--- Log opened Wed Sep 30 00:00:01 2009
20090930 00:01:32< Sapient> ah, I bet silene left because he knew I was going to ask lots of questions about Big-O ;)
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20090930 00:02:33< Shadow_Master> pity.
20090930 00:02:40< Shadow_Master> I had a reply for his forum post :P
20090930 00:02:59< Sapient> although algorithm theory is a fun area, I'm not one for mathematical proofs and such
20090930 00:03:37< Sapient> Shadow_Master: you mean the one in WML Workshop about terrain filtering?
20090930 00:04:01< Shadow_Master> no, the one in the hidden forum about spambots
20090930 00:05:06< Sapient> I am trying to figure out how silene calculated O((n^2+t)*log(n)) for terrain_filter::get_locations()
20090930 00:05:27< Sapient> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=387344#p387344
20090930 00:05:51< Shadow_Master> due to a lack of proper book training, I have no clue about algorithm complexity stuff :P
20090930 00:06:52< Sapient> there are a couple of obvious inefficiencies, like the converting sets into vectors, and the way empty filter containing [not] is handled using set difference instead of a negation of the universal set
20090930 00:07:41< Sapient> but that first issue would be difficult to fix without making a lot of code use sets of location instead of vectors of location
20090930 00:08:41< Sapient> and the second issue seemed like premature optimization since creating a collection of all x,y wasn't likely to be a bottleneck
20090930 00:09:42< Sapient> but I do think my overall approach was a very sensible one with respect to efficienc
20090930 00:11:07< Sapient> so I was surprised to be ranked so poorly on the O-notation
20090930 00:11:49< Sapient> Crab seems like a scholar so maybe he could tell me ;)
20090930 00:12:39 * Crab_ has to read the whole post before that :)
20090930 00:12:43 * Crab_ is reading..
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20090930 00:20:15< Sapient> in the case of getlocations (x,y,radius=a,b,c), the algorithm should only test the filter upon x,y (O(1)) and then grow the result by a quantity of c, without further computations required
20090930 00:23:41< Crab_> growing the result by radius C is not that simple
20090930 00:24:04< Crab_> see get_tiles_radius in src/pathutils.cpp 
20090930 00:24:31< Sapient> yeah, I wasn't sure if he was including get_tiles_radius as part of the computational complexity
20090930 00:24:36< Crab_> it means testing O(c^2) hexes, and each test is logarithmic.
20090930 00:25:17< Sapient> I agree that get_tiles_radius does look more complex than optimal
20090930 00:25:58< Crab_> yes, since the topology of the map is well-known, it can be simpler..
20090930 00:29:07< Sapient> but no terrain filter is being applied upon those c^2 hexes, so if the terrain filter is considered the only expensive operation then the big-O of get_tiles_radius is irrelevant
20090930 00:30:38< Sapient> it also uses a caching mechanism to prevent redundant filtering when [filter_radius] is involved
20090930 00:30:39< Crab_> yes, if that radius is the last operation (no further terrain filters on result) it should be not relevant to terrain_filter's complexity.
20090930 00:34:47< Crab_> but, why we consider 'terrain filter' to be the only expensive operation ?
20090930 00:35:13< Crab_> shouldn't we try to count O() of operations on location sets instead ?
20090930 00:39:20< Sapient> sure, but map sizes are limited so there will always be an upper bound on location set operation
20090930 00:39:41< Sapient> whereas the complexity of a location filter SLF is hypothetically infinite
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20090930 00:40:45< Crab_> it depends on what you consider the 'input' to slf - e.g. '1 MAP' or 'N*M locations'
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20090930 00:42:41< Crab_> and, for example, if we switch the implementation to terrain_filter to use something else from std::vector and std::set for it's operations - for example, if we use a content-addressable-table representing the entire map, the complexity will change.
20090930 00:43:54< Crab_> since, for example,  then it'd be possible to check "is the hex present in table?" in O(1), instead of O(log(n)) for std::set.
20090930 00:46:02< Sapient> I'm definitely in favor of improving the efficiency of our location operations, where reasonable to do so, even though it's only a hypothetical bottleneck at this point
20090930 00:46:28< Crab_> are SLFs really a bottleneck now ?
20090930 00:47:15< Sapient> I haven't measured performance myself in Wesnoth, but Mordante did tell me that terrain filtering should be considered expensive
20090930 00:48:00< Crab_> I've seen this only once, in a very specific circumstances (ai 'avoid' aspect with a long SLF, multiplied by the number of times ai recalculates it's move maps - it's done after each move/attack ) )
20090930 00:48:51< Sapient> slowness was based on observed issues with TerrainWML
20090930 00:49:06< Crab_> was it profiled ?
20090930 00:50:02< mordante> mog did some profiling and optimizations
20090930 00:50:14< mordante> but there are just a lot of rules to parse
20090930 00:50:55< Crab_> sometimes profiling wields unexpected bottlenecks... I.e. I once spotted that 5-10% ai turn tume was spent just getting 'is the unit slowed now?' status thing (which, at that time, required std::string constructions and std::map lookups)
20090930 00:51:15< Crab_> mordante: is there any graphs/results of that profiling posted ?
20090930 00:51:36< Sapient> SLF can contain SUF, and SUF can contain [filter_wml] which writes the entire unit into a config for comparison
20090930 00:51:38< mordante> no
20090930 00:52:33< Crab_> than doing that graphs on some often-used and suspected-for-inefficiency SLFs is a good thing to start.
20090930 00:53:10< mordante> don't expect me to look into it any time soon, have enough to do with the gui ;-)
20090930 00:53:12< Crab_> I can do it and post the graphs, if someone posts me the WML  snippets to be tested
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20090930 00:54:05< Sapient> TerrainWML doesn't use SLF, it uses terrain pattern matching strings, which are also used by SLF
20090930 00:55:22< Crab_> Sapient: then, we can try to take that getlocations (x,y,radius=a,b,c) thing and see what contributes to its run time.
20090930 00:55:23< Sapient> Mordante advised me that parsing the terrain pattern matching strings should be considered a fairly expensive operation, and to cache the result for reuse
20090930 00:56:49< mordante> the wildcard matching is expensive at least that was the bottleneck
20090930 00:58:04< mordante> I'm off night
20090930 00:58:18< Crab_> night, mordante
20090930 00:58:29< Sapient> so it seemed wise to treat SLF as arbitrarily complex and eliminate unnecessary calls to matches_filter_internal
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20090930 00:59:30< Sapient> although in practice, I've never experienced slowness due to SLF processing
20090930 00:59:43< Sapient> with the AI changes it might be the first time
20090930 00:59:45< Crab_> Sapient: yes, a viable approach. but, then, you should measure complexity in number of SLF calls
20090930 01:00:03< Shadow_Master> I haven't noticed SLF to be slow in event filters
20090930 01:00:30< Shadow_Master> (... or maybe I just have too much processor power)
20090930 01:01:43< Crab_> Sapient: no, it was just a very specific combination of several different things - like unnecessarily very long SLF (related to map specifics), unnecessarily large number of evaluations per turn (related to ai implementation issues)
20090930 01:03:42< Crab_> I fixes some of those things since then, so that particular slowness disappeared
20090930 01:04:03< Sapient> ah, ok
20090930 01:04:56< Crab_> wesbot: log 38101
20090930 01:04:57< wesbot> crab * r38101 : changes to targeting phase to discard avoided locations earlier
20090930 01:05:00< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=38101
20090930 01:05:40< Shadow_Master> is there any mainline scenario providing an example of how to tell a side's AI to ignore other side when choosing targets?
20090930 01:06:19< Shadow_Master> with formulas, of course
20090930 01:07:15< Crab_> Shadow_Master: what specifically do you want to do ? 1) to make the ai never attack side N or  2) to make the ai ignore side N during 'strategic long-range movement' phase ?
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20090930 01:16:15< Shadow_Master> Crab_: arrr.
20090930 01:16:31< Shadow_Master> I guess (1), since (2) sounds too complicated for my poor little head
20090930 01:18:02< Crab_> (2) is about the following behavior: if the ai's unit has no enemies near, ai tries to move it towards some target. by default, enemy villages (if village_value>0) and enemy leader (if leader_value>0) are targets, plus some targets are added in specific circumstances.
20090930 01:19:37< Crab_> (1) is hard to do atm, but I can easily add a fix to allow to specify a SUF of 'units ignored during attack selection'.
20090930 01:20:56< Crab_> (this will still allow ai to attack them, if the attack is explicitly ordered - via a formula, or via a 'oops, we're ambushed' or via 'oops, our leader is in trouble')
20090930 01:21:33< Crab_> but, the ai will ignore that units during combat analysis.
20090930 01:21:34< Shadow_Master> that's fine.
20090930 01:21:45< Shadow_Master> but there are any examples of this in mainline? :P
20090930 01:22:17< Soliton> it seems silly that an ambush forces the ai to attack the ambusher even if there are other attacks possible, btw.
20090930 01:22:44 * Shadow_Master holds a sign reading 'newbie'
20090930 01:23:15< Crab_> Soliton: that's a problem with default_ai, and cannot be easily changed without side effects. rca-based ai doesn't have such problem.
20090930 01:23:24< Crab_> Shadow_Master: well, this requires C++ changes (minor ones), so there's no examples so far.
20090930 01:23:30< Shadow_Master> aahhh :(
20090930 01:24:09< Soliton> i'm pretty sure the default ai didn't always do that.
20090930 01:24:23< Soliton> good to know about rca.
20090930 01:24:27< Crab_> Soliton: i guess that it was introduced as a bugfix
20090930 01:24:41< Shadow_Master> what does RCA stand for btw?
20090930 01:24:42< Soliton> yeah, probably.
20090930 01:24:55< Soliton> ridiculously complicated ai.
20090930 01:26:45< Shadow_Master> where's store_unit_type documented in the wiki, btw?
20090930 01:26:48< Crab_> Shadow_Master: after I implement C++ support for that SUF, it'll be possible to modify the 'units to ignore during attack selection' both at scenario start and in-flight, using [modify_ai] tag, e.g. from events..
20090930 01:27:12< Shadow_Master> I can't find it in the tags sidebar or in http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/AlphabeticalWML (which i sure hope someone is maintaining....)
20090930 01:27:33< Sapient> Shadow_Master: ah, I forgot to add it
20090930 01:27:51< Shadow_Master> bad, bad Sapient 
20090930 01:27:54< Crab_> RCA is ai paradigm which works by Registering Candidate Actions, evaluating them all, and executing the best one.
20090930 01:28:03 * Sapient throws a sugar packet at himself
20090930 01:28:25< Shadow_Master> Crab_: where's modify_ai documented?
20090930 01:29:16< Crab_> Shadow_Master: nowhere so far, will be documented before 1.8 release. Used in LoW 2, LoW 3
20090930 01:30:18< Shadow_Master> okay, but is it usable right now, or is its interface going to change?
20090930 01:30:42< Shadow_Master> (and if it is not going to change, then um, why isn't it documented yet?)
20090930 01:32:02< Crab_> Shadow_Master: it's usable right now, the interface will be expanded, but in the a backward-compliant way.
20090930 01:32:50< Crab_> Shadow_Master: what do you want first - documentation on modify_ai or a way to make 'ai ignore some units during attack selection'  ?
20090930 01:33:41< Shadow_Master> I believe the latter :P
20090930 01:33:45< Crab_> ok
20090930 01:34:33 * Shadow_Master is supposed to fix a bunch of AI issues in his campaign for 1.8
20090930 01:34:57< Shadow_Master> (UMC) not sure whether I'll finish learning about the new AI before my deadline hits me on my head though.
20090930 01:35:04< Crab_> yes, I've played IftU (finished 1st part only)
20090930 01:38:42< Crab_> question: empty SUF matches anything ?
20090930 01:39:49< Shadow_Master> usually, yes
20090930 01:40:08< Shadow_Master> s/usually/in all places I can remember right now/
20090930 01:40:22< Sapient> it matches any Unit, not any Thing ;)
20090930 01:40:45< Crab_> heh )
20090930 01:40:46< Sapient> the exception being units on the recall list, in some situations
20090930 01:40:47< Shadow_Master> Sapient: I think I'll postpone bug #13365
20090930 01:40:56< Shadow_Master> bug, FR, whatever
20090930 01:41:47< Crab_> Shadow_Master: then, I'll add some syntax like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m34b0b11d (which should be put into a specific place, I'll show where). looks ok ?
20090930 01:42:10< Sapient> e.g. [have_unit] [/have_unit] would not check the recall list
20090930 01:42:46< Sapient> but [store_unit] [filter][/filter] would
20090930 01:43:13< Shadow_Master> I guess AIs don't need to search attack targets that do not exist on the map yet, eh? :P
20090930 01:43:46< Sapient> pretty hard to attack someone's recall list I guess :)
20090930 01:43:46< Shadow_Master> Crab_: looks nice
20090930 01:44:03< Crab_> Sapient: it's possible to counter-recruit to enemy recall list, through :)
20090930 01:44:24< Sapient> that would be a sneaky AI indeed
20090930 01:44:56< Crab_> current default ai already counter-recruits to enemy recruit list, so, it's fairly easy to modify it to check the recall_list, too.
20090930 01:45:20< Sapient> "hmm.. he hasn't leveled up any healers yet. better recruit lots of poison"
20090930 01:53:33< Crab_> Sapient: 'there is a lot of poisoners in the next scenario, we should try to not allow him to levelup healers' is even more sneaky )
20090930 01:55:54< Sapient> ha, I just though of a reall sneaky AI
20090930 01:56:20< Sapient> have it act very dumb for the first few turns, so the player thinks the AI settings are easy
20090930 01:56:40< Crab_> Sapient: dwarves in LoW 2 don't recruit anything for the 1st turns :)
20090930 01:57:03< Crab_> Sapient: they only start recruiting after someone steps on their land
20090930 01:57:29< Sapient> ah right, I'll have to try that campaign again with the improved AI
20090930 01:57:35< Sapient> I remember the dwarves dies on me
20090930 01:58:01< Crab_> no, not much improvement expect the scenarios 2,3 were changed a bit
20090930 01:58:20< Crab_> LoW 2 even uses DKs new formula-based recruitment
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20090930 03:03:28< CIA-62> crab * r38909 /trunk/src/ai/testing/ (aspect_attacks.cpp aspect_attacks.hpp): improvement to 'attacks'' aspect: filtering of allowed attackers/defenders via [filter_own] and [filter_enemy]
20090930 03:03:37< CIA-62> crab * r38910 /trunk/data/ai/scenarios/ (2 files in 2 dirs): AI Arena test case for filtering of allowed attackers/defenders via [filter_own] and [filter_enemy]
20090930 03:03:42< CIA-62> crab * r38911 /trunk/changelog: changelog entry for filtering of allowed attackers/defenders via [filter_own] and [filter_enemy]
20090930 03:04:39< Crab_> Shadow_Master: ^ see data/ai/scenarios/ai_arena_small/0004-filtered_combat.cfg for example of in-flight modification of allowed attackers/defenders SUF.
20090930 03:04:47< Shadow_Master> good
20090930 03:07:21< Crab_> Shadow_Master: and some theory: AI includes components, such as stages - parts of ai turn sequence; goals - ai goals;  and aspects - configurable parameters (which might have several aspects depending on time-of-day, turns). there's an aspect named 'attacks' which is used to get a list of attacks. There's a default c++ based implementation of that aspect. 
20090930 03:08:34< Crab_> what that [modify_ai] does, is adds a new unnamed (I've given no id) facet to the 'attacks' aspect, which includes a [facet] config, which has those parameters which I wish to pass to that C++ implementation of 'attacks' aspect.
20090930 03:08:50< Crab_> the effects can be seen in-game using :inspect 
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20090930 03:13:41< Crab_> Shadow_Master: there's a small bug, I'll fix in a few minutes (the setting doesn't persist in saves)
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20090930 03:27:56< Sirp> hi happygrue 
20090930 03:28:15< happygrue> hello Sirp
20090930 03:28:23< happygrue> good news and bad news:
20090930 03:28:59< happygrue> I found a site that has tigres and euphrates playable online... but it's not free
20090930 03:29:08< happygrue> ah well.
20090930 03:29:18< CIA-62> crab * r38912 /trunk/src/ai/testing/ (aspect_attacks.cpp aspect_attacks.hpp): fixed to_config serialization of [filter_own] and [filter_enemy]my]
20090930 03:29:44< Sirp> happygrue: ahhhh. :-/
20090930 03:29:58< Sirp> happygrue: and asobrain is down right now. :-/
20090930 03:30:05< happygrue> yeah, I noticed that
20090930 03:30:11< happygrue> I was going to play settlers with my sister
20090930 03:30:27< Sirp> happygrue: xplorers.nl has it. The same game as on asobrain
20090930 03:30:41< Sirp> the site is in Dutch, but when you get to the game it's in English
20090930 03:30:48< happygrue> good to know
20090930 03:31:06< Crab_> Shadow_Master: ^ fixed now. if you wish to try that AI arena test case, do the following: 1) launch ./wesnoth -t ai_arena_small -d 2) use :inspect to review the value of 'attacks' aspect of team 2.   3) close inspection window, right-click on map and select 'select another test', select 'filtered combat test' 
20090930 03:31:08< Crab_> 4) use :inspect again to view the new value of attack aspect of side 2   5) press end turn and watch that only allowed attack takes place, and other units just move somewhere.
20090930 03:32:09< Sirp> happygrue: I am halfway tempted to implement my own Tigris & Euphrates....though I generally like to implement my own ideas rather than someone else's.
20090930 03:32:45< happygrue> both thoughts are understandable :)
20090930 03:36:44< happygrue> Sirp: I haven't actually used Vassal, but apparently there is an implentation of it there
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20090930 05:43:15< Soliton> throw from a constructor means the destructor is not called?
20090930 05:46:36< mordocai> Shadow_Master: Sorry, i was at work + school. Yeah, i have a forum account. Same name as this.
20090930 05:48:26< Sirp> Soliton: correct.
20090930 05:48:47< Sirp> Soliton: throw  from a constructor and the object never was.
20090930 05:49:36< Sirp> Soliton: however destructors of members that have been constructed are called.
20090930 05:50:06< Soliton> the problem is a throw-or-not call from a constructor. if it comes back i don't want to delete if it doesn't...
20090930 05:50:40< Sirp> Soliton: not sure what you mean by that....
20090930 05:51:19< Soliton> Sirp: it's about replay errors where the user is asked to continue or not. if he wants to continue there is no exception thrown.
20090930 05:52:08< Soliton> atm it's a bit different but there is already the case of not throwing an exception and simply returning.
20090930 05:52:42< Soliton> which probably makes wesnoth crash in a couple of places that are very rarely executed.
20090930 05:54:18< Soliton> and the attack constructor is one place where a replay error is thrown.
20090930 05:54:45< Soliton> (or not)
20090930 05:56:29< Soliton> hmm, double delete is not a problem is it?
20090930 05:57:20< Soliton> i mean when setting the pointer to NULL after delete.
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20090930 06:03:20< Soliton> looks like construction is pretty much all that is done with an attach object anyway.
20090930 06:06:45< Sirp> Soliton: I think I'd have to look at the code in more detail to tell...I'm still not sure what your problem is.
20090930 06:07:06< Sirp> Soliton: and if you set a pointer to NULL and then delete it again it will be fine since delete NULL is a no-op
20090930 06:07:18< Sirp> however your description of the code is making me a little nervous now....it sounds complicated. :)
20090930 06:08:50< Soliton> Sirp: the problem is around src/actions.cpp:1644
20090930 06:10:05< Soliton> i think best might be to eliminate the bc_ pointer. i'm not sure why it needs to be done that way.
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20090930 06:15:41< Soliton> but it seems to me like the attack object is useless once constructed, so it shouldn't be a problem to just delete bc_ at the end of the constructor either way.
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20090930 10:52:43< CIA-62> caslav_ilic * r38913 /branches/resources/cartography-tools/great-continent.xcf: Moved 'Bitter Swamp' label to where it really is on in-game image.
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20090930 12:22:15< Nayela> Morning everyone
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20090930 16:56:24-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.6, announcing soon | string/feature freeze active! | 89 bugs, 237 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090930 19:29:40< mordante> servus
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20090930 19:52:12< grzywacz> hey mordante 
20090930 19:52:18< mordante> hi grzywacz 
20090930 19:55:26 * Ivanovic does the "one more s***ing exam done"-dance
20090930 19:55:29< Ivanovic> hi grzywacz and mordante
20090930 19:55:51< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20090930 19:56:05< mordante> Ivanovic, how did your exam today go?
20090930 19:56:20< Ivanovic> i passed (as barely as passing is possible...)
20090930 19:56:28< mordante> :-)
20090930 19:56:37< Ivanovic> and yeah, i am 100% satisfied with this since i can now competely forget this stuff...
20090930 19:56:38< Ivanovic> ;)
20090930 19:56:47< mordante> even better
20090930 19:56:59-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090930 19:58:05< Ivanovic> you know, a lecture titled "efficient algorithms" (theoretical computer science!) is a strange thing if the most important part are not the algorithms but the single definitions and proofs
20090930 19:58:59< Ivanovic> (where i personally think that the algos and the ideas in them are a great thing but the definitions and proofs tend to s***)
20090930 19:59:31 * mordante nods
20090930 20:00:21< Ivanovic> especially if you got a 300 pages script (with algorithms for many problems, lots of them have something to do with graphs) and in there you see several graphs used/worked on as worst case examples
20090930 20:00:30< Ivanovic> those are only described in text, not as graphics
20090930 20:01:02< Ivanovic> beside this the script was something along the lines of "definition-proof-definition-proof...."
20090930 20:02:38< Ivanovic> so my tasks for this evening:
20090930 20:02:42< Ivanovic> 1) get some food
20090930 20:02:49< Ivanovic> 2) make sure that 1.7.6 is announed
20090930 20:03:01< Ivanovic> 3) get drunk and forget almost everything about that lecture...
20090930 20:03:15< Ivanovic> i think i should stick to this order, what do you think?
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20090930 20:06:44< mordante> well you could skip 1, that makes 3 much easier ;-)
20090930 20:06:46< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: I'd suggest you get stabbed in head, but only because I've read to much of this webcomic's archive today: http://www.nuklearpower.com/8-bit-theater/ :P
20090930 20:06:59< loonycyborg> s/to/too
20090930 20:18:10< Sapient> ah, brian clevinger. I like that comic as well
20090930 20:19:09 * Nayela is away: Dinner times
20090930 20:20:02< Sapient> Ivanovic: well, if you change the order of 2 and 3 that could make a very interesting announcement
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20090930 20:36:02< mordante> skipping 1 might make it even more interesting ;-)
20090930 20:40:53< Ivanovic> objective 1: accomplished
20090930 20:41:10< Ivanovic> mordante: nah, it would not
20090930 20:41:30< Ivanovic> i think objective 3 is going to be solved be drinking "some" (large) zombies...
20090930 20:41:45< mordante> of course not you can't skip 1 after accomplishing it ;-P
20090930 20:41:57< Ivanovic> mordante: i am speaking more in general
20090930 20:42:10< Ivanovic> with zombies it makes not much difference
20090930 20:42:31< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: uhm, after getting stabbed in the head announcing will be difficult...
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20090930 20:42:59< Ivanovic> Sapient: uhm, the previous announcement was already done after two zombies
20090930 20:43:04< Ivanovic> Sapient: as you see, even when (slightly) drunk i am still able to copy&paste some announcement text
20090930 20:43:05< Ivanovic> ;)
20090930 20:43:26< Ivanovic> Sapient: i assume that you and yogihh have done the room booking stuff for the summit, right?
20090930 20:43:45< Sapient> I haven't.
20090930 20:43:54< Ivanovic> Sapient: only one of you two has to
20090930 20:44:02< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: But after that you even wouldn't want to do that thus solving the problem :P
20090930 20:44:02< Ivanovic> (since it is a room for two)
20090930 20:44:26< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: the secondary problem is that there *is* a release that has to be announced
20090930 20:44:44< Ivanovic> or do you volunteer to do this task tonight?
20090930 20:44:51< mordante> what is this zombie drink?
20090930 20:44:54< Sapient> actually I still need to book my flight
20090930 20:45:03< Ivanovic> then i can skip objective 2 and directly head over to 3
20090930 20:45:10< Ivanovic> mordante: a cocktail
20090930 20:45:14< Ivanovic> consisting mainly of rum
20090930 20:45:19< Ivanovic> mixed with more rum
20090930 20:45:25< Ivanovic> finished with some additional rum
20090930 20:45:47< Ivanovic> plus some cherry stuff to make it red and some orange juice for the additional taste
20090930 20:45:50< mordante> three different flavours of rum?
20090930 20:45:54< Ivanovic> add some ice and you are done
20090930 20:45:58< Ivanovic> mordante: jupp
20090930 20:46:22< Ivanovic> and the quantities of each flavour of rum is larger than the quantitiy of all the non alcoholic ingredients
20090930 20:46:30< Shadow_Master> wesbot: seen crimson_penguin
20090930 20:46:32< wesbot> Shadow_Master: The person with the nick crimson_penguin last spoke 1d 4h ago.  5h 10m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
20090930 20:46:52< Ivanovic> so in 0.5l zombie you probably have about 0.3l rum
20090930 20:46:54< Sapient> ah, so what rum do you use?
20090930 20:47:15< Ivanovic> white rum, brown rum and strong brown rum
20090930 20:47:35< Sapient> and you should call it a walking corpse, not a zombie :p
20090930 20:47:36< Ivanovic> (there are dozens of recipes how to make a zombie)
20090930 20:47:36< mordante> ah I found a recipe :-)
20090930 20:48:24< Sapient> or a strong one would be Soulless
20090930 20:48:30< mordante> :-)
20090930 20:48:50< Ivanovic> Sapient: hmm, a lvl2 WC would be needed to describe this one
20090930 20:49:19< Ivanovic> though a lvl3 is probably more fitting
20090930 20:50:07< Ivanovic> (that is: the drink for sure has the ability "plague" sicne after "enough" of those drinks you will be a zombie when waking up again the next day)
20090930 20:50:37 * Shadow_Master tries to figure how to tell the 'install' target to install a particular file/dir with autotools
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20090930 20:52:06< grzywacz> With `configure` it's just a matter of using --prefix ;)
20090930 20:53:05< Ivanovic> grzywacz: ehm, i think Shadow_Master does not want to set a prefix but just install some very specific files instead of "everything as usual"
20090930 20:53:25< grzywacz> Erm. Maybe you're right. :)
20090930 20:53:34< Shadow_Master> rather, how to define what "everything as usual" is with an autotools recipe
20090930 20:56:09< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: voodo
20090930 20:56:10< Ivanovic> o
20090930 20:56:10< Shadow_Master> ah, it wasn't too difficult
20090930 20:58:34< Ivanovic> Soliton: i am announcing stuff now, so please make sure that the mp server for the new version is running
20090930 21:00:52< Soliton> Ivanovic: should be done.
20090930 21:01:52< Ivanovic> okay
20090930 21:06:11< Ivanovic> 1.7.6 announcement forum post: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27302
20090930 21:07:00< Shadow_Master> may I ad a little thing that I never put in RELEASE_NOTES?
20090930 21:07:01< mordante> you love to point out it might be more buggy as 1.6 ;-)
20090930 21:07:05< Shadow_Master> *add
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20090930 21:08:17< CIA-62> ivanovic * r38914 /trunk/ (RELEASE_NOTES changelog players_changelog): cleanup release notes and make version in changelogs uniform
20090930 21:08:34< Ivanovic> mordante: of course i do
20090930 21:09:39< mordante> well it has more bugs, playing DM for a few minutes revealed two bugs :-(
20090930 21:10:03< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: ^^
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20090930 21:11:31< Ivanovic> mordante: and now you understand the marker, don't you?
20090930 21:11:33< Ivanovic> ^^
20090930 21:11:53< mordante> unfortunately yes
20090930 21:12:27< boucman> mordante: seen your bug, no idea when i'll be able to fix it thoug.
20090930 21:12:31< boucman> i'll do it asap
20090930 21:12:54< mordante> boucman, ok, not sure how recent it is, haven't played much lately
20090930 21:13:08< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: I added a little thing that I never put in RELEASE_NOTES
20090930 21:14:10< Ivanovic> updated the frontpage
20090930 21:14:22< Ivanovic> shame on you, Shadow_Master!
20090930 21:14:51< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: s/There are, naturally, untranslated./They are, naturally, untranslated.
20090930 21:15:04< Shadow_Master> oh wow.
20090930 21:16:23< Ivanovic> ???
20090930 21:17:25 * mordante likes the implied idea of easter eggs ;-)
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20090930 21:17:55< Zarel> And now, to say something completely unrelated to Wesnoth development!
20090930 21:17:58< Ivanovic> mordante: the new lobby somehow is an easter egg...
20090930 21:18:05< Zarel> Does anyone know any Mac software that uses QuesoGLC?
20090930 21:18:14< Zarel> O
20090930 21:19:07< Zarel> I'm trying to figure out if a bug in Warzone is from a bug in QuesoGLC, and the easiest way to test that is to see if other QuesoGLC software has the same problems, but apparently Warzone is like the only QuesoGLC software that works on the Mac, which makes it kinda hard to test.
20090930 21:19:15< mordante> Ivanovic, guess that means it's zombie slaying time for you, good luck ;-)
20090930 21:19:30< Ivanovic> i think i will just stick to freeing cuba
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20090930 21:20:27< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: means I fixed the typo. I'm just surprised that I'm making the generic there/their/they're | its/it's typos lately
20090930 21:22:38< ancestral> https://gna.org/bugs/?13878 is not resolved, yet says it was fixed…?
20090930 21:22:39< mordante> Zarel, no idea, maybe you can ask crimson_penguin or sirp when they're around
20090930 21:23:38< ancestral> There's no patch or reason stating how it was fixed
20090930 21:23:45< Shadow_Master> ancestral: silene may know what's up with that bug
20090930 21:23:48< mordante> ancestral, best post a remark in the bug report, silene should get an email about it
20090930 21:23:57< ancestral> Alright
20090930 21:23:57< mordante> or wait for him to show up here
20090930 21:24:03< Shadow_Master> it looks like he assigned it to himself while marking it as fixed and closed
20090930 21:24:54< Shadow_Master> (some people just forget to tmention the bug number in the changelog or commit message) ^^
20090930 21:26:21< Zarel> D:
20090930 21:26:30< ancestral> If a change was made yesterday would it have been incorporated into 1.7.6?
20090930 21:26:51< ancestral> Perhaps I need to build from trunk
20090930 21:26:51< Shadow_Master> no
20090930 21:26:55< mordante> ancestral, no
20090930 21:27:27< Soliton> if the bug was closed the fix should be in 1.7.6.
20090930 21:27:50< mordante> yup, but silene shows up most evenings, then we can ask
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20090930 21:33:38< silene> hi
20090930 21:34:24< mordante> hi silene 
20090930 21:35:44< Sapient> hi silene
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20090930 22:12:16< mordante> I'm off night
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20090930 22:30:36< CIA-62> alink * r38915 /trunk/data/themes/default.cfg: Fix bug #14406 : "redraw glitches of weapon info when using small-gui (and probably with tiny-gui too)"
20090930 22:39:09< Ivanovic> alink: it would be great if you could test your theming changes with smallgui yourself (just run with "wesnoth --smallgui -r 800x480")
20090930 22:41:02< alink> yeah, i know, I just didn't expected such difference. Theme stuff surprises me every time 
20090930 22:42:08< ancestral> silene: In regards to #13878 with languages - can you try something for me?
20090930 22:43:18< alink> Ivanovic: and btw IIRC I did the initial implementation of the --smallgui parameter ;-)
20090930 22:44:13< Ivanovic> alink: ah, one *huge* difference was/is font stuff
20090930 22:44:23< ancestral> silene: 1.7.6 incorporates your patch?
20090930 22:44:45< Ivanovic> alink: i just started with --smallgui for a short test and the defense stuff was no good...
20090930 22:45:21< alink> i was committing a fix when we started to talk :-)
20090930 22:45:27< Ivanovic> great
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20090930 22:46:37< CIA-62> alink * r38916 /trunk/data/themes/default.cfg: remove new sidebar terrain def% from small-gui
20090930 22:46:42< silene> ancestral: yes, 1.7.3 too
20090930 22:47:04< alink> i will probably do the same for tiny-gui but i need a tiny-gui build to test it
20090930 22:47:05< Ivanovic> (that is every change in the right pane at least has the potential to cause breakage in some special cases with smallgui (eg the elvish sylph or shyde, those are the real cornercases IIRC))
20090930 22:47:21< ancestral> silene: What OS are you running?
20090930 22:47:27< silene> linux
20090930 22:47:40< alink> Ivanovic: shyde is ok now with small-gui
20090930 22:47:46< Ivanovic> cool
20090930 22:48:08< ancestral> silene: That's the thing, it's a Wesnoth Mac OS specific issue. Still not resolved with 1.7.6 for me.
20090930 22:49:36< alink> and i wonder if it would be simpler and safer to have a different theme "tiny" in a separate cfg file, and just use that as default when the tiny flag is on
20090930 22:50:22< Ivanovic> alink: uhm, tiny and small are two different things
20090930 22:50:52< ancestral> Anyone else running OS X that can verify this?
20090930 22:51:01< Ivanovic> and yeah, moving the tinyspecific stuff into an extra file that is just included using the file include directive might be best
20090930 22:51:06< alink> yes small can probably continue to inherit root resolution
20090930 22:51:39< Ivanovic> small just needs some font adjustments to display nicely in the right pane, the rest works just as for 800x600
20090930 22:51:50< Ivanovic> (okay, font and placement in the right pane)
20090930 22:52:27< alink> + remove race, and now def% too
20090930 22:56:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.6, announcing soon | string/feature freeze active! | 92 bugs, 237 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090930 22:57:57< alink> wesbot: update 
20090930 22:58:02< CIA-62> crab * r38917 /trunk/data/core/macros/ai.cfg: LoW: fix bug # 14404: made special right-click leader control actions disappear on victory
20090930 22:58:14< alink> wesbot: count bugs again
20090930 22:58:32< alink> wesbot: topic
20090930 22:58:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.6, announcing soon | string/feature freeze active! | 91 bugs, 237 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090930 22:58:47< alink> wesbot: good bot
20090930 22:59:10< CIA-62> crab * r38918 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/09_Bounty_hunters.cfg: LoW 9: fix bug with Landar and Cleodil being accidentially left behind
20090930 23:06:09< Sapient> have fun, cya later
20090930 23:06:11-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090930 23:10:50< silene> ancestral: can you run wesnoth with the option --log-debug=general and post your logs after changing language twice?
20090930 23:12:08 * Nayela is back (gone 02:53:01)
20090930 23:15:23< Shadow_Master> Nayela: maybe you could disable that? (the away notification)
20090930 23:15:52< Shadow_Master> um, never mind, Soliton beat me to it while my router had crashed..
20090930 23:16:14< loonycyborg> Yes. If everyone had those enabled, irc channels would be quite spammy..
20090930 23:16:19 * Nayela nods
20090930 23:16:32< Nayela> My apologies, I thought only I could see those. I've turned it off now
20090930 23:17:26< ancestral> silene: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m177fd72b
20090930 23:17:48< alink> Nayela: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/   to see what others see
20090930 23:18:11< Nayela> Ooo, thank you
20090930 23:19:21< silene> ancestral: so, after doing that, buttons were left in german instead of switching back to english?
20090930 23:19:29< ancestral> Yes
20090930 23:19:51< ancestral> Basically, if text has been replaced, it won't be replaced again
20090930 23:20:14< Nayela> When making a campaign, does it have to be related to Wesnoth or can it be something completely separate, like another world? :-\
20090930 23:20:34< Soliton> it can be anything you want it to be!
20090930 23:20:36< ancestral> If I were to load a language that only had a partial translation of the buttons, and then load another language with a full translation, the buttons that have already been changed won't, but any the partial didn't have will be changed
20090930 23:21:44< Shadow_Master> mainline campaigns are all set in the world of Wesnoth.
20090930 23:21:58< ancestral> silene: Quitting and re-opening the application works as the only workaround
20090930 23:22:00< Shadow_Master> user-made campaigns are free form
20090930 23:22:22< Nayela> Okies, thanks Shadow_Master :)
20090930 23:23:43< alink> Shadow_Master: indeed but does it need to be like that? Could we have a really "different" mainline campaign to show how flexible the game is ?
20090930 23:24:29< Shadow_Master> well, alink, I have no idea since I'm not a mainline content maintainer :P
20090930 23:24:35< alink> hum, maybe having a different arts set may be a problem
20090930 23:24:42< Shadow_Master> I can only talk for the past, and the present.
20090930 23:25:15< silene> ancestral: your comment about partial translations really makes it look like it shouldn't be macosx specific; i don't understand why i can't reproduce it
20090930 23:25:49< ancestral> I can't reproduce it in Windows myself
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20090930 23:27:25< silene> ancestral: is it a version you compiled yourself or is it from crimson_penguin's package?
20090930 23:28:01< ancestral> Just the dev version, so should be from crimson_penguin's package
20090930 23:28:47-!- lizard_r [n=Miranda@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/lizard] has quit ["Saurian Augur - I'll heal you by 4 hp if you leave next to me"]
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20090930 23:41:58< silene> ancestral: if you start with another language than english; are you able to change language later or is it stuck in this other language until you restart the game? (english/us is a special case, that's why i'm interested in how it behaves with other languages)
20090930 23:42:17< ancestral> Let me try
20090930 23:42:49< ancestral> Oh interesting
20090930 23:43:17< ancestral> If I start with a non-English language, it doesn't change the language at all
20090930 23:44:06< ancestral> Well it will change any strings that the first language didn't have
20090930 23:44:34< ancestral> Quitting and re-opening does load the last chosen language though
20090930 23:45:39< silene> just as i thought
20090930 23:47:04< silene> i'm not sure, but the bug may be in gettext rather in wesnoth; it caches translation and it notices language changes only once per run
20090930 23:47:41 * Chusslove would just require a restart after language change.
20090930 23:48:15< ancestral> Doesn't really solve the problem, but that is a work-around
20090930 23:49:40< ancestral> Interesting is that the first few lines when the application loads, "Verifying cache…", "Reading files and cache files", and "Reading unit files" are always in English, no matter what language you last selected.
20090930 23:51:01< Chusslove> Here it's always translated.
20090930 23:51:07< Chusslove> What's you system locale?
20090930 23:51:28< Chusslove> echo $LANG $LC_ALL
20090930 23:51:28< ancestral> Oh, the logo doesn't change either, like when Spanish is chosen
20090930 23:51:56< ancestral> en_US.UTF-8
20090930 23:52:18< ancestral> This works correctly in Windows and Linux, we've pretty much established that much
20090930 23:52:52< silene> ancestral: do you have a way to compile wesnoth? i have found a hack in apache/php (they have a similar issue) but it needs some testing
20090930 23:53:20< ancestral> Possibly... I might need updated Xcode files from Crimson_Penguin
20090930 23:54:42< ancestral> There's been a plethora of new files and old files which have been deleted
20090930 23:54:44-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090930 23:54:49< ancestral> since the last time I compiled
20090930 23:57:12-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20090930 23:58:45< ancestral> silene: Realistically I'm going to need crimson_penguin's updated Xcode files otherwise it's going to take me forever to figure out which files to remove and which to add
--- Log closed Thu Oct 01 00:00:11 2009