--- Log opened Fri Sep 18 00:00:47 2009
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20090918 00:05:05< Sapient> how cool would it be if there was a "create Campaign" button from within Wesnoth?
20090918 00:05:40< Sapient> that would allow you to manage campaigns you are developing
20090918 00:12:23< Soliton> like, start $EDITOR with mycampaign/_main.cfg?
20090918 00:13:05< Sapient> like, never hand edit a _main.cfg again
20090918 00:13:47< Sapient> moving the editor into the main menu was a step in the right direction I think
20090918 00:13:55< Sapient> this is the next logical evolution
20090918 00:14:43< Soliton> seems to me like a scenario editor would be the next step.
20090918 00:15:40< Sapient> a scenario editor is not an easy goal though... once you get to the scenario level things get tricky
20090918 00:16:17< Sapient> there are so many variables to tweak (aside from WML events), that putting them all into a GUI would be quite a task
20090918 00:16:56< Soliton> well, i don't understand how a campaign editor would be any less complicated.
20090918 00:18:00< Sapient> making some skeleton campaign that moves from one scenario to the next, and allowing each map to be edited, should be fairly straightforward
20090918 00:19:15< Sapient> for a prototype you might not even allow the type of leaders/factions to be specified and just make them all Konrad vs. Orc Warlord
20090918 00:20:20< Sapient> then editing the scenario files would be a lot less intimidating, since you know they are all in the right place and linked together properly
20090918 00:21:19< Soliton> ahh, i see now. that'd probably help eliminate some common issues, yeah.
20090918 00:21:34< Sapient> we do have some contributers who are able to understand ScenarioWML but can't figure out _main.cfg
20090918 00:21:45< Sapient> this would lower the bar for them
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20090918 00:53:46< YogiHH> night everyone
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20090918 01:51:57< fendrin> can I give a unit fire damage for example that is calculated against the right resistence through wml?
20090918 01:52:51< Sapient> not directly, no
20090918 01:53:17< Sapient> although it's probably not difficult to calculate
20090918 01:57:07< fendrin> It is very hard to simulate the damage effect on the unit.
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20090918 02:07:28< Sapient> you mean to animate the unit getting hit?
20090918 02:07:39< Sapient> or, just calculating the proper damage?
20090918 02:09:02< Sapient> I guess it is pretty complex when you throw in abilities such as steadfast
20090918 02:10:20< Sapient> ideally, we do need some support for this behavior in a tag such as [harm_unit]
20090918 02:11:07< Sapient> should be added to wiki/FutureWML if it's not already there...
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20090918 04:56:25-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 94 bugs, 243 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090918 07:58:17< Ivanovic> corn: got a problem with stats.wesnoth.org
20090918 07:58:36< Ivanovic> corn: the kill maps here have some "no data" where it should show the map tiles
20090918 07:58:48< Ivanovic> the overlay with the "killings" works though
20090918 08:00:01< Ivanovic> moin
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20090918 08:14:55 * cib0 fancies the addon filter system.
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20090918 08:59:57< YogiHH> hello
20090918 09:00:53< cib0> hey yogi
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20090918 12:38:42< YogiHH> Soliton: where is this mp admin command documentation again?
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20090918 12:40:22< YogiHH> Soliton: nm, i found it
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20090918 12:46:49< Ivanovic> YogiHH: the recipe you mailed me looks fine
20090918 12:47:13< Ivanovic> YogiHH: it will take some more time though since Sirp wants to get the bank account stuff for "wesnoth inc" done first
20090918 12:47:25< Ivanovic> (and we will receive the money on this account)
20090918 12:47:46< YogiHH> Ivanovic: np, i can wait
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20090918 14:18:43< CIA-62> esr * r38687 /trunk/data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/1_Tutorial.cfg: Address bug #14180.
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20090918 14:19:53< Ivanovic> hi boucman
20090918 14:20:00< boucman> hey all
20090918 14:20:19< Ivanovic> can you have a look at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?14336 ?
20090918 14:21:10< boucman> not until next WE, unfortunately
20090918 14:21:19< Ivanovic> okay
20090918 14:34:37< Ivanovic> YogiHH, boucman: have you gotten a notification by fedex regarding a package from google shipped to you?
20090918 14:34:56< boucman> yes, but I havn't received it yet
20090918 14:34:59< Ivanovic> (that is i am a little suprised that they seem to not use plain air mail but fed ex including tracking)
20090918 14:35:33< YogiHH> Ivanovic: the packet arrived here yesterday
20090918 14:35:47< Ivanovic> mine was *sent* yesterday, so it will take some more time till i receive it (though i have no idea which company will deliver it since IIRC FedEx does not handle the stuff themselves in germany)
20090918 14:35:54< stikonas> Ivanovic: can you assign this: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?14341
20090918 14:36:13< Ivanovic> stikonas: no idea whos job that is
20090918 14:36:19< Ivanovic> maybe zookeeper feels responsible?
20090918 14:36:31< stikonas> it maybe the bug in the engine
20090918 14:36:42< stikonas> I don't know for sure
20090918 14:36:46< Ivanovic> YogiHH: how was it delivered? via plain "deutsche post" or via some currier service?
20090918 14:37:24< YogiHH> Ivanovic: no idea, i wasn't at home.
20090918 14:37:30< Ivanovic> ah, okay
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20090918 15:26:38< zookeeper> Ivanovic, stikonas, err, if the game shows wrong sprites for units then naturally that's an engine bug
20090918 15:29:07< Ivanovic> zookeeper: with some wml i am not so sure that the sprites shown are *not* what the wml asks for...
20090918 15:29:08< Ivanovic> ;)
20090918 15:29:28< Ivanovic> (and yes, this is IMO the case for those special mp scenario things)
20090918 15:30:00< zookeeper> i have no memory of what dark forecast maybe might do.
20090918 15:30:25< Ivanovic> my memory just tells me that it is more than just a plain mp map
20090918 15:30:33< zookeeper> yes, of course it is.
20090918 15:30:35< Ivanovic> IIRC it is something along the lines of survival scenarios
20090918 15:31:11< Ivanovic> and those are always suspect to me so i first expect there to be some bug in the WML before suspecting that the engine is faulty
20090918 15:31:13< Ivanovic> ;)
20090918 15:31:53< zookeeper> the report didn't say, so i'm not going to guess and rummage through the WML just in case the report actually meant something other than what it says.
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20090918 15:57:24< Soliton> it's supposed to spawn some level 2 units but they just look like them and have level 1 stats for some reason. hopefully silene will finish the rewrite in lua soon.
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20090918 16:51:55< deekay> wesnoth.org looks wierd. ;)
20090918 16:52:31< ugasoft> what happens?
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20090918 18:50:50< YogiHH> hi, i just happened to notice a remark on the forums moderator control panel, containing some reminder for tsi. Never noticed that before. Is it kind of a blackboard for moderator uses?
20090918 18:51:32< Soliton> no, it's just being abused by tsi. :->
20090918 18:51:57< Soliton> it's for users to report stuff.
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20090918 18:53:34< mordante> servus
20090918 18:57:51< YogiHH> zookeeper: are you there?
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20090918 19:12:15< fendrin> zookeeper: The ai controller macros are broken. Must be introduced by the ai changes. I have had a look at it but can't find the problems. May I assign the bug to you?
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20090918 19:17:07< Soliton> do we not even allow linking to possibly copyrighted content?
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20090918 19:17:57< Soliton> http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27142  seems fine to me.
20090918 19:18:11< fendrin> Soliton: Hmmm, often the artists point to a external image for reference.
20090918 19:18:23< zookeeper> fendrin, well, i'm not at all familiar with the recent AI changes
20090918 19:21:11< fendrin> zookeeper: There is also something wrong with the wml itself. I guess the code insertion from variables fails.
20090918 19:21:25< fendrin> [insert_tag] might be broken
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20090918 19:44:36< zookeeper> fendrin, any idea where exactly?
20090918 19:45:40< zookeeper> oh, you mean http://gna.org/bugs/?14256 ?
20090918 19:45:55< zookeeper> hmh, i'll assign to myself and try to give it a look this weekend..
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20090918 19:49:20< Aethaeryn> Any concrete date on 1.8 yet?
20090918 19:49:48< fendrin> zookeeper: Right, that is the bug I mean.
20090918 19:49:56< Aethaeryn> I intend to clean up the campaigns section sometime before to 1.8 similar to how I did the races/factions/eras prior to 1.4
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20090918 20:12:52< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38688 /trunk/po/ (23 files in 23 dirs): updated German translation
20090918 20:15:06< mordante> Ivanovic, guess I'll need to tune cmake a bit more, just have a closer look ^
20090918 20:15:27< Ivanovic> jupp, all the lovely POT-REVISION updates...
20090918 20:16:05< mordante> and guess you're too lazy to find out which files really changed :-P
20090918 20:16:17< Ivanovic> in general: yes
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20090918 20:36:04< CIA-62> mordante * r38689 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/listbox.cpp: Remove an unneeded include.
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20090918 21:10:08< shadowmaster> hi
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20090918 21:18:05< mordante> hi shadowmaster 
20090918 21:18:16< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen Sapient
20090918 21:18:16< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick Sapient last spoke 19h 7m ago.  19h 7m ago person left:
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20090918 21:28:10< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen kitty_
20090918 21:28:10< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick kitty_ last spoke 2d 3h ago.  2d 2h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: "bye"
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20090918 21:39:16< Ivanovic> ROFL, i love this thread... http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27136&start=0
20090918 21:39:16 * shadowmaster is writing a first implementation of "persistent" (e.g. saved in preferences) WML variables.
20090918 21:39:55< shadowmaster> ... it was very easy until I remembered that not all WML variables were represented as WML nodes, e.g. {VARIABLE foo "bar"} creates an attribute named foo with value "bar" :/
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20090918 21:42:03< Soliton> how's that a problem, that's how WML works?
20090918 21:43:09< shadowmaster> it's a problem because I had expected to have it ready for C&C today. :P
20090918 21:43:31< shadowmaster> It'll have to wait another day or two.
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20090918 21:46:10< silene> hi
20090918 21:46:57< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: do you plan to release 1.7.6 soon?
20090918 21:47:48< Ivanovic> i got no plans so far
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20090918 21:50:01< stikonas> zookeeper: is this bug https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?14341 in your specialization?
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20090918 21:54:47< zookeeper> stikonas, i have no idea. too little info.
20090918 21:55:29< stikonas> zookeeper: save games are attached for a reason, and I'm often on IRC :)
20090918 21:55:34< Soliton> "it's supposed to spawn some level 2 units but they just look like them and have level 1 stats for some reason. hopefully silene will finish the rewrite in lua soon."
20090918 21:56:40< zookeeper> err...it changes units' types by poking unit.type? goodness' sake.
20090918 21:56:42 * shadowmaster coughs
20090918 21:57:06< zookeeper> if i'm seeing this right, i have no idea how it could have been working up until now?
20090918 21:58:46< zookeeper> the problem spot being lines 332 (unstoring on 341)
20090918 21:59:27< zookeeper> i can try to come up with a fix later tonight, but gotta go afk for a while first
20090918 22:05:10< mordante> Ivanovic, I've seen no other reactions to your 1.8 mail, so what are the plans?
20090918 22:05:28< Ivanovic> mordante: world domination!
20090918 22:05:40< mordante> The resize issue is a bit nasty and I might need to rewrite quite a bit so like to know how much time I have
20090918 22:05:53< shadowmaster> how are you going to accomplish that, Ivanovic?
20090918 22:06:17< mordante> Ivanovic, boring, you need more ambition, control the entire universe would be a nice start ;-)
20090918 22:06:19< shadowmaster> we don't even have 2.0 yet... :P
20090918 22:07:16< Ivanovic> mordante: i see it in a more practical way
20090918 22:07:23< Ivanovic> one step after the other
20090918 22:07:31< Ivanovic> so first the world and *then* the universe
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20090918 22:11:10< mordante> but domination aside what are the plans for Wesnoth 1.8?
20090918 22:15:28< Aethaeryn> http://www.xs4all.nl/~roadie/wesnoth_units/1.0/tree_race.html
20090918 22:15:41< Aethaeryn> Interesting to see that just about every sprite has been replaced or significantly touched up
20090918 22:15:57< Aethaeryn> So we don't have 2.0 *yet*, but is it *that* far off?
20090918 22:15:58< fendrin> Crab_: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13158 is fixed, isn't it?
20090918 22:16:27< Crab_> fendrin: no.
20090918 22:16:42< Crab_> fendrin: it is talking about stdin/stdout interface
20090918 22:17:18< Ivanovic> mordante: no fixed plans yet, currently i am thinking about when to start the stringfreeze
20090918 22:17:35< Ivanovic> (might be in something like one week together with 1.7.6)
20090918 22:18:03< Ivanovic> and i'd like to have the freeze (feature and string) last for something like at least 4 to 6 weeks
20090918 22:28:02< mordante> Aethaeryn, depends on when you want to call it 2.0 ;-) but IMO we still have quite some work to do before calling it 2.0 (at least finishing my widget project)
20090918 22:28:57< mordante> I fear one week won't be enough to fix the resize issues, but also not sure how many weeks would suffice
20090918 22:29:12< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: i already listed what i think is required before things can be called 2.0
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20090918 22:31:26< Crab_> fendrin: there's certain issues with recall_pattern, so I'll not implement it, and implement simple 'recall if better than recruits' behavior.
20090918 22:31:48< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: link?
20090918 22:31:52< Aethaeryn> oh wait
20090918 22:31:56< Aethaeryn> it's the 2.0 thread...
20090918 22:32:00< Ivanovic> jupp
20090918 22:32:52< Crab_> fendrin: the issue is that recruitment_pattern is based on usage, which is a property of unit type. but, with recalls, the unit type is actually a composition of several unit types, with potentially different usages.
20090918 22:32:52< Ivanovic> and yes, we are getting closer to 2.0 but are not there yet
20090918 22:33:33< Aethaeryn> so it's basically up to mordante, the portraits/units (units are close) being finished, and next year's SoC
20090918 22:33:49< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and some more AI-related things, too
20090918 22:34:00< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Yes, but a lot of the focus of GSoC projects have been AI
20090918 22:34:25< Aethaeryn> If there's a good summer next year (code and art projects), it's conceivable that 1.10 would be marked 2.0 instead...
20090918 22:35:03< Aethaeryn> And if not, it's wholly probable that 1.10 would be the last 1.x release
20090918 22:35:13 * mordante wonders why people are so obsessed with version numbers...
20090918 22:35:24< Crab_> fendrin:  e.g., if we have a mage (usage="mixed fighter") with 55/60 xp, he can either become a White Mage (usage=healer) or Red Mage (usage="mixed fighter")
20090918 22:35:29< Aethaeryn> mordante: there's something psychological about it.
20090918 22:35:56< Aethaeryn> The power of the mind isn't very well understood, even today. Look at the placebo effect, for instance.
20090918 22:36:05< mordante> Aethaeryn, most obsessions are psychological ;-)
20090918 22:36:28< Aethaeryn> Just like taking a sugar pill makes sick people get somewhat better, calling something 2.0 *would* psychologically seem better than 1.x-forever
20090918 22:36:46< Aethaeryn> That is, of course, provided the major 1.x-line projects are finished.
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20090918 22:37:06< Aethaeryn> mordante: you should be honored that so much of getting to 2.0 depends on *your* project
20090918 22:37:13< mordante> Aethaeryn, depends I don't feel Windows 7 would be better as a previous version
20090918 22:37:19< fendrin> Crab_: I don't get it. The unit has only one type at a time and so only one usage.
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20090918 22:37:35< Aethaeryn> mordante: Corporations are different than open source projects.
20090918 22:37:40< Aethaeryn> There, the number is purely branding
20090918 22:37:48< Crab_> fendrin: it's almost leveled, so we have to consider its current stats and its potential future stats at the same time
20090918 22:37:58< Aethaeryn> which is why they go from 3.0 to 3.1 to 95 to 98 to ME/2000 to XP to Vista to 7
20090918 22:38:05< Aethaeryn> Try to come up with some logic to *that* system.
20090918 22:38:16< mordante> true but I don't think a high version number means a good product
20090918 22:38:25< fendrin> Crab_: That is much to complicated. Just ignore that issue.
20090918 22:38:55< mordante> I use several pre 1.0 software products here and still work as I want them
20090918 22:39:12< Aethaeryn> mordante: No, it does not. Some projects skip numbers just to seem as good as their competitors. I think SUSE is one that skipped 3 or so numbers.
20090918 22:39:13< mordante> Ivanovic, how important do we rate the resize problem
20090918 22:39:43< Aethaeryn> Add-ons on Wesnoth are a big offender. My add-ons aren't complete. I always make them 0.x to show that. Most addons I see on the server can be 3.0 and can be *worse* than my addons
20090918 22:39:52< Crab_> fendrin: this can't be ignored, since that is the main advantage of recalling 'close-to-level' units. E.g. the AI should figure that recalling 'almost leveled' spearman for 20 gp can be better than recruiting the 0-xp spearman for 14 gp.
20090918 22:40:19< Aethaeryn> My current product, Thunderstone, has 2.0's defined goal as "as good as mainline in balance and art" and it is entirely conceivable therefore that Thunderstone will *never* hit 2.0
20090918 22:41:01< Aethaeryn> Still, there's something good about marking that "this project *is* a lot better than it was years ago." Wesnoth 1.0's art *pales* in comparrison to what 1.7 has.
20090918 22:41:17< Crab_> fendrin: my vision is to deprecate 'usage' and 'recruitment_pattern' someday (= when deekay's recruitment will be ready)
20090918 22:41:23< Aethaeryn> Some of the best add-ons and campaigns would be impossible in 1.0 and there were only 4 campaigns in 1.0.
20090918 22:42:19< Aethaeryn> After the GUI's redone, playing Wesnoth 1.0 side-by-side Wesnoth 1.10 (or whatever it will be) will create a totally different experience, both in multiplayer and singleplayer.
20090918 22:42:29< fendrin> Crab_: Okay, so a ai will start to recall units from the list by itself or do I need to switch it on in a scenario?
20090918 22:42:40< Soliton> Crab_: just make up a nice algorithm how you think recalling would be best and only once someone isn't satisfied with it you need to think about settings to tweak it.
20090918 22:43:23< Crab_> fendrin: you should use default ai recruitment aspect. And, it's default, so no 'switching on' required.
20090918 22:43:26< mordante> Aethaeryn, and the problem with Ivanovic's list is that we might think of new cool features which are needed to label the project 2.0 ;-)
20090918 22:43:30< Aethaeryn> mordante: At *some* point it would be better to mark a 2.0, and I (in my completely unofficial and pointless) opinion more or less agree with what Ivanovic said. :P
20090918 22:43:40< Crab_> Soliton: yes, something like this.
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20090918 22:44:21< Aethaeryn> < mordante> Aethaeryn, and the problem with Ivanovic's list is that we might think of new cool features which are needed to label the project 2.0 <- Yes, but since most of 1.8 will be more than half way to 2.0 and most of the projects are more than half way done, I'd say that some really cool-but-hard-to-code features are best as 3.0 requirements.
20090918 22:45:02< Aethaeryn> The great part about Ivanovic's list is that it doesn't *add* anything, it merely mentions *finishing* things that have been todo for a while.
20090918 22:45:14< mordante> Aethaeryn, developers tend to work on what interests them so if somebody starts to work on something cool it might get on that list as well
20090918 22:45:21< Crab_> Soliton: but, more specifically, I'll make a quite simple algorithm for recalls (weighted (by current/levelup xp) sum of current-and-future combat scores). I don't want to touch recruitment a lot since I don't want to duplicate DKs work.
20090918 22:46:16< Aethaeryn> mordante: depends. If the developer starts to work on something cool really late in 1.0 and knows it might take many, many years, and everything else is complete, and the game is basically 100% different than 1.0 in most aspects... why *not* just start a 2.0 and have that cool feature in the middle of it?
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20090918 22:47:22< Aethaeryn> Imo, the most revolutionary changes to Wesnoth came around 1.3 and 1.4. Kitty changed the portrait style, you could add things to right click via WML, the drastic facelifts really started getting really big.
20090918 22:48:22< Aethaeryn> Most people think of 2.0 as some kind of total redo of Wesnoth, but it's a very gradually-improving project. Wesnoth *has* been totally redone, the real measure is *finishing* what has already been started thus far.
20090918 22:49:06< mordante> since IMO it looks silly to have a feature half done and then bump the major version number
20090918 22:49:40< Aethaeryn> Since *every* developer works at different paces, that attitude will ensure 2.0 *never* happens.
20090918 22:49:51 * shadowmaster rotates Aethaeryn 180 degrees
20090918 22:50:17< Crab_> and, btw, WHY human mage / human red mage / human archmage are 'mixed fighters' ?
20090918 22:50:45< shadowmaster> because they have ranged powah.
20090918 22:50:57< Crab_> shadowmaster: but their melee is not great
20090918 22:51:02< shadowmaster> yep.
20090918 22:51:08< Crab_> shadowmaster: 'archer' seems more logical to me...
20090918 22:51:09< Aethaeryn> Why is the Dark Adept NOT a mixed fighter? :P
20090918 22:51:16< shadowmaster> but I guess you don't want the AI to recruit only bowmen instead
20090918 22:51:47< Aethaeryn> mordante: I doubt Jetrel's sprites, kitty's portraits, your GUI, and Formula AI will finish at the same time, and I doubt that the people working on each project will merely pause working while waiting for the others to finish instead of moving onto something else.
20090918 22:52:09< Aethaeryn> mordante: Like it or not, there will be *no* point in Wesnoth when all the major features are fully done and none are in the works.
20090918 22:52:13< Crab_> Aethaeryn: Dark_Sorcerer is a mixed fighter :)
20090918 22:52:40< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I always thought of the mixed fighter as someone like the elvish fighter... someone who has melee and ranged both useable.
20090918 22:52:41< Soliton> Crab_: don't try to understand the usage settings. ;-)
20090918 22:53:03< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Making the usage settings logical would be great. If mixed fighter is only used for mages, perhaps make "mage"
20090918 22:53:39< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: you filthy dark oracle, don't scare mordante away.
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20090918 22:55:51< mordante> Aethaeryn, I don't expect that, that's why it might be hard to pick a good point for 2.0 ;-)
20090918 22:56:24-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 92 bugs, 243 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090918 22:56:34< Crab_> those are mixed fighters: ./orcs/Sovereign ./orcs/Assassin ./orcs/Slayer ./orcs/Leader ./orcs/Ruler ./elves/Avenger ./elves/Enchantress ./elves/Ranger ./elves/Sorceress ./elves/Sylph ./dwarves/Scout ./dwarves/Thunderer ./dwarves/Thunderguard ./merfolk/Siren ./merfolk/Hunter ./merfolk/Enchantress
20090918 22:56:37< Crab_>  ./merfolk/Netcaster ./merfolk/Entangler ./merfolk/Initiate ./merfolk/Spearman ./merfolk/Javelineer ./drakes/Flare ./drakes/Flameheart ./humans/Mage ./humans/Loyalist_Duelist ./humans/Woodsman_Ranger ./humans/Outlaw ./humans/Loyalist_Master_at_Arms ./humans/Mage_Great ./humans/Mage_Elder ./humans/Mage_Silver
20090918 22:56:39< Crab_>  ./humans/Outlaw_Fugitive ./humans/Mage_Arch. ./humans/Mage_Red ./trolls/Rocklobber ./trolls/Troll_Shaman ./undead/Necro_Ancient_Lich ./undead/Necromancer ./undead/Necro_Dark_Sorcerer 
20090918 22:56:48< shadowmaster> Crab_: use a pastebin. ;)
20090918 22:57:11 * shadowmaster scrolls his 80x25 terminal upwards
20090918 22:57:15< Aethaeryn> mordante: Eh, I guess we have differences in views about 2.0 then... I just see 2.0 happening at some point after the current projects finish and any new projects are too young/just starting. If timed right/luckily, you could hold those improvements to a 2.1/trunk branch while the 2.0 tag would only be the "completely finished" project.
20090918 22:57:31< Crab_> shadowmaster: sorry :)
20090918 22:58:21< Aethaeryn> Crab_: that's a very random mix indeed
20090918 22:58:45< Aethaeryn> A *lot* of those are better as archers...
20090918 22:58:51< Crab_> Aethaeryn: imo, both usages and recruitment pattern should be deprecated
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20090918 22:59:03< Aethaeryn> Ideally, yes.
20090918 22:59:16< Aethaeryn> If not, at least reformed to actually show their role.
20090918 22:59:18< shadowmaster> Crab_: why? recruitment_pattern seems to be useful
20090918 22:59:44< Crab_> shadowmaster: for what purpose ?
20090918 22:59:51< shadowmaster> I even have a test in the test scenario displaying how you can convince an AI to recruit only a particular unit type depending on ToDs...
20090918 23:00:10< Aethaeryn> You're not going to use a Thunderguard like a mage like a dwarvish scout like a duelist
20090918 23:00:25< Aethaeryn> *very* different units.
20090918 23:00:28< shadowmaster> (line 485)
20090918 23:00:42< Crab_> shadowmaster: ideally, if you want the ai to recruit a specific unit combination, formula ai recruitment strings are better.
20090918 23:00:55< shadowmaster> it worked pretty well when I wrote it (as a torture test for someone else's patch)
20090918 23:01:12< shadowmaster> ah well, formulas weren't available at that time :P
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20090918 23:01:28< Aethaeryn> Crab_: don't forget that it's used in the faction .cfg files. Though, imo, it's awfully unspecific.
20090918 23:01:51< Aethaeryn> Telling a faction how to recruit in MP based on formulas would be ideal
20090918 23:01:52< Crab_> shadowmaster: i.e. something like recruit_army( [ 'Elvish Fighter' -> 60, 'Elvish archer' -> 30, 'Mage' -> 10 ], self ) 
20090918 23:02:04< Aethaeryn> Because you can do things like percentages.
20090918 23:02:46< Aethaeryn> Crab_: submit a feature request?
20090918 23:02:49< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for MP factions, recruitment_pattern is a hack to hide some poor choices of the ai. as soon as DK finishes his recruitment, it should be used for MP, instead of recruitment_pattern
20090918 23:02:56< Crab_> Aethaeryn: FR for what ?
20090918 23:03:11< Aethaeryn> deprecating recruitment_pattern
20090918 23:03:24 * shadowmaster wonders if DK is recruiting fellow monkeys ^^
20090918 23:03:39< Aethaeryn> I hate using such an old/bad method for Thunderstone Era when I put together the factions.
20090918 23:03:59< Aethaeryn> Combine that with me not actually *knowing* what the ideal is. In fact, there's two ideals: turn 1 and every other time.
20090918 23:04:00< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: you haven't done the latter yet so don't complain so much :/
20090918 23:04:23< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: All the factions *are* together except the Dwarves. That's 4/5. I just don't have the *art* ready.
20090918 23:04:26< Crab_> Aethaeryn: no, better test DKs recruitment and bug him into fixing bugs, if any ;)
20090918 23:05:00< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for example, test that recruit_army thing :)
20090918 23:05:10< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Excluding art, I could make Thunderstone alpha-ready in a matter of hours.
20090918 23:05:21< shadowmaster> okay okay, I know I know.
20090918 23:05:55< Aethaeryn> Crab_: If you get Dragonking to change the behavior of how UMC factions choose recruits, I'll be the first to test it.
20090918 23:06:19< Aethaeryn> I do think that it should distinguish between turn 1 and the rest of the time, though.
20090918 23:06:29< Aethaeryn> Some units are great, just not as turn one picks.
20090918 23:07:14< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, there's a beta of his recruitment in trunk
20090918 23:07:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: you can use it via  {AI_SIMPLE_FORMULA_AI_EXPERIMENTAL_RECRUITMENT} macro
20090918 23:08:06< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Yes, but does it work with factionwhatever.cfg?
20090918 23:08:22< Aethaeryn> Iirc, I tried removing recruitment_pattern and the AI just didn't recruit at all.
20090918 23:08:32< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I'll test now
20090918 23:08:44< Aethaeryn> If I didn't need to give roles or recruitment patterns, that'd save a major step in the "matter of hours" it would take me to get my era's code to alpha.
20090918 23:08:45< mordante> I'm off night
20090918 23:08:48< Aethaeryn> A *major* step.
20090918 23:08:57< Crab_> note that it's known buggy with some maps, but works with others
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20090918 23:09:06< Crab_> it counter-recruits 
20090918 23:09:28< Crab_> get two sides, give them lots of gold and watch the first few turns
20090918 23:09:30< Aethaeryn> You don't know how bad I am at guessing some of the unit roles for some units, especially in a ranged-dominated era.
20090918 23:10:05< Aethaeryn> An AI that actually was able to judge... that'd be great, especially at finding some major conceptual flaws/imbalances.
20090918 23:10:32 * shadowmaster .
20090918 23:10:39< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it is still dumb at moving, but it recruits better than default ai.
20090918 23:11:11< Crab_> Aethaeryn: the famous 'we got water, recruit fish, we seek the enemy, he's on land, we move our fish to land' problem.
20090918 23:11:47< Aethaeryn> Crab_: That's simplified a bit with Thunderstone. The factions I designed do not have water units, but instead will get some kind of flier...
20090918 23:17:35< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, works
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20090918 23:17:47< Crab_> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m49c13bdf
20090918 23:18:50< Crab_> it has those issues: debug output (in debug mode, it outputs the labels of 'important terrain' on map, and a nice skull on top of 'want-to-kill' leader). and, it has problems on some maps (report to DK)
20090918 23:19:03< CIA-62> zookeeper * r38690 /trunk/data/multiplayer/scenarios/2p_Dark_Forecast.cfg: Possible hack fix for bug #14341.
20090918 23:19:05< Aethaeryn> Crab_: So all you need to do is replace the things in the [ai] tag with a macro that uses formula AI?
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20090918 23:19:15< Crab_> Aethaeryn: no
20090918 23:19:21< zookeeper> stikonas, Soliton, want to test that fix?
20090918 23:19:42< Crab_> Aethaeryn: what you should do is to 'add a line  {AI_SIMPLE_FORMULA_AI_EXPERIMENTAL_RECRUITMENT} ' somewhere to [ai]
20090918 23:19:48< Crab_> either in the scenario config, or in faction config
20090918 23:20:07< Aethaeryn> Right. But recruitment_pattern, and therefore giving units arbitrary roles, is thus rendered moot?
20090918 23:20:12< Crab_> yes
20090918 23:20:26< Crab_> by this, you're overriding only a specific aspect of ai, 'recruitment'
20090918 23:20:34< Aethaeryn> good
20090918 23:20:47< Aethaeryn> Right.
20090918 23:20:50< Crab_> so, you stay with default ai, only the recruitment changes.
20090918 23:21:06< Aethaeryn> The one other line I don't like is terrain_liked
20090918 23:21:16< Aethaeryn> Will Formula AI also eventually replace this?
20090918 23:21:29< Ivanovic> mordante: regarding the resize problem: since it is a rather bad crash i see it as rather critical
20090918 23:21:50< Crab_> Aethaeryn: are you aware of the purpose of terrain_liked ?
20090918 23:22:08< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I assume it tells the AI what terrain the faction's good on.
20090918 23:22:15< Crab_> Aethaeryn: wrong.
20090918 23:22:29< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it has nothing to do with ai.
20090918 23:22:43< Aethaeryn> Oh.
20090918 23:22:51< Aethaeryn> What's it do then?
20090918 23:23:07< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it allows to change the starting locations of sides to match sides with terrain
20090918 23:23:23< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for SP, or when starting position are hardcoded, it's not needed.
20090918 23:23:46< Crab_> both default recruitment and fai recruitment use actual defence_on_terrain values for units
20090918 23:25:55< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I still don't understand.
20090918 23:27:41< Crab_> Aethaeryn: if you play on a random map, wesnoth places sides in their 'preferred locations'
20090918 23:28:26< Crab_> Aethaeryn: to do that, it needs to know what terrain is preferred by each side
20090918 23:29:46< Crab_> Aethaeryn: i.e. to make the situation 'dwarves are placed near forest, rebels are placed near mountains' less probable than 'dwarves are placed near mountains, rebels are placed near forest'
20090918 23:33:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: that list of terrains can be generated either by hand by executing a certain fai magical formula.
20090918 23:34:30< Crab_> Aethaeryn: something ' for each of terrain types on map, for each of possible our units, get avg defense' and sort the resulting map by value, desc.
20090918 23:34:45< Crab_> and pick those terrains which scored high
20090918 23:35:13< Crab_> where avg. defense of sides units (probably only L1 is to be considered) is highest
20090918 23:35:51< Aethaeryn> Crab_: so it's for random maps?
20090918 23:35:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes
20090918 23:36:12< Aethaeryn> Wow, I can now officially put it at the very, very, VERY bottom of my priority list.
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20090918 23:41:00< Crab_> Aethaeryn: note that fai recruitment is very experimental, and it doesn't work on some maps (although it either works or not, and, if it works, it works all the time). Submit any bugs to DK :) For example, it doesn't work on NR:13:Showdown, but works on LoW:2:Hostile Mountains (I'll use it there, for one side - from start, for other - only after a specific event)
20090918 23:41:56< Crab_> and it ignores recruitment_pattern and villages_per_scout
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20090918 23:42:54< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Thunderstone Era is very experimental, and it probably is awful on some maps, is missing entire factions worth of sprites, and it isn't even published yet.
20090918 23:43:07< Aethaeryn> I *want* to use experimental stuff because it'll be stable by the time Thunderstone is actually ready.
20090918 23:43:16< Aethaeryn> And hopefully I can give some feedback along the way
20090918 23:43:23< Crab_> yes, that's good :)
20090918 23:43:25< Aethaeryn> the more experimental stuff, the better.
20090918 23:43:42< Aethaeryn> This is the phase to do it in, not when it is approaching v1.0
20090918 23:47:13< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I've read the wiki page about Thunderstone. I'm curious - how do you intend to do 'campaign with a worldmap' ?
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20090918 23:48:16< Crab_> Aethaeryn: a dedicated reenterable 'worldmap scenario' ? or something else ?
20090918 23:48:25< Aethaeryn> Yes, the former.
20090918 23:48:36< Aethaeryn> Though it may change based on events in the storyline of the MP campaign.
20090918 23:48:49< Aethaeryn> I kinda see it as semi-free, but not really.
20090918 23:49:24< Aethaeryn> You'd basically have a beginning, then you'd have many options, and then when you complete those, you'd move onto another major plot scenario (or scenarios)...
20090918 23:50:04< Crab_> I've got some post-1.8 ideas for making those 'MP campaign + worldmap' stuff work in a more 'free' way
20090918 23:50:17< Aethaeryn> So it'd be like 1 -> 2 -> 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 (in any order, some lead to another scenario directly after and so could be 6a -> 6b) -> 10 -> 11 -> 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 etc.
20090918 23:50:52< Aethaeryn> Of course, this would be a lot more freeform than any campaign before, but wouldn't be truly free: that'd only be done if it were 100% random generated.
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20090918 23:51:15< Aethaeryn> I do intend for it to take months if you actually get together 2 friends to play it with you.
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20090918 23:57:45< Crab_> Aethaeryn: also, you might want to use\modify ai testing scripts for first stage of side balancing (i.e., if a certain faction wins 95% against another, or if some unit is not recruited at all, then something is not good)
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 19 00:00:57 2009