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20090925 05:24:26< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090925 09:35:43< Ivanovic> moin
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20090925 18:19:17< nycz> does anyone here know if wesnoth 1.0 is more "lightweight" than 1.6 or 1.4? so that it can be run on worse computers?
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20090925 18:20:47< Soliton> yes, it is.
20090925 18:24:22< nycz> nice
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20090925 18:37:10< nycz> hm, is it possible to play multiplayer with a 1.4 and a 1.6 client?
20090925 18:37:40< Soliton> sure. together? no.
20090925 18:37:54< nycz> doh :/
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20090925 22:26:11< GeorgeGhoal> hey, ppl!
20090925 22:27:01< GeorgeGhoal> if Wesnoth didn't have modular era scheme, would it be possible to make it 3D?
20090925 22:27:15< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: No.
20090925 22:27:32< Aethaeryn> No one wants Wesnoth to be 3D because that would require a totally different set of artists, and would look bad...
20090925 22:27:43< Aethaeryn> It is a developer decision to choose good 2D over bad 3D.
20090925 22:28:56< Aethaeryn> If I were a gambler, I would bet a significant sum of money against Wesnoth turning 3D within the next 5 years.
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20090925 22:29:32< Aethaeryn> I would also bet against "Wesnoth 2.0" being 3D.
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20090925 22:29:55< GeorgeGhoal> well, a Java JOGL-driven 3D game with same factions/balance and map sizes, but different art?
20090925 22:30:16< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: If you want to fork Wesnoth and make it 3D, feel free.
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20090925 22:30:22< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: I can direct you to the source code.
20090925 22:30:51< GeorgeGhoal> there are balance extractor that extract balance from interface counters
20090925 22:31:37< GeorgeGhoal> then, what remains is to compile battle system parts and other things around that balance system
20090925 22:32:06< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: If you want a 3D Wesnoth, you can fork it. It's an open source game, which means that the source code (written in C++) is freely available. No one is planning on making it 3D at the moment, and I doubt the core developers would ever make it 3D.
20090925 22:33:14< Aethaeryn> There are numerous threads and posts on this topic on the forum. It ain't gonna happen. A 3D Wesnoth would have to be a different game based off of it...
20090925 22:33:28< GeorgeGhoal> well, i'm not a programmer, but i guess a commercial o-src game might appear if a publisher like 1C would like Wesnoth
20090925 22:35:22< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: If you're not a programmer, and you cannot find someone else willing to fork Wesnoth and make a 3D version of it, and make good graphics for this 3D version... then, I think that's the end of that idea. None of the existing developers want 3D Wesnoth, so you would have to persuade someone else...
20090925 22:36:00< GeorgeGhoal> Maybe, 3D game based off of Wesnoth would be embedded into a HoMM-style TBAS (turn-based army strategy - HoMM, Disciples 3, etc)?
20090925 22:36:50< GeorgeGhoal> maybe, a STAPS (synchronized turns army strategy - AoW has that feature in MP)?
20090925 22:36:54< Aethaeryn> Congratulations, you just made your Wesnoth-fork a million times more complex to code.
20090925 22:37:18< _aD> You'll need more than a million monkeys with a million typewriters!
20090925 22:37:30< GeorgeGhoal> complex? if an overworld is already done and company is looking for battle part?
20090925 22:37:45< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Good luck with your project, feel free to stop by and update me on it when you have some of it complete. Maybe I'll take a look at the game.
20090925 22:37:47< noy> GeorgeGhoal: that might be an idea but it would break a lot of things.
20090925 22:37:49< _aD> Then...it's still insanely complex
20090925 22:38:03< noy> and there is no interest in it
20090925 22:38:06< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Have fun.
20090925 22:38:11< _aD> OOI do you not feel that 3D Wesnoth would lose some of it's appeal and character?
20090925 22:39:11< _aD> it's like nethack without the @
20090925 22:39:18< GeorgeGhoal> Mount&Blade, being turned into a magical setting, is a ready overworld - what's needed is to make a battle system embed, based of Wesnoth's balance
20090925 22:39:55< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: If you think it is needed, talk to someone willing to put the effort into it, or put the effort into it yourself. None of the current Wesnoth developers are interested.
20090925 22:40:09< _aD> You could always post a feature request
20090925 22:40:17< Aethaeryn> LOL
20090925 22:40:44< _aD> I don't think there's a 3D category though
20090925 22:40:47< GeorgeGhoal> hey, TaleWorlds is looking for Mount&Blade to be bought as an engine
20090925 22:41:18< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: I don't think money is the motivation of any Wesnoth developers, except maybe that guy who makes the iPhone port. That part's arguable though.
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20090925 22:42:46< GeorgeGhoal> in credits of The Twelve Thrones, there'd be just "battle system based off of The Battle for Wesnoth (www.wesnoth.org)"
20090925 22:44:57< GeorgeGhoal> twelve factions, controlled by strategic AI's, player(s) explore, fight, complete quests, etc - on realtime overworld. battle is in STS (synchronized turns strategy)
20090925 22:47:04 * GeorgeGhoal will forward it to 1C and look if that will come to life any soon
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20090925 22:49:35< GeorgeGhoal> i, myself, don't need it to be 3D-ized, but if people know that a good game's battle part is Wesnoth-based, there'll be more players online, and you might make registration paid and make unauthorized players unable to host games
20090925 22:50:03< GeorgeGhoal> the $ might be used to pay for new artists/programmers, that'll increase the improvement rate
20090925 22:50:12< _aD> increase?
20090925 22:50:20< GeorgeGhoal> yes
20090925 22:50:23< _aD> It improves faster than pretty much any other game I've ever played
20090925 22:50:50< Aethaeryn> Yeah.
20090925 22:51:18< _aD> Every year or so I download it again and I actually sit here in amazement
20090925 22:51:30< _aD> I say "wow" to my monitor. It doesn't reply :-/
20090925 22:51:37< GeorgeGhoal> but i can't wait for two-store maps (with underground) - pre-announced for 2.0 stable
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20090925 22:53:22< GeorgeGhoal> "well" is placed on top store, "rope" - on the bottom. they form a way to get between the stores (AoW SM has 3 stores [!])
20090925 22:54:31< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: CABD
20090925 22:54:36< Aethaeryn> Can Already Be Done
20090925 22:54:51< GeorgeGhoal> can?
20090925 22:55:05< Aethaeryn> The maps would have to be on top of each other though on one map, since the engine doesn't support switching between different maps
20090925 22:55:18< Aethaeryn> better that way for a strategy game, since you'd be able to see it all
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20090925 22:57:15< GeorgeGhoal> so, rooms can be done only by placing them on one map? but that at least halves the map size. i meant like in commercial HoMM and AoW
20090925 23:00:11< GeorgeGhoal> double_horror.1.wmap + double_horror.2.wmap + double_horror.esdb
20090925 23:00:26< GeorgeGhoal> esdb - event script database
20090925 23:00:58< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: I know what you're talking about. It would be nice to allow multiple maps for scenarios for a more persistant feel.
20090925 23:01:30< GeorgeGhoal> contains triggers for those stoned units in one of 2P maps and some other stuff like going between stores
20090925 23:01:36< Aethaeryn> As in, you could make 10 200x200 (the max) maps and make them link together in the scenario into one big map
20090925 23:02:13< Aethaeryn> Not very relevant for Wesnoth though, it would create games that would take 1000-2000 turns to complete, thus taking up a month to playtest... let alone make.
20090925 23:02:23< Aethaeryn> but w/e, bbl.
20090925 23:02:29< _aD> ttyl
20090925 23:03:13< GeorgeGhoal> the difference is that it must be only 2 stores and each portal must be on same co-ordinates on both of them
20090925 23:04:10< GeorgeGhoal> make underground just a training area to train your units before the main attack
20090925 23:04:26< GeorgeGhoal> each cave having one entrance
20090925 23:05:31< GeorgeGhoal> though it might require a synchronized turns mode available... that might turn Wesnoth into just another TB game like Fallout Tactics
20090925 23:05:49< GeorgeGhoal> erm
20090925 23:06:56< GeorgeGhoal> maybe, SAT?
20090925 23:07:09< GeorgeGhoal> Synchronized Allies' Turns
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20090925 23:11:04< GeorgeGhoal> i just see Wesnoth as a piece of a puzzle, called LAN Sandlot RPG With Tactical Battles
20090925 23:11:46< _aD> That would explain why you don't comprehend a lot of the answers and statements that reply to your suggestions
20090925 23:12:38< GeorgeGhoal> see? i look at o-src games to fish out some goodies for commercial games - as they turn into rubbish
20090925 23:13:15< GeorgeGhoal> commercial games might become total junk within a year, if the developers don't look around on o-src and/or back to 1990's
20090925 23:13:58-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090925 23:14:48< GeorgeGhoal> KBAP or Mount&Blade are ready overworld sets for that sort of game, Wesnoth/Fire emblem - ready battle part.
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20090925 23:16:37< GeorgeGhoal> so? will HoMM/KB be resurrected in 3D as LAN MP games any soon?
20090925 23:17:04< GeorgeGhoal> you know, i'm just a blasted gamer, whose first mega-fav PC game was HoMM3
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20090925 23:20:34< GeorgeGhoal> there are lots of harvesters that look around for good ideas and bring them to commercial game developers/publishers. they often have self-insulting names
20090925 23:20:55< GeorgeGhoal> like my netname
20090925 23:21:33< GeorgeGhoal> ghoal in WC3 is a dead monster that harvests wood for undead
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20090925 23:26:30< GeorgeGhoal> so, if a person has self-insulting name, blacklist IMMEDIATELY, if you want to avoid wesnoth-as-something discussions
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20090925 23:27:38< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: it's definitely CABD
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20090925 23:27:48< _aD> wa
20090925 23:27:52< _aD> what, auto-blacklisting?
20090925 23:28:13< GeorgeGhoal> blacklisting self-insulting names
20090925 23:28:17< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: To have a cave training area accessable by only one hex behind your base, where if your units are in that cave, they can... let's say, gain 2 xp a turn.
20090925 23:28:18 * Rhonda . o O ( we should auto-blacklist GeorgeGhoal )
20090925 23:28:50< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Using teleporters, it can even be a different part of the map, only accessable via a ladder or whatever. There's even a ladder image I think.
20090925 23:29:44< Aethaeryn> It would also be fairly balanced: opportunity cost. Every unit in training would not be able to take villages or kill or whatever. Someone might just rush and have 0 units in training, and win that way.
20090925 23:29:46< GeorgeGhoal> but then, underground must be 100x200
20090925 23:29:59< Aethaeryn> No.
20090925 23:30:26< Aethaeryn> unless you intend for each side to have 200 units and have them all in training?
20090925 23:30:26< GeorgeGhoal> if equal parts like in commercial games
20090925 23:30:46< _aD> HoMM IV didn't have equally-proportioned sub-levels
20090925 23:30:52< _aD> if I recall correctly
20090925 23:30:57< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: I don't understand you. You rant about how commercial games suck compared to open source ones and then you say Wesnoth should learn from commercial games. :P
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20090925 23:31:01< GeorgeGhoal> 4 is a blast
20090925 23:31:11< _aD> I have II and IV, they're both fab
20090925 23:31:20< _aD> Actually I have V too, but can't get it to work
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20090925 23:32:12< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Even assuming you want an underground level to run parallel (under or to the right of) an existing mainline map, you wouldn't need to make it 100x200. No mainline Wesnoth map is that big.
20090925 23:32:15< GeorgeGhoal> but 2-store is the only good part of commercial strategic games
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20090925 23:32:58< GeorgeGhoal> 100x200 as half of 200x200 (max)
20090925 23:33:04< Aethaeryn> It would be *extremely* simple to take Hamlets, double the size of the map, have the right side of the map be an "underground" training area which you can only access via two teleporters, one for each side.
20090925 23:33:37< Aethaeryn> And just put a wall down the middle so you can't actually cross into your opponent's training area... unless there's a tunnel for a side battle, which could be interesting.
20090925 23:33:50< Aethaeryn> And then while in the training area, you gain 1 xp per turn.
20090925 23:34:09< Aethaeryn> But your upkeep is doubled, so if you would cost 1gold a turn to keep, you would now cost 2
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20090925 23:34:30< GeorgeGhoal> caves must be full of low-price "dead" units
20090925 23:34:33< Aethaeryn> All of that could already be done. The only thing would be that it wouldn't be layers, it would be on the same "map" just with a barrier
20090925 23:34:48< Aethaeryn> Not really, the caves can be done however the map designer wants them to be done.
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20090925 23:35:40< Aethaeryn> In fact, now with cave path terrain looking like cave but counting as flat, I may just make a map called Dark Hamlets, where there'd be an underground section of Hamlets that works nothing like you said but rather as an extra battlefield.
20090925 23:35:51< Aethaeryn> I use Hamlets in this example because it is one of the smallest 1v1 maps
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20090925 23:36:48< GeorgeGhoal> what about that 1v1 map "caves"? (with 2 players, but lots of stoned units)
20090925 23:37:04< Aethaeryn> That may actually fit better.
20090925 23:37:12< Aethaeryn> Good idea.
20090925 23:37:39< Aethaeryn> But, alas, Thunderstone has taken up all of my Wesnoth time and will probably continue to.
20090925 23:37:58< Aethaeryn> Thunderstone is too good to die, and if I don't do it no one else will.
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20090925 23:38:32< GeorgeGhoal> make so that if you surround one of the stoned units with your own ones, all those units go to a cave, full of low-level monsters
20090925 23:39:42< GeorgeGhoal> WML-controlled non-player monsters that act in a certain pattern, allowing balanced tactical training
20090925 23:40:15< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Learn WML and do that? None of this is particularly advanced.
20090925 23:40:26< Aethaeryn> Most of it could probably be done simply by copying other snippits of WML.
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20090925 23:41:58< GeorgeGhoal> i barely learned 5 HTML things: bold, italic, underscore, color=f000 and "a href"
20090925 23:42:07< Aethaeryn> Yes. I barely know any HTML, either.
20090925 23:42:14< Aethaeryn> And I was able to put together a mappack, with that basic HTML knowledge.
20090925 23:42:25< Aethaeryn> All you need to do is copy code from other locations and tweak it until it works.
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20090925 23:42:58< Aethaeryn> Most maps in a mappack are there for fun concepts, not fancy tricks. Honestly, there's only 2 scenarios in there that are that fancy at all. The rest are quite basic.
20090925 23:43:34< Aethaeryn> God bless the GPL; makes learning by examples a million times easier.
20090925 23:43:40< Aethaeryn> And there's plenty of WML examples.
20090925 23:44:08< GeorgeGhoal> Wesnoth is GREAT
20090925 23:44:52< Aethaeryn> Better man than me at HTML. I would have to go on Wikipedia to get the HTML code for the color. That or go in the GIMP if I wanted to find a very specific shade.
20090925 23:45:38< GeorgeGhoal> i looked at an example of unit-WML once - it looked as complex as HTML with image sockets
20090925 23:46:07< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Unit WML is one of the simplest things to do in WML.
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20090925 23:46:55< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Just ctrl c & ctrl v an existing units and change the image= and a few other fields. All of the variables are appropriately named. If you know the unit variables (HP, MP, etc.) you'll be able to put it into a unit template.
20090925 23:47:08< GeorgeGhoal> i tried www.furcadia.com Furcadia's DS scripting, i was baaad at variables - so i decided not to bother with WML until a map event manager expansion comes out
20090925 23:47:40< Aethaeryn> WML is very, very, very, VERY simple. you just have a bad attitude.
20090925 23:47:46< Aethaeryn> All you need to do is mess around with it until it works.
20090925 23:47:48< Aethaeryn> Seriously.
20090925 23:48:00-!- nycz [n=pyntix@c83-255-39-206.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090925 23:48:17< Aethaeryn> Then again, poor documentation and the lack of any kind of editor other than a text editor probably means it is easy for one particular type of personality.
20090925 23:48:46< GeorgeGhoal> i tried a simplistic tree-like language and failed, so what can it be with a markup one?
20090925 23:49:04< Aethaeryn> What's so hard about unit.cfg? hitpoints=123 means that unit will have 123 hitpoints, etc.
20090925 23:49:15< Aethaeryn> It's not like you're expected to type out the unit.cfg from nothing.
20090925 23:50:08< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth is one of the easiest games to mod, plain and simple. Even Freeciv is a little fancier.
20090925 23:50:16< Aethaeryn> Honestly, I mod Wesnoth more than I play it.
20090925 23:50:48< GeorgeGhoal> DS is as follows: 0:# if a player stands on (x:y), 1:# and the name is (name), 5:# do
20090925 23:51:33< GeorgeGhoal> so there's 6 levels of a tree, with numbers of parameters in each
20090925 23:52:07< Aethaeryn> Meh, idk why I'm wasting my time here. Try WML. It's really, really, really straightfoward. Especially unit WML, where you don't have to *write* anything, you just replace certain things after the equal sign to set the Unit's stats to that.
20090925 23:52:45< Aethaeryn> What's so hard about name="Elvish Uberpwner", hp=1000, movetype=woodland, etc.?
20090925 23:53:20< GeorgeGhoal> but even unit.cfg has refs to other variables
20090925 23:54:02< Aethaeryn> Have fun waiting for an editor when just about everyone who makes stuff for Wesnoth is content about the way things are. Odds are that the editor when it comes along will just be a powerful text editor that makes Wesnoth easier, but still relies on the same method of editing.
20090925 23:54:33< GeorgeGhoal> not unit hp/move/etc, unit-into-core is what it was (as i remember
20090925 23:55:00< GeorgeGhoal> on forums
20090925 23:55:31< GeorgeGhoal> unit.cfg is ini/cfg-type, not markup really
20090925 23:56:12< GeorgeGhoal> but WML that reads data from unit.cfg
20090925 23:56:33< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Instead of arguing about how easy WML is, I'll probably just finish working on my era in my spare time. Just believe me when I say that quality sprite work is 95% of the workload of an era... the WML itself is rather simple.
20090925 23:56:53< Aethaeryn> If you cannot understand unit.cfg, maybe content making is just not your thing.
20090925 23:57:43< GeorgeGhoal> i can understand an ini/cfg, but the WML that was embedding it into an addon
20090925 23:58:46-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit ["WML is easy. Unit WML is *extremely* easy."]
20090925 23:59:53< GeorgeGhoal> lots of refs to other codes' line #
--- Log closed Sat Sep 26 00:00:26 2009