--- Log opened Thu Sep 17 00:00:38 2009
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20090917 00:07:51< YogiHH> Soliton: Updated the coc list with my forum account
20090917 00:14:48< Soliton> YogiHH: ok, i set moderator status on it.
20090917 00:15:09< YogiHH> night everyone
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20090917 00:39:40< Crab_> fendrin: hello
20090917 00:41:29< Crab_> fendrin: a question: how should AIs usage of recall lists work with recruitment_pattern ? should AI obey recruitment_pattern when looking for units from recall list ? or should it prioritize recalling those veterans it considers 'good' regardless of recruitment_pattern ?
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20090917 01:07:16< Soliton> i think using recruitment_pattern for recruiting and recalling just asks for trouble later on.
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20090917 01:08:35< Crab_> Soliton: so, you recommend ' prioritize recalling those veterans that are considered 'good' " solution ? or invent a separate 'recall_pattern' ?
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20090917 01:09:18< Soliton> implement a recall_pattern when someone asks for it. :-P
20090917 01:10:03< Soliton> tying the default algorithm to recruitment_pattern is probably not a good idea.
20090917 01:10:28< Crab_> well, default recruitment algorithm is tied to recruitment_pattern hack anyway :)
20090917 01:11:06< CIA-62> crab * r38680 /trunk/src/ai/ (9 files in 2 dirs): ai recall action and recall() formula ai function. This allows ai to recall units. (note: at this point, it doesn't do that, unless instructed via formula ai)
20090917 01:11:33< Soliton> right, but not the default recall algorithm.
20090917 01:11:57< Crab_> well, there's no 'default recall algorithm' at this point :) and I'll tie it up with recruitment anyway.
20090917 01:12:28< Soliton> you were asking about the default recall algorithm was my understanding.
20090917 01:12:51< Crab_> yes, I was asking about recall algorithm
20090917 01:13:47< Crab_> it is not present at this point, and I will add 'consider recalling something' part to recruitment phase. the question is : 'how this should interact with recruitment_pattern?'
20090917 01:14:50< Soliton> my answer is 'not at all'.
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20090917 01:44:25< fendrin> Soliton: Introduce a recall_pattern?
20090917 01:47:13< Soliton> as i said, if someone actually wants that sure. i have no idea in what people might want to tweak recalling.
20090917 01:47:22< Soliton> +way
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20090917 04:03:30< Sirp> happygrue: so been playing any Catan lately?
20090917 04:05:34< happygrue> Sirp:  not lately, no
20090917 04:05:42< happygrue> I was really busy over the summer
20090917 04:06:16< happygrue> now I am getting a bit more time creaping into my schedule though, if you want to catch a game sometime ;)
20090917 04:30:48< Sirp> happygrue: sure....I recently got the Seafarers board game, and had a few late nights with it with some friends. :)
20090917 04:31:02< happygrue> nice :)
20090917 04:31:02< Sirp> happygrue: incidentally have you played Tigris & Euphrates?
20090917 04:31:09< happygrue> no, but I have heard of it
20090917 04:31:18< Sirp> yeah, I haven't played it but it looks intriguing.
20090917 04:31:21< Sirp> more of a "gamer's game"
20090917 04:31:51< Sirp> I am getting Carcassonne soon.....it looks like an even more "child/game neophyte" friendly game than Catan is.
20090917 04:32:06< Sirp> the the strategy/way to score in Carcassonne seems somewhat complicated.
20090917 04:35:42< happygrue> carcassonne is a fun game because there is some fun strategy, but it is pretty simple - enough that a wide audiance can play it
20090917 04:35:45< happygrue> I own that one
20090917 04:39:59 * Sirp nods
20090917 04:40:19< Sirp> I figure even my toddler son can probably 'play' it as in he can work out where to lay the tiles, though probably not the strategy of when to put people down. :)
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20090917 04:41:14< happygrue> I like settlers better personally, but it is a fun game for sure :)
20090917 04:42:55< Sirp> yeah I think I will like settlers better too, simply that my wife has some friends who can't be convinced to play settlers but who I don't think could find an excuse not to play carcassonne. :)
20090917 04:43:19< happygrue> Sirp: I played a game called lost cities with a friend that is a great 2 player game with numbered cards.  Pretty fun, and I bet it would be another game that could be played "before long"
20090917 04:43:32< happygrue> exactly
20090917 04:44:46< happygrue> by a child that is
20090917 04:45:00< happygrue> Sirp: actually the big board game that I have been interested in lately is Go
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20090917 04:45:33< happygrue> which I have been playing online a bit
20090917 04:45:49< Sirp> happygrue: ahhh Go is a good game, though I have never quite grasped the strategy fully
20090917 04:46:03< happygrue> I like it much better than chess, and I played chess a lot back a few years ago
20090917 04:46:10< happygrue> yeah, I am quite the amature also ;)
20090917 04:47:19< happygrue> Sirp: btw, do you work on Chrome at all?
20090917 04:47:44< Sirp> yeah I played chess enough in high school to get burned out on it, especially when I got beaten by these precocious 8 year olds whose parents had them study with private chess tutors. :)
20090917 04:47:52< Sirp> happygrue: no I didn't work on Chrome.
20090917 04:47:55< happygrue> hehe
20090917 04:48:08< Sirp> happygrue: in my time at Google I worked pretty much exclusively on Google Analytics.
20090917 04:48:27< happygrue> ah, you have moved on?
20090917 04:48:39< Sirp> happygrue: yeah, I work at  Sabre now.
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20090917 04:50:00< Sirp> (you probably know them better as the owners of Travelocity :)
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20090917 04:50:11< happygrue> ah, yes I do :)
20090917 04:50:41< Sirp> though really Travelocity is only one portion of our business. :)
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20090917 05:07:42< esr> happygrue: I knnow Carcassonne and own a copy.
20090917 05:08:26< esr> And yes, Lost Cities is a very elegant little game.
20090917 05:08:39< happygrue> esr: it is the favorite game of one of my sisters.
20090917 05:08:53< happygrue> I was surprised at how much I enjoyed lost cities
20090917 05:09:00< esr> Subtle but very vicious strategy in that game.
20090917 05:09:11< happygrue> indeed
20090917 05:10:20< esr> Abd, Sirp: In the circles I hang out in, Carcasonne is often called "the gateway drug" - it's what you teach people to get them into Eurogames.
20090917 05:12:41< happygrue> hehe
20090917 05:13:03< happygrue> seems about right
20090917 05:15:11< Sirp> esr: yeah that's what I figure. :)
20090917 05:15:30< Sirp> from Carcassonne to Settlers.....but then I think it'd be hard to get most over to Tigris & Euphrates. :)
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20090917 05:16:50< esr> It starts with Carcasonne.  Then it's Settlers of Cataan, Dominion, Puerto Rico...and before you knoeww it they're playing Power Grid and the Mayfair rail games and all hope is gone.  Monkey on the back for life... :-)
20090917 05:17:37< esr> Bwahaa.  And the Eurogamers claim another victim.
20090917 05:17:51< MikeJB> esr: ?
20090917 05:17:58< MikeJB> Board games of some sort?
20090917 05:18:03< Sirp> MikeJB: mmmhmmm
20090917 05:18:05< esr> MikeJB: Yes.
20090917 05:18:18< MikeJB> I tried to play Axis and Allies with my friends once.
20090917 05:18:52< Sirp> Axis and Allies isn't a eurogame
20090917 05:18:53< MikeJB> We spent more time setting up than playing since one left to his room round one and never came back (it was in a dorm)
20090917 05:19:36< MikeJB> True, but I do find computer strategy games more *playable*
20090917 05:19:36< MikeJB> no set-up time.
20090917 05:20:15< Sirp> that is why Caracassonne is what you start with. It also has almost zero setup time.
20090917 05:20:25< Sirp> and Catan has very little, though the tiles can be a little finnicky
20090917 05:25:17< happygrue> Sirp: that website that we were playing settlers on also has a carcassone knock-off
20090917 05:25:20< happygrue> FYI
20090917 05:26:58< noy> whats wrong with setlers?
20090917 05:27:26< Sirp> happygrue: yes I know, I was playing it. :)
20090917 05:27:30< Sirp> noy: nothing, settlers is an awesome game
20090917 05:27:33< noy> Its a fun game that absolves me from playing social games like "things in a box" with my girlfriend and her friends
20090917 05:28:07< Sirp> happygrue: I haven't found a good online implementation of Tigris & Euphrates yet though. :(
20090917 05:29:25< happygrue> let me know if you do
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20090917 05:30:09< Sirp> it looks interesting though I'm still trying to grok how to play it exactly.
20090917 05:30:34< Sirp> and if I bought the board game I'm not convinced my wife would be willing to try. :)
20090917 05:30:57< Sirp> the moment she figured out we could be more antagonistic toward each other than the bandit in Catan, she'd be all out. :)
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20090917 06:56:39< Soliton> "keeps saying im missing some KID?" on some 'missing child' WML error probably. :-P
20090917 06:57:01< Soliton> (some guy on the mp server.)
20090917 07:03:09< CIA-62> soliton * r38681 /branches/1.6/src/server/server.cpp: don't check for the IP for simple usernames in searchlog since we can have several entries with the same username now; also made sl an alias for searchlog
20090917 07:03:32< CIA-62> soliton * r38682 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: don't check for the IP for simple usernames in searchlog since we can have several entries with the same username now; also made sl an alias for searchlog
20090917 07:07:38< Sirp> Soliton: nice. :)
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20090917 07:14:25< Soliton> Ivanovic: trunk svn checkout somehow broke again.. in a really weird way. for some reason files were missing and svn insisted on trying to find them so i did just delete and re-checkout the whole subdir. no idea what caused that...
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20090917 09:38:48< YogiHH> hello
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20090917 09:57:47< Ivanovic> moin
20090917 10:00:45< Ivanovic> YogiHH, Sapient: since the info for us regarding how to get reimbursed is now online, please send us your recipes for the flight costs to the mentor summit (since i assume that both of you have booked already)
20090917 10:01:27< Ivanovic> then sirp can "soon" send in the stuff so that you can hopefully "soon" (probably some time november) get the money back
20090917 10:01:39< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Will do tonight.
20090917 10:02:06< Ivanovic> okay
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20090917 11:26:25< YogiHH> hi euschn
20090917 11:27:42< YogiHH> euschn: I noted, that the savegame [variables] are still on the root level. What do you think about transferring them to [replay_start] (they seem to be in the snapshot already)?
20090917 11:31:41< euschn> YogiHH: if they are in the snapshot already (and read from there when loading midgame saves), then it sounds fine to me
20090917 11:32:01< euschn> not sure if I can look into it today, but I can try tomorrow or on monday
20090917 11:32:56< euschn> YogiHH: by the way, was my mp campaign of any help when looking into those bugs?
20090917 11:37:21< YogiHH> euschn: For consistency i would like to read the variables from [replay_start] when switching to the next scenario instead of the root level. For midgame saves it's indeed not a matter.
20090917 11:38:06< YogiHH> euschn: And yes, your mp campaign works like a charme :) . I am glad you insisted on it when i told you it might be too much work ;-)
20090917 11:52:49< euschn> glad to hear that :)
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20090917 16:26:54< Elvenisko> hello
20090917 16:27:27< Elvenisko> can anybody help? problem with campaign, especially with taking item from the ground :)
20090917 16:28:29< Elvenisko> http://pastebin.com/m2154d622
20090917 16:29:28< Elvenisko> now, when i move a hero called Erika to the x15 y2, it will get "i cant take this book. only erika can take it", and then the correct one. what can i do?
20090917 16:31:57< Elvenisko> hm? :(
20090917 16:33:48< Ivanovic> ehm, you do know that this filter does *always* match?
20090917 16:33:54< Ivanovic> the one for "i can't take it"
20090917 16:34:08< Ivanovic> so the 2nd does not even trigger
20090917 16:34:33< Ivanovic> you should add an [if] block with a not erika thingie to the first moveto event
20090917 16:35:26< Soliton> indeed, it's a bad idea to rely on the execution order of events.
20090917 16:35:56< Soliton> (it would probably work if you just put the specific event first though.)
20090917 16:36:37< Soliton> (you'd still get the second message though, at least in the dev version.)
20090917 16:40:07< Elvenisko> so, in the first one i have to add <not> and </not> and id=Erika?
20090917 16:42:36< Elvenisko> like this? http://pastebin.com/m6aa8abea
20090917 16:45:40< Soliton> does it not work?
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20090917 16:56:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 95 bugs, 243 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090917 17:52:38< Elvenisko> working, yeah :)
20090917 17:52:42< Elvenisko> thank you all :)
20090917 17:52:54< Elvenisko> or thanks all of you? :)
20090917 17:57:57< CIA-62> fendrin * r38683 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/low-macros.cfg: LoW: Changes in the characters macros.
20090917 17:58:43< CIA-62> fendrin * r38684 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/ (6 files): LoW: finished the port to the new persistence system.
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20090917 18:16:37< CIA-62> elias * r38685 /trunk/data/tools/wmlunits: [wmlunits] change the process names of wmlunits to 'wmlunits' so it can be killed more easily
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20090917 18:51:28< fendrin> Ivanovic: Anything happened in case of the "unit stands in wrong direction after move" bug?
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20090917 19:03:19< Ivanovic> fendrin: no idea
20090917 19:08:44< fendrin> Ivanovic: Filled a bug report and assigned it to boucman.
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20090917 19:32:58< Ivanovic> fendrin: mkay
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20090917 20:22:55< Crab_> deekay: around ?
20090917 20:23:38< CIA-62> crab * r38686 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): ai.recall_list formula ai property, which allows to get access to the recall list
20090917 20:24:13< fendrin> hi Crab_
20090917 20:24:19< Crab_> hi fendrin
20090917 20:25:23< fendrin> I read your question from a day ago. Why not use a new attribute recall_pattern that defaults to the recruit_pattern?
20090917 20:26:36< Crab_> deekay: note: I've implemented engine support for ai recalls, via fai formula:  recall(string_unit_id  [, optional_recall_location])   and recall_list property of the ai. so, you're welcome to try to integrate it to fai recruitment.
20090917 20:27:58< deekay> Crab_: Thanks for info
20090917 20:28:11< deekay> I'm a bit busy lately, but goot to know
20090917 20:28:12< deekay> :)
20090917 20:28:15< deekay> good even
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20090917 20:29:25< Crab_> fendrin: 'default to recruitment pattern' is tricky in case of an empty recruitment pattern.
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20090917 20:31:14< Crab_> s/empty recruitment pattern/empty recall pattern
20090917 20:31:31< Crab_> fendrin: i.e. how to specify 'recall anything you wish, in any order' ?
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20090917 20:37:22< fendrin> Crab_: empty recruit_pattern list is doing exactly that for recall, isn't it?
20090917 20:37:40< Crab_> fendrin: what if recruit_pattern is not empty ?
20090917 20:37:57< Crab_> fendrin: i.e. if the wanted behavior is : "recruit fighters, recall any"
20090917 20:38:46< Crab_> fendrin: i.e. "  recruit_pattern=fighter      recall_pattern=   " will not work
20090917 20:40:50< Soliton> you can decide whether a key is empty or not given at all.
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20090917 20:41:59< silene> hi
20090917 20:44:13< Crab_> Soliton: this is less foolproof that I want it to be.
20090917 20:46:38< Crab_> Soliton: since, as I read from /wiki/SyntaxWML , there are caveats in using  key=$empty  workaround.
20090917 20:46:54< Crab_> hi silene
20090917 20:48:00< Soliton> well, that is a workaround for keys that don't explicitely support it.
20090917 20:53:13< Crab_> Soliton: so, just using config::has_attribute will get keys like 'recall_pattern=' ?
20090917 20:55:23< Soliton> yes.
20090917 20:58:18< Crab_> I'm more in favor of making recall_pattern default to empty value  (recall any units), and provide a specific value like "recall_pattern=as_recruits" to make it use recruitment_pattern for recalls.
20090917 21:00:30 * Soliton agrees.
20090917 21:02:34< Crab_> because I'm sure that I'll most probably miss a bug or two if I go the 'differentiate empty attribute vs not present attribute' (in some where like initial config parsing, modify_side, modify_ai, hot redeployment, saving, loading, loading of old saves, etc)
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20090917 21:42:01< Crab_> fendrin: will you autorecall ai's loyals ?
20090917 21:42:13< Crab_> (if there's any)
20090917 21:46:03< fendrin> Crab_: Do you ask because you want to know if the ai needs to prefer loyal units?
20090917 21:47:39< Crab_> exactly
20090917 22:06:20< fendrin> Crab_: it's a feature that's nice to have. But it's not a problem to recall the loyals so no problem.
20090917 22:08:17< Crab_> fendrin: the problem is that adding features to default ai recruitment is not the best thing to do - it'll duplicate deekay's work on recruitment.
20090917 22:09:33< Crab_> fendrin: note that 'ask the ai to unconditionally recall all loyals' is possible atm, too, via a side_formulas stage with formula 'recall loyals'
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20090917 22:11:22< fendrin> Crab_: that is enough for now.
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20090917 23:24:15< Sirp> Rhonda: around?
20090917 23:25:53< Ivanovic> Sirp: IIRC Rhonda is on holidays
20090917 23:25:57< Ivanovic> no idea when they are over
20090917 23:28:02< Sirp> okay, Soliton and I worked it out anyhow. :)
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20090917 23:29:02< Ivanovic> great
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 18 00:00:47 2009