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20090923 09:44:51< Ivanovic> moin
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20090923 11:14:52< founderznd_> 大家好，问下，进入游戏菜单显示方框，该怎么解决呢？
20090923 11:16:13< Ivanovic> this chan is meant to be in english
20090923 11:16:24< Ivanovic> no idea if anyone is around who understands the language you used
20090923 11:16:58< founderznd_> 哦，这么说菜单是用的英文字体？
20090923 11:17:57< founderznd_> .h
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20090923 13:31:31< ilor> uh. Isn't scons supposed to use CXXFLAGS or CFLAGS or something? I can't get it to register anything during config checks, though it does use CXXFLAGS during compilation
20090923 13:33:07< Soliton> scons doesn't like env variables.
20090923 13:33:34< ilor> it uses them while building just not while checking, which is annoying
20090923 13:33:52< Soliton> our script only explicitely supports some during compilation.
20090923 13:34:35< Soliton> i think you wanted to ask in #wesnoth-dev, btw. ;-)
20090923 13:37:43< Ivanovic> ilor: with cmake those env vars work without problems
20090923 13:37:45< Ivanovic> ;)
20090923 13:38:02< ilor> Soliton: aw, true ;p
20090923 13:38:55< ilor> Soliton: there ;P
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20090923 14:14:15< sandman> Does the Wesnoth team have any plans for an auto-update feature?
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20090923 14:22:09< Rhonda> sandman: How would you implement it?
20090923 14:34:10< sandman> Rhonda: Binary repository. Auto-matically downloads the installer for windows, the binaries for whaterver
20090923 14:34:13< sandman> whatever, that is.
20090923 14:34:23< sandman> Have a default installation directory of /usr/local/wesnoth
20090923 14:34:28< sandman> The binary installer can stick the files in there
20090923 14:34:38< sandman> Easy =) Statically linked or what-have-you
20090923 14:38:59< Rhonda> And how is that really helpful? I am extremely sure that you have no clue of what you are saying or anywhere remotely being able to imagine what statically linking would mean for wesnoth.
20090923 14:46:17< sandman> Well, I was just largely thinking it would allow for a universal installer, of sorts. 
20090923 14:46:35< sandman> More players means more potential developers. If you want to sell something, all you have to do is make it easy. 
20090923 14:47:34< sandman> Of course, we're not selling anything. But, I figured I'd just throw something out there. Also, Rhonda: I am extremely sure that you think you're real smart, and perhaps you are. But speaking in a condescending fashion won't do you much good in life. It's much more effective to be personable. 
20090923 14:47:41< sandman> You'd be surprised how far a kind word can get you =)
20090923 14:48:52< Ivanovic> sandman: you know, regarding linux things are meant to work differently
20090923 14:49:03< Ivanovic> you are ment to trust in your package manager handling *all* of your system
20090923 14:49:16< Ivanovic> so when wesnoth updates are out, you are ment to get them via the package manager
20090923 14:49:17< sandman> Ivanovic: Ehh, I'd much rather trust upstream.
20090923 14:49:34< Ivanovic> sure, if you are using a distribution that s**** this does not work since they won't update the package
20090923 14:49:58< sandman> Ehh.. No, even then I still install from upstream.
20090923 14:50:07< Ivanovic> if you trust upstream you are of course free to just download the tarball and compiler+install yourself
20090923 14:50:08< sandman> I prefer to build manually, as well as keep things simple.
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20090923 14:50:22< sandman> Ivanovic: Right, I understand that. 
20090923 14:50:32< sandman> But I was just throwing it out there that perhaps that whole idea could be Made Easy
20090923 14:50:40< Ivanovic> and with linux in general it is *not* possible to present a "unified binary"
20090923 14:51:02< sandman> If you made it such that the game was extremely easy (perhaps automatically?) installed, regardless of distribution, and made it automatically update itself, I am sure you'd end up with _even more_ players of this great game
20090923 14:51:05< Ivanovic> just look at the platforms available, how to provide a binary working for x86, x86_64, ppc, arm, mips, sparc, ...
20090923 14:51:12< sandman> Which would surely lead to move developers as well. 
20090923 14:51:26< Ivanovic> ehm, what you propose is simply not possible
20090923 14:51:33< Ivanovic> that is: if it is, provide a patch for it!
20090923 14:51:36< sandman> Ivanovic: Well, I understand that much, sure. 
20090923 14:51:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20090923 14:52:12< sandman> Different architectures, sure. I can see that. But perhaps _more_ universal.
20090923 14:52:14< Ivanovic> automatically updating things out of your system is in general not desired, if i use linux i tend to also want to use the package manager
20090923 14:52:30< Ivanovic> since hey, that one makes life really easy, just got to start *one* programm to get updates for *all*
20090923 14:52:34< sandman> I use the package manager also, unless the package itself can take care of things.
20090923 14:52:40< Ivanovic> no need to start each prog to get it updated
20090923 14:52:42< sandman> For example, nVidia's driver installer.
20090923 14:52:58< Ivanovic> ugh, especially drivers i install via my package manager
20090923 14:53:04< sandman> nVidia's driver installer comes with its own installer/uninstaller/updater, etc, and it takes care of itself. I'd much rather use that than a package manager.
20090923 14:53:05< Ivanovic> makes it *a lot* easier to remove them later on
20090923 14:53:31< sandman> Hm. Well, whatever.
20090923 14:53:55< Ivanovic> if you have a good package manager you even put binary stuff in it and have it handle things
20090923 14:54:10< sandman> But there are many different package managers out there.
20090923 14:54:15< Ivanovic> why bother with the respective installer interface where you can just automatically have things updated?
20090923 14:54:22< Ivanovic> yes, there are
20090923 14:54:31< sandman> Because not all distributions work that way. Debian stable, for example
20090923 14:54:34< sandman> Or any distribution with package locking
20090923 14:54:35< Ivanovic> and you have to find the one you think suits your needs best
20090923 14:55:07< sandman> None of the distributions fit my needs best.
20090923 14:55:23< Ivanovic> ahhh, you would completely defeat the purpose of using debian stable if you use the bleeding edge packages from upstream, woudn't you?
20090923 14:55:27< sandman> Which is why I learned about LFS. I still use dpkg, though. Best package manager I know of, outside of upstream-specific package managers.
20090923 14:55:49< sandman> I didn't say I used Debian Stable =) I just used that as an example.
20090923 14:55:54< Ivanovic> i use gentoo unstable since it tends to be really up to date and works lovely (that is adding ebuilds yourself is dead easy, too)
20090923 14:56:15< Ivanovic> if i wanted to use a binary based distribution, i would be running archlinux, since they work after a rolling release scheme, too
20090923 14:56:38< sandman> Well, I'm not really interested in discussing distributions. I personally think distributions suck in general.
20090923 14:58:08< Ivanovic> and i just say that it would suck really bad if we provided some unified installer since it would cost us *lots* of time to design something "basically working" and it would still be far away from perfect
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20090923 14:58:43< Ivanovic> especially since *that* is what distributions are for, providing up to date binaries (with the corresponding libs that work on their specific system setup)
20090923 14:58:56< sandman> So you're saying something like the nVidia installer couldn't be developed? Where it's actually a script on top of binary data
20090923 14:59:09< Ivanovic> no, i say that the nvidia installer sucks
20090923 14:59:13< sandman> Which automatically goes through and checks on the system, customizes the installation method and keeps track of itself after the install?
20090923 14:59:19< Ivanovic> how can you use such an installer for other platforms?
20090923 14:59:38< sandman> Well, that's just for Linux.
20090923 14:59:49< Ivanovic> how to use it to install wesnoth on non x86 based systems?
20090923 14:59:54< sandman> Can use bash to do the determining of how to install itself. Figure it out, as it were.
20090923 15:00:00< Ivanovic> or should we provide such a unified installer for every arch?
20090923 15:00:10< sandman> With windows of course it's standardized so you'd just hafta create a single installer, really.
20090923 15:00:17< Ivanovic> ah right, and where do we take this time from?
20090923 15:00:19< sandman> Ivanovic: It's a script on top of data
20090923 15:00:36< sandman> Ivanovic: So the script would be platform independent, sorta. 
20090923 15:00:42< Ivanovic> yes, and how much time would we as wesnoth devs have to soent on chereating packages?
20090923 15:00:48< sandman> Based upon its queries, it could just discover how to install itself 
20090923 15:00:54< Ivanovic> s/chereating/creating
20090923 15:01:06< sandman> Ivanovic: Well, I'd figure after the script was written, probably not much time at all.
20090923 15:01:18< Ivanovic> that is: atm we just bundle the tarball (that is i do so) and notify the packagers "hey, the tarball is done, do with it what you like"
20090923 15:01:19< Rhonda> sandman: There are not that many people that don't put their trust into packager's hands. And there isn't much complain about that. Also, the wesnoth team themself only releases source and depend on the community to produce the binaries.
20090923 15:01:23< sandman> I was just proposing the idea, though maybe ya'll would find it interesting. But instead, you all seem thoroughly hostile to the idea of having an installer
20090923 15:01:24< sandman> Which is fine
20090923 15:01:28< sandman> Just thought I'd mention it
20090923 15:01:42< Rhonda> sandman: So in the end you could be the community part that produces the universal installer. :)
20090923 15:01:45< sandman> Rhonda: I'd much rather trust you guys, honestly
20090923 15:01:48< sandman> Rhonda: That's just me
20090923 15:01:59< Ivanovic> sandman: you are free to provide such a unified installer
20090923 15:02:01< sandman> Well, yeah. I suppose that's a good point. 
20090923 15:02:03< Ivanovic> and we clearly welcome patches
20090923 15:02:09< sandman> I just wanted to see what you all would think of it
20090923 15:02:16< Rhonda> sandman: If you include me in "you guys" and you are using a debian based system, you are there already. ;)
20090923 15:02:18< sandman> But it seems you all think it's a dumb idea.
20090923 15:02:36< Ivanovic> it is just that we as wesnoth devs prefer to work on wesnoth itself, not some great and perfect installer system, that basically has nothing to do with wesnoth itself
20090923 15:02:46< sandman> Rhonda: I like dpkg, not necessarily Debian.
20090923 15:02:54< sandman> I respect Debian's Free ways, very much.
20090923 15:02:59< Rhonda> sandman: We are happily being told that we are wrong with our impression. :)
20090923 15:03:25< Ivanovic> (even more problematic: where to get the bandwidth for the downloads from? atm we distribute souce+windows+mac via sf.net, this works nicely, but we would not be able to afford this ourselfs, we use several TB per day!)
20090923 15:03:42< sandman> Ivanovic: I think I should really just build this installer.
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20090923 15:03:49< sandman> Because I know you all don't see a point in it, but I do.
20090923 15:03:50< Rhonda> As you said before, I might or might not be smart. And by no means I claim to not do mistakes.
20090923 15:04:11< sandman> Like I said, if you want to sell something, all you have to do is make it easy. If you make something easy to do, people will do it.
20090923 15:04:20< sandman> However dumb that sounds, and I know it does, it works. 
20090923 15:04:36< Ivanovic> open a shell and type "emerge wesnoth", sounds easy to me
20090923 15:04:38< Ivanovic> ;)
20090923 15:04:50< sandman> If you're using Gentoo / portage, sure.
20090923 15:04:51< Ivanovic> no need to open a webbrowser first or anything like this
20090923 15:04:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20090923 15:04:58< Rhonda> We are not selling something, and it is already quite easy for a lot of people because of the packagers. :)
20090923 15:05:09< sandman> Rhonda: I disagree.
20090923 15:05:27< sandman> Rhonda: Don't neglect the countless thousands that have turned away from Linux because of its lack of "ease of use"
20090923 15:05:29< Rhonda> You are not part of "we" so I'm not sure how you could disagree. :)
20090923 15:05:49< sandman> Rhonda: You said it is quite easy for a lot of people because of packagers.
20090923 15:05:51< Rhonda> But you won't buy those back with an even more easy wesnoth.
20090923 15:06:13< sandman> Rhonda: You're right, but there is an endless supply of fresh new people in this brave world of ours
20090923 15:06:20< sandman> New idiots being born every day, as it were. 
20090923 15:06:22< Ivanovic> sandman: people turn away because they don't get a 1:1 windows clone just without the MS logo
20090923 15:06:37< Ivanovic> sandman: people tend to not be willing to learn things and new ways
20090923 15:06:46< sandman> You can bet that every day, at least one person is discovering Linux and/or wesnoth for the very first time.
20090923 15:06:59< Ivanovic> they once learned something in one way and are now not willing to change their mind on how things "have to work"
20090923 15:07:16< sandman> Ivanovic: That's true for people who were previous windows users, sure. For that, I suppose we can hope for ReactOS
20090923 15:07:55< Ivanovic> and people who never before used a computer, bought some netbook in a store and linux was on it
20090923 15:08:13< Ivanovic> do you really think that those people would turn away from the computer because it feels strange?
20090923 15:08:31< Ivanovic> they might turn away because those they can ask for help only know windows and can't help them
20090923 15:08:44< sandman> Sure. What are you getting at, though?
20090923 15:08:55< Rhonda> ... we are turning into a general discussion that isn't really wesnoth's job to fight, I fear.
20090923 15:09:11< Ivanovic> in general i would not say that linux is too hard to use compared to other operating systems, it is just different
20090923 15:09:28< Ivanovic> and each system operates differently regarding packages
20090923 15:09:51< Rhonda> So let's cut it short: You are welcome to work on an universal installer like you suggested. Someone was working on a live-CD with wesnoth on it e.g. to boot into the game from what I remember, maybe that's also a direction you want to head to.
20090923 15:09:55< Ivanovic> on windows you are used to downloading an .exe from some website and install the program, to remove it, use the windows software management thingie or the provided uninstaller
20090923 15:10:15< Ivanovic> on macs you download the ".cmg" and click+drop the application onto your desktop
20090923 15:10:22< Rhonda> Ivanovic: . o O ( and hope that there is an uninstaller included that does the right job[tm]
20090923 15:10:23< Ivanovic> to uninstall, just delete the .app
20090923 15:10:34< Rhonda> Ivanovic: .dmg, not .cmg :)
20090923 15:10:51< Ivanovic> on linux you open your package manager, search for the prog you want and tell the package manager to install it
20090923 15:10:52< Rhonda> Ivanovic: . o O ( and leave the cruft left in Library )
20090923 15:10:57< sandman> Ehh, not really. Perhaps something like this: A script with a binary at the end which just connects to wesnoth.org in one way or another, downloads a build script, etc, does the building, you get the idea.
20090923 15:11:01< Ivanovic> for removal, just tell the package manager to do so
20090923 15:11:15< sandman> This way, it mostly utilizes stuff that's there anyway.
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20090923 15:11:28< Ivanovic> those are the ways the average users of the systems are used to and the systems that work for them
20090923 15:11:36< Rhonda> sandman: Like Ivanovic mentioned before, we are having bandwidth issues already.
20090923 15:11:58< sandman> Ivanovic: Well, yeah. Because people are downloading the whole 200+MB game every time
20090923 15:11:59< Ivanovic> sandman: we can *not* distribute any binaries via wesnoth.org
20090923 15:12:03< sandman> Which is why I think an updater would be useful.
20090923 15:12:14< Rhonda> So it seems to be easy enough for the users to eat up our precious donated services already.
20090923 15:12:19< sandman> Which downloads only the new parts. Or better, uses rsync or something to only download the differing parts
20090923 15:12:19< Ivanovic> even if we just provided 20MB patches it would not be possible
20090923 15:12:23< sandman> And perhaps Bittorrent.
20090923 15:12:35< Ivanovic> then it would just be 200GB per day instead of 2TB, wow, lovely...
20090923 15:13:00< Ivanovic> (considering that we are only allowed to use 2TB per month for everything on wesnoth.org including the addon server and mp server)
20090923 15:13:00< Rhonda> Hmmm, some bittorrent tracker indeed would be helpful.
20090923 15:13:16< sandman> You could seed a wesnoth BT on a 56k connection and have it still be successful =)
20090923 15:13:17< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Was there talks about that somewhere already? I guess I can offer an initial tracker for that.
20090923 15:13:51< Ivanovic> Rhonda: i think every now and then someone created a .torrent file from some release in the forums
20090923 15:14:08< sandman> Perhaps BT should be official.
20090923 15:14:17< Ivanovic> sandman: why?
20090923 15:14:22< Ivanovic> sf.net is working lovely
20090923 15:14:34< sandman> Rhonda: Because of everything Rhonda just said about bandwidth. 
20090923 15:14:34< Ivanovic> you can use any download manager you want and easily get >1MB/s
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20090923 15:14:37< sandman> Err, 
20090923 15:14:42< sandman> Ivanovic: What I just said to Rhonda =)
20090923 15:14:45< Ivanovic> no, we don't use any bandwidth for binaries
20090923 15:15:05< Ivanovic> since the binaries as *only* available "external" (sf.net)
20090923 15:15:21< Rhonda> Ivanovic: download manager suck big time in all possible meanings of the word suck.
20090923 15:15:38< sandman> I'm going to have to agree with Rhonda's assessment. 
20090923 15:15:42< Ivanovic> Rhonda: uhm, wget works nicely
20090923 15:15:56< Rhonda> That's hardly a download manager. :)
20090923 15:15:59< sandman> wget is an age-old time-tested download manager that Works. That's my $0.02 =)
20090923 15:16:05< sandman> Yeah
20090923 15:16:14< sandman> When I think download manager I think... GetRight
20090923 15:16:15< sandman> Yech
20090923 15:16:24< sandman> I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I said that.
20090923 15:16:29< Ivanovic> it is a prog that makes sure that i will eventually have the file i want to have
20090923 15:16:36< Ivanovic> (not this other strange prog)
20090923 15:17:21< Rhonda> sandman: Sorry for my initial short response, but I still believe that you don't have any clue of what statically linking of wesnoth would produce. Besides that, all my best to your effort, personally (as debian packager) I don#'
20090923 15:17:36< Rhonda> ... I don't see the big benefit, to be honest.
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20090923 21:38:43< Sir_Konrad> busy channel today...
20090923 21:39:07< shadowmaster> it's like that always
20090923 21:39:24< Sir_Konrad> really?
20090923 21:39:29< shadowmaster> yup.
20090923 21:39:44< Sir_Konrad> how often is there a discusion in here?
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20090923 21:43:27< Tomsik_> never
20090923 21:43:36< Tomsik_> You just disturbed the dead
20090923 21:44:24< Sir_Konrad> lol
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20090923 21:46:52< shadowmaster> Sir_Konrad: whenever someone feels like talking about something interesting
20090923 21:47:16< Sir_Konrad> Not often, huh? ;)
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20090923 23:52:58< _aD> ahoy :-)
20090923 23:53:38< _aD> every time I download a new version of Wesnoth it gets more and more polish, thanks for such a great game
20090923 23:54:35< Ivanovic> hmm, i had the impression that the polish translation team was not *this* active lately...
20090923 23:54:48< _aD> :-P~
20090923 23:55:06< _aD> there used to be a Polish shop at the end of the road and I always wondered why they never sold table polish
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20090923 23:56:45< _aD> I love how, despite the big changes the game has gone through in the years I've played it, it still feels like Wesnoth
20090923 23:56:49< _aD> it's retained the core character
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 24 00:00:08 2009