--- Log opened Sat Aug 29 00:00:12 2009
20090829 00:02:12< CIA-62> ai0867 * r38165 /trunk/src/filesystem.cpp: Remove deprecated {@include/file.cfg} functionality, leave in an stderr message explaining this.
20090829 00:06:03< fabi> AI0867: Can modify_site be used for user_team_name?
20090829 00:06:28< AI0867> lemme check
20090829 00:06:39< Crab_> fabi: yes
20090829 00:06:39< AI0867> it can
20090829 00:07:02< fabi> nice, that will look much better in LoW 2 than the old hack.
20090829 00:07:13< AI0867> and if team_name is changed and user_team_name isn't, user_team_name is set to the new team_name
20090829 00:07:39< fabi> AI0867: That's superp.
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20090829 00:15:27< AI0867> fabi: now that I look at it, user_team_name can't be changed *without* also changing team_name
20090829 00:17:10< AI0867> that should probably be changed
20090829 00:19:52< CIA-62> crab * r38166 /trunk/data/ai/utils/default_config.cfg: removed unnecessary ai_algorithm from default config
20090829 00:25:22< shadowmaster> AI0867: yes, it should.
20090829 00:25:51< shadowmaster> I don't like the idea of user_team_name and team_name being so dependant from each other at a programming interface level
20090829 00:26:54< CIA-62> fendrin * r38167 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/01_The_Uprooting.cfg: LoW 01: code cleanups.
20090829 00:27:45< CIA-62> fendrin * r38168 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/03_Kalian.cfg: LoW 03: Stored Gladrid and his party for a later reapearance in scenario seven.
20090829 00:28:38< CIA-62> fendrin * r38169 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/07_Elves_last_stand.cfg: LoW 7: Code cleanups added TODO.
20090829 00:29:39< CIA-62> fendrin * r38170 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/19_Costly_Revenge.cfg: LoW 19: Updated recruit_lists.
20090829 00:30:21< CIA-62> fendrin * r38171 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg: LoW 2: Made use of the multiple team names feature.
20090829 00:30:53< CIA-62> fendrin * r38172 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/16_The_Chief_must_die.cfg: LoW 16: Added a TODO.
20090829 00:31:12< CIA-62> ai0867 * r38173 /trunk/ (changelog data/scenario-test.cfg src/game_events.cpp): [modify_side] user_team_name no longer requires that team_name also be modified
20090829 00:34:41< CIA-62> crab * r38174 /trunk/src/ai/configuration.cpp: fixed issue with ai_algorithm given directly in [side] (not in [side][ai]) being ignored. This fixes issues with non-idle idle ai on Liberty 5: Hide & Seek
20090829 00:35:00< CIA-62> crab * r38175 /trunk/src/ai/default/ai.cpp: fixed saves of games with idle_ai's
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20090829 00:41:45< CIA-62> ai0867 * r38176 /trunk/data/core/music/ (3 files): Fix svn:properties on 3 .oggS
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20090829 00:49:19< noy> wesbot: seen valkier
20090829 00:49:20< wesbot> noy: The person with the nick Valkier last spoke 7d 18h ago.  7d 16h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message:
20090829 00:49:26< noy> hmm
20090829 00:51:22< CIA-62> ai0867 * r38177 /trunk/data/core/images/ (697 files in 36 dirs): Ran set:properties on data/core/images.
20090829 00:51:23< alink>     cache_.add_define("EDITO");
20090829 00:51:25< alink>     cache_.add_define("EDITOR");
20090829 00:51:29< alink> ^typo ?
20090829 00:51:34 * fabi has another persistence problem.
20090829 00:52:05< shadowmaster> alink: obviously
20090829 00:52:12< Crab_> alink: seems like backward-compatibility hack
20090829 00:52:23< shadowmaster> though ilor_ may want to check it
20090829 00:52:37< alink> yeah we has some editor2 hack before, so I ask
20090829 00:52:44< alink> s/has/had
20090829 00:52:48< Crab_> alink: check its origin, maybe the commit comment explains something...
20090829 00:53:03< alink> blaming...
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20090829 00:54:29< alink> wesbot: log r37545
20090829 00:54:34< wesbot> ilor * r37545 : rename editor2 -&gt; editor. Old editor is long dead, long live the new editor!
20090829 00:54:37< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=37545
20090829 00:54:39< alink> i was not far :-)
20090829 00:56:07< alink> I'll fix it
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20090829 00:56:41< shadowmaster> bah, wesbot doesn't display dates, shikadibot does
20090829 00:57:23< CIA-62> alink * r38178 /trunk/src/game.cpp: Fix a typo in r37545
20090829 00:58:08< alink> ilor: i assumed a typo:  http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/src/game.cpp?rev=37545&r1=37544&r2=37545&view=diff
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20090829 00:59:53< CIA-62> fendrin * r38179 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/utils/sides.cfg: DM: Disallowed the recruitment of lvl2 dwarves as well.
20090829 01:00:32< CIA-62> fendrin * r38180 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/22_face_of_the_enemy.cfg: DM 22: Switched from Default time schedule to underground.
20090829 01:02:40< CIA-62> fendrin * r38181 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/15_save_the_king.cfg: DM 15: Added Garard's Death to the lose conditions.
20090829 01:03:10< shadowmaster> ahhh, reminds me of IftU when it was 0.x!
20090829 01:03:30< CIA-62> fendrin * r38182 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/16_dark_sky_over_weldyn.cfg: DM 16: Added a TODO.o
20090829 01:04:55< CIA-62> fendrin * r38183 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/21_clash_at_the_manor.cfg: DM 21: Added victory_when_enemies_defeated=false.
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20090829 01:07:33< alink> Ok, so it's really look like a RAM problem.
20090829 01:07:57< shadowmaster> alink: what, the DM bugs? :P
20090829 01:08:08< alink> which is annoying because 512MB seems to causes a bit of swapping to build wesnoth
20090829 01:08:29< shadowmaster> how much RAM d you have?
20090829 01:08:30< alink> no my system froze
20090829 01:08:55< alink> i have 1024 but the second 512 seems unreliable
20090829 01:09:22< shadowmaster> I have 1.7 GB and there's *lots* of swapping for debug builds
20090829 01:09:34< shadowmaster> also for -O3 builds with -j 2 or more
20090829 01:10:30< alink> ~700MB or so seems enough here but I think i have no debug symbol 
20090829 01:11:11< shadowmaster> linking the debug build takes 10 minutes of HDD activity here :/
20090829 01:11:22< shadowmaster> wesnoth has grown too large.
20090829 01:11:57< alink> seems a lot to me, but i just recently started to build again
20090829 01:13:57< alink> grrr i hate these rare random crash (>1/day), very hard to find the cause
20090829 01:14:04< shadowmaster> I'd switch to XFCE if it didn't uninstall lots of KDE packages :/
20090829 01:14:16< alink> i means less than 1/day
20090829 01:14:44< alink> KDE seems light here
20090829 01:14:50< alink> (KDE 3.5)
20090829 01:15:30< shadowmaster> kded consumes around 307 MB (virtual memory size), 3.5.10 
20090829 01:16:14< alink> i suppose it depend what you use
20090829 01:16:45< shadowmaster> although running apache, atheme, kvirc, virtualbox, konqueror, kate, firefox and dozens of bash sessions most of the time doesn't hepl either :/
20090829 01:17:15< alink> here esp. long big session of firefox
20090829 01:17:44< alink> good thing to have the restart button on firefox
20090829 01:18:08< shadowmaster> alink: have you run any memory testing program?
20090829 01:18:40< alink> not yet, but now i will probably do
20090829 01:19:17< shadowmaster> there's this badram patch for linux that may help to avoid using broken RAM locations if you can determine those IIRC
20090829 01:19:29< shadowmaster> I read about it too long ago, can't remember the specifics
20090829 01:19:38< alink> playing with the DIMM seems to help, but not sure yet if it's one DIMM or one slot
20090829 01:21:57< alink> i also need to try tweaking the bios
20090829 01:22:20< alink> google "badram patch" gave 19000 results
20090829 01:22:59< Ivanovic> alink: does increasing ram vcore by 0.1 or 0.2V maybe help?
20090829 01:23:14< Ivanovic> sometimes this can stabilize ram a little
20090829 01:23:31< alink> Ivanovic: didn't tried anything yet, but i note your suggestion, thanks
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20090829 01:26:42< alink> back to wesnoth topic: playing with these new waypoints is funny but i see now a lot of possibly needed UI polishing not obvious at first :-/
20090829 01:27:52< alink> example: if you don't use the shortest path, some hexes in the the non-black-stripes area are now sometimes not reachable in one turn
20090829 01:28:14< fabi> shadowmaster: Do you agree that https://gna.org/bugs/?12962 can be marked as fixed?
20090829 01:28:51< shadowmaster> if the testcase still fails then no.
20090829 01:40:22< CIA-62> ai0867 * r38184 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Ran set:properties on data/campaigns.
20090829 01:41:39< CIA-62> ai0867 * r38185 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/03_Kalian.cfg: s/wesnoth\.png/wesnoth-icon.png
20090829 01:44:38< AI0867> fabi: I love the changes to LoW3
20090829 01:48:37< fabi> AI0867: Have you played it?
20090829 01:49:40< CIA-62> alink * r38186 /trunk/src/ (6 files): 
20090829 01:49:40< CIA-62> Add basic support to define waypoints via a hotkey "Add waypoint"
20090829 01:49:40< CIA-62> Seems to work fine, but no visual indication yet (besides the bended path)
20090829 01:49:40< CIA-62> Don't affect the normal pathfinding interface, so this WIP is safe.
20090829 01:51:11< CIA-62> alink * r38187 /trunk/data/core/hotkeys.cfg: Add a default hotkey 'w' for the new "Add waypoint" feature.
20090829 01:54:47< alink> mmh another thing with this feature, a silly MP player can move some of his units using weird paths (for suspense effect)
20090829 01:55:27< shadowmaster> silly MP players can spam units.
20090829 01:55:53< alink> yeah, and they could do such moves before so...
20090829 01:56:02< shadowmaster> exactly.
20090829 01:57:53< Soliton> what suspense effect?
20090829 01:58:33< alink> it's just that it looks different when the unit don't stop before going backward. A bit funny I think, but maybe it's just me who like playing with this when testing it
20090829 01:59:18< alink> Soliton: like replacing all 1-hex move by a loop looking like a false retreat
20090829 01:59:36< alink> but i am not really serious
20090829 02:00:06< Soliton> good. :-P
20090829 02:01:32< AI0867> fabi: am now
20090829 02:01:43< AI0867> too bad you lose control of the units at turn 8
20090829 02:05:53< fabi> AI0867: Would you prefer the player to controll both sides?
20090829 02:07:38< shadowmaster> um, did the SVN repository server go down, or my connection is just borken?
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20090829 02:10:18< shadowmaster> X.org is also a huge memory sink on its own (hint)
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20090829 02:11:04< alink> shadowmaster: i suspect that firefox triggers that too
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20090829 02:11:31< shadowmaster> the other problem with X.org is that you cannot see any kernel messages while it is running
20090829 02:12:55< shadowmaster> I mean, kernel messages after any¶r
20090829 02:13:16< shadowmaster> ... kernel messages after some blocking event.
20090829 02:15:25< AI0867> fabi: it's somewhat annoying to see the AI send the units that you worked so hard to save off to get themselves killed
20090829 02:23:18< fabi> AI0867: Right, I hope to tune it enough to save some of them.
20090829 02:24:06< AI0867> but the atmosphere is great
20090829 02:24:42< AI0867> everything is shrouded and fogged except for the castle, no reachable villages and then you're surrounded by assassins
20090829 02:24:51< AI0867> after beating those off, the real attack begins
20090829 02:28:14< AI0867> and when you've finally beaten THEM off, the actual battle starts
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20090829 02:31:48< fabi> AI0867: Most of this is crab's work.
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20090829 02:38:10< shadowmaster> I'm still unable to fetch from svn it seems
20090829 02:38:46< shadowmaster> although if Espreon is pointing out that a music file was committed...
20090829 02:39:17< shadowmaster> fabi: so West authorized you?
20090829 02:40:29< fabi> shadowmaster: No.
20090829 02:40:51< fabi> shadowmaster: I didn't ask him.
20090829 02:41:13< shadowmaster> okay, who is the music director? :|
20090829 02:41:17< shadowmaster> and who is the author?
20090829 02:42:10< shadowmaster> musicians are not very different to artists (and coders anyway) in that they don't want unfinished work to be included in mainline. 
20090829 02:42:33< fabi> West considerd it finished and there is no hint in the thread that he didn't want it to be used in mainline. 
20090829 02:42:58< shadowmaster> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=324162#p324162
20090829 02:43:18< shadowmaster> "It still needs a few tweaks though"
20090829 02:44:19< shadowmaster> his latter post still suggests he may have wanted to do a few additional tweaks
20090829 02:45:17< fabi> shadowmaster: right, I missed that.
20090829 02:45:37< fabi> shadowmaster: Will PM him at once.
20090829 02:45:53< Espreon> Esto no me gusta...
20090829 02:45:58< Espreon> Oh wellz...
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20090829 02:53:57< fabi> shadowmaster: Done.
20090829 02:55:11< shadowmaster> ah, found a mod that should help against human-assisted spambots
20090829 02:55:23< shadowmaster> at least as long as they still used an automated process for posting
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20090829 03:12:26< shadowmaster> fabi: also, update the changelog as soon as you get West's confirmation
20090829 03:12:57< fabi> shadowmaster: Right
20090829 03:13:27< shadowmaster> and the default playlist in data/core/macros/somefile.cfg
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20090829 03:14:04< shadowmaster> it has two parts; a bunch of [music] tags in the macro's "root level" and a bunch of [music] tags i a [event], both in the same macro
20090829 03:14:19< shadowmaster> both should match (it's not too hard to figure out anyway)
20090829 03:14:40< fabi> shadowmaster: I wouldn't touch it. The new song doesn't match the default playlist. It's somewhat special.
20090829 03:15:07< shadowmaster> okay, then.
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20090829 03:25:04< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r38188 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: 
20090829 03:25:04< CIA-62> Disable GUI2 unit create dialog for release so it doesn't interfer with
20090829 03:25:04< CIA-62> other --new-widgets testing with its memory corruption
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20090829 04:56:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.4 planned for Sunday | 83 bugs, 241 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090829 07:13:13< norbert_> hi all, I noticed that some nicks in the on-line lobby are blueish; can anyone tell me what that color means?
20090829 07:13:31< norbert_> (I entered a game with some of those people in it and they have no idea themselves)
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20090829 07:33:38< norbert_> anyone?
20090829 07:42:31< DDR> No clue, myself.
20090829 07:42:42< DDR> Sorry...
20090829 07:43:29< DDR> Wait, got it.
20090829 07:43:45< DDR> The blue names are, for me, the players in the selected game.
20090829 07:45:24< DDR> That help, norbert_?
20090829 07:45:57< norbert_> oh yeah, that's it; thanks
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20090829 07:46:59< DDR> :)
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20090829 07:55:32< corn> mordante: sorry, I was away the last two days. I haven't done much work on it because recompiling is very slow for me on my current machine (even with gold). I'll have my usual workstation on monday and then I can resume working on it properly
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20090829 09:45:53< boucman> morning all
20090829 09:50:27< Espreon> Good morning.
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20090829 10:10:04< mordante> servus
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20090829 10:20:44< Ivanovic> moin
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20090829 11:15:58< sauron> hi
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20090829 11:16:17< sauron> Is any of forum admins arounr?
20090829 11:16:24< sauron> *around
20090829 11:19:33< mordante> shadowmaster, still think it's a silly idea to not allow more as three levels, but I don't post too often so just work around it when needed
20090829 11:19:49< mordante> shadowmaster, and a good reason to keep disliking forums :-P
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20090829 11:46:47< Ivanovic> sauron: solving problems is faster done if you just post your question/request
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20090829 11:54:33< sauron> I already posted to Yogi, so I am not sure I should bother 2 admins with same problem ...
20090829 11:55:46< sauron> the problem was - poll got detatched from thread on editing head post ... strange
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20090829 12:10:42< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38189 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-l/de.po): 
20090829 12:10:42< CIA-62> updated German translation
20090829 12:10:42< CIA-62> add linewraps in *changelog to get down to a max of 80chars per line
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20090829 12:40:48< CIA-62> fendrin * r38191 /trunk/changelog: Updated the changelog with new music and sound effects.
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20090829 12:46:22< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38190 /trunk/po/ (455 files in 23 dirs): 
20090829 12:46:22< CIA-62> pot-update
20090829 12:46:22< CIA-62> regenerated doc files (no changes)
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20090829 13:17:32< sauron> I must ask for help here ... The poll attached to thread http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14794 got unattached on editing the 1st post in the thread. If any of forum admins could help me with the problem - I would be grateful.
20090829 13:19:31< CIA-62> fendrin * r38192 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/low-macros.cfg: LoW: Macro for filtering loyal units.
20090829 13:21:10< CIA-62> fendrin * r38193 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg: LoW 2: Fixed the spelling of a macro.
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20090829 13:23:34< stikonas> it seems that gna svn server is again experiencing some problems
20090829 13:23:53< stikonas> at least the anonymous one
20090829 13:24:05< Ivanovic> you mean the one via http
20090829 13:24:12< Ivanovic> you can use svn anonymus, too
20090829 13:24:22< Ivanovic> just omit the +ssh part and the username
20090829 13:27:01< CIA-62> fendrin * r38194 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/deaths.cfg: LoW: Used the new filter loyals macro.
20090829 13:27:48< CIA-62> fendrin * r38195 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/characters.cfg: LoW: Made use of translatable team names.
20090829 13:29:39< CIA-62> fendrin * r38196 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/13_Epilogue.cfg: UtBS: Wired in West's "Journey's End".
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20090829 13:34:17< CIA-62> fendrin * r38197 /trunk/players_changelog: Synced the players_changelog.
20090829 13:34:55< CIA-62> fendrin * r38198 /trunk/changelog: Changed the spelling.
20090829 13:39:23< Ivanovic> Chusslove: yes, another (most likely the last) 1.6.x release is planned "eventually"
20090829 13:39:40< Ivanovic> but before i start planning that i want to have 1.7.4 out first
20090829 13:40:16< Chusslove> Ivanovic: Great, thanks.
20090829 13:41:35< Ivanovic> (so it might be the first sunday in september or something like this)
20090829 13:42:09< Ivanovic> corn: what is the status of getting stats.wesnoth.org online on the main rig again?
20090829 13:42:13< Ivanovic> is it done already?
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20090829 13:47:23< Ivanovic> corn, crab_, deekay, euschn, ilor_: uhm, whom of you has already written some short wrap up of your gsoc results?
20090829 13:47:33< Ivanovic> i know that crab_ created one and sent it to me via pm
20090829 13:51:12< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38199 /trunk/ (50 files in 25 dirs): updated Serbian translation
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20090829 15:37:28< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r38200 /trunk/data/core/units/drakes/Fire.cfg: Weapon name change
20090829 15:45:56< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r38201 /trunk/ (41 files in 3 dirs): New Inferno Drake base frames and animations, remove old frames. Update changelogs.
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20090829 16:43:51< thespaceinvader> boucman: ping
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20090829 18:36:51< Sapient> hi
20090829 18:37:16< Sapient> What version of boost is needed for building trunk?
20090829 18:37:45< Crab_> Sapient: 1.35
20090829 18:38:35< Sapient> ok, goodl I've already got that
20090829 18:38:50 * Sapient checks
20090829 18:40:56< CIA-62> alink * r38202 /trunk/changelog: update changelog
20090829 18:45:12< Sapient> ok, I hope to get a few changes in before 1.7.4
20090829 18:46:43< Sapient> unfortunately, it looks like I'm using boost 1_34_1
20090829 18:47:20-!- Smar [i=smar@freenet/translator/finnish/Smar] has quit ["Mata ne... I hope."]
20090829 18:48:13< Crab_> Sapient: I *think* that you *might* be able to compile with 1.34, if you use an old version of src/foreach.hpp . but's it's better to upgrade.
20090829 18:48:51< Sapient> why the switch?
20090829 18:49:34< Sapient> I figure if building wesnoth takes 9 hours on this PC, then building boost will probably put me past the deadline
20090829 18:49:53< Sapient> but... I'll go ahead and download it
20090829 18:50:20< Sapient> I may just have to make some blind changes and get someone to help me check that everything builds
20090829 18:50:40< Sapient> as much as I hate doing that
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20090829 18:55:01< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r38203 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Updates to Swordsman ans Spearman portraits. Update changelogs.
20090829 18:56:16< Sapient> I guess I might as well download boost 1.40 now that I'm upgrading it
20090829 18:59:06< AI0867> the only part that needs 1.35 is libboost-regex. Not sure if that helps you though
20090829 19:02:14< Sapient> hmm
20090829 19:02:56< loonycyborg> Only client part requires 1.35
20090829 19:03:08< loonycyborg> You could build the server with 1.34
20090829 19:05:47< Sapient> thanks... I'll be working on the client part
20090829 19:06:21< loonycyborg> Then you *really* need to upgrade to 1.35 :P
20090829 19:09:03< Sapient> ok :)
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20090829 19:26:07< CIA-62> alink * r38204 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): 
20090829 19:26:07< CIA-62> Regroup similar utility fonctions in pathutils.?pp where they clearly belong.
20090829 19:26:07< CIA-62> Remove or simplify some include of pathfind.hpp
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20090829 19:40:00< Sapient> ok, I'm building boost. my changes may have to wait for next release then
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20090829 20:15:36< n3penthe> could someone help me out with making a custom era
20090829 20:20:40< shadowmaster> n3penthe: lots of good information are available at http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Create
20090829 20:20:58< shadowmaster> we cannot help you a lot here since this is the mainline development channel.
20090829 20:21:10< shadowmaster> #wesnoth would be better, or perhaps the forums.
20090829 20:24:55< n3penthe> kk thx
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20090829 20:29:29< zookeeper> n3penthe, my suggestion: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26555&p=375010
20090829 20:30:09< zookeeper> that's pretty much what i'd tell every newbie to do
20090829 20:34:20< n3penthe> ok :P
20090829 20:35:00< n3penthe> WWelll I think the create post had everything I needed to know so I won bother with that
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20090829 20:46:53< CIA-62> mordante * r38205 /trunk/src/ (60 files in 12 dirs): Strip trailing whitespace.
20090829 20:47:23< mordante> at least I can compile Wesnoth again, now to restore the rest of my settings ;-)
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20090829 21:20:23< corn> Ivanovic: it is mostly done but stats collection is not enabled or working yet - I should have it done today or tomorrow
20090829 21:20:38< Ivanovic> corn: would be really great
20090829 21:20:52< Ivanovic> corn: have you already written up some short "gsoc project summary"?
20090829 21:21:23< Ivanovic> so far i got a really great summary from Crab_
20090829 21:21:44< corn> no, I didn't know we had to write one aside from the stuff on the wiki, but I can PM you one now :)
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20090829 21:21:59< Ivanovic> so that you got an example, here is what Crab_ wrote:
20090829 21:22:01< Ivanovic> The project was to reorganize Wesnoth AI and to develop a toolset that will allow different people (C++ coders, scenario editors) collaborate more efficiently on improving AI. During the GSoC, AI codebase was reorganized and was made modular, new AI configuration syntax was developed. Numerous AI-related bugs were fixed (and, of course, some new bugs were added, but those will be fixed, too).
20090829 21:22:02< Ivanovic> Already, tools that were developed during the project are being used to make Legend Of Wesmere Campaign AI more interesting and more fun to play with.
20090829 21:23:32< Ivanovic> corn: and in general you don't have to write one, i would just like to post some short followup regarding what was done in soc so that the users got an idea, too
20090829 21:24:15< corn> ok, I will write it
20090829 21:24:23< Ivanovic> thanks
20090829 21:26:45< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: So is it possible for people to write their own AIs for their own purposes now?
20090829 21:27:01< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: it always was in C++
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20090829 21:27:31< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: Yes, but directly editing the source for add-on use is messy.
20090829 21:27:38< Ivanovic> :)
20090829 21:27:47< Crab_> Aethaeryn: nowadays, it is possible to write only a 'small part' of ai / compose ai from parts.
20090829 21:27:50< Ivanovic> have a look at the commits from the last week at LoW
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20090829 21:28:03< Ivanovic> there you will find some examples about what is possible
20090829 21:28:23< Aethaeryn> Okay.
20090829 21:28:39< Aethaeryn> I'm writing my own set of campaigns, but I need to finish the art part first. I will look into it when I get started, though.
20090829 21:28:50< Aethaeryn> Now I finally have a reason to develop on 1.7 :)
20090829 21:28:58< Ivanovic> :)
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20090829 21:29:50< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for example, it's possible to make the ai do only some of the things ai generally does. E.g. "move towards enemy leader, and fight with enemy units" (without going for villages/retreating/etc)
20090829 21:30:55< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Is an AI escort possible, yet? I can see potential with that... Ambushing an enemy leader while he is in transit.
20090829 21:31:06< Crab_> Aethaeryn: also, it is possible to modify the ai (not only ai parameters, but even AI turn sequence) 'on the fly', from wml events
20090829 21:32:19< Aethaeryn> So, for this hypothetical scenario you'd need (1) a leader who goes from point a to point b after turn 5, ignoring danger unless it's in his way and (2) A large group that travels surrounding the leader, and attacks anything they "directly" see - if the threat is eliminated, they go back to the leader.
20090829 21:33:40< Aethaeryn> Would that be codeable yet? That would actually make HttT, scn. 1, playable by AI :P
20090829 21:33:46< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it is possible, but making it simple to code is on my todo list (nowadays I use the tools I developed during the GSoC to create specific AI behaviors)
20090829 21:34:31< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and regarding ' That would actually make HttT, scn. 1, playable by AI' - hehe, making the ai able to complete HttT (with some little hints) is a long-term goal :)
20090829 21:34:37< Aethaeryn> There are so many get-to-the-signpost missions, I'd like to see a stop-him-from-getting-to-the-signpost mission, especially if it's in forest, and you have rangers and woses, thus being able to stop his movement.
20090829 21:35:19< Aethaeryn> But "escort unit" and "leader move to goal" are probably two things any good game AI needs.
20090829 21:35:28< Aethaeryn> leader/unit move to goal. I could see it being a group instead.
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20090829 21:36:05< Aethaeryn> For instance, an army where there is a MoL leader and 3 or 4 other white mages going to a pilgrimage, with the escort role filled by knights/paladins.
20090829 21:36:55< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I can try, but i need a sample scenario in which I'll test.
20090829 21:37:14< Aethaeryn> You could always test it on HttT scenario 1
20090829 21:37:23< Aethaeryn> Where it would recruit on turn 1, and use those recruits to escort.
20090829 21:37:46< Aethaeryn> I could also make a scenario where you're Undead and must knock out a moving MoL leader, just for demo purposes.
20090829 21:38:01< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I'll try it on HttT 1 first
20090829 21:38:37< Aethaeryn> Basically, goal = signpost (north/west bias in AI anyway ;)), and you only take villages in your path.
20090829 21:39:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: not just that, there's some 'must-not-die' units
20090829 21:39:31< Aethaeryn> Escorter needs (1) escorted must-not-die units in sight, and covered, and (2) to fight only those within its line-of-sight, to not get too off the path.
20090829 21:39:44< Aethaeryn> if escorted must-not-die units gets out of its sight, it has to retreat back.
20090829 21:40:02< Aethaeryn> Perhaps something like that.
20090829 21:40:03< Crab_> Aethaeryn: the problem is 'what to do if path is blocked?'
20090829 21:40:22< Aethaeryn> If path is blocked, attack the blocker?
20090829 21:40:34< Aethaeryn> If it doesn't harm yourself too badly.
20090829 21:40:45< Aethaeryn> i.e. Delfador could clear the path, maybe not Konrad himself.
20090829 21:40:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: but attacking the blockers might leave the protected units in danger
20090829 21:41:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: i.e. slow-moving caravan escorted by paladins
20090829 21:41:39< Aethaeryn> Well, a hack-ish solution would be to have some of the units function a tighter role, which is travel with the must-not-die-units and stay close to them
20090829 21:42:09< Aethaeryn> And have the others do the role of attack-all-in-sight as long as must-not-die unit is in sight.
20090829 21:42:26< corn> Crab_: you don't need to answer these difficult questions, you can just code everything so that behavior is emergent
20090829 21:42:47< Aethaeryn> So it'd fight a troll that could be a potential threat, as long as that troll is near enough to the leader.
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20090829 21:43:15< corn> I coded an AI for an AI competition called battlecode earlier in the year based on the boids model, and it wasn't completely terrible
20090829 21:43:40< Aethaeryn> I'd say three roles then: mustn't die, moves along to goal; tight escort, prevents leader/other from dying; loose escort, attacks all in sight, preferring those in path.
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20090829 21:44:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I'll try
20090829 21:44:33< Aethaeryn> It has some obvious weaknesses, but a human opponent *should* be able to exploit these weaknesses to get to the caravan in this instance.
20090829 21:44:37< Crab_> Aethaeryn: as soon as I finish some LoW 3 things, that is
20090829 21:45:25< Aethaeryn> Ideally, you should only give it one coordinate: the ultimate goal, and it should move along until it hits something, and it fights that obstruction with all of its might.
20090829 21:45:34< Aethaeryn> (the other variable would be what turn to set out at)
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20090829 21:49:10< Crab_> Aethaeryn:  something like [goal] name=escort  [protect] SUF [/protect] [destination] SLF [/destination] turn=5-FOREVER [/goal]
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20090829 21:51:41< Crab_> corn: there is a problem with 'make intelligent behavior emerge' approach - it scales poorly.
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20090829 21:52:16< Crab_> corn: current ai_default targeting phase does it that way 'for each target, find best unit to handle this target, dispatch, maybe add more targets, repeat'
20090829 21:52:21< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Yes. Then, for instance, if it's going to a keep, you could switch AI behavior once it reaches there.
20090829 21:52:47< Aethaeryn> I see a lot of potential with that in campaigns: instead of an AI leader that just pops up turn 15 to make it harder, you have a limited time window to stop him from recruiting!
20090829 21:52:48< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, and 'switching behavior' is already possible
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20090829 21:52:58< Aethaeryn> Perfect :)
20090829 21:53:49< fendrin> Crab_: AI0867 played low3 and was excited about your work.
20090829 21:53:49< Crab_> Aethaeryn: ' you have a limited time window to stop him from recruiting!' - already possible (it's possible to override the 'recruitment' part of the default ai with 'do nothing' phase, for turns 1-14 )
20090829 21:54:07< Crab_> fendrin: yes, I was happy when I read it in the logs :)
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20090829 21:55:27< fendrin> Crab_: we should introduce different musicplaylists for the parts of the scenario and select something dark and dramatic for the first one.
20090829 21:56:12< Crab_> fendrin: yes, that'll be good :)
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20090829 21:57:56< Crab_> fendrin: also, I want that orcish slayer to retreat and leave the map (to return in later scenario, e.g. in LoW 7), unless elves kill him first.
20090829 21:58:46< fendrin> Crab_: And what role shall he play later on?
20090829 21:58:56< Crab_> fendrin: 'annoy the player'
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20090829 21:59:12< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Retreat via this escort-type thing?
20090829 21:59:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: no, probably via something more simple, like formula:   if(my_leader!=null,if(size(my_units)<4,move(my_leader.loc,next_hop(my_leader.loc,loc(17,8))),move(my_leader.loc,my_leader.loc)),null)
20090829 22:00:44< Crab_> e.g. 'if >=4 own units left, stay still, else retreat'
20090829 22:00:49< shadowmaster> as usual, the changelog is a mess
20090829 22:01:13< Crab_> Aethaeryn: he stands behind the enemy lines, so the battle line protects him somewhat
20090829 22:02:38< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r38206 /trunk/changelog: 
20090829 22:02:38< CIA-62> Made "Miscellaneous and bugfixes" the last section of the changelog as
20090829 22:02:38< CIA-62> usual, restored alphabetic order amongst other sections.
20090829 22:04:09< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r38207 /trunk/players_changelog: Remove stray tabstops.
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20090829 22:08:10< fendrin> Crab_: Do you have some ideas for scenario 7 ?
20090829 22:09:38< Crab_> fendrin: mostly, the ally behavior should be made more defensive - to make them survive for as long as possible
20090829 22:10:53< fendrin> Crab_: That's also true for galdrid in scenario 3. He shouldn't kill all units the player tried to preserve.
20090829 22:11:00< Crab_> yes
20090829 22:11:17< Crab_> fendrin: also, it makes sense for 'south-west' elf leader to fallback to Ka'lian.
20090829 22:12:03< fendrin> Crab_: The player can use the ai controller in that scenario.
20090829 22:12:39< Crab_> fendrin: yes, so, the ally behavior can be fixed by making the ai controller work as intended
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20090829 22:14:52< Crab_> fendrin: but, barring that, that scenario is a meatgrinder - too much units...
20090829 22:14:57< Crab_> fendrin: for added interest...
20090829 22:15:06< Crab_> fendrin: is it possible for the orcs to burn wesmere ?
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20090829 22:17:32< fendrin> Crab_: We have no fire animation for a forest burn.
20090829 22:17:43< Crab_> fendrin: sadly (
20090829 22:17:47< Sapient> I think there is a UMC that has a burning forest scenario and uses WML sound sources for that as well
20090829 22:18:09< Sapient> never played it myself, but someone was describing it on the forums
20090829 22:18:39< Crab_> fendrin: I was thinking about adding an additional 'mini-game' to that scenario, to make it more interesting (e.g. not just big combat on favourable terrain)
20090829 22:20:01< fendrin> Sapient: Could that be "Unrest in Elfland"?
20090829 22:21:46< Sapient> possibly
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20090829 22:22:39< fendrin> Crab_: I would like a scenario with some burning.
20090829 22:26:18< mordante> I'm off night
20090829 22:26:22< Crab_> fendrin: so, I was thinking about the following: 1) again - no kalenz, fog 2) spawn several (depending on a difficulty level) goblin pillagers 3) make player control the elven 'forest guard' of sorts.
20090829 22:26:26< Crab_>  4) make that pillagers burn forest near them on each turn, and make them run all over the map   5) make the player chase them (using zoc/ambush/etc)
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20090829 22:26:53< Crab_> so, the player's actions in this 'mini-game' will determine the amount of forest on map.
20090829 22:27:14< Crab_> and will also give him a few extra L2 units
20090829 22:27:48< Crab_> what do you think about this ?
20090829 22:28:40< zookeeper> i often thought about a burning forest scenario where you also have to put out the fires, for example by forming lines of units from water to extinquish fire on adjacent hexes or something like that
20090829 22:29:04< fendrin> Crab_: Let's try it.
20090829 22:29:28< Crab_> fendrin: also (unrelated) - does Galtrid get an early finish bonus in LoW 2 ?
20090829 22:30:37< Crab_> s/2/3
20090829 22:31:35< fendrin> No, I have no idea how I could do that.
20090829 22:32:22< Crab_> fendrin: calculate the bonus by hand and store it in a var, then assign bonus gold to Galtrid in LoW 7
20090829 22:32:47< Crab_> fendrin: or file a FR of sorts...
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20090829 22:40:19< ilor> alink_: yeah that was a typo alright, thanks
20090829 22:41:04< ilor> Ivanovic: uh, top of the wiki page for my gsoc project has a overview of what it was
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20090829 22:49:59< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20090829 22:50:25< Ivanovic> i guess that the new lobby is not stable enough yet to be active by default in tomorrows 1.7.4?
20090829 22:50:26< Ivanovic> ;)
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20090829 22:56:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.4 planned for Sunday | 81 bugs, 241 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090829 23:32:57< grzywacz> Ivanovic, have you tried it? ;-p
20090829 23:32:59< Crab_> fendrin: question: what would be a 'good enough' bonus for player in LoW 3 for killing that L2 slayer ?
20090829 23:35:55< Ivanovic> grzywacz: no
20090829 23:36:01< grzywacz> Ivanovic, 8)
20090829 23:36:29< Ivanovic> grzywacz: this bad?
20090829 23:36:50< grzywacz> Ivanovic, it needs polish. :-)
20090829 23:37:08< Ivanovic> uhm, ask the polish translation team for some more polish strings
20090829 23:37:10< Ivanovic> ;)
20090829 23:37:17< grzywacz> pft :P
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20090829 23:48:55< fendrin> Crab_: hmmm
20090829 23:49:33< Crab_> that orc leader oversees an attempt to test the defenses of Ka'lian. The orcs are somewhat wary of the fog, elven trickery, and forest, and do not want to commit their entire army from the start.
20090829 23:49:42< Crab_>  So, if the slayer dies (he's not supposed to die, as he is not taking part in the battle, but oversees it from a distance, it means that these orcs should should not attempt further attacks on Ka'lian, but, instead, hold position wait for their army to arrive.
20090829 23:49:59< Crab_> And, in addition, some good bonus to player will be nice...
20090829 23:50:57< Crab_> on hard, it's quite hard to kill that slayer (I'm mostly busy with defense, and, the slayer retreats to his boss, when things start to get hot)
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 30 00:00:21 2009