--- Log opened Fri Sep 11 00:00:09 2009
20090911 00:10:44-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 00:12:15-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 00:27:05-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 00:49:08-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 00:49:26< alink> Zaaap :-)
20090911 00:53:48< Sapient> ~_~
20090911 00:57:00-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 01:04:34< CIA-62> espreon * r38591 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Added the Spanish overlay for the main map.
20090911 01:10:35< CIA-62> espreon * r38592 /trunk/data/core/images/ (11 files in 6 dirs): Ran set-properties on the localized images.
20090911 01:14:31-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009073022]"]
20090911 01:20:47< Sapient> silene: +   * Modified Lua handling of action handlers and WML objects.
20090911 01:21:23< Sapient> "modified" isn't very descriptive there...
20090911 01:22:00< Sapient> I'm looking through the changelogs and it looks like mostly efficiency improvements, but I may be missing something
20090911 01:24:02< Sapient> I can't say I understand all the changes because lines such as lua_pcall(L, 2, 0, -4) are Greek to me
20090911 01:33:31-!- busfahrer` [n=busfahre@95.112.236.99] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 01:37:52 * loonycyborg shakes fist at lua/C api for using the stack mechanism to pass parameters like in assembly language
20090911 01:41:34< CIA-62> espreon * r38593 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Added myself to the Spanish translation credits; removed some trailing whitespace.
20090911 01:42:31-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
20090911 01:43:19< Sapient> If we extend the WML language, for example by making WML variables such as units aware of their type, I hope that won't create issues for lua maintenance
20090911 01:44:37< Sapient> Improving the core WML language is far more important to me than enabling Lua programmers to extend it
20090911 01:45:49< Sapient> nifty though it may be ;)
20090911 02:00:38-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit ["Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"]
20090911 02:01:13-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 02:14:43-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090911 02:17:05-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@131.181.100.205] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090911 02:18:49-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-195-108-200.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"]
20090911 02:20:58-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090911 03:11:27< alink> I have code for "show attack dialog before the move when doing a move+attack action" 
20090911 03:12:00< alink> seems to work fine, just need to polish and check special cases
20090911 03:12:25< alink> but, I wonder, should we keep the old behavior as an option ? 
20090911 03:13:53< alink> the new one is clearly more handy, but seems a bit disturbing at first (even if probably only for old players)
20090911 03:17:34-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@131.181.100.205] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 03:18:46< alink> mmh, in fact, this is only the first impression, after few more tries, it already feel more natural
20090911 03:19:44< alink> and *really* handy, esp. with the "right-click outside dialog to cancel"
20090911 03:22:04< alink> if the target unit is not under the dialog, just right-click after the left-click, close the dialog without even needing a mouse move
20090911 03:22:47-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@brsg-d9beec37.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090911 03:23:31< alink> well, that was true before, but without the unit's move (and possible scrolling) that dialog show/hide feel very snappy 
20090911 03:24:07-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090911 03:24:32< alink> so, i think i will forget the option for now
20090911 03:27:24-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@brsg-d9bee35e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 03:30:47< fendrin> alink: Can you release a patch? I can't see it in my mind from your description.
20090911 03:33:19-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 03:36:38< alink> in all in its WiP-ness (but seems to work fine) http://wesnoth.codepad.org/MSB6ZgFr
20090911 03:38:38< alink> didn't tested yet the "spotted enemy in fog during move, press t to continue" and not sure yet how to handle it (for code and UI)
20090911 03:40:58-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit ["WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!"]
20090911 03:41:40< alink> tested, currently resume the move but cancel the attack, I suppose that we still want the same attack if we press continue, I will fix that
20090911 03:45:35< alink> mmh I knew that this case will be annoying
20090911 03:48:06< alink> OTOH the old behavior was even worse in these cases (no warning about spotted units, always proceed the attack)
20090911 03:50:06< alink> grbmlm, to be fully safe i must forget the initial attack choice. If the unit stop after spotting units, something may have changed with the weapons etc..
20090911 03:53:10< alink> or maybe i can move the old move+attack way, without clearing shroud before the attack. That solve the problem but is not very nice.
20090911 03:56:14< alink> or keep both behaviors and use the "delay shroud update" to choose which one use
20090911 04:04:51-!- Netsplit bartol.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Amu_
20090911 04:05:16-!- Amu [n=smar@88.113.60.192] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 04:05:48< alink> yes "delay shroud update" modulate well this, but still not perfect (both ways have their flaws)
20090911 04:08:27< alink> An idea lowering the problem: if our move was interrupted+resumed, forget the first weapon choice but directly re-open the attack dialog to allow you to check/change/cancel weapon choice
20090911 04:09:27< alink> I think i can even pre-selecting the first choice, but not sure if it's not better to pre-select best as we usually do
20090911 04:10:52 * alink probably need a break and let these popping ideas mature a little, afk
20090911 04:17:11-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@adsl-76-202-22-1.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 04:42:17-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit ["On the road again"]
20090911 05:16:26-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 05:40:17-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 06:19:02-!- ancestral [n=ancestra@97-116-118-217.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 06:19:39-!- ancestral [n=ancestra@97-116-118-217.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20090911 06:24:25-!- ancestral [n=ancestra@97-116-118-217.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 06:32:05-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 07:14:11-!- YogiHH [n=chatzill@c219087.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 07:14:24< YogiHH> hello
20090911 07:14:37< YogiHH> wesbot: seen sapient
20090911 07:14:37< wesbot> YogiHH: The person with the nick Sapient last spoke 5h 28m ago.  4h 53m ago person left:
20090911 07:15:22-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit []
20090911 07:20:38< CIA-62> zookeeper * r38594 /trunk/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/scenarios/6_Towards_the_Caves.cfg: Fixed a bug reported on the forums.
20090911 07:46:12-!- Sirp [n=user@wesnoth/developer/dave] has quit ["leaving"]
20090911 08:06:13< silene> Sapient: it means that, until now, action handlers defined in lua were receiving wml data as config-style objects (that is, pre-parsed); now they receive them as vconfig-style objects (that is, parsed on the fly)
20090911 08:07:21< silene> sure, the changelog is sparse, but that's not what people should read to get a complete explanation of things, the documentation is there for this precise purpose
20090911 08:57:38-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 09:01:13-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 09:18:28-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090911 09:23:26-!- vigg [i=5d7d0ccf@gateway/web/freenode/x-eapzkkppzucczwve] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 09:31:40-!- DDR [n=chatzill@66.183.125.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 09:40:42-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090911 09:42:49< Ivanovic> moin
20090911 09:45:46-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 09:48:47-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090911 09:59:23-!- ancestral [n=ancestra@97-116-118-217.mpls.qwest.net] has quit ["And that’s the end of THAT chapter."]
20090911 10:08:41-!- giusef [n=giusef@unaffiliated/giusef] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 10:14:04-!- giusef [n=giusef@unaffiliated/giusef] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 10:22:10-!- blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 10:22:35< Ivanovic> zookeeper: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27046&start=0
20090911 10:24:57-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.139.133] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 10:25:46-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.139.133] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 10:26:33< zookeeper> Ivanovic, right, i can fix that today..
20090911 10:26:58< Ivanovic> great
20090911 10:31:07-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 10:45:54-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@adsl-76-202-22-1.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 11:09:14-!- lobby [n=wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 11:09:14-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 92 bugs, 243 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090911 11:09:14-!- Topic set by Ivanovic [] [Thu Sep 10 13:28:16 2009]
20090911 11:09:14[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20090911 11:09:14[ AI0867      ] [ Chusslove] [ esr      ] [ kimrhh     ] [ Rhonda      ] [ wesbot   ] 
20090911 11:09:14[ Alesis-Novik] [ CIA-62   ] [ ettin_   ] [ knotwork_  ] [ shadowmaster] [ yann     ] 
20090911 11:09:14[ Amu         ] [ corn     ] [ fendrin  ] [ lobby      ] [ shikadibot  ] [ YogiHH   ] 
20090911 11:09:14[ AnMaster    ] [ Crab_    ] [ Guest7621] [ loonybot   ] [ Smar        ] [ zookeeper] 
20090911 11:09:14[ Appleman1234] [ deekay   ] [ ilor     ] [ loonycyborg] [ Soliton     ] 
20090911 11:09:14[ blarumyrran ] [ Doppp    ] [ isaac    ] [ nital      ] [ Tigge       ] 
20090911 11:09:14[ busfahrer`  ] [ erl_     ] [ Ivanovic ] [ noy        ] [ vigg        ] 
20090911 11:09:14-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 39 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 39 normal]
20090911 11:09:33-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20090911 11:10:59-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 113 secs
20090911 11:22:42-!- fabi [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 11:28:09< CIA-62> caslav_ilic * r38595 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Updated translations for Serbian.
20090911 11:39:16-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090911 11:51:04-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@131.181.100.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090911 11:57:42-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 11:59:03-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090911 12:45:14-!- blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has quit []
20090911 13:07:42-!- ettin [n=jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 13:12:46-!- ettin_ [n=jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090911 13:29:29-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-206-27-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 13:32:29-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 14:01:45< Soliton> uh, my units get eaten by lava in th middle of my turn in httt:sof...
20090911 14:09:13-!- busfahrer` [n=busfahre@95.112.236.99] has quit ["leaving"]
20090911 14:13:43-!- stikonas [n=and@193.219.53.75] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 14:34:40-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 14:38:07< YogiHH> Soliton: Never heard of this new hidden timeout feature ;-)
20090911 14:38:14< YogiHH> ?
20090911 14:48:10-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@brsg-d9bee35e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090911 14:51:50-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 14:55:45-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@brsg-d9bee147.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 14:56:39-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090911 14:57:59-!- fabi [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 14:59:14-!- stikonas [n=and@193.219.53.75] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 15:03:52-!- stikonas_ [n=and@193.219.53.75] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 15:03:55-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090911 15:12:51-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 15:23:27-!- stikonas__ [n=and@193.219.53.75] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 15:23:40-!- stikonas_ [n=and@193.219.53.75] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090911 15:27:56-!- fendrin [n=fabi@g227084172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 15:28:33-!- stikonas__ [n=and@193.219.53.75] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 16:02:56-!- blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 16:19:14-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 16:30:56-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 16:44:45-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
20090911 16:45:13-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090911 16:46:17-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 16:58:20-!- rosso [n=rosso@dslb-088-070-068-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 16:58:50-!- rosso is now known as rosso_
20090911 17:26:18-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 17:35:45-!- YogiHH [n=chatzill@c219087.adsl.hansenet.de] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090911 18:00:34-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 18:00:41-!- Noyga is now known as Aybabtu|Avnoh
20090911 18:00:59-!- Aybabtu|Avnoh [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Quitte"]
20090911 18:20:08< zookeeper> err, someone want to try to reproduce? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27050
20090911 18:20:19< zookeeper> (i don't have 1.6.5 yet)
20090911 18:21:00-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 18:24:28-!- ilor_ [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 18:28:03-!- vigg [i=5d7d0ccf@gateway/web/freenode/x-eapzkkppzucczwve] has quit ["Page closed"]
20090911 18:35:33-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"]
20090911 18:36:00-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 18:40:33-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 18:42:07< fendrin> zookeeper: Where is a strategy of hope?
20090911 18:44:03< deekay> Ivanovic: Code sample uploaded.
20090911 18:54:58-!- chains [n=Rylar@netblock-72-25-91-59.dslextreme.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 19:08:40< zookeeper> fendrin, liberty
20090911 19:14:13< fendrin> zookeeper: I will try to reproduce it.
20090911 19:18:46-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 19:21:25< fendrin> zookeeper: no prolems here.
20090911 19:22:51< zookeeper> right
20090911 19:23:06-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090911 19:23:44< zookeeper> well, i won't worry about it then.
20090911 19:35:59-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090911 19:43:19-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 19:43:33< mordante> servus
20090911 19:44:47< fendrin> hi mordante
20090911 19:44:54< mordante> hi fendrin 
20090911 19:46:43< Sapient> 14:01 <Soliton> uh, my units get eaten by lava in th middle of my turn in httt:sof... 
20090911 19:46:54< Sapient> awesome new feature
20090911 19:47:06< Sapient> :)
20090911 19:47:10< mordante> :-)
20090911 19:48:03< blarumyrran> Hungry Lava (lvl4)
20090911 19:50:04< mordante> alink I like the idea of the new attack dialog as well especially you since you don't need to undo an action which might be impossible due to fog or ambush
20090911 19:50:17< mordante> alink and OAB ;-)
20090911 19:51:24< mordante> alink I'd say if you press t to continue, then continue as planned
20090911 19:51:51< mordante> if the user doesn't want that s/he can not press t and reselect the attack again
20090911 19:52:12-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 20:02:42< fendrin> mordante: It may also be the case that the move reveals a unit that prevents the attack by zocing the attacker.
20090911 20:06:44-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 20:06:47< fendrin> zookeeper: Would you review the commit that implements http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27028 ?
20090911 20:06:55< silene> hi
20090911 20:07:00< fendrin> hi silene
20090911 20:08:16< Sapient> greetings, silene
20090911 20:08:37-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20090911 20:09:45< zookeeper> fendrin, sure
20090911 20:09:49< zookeeper> what number would that be?
20090911 20:10:35< fendrin> zookeeper: that depends on the time when I commit it :-) . I wasn't sure if a majority of the developers agrees with the change. Please give me a minute.
20090911 20:13:11< CIA-62> fendrin * r38596 /trunk/data/core/ (macros/traits.cfg team-colors.cfg): Core macros: Defined new team colors for loyal and important units. The {LOYAL} trait macro should change that for every units in all campaign that is loyal and on side1.
20090911 20:13:16< fendrin> zookeeper: ^
20090911 20:14:35< mordante> hi silene 
20090911 20:15:10< mordante> fendrin, yup but didn't want to think of all possible cases ;-)
20090911 20:16:14< mordante> fendrin, regarding 38596, I'm not sure it's a good idea
20090911 20:16:43< mordante> we already have problems with the team colours for colour blind people and this makes it worse for them
20090911 20:17:31< mordante> IMO an overly is much clearer 
20090911 20:17:52< mordante> (that is if we want to mark the loyal trait in the first place)
20090911 20:18:14< mordante> I'd rather not since it can already be done if a campaign designer feels the need to do so
20090911 20:19:11< mordante> and of course your change won't work for UMC where a designer didn't use TC'ed unit
20090911 20:19:14< mordante> units*
20090911 20:27:06< fendrin> mordante: I would like to do that only for LoW. But silene pointed out that the change should be done to all campaigns or to none.
20090911 20:28:05< silene> bad completion? (i wasn't aware of this change until a few minutes ago)
20090911 20:28:38< fendrin> mordante: I think that there should be a solution for color blind people that does circumvent the problem with another aproach.
20090911 20:29:14< fendrin> mordante: And I would like to have a preferences setting that disables all overlay images if not wanted.
20090911 20:36:36< zookeeper> fendrin, right, i'll check the WML in a while..
20090911 20:37:12< zookeeper> fendrin, any reason why you wouldn't prefer the different shaped ellipses instead of TC changes?
20090911 20:38:41< Aethaeryn> Which dev(s) focus on WML features?
20090911 20:39:31< Sapient> Aethaeryn: currently most active is fabi, but he only write WML features in Lua
20090911 20:39:38< fendrin> zookeeper: I think different shaped ellipses is the right thing to go for color blind people. But not for loyal/normal but for the sides.
20090911 20:40:14< Aethaeryn> Sapient: eh, it's not so much *how* it's done, it's more of the possibilities *when* it is done...
20090911 20:40:25< fendrin> Sapient, Aethaeryn: That would be silene. I am not that active in this matter.
20090911 20:40:49< Aethaeryn> Someone brought up being able to write to file in a thread, so I put together a list of reasonings behind this that I came up with during a discussion with ancestral.
20090911 20:40:52< Aethaeryn> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=383769#p383769
20090911 20:40:55< Sapient> no, silene has been working on the framework, not new action tags
20090911 20:41:31< Aethaeryn> Basically, I believe it'd bring the most potential to content-making since the right click context menu (and 1.3/1.4 is really where the content took off)...
20090911 20:43:58< Sapient> persistant cross-campaign variable storage isn't a really difficult feature, but it just raises a lot of questions. synchronization would be the tricky part
20090911 20:44:20< Sapient> including replays and multiplayer
20090911 20:45:35-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 20:46:00< Aethaeryn> Sapient: True, but I think it'd be worth the effort, especially if we're going to start thinking about 1.9...
20090911 20:47:00< Aethaeryn> There's simply so many different things you could do with it, from the NPC likeability to the unlocking of a bonus to the dynamic AI difficulty, etc.
20090911 20:48:36< Aethaeryn> "#  You could carry over armies or units from one campaign/scenario to another." <- this one in particular could relate to a campaign I'm about to start on; you could set a variable that basically saves the stats of a hero unit as he appears in one campaign, so when he shows up in a later campaign he's basically carried over.
20090911 20:48:47< silene> Aethaeryn: note that, as long as you are considering a single campaign only, all of these are already possible
20090911 20:49:11< Aethaeryn> silene: "they're not CABD, because all of these are done across multiple tries of the same scenario/campaign or even across different scenario/campaigns
20090911 20:49:15< Aethaeryn> Is what I put in the post.
20090911 20:49:43< Aethaeryn> Dynamic AI difficulty, in particular, would be hard to do without a persistant variable because it requires changing the variable when you lose and carrying that over.
20090911 20:50:18< silene> cabd?
20090911 20:50:24< Aethaeryn> can already be done
20090911 20:50:30< Aethaeryn> it's ideas forum lingo
20090911 20:51:12< Aethaeryn> I tried to think of simplistic things that could be done rather easily, except for the fact that it'd only be done in one playthrough of one campaign.
20090911 20:51:52< silene> so, let me restate it again, it can already be done, as long as only one campaign is involved
20090911 20:51:57< Aethaeryn> The runes thing, for instance, could be more interesting if you had things carry over across multiple tries of the campaign. Such as "kill 100 gryphons"
20090911 20:52:35< Sapient> what if you play on multiple computers?
20090911 20:52:59< Aethaeryn> silene: Basically, my point is to make it possible through either (a) multiple playthroughs of one campaign, no savegame necessary; (b) multiple related (MP/SP) scenarios/campaigns that do not directly lead into each other.
20090911 20:53:35< Aethaeryn> Sapient: If you did it via my approach, having one .cfg file all the campaigns write to (with a prefix of their textdomain in front of the variables), you could simply copy the file (or set up a synchronization if you're tech savy)
20090911 20:54:06< silene> what's the point of the "no savegame necessary" constraint?
20090911 20:55:09< Sapient> and if one version of a UMC corrupts the variable pool, how will subsequent versions clean it up? should there be separate storage for different versions of the UMC? these answers aren't intuitive at all
20090911 20:55:13< Aethaeryn> silene: because that way, you could do things such as write variables on defeat that transfer over to your retry (again, dynamic AI difficulty) or allow you to have something affect Campaign B after you have beaten Campaign A (transfering hero unit)
20090911 20:56:08< Aethaeryn> Sapient: add a second command that clears the saved variables for an add-on? The only trouble would be if they changed the prefix.
20090911 20:56:20< Aethaeryn> Perhaps it owuld be better to change the prefix based on version.
20090911 20:56:21< silene> Aethaeryn: you can write variables on defeat; the game doesn't suddenly crash whenever you lose...
20090911 20:56:25< fendrin> The current development version of wesnoth is going to save which campaigns have been completed by the player. Making that information available to wml wouldn't have that many side effects in my opinion.
20090911 20:56:56< Aethaeryn> silene: You can write variables on defeating a scenario that then carry over to when you retry that same scenario, thus making the AI gold reduce?
20090911 20:57:24< silene> Aethaeryn: as long as you reload the savegame obtained on defeat, yes
20090911 20:57:40< Aethaeryn> Hrmm...
20090911 20:57:55< Aethaeryn> The other examples still apply though.
20090911 20:58:29-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090911 20:59:35< Sapient> the feature seems like a bug report bonanza, honestly; I'm not really interested in adopting it
20090911 20:59:37< Aethaeryn> Carrying over units between campaigns/scenarios, having NPCs in RPG scenarios have attitudes that persist across *different* times you play that particular scenario, detecting for the completion of a campaign and then providing for a bonus scenario or campaign being unlocked, or altering a scenario/campaign the second time you play through it (mostly useful for unusual MP content, whose only alternative is to randomly generate 
20090911 21:00:01< zookeeper> savefile obtained on defeat? there's no such thing
20090911 21:00:15< zookeeper> at least not that i'm aware of
20090911 21:00:45-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:00:57< Aethaeryn> Sapient: My point is that the potential benefits (a much more immersive UMC experience) are better than the obvious problems.
20090911 21:01:56< Aethaeryn> You could create a set of MP scenarios, for instance, where you could carry over your recall list, without actually having it be an MP campaign.
20090911 21:02:06< Aethaeryn> i.e. separate duels where you actually have a carrying over army.
20090911 21:02:21< Aethaeryn> So many frequently-suggested-and-turned-down ideas suddenly become possible for the realm of UMC
20090911 21:03:05< Sapient> I'll brainstorm on it a bit
20090911 21:03:15< Sapient> maybe there's a simple answer or a compromise
20090911 21:03:22< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20090911 21:03:26< Aethaeryn> I'm not saying my approach is the best.
20090911 21:03:40< Aethaeryn> I'm merely arguing for having some way to carry over things between separate scenarios/campaigns
20090911 21:03:45< mordante> fendrin, can you post some screenshot with how it looks, want to see how much the colours differ
20090911 21:04:02< mordante> fendrin, you know TC is also an engine compiletime option?
20090911 21:05:09< Aethaeryn> My main personal interests would be dynamic AI in my upcoming campaigns, as well as some kind of achievement-like system where you would get something ("runes") for doing things like completing a campaign on hard, or beating a particularly tough scenario, or doing something like "kill 100 gryphons" (which would require carrying over a tally of gryphon kill counts, as well as carrying over what runes you have earned, between dif
20090911 21:05:24< fendrin> mordante: You can see it ingame, just svn update. The newly defined colors are only stubs, feel free to adjust them if they are to similar.
20090911 21:05:45< Aethaeryn> ...between different times you plaeyd the campaign)
20090911 21:06:15< mordante> fendrin, I'm not really fond of the idea so don't want to spend time on improving it
20090911 21:07:32-!- Doppp [n=Doppp@unaffiliated/doppp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090911 21:07:40< Aethaeryn> I'd also like to see RPGs that are relatively short in length, but which have variables (your guy's stats? NPC attitudes? etc.) carry over every time you play it. Yes you could simply have it be an MP campaign that advances into itself, but you wouldn't be able to have players enter/exit each scenario (if it were MP), which would limit itself
20090911 21:08:39< Aethaeryn> Sapient: If you have a different, less buggy, approach than my idea, that'd be great. I still think that having some degree of persistance would both make a more believable gameworld and more innovative content.
20090911 21:08:53< Aethaeryn> Especially if Ken Oh, Elvish Pillager, or Bob The Mighty, liked the idea :P
20090911 21:09:12-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [No buffer space available]
20090911 21:10:42-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:11:27< Aethaeryn> Sapient: this would be a 1.9 feature, btw, since any approach would introduce too many bugs/questions to fix before 1.8
20090911 21:13:33< Sapient> It would be nice if two players could be playing Wesband separately and then meet up with each other somehow
20090911 21:15:44-!- Doppp [n=Doppp@c-67-171-96-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:16:09< CIA-62> mordante * r38597 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Move widget defintion base to its own file.
20090911 21:16:51-!- cib0 [n=cib@p5DC43348.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:18:04< Aethaeryn> Sapient: Exactly... I was thinking Wesband-style RPG for this.
20090911 21:18:35< zookeeper> wesbot, log 38596
20090911 21:18:37< wesbot> fendrin * r38596 : Core macros: Defined new team colors for loyal and important units. The {LOYAL} trait macro should change that for every units in all campaign that is loyal and on side1. 
20090911 21:18:41< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=38596
20090911 21:18:58< Aethaeryn> cib0: You may want to check #wesnoth-dev logs of the last 45 minutes or so, since I believe you came up with a similar suggestion a long time ago.
20090911 21:19:15< cib0> Aethaeryn, alright
20090911 21:19:55< zookeeper> fendrin, sapient, [effect] can take a [filter] now?
20090911 21:20:18< Sapient> not that I'm aware of...
20090911 21:22:19< zookeeper> fendrin, other than that, i guess that's fine. it's not like it's a very complicated change, that's how i'd do it..
20090911 21:22:25< zookeeper> anyways, gotta go afk ->
20090911 21:23:24< fendrin> zookeeper: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/EffectWML very prominent at the end of the first paragraph.
20090911 21:24:16< Sapient> fendrin: is that a new change?
20090911 21:25:54< Sapient> also, I find it a bit confusing
20090911 21:26:57< Sapient> it could mean that the filter is checked once, and the effect never applies; it could be checked every time the unit is stored/unstored or levels up; it could be checked every time the unit moves or attacks, etc
20090911 21:28:40< fendrin> Sapient: No, it's not new as far as I know. An effect is aplied once. After the effect has been assigned to the unit there are no further tests. afaik
20090911 21:30:00< cib0> Aethaeryn: what exactly do you mean by "dynamic AI difficulty"?
20090911 21:30:47< cib0> hm..
20090911 21:31:02-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:31:43< cib0> here's a solution: before the scenario is built, every player sends their relevant stored WML to the host, the host then inserts that into the scenario WML
20090911 21:31:57< cib0> reloads of that same scenario would of course contain the data of the original player
20090911 21:32:20< cib0> there are problems with that though if you play multiple sides
20090911 21:32:56< Aethaeryn> cib0: Dynamic difficulty works like this... Basically, if you could store some WML, you could record the amount of times you win or lose scenarios in a campaign (otherwise you could only mark the times you win)... You have the wins/loses affect a gold multiplier. You win a scenario, and the AI will have more gold than normal. You lose a scenario, and when you retry that scenario the gold multiplier would be lower.
20090911 21:33:12< cib0> Aethaeryn: gotcha
20090911 21:33:39< cib0> basically, there are two possibilities.. either use the whole "client" as identity.. or use "client+side" as identity
20090911 21:34:11< cib0> first solution would fuck up games where one player controls multiple sides.. second solution would make it impossible for players who played the same side to "merge"
20090911 21:34:31< Aethaeryn> cib0: So basically, you lose a scenario and the AI adjusts to be easier, perhaps with a cap for how hard or easy it gets.
20090911 21:34:54< Aethaeryn> An alternative to having to go back to an earlier scenario to get more gold :P
20090911 21:35:14< Aethaeryn> cib0: also, you may want to tell your approach to Sapient 
20090911 21:35:30< cib0> Sapient: ^
20090911 21:35:35< cib0> yeah, i'm lazy :p
20090911 21:35:53< Aethaeryn> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=383789#p383789 <- anyone like my Wesnothian vampire story?
20090911 21:36:48< Sapient> so far we have avoided the possibility of clients sending arbitrary WML to one another
20090911 21:37:51< cib0> Sapient: huh? does the server filter it or something?
20090911 21:38:03< cib0> because if not, that's what any modified client could be doing
20090911 21:38:15< Sapient> no, events trigger on all clients independantly
20090911 21:39:08< Sapient> we don't even send many strings, mostly coordinates and indeces
20090911 21:39:51< cib0> Sapient: we send data from the host client to the client client, i don't see a problem with doing it vice verca
20090911 21:40:34< Sapient> the initial WML document from the host is uploaded to the server, but it doesn't send any new WML after that
20090911 21:40:36< cib0> oh, wait.. actually the host client is just broadcasting
20090911 21:41:01-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@e180198068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:41:15< mordante> hi kitty_ 
20090911 21:41:19< kitty_> hey
20090911 21:41:45-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:41:45< Sapient> I think transmitting the entire persistant variable pool of each client to the server is probably something to be avoided
20090911 21:41:56< Sapient> we would need to weigh the consequences of that
20090911 21:42:37-!- giusef [n=giusef@unaffiliated/giusef] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:42:45< cib0> Sapient: i said this long ago, but i think theoretically it would be better to redesign the networking to be more interactive
20090911 21:43:12< Sapient> this also raises the question of the host being able to modify variables in your persistant pool
20090911 21:44:23< Sapient> that could be abused probably
20090911 21:45:24< cib0> Sapient: it would be possible, of course. it's a very simple way of sharing data, one that doesn't involve a lot of security/integrity
20090911 21:45:51< Sapient> the more I think about it, the more I think it is too complicated for the WML author to be implementing such things using no tool other than a special variable pool
20090911 21:47:29< Crab_> Sapient: what about implementing this as a way to load a game from multiple saves ?
20090911 21:48:04< Sapient> probably the idea needs to be refined into well-defined use cases and then explored as to how to make that use case happen most easily for WML authors
20090911 21:48:04< Crab_> Sapient: i.e. "on scenario start, each player sends a save to the host, and the host uses the data in that save to initialize the scenario which will be played"
20090911 21:48:23< cib0> Crab_: that is what we were talking about
20090911 21:48:48< Sapient> Crab_: sounds like it could be a promising approach
20090911 21:49:08< cib0> i think that the data should be read using lua/WML though
20090911 21:49:38< cib0> it's completely untrusted data, using it directly could abuse a bug to crash the client or worse
20090911 21:50:25< cib0> (of course, it could be done. theoretically, a WML author could decide to have the user evaluate arbitrary WML through the [input] tag)
20090911 21:51:43< Crab_> Sapient: by using a 'merge savegames' way, we'll avoid all issues with 'host messing with local state' and 'need to send all global variables to host'. - since the save will contain only the relevant state.
20090911 21:52:11< CIA-62> fendrin * r38598 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/maps/strategy_of_hope.map: L: Fixed the borders of a map.
20090911 21:52:16< fendrin> zookeeper: ^
20090911 21:53:11< Sapient> Savegame Fusion :)
20090911 21:53:21< Sapient> I look forward to the savegame fusion engine
20090911 21:53:22< Crab_> Sapient, cib0: I're discussed the application of this to MP campaigns on 2009-09-06 
20090911 21:53:39< Crab_> Sapient: MP campaigns with a persistent 'game world'
20090911 21:53:55-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 21:53:57< Sapient> ala markm
20090911 21:54:32 * fendrin was laughing very load while playing markm's campaign.
20090911 21:54:46< fendrin> s/load/loud
20090911 21:55:06< Crab_> for example, 'syncing with saves' will also allow each player to play alone for some time, and then rejoin for some collective scenarios
20090911 21:55:55-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 21:56:19< silene> by the way, it is already possible to send arbitrary data to another client over the network, it's just a matter of encoding it into unit moves, for instance
20090911 21:57:24< CIA-62> mordante * r38599 /trunk/src/ai/formula/ai.cpp: Initialize all members.
20090911 21:57:37-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090911 21:57:37< CIA-62> mordante * r38600 /trunk/src/variant.cpp: Initialize all members.
20090911 22:00:23< Sapient> yeah, I guess you could encode a WML structure with moves, reconstruct it into a variable, and then execute it using [insert_tag]
20090911 22:00:53< cib0> heh
20090911 22:01:53< Sapient> when you start sending strings and/or entire WML nodes between clients, it raises "buffer" questions
20090911 22:02:27< Sapient> like how much data do we really want to accept
20090911 22:03:11< Sapient> potential security issues if you manage to overflow a buffer
20090911 22:03:58-!- Fab1 [n=Fab@ANantes-251-1-119-144.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:04:29< Crab_> mordante: a few questions about gui callbacks. 1)  a window callback has a form of 'callback_button(twindow& window)'. why it needs a twindow window parameter ?
20090911 22:04:55< Fab1> anyone here knows wesnoth internals? I recently ported 1.6.x to MorphOS, and i have a serious issue with background drawing/clearing, it seems ( http://fabportnawak.free.fr/wesnoth-glitch ) Previous versions (1.4.x, 1.2.x) didn't show that kind of bug. Anyone could point me to the related code so i can debug it? :)   
20090911 22:05:02-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 22:08:12< mordante> Crab_, can you give an example?
20090911 22:08:38-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:11:32< mordante> Fab1, display.cpp/hpp and game_display.cpp/hpp and in the former the drawing_buffer renders the times
20090911 22:11:34< mordante> tiles*
20090911 22:11:59< Fab1> ok, will try to see what happens there :)
20090911 22:12:19< Crab_> mordante: see http://pastebin.mozilla.org/670819
20090911 22:13:06< Crab_> mordante: that way it works. but, I'm wondering if I'm allowed to find that widget earlier, and then reuse it in that callback
20090911 22:13:08< mordante> Fab1, what's the number of colours on the MorphOS?
20090911 22:14:04< Fab1> mordante: it's a 32bits argb surface in that case, i think
20090911 22:14:44< Fab1> (and it's a bigendian architecture, assuming it would make a difference)
20090911 22:14:56< Crab_> mordante: i.e., is something like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m45c825f2 allowed ?
20090911 22:14:57< mordante> ok, that might be the difference
20090911 22:15:58< mordante> Crab_, the callbacks suck and I want to change them more to a slot mechanism and using boost::function instead
20090911 22:16:55< mordante> Crab_, I think the code in teditor_generate_map::pre_show() (gui/dialogs/editor_generate_map.cpp) is the most elegant solution at the moment
20090911 22:17:49< mordante> the window parameter is only needed if you need to other things with the window (use member(function)s )
20090911 22:18:45< Crab_> mordante: so, if I find a widget and store it inside the class, it won't get invalidated later ?
20090911 22:19:01-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:19:59< mordante> all widgets stay valid as long as the window exists (and they don't get messed with like removing a listbox row)
20090911 22:20:23< mordante> so if you keep that in mind it's save
20090911 22:20:56< Crab_> mordante: ok, thanks
20090911 22:21:07-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 22:22:53< mordante> and of course we still might want to look at the persistent dialog idea
20090911 22:23:23-!- stikonas [n=and@213.164.125.176] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:23:27< mordante> btw I also store some pointers to widgets in the pre_show event which is safe
20090911 22:24:12< mordante> done same file as before with current_generator_label_
20090911 22:24:12< Crab_> mordante: ok, understood. I was just wondering if they are invalidated,  because of the presence of 'window' parameter.
20090911 22:25:40< mordante> no it's just that a widget callback doesn't get it's parent window as parameter
20090911 22:25:55< mordante> this due to the fact that a widget doesn't need to be inside a window
20090911 22:26:07< mordante> (rather unlikely but possible)
20090911 22:26:21-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 22:26:32< mordante> and most of the time you want to call a window member function if it's inside a window
20090911 22:27:08< mordante> but maybe I'll change that part as well
20090911 22:27:28< mordante> the whole gui think is a rather nice learning experiment ;-)
20090911 22:27:34< mordante> thing*
20090911 22:27:41< Crab_> mordante: with something like get_current_window() member function ?
20090911 22:28:31< mordante> get_window()
20090911 22:28:35-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090911 22:28:42-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-213-164-125-176.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:28:53< mordante> which of course returns a pointer
20090911 22:31:17-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090911 22:31:32-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:31:37< mordante> I'm off night
20090911 22:32:10-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090911 22:35:50-!- Aethaery1 [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:36:00-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
20090911 22:36:04-!- Aethaery1 is now known as Aethaeryn
20090911 22:37:38-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 22:39:35-!- yann [n=dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 22:40:53-!- YogiHH [n=chatzill@c225069.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 23:05:58-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has quit ["Saurian Augur - I'll heal you by 4 hp if you leave next to me"]
20090911 23:10:27-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 23:13:24-!- giusef [n=giusef@unaffiliated/giusef] has quit ["exit (-1);"]
20090911 23:22:47-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.139.133] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 23:23:37-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.139.133] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090911 23:25:11< Soliton> clever, someone replaced the sea serpents with water serpents in the cliffs of thoria so that the half dead sergeant immediatly gets killed after you discover him, since they can move on mountains...
20090911 23:27:14< Ivanovic> deekay: great
20090911 23:27:22< Ivanovic> (regarding code upload)
20090911 23:32:58-!- chains [n=Rylar@netblock-72-25-91-59.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090911 23:42:30< Sapient> Soliton: clever indeed
20090911 23:47:35-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
--- Log closed Sat Sep 12 00:00:17 2009