:53< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 18:52:04< shadowmaster> I support the RNG
20090826 18:52:14< zookeeper> noy, supports what?
20090826 18:52:19 * Ivanovic redirects /dev/random to the forums
20090826 18:52:20< Ivanovic> ^^
20090826 18:52:33< zookeeper> i support sauron making his mod if it gives the luck whiners an alternative
20090826 18:52:42 * shadowmaster bans Ivanovic with reason "spambot"
20090826 18:52:58< noy> I mean who has been as vociferous in his support of randomness than I
20090826 18:52:59< shadowmaster> oh, and "flooding" :P
20090826 18:54:01< Ivanovic> uhm, but the combination "send post" was seldom
20090826 18:54:12< Ivanovic> so i just flooded single replies with random rants
20090826 18:54:27< zookeeper> oh well, i guess i just read his post sloppily
20090826 18:55:41< shadowmaster> "The thread in Users is not mod's thread - it is just 'teaser' and explanation for mod making/reasons that made me write. It is also (tin minor extent) a humorist polemic with thread Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale."
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20090826 18:56:02< shadowmaster> this is how he described the "Luck in Wesnoth: Irrationale" thread to me last night
20090826 18:56:11< shadowmaster> typos aren't mine.
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20090826 19:14:55< boucman> hey all
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20090826 19:42:45< Ivanovic> okay, regarding the addon server
20090826 19:42:57< Ivanovic> i know that dave dislikes the resource usage of it
20090826 19:43:18< Ivanovic> and IIRC he thinks that there are most likely better ways to get it done with cleaner code and all the likes than it currently happens
20090826 19:43:31< Ivanovic> currently it goes via sdl-net just like all the other stuff
20090826 19:43:46< Soliton> what would be nice is to integrate the addon server directly into a web server
20090826 19:44:02< Soliton> instead of the hacky web interface we have now.
20090826 19:46:16< Daekon> Is there a site i can go ahead and get some docs on how to get my environment setup/where to download the source to run this stuff?
20090826 19:46:16< boucman> Daekon: you could start by reading the current code (if you havn't already
20090826 19:46:27< Daekon> yeah, i havent yet:) ^^
20090826 19:46:32< boucman> Daekon: did you compile wesnoth yet ?
20090826 19:47:21< Daekon> No, i just spoke with Dave about a day or two ago. So i'm pretty new to this. I'm guessing there is a dev site i can download the source/get dev docs from?
20090826 19:47:37< Daekon> actually maybe 3-4 days ago. :)
20090826 19:47:38< Ivanovic> 1) which OS are you on?
20090826 19:47:43< Ivanovic> (okay, probably linux)
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20090826 19:47:44< Daekon> Vista <groan>
20090826 19:47:49< Ivanovic> UGH
20090826 19:47:54< Daekon> i can set up a dual boot tho, not a problem
20090826 19:47:56< Ivanovic> then compiling really will be "challenging"
20090826 19:47:57< boucman> ouch
20090826 19:47:58< Daekon> or a VM
20090826 19:48:15< Daekon> my machine can handle a VM with a linux boot or what not if needed.
20090826 19:48:44< boucman> Daekon: since your code will have to run on linux, you might as well install a linux
20090826 19:48:54< boucman> (vm or native... doesn't really matter
20090826 19:48:59< Daekon> yepyep
20090826 19:49:02< Ivanovic> getting things to compile under windows is some work and the result of your work has to run (perfectly ;) ) on linux
20090826 19:49:15< loonycyborg> Can vms utilize multiple cores?
20090826 19:49:20< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yes
20090826 19:49:28< loonycyborg> VirtualBox can't yet AFAIK
20090826 19:49:36< Daekon> vmware i think utilizes multiple cores,no?
20090826 19:49:39< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: that is vmware on linux can make use of "many" cores
20090826 19:50:26< loonycyborg> Can it expose multiple cores to the guest os?
20090826 19:50:41< loonycyborg> So you could run parallel compilations..
20090826 19:51:43< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yes, it can
20090826 19:53:26< loonycyborg> Well. I guess using a vm will work too. Provided that your cpu has virtualization extensions enabled.
20090826 19:54:29< boucman> Daekon: we might not be the best experts about VM, install any linux distro in a VM and we'll help you about wesnoth compiling after that...
20090826 19:54:33< YogiHH> ilor, you happen to know how to determine the size of a grid cell in gui2?
20090826 19:55:00< YogiHH> ilor: actually, i meant set, not determine
20090826 19:55:29< Daekon> Yepyep
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20090826 20:08:03< noy> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379648#p379648
20090826 20:08:11< noy> anybody think I've gone over the line with this?
20090826 20:11:22< shadowmaster> I don't like the "Iguess this is a rant directed at me"; sounds pretty much like sauron's "yet another luck thread that must be locked immediately, cause it will be undoubtedly turned into flame-war[...]" but that's just me *shrugs*
20090826 20:12:54< Soliton> yeah, i'd remove the personal attack part. just risks that he'll be focusing on how it wasn't in a response.
20090826 20:13:17-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 20:14:12< noy> and who might " To some extent I think the random-fundamentalists are terrorizing he whole community - including other developers and players." refer to?
20090826 20:14:25< noy> you don't think thats the most obvious reference to me?
20090826 20:14:28< noy> seriously? 
20090826 20:14:44< Soliton> the point is that it doesn't matter.
20090826 20:15:10< Soliton> that only risks making into more of a flamewar as it already is.
20090826 20:15:38< noy> How is this is not already?
20090826 20:15:56< Soliton> i agree that that is a very poorly made post of sauron but it doesn't help to respond to that part.
20090826 20:16:07< noy> All it is is a rant agaisnt the community. 
20090826 20:16:36< noy> and if the five other attempts at this is any indication, the mod will fail just like all the others. 
20090826 20:16:44< Sapient> I guess no one else see's the irony of someone named "Sauron" calling you an evil tyrant
20090826 20:16:53< ancestral> Hehe
20090826 20:17:30< Soliton> noy: well, then just lock the thread.
20090826 20:18:13< shadowmaster> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379532#p379532
20090826 20:18:25< shadowmaster> he wants to make a point by making us bash him apparently.
20090826 20:18:50< shadowmaster> so it'd be better we ignore him instead for now. (just my opinion)
20090826 20:18:51< noy> shadowmaster: thats why I've deliberately posted what I did
20090826 20:19:09< Aethaeryn> noy: If I were a mod, I would've locked it before anyone replied, quoting the first sentence with one word "Yes."
20090826 20:19:42< shadowmaster> which would accomplish his mission.
20090826 20:19:43< Soliton> i would tell him to try again in a less inflamatory way.
20090826 20:20:51< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Yes. Which is why I've stayed away from posting in that thread.
20090826 20:21:48< noy> Well I'll be honest here... I posted what I did here to make a point: I've been available for a reasoned debate on this. 
20090826 20:22:36< noy> Yet I've just been called a tyrant and the like. 
20090826 20:22:42< Aethaeryn> Luck is awesome.
20090826 20:22:53< noy> So... basically thats the point. 
20090826 20:23:05< noy> I just wanted to point out how completely ridiculous he looks. 
20090826 20:23:13< Aethaeryn> I mean, I had an embarrassingly horrible round in a 2v2 once, where I missed 6 or 7 50% ctks in a row.
20090826 20:23:25< Aethaeryn> But I've also seen a 80% cth that needed to be made miss...
20090826 20:23:44< Aethaeryn> I've been on both sides, and I just make light of it. It really is funny when the best plans fail.
20090826 20:25:01< noy> um we don't need your discourses on luck here Aethaeryn 
20090826 20:25:10< noy> its not the place for it.
20090826 20:25:41-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 20:25:50 * loonycyborg wonders why there aren't as much luck issues with other randomized combat systems
20090826 20:25:53< Aethaeryn> Eh, sorry.
20090826 20:26:40< Aethaeryn> Just wanted to say that bad luck happens. It happens in RL too. No luck = boring in a TBS. Maybe in an RTS, but boring for a TBS. You'd literally see turn-by-turn walkthroughs telling you exactly what to do in campaigns. Some other games have it.
20090826 20:26:52< Soliton> ah well, i guess i'll have to post there, too. :-P
20090826 20:27:47-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 20:28:02< mordante> servus
20090826 20:30:54< mordante> Ivanovic, how much resources does the current addon server take?
20090826 20:31:19< Ivanovic> mordante: i don't know (and am too lazy to check it right now)
20090826 20:31:57< Soliton> collectd.wesnoth.org
20090826 20:33:15< YogiHH> noy: i think as well it was not a good idea to start with complaining about terrorizing people. I also think it was directed at you, due to the earlier discussions. But...
20090826 20:33:49< YogiHH> noy: If you have read my comment on it, you saw that i addressed this already and asked sauron to stop it
20090826 20:34:00< Soliton> alink: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379625#p379625
20090826 20:34:27< YogiHH> noy: And if you still want to comment on it, i think doing it via PM is the way better way for that
20090826 20:34:57< YogiHH> noy: I mean we are asking forum members to do that all the time. And for a reason
20090826 20:35:04< noy> loonycyborg: because I think this game is a little more popular than other games and maybe dips into a wider audience of people... many of whom are probably not as acquainted with randomness systems. 
20090826 20:35:41< noy> YogiHH: my post was aimed at wider stereotypes, though I made oblique references to his comments. 
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20090826 20:36:50< wajimba> what tools do you guys use to manipulate text in database format?
20090826 20:37:20< Sapient> umm... SQL ?
20090826 20:37:26< wajimba> I have a list of cellphone contacts that I want to organize, I need to trim a prefix off and put it on the end
20090826 20:37:43< boucman> wajimba: why are you asking here ?
20090826 20:37:48< shadowmaster> for plain text files I'd use sed.
20090826 20:38:03< shadowmaster> (or... Perl!) <hides>
20090826 20:38:16 * boucman uses vi on the command line
20090826 20:38:20 * boucman hides even more
20090826 20:38:29< Sapient> in related news, I found my Perl book
20090826 20:38:57 * Ivanovic throws bash+cut+grep+echo into the mix...
20090826 20:38:58< loonycyborg> Why would you want a Perl book when you have the Internet? :P
20090826 20:38:59< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 20:39:07-!- wajimba1 [n=Andrew_A@24-158-30-63.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 20:39:20< mordante> YogiHH, I saw you comments in the log, will try to reproduce later tonight
20090826 20:39:27< wajimba1> I'm asking here because I figured if it's not the best place to discuss, people would know where would be a good place
20090826 20:39:34< mordante> thanks Soliton 
20090826 20:39:40< Sapient> wajimba1: try #sql
20090826 20:41:36< mordante> Ivanovic, I might have a look at the campaign server, but since my plate is really full no promises
20090826 20:41:57< Ivanovic> plate?
20090826 20:42:17< Ivanovic> and i think there is no need for you to have a look at the campaign server
20090826 20:42:19< mordante> YogiHH, what grid cell size do you want to set
20090826 20:44:09< shadowmaster> mordante: you haven't had time to look at my unit-create dialog issue, I guess :(
20090826 20:44:10< mordante> Ivanovic, full plate == viel am Hals haben
20090826 20:44:20< Ivanovic> ahhh
20090826 20:44:22< mordante> shadowmaster, no :-(
20090826 20:44:32< shadowmaster> :(
20090826 20:45:09< mordante> Ivanovic, but maybe I want to have a look at it ;-)
20090826 20:45:20< mordante> want to get a bit more experience with boost asio
20090826 20:45:21< Ivanovic> mordante: ah, okay
20090826 20:45:51< Ivanovic> mordante: i would give you a good hug if you finally managed to find the time to add po4a support to the cmake recipe
20090826 20:45:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 20:46:26< mordante> the good news is I was waiting for a pot-update to continue on the pot update part ;-)
20090826 20:46:30-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 20:46:37< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Just use scons ;)
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20090826 20:47:17< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: nah
20090826 20:49:32-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 20:49:47 * loonycyborg would really like to phase out both obsolete makefile generators
20090826 20:50:48 * shadowmaster would really like to phase out Python
20090826 20:50:50< shadowmaster> ^^
20090826 20:51:23< loonycyborg> With Haskell preferably :P
20090826 20:52:16< Soliton> mordante: i'd just integrate the addon server in a web server and have wesnoth access it that way instead of making up another custom server.
20090826 20:52:51< mordante> Soliton, how do you want to handle the wescamp intergration?
20090826 20:52:58< mordante> integration*
20090826 20:54:28< Soliton> what is needed there?
20090826 20:54:39< Soliton> just another client?
20090826 20:55:53< mordante> it needs to send updates to an svn and fetch the results back on a regular basis
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20090826 20:56:19< mordante> I now do that manually, but it was intended to be integrated at some point
20090826 20:57:09< Soliton> well, have a script do that run every now and then.
20090826 20:57:51< Soliton> i mean you have the data plain on the filesystem and can do whatever you want with it?
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20090826 20:58:07< mordante> true
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20090826 20:58:51< mordante> still would like to use it as an experiment to test with boost asio
20090826 21:00:08< Soliton> well, our network code is shared, why would that be specific to the addon server?
20090826 21:01:40< mordante> to experiment with it, we know what we have with SDL_Net and think boost asio is better
20090826 21:01:43-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090826 21:01:52< mordante> so why not test it for the least important network code
20090826 21:01:54-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090826 21:02:28< Soliton> why does it matter what code you *test* with? :-)
20090826 21:02:39< Soliton> surely we'd only actually use it once it works.
20090826 21:03:07< fabi> loonycyborg: hurray for haskel
20090826 21:03:46< Soliton> anyhow, you can do what you want of course, i just think the solution i outlined would be preferably in the long term.
20090826 21:06:34< mordante> of course we only want to use it once it work, but that needs testing and I prefer to do that on a part that's not too important
20090826 21:07:11< mordante> and I wouldn't mind to have the code replaced later
20090826 21:07:51< mordante> but thanks for letting me know you intent to do it differently later
20090826 21:07:54< Soliton> well, that seems like an odd philosophy to improve the least important part first. :-)
20090826 21:09:53< mordante> no the philosophy is: if you make a big change which might break things, use it on the least important part first ;-)
20090826 21:10:42< boucman> mordante: nope, the wesnoth philo is "make a branch for it, and integrate it in one go later" :)
20090826 21:11:23< mordante> please don't use the b word ;-)
20090826 21:12:12< Soliton> big change == improvement for me usually, otherwise it seems pointless.
20090826 21:12:50< Soliton> it's simple to go back to the old method for any part.
20090826 21:13:08< mordante> _break things_ is not something I like to commit
20090826 21:14:17< boucman> mordante: at this point, it might be worth starting a branch to merge in 1.9.0
20090826 21:14:35< boucman> (if we stay with our more or less six month stable release plan we had at some point
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20090826 21:15:51< mordante> ahh b word again
20090826 21:15:54< shadowmaster> if it doesn't have to share sources with wesnoth then a branch is perfectly fine
20090826 21:16:21< mordante> I was more thinking about a an addon_server directory so it can be coded in trunk
20090826 21:16:24< shadowmaster> okay, okay, I'm the only one wo wishes campaignd didn't share sources with wesnoth.
20090826 21:16:53< shadowmaster> (or "umcd" which is how I wanted to rename it)
20090826 21:16:53< mordante> shadowmaster, and reimplement the config code?
20090826 21:17:18< mordante> hmm I like that name as well
20090826 21:17:18< shadowmaster> eh, right. That.
20090826 21:21:24< boucman> shadowmaster: it currently shares the network code, which is a good thing... that code is fragile and having it tested as much as possible is a good thing
20090826 21:21:38< shadowmaster> :(
20090826 21:21:39< boucman> (which is one of the reason I'm glad someone is cleaning that up)
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20090826 21:36:58< YogiHH> mordante: i want to set the cell width
20090826 21:37:06-!- Girgistian [n=Girgisti@dsl-roibrasgw1-ff3ec100-114.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit]
20090826 21:37:37< shadowmaster> hi alink, long time no see
20090826 21:37:59< alink> hello shadowmaster, and indeed
20090826 21:38:34< mordante> hi alink indeed long ago
20090826 21:38:52< alink> 'lo mordante
20090826 21:38:56< mordante> YogiHH, that's not directly possible, but can you explain a bit more of your usage case?
20090826 21:38:57-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090826 21:42:18< YogiHH> mordante: i have two widgets that i want to place directly beneath each other. I tried to work with spacers, but i can't find a way to achieve that.
20090826 21:44:25-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090826 21:44:35< mordante> do the widgets need to have the same width?
20090826 21:51:45< YogiHH> mordante: no
20090826 21:53:49< mordante> YogiHH, can you paste the code and tell which part is not working as expected? 
20090826 21:55:59< CIA-62> jhinrichs * r38122 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/game_load.cfg: Improve the layout of the game-load dialog.
20090826 21:57:04< YogiHH> mordante: there is the latest dialog config. I want the two checkboxes to be beneath each other on the left side, and the ok and cancel buttons the same on the right.
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20090826 21:57:47< mordante> YogiHH, ok thanks, will have a look in a sec
20090826 21:57:53< Soliton> YogiHH: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379597#p379597  that savegame causes an assert when trying to view as a replay. seems to have no replay data at all.
20090826 21:58:35< Soliton> also i have no idea how he managed to produce it since it seems to have not triggered some move to events.
20090826 22:01:01< Soliton> hmm, actually just replay_start is empty but the replay data is under replay, no?
20090826 22:01:29< YogiHH> Soliton: yes, but without replay_start it is useless
20090826 22:01:44< Soliton> no starting position?
20090826 22:02:16< Soliton> campaign_type="scenario"
20090826 22:02:25< Soliton> some odd stuff in that replay.
20090826 22:02:34< Soliton> err, save.
20090826 22:02:39< mordante> ilor, how is it with your new system, did you get your parts?
20090826 22:03:13< ilor> mordante: yeah parts are sort of all over my floor at the moment :P
20090826 22:03:15< fabi> esr: Do you want me to silence LoW by disabling wmllint with the new issues?
20090826 22:03:35< ilor> mordante: cpu cooler is somewhat a PITA to install, sadly
20090826 22:03:59< mordante> ilor, what cooler did you buy?
20090826 22:04:09< ilor> scythe mugen 2
20090826 22:04:34< Soliton> nevermind, seems like scenario is the type fo campaigns.
20090826 22:06:20-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090826 22:08:57< mordante> it's huge
20090826 22:09:24< esr> fabi: Let me run it and take a look, first.
20090826 22:10:04< Ivanovic> esr: would be nice if you could have a look at the spelling mistakes website
20090826 22:10:17< Ivanovic> esr: stikonas complained yesterday that it would be huge by now
20090826 22:10:22< esr> Ivanovic: Noted.
20090826 22:10:24< Ivanovic> (only apply the changes to trunk that is)
20090826 22:11:21< CIA-62> fendrin * r38123 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/23_End_of_War.cfg: LoW 23: More speech stubs.
20090826 22:11:41< Crab_> mordante: what do you recommend for displaying hierarchy of information ? i.e. there's a tree of information, and lots of rarely-needed details in leafs.
20090826 22:11:42< fabi> esr: please do a svn update before you run wmllint.
20090826 22:12:40< esr> Of course.
20090826 22:13:30< mordante> Crab_, there's no tree widget yet :-( so guess either use the old gui or start to work on a new widget
20090826 22:13:43< Crab_> mordante: any poor-man-solution ?
20090826 22:14:08< Crab_> mordante: if i just want to hide some info until it's asked for
20090826 22:14:12< fabi> esr: wmllint should convert the depricate result=continue and result=continue_nosave they are deprecated.
20090826 22:14:12< ilor> mordante: huge is one thing (I know it fits in my case, seen a photo ;P), installation requiring two people is another
20090826 22:14:26< mordante> Crab_,  is it a fixed number or items to be hidden?
20090826 22:14:39< mordante> ilor, O_O
20090826 22:14:42< Crab_> mordante: known at runtime
20090826 22:14:50< esr> fabi: Convert them to what?
20090826 22:15:01< Crab_> mordante: e.g. 'ai has N stages, M goals, X aspects'
20090826 22:15:20< mordante> Crab_, is there a maximum number of them?
20090826 22:15:49< Crab_> mordante: in theory - no, in practice - around 30.
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20090826 22:17:32< Soliton> fabi: silene mentioned that there is no way to do that or at least that he didn't find one when he converted mainline.
20090826 22:17:41< Crab_> mordante: regarding the 'tree widget' - if you point me to the 'good enough' documentation, I can try.
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20090826 22:19:12< fabi> Soliton: Sorry, what are you talking about?
20090826 22:19:30< Soliton> you're last message.
20090826 22:19:32< mordante> Crab_, there's no documentation for creating new widgets
20090826 22:19:37< Soliton> your*
20090826 22:20:15< Crab_> mordante: any good example widget that I can reverse-engineer ?
20090826 22:21:17< mordante> well I hope my code is documented enough to avoid reverse-engineering :-/
20090826 22:22:08< mordante> let me think of the best widget
20090826 22:22:48< fabi> esr: continue_no_save should be converted to bonus=no save=no carryover_report=no result=victory linger_mode=no carryover_percentage=100
20090826 22:24:09< fabi> esr: continue should be converted to bonus=no save=yes carryover_report=no result=victory linger_mode=no carryover_percentage=100
20090826 22:24:20< mordante> Crab_, maybe have a look at the listbox it has scrollbars and a way to generate new items
20090826 22:25:14< mordante> Crab_, it might be you need a special generator class but not sure
20090826 22:25:16< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r38124 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Naga Myrmidon portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090826 22:25:56< Crab_> mordante: ok. and then, another (I hope, easier-to-do) question. Imagine the situation: I want to pause AI turn and take a look at the map (scrolling, looking at labels, units, etc) until I click some button like 'continue' or press some hotkey.
20090826 22:26:43< Crab_> mordante: to do the first part, I can do while( condition ) { ai::manager::raise_user_interact(); sleep(10); }
20090826 22:26:59< mordante> Crab_, that would be the persistent dialog we discussed not that long ago
20090826 22:27:00< Crab_> mordante: the question is 'what is the best way to do that ' until I click some button like 'continue' or press some hotkey.' part
20090826 22:30:22< fabi> Soliton: maybe wmllint can't convert a single attribute into multiple.
20090826 22:30:30< Crab_> boucman: note: I've rewritten the EasyCoding section about the AI-related tasks
20090826 22:30:55< boucman> Crab_: I'll check right away
20090826 22:31:22< mordante> btw Crab_ I have a draft for a new dialog tutorial, only need to compile test what I wrote ;-)
20090826 22:31:32< Crab_> mordante: that's good
20090826 22:31:57< mordante> now find the time for compilation :-/
20090826 22:31:57< Soliton> fabi: i doubt it and it's irrelevant if you convert the same stuff differently each time.
20090826 22:32:22< boucman> Crab_: multiple little notes
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20090826 22:32:41< Soliton> alink_: did you get the link i gave you earlier?
20090826 22:32:51< boucman> relocate code is easy coding, but it's "too easy" and don't alow us to see what the author is worth...
20090826 22:33:15< boucman> and since the only way to do it is to ask you where to put it, there is nothing interesting to do...
20090826 22:33:23< boucman> same thing about renaming
20090826 22:33:37< boucman> the other ones are fine
20090826 22:33:57< mordante> Crab_, the unit tests seem to hang in the test_move test at scenario.play();
20090826 22:34:11< Crab_> boucman: well, actually 'setting up a compiling environment and submitting a patch' is not a small step :)
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20090826 22:34:28< boucman> depends on your OS :P
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20090826 22:35:06< boucman> apt-get build-dep wesnoth ; apt-get install svn ; <command line from gna to get source> ; scons
20090826 22:35:12< Crab_> boucman: yes, its from an 'very easy coding' category :)
20090826 22:35:35< loonycyborg> boucman: apt-get build-dep wesnoth tends to miss dependencies ;)
20090826 22:35:51< boucman> Crab_: from a dev, i don't consider that being able to compile is something we should consider as a proof of coding cpacity
20090826 22:36:42< Crab_> boucman: yes, but easy coding tasks, imo, should serve not only as 'proof of coding capability' to us, but as 'I can do it, too' thing for new coders.
20090826 22:36:49< loonycyborg> (since new dependencies are often added in trunk and distros often provide stable versions)
20090826 22:37:22< Crab_> boucman: so, maybe I'll add a 'very easy AI-related tasks' section and group that things there ?
20090826 22:37:43< boucman> ok, make sense
20090826 22:37:48< mordante> loonycyborg, just use experimental ;-)
20090826 22:38:26< Crab_> boucman: since if someone does something simple, we can just ask to do something 'more harder and more interesting' as a second patch.
20090826 22:38:35< boucman> indeed
20090826 22:40:35< CIA-62> mordante * r38125 /trunk/ (14 files in 4 dirs): Remove the boost 1.33 code in the unit tests.
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20090826 22:43:06< mordante> YogiHH, seconds that a long time in the Netherlands ;-) you want the ok and cancel underneath or next to eachother?
20090826 22:50:48< alink_> Soliton: no sorry, didn't see it. Seems that i still need to finish to configure my irc clent
20090826 22:51:17< Soliton> alink: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=379625#p379625
20090826 22:52:01< alink_> Soliton: yeah it's indeed related to a "feature" that I added
20090826 22:52:10< alink_> well, it was random before
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20090826 22:52:31< Soliton> there is another thread was a solution.
20090826 22:52:38< Soliton> s/was/with/
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20090826 22:53:12< Soliton> i think just prefering to move through your own units.
20090826 22:53:17< alink> Easy to remove but I added it for reasons
20090826 22:54:09< Soliton> avoid collisions with allied units, yes?
20090826 22:54:11< alink> 1) it make blocked goto less frequent, (pathfinding passing by units causes unit to not be able to use all its MP in multi-turn moves)
20090826 22:54:39< Soliton> but that is not a solution there anyway.
20090826 22:54:49< alink> 2) the case where 2 units share a hex is actually an ugly special case
20090826 22:55:38< alink> the unit can't stop there and and are in fact blind during the move
20090826 22:55:41< Soliton> what case is that?
20090826 22:56:06< Soliton> well, why would it need to stop?
20090826 22:56:17< alink> spotting fogged units
20090826 22:56:21< Soliton> sighted events?
20090826 22:56:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.4 planned for Sunday | 83 bugs, 242 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090826 22:56:29< YogiHH> mordante: next to each other, please
20090826 22:56:39< Soliton> right, so how is it handled now when you move over a village?
20090826 22:56:49< alink> Soliton: WML sighted event and normal unit discovering
20090826 22:56:55< Soliton> you simply can't solve that afaict.
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20090826 22:57:46< Soliton> you just have spot the unit one hex later or whenever is possible.
20090826 22:57:52< CIA-62> mordante * r38126 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/game_load.cfg: Several layout fixes for the game load dialog.
20090826 22:57:54< mordante> YogiHH, ok, assume that, can you have a look of this is what you wanted ^
20090826 22:58:00< mordante> assumed*
20090826 22:58:56< alink> Soliton: yes that's 2 things which can be changed
20090826 22:59:43< alink> Soliton: but OTOH, note that for ambush, changing this pathfinding behavior is also not enough
20090826 23:00:24< alink> mmh, ah wait no, you can always manually define the path by doing 1-hex moves
20090826 23:01:26< alink> so indeed, if the blocked goto, fog removal, WML events are cleaned, then passing by units is clearly better
20090826 23:01:59< Soliton> alink: btw, ideally i think you could be able to give the exact path to move by your mouse path.
20090826 23:02:21< Soliton> would avoid the need to move in steps.
20090826 23:02:36< alink> Soliton: yeah always wanted to try that, but you need a key to toggle it
20090826 23:02:46< Soliton> and since we record the complete move now that should work right over the network, too. i think.
20090826 23:02:52< Soliton> alink: yes, probably.
20090826 23:02:54< alink> pathfing engine is smarter than human for finding shortese path
20090826 23:03:23< alink> Soliton: ideed the network protocol support that now
20090826 23:05:03< isaac> jjjjj
20090826 23:05:10< alink> in fact, IIRC that was one of the reasons why i added sending the the full path  (easily support future pathfinding features)
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20090826 23:07:52< YogiHH> hrmpf, the AI people are far too productive (still compiling) :-P
20090826 23:08:45< mordante> I've that problem as well ;-P
20090826 23:09:59< Crab_> boucman: added a task to NotSoEasyCoding, as well
20090826 23:10:24< boucman> what is it ?
20090826 23:10:35< Crab_> boucman: 'Move and targeting phase'
20090826 23:10:57< boucman> complicated indeed
20090826 23:11:21< Crab_> boucman: RCA approach doesn't fit that phase
20090826 23:11:37< YogiHH> mordante: ah, sweet :)
20090826 23:12:00< Crab_> boucman: that stage (as a whole) can be a candidate action, but that stage is hard to do as QUICK rca loop.
20090826 23:12:02< boucman> well, with a candidate action that targets "for or shroud" it could be solved with RCA, but since we have better tools for the job...
20090826 23:12:08< mordante> YogiHH, as you wanted?
20090826 23:12:16< Crab_> boucman: note concern #1
20090826 23:12:16< YogiHH> mordante: yes, thank you
20090826 23:12:31< mordante> YogiHH, you're welcome
20090826 23:13:15< Crab_> boucman: in 99% cases, we can just do '1 move per unit which is far from enemy', with calculating move maps exactly once.
20090826 23:13:39< Crab_> boucman: since in 99% cases, there's no ambush/wml moveto events
20090826 23:13:48< boucman> is this project only about units that are "far enough" from ennemies ?
20090826 23:13:53< Crab_> boucman: yes
20090826 23:14:09< Crab_> boucman: since those which are 'close to enemy' will be moved by RCA/combat phase/retreat phase/etc
20090826 23:14:16< Crab_> boucman: do you remember NR:Showdown ?
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20090826 23:14:26< Ivanovic> mordante: so still no news regarding your new machine?
20090826 23:14:53< Crab_> boucman: all those orcs turns in the center, they should be done with only one move map/targets/strategy recalculation.
20090826 23:15:08< Crab_> boucman: so, they should take *seconds*, not *hours*
20090826 23:15:10< boucman> i don't "remember" it, I'm an awful wesnoth player and I never reached that scenarion
20090826 23:15:16< Crab_> boucman: 80+ bats ?
20090826 23:15:29< boucman> yes, I knew what you meant :)
20090826 23:15:39< mordante> Ivanovic, there's news, I got a call today it should be finished... but after the last time I first want to see it before believing it ;-)
20090826 23:15:47< Ivanovic> :)
20090826 23:16:05< Ivanovic> so if you're lucky you can test the new box this weekend
20090826 23:16:07< Ivanovic> ;)
20090826 23:16:25< mordante> if I'm lucky I can pick it up tomorrow evening :-)
20090826 23:16:29< boucman> Crab_: shouldn't this simplified rebuild of srcdst be handled by the engine ? or is it only really used in the case of moving units from far and thus not worth specializing
20090826 23:17:05< mordante> but I don't want to get to optimistic, the last time was rather depressing :-(
20090826 23:17:12< Crab_> boucman: rebuilt of srcdst is only ~20% of time total (somewhat more with 'avoid' aspect in effect)
20090826 23:17:29< Ivanovic> mordante: that is why i was going the "safe" way saying "this weekend"
20090826 23:17:43< Crab_> boucman: ai_default uses 'get targets, dispatch best unit to best target, maybe add more targets, repeat'
20090826 23:17:51< boucman> 20% of an hour is 12'
20090826 23:17:53< mordante> Ivanovic, well it depends on whether this shop managed to do as promised...
20090826 23:17:59< boucman> so still worth optimising :)
20090826 23:18:13< boucman> do you know what is long in these ai calculations ?
20090826 23:19:17< Crab_> boucman: A* inside a loop inside a loop
20090826 23:19:28< boucman> ouch
20090826 23:19:34< Crab_> boucman: 'get the best unit to handle this target'
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20090826 23:20:05< Crab_> boucman: see that old graph - ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/ai_2009may16_r35649_bs2000.jpg
20090826 23:20:31< Crab_> boucman: then, forget about manager::raise_user_interact
20090826 23:21:46< Crab_> boucman: remains: 10% in calculation of movement maps, 50% in A* in choose_move; after accounting for raise_user_interact, it becomes: 15% for move maps, 75% for A* in choose_move.
20090826 23:22:05< boucman> hmm
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20090826 23:23:42< Crab_> the problem with 'simplified rebuild of srcdst' that we need a *reliable* flag "oops, someone - any part of c++ code - has touched the unit map" to get it right in all cases.
20090826 23:24:08< boucman> hmm
20090826 23:24:16< alink> Crab_: or someone has touched the fog/shroud
20090826 23:24:20< boucman> build an "observer" around the unit map ?
20090826 23:24:21< Crab_> but, in 'movement away from enemies' we can get away with a simple check 'src is unoccupied, dst is unoccupied, last move was no ambush' in 99% cases
20090826 23:25:50< Crab_> alink: no, fog\shroud are not important atm, since AI ignores them.
20090826 23:26:20< alink> Crab_: ah, I thought it was planned to be changed
20090826 23:26:46< Crab_> alink: planned -yes. but it's of lower priority that getting 'movement and targeting phase' right.
20090826 23:27:32< alink> ok, but then you also need to watch if WML changed the terrain (which is rare and easier to control)
20090826 23:27:33< Crab_> alink: since if we change that, then we'll just abort 'movement and targeting phase' if any units were discovered during the last move - ai movement code already has support for this.
20090826 23:27:38< Crab_> alink: yes
20090826 23:28:19< Crab_> alink: basically, for 'movement and targeting' part we can get away with 'try moving, abort if something weird happens' approach. and it'll be faster.
20090826 23:28:23< alink> Crab_: I admit that I have forget the little I knew about the different AI phase :-/
20090826 23:28:49< Crab_> alink: it is the phase which controls movement of units when enemy is away
20090826 23:28:58< Crab_> alink: and it's *slow*.
20090826 23:29:33< alink> is it the choose_move fonction ?
20090826 23:29:46< Crab_> alink: yes. move_to_targets, which calls choose_move
20090826 23:30:30< Crab_> alink: it's important since almost no one will care if ai is 20% faster/slower on some small map where it's already fast enough. but, it'll be very good if the ai became much faster on those maps where it's currently very slow.
20090826 23:31:18< alink> IIRC I had a potentialy nice idea for speeding this in 1.6 just when I left months ago. 2 min, Let me remember or find it again
20090826 23:32:55< Crab_> alink: ok. the starting situation is "we have N units which were ignored by combat/retreat/get_village code - so, they probably have no (interesting) attacks  or are away from enemy. "
20090826 23:34:10< Crab_> alink: this stage must be tunable. currently it's done by specifying 'targets' (via new-style goal tag [working atm], or via old-style target tag [target is broken atm] ). the most effective targets are 'whom to kill' and 'which villages to capture' 
20090826 23:35:02< alink> I can't find my code but in any cases it was for the default AI only
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20090826 23:35:24< alink> Here is the idea to opimize the case when there is a lot of targets:
20090826 23:35:50< YogiHH> anyone familiar with the "save"-attribute for scenario WML?
20090826 23:36:57< alink> Crab_: evaluate a quick strictly optimistic value for each target (no A*, just use distance and take the maximum of possible "if" for encounter etc.. )
20090826 23:37:25< alink> Crab_: sort the target by these optimistic values and loop on that
20090826 23:38:48< Crab_> alink: after 1st step, we'll have a vector of { target, unit , simple_distance, optimistic_value } structures
20090826 23:38:53< alink> mmh i have trouble to remember the details 
20090826 23:40:15< alink> Crab_: anyways the idea was that we want to begin to start with the most promising target and when it checks, be able to say ok, the following target can never beat that, forget them
20090826 23:40:35< Crab_> alink: note that there's also a question of 'grouping'
20090826 23:41:10< Crab_> alink: i.e. the target is a peasant, but it's surrounded by 30+ heavy infantry. how many units (and which ones) we should send to attack it ?
20090826 23:42:17< Crab_> alink: this is done badly by current ai. A typical case in MP: AI sees that the map has water. AI recruits a fish. AI checks for targets. AI sees a good target, but it's on land. AI happily sends that fish to battle on land.
20090826 23:42:22< alink> i don't know about that, but i don't think it's relevant, at least from what i saw in the old AI code
20090826 23:43:00< Crab_> alink: it's somewhat relevant because it adds some complexity to current ai_default targeting loop.
20090826 23:43:53< alink> the point we have a list of different costy A*+some tactic things to evaluate the values of each targets, and we currenlty fully evaluate all the targets before chosing the best one
20090826 23:44:13< Crab_> alink: I'll try your optimization or a variant of it.
20090826 23:45:16< alink> if we have a quicker "maximum possible value" of a target, we can reject any of them which have lower optimist value than our current best one
20090826 23:45:56< alink> that already allow to skip some target in the loop
20090826 23:45:57< Crab_> alink: yes, that's understood. so, we skip some targets..
20090826 23:48:16< alink> The next step, is sorting them by this optimistic value and so find sooner the best target which its high value will allow to skip more targets
20090826 23:48:55< alink> and if they are sorted by strict-optimist value we can even exit the loop at some point
20090826 23:49:56< alink> IIRC it was possible in the 1.6 AI because it had dumb test and so was easy to find a maximum value
20090826 23:50:20< mordante> I'm off night
20090826 23:50:26< alink> gn mordante
20090826 23:50:33-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090826 23:53:30< alink> mmh alternatively, we could also start with the cheap target (A* to a short distance), hoping that they will allow to skip the more costy ones
--- Log closed Thu Aug 27 00:00:51 2009