--- Log opened Sat Oct 10 00:00:02 2009
--- Day changed Sat Oct 10 2009
20091010 00:00:02< mordante> the new gui does, the old one doesn't
20091010 00:00:41< shadowmaster> I mean the wmlscope tool.
20091010 00:01:32< mordante> I understood that, but the old gui uses C++ to find the images, the new one uses WML to find them
20091010 00:01:55< shadowmaster> nope, it doesn't check data/gui, so it'd choke. on thos e images.
20091010 00:02:17< mordante> ah ok
20091010 00:02:19< CIA-62> espreon * r39191 /branches/resources/cartography-tools/great-continent.xcf: Made the label layers transparent.
20091010 00:02:21< shadowmaster> (data/tools/Makefile line 49)
20091010 00:02:49< Ivanovic> okay, unit frames, terrains and projectiles are done, now the lovely stuff called "portraits"
20091010 00:03:17< shadowmaster> I guess esr didn't include it also since there are images shared by GUI1 and WML-based GUI2 that weren't copied around.
20091010 00:04:17< esr> shadowmaster: Didn't include what?
20091010 00:04:49< shadowmaster> esr: we are talking about data/gui/, wmlscope, and images.
20091010 00:05:09< esr> Ah.  Are you going to change the organization of the tree?
20091010 00:05:41< esr> And is there some way wmlscope should change?
20091010 00:06:00< shadowmaster> no idea, Ivanovic was asking why there are  new gui related images in dimages/ instead of data/core/images
20091010 00:07:06< Ivanovic> i just saw that something was commited to images/ instead of data/core/images
20091010 00:07:26< Ivanovic> and i thought that it might be nice to somehow get the image stuff over to data/core/images
20091010 00:07:35< Ivanovic> though yeah, the old gui *is* a reason not to do so...
20091010 00:10:01< Ivanovic> campaignspecific images now being compressed...
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20091010 00:22:08< CIA-62> ivanovic * r39192 /trunk/ (74 files in 27 dirs): 
20091010 00:22:08< CIA-62> ran utils/wesnoth-optipng
20091010 00:22:08< CIA-62> Overall statistics (only for files with a smaller recompressed size):
20091010 00:22:08< CIA-62> Original size: 3725 KiB on 74 files
20091010 00:22:08< CIA-62> Optimized size: 3300 KiB
20091010 00:22:09< CIA-62> Total saving: 425 KiB = 11% decrease
20091010 00:22:33< alink> is it well known that by entering "2" in the filter textbox of recall, you can filter level 2 units ?
20091010 00:22:56< Ivanovic> Rhonda: you see, even 11% saved
20091010 00:22:58< mordante> no
20091010 00:23:17< Ivanovic> Chusslove: you should run utils/wesnoth-optipng on the i10n images before commiting them
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20091010 00:25:10< CIA-62> espreon * r39193 /branches/resources/cartography-tools/great-continent.xcf: Made the colors of the text consistent.
20091010 00:26:43< CIA-62> mordante * r39194 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp: Fix indention.
20091010 00:26:49< CIA-62> mordante * r39195 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (event_handler.cpp event_handler.hpp): 
20091010 00:26:49< CIA-62> Enables mouse wheel scrolling again.
20091010 00:26:49< CIA-62> Should fix bug #14459.
20091010 00:26:58< mordante> Ivanovic, shadowmaster or freim can you test this one^
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20091010 00:35:42< CIA-62> mordante * r39196 /trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
20091010 00:35:42< CIA-62> Allow markup in a campaign description.
20091010 00:35:42< CIA-62> Fixes bug #14435.
20091010 00:35:59< CIA-62> mordante * r39197 /trunk/src/gui/ (11 files in 2 dirs): 
20091010 00:35:59< CIA-62> Rename markup_mode to use_markup.
20091010 00:35:59< CIA-62> The old name was proper when there were three modi, now there are only
20091010 00:35:59< CIA-62> two so the new name is better.
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20091010 00:40:05< CIA-62> mordante * r39198 /trunk/ (changelog src/gui/dialogs/title_screen.cpp): 
20091010 00:40:05< CIA-62> Disable closing the titlescreen with escape.
20091010 00:40:05< CIA-62> Fixes bug #14020.
20091010 00:40:45< CIA-62> mordante * r39199 /trunk/changelog: Fix changelog merge error.
20091010 00:42:07< freim> mordante: works now
20091010 00:43:12< mordante> thanks for testing freim 
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20091010 00:47:56< CIA-62> mordante * r39200 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (text_box.cpp text_box.hpp): Comment out more old code.
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20091010 00:52:11< CIA-62> espreon * r39201 /trunk/data/ (6 files in 6 dirs): Regenerated the main map and the campaign maps that are derived from the main map.
20091010 00:54:05< mordante> btw Ivanovic I have another idea for fixing the po-update problem, I remembered Crommy mentioning msgattrib for fixing poedit's mess
20091010 00:54:39< mordante> maybe I can use that and then use the old update routine, hopefully that will give the wanted results
20091010 00:54:50< mordante> well test after sleeping
20091010 00:59:08< Espreon> mordante: Will the sidebar's appearence be modified again anytime soon?
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20091010 01:00:16< Ivanovic> heading off to bed is a *good* idea!
20091010 01:00:37< mordante> I didn't say I planned that ;-)
20091010 01:00:42< mordante> night Ivanovic 
20091010 01:01:16< mordante> Espreon, depends on your definition of soon ;-) but I don't plan on anything before 1.8, but best also ask alink 
20091010 01:02:02< Espreon> alink: Do you plan to modify the sidebar's appearence before 1.8?
20091010 01:03:07< alink> Well we are in feature freeze I think, so if there is no bug, I suppose it shouldn't change anymore. Unfortunaly, i can't predict future bug discovery
20091010 01:04:36< alink> but should stay the same for the general case
20091010 01:04:47< alink> Espreon: is it for screenshot ?
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20091010 01:06:09< Espreon> alink: Yes.
20091010 01:06:37< alink> don't forget that theme and resolution can always change the look of the sidebar ;-p
20091010 01:07:37< Espreon> ...
20091010 01:07:43< alink> just kidding
20091010 01:09:03< alink> Espreon: but I welcome screenshot of the sidebar since i tried various improvements (I hope) there for 1.8
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20091010 01:15:42< solsword> hey... anyone here know stuff about using the Wesnoth preprocessor for stuff outside of Wesnoth?
20091010 01:16:13< solsword> I'm looking for a preprocessor for another project, and Wesnoth's is one of my favorites...
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20091010 01:16:43< solsword> but I haven't been able to *easily* find a way to invoke it separately (I'm sure I could with some digging)
20091010 01:17:13< solsword> and I'd also like to know about how easy it might be to customize (my potential source has a lot of curly braces in it)
20091010 01:19:22< gtsteel> You may have to find the revelant C++ code and extract it into your other project
20091010 01:19:30< gtsteel> I've used some wesnoth code in another project before
20091010 01:19:39< solsword> mmm
20091010 01:19:48< solsword> I'll probably go with a different preprocessor if that's the case
20091010 01:20:02< solsword> CPP can't handle newlines in the output, which I need
20091010 01:20:23< solsword> I've started looking at m4, but it looks dangerously aggressive in interpreting things
20091010 01:20:31< solsword> guess I'll shop around a bit more
20091010 01:20:54< mordante> solsword, what does the Wesnoth preprocessor have to do with CPP?
20091010 01:21:01< solsword> nothing
20091010 01:21:10< solsword> I'm looking for a preprocessor to use with Context Free Art
20091010 01:21:18< solsword> I was thinking that Wesnoth's would be good
20091010 01:21:39< solsword> except that I'd have to figure out how to invoke it separately (looks like maybe wmlparser.py can handle this?)
20091010 01:21:48< solsword> and I'd have to do something about the curly braces
20091010 01:22:37< solsword> CPP is the obvious choice, so I thought I'd point out why that wouldn't work before someone recomended it
20091010 01:22:50< gtsteel> look in src/serialization/preprocessor.hpp
20091010 01:23:23< gtsteel> write your custom app to use that function and then link it to wesnoth
20091010 01:23:41< solsword> oh
20091010 01:23:45< solsword> yeah, that's simple
20091010 01:24:01< solsword> and I can probably play with the source elsewhere to use something other than {}
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20091010 01:25:54< mordante> yes unfortuately the {} is used at a lot of places
20091010 01:26:05< solsword> oh...
20091010 01:26:19< mordante> but of course you can change it to some constant and replace it
20091010 01:26:27< solsword> do you know what to grep for in preprocessor.cpp?
20091010 01:26:30< solsword> I haven't run into it yet
20091010 01:26:40< Espreon> mordante: Is it intentional for the old markup to "crash" Wesnoth if it is used in campaign descriptions?
20091010 01:26:48< solsword> oh, got it
20091010 01:27:00< solsword> '{ worked
20091010 01:27:20< mordante> good
20091010 01:27:31< mordante> Espreon, what do you mean with "crash" ?
20091010 01:27:56< Espreon> The game exits and throws a WML exception error at me.
20091010 01:28:34< mordante> Espreon, do you have an example, shadowmaster's old data doesn't "crash" for me
20091010 01:28:51< Espreon> Hold on...
20091010 01:29:15< Espreon> Ah, you have a wesnoth-umc-dev checkout. Try my campaign, The Silver Lands.
20091010 01:29:33< Espreon> mordante: ^
20091010 01:34:52< mordante> Espreon, reproduced, but too late here to fix it
20091010 01:35:03< mordante> will look at it after I slept
20091010 01:35:09< Espreon> OK.
20091010 01:36:34< mordante> I'm off night
20091010 01:37:05< solsword> thanks for the help
20091010 01:37:24< mordante> you're welcome
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20091010 02:00:24< Arc> Ivanovic: you still up?
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20091010 03:35:10< shadowmaster> argh, the wesnoth-optipng commit of Terror 
20091010 03:35:35< shadowmaster> s/Terror/Doom/  , sounds better this way.
20091010 03:43:09-!- faryshta [n=faryshta@168.255.251.50] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 03:44:16< shadowmaster> :/ ay, someone decided to update the mainline map pics.
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20091010 03:58:24< Arc> where do the names for recruited units come from?
20091010 03:58:38< shadowmaster> data/core/macros/names.cfg
20091010 03:58:52< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r39202 /trunk/src/addon_management.cpp: Simplify a GUI2 invocation.
20091010 03:58:57< shadowmaster> that contains sources (included from data/core/units.cfg) for the name generator engine
20091010 03:59:00< Arc> wesnoth how to internationalize them?
20091010 03:59:36< shadowmaster> well, translate the sources? :p th first file I pointed out above has them as translatalbe strings
20091010 03:59:43< shadowmaster> *translatable
20091010 04:00:23< shadowmaster> they are already internationalized, they just need to be localized :P
20091010 04:01:16< Arc> i /thought/ they were just from strings, but I just got names in the tutorial that were not in the files
20091010 04:01:40< shadowmaster> like?
20091010 04:02:53< shadowmaster> the name generator system doesn't just take a random item from those lists, it may mangle them and stitch them together (how this is dealt in languages that do not use the latin alphabet such as chinese is beyond me)
20091010 04:03:33-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 99 bugs, 237 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091010 04:03:55< Arc> Gion and Nor
20091010 04:04:05< Arc> elvish names
20091010 04:04:48< shadowmaster> yeah, those are generated using the name generator system (that had a fancy name, I don't remember it right now)
20091010 04:06:21< shadowmaster> um, Markov name generator.
20091010 04:06:40< Arc> ok
20091010 04:06:57< Arc> so - does it just choose random cut points?
20091010 04:07:58< shadowmaster> it learns the number of letters per "syllable" from the race definitions in data/core/units.cfg
20091010 04:08:08< Arc> im reading src/race.cpp
20091010 04:08:15< alink> IIRC it's based on Markov chains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chains
20091010 04:08:17 * shadowmaster is just repeating what's said in http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/UnitsWML re "markov_chain_size"
20091010 04:10:39< Arc> so it takes them in groups of two?
20091010 04:10:44< alink> oooh villages have "male_names"
20091010 04:10:50< shadowmaster> depends on the race.
20091010 04:12:31< shadowmaster> 5fff..
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20091010 04:14:43< Arc> oh, i think i see
20091010 04:16:45< Arc> so it .. it says "Gioniel" | "Meon" = "Gion"
20091010 04:18:36< CIA-62> alink * r39203 /trunk/src/ (menu_events.cpp widgets/menu.cpp widgets/menu.hpp): 
20091010 04:18:36< CIA-62> Remove the use of level for sorting XP (recall and unit list dialogs).
20091010 04:18:36< CIA-62> Make no sense with the current "XP needed for the next level" sorting,
20091010 04:18:36< CIA-62> make it even more harder to understand that this order is used,
20091010 04:18:36< CIA-62> and using another column as main base to sort the clicked column was bad UI.
20091010 04:20:42< Arc> or "Isól" | "Róldor" = "Isóldor"
20091010 04:20:47< Arc> it finds 2 letters that match and snips them together 
20091010 04:20:57< Arc> very neat trick!
20091010 04:23:36< CIA-62> alink * r39204 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: 
20091010 04:23:36< CIA-62> Color XP in recall dialog (as we already do for unit list)
20091010 04:23:36< CIA-62> This makes the sorting a bit more intuitive: user sees different colors,
20091010 04:23:36< CIA-62> click on the sorting arrow sorts them by brightness which has a known meaning
20091010 04:23:36< CIA-62> from XP bar color (XP needed to level up). Fix bug #14486.
20091010 04:25:59< Arc> odd question perhaps, but is the text in the menus and such a different weight?
20091010 04:28:19< alink> weight ?
20091010 04:28:45< alink> there is various font size and bold font
20091010 04:29:06< Arc> style in general
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20091010 04:29:16< Arc> im looking for a difference between the menu text and the text at the top
20091010 04:29:25< Arc> dialog text and right hand side window text
20091010 04:29:26< alink> and color which brightness may give a bigger "weight" feeling
20091010 04:30:47< Arc> by weight i mean bold extra bold book etc
20091010 04:31:36< alink> we recently switched to pango text rendering, not sure if there is still some SDL ttf in code
20091010 04:31:45< shadowmaster> alink: yes, there is.
20091010 04:31:52< shadowmaster> otherwise it'd not be a dependency anymore
20091010 04:32:15< alink> + different backgrounds may make the text look different
20091010 04:32:39< shadowmaster> alink: in fact, you are working with SDL_ttf based rendering right now in those old GUI components :p
20091010 04:33:05< alink> ah indeed I am :)
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20091010 04:37:21< Arc> i found a bug in the code that i can fix
20091010 04:37:31< Arc> should i just fix it, and who to send the patch to?
20091010 04:37:39< shadowmaster> Arc: what bug?
20091010 04:38:00< Arc> language.cpp has_language()
20091010 04:38:10< Arc> .utf8 is not the tail of the locale when there's a variant
20091010 04:38:11< shadowmaster> also, http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/PatchSubmissionGuidelines and http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/ReportingBugs
20091010 04:38:25< Arc> ie en_US.UTF-8@shaw
20091010 04:41:40< Arc> i discovered this when running locale-gen on gentoo; the proper line is:
20091010 04:41:52< Arc> en_US@shaw UTF-8
20091010 04:41:56< Arc> and then it generates:
20091010 04:42:05< Arc> *  (2/2) Generating en_US.UTF-8@shaw...                                   [ ok ]
20091010 04:42:28< Arc> so basically that function will fail if someone is running a variant without utf-8
20091010 04:43:53< Arc> that assumption is made throughout and is almost certainly going to cause problems
20091010 04:46:54< Arc> yes it does.  this is why shavian doesnt work when --dummy-locales is activated
20091010 04:49:13< shadowmaster> I listed the two relevant article above.
20091010 04:50:02< Arc> ok
20091010 04:50:12< Arc> hey you asked what bug :-)
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20091010 05:07:36< Arc> well I found the problem.  the code is using ucs2
20091010 05:07:55< Arc> thats only 16 bits wide and thus unable to handle 32-bit utf8 values
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20091010 05:14:56< Arc> wesnoth is using cairo and pango, and thus already depends on glib right?
20091010 05:17:09< CIA-62> alink * r39205 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: 
20091010 05:17:09< CIA-62> Change order columns in unit list:
20091010 05:17:09< CIA-62> Mainly sort stats by changing frequency and direct usefulness (+ some readability concern).
20091010 05:17:09< CIA-62> Put level next to XP (as done in recall dialog), MP as first stat (main use of unit list),
20091010 05:17:10< CIA-62> use status to separate numbers and make the large column (traits) in last position.
20091010 05:17:12< CIA-62> Initial sort by unit type and add possibility to sort by status.
20091010 05:26:34< CIA-62> alink * r39206 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: 
20091010 05:26:34< CIA-62> Fix never worked "invisible" status in unit list.
20091010 05:26:34< CIA-62> When there is several status icons for the same unit, sort them by severity.
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20091010 05:48:11< Sapien-X99> yo Blueblaze
20091010 05:48:51< Blueblaze> hi
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20091010 05:52:43< CIA-62> alink * r39207 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: In recall dialog, for level, use same increasing brightness as in unit list.
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20091010 09:59:50< Ivanovic> moin
20091010 10:02:33< CIA-62> ivanovic * r39208 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/en@shaw.po wesnoth-multiplayer/en@shaw.po): updated Shavian translation
20091010 10:02:44< Chusslove> Arc: There?
20091010 10:03:05< Chusslove> (A random question concerning practices in Shavian...)
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20091010 10:03:25< Ivanovic> Chusslove: you saw that espreon updated several images? (as in: maybe the tracker file has to be updated?)
20091010 10:03:52< Chusslove> Just doing my round through daily maintenance stuff :)
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20091010 10:05:14< mordante> servus
20091010 10:06:20< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20091010 10:06:24< Ivanovic> Chusslove: ahh, okay
20091010 10:06:25< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20091010 10:06:50< CIA-62> mordante * r39209 /branches/1.6/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
20091010 10:06:50< CIA-62> Fixed some gcc-4.4.1 compilation problems.
20091010 10:06:50< CIA-62> Fixes bug #14407.
20091010 10:07:14< Ivanovic> mordante: i am not sure how to *best* handle the prob with the updated date for po files
20091010 10:08:34< mordante> Ivanovic, I want to try something today, revert the change and force the msgattr to be run on the po file
20091010 10:08:39< Ivanovic> using the trick autotools use which basically is/was removing the pot-update date line and then comparing files, reverting to the old files if nothing else was changed might be a usable solution, too
20091010 10:08:54< boucman> mordante: I can't reproduce bug 14405 with current trunk, any clues ?
20091010 10:09:33< mordante> boucman, I'll first see whether it hasn't been fixed by accident ;-)
20091010 10:09:41< boucman> ok, thx
20091010 10:09:53< Ivanovic> whooo, my daily system update will take a little longer, 123 changed packages...
20091010 10:10:03< Ivanovic> (okay, the update from kde 4.3.1 to kde 4.3.2)
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20091010 10:28:56< Soliton> deleted addons are still publicly accessible until they get possibly overwritten with a newer version. is that a problem/feature?
20091010 10:29:34< Ivanovic> bug!
20091010 10:30:06< Ivanovic> (reason: reason for deletion could eg be that the addon is some kind of malware)
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20091010 10:31:25< Soliton> ok, i thought so, i'll still keep them but move them somewhere private.
20091010 10:32:04< boucman> mordante: so ?
20091010 10:32:28< mordante> boucman, I also can't reproduce it anymore, will try r38908 later
20091010 10:32:34< boucman> ok
20091010 10:43:59< zookeeper> mordante, in trunk, i seem to have noticed that at least sometimes when you have a unit selected, some dialogue pops up and you click away the last dialogue box, the game might register you as having clicked on the map too, which can lead to annoying accidental moves
20091010 10:45:38< Soliton> same when you double click to start a campaign and happen to be above a difficulty in the next dialog it will dismiss that dialog as well.
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20091010 10:52:05< mordante> zookeeper, that should be fixed since yesterday
20091010 10:54:08< mordante> Soliton, I can't reproduce that, can you test whether it's still in trunk
20091010 10:55:56< Soliton> ok.
--- Log opened Sat Oct 10 11:19:21 2009
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20091010 11:19:32-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: string/feature freeze active! | 99 bugs, 237 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091010 11:19:32-!- Topic set by wesbot [] [Sat Oct 10 04:03:33 2009]
20091010 11:19:32[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20091010 11:19:32[ AI0867   ] [ Doppp    ] [ isaac      ] [ Nayela      ] [ Soliton  ] 
20091010 11:19:32[ AnMaster ] [ EdB      ] [ Ivanovic   ] [ noy         ] [ Tigge    ] 
20091010 11:19:32[ Arc      ] [ erl_     ] [ kimrhh     ] [ Rhonda      ] [ wesbot   ] 
20091010 11:19:32[ ardesh   ] [ esr      ] [ knotwork_  ] [ rtfb        ] [ yann     ] 
20091010 11:19:32[ boucman  ] [ ettin    ] [ lobby      ] [ shadowmaster] [ zookeeper] 
20091010 11:19:32[ Chusslove] [ freim    ] [ loonybot   ] [ shikadibot  ] 
20091010 11:19:32[ CIA-62   ] [ happygrue] [ loonycyborg] [ silene      ] 
20091010 11:19:32[ dfranke_ ] [ ilor     ] [ mordante   ] [ Smar        ] 
20091010 11:19:32-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 37 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 37 normal]
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20091010 11:19:56-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20091010 11:22:29 * Soliton was just writing a new script on wesnoth.org...
20091010 11:28:11< Soliton> the only somewhat resource intensive thing i was doing was cross compiling wesnoth for windows. i wonder if that overheated something...
20091010 11:28:48< loonycyborg> I was doing the same at the same time :P
20091010 11:29:38< Soliton> heh, maybe scons can produce a lock file to prevent that?
20091010 11:31:49< loonycyborg> There's no builtin support in scons for that AFAIK.
20091010 11:31:56< mordante> boucman, I found the way to reproduce the bug again, you have time now?
20091010 11:36:52< CIA-62> silene * r39211 /trunk/src/text.cpp: Sped up conversion from Pango surface to SDL surface. (Reference compiler: gcc 4.3 on amd64.)
20091010 11:36:55< CIA-62> silene * r39212 /trunk/src/font.cpp: Switched labels and tooltips from SDL to Pango.
20091010 11:37:25< mordante> silene, do you plan to retire SDL ttf before 1.8?
20091010 11:37:32< silene> no
20091010 11:37:42< Soliton> loonycyborg: could be implemented in our scons script though?
20091010 11:37:51< mordante> :-(
20091010 11:39:44< loonycyborg> Probably it can be created in the script itself and deleted with atexit.register
20091010 11:40:55< mordante> silene, do you want to look into bug 14487 or should I?
20091010 11:41:07< loonycyborg> Though I'm not sure how to atomically create a lock file in python.
20091010 11:41:41< silene> mordante: i know what the bug is, but i don't really intend to fix it anytime soon
20091010 11:42:17< Soliton> loonycyborg: even if it is not perfectly atomically it should help in 99% of cases.
20091010 11:42:42< mordante> ok then I'll have a look later, just want to avoid both of us looking into the same bug
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20091010 11:59:34< boucman> mordante: I do now
20091010 12:00:15-!- Sapient [n=Sapient@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 12:01:04< Soliton> allefant: if the addon manager also produces the html list it connects twice to the server?
20091010 12:01:35< allefant> don't know
20091010 12:02:00< mordante> boucman, can you start DM scenario 2
20091010 12:02:15< Sapient> wesbot: seen Crab_
20091010 12:02:26< allefant> Soliton: but looks that way
20091010 12:02:28< boucman> scenario 2 is the first playable ?
20091010 12:02:28< mordante> yes
20091010 12:02:30< wesbot> Sapient: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 1d 8h ago.  20h 14m ago they left with the message: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
20091010 12:02:32< Soliton> allefant: looks like it. it also gives a different error when it can't connect. :-P
20091010 12:02:42< boucman> "this valley belongs to me"
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20091010 12:02:54< Soliton> allefant: i suppose it's not easy to avoid that?
20091010 12:03:04< boucman> ok, i'm at mehor's first talk line
20091010 12:03:07< allefant> probably not
20091010 12:03:15< mordante> boucman, then move methor to 21,19 and you see the glitch, if you undo the move you see more glitches
20091010 12:03:20< allefant> Soliton: what other option do you want to use togehter with --html?
20091010 12:03:38< boucman> mordante: after the whole intro talk ?
20091010 12:03:43< mordante> yes
20091010 12:03:55< Soliton> allefant: the options i use for the web interface: --download='.*' -c $ADDONFILES/unpacked --html=$ADDONLIST --url=$URL --tar=$ADDONFILES
20091010 12:04:06< mordante> I think the bug can also be reproduced in the test scenario but found it here
20091010 12:04:23< boucman> ok, reproduced
20091010 12:04:31< mordante> good
20091010 12:04:35< Soliton> allefant: so html and update/download is the issue i guess.
20091010 12:08:44< boucman> mordante: this halo is not handled by the animation engine...
20091010 12:08:52< boucman> it's in unit.cpp around line 1805
20091010 12:09:04< boucman> and probably a badly refreshed hex
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20091010 12:11:12< mordante> boucman, so the halo is handled by the halo engine?
20091010 12:11:26< boucman> yes afaict
20091010 12:11:48< boucman> (i'm still studying it, but reading the cfg+code, it's a unit halo, not an animation halo...
20091010 12:12:09< boucman> wait a sec...
20091010 12:12:28< boucman> when we move a unit we make a temporary unit and move the temporary unit...
20091010 12:12:45< boucman> maybe the bad refresh is caused by the old unit still being here but hidden
20091010 12:13:08< CIA-62> elias * r39213 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth_addon_manager: [wesnoth_addon_manager] try to connect only once to the server when --html is used in parallel to --download/--list/--update
20091010 12:13:12< allefant> Soliton: i tried to make it connect only once, but it's untested
20091010 12:13:28< Soliton> allefant: cool, i'll test.
20091010 12:14:10< boucman> mordante: when a unit gets hidden, we correctly call unit::clear_haloes() which does a halo::remove
20091010 12:14:29< boucman> does halo::remove correctly mark for redraw the hex where the halo was ?
20091010 12:16:50< Soliton> allefant: looks good.
20091010 12:16:58< boucman> mordante: ok, I have a new symptom
20091010 12:17:14< boucman> zoom in heavily and use the :sunset command
20091010 12:17:31< boucman> you will notice that the mage's halo is draw out of the refresh zone...
20091010 12:17:43< boucman> apparently the halo routines don't manage well with zooms
20091010 12:26:08< mordante> boucman, only happens if I zoom out completely but if I zoom in or out only a bit all looks good
20091010 12:26:21< mordante> not sure how important these extreme cases are
20091010 12:26:35< boucman> mordante: i observe all sorts of weird stuff with the halo invalidation right now
20091010 12:26:44< mordante> :-(
20091010 12:27:00< boucman> none of them are criticall, but (hopefully) they could be the manifestation of a single bug...
20091010 12:27:23< boucman> for instance the "redraw square" for the halo sometime doesn't seem to take castle elevation into account
20091010 12:27:53< boucman> when moving, there seems to be no invalidation due to haloes, only the mvt anim hex are invalidated, and the square doesn't seem to slide at all
20091010 12:28:17< boucman> my overall analysis would be that when we move a halo, we don't mark the old position for redraw correctly
20091010 12:28:22< mordante> odd this all used to work, at least I'm quite sure it did
20091010 12:28:50< boucman> if it makes you feel better, i've been running into animation invalidation problems since 1.2
20091010 12:29:06< boucman> and for every stable version I was 100% sure I had chased all of them :P
20091010 12:30:33< mordante> :-)
20091010 12:31:03< mordante> still I'm quite sure it's a regression, I've seen no other reports about it and it's too ugly not to get reported
20091010 12:31:16< mordante> off for lunch
20091010 12:31:27< boucman> mordante: before you leave...
20091010 12:31:36< boucman> will you hunt the bug ? or should I
20091010 12:31:57< boucman> I don't really know the halo engine, so I could help, but hunting by myself would be very long
20091010 12:32:55< Sapient> Crab_: since the AI is probably avoiding a small number of locations, and there will likely be x,y attributes in the filter (if any), I'd say that calling get_locations() once at the beginning of the turn would be the faster general approach
20091010 12:33:22< Ivanovic> Sapient: have you done the stuff that leslie/ellen asked to be done on the mentor ml?
20091010 12:33:32< Ivanovic> that is: have either you or yogihh done this?
20091010 12:33:36< Sapient> get_locations() may be much faster than calling match() for all locations, especially then x,y= attributes are specified
20091010 12:33:50< Ivanovic> cf the mail with the topic "Reminder: Mentor Summit Preparation Form Due Today for Attendees"
20091010 12:34:14< Sapient> Ivanovic: I'm not on th mailing list
20091010 12:34:18< Sapient> link?
20091010 12:34:26< mordante> boucman, I will have a short look later, but my plate is rather full...
20091010 12:34:42< mordante> at least want to check whether or not it's a regression
20091010 12:34:46< Ivanovic> http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-mentors-list/browse_thread/thread/cdfc6f8f444dc164?hl=en
20091010 12:34:49< boucman> ok, I'll try to refine my diagnosis in the mean time...
20091010 12:34:54< boucman> and i'll test with 1.6
20091010 12:34:57< mordante> the bisection might be easy to do
20091010 12:35:09< mordante> ok
20091010 12:35:30< Sapient> Ivanovic: yes, I filled that out several days ago. Thanks
20091010 12:35:34< Ivanovic> Sapient: okay
20091010 12:36:29< Sapient> Crab_: when x,y= are not specified and only a few locations are to be tested, match() would be preferred
20091010 12:37:32< boucman> mordante: other bugs in 1.6, not the same ones
20091010 12:39:11< Sapient> Crab_: the caching features are rather limited, and only prevent terrain="..." strings from being reparsed and [filter_adjacent] from being re-evaluated on the same hex
20091010 12:39:55< Sapient> premature optimization being root of all evil, that was as far as I felt the need to go at the time ;)
20091010 12:40:49< Sapient> but if you are seeking to speed it up for special cases, I'm sure there's lots of room for that
20091010 12:41:51< boucman> optimization is a good thing, once it's not premature ;)
20091010 12:42:41< Sapient> yeah, I don't like doing double-work, so I try to not force my code to do it either ;)
20091010 12:45:55< CIA-62> silene * r39214 /trunk/src/ (sound_music_track.cpp sound_music_track.hpp): Removed unused constructor sound::music_track.
20091010 12:47:30< boucman> thespaceinvader: ping
20091010 12:47:49< boucman> thespaceinvader: did we consider what happens when a drake with leadership  is on water ?
20091010 12:49:25< thespaceinvader> boucman: no, not yet
20091010 12:49:30< Sapient> then the enemy will charge him with a horseman
20091010 12:49:40< thespaceinvader> mainly because we haven't made any leadership animations yet
20091010 12:49:53< Soliton> YogiHH: is there a reason why the multiplayer tag (bad name btw cause there already is one) is specifically removed from replay_start and not just used from there? the server just writes the whole level (including the multiplayer tag) into replay_start tag and i don't see why that needs to be complicated.
20091010 12:50:30< boucman> well, it would be cool if you could do some rapid testing and tell me if you want some landing at some point, or if we go for "flying and leading" animation
20091010 13:00:26< CIA-62> loonycyborg * r39215 /trunk/SConstruct: 
20091010 13:00:26< CIA-62> Added 'lockfile' option to scons
20091010 13:00:26< CIA-62> It uses a lockfile to prevent multiple instances of scons from being run
20091010 13:00:26< CIA-62> in the same working copy at the same time.
20091010 13:02:00< Soliton> \o/
20091010 13:02:26< loonycyborg> I've enabled it for wesnoth-mingw32 checkout.
20091010 13:02:42< loonycyborg> It should be even atomic unless on NFS :P
20091010 13:03:16< Soliton> excellent.
20091010 13:05:38< Soliton> might be even a good idea to enable by default? i can't really imagine where it would hurt.
20091010 13:06:33< loonycyborg> It may not work on older versions of glibc due to using 'x' mode of fopen
20091010 13:06:56< Soliton> ahh.
20091010 13:11:29< mordante> boucman, back some news about the halo bug?
20091010 13:12:10< CIA-62> mordante * r39216 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/window.cpp: Make showing a dialog exception safe.
20091010 13:12:16< CIA-62> mordante * r39217 /trunk/src/game.cpp: 
20091010 13:12:16< CIA-62> When an addon has invalid markup show an error.
20091010 13:12:16< CIA-62> Espreon discovered the issue with his addon.
20091010 13:13:50< boucman> mordante: not much
20091010 13:14:02< boucman> it's not there in 1.6, there are other haloes bug though...
20091010 13:14:13< mordante> a big one?
20091010 13:14:18< CIA-62> mordante * r39218 /trunk/ (RELEASE_NOTES changelog): Changelog and release notes update.
20091010 13:14:25< boucman> i'm not sure how haloes work, but it seems to try to be smart about when to cause a refresh
20091010 13:14:28< boucman> no, nothing major
20091010 13:14:44< boucman> and when a unit moves, this algorithm seems not to trigger...
20091010 13:15:54< mordante> it indeed tries to be smart so it won't cause too much redraws
20091010 13:16:08< boucman> make sense...
20091010 13:16:15< mordante> didn
20091010 13:16:35< mordante> didn't the unit trigger the halo redraw when moving in the past?
20091010 13:17:01< boucman> not sure, do we need an explicit call to do that ?
20091010 13:17:13< mordante> I think I'll bisect and try to find the cause of the major regression
20091010 13:17:26< mordante> I think the unit did in the past, around 1.4
20091010 13:17:37< boucman> the block of code starting  unit.cpp:1835 is most of the halo code in the unit
20091010 13:18:16< boucman> I am suprised that calling set_location doesn't cause a redraw...
20091010 13:18:37 * mordante too
20091010 13:18:56< boucman> mordante: an idea to test...
20091010 13:19:14< boucman> instead of using set_location, remove and readd the halo, if it fixes the bug we'll have a good clue
20091010 13:21:47< mordante> indeed
20091010 13:28:13< mordante> the move part of the bug is less than 1000 commits old the undo bug is still there
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20091010 13:30:46< thespaceinvader> boucman: sorry, went for lunch.  but probably, we'll only want one leading animation, which, given that the units will default to standing for must purposes, will be done on land rather than flying
20091010 13:31:05< thespaceinvader> so we will need the unit to be on land for its leadership phases
20091010 13:31:17< thespaceinvader> i wonder whether we might be better only having it fly for movement...
20091010 13:31:34< boucman> ok, so the pre-fight and post-fight should be called for leaders/supporters too
20091010 13:31:56< boucman> thespaceinvader: doing a lead+fly anim shouldn't be that tricky, I guess
20091010 13:32:24< boucman> hmm
20091010 13:32:24< thespaceinvader> mm, probably not, but it might be a bit difficult to see during the flight
20091010 13:32:36< thespaceinvader> and it would depend on the leadership and flight syncing properly
20091010 13:33:03< boucman> thespaceinvader: the thing, if we make him land, is that he won't be using his normal standing anim while the oponent attacks (since the normal standing is the flying one
20091010 13:33:18< boucman> so maybe make him land on each strike ?
20091010 13:33:31< thespaceinvader> for each strike he leads for?
20091010 13:33:34< boucman> (which is just like having a different anim when on water, except with less drawing)
20091010 13:33:38< boucman> yes
20091010 13:34:06< thespaceinvader> oh, this is complicated, i hadn't thought of this
20091010 13:34:22< boucman> :)
20091010 13:34:29< boucman> that's why we do teamwork ;)
20091010 13:34:31< thespaceinvader> i suspect the most expedient course may well be to make the leading drakes stand on the ground all the time except when moving
20091010 13:35:30< thespaceinvader> but i don't know how/if that interacts with the is_flying tag
20091010 13:35:40< thespaceinvader> i'm not even sure we use that any more...
20091010 13:35:51< boucman> i'm not sure the is_flying flag is used at all...
20091010 13:36:32< thespaceinvader> hmm, that shouldn't cause issues then
20091010 13:36:35< thespaceinvader> i'll speak with jet
20091010 13:36:42< thespaceinvader> since expedience is Good in this case
20091010 13:37:07< boucman> if is_flying is causing problems, come and discuss it with me, it's probably a anim side bug/missing feature
20091010 13:47:03< thespaceinvader> boucman: sure will
20091010 13:47:06< thespaceinvader> i'll let you know
20091010 13:47:12< thespaceinvader> damn being so busy >.<
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20091010 14:13:00< Soliton> allefant: i get "Fatal: Unit id "Skeleton Rider" already exists - either it has to be renamed, or there's a bug in this script." when parsing utbs but can only see one unit with that id. however liberty has a unit with the same id. looks like something needs to be reset between parsing different campaigns?
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20091010 14:14:34< silene> mordante: the ok buttons of wml [message] boxes have become rather plain
20091010 14:15:39< boucman> hmm
20091010 14:15:57< boucman> a female elvish archer became a male during her idle anim... 
20091010 14:16:39< Soliton> we don't judge.
20091010 14:16:40< mordante> boucman, I assigned the bug to the right person :-P bug introduced by r38335 pre_movement_anim and post_movement_anim for drake take-off and landing
20091010 14:17:06< boucman> mordante: ???
20091010 14:17:18< Soliton> mordante: click through still happens.
20091010 14:17:20< boucman> that's the one that caused the "not erased" botom halo ???
20091010 14:17:52< Soliton> mordante: double click tsg so that your mouse is above one of the difficulty buttons and you start the campaign right away.
20091010 14:18:54< mordante> boucman, yes to one where the white mage halo looks bad on the village
20091010 14:19:24< mordante> silene, I'm not too unhappy with them, but best the it up with freim 
20091010 14:19:44< boucman> no idea how these could cause that sort of problems, checking...
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20091010 14:22:37< allefant> Soliton: yes, unit ids must be unique (over all addons)
20091010 14:22:56< allefant> because some addons depend on core (or other addons?)
20091010 14:23:29< Soliton> allefant: campaigns are not core.
20091010 14:23:46< allefant> e.g. if unit ids are reset, then an addon could not depend on an era... no idea if that should be possible or not
20091010 14:23:54< Soliton> campaigns have their seperate namespace.
20091010 14:24:08< allefant> i see, could change it then
20091010 14:25:43< allefant> so unique ids are [[core + all addon eras] + campaign] for each campaign?
20091010 14:27:10< mordante> Soliton, sorry but works for me here
20091010 14:27:41< Soliton> allefant: core + ifdef MULTIPLAYER and core + ifdef CAMPAIGN basically.
20091010 14:28:05< mordante> both above the difficulty list and above the ok button
20091010 14:28:08< Ivanovic> mordante, loonycyborg: what is the current status of the "LANGUAGE=" fallback?
20091010 14:28:29-!- EdB [n=edb@183.117.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091010 14:28:51< Ivanovic> mordante, loonycyborg: somehow i think those that don't have a "full" locale behind them should somehow be marked, eg using a slightly different fontcolor (light grey instead of white)
20091010 14:29:55< Sapient> have fun, cya later
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20091010 14:30:33< mordante> Ivanovic, haven't looked furter at it, first want to know which way to go and whether it can be implemented before 1.8
20091010 14:31:02< Ivanovic> yes, it *should* be implemented before 1.8 since this would remove the need for an ugly hack (dummylocales)
20091010 14:31:11< mordante> and at the moment I want to work on the event handling otherwise I'll never finish it
20091010 14:31:16< Ivanovic> :)
20091010 14:31:20< Soliton> allefant: there is the special case of mp campaigns which probably also share all of their units with all other mp addons.
20091010 14:31:32< mordante> I rather do something small like this in an evening
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20091010 14:40:57< Arc> mordante: you saw my addendum to the bug?
20091010 14:41:08-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 14:41:18< Arc> i would attempt a fix myself but I'm not a C++ programmer, just python C and vala
20091010 14:42:09< Arc> and im not sure how relevant the code is anyways given that you're moving to pango and it seems to replace (crudely) what pango provides
20091010 14:42:20< allefant> Soliton: I think best would be to keep them unique...
20091010 14:42:54< allefant> no special cases or anything required then
20091010 14:42:56< Soliton> allefant: well, i plan to fix it for mainline but for umc... that's not how wesnoth works.
20091010 14:43:31< Soliton> but if it's too difficult to change so be it.
20091010 14:43:47< Arc> also --dummylocales is broken, it 1) incorrectly tries .utf-8 at the end of the locale, when it belongs before the variant, and 2) tries to add @wesnoth to the end regardless of what it currently is
20091010 14:45:12< Arc> LANG=en_US.UTF-8@shaw is the format; language (which may be three characters btw), "_",  country (ditto), "@", varient (any length), ".", encoding
20091010 14:45:19< Soliton> zookeeper: click through still happening for you with a new build?
20091010 14:46:08< Arc> "wesnoth" could easily be added to an existing variant if the locale is broken apart first, parsed, and then reconstructed
20091010 14:47:13< mordante> Arc, yes already had a short look but haven't found a solution yet
20091010 14:47:30< mordante> also have some other higher priority items I'm working on at the moment
20091010 14:47:54< Arc> instead of rendering each glyph using an iterator, would it be acceptable to just render the entire string with pango?
20091010 14:48:19< mordante> in the end it should move to pango, but not sure how easy it is to do with that part of the code
20091010 14:48:30< mordante> my work on the gui is rewriting everything
20091010 14:48:48< Arc> *nod*
20091010 14:49:18< mordante> regarding dummylocales it probably won't be fixed since loonycyborg had some ideas how to drop dummylocales
20091010 14:49:27< Arc> ok
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20091010 14:50:42< Soliton> zookeeper: there is a skeleton rider in liberty and utbs. would be good to synchronise the two or maybe better move it to core.
20091010 14:51:04< boucman> wesbot: log 38335
20091010 14:51:05< wesbot> boucman * r38335 : new animations : pre_movement_anim and post_movement_anim for drake take-off and landing
20091010 14:51:08< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=38335
20091010 14:53:33< Arc> on the issue of locales, since you're already using pango, you depend on glib; g_get_language_names () is thus available to you
20091010 14:54:02< Arc> it returns a string array of all the acceptable locales on a system
20091010 14:54:42< Soliton> allefant: duplicate ids then also don't get added for that addon? would be nice to do that even if the resulting unit it'll show might be different then.
20091010 14:55:10< Arc> you don't need to muck with environmental variables or option parsing, it gives you each one that you can use
20091010 14:56:50< mordante> not entirely true, you can link wesnoth to a static version of pango, which doesn't export g_get_language_names
20091010 14:57:50< mordante> if we want to use that function we should really depend on glib and not hope it gets pulled in
20091010 14:58:26< mordante> but I'm not against that change
20091010 14:59:18< loonycyborg> If you're using pango, you're already using glib.
20091010 15:00:01< mordante> I know, but some people use static linking
20091010 15:00:05< loonycyborg> E.g. you deallocate some pango's objects using glib calls.
20091010 15:00:39< Arc> yea
20091010 15:00:52< Arc> it's not just a remote dependency, pango is integrated pretty heavily
20091010 15:01:17< Arc> and i think you'll find glib has a lot of other cross platform functions that are already optimized and work well that can be used all over
20091010 15:01:34< Arc> cairo was our gateway drug into glib.  we ended up switching to Vala to use gobjects :-)
20091010 15:03:26< loonycyborg> mordante: or perhaps g_get_language_names somehow disappears if you link glib statically? :P
20091010 15:03:46< boucman> mordante: I have reverted all the changes, but I still see the bug you sure of your bisection ? are we checking the same thing ?
20091010 15:04:49< mordante> loonycyborg, I doubt pango exports it when you link it statically against glib after which you can delete glib
20091010 15:05:10< mordante> loonycyborg, so if we want to use the function the build systems should check whether glib is available
20091010 15:06:40< mordante> boucman, not sure then, but I check whether the halo on the village looks properly which git blames that revision on
20091010 15:08:01< boucman> not sure what you mean
20091010 15:08:45< mordante> then I guess you look at something differently :-P will try to get a screenshot
20091010 15:09:22< loonycyborg> mordante: I'm not even sure whether you can do that..
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20091010 15:10:14< boucman> I move the MoL down, then undo the move, I have a chunk of halo that stays behind for a split second
20091010 15:10:38< loonycyborg> Unless that function is removed for static builds only with conditional compilation, it should always be available if glib is linked in either as direct or indirect dependency..
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20091010 15:15:50< mordante> loonycyborg, I'm quite sure you can, it's just a bad idea to assume some library pulls in another one if you're going to depend on it
20091010 15:19:43< mordante> boucman, directly after moving http://imagebin.org/66987 and shortly later after a redraw is triggered http://imagebin.org/66988
20091010 15:20:08< mordante> it looks like in the first screenshot the halo is drawn twice on top of eachother except on the village
20091010 15:20:17< boucman> ok, totally different glitch indeed :)
20091010 15:20:47< boucman> i'll have a look later, I must leave in a minute or so...
20091010 15:20:52< boucman> did you see my glitch ?
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20091010 15:22:09< mordante> I have the undo item as well, but haven't tested that one further
20091010 15:22:24< mordante> boucman, is that undone bug in 1.6 or didn't you test that
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20091010 15:22:29< mordante> undo*
20091010 15:22:34< boucman> not in 1.6
20091010 15:22:55< boucman> and i don't think it's link to undo, it's just the way I tested it
20091010 15:23:15< mordante> I'm not sure but I can also trigger it via undo
20091010 15:23:15< boucman> I think it's linked to moving up (maybe up into a castle, but I'm not sure)
20091010 15:23:23< boucman> ok
20091010 15:24:18< boucman> the glitch you saw is due to a redraw with both the real unit and the temporary unit... unfortunately it's very hard to prevent because you need to have no redraw between erasing the temp unit and drawing the real one
20091010 15:25:11< mordante> regarding the undo, can it be undo only invalidates the unit and not its halo, I have it on a flat terrain as well
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20091010 15:25:27< mordante> and it's just the part outside the 7 unit hexes
20091010 15:27:38< boucman> mordante: there is no 7 hex limit in the animation code anymore, we invalidate based on image sizes and position...
20091010 15:29:29< mordante> boucman, I know but it still feels like the start of movement invalidates 7 hexes
20091010 15:29:43< mordante> I can also trigger that bug when starting movement
20091010 15:32:20< boucman> mordante: afknow, probably until tomorow, wecan discuss it then/you can add your findings in the bug (esp the fact that we have two bugs in one)
20091010 15:33:52< mordante> boucman, ok, but I think the regression caused by r38335 is more important
20091010 15:34:09< mordante> shall I post another bug report for the second issue?
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20091010 15:55:29< silene> mordante: then perhaps there is a bug with them if the current look of the buttons is intended; because they are just gray for me
20091010 15:58:49< mordante> silene, those gray transparent buttons are new freim committed them yesterday
20091010 16:01:58< silene> mordante: can you confirm it is supposed to look like that? http://imagebin.org/66990
20091010 16:03:33-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 101 bugs, 237 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091010 16:03:50< mordante> silene, confirmed
20091010 16:04:14< silene> freim: the new buttons are a bit ugly
20091010 16:06:16< silene> (and i doubt i'm the only one having visual troubles with text written without any contrast)
20091010 16:14:00-!- Crab_ [i=crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 16:24:26< Crab_> Sapient: yes, it was already noted by alink. I've overestimated SLF caching capabilities, and I'll rework code to extract the set of all locations before actually using it (that'll be once-per-turn in default case)
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20091010 16:27:23< Arc> Chusslove: whats your question?
20091010 16:27:57< Arc> "Shavian" is english, if you pronounce the words you're speaking english, so all the rules remain the same.
20091010 16:28:00< Chusslove> Arc: I saw this image: http://marnanel.org/shavian/epiphany1
20091010 16:28:33< Arc> yes, that's Thomas's site, who is on the ubuntu shavian team
20091010 16:28:38< Chusslove> ...and wonder if e.g. "GNOME" in license text has been left untransliterated intentionally?
20091010 16:28:57< Arc> nope, that was just an early example
20091010 16:29:00< Chusslove> More generally, don't tell me that in Shavian proper names are kept as-is?
20091010 16:29:10< Chusslove> (as-is = Latin)
20091010 16:29:23< Arc> no in shavin we prefix proper names with a namer dot (·)
20091010 16:29:33< Chusslove> And then? :)
20091010 16:29:39< Arc> so GNOME is ·𐑜𐑯𐑴𐑥
20091010 16:29:51< Chusslove> Great. That's all I wanted to hear.
20091010 16:29:52< Arc> that is Guh-NOh-M
20091010 16:30:07< Arc> basically that mock-up was done using his translation dictionary, which despite 120k words is incomplete
20091010 16:31:04< Arc> i've added a few hundred words to it just for wesnoth, but have the script mark #, fuzzy any phrases that it's not 100% on and then edit them by hand, often having to manually transliterate proper names
20091010 16:32:00< Chusslove> Ah, one other thing. Say you hit a name like... "Qian Xuesen" -- what do you do then in en/Shavian?
20091010 16:33:07< Arc> en@shaw - we manually transliterate it to ·𐑒𐑵𐑰𐑨𐑯 ·𐑟𐑵𐑕𐑧𐑯
20091010 16:33:13< Arc> i think thats right
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20091010 16:33:44< Arc> we don't care about the spelling, we care about how it sounds.  the english spelling is meaningless
20091010 16:34:14-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@217.190.237.186] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 16:34:21< Arc> en@shaw - we manually transliterate it to ·𐑒𐑵𐑰𐑨𐑯 ·𐑟𐑵𐑕𐑧𐑯
20091010 16:34:24< Arc> i think thats right
20091010 16:34:24-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@217.190.237.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091010 16:34:26< Arc> we don't care about the spelling, we care about how it sounds.  the english spelling is meaningless
20091010 16:36:05-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@217.190.237.186] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 16:36:28< Arc> Chusslove: did you get that?
20091010 16:36:43< loonycyborg> Arc: Why does shavian has such weird font that is totally unlike any latin-derived alphabets? :P
20091010 16:36:58< Chusslove> My Konversetion crashed twice... damn. Lest thin I got is: en@shaw - we manually transliterate...
20091010 16:37:01< Arc> because latin sucks
20091010 16:37:08< Arc> we don't care about the spelling, we care about how it sounds.  the english spelling is meaningless
20091010 16:37:21< loonycyborg> Then why not just use IPA?
20091010 16:37:35< Chusslove> Arc: Did you say something after that? Because I've got a follow up question?
20091010 16:37:36< Arc> loonycyborg: the alphabet was designed to be very easy to write and quickly discernable 
20091010 16:37:51< mordante> Chusslove, irclog.wesnoth.org ;-)
20091010 16:37:54< Arc> Chusslove: yes i said "we don't care about the spelling"
20091010 16:37:54-!- allefant [n=elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091010 16:38:15< Arc> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shavian.htm is the alphabet.  bold letters are the parts pronounced
20091010 16:38:26< Chusslove> Good. Next one is: for "Qian Xuesen", *how* do you know how to transliterate it?
20091010 16:38:48< Arc> i have a dvorak-shaw keymap (still in beta) that switches between latin and shaw with the capslock - the first real use of the capslock ive found yet
20091010 16:38:50< Chusslove> It's pinyin, cannot follow English rules.
20091010 16:39:13< Arc> Chusslove: I sound it out the best I can.  there's no hard rules for a lot of it
20091010 16:39:21< Chusslove> Ok.
20091010 16:39:45< Arc> sometimes "es" on the end of a word is 𐑕 sometimes it's 𐑟 and it's completely arbitrary whether the sound is more like a s or a z (soft or vocal)
20091010 16:40:40< CIA-62> ivanovic * r39219 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/en@shaw.po wesnoth-tutorial/en@shaw.po): updated Shavian translation
20091010 16:40:44< Arc> except for the 𐑙𐑣 pair all "tall" letters are consonants without the use of vocal chords, while their "deep" alternatives (flipped 180) are the same sound with vocal chords.  on the keyboard the deep are the same letter using shift
20091010 16:41:18< Arc> 𐑙 is "ng" and 𐑣 is "h"
20091010 16:41:41< Aethaeryn> < Arc> i have a dvorak-shaw keymap (still in beta) that switches between latin and shaw with the capslock - the first real use of the capslock ive found yet <- wow, that's actually pretty useful. I've always held SHIFT if I wanted to capitalize a word because it actually is more effort to hit caps lock.
20091010 16:41:50< loonycyborg> Since I'm not a native English speaker. you don't have to tell me how far pronunciation is far from spelling :P
20091010 16:41:56< Aethaeryn> More unnatural on the pinky and you have to hit it twice.
20091010 16:42:07< Arc> Aethaeryn: I know.  I call my shiftlock "shawlock" :-)
20091010 16:42:26< Arc> you don't want it on, ie, pause/break because thats harder to hit
20091010 16:42:42< Aethaeryn> My one problem is that I can type 100+ words per minute in the Latin alphabet. I'd assume another alphabet or even keyboard map and I would be back down to 20... :P
20091010 16:43:09< loonycyborg> Russian spelling is a *lot* more phonetic than english.
20091010 16:43:10< Arc> it's pretty nice to be able to 𐑖𐑦𐑓𐑑 𐑦𐑯𐑑𐑵 ·𐑖𐑷 𐑯 back
20091010 16:43:41< Aethaeryn> loonycyborg: I think most spelling is more phonetic than English.
20091010 16:44:14< Aethaeryn> English is a Germanic language using a Latin alphabet with loanwords from French that don't sound like French and loanwords from Greek/Latin that aren't pronounced like the Greeks and Romans pronounced 'em.
20091010 16:44:22< Chusslove> Arc: Regarding "dvorak-shaw keymap (still in beta) that switches between latin and shaw with the capslock"...
20091010 16:44:39< Chusslove> You don't need to build in the switcher into the layout.
20091010 16:44:46< Arc> Aethaeryn: well you could learn.  im actually about to switch two keys on this keymap that i misplaced.  i used the Androcles and the Lion book (the only one ever published in shavian text) to determine glyph frequency and map them in accordance with August Dvorak's metrics
20091010 16:44:52< Arc> Chusslove: I know, but I wanted to.
20091010 16:45:35< Chusslove> Caps Lock and many other are available to choose from in x keyboard config, so that anyone can choose.
20091010 16:45:54< Arc> yes it is, but then you have to set that up on every system, vs just copying this one file
20091010 16:46:08< Chusslove> Like, I use Alt+Space, someone may do Alt+Alt, etc.
20091010 16:46:10< Arc> xkb supports "groups", when its something like this we might as well use them
20091010 16:46:44< Chusslove> What do you mean by "something like this"? It's just a layout.
20091010 16:46:56< Arc> even if you're typing in just shaw you still need to switch to type acronyms
20091010 16:47:03< Chusslove> So if you want to push it to XKeyboardConfig, groups and hardcoding switcher are no-no.
20091010 16:47:23< Chusslove> Why do you need to switch to type acronyms?
20091010 16:47:31< Chusslove> So acronyms are exception? :)
20091010 16:47:51< Chusslove> (are except*ed* from transliteration?)
20091010 16:51:23< Aethaeryn> What about acronyms that used to be acronyms that now stand for nothing? GNOME, KFC (until rather recently; now it has a meaning again), etc.
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20091010 17:20:38< euschn> shadowmaster: I have been looking into https://gna.org/bugs/?14460 , but didnt manage to fix it yet. I can reproduce it, but I never get the assertion failure you posted - only a "terminate after throwing an instance of game::load_game_exception". how did you get that message?
20091010 17:21:14< euschn> silene: concerning your comment on the bug above, I dont think loadgame::show_dialog erasing the gamestate is the source of the bug
20091010 17:21:52< euschn> this is the intended behavior when savegames are loaded. additionally, the bug still exists even if i comment the gamestate destroying lines
20091010 17:23:24< Soliton> i got that assert a couple of times as well when loading before the scenario start finished or something.
20091010 17:24:16< euschn> Soliton: weird, I tried this several times now and havent got it yet
20091010 17:24:58< Soliton> euschn: you're on windows?
20091010 17:25:12< euschn> Soliton: no, kubuntu
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20091010 17:36:38< CIA-62> mordante * r39220 /trunk/src/gui/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
20091010 17:36:38< CIA-62> Add a signal handler fired upon destruction.
20091010 17:36:38< CIA-62> This way a widget notifies all it's parents of it's departure.
20091010 17:36:38< CIA-62> In order to allow this event a new signal type is used.
20091010 17:36:49< CIA-62> mordante * r39221 /trunk/src/gui/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
20091010 17:36:49< CIA-62> Create new events for getting and losing focus.
20091010 17:36:49< CIA-62> Uses the new notifications to send the events, this means only the
20091010 17:36:49< CIA-62> widget getting or losing the focus gets the event not it's parents.
20091010 17:36:50< CIA-62> Also comment out the old code to handle mouse focus.
20091010 17:48:12< Aethaeryn> Is it possible to do variants other than geneder?
20091010 17:48:19< Aethaeryn> *gender
20091010 17:50:18< freim> silene: revert the commit then
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20091010 18:19:59< CIA-62> silene * r39222 /trunk/src/ (soundsource.cpp soundsource.hpp): Removed unused members sound_source::*::add_location.
20091010 18:20:06< CIA-62> silene * r39223 /trunk/src/ (key.cpp key.hpp): Removed unused members of class CKey.
20091010 18:20:11< CIA-62> silene * r39224 /trunk/images/buttons/ (4 files): 
20091010 18:20:11< CIA-62> Reverted commit 39188 so that WML [message] buttons show light text on dark background.
20091010 18:20:11< CIA-62> The current situation (light text on light background) makes it impossible for people with low contrast sensibility to read the text of the buttons.
20091010 18:20:11< CIA-62> (I suppose the current situation also affects people using poor LCD displays, since the buttons are usually displayed at the bottom of the screen, where the contrast for light colors is the worst.)
20091010 18:22:26< Soliton> Aethaeryn: sure, check Kaleh.
20091010 18:51:42< Soliton> reproducable crash when an attacker gets killed by WML and takes the defenders place (in an attacker_hits event) at the attack_end event: http://nopaste.com/p/au7HRHYT1
20091010 18:52:28< Aethaeryn> Crab_: AI problem...
20091010 18:53:57< Aethaeryn> I'm working on scenario 1 for Thunderstone, and it works great if you play it as you're intended to play it. Basically, orcs are attacking the outpost and they're mostly in the northeast area, you're in the southwest, and your ally is in the center...
20091010 18:54:54< Aethaeryn> If you play it as intended and go fight the enemy, it's pretty tough to win and you need the reinforcements you're given at turn 10. If you just sit back (not even recruiting) and let your ally die, the orcs just sit on the outpost they took from your ally instead of moving forward to attack (even if you have recruited nothing), allowing you to counter-attack and slaughter them all... or even just sit and wait until the end of 
20091010 18:55:11< Aethaeryn> They just sit there, instead of moving forward toward you.
20091010 18:56:07< Aethaeryn> In fact, they all cluster just north of the outpost.
20091010 18:56:30< Aethaeryn> Is there a way to make the AI really, *really*, want to kill your leader at all costs?
20091010 18:56:43< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I'll take a look, but later (watching football atm), can you post the scenario ? 
20091010 18:57:00< Crab_> 'a way to make the AI really, *really*, want to kill your leader at all costs' -> village_value 0, leader_value SOMETHING_BIG
20091010 18:57:56< silene> Soliton: i may have a fix, do you have a testcase at hand?
20091010 19:02:47< Soliton> silene: http://files.wesnoth.org/soliton/Tri-Rebirth_Turn_16.gz  you probably need trinity and/or bad moon rising to get the units.
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20091010 19:07:12< Crab_> Aethaeryn: also, you can try adding explicit goals to enemy ai
20091010 19:07:20< Crab_> Aethaeryn: i.e. 'target all units of side 1'
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20091010 19:12:33< silene> Soliton: error 403
20091010 19:12:54< Soliton> silene: sorry, fixed.
20091010 19:12:55< Aethaeryn> Is the Wesnoth website being extremely laggy for anyone else?
20091010 19:13:31< silene> it is for me
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20091010 19:26:24< ilor> anyone have an idea for a larger (easily more than twice the workload of GSoC) standalone Wesnoth-related project? :)
20091010 19:26:45< Aethaeryn> Crab_: ok, I'm going to try to apply some of those to try to get the AI to be more aggressive toward an extremely defensive player 1.
20091010 19:27:20< Aethaeryn> The first step was getting the scenario playable to the half-way mark... Now the second step is making it so you actually have to recruit and do stuff instead of just sitting and letting your allies die like I did. :P
20091010 19:28:02< Aethaeryn> ilor: What area of Wesnoth?
20091010 19:28:14< Aethaeryn> It's a big project.
20091010 19:29:33< blarumyrran> the UI capabilities!
20091010 19:29:43< ilor> Aethaeryn: it needs to be more of a standalone project than a maintenane job, otherwise I don't have much 
20091010 19:30:10< Sirp> ilor: well it depends what you mean by 'standalone'. Ideas would include a new AI ... a more sophisticated multiplayer server (perhaps including one that does all processing on the server side...) ... an editor that facilitates more WML generation
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20091010 19:30:36< Sirp> for something that definitely isn't standalone, 'port Wesnoth to opengl'
20091010 19:30:44< silene> ilor: an opengl backend to reduce the graphic cost
20091010 19:30:58< ilor> there's this "designing information systems" course I'll be doing over the next two semesters that basically involves designing a system for one semester with lots of formal requirements and designs
20091010 19:31:02< silene> Sirp: hum...
20091010 19:31:12< Aethaeryn> ilor: Is someone already rewriting the add-on server and interface? There's a cool mockup that's on the wiki, but it's been just a mockup for a long time.
20091010 19:31:13< ilor> and implementing it in the second semester, all done in teams of about four people
20091010 19:31:29< blarumyrran> Werent you guys opposed to opengl because of dependencies or something?
20091010 19:31:47< Sirp> blarumyrran: we are concerned that some systems we currently support don't have good enough opengl support.
20091010 19:31:49< Aethaeryn> I'm not sure if opengl will run on my computer. I'd have to fix the graphics drivers...
20091010 19:31:59< Aethaeryn> Only 2D works on my computer atm.
20091010 19:32:22< Aethaeryn> And every time I mess with the graphics, it screws something else up, so I'd rather have something working than nothing...
20091010 19:32:24< ilor> port to $platform probably wouldn't fly, too technical, this would need to be more of a system that does something
20091010 19:32:40< zookeeper> well, a campaign/scenario editor would surely have lots of formal requirements and designs...
20091010 19:33:09< Aethaeryn> Writing an AI is a good idea...
20091010 19:33:20< ilor> zookeeper: and the major technical issue of WML macros and all
20091010 19:33:40< ilor> Aethaeryn: AI woyuld be nice for some thesis, not for this project though
20091010 19:33:45< zookeeper> ilor, yeah
20091010 19:33:58< Aethaeryn> ilor: What about an add-on server rewrite?
20091010 19:34:02< Sirp> ilor: if you're interested I'd love to have someone work on the multiplayer server or major editor extensions for Frogatto. :) It's a less "huge in motion" project than Wesnoth. :)
20091010 19:34:20< Sirp> and yeah an add-on server re-write with lots more features would be possible.
20091010 19:34:25< ilor> add-on server might be good if nobody's working on it
20091010 19:34:40< ilor> it's good because there's networking in ita and also user interaction
20091010 19:35:25< ilor> and it's generally feasibile, unlike the scenario/campaign editor :)
20091010 19:35:43< Sirp> ilor: yeah I think it'd be cool if you got requests for all the features we'd like for the add-on server. cull them down to those you think are useful and workable together and feasible, then implement it.
20091010 19:35:53< Sirp> ilor: yeah.....the scenario/campaign editor is a "neverending project"
20091010 19:36:27< ilor> Sirp: exactly, this course has a lot of focus on the whole gathering requirements business
20091010 19:36:29< Sirp> the add-on server is a reasonable but not immense amount of work and there is a high chance that it would be useful and appreciated.
20091010 19:36:32< Soliton> "automatically reject crappy addons!"
20091010 19:36:59< ilor> it will probably also end up as the most documented piece of Wesnoth code if it works ;)
20091010 19:38:06< Sirp> to do some really interesting things it might involve writing some client-side code too
20091010 19:38:25< ilor> I like this idea, I hope I can sell it to my prof on Monday (and, well, convince the other 3 people in my team but that'll be much easier)
20091010 19:39:00< Aethaeryn> Feature request: automatically filter for LotR copyright infringement.
20091010 19:39:04< Sirp> ilor: yeah I think it's a good idea both from Wesnoth's perspective, and I think it'd work well for academic purposes.
20091010 19:39:06< Soliton> on a more serious note a ban system might soon be needed for the addon server as well.
20091010 19:39:27< ilor> that client side stuff will be a bit more difficult, formal-design-wise, I'm not sure how I'll deal with interfacing with existing projects
20091010 19:39:51< ilor> Aethaeryn: there, a requirement for copyright infrignemnt filtering 
20091010 19:39:52< Sirp> ilor: you could make the client side stuff outside of the scope of your academic project.
20091010 19:39:54< ilor> ;)
20091010 19:40:09< ilor> Sirp: yeah
20091010 19:40:32< Sirp> i.e. just spec out the server requests/responses, and make it an assumption there will be a client.
20091010 19:40:39< Aethaeryn> The client side stuff would probably be easier than the server side stuff.
20091010 19:40:47< Soliton> as a simpler client you can also take the wesnoth addon manager.
20091010 19:40:55< ilor> I can write that client supprt is outsourced to the Wesnoth team ;)
20091010 19:41:36< Soliton> or make an apache module or something.
20091010 19:41:52< ilor> Soliton: what do you mean by wesnoth addon manager?
20091010 19:42:04< Soliton> the python script.
20091010 19:42:15< Soliton> data/tools/wesnoth_addon_manager
20091010 19:43:06 * ilor looks
20091010 19:43:45< Sirp> I think it'd be cool if we could hook the add on system into the stats system and make it so it can display how many people have completed a given campaign.
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20091010 19:44:16< Sirp> or some other statistical approach to showing how much people enjoy playing a given campaign.
20091010 19:44:23< ilor> having a standalone client app as part of the project will probably make it look even better, it'll probably end up as a command-line with a simple gui in some python widgets
20091010 19:44:35< Aethaeryn> ilor: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/DeveloperFeatures#Mordante <- mordante has add-on server on the list, but it's a really long list... perhaps mordante could do the client-side rewrite if you did a server-side rewrite?
20091010 19:44:57< ilor> the prof that's leading the class is a usablity guy so he probably won't okay anything that's command-line only :)
20091010 19:45:33< ilor> Aethaeryn: mordante's todo list is somewhat legendary around here ;)
20091010 19:45:40< Soliton> ok, but leave commandline only functions since the addon manager is good for automating tasks. :-)
20091010 19:46:01< Soliton> i mean it should still be possible to use it without the gui.
20091010 19:46:04< ilor> Sirp: I can see there will be lots of interesting specifications for the project
20091010 19:46:10< ilor> Soliton: fully agree
20091010 19:47:09< ilor> the prof will probably like the fact that it'll get used by people, he generally seemed enthusiastic about doing the project for some open source org, and not as a throwaway'
20091010 19:48:58< Aethaeryn> There could be a lot of possibilities for add-on server features.
20091010 19:49:19< Aethaeryn> A lot of ways to make it more powerful.
20091010 19:50:04< Soliton> hmm, apache is indeed very busy for the last two hours.
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20091010 19:52:29< Soliton> 80 clients allowed and it still takes 3+GB memory.
20091010 19:53:42< Sirp> Soliton: apache is taking 3GB?
20091010 19:54:06< Soliton> http://collectd.wesnoth.org/graph.cgi?hostname=wesnoth.wesnoth.org;plugin=processes;plugin_instance=apache2;type=ps_rss;begin=-86400
20091010 19:54:23< ilor> oh, in other news, I got the GSoC t-shirt yesterday :)
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20091010 20:01:42< Sirp> Soliton: is this largely because we have 82 processes and each of them has a 10MB stack?
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20091010 20:02:32< Sirp> Soliton: also is it perhaps double-counting shared maps?
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20091010 20:03:55< Soliton> Sirp: it might not be perfectly accurate but yeah, it's because it appears we have our maximum of 80 clients currently connected.
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20091010 20:04:22< Sirp> Soliton: why is 80 clients the maximum?
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20091010 20:04:45< Ivanovic> because we already had the server die once under "too many apache processes started and now out of mem"
20091010 20:04:47< Soliton> Sirp: because when it was higher worse things happened?
20091010 20:04:52< Sirp> ahhh
20091010 20:05:00< Soliton> we can reduce it even more of course.
20091010 20:05:44< Sirp> but if we max out apache connections then more users will get rejected, right?
20091010 20:05:54< Soliton> i suppose so.
20091010 20:06:08< Soliton> since 2h we have about 40 more clients it seems. i think something fishy might be going on...
20091010 20:06:24< Ivanovic> some strange bot stuff attacking forum/wiki?
20091010 20:06:36< Aethaeryn> checking recent changes now for wiki bots
20091010 20:06:42< Aethaeryn> There were four the other day
20091010 20:07:12< Soliton> maybe. i probably need some scripts to analyse apache logs for such things.
20091010 20:07:13< Aethaeryn> nope, no vandalism since I blocked those bots.
20091010 20:07:16< Sirp> well where does apache keep its logs? We should look at what requests are coming in, I think.
20091010 20:07:36< Soliton> /var/log/apache2/access.log
20091010 20:07:36< Sirp> ahhh /var/log/apache2 I guess
20091010 20:08:01< Soliton> actually /var/log/apache2/*access.log
20091010 20:08:13< Soliton> since different vhosts have their own logs.
20091010 20:09:07< loonycyborg> Is it possible to convince the hosting provider to hook in an additional ram module? :P
20091010 20:09:33< Sirp> loonycyborg: sure, paying them a fee would convince them of that easily
20091010 20:10:20< loonycyborg> ram is cheap these days..
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20091010 20:11:01< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: for end users buying ram is cheap
20091010 20:11:16< Ivanovic> hosting companies still charge a fortune for stuff like this...
20091010 20:11:18< Ivanovic> ;)
20091010 20:11:33< Sirp> umm I don't think olm's prices are exactly ridiculous....but it would cost a little
20091010 20:11:36< Crab_> Aethaeryn: ok, now I can look at those AI issues (if they still persist)
20091010 20:12:21< loonycyborg> According to 'free' utility the server has 3G ram. Do I interpret its output correctly? :P
20091010 20:12:37< Ivanovic> yes, that is correct
20091010 20:12:38< Sirp> loonycyborg: yes it has 3GB
20091010 20:12:43< Ivanovic> we have a dualcore with 3gb ram
20091010 20:12:51< Sirp> to upgrade to 4GB I think they would charge an installation fee and then around $10/month
20091010 20:13:49< Ivanovic> looking at one server not too different from our ( https://olm.net/order-dedicated.php?currentstep=1&series=1&serverid=47 ) it looks like 2->3gb is 9$ per month, 2->4 is 15$ per month (plus 10$ setup fee)
20091010 20:14:58< loonycyborg> Anyway, it looks like the server runs out of physical ram often and uses swap.
20091010 20:15:13< Ivanovic> yes, that is definitely the case
20091010 20:15:32< loonycyborg> Even now it has 351M swap used.
20091010 20:15:40< Ivanovic> (that is no idea if it would even be possible to switch to a 6gb ram setup)
20091010 20:16:01< Ivanovic> since there were times when we used up the (normally) 3gb swap, too
20091010 20:16:19< Sirp> uhh I don't think we run out of memory very often.
20091010 20:16:44< Sirp> Linux uses swap quite aggressively. Just because you're using swap doesn't mean you've run out of memory
20091010 20:17:05< Ivanovic> we are often out of the existing 3GB ram and i'd guess that we are above 4GB at several times per week, too
20091010 20:17:42< loonycyborg> My local machine currently uses 0 megabytes of swap..
20091010 20:17:49< Sirp> we haven't come close to running out of memory anytime in the last 24 hours. 
20091010 20:18:10< Sirp> the closest we've gotten is being down to about 600MB of RAM free
20091010 20:18:17< Soliton> yep, since wesnothd is fixed it shouldn't usually happen.
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20091010 20:18:50< Ivanovic> oh, wesnothd is fixed?
20091010 20:19:20< Soliton> yep, Sirp found the memory leak.
20091010 20:19:25< Ivanovic> great!
20091010 20:20:13< Sirp> Ivanovic: I think I made my first SVN commit in more than a year. :)
20091010 20:20:18< Ivanovic> :)
20091010 20:20:42< loonycyborg> Sirp: AFAICT linux is smart enough not to reach in swap unless actually needed. So having swap used probably indicates that it ran out of physical memory at some point.
20091010 20:21:03< Ivanovic> Sirp: your last one before this was middle of march (this year) 
20091010 20:21:13< loonycyborg> And running of it even for short time can be annoying..
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20091010 20:21:34< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I'm going to test what happens if it targets the p1 leader... If it still sits on the keep I'll tell you.
20091010 20:21:43< Crab_> ok
20091010 20:21:45< Soliton> yeah, it uses swap when we overcommit.
20091010 20:21:55< Sirp> loonycyborg: no because using swap isn't necessarily a "dumb" thing to do.
20091010 20:22:15< Soliton> so when swap is used it means processes at least asked for more memory than is available.
20091010 20:22:30< Sirp> Soliton: not necessarily.
20091010 20:22:40< Soliton> once it used some it's not going to give it up right away though, i guess.
20091010 20:22:40< Ivanovic> Sirp: ehm, for a webserver with swap on the same drive as the data served i'd imagine that using swap *is* bad
20091010 20:23:11< Sirp> swap is used when Linux feels that memory could be better used for file system cache than for some program data.
20091010 20:23:16< Sirp> Ivanovic: no, because by using swap you can keep more files that the web server is serving cached in filesystem cache.
20091010 20:23:33< Sirp> that is actually a perfect case where using swap is a VERY good idea, even if you have plenty of spare memory
20091010 20:24:12< Sirp> all the commonly accessed files on a web server you want in filesystem cache, so even though you have lots of memory available, Linux might swap some rarely used program memory out so that it can continue to serve frequently accessed files from filesystem cache.
20091010 20:25:11< Sirp> see question 14 on the lkml faq: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/docs/lkml/
20091010 20:25:33< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Is there any documentation on AI targetting?
20091010 20:29:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: see data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/02_Hostile_mountains.cfg for example
20091010 20:30:51< Crab_> Aethaeryn: basically, at the end of the turn, ai moves units which have 'nothing to do'. it moves them nearer the targets. there are implicit targets - villages (if village_value>0) and leaders (if leader_value>0). plus, there are explicit targets (defined as SUFs inside values of [goal] tags), and there are temporary targets (put in place by the ai)
20091010 20:35:18< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Do you mean: {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT caution 0} {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT village_value 0} {AI_SIMPLE_ALWAYS_ASPECT leader_value 0} ?
20091010 20:36:19< Crab_> Aethaeryn: if you use new-style ai syntax, yes, this will remove all implicit targets of the ai - so, you should add new targets via [goal] tag - from the start or via [modify_ai]
20091010 20:37:01< Soliton> Sirp: fs caches are in user space?
20091010 20:37:37< Ivanovic> away for the evening, cu
20091010 20:38:22< Aethaeryn> Crab_: what does the caution one do?
20091010 20:39:22< Sirp> Soliton: no, filesystem caches are held in kernel space
20091010 20:39:37< Crab_> Aethaeryn: in that context, it is necessary to work around an bug which causes 'slow turns'. if you don't have 'avoided locations', it is not necessary. but, it makes ai skip retreating.
20091010 20:39:55< Sirp> Soliton: if you do sar -r  then the 'kbcached' shows the amount dedicated to filesystem cache
20091010 20:40:01< Crab_> Aethaeryn: also, it makes it more reckless
20091010 20:40:13< Sirp> Soliton: or free has it under 'cached'
20091010 20:40:22< Sirp> for instance, right now the server is using 897MB for filesystem cache
20091010 20:41:49< Soliton> so that's part of the 1GB the kernel has, no? not related to overcommitting of a userspace process?
20091010 20:43:49< Aethaeryn> Crab_: So leader_value 1 would make the AI focus only on the enemy leaders?
20091010 20:44:29< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes. 'focus on all units of side X' works better, though.
20091010 20:45:24< Aethaeryn> Crab_: So it's better to village_value 0 leader_value 0 and set a goal?
20091010 20:45:30< Crab_> yes
20091010 20:45:48< Crab_> Aethaeryn: also, you should split the AIs starting gold - i.e. don't give it 400 gold, give it 200, and 5 turns after, give another 200, then, 10 turns after, another 200
20091010 20:45:53< Soliton> anyway, pretty much no swap was used at all until apache started using 3GB memory a while ago.
20091010 20:46:13< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it will (imo) look better this way. try.
20091010 20:46:39< Sirp> Soliton: overcommitting of a userspace process has no effect on whether or not swap is used, afaik
20091010 20:47:05< Sirp> Soliton: swap will potentially be used when memory used by user processes + user used by the kernel exceeds available memory
20091010 20:47:33< Soliton> s/potentially/definitely/
20091010 20:47:43< Sirp> Soliton: not definitely.
20091010 20:47:50< Soliton> unless the other option is to kill something.
20091010 20:47:52< Sirp> Soliton: the kernel can make the choice of reducing the kernel memory usage.
20091010 20:48:28< Soliton> well, ok, if it can. sure.
20091010 20:48:28-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-206-14-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 20:48:33< Sirp> Soliton: the point is that on many systems, the amount of memory the kernel will use is often very large.
20091010 20:48:52< Sirp> Soliton: but as long as it has memory dedicated to filesystem cache it can always do that.
20091010 20:49:06< Soliton> yeah.
20091010 20:49:33< Sirp> Soliton: so in sar -r whenever the kbswpused column is less than the kbcached column, this means the kernel is *choosing* to use swap space, but it's not *forced* to.
20091010 20:49:47< Aethaeryn> Crab_: In this scenario, there is no AI leader or recruiting. There's 3-4 waves of orcs spawning. Thematically, it works out better this way to keep you on the defensive.
20091010 20:50:03< Crab_> ok
20091010 20:50:14< Sirp> Soliton: additionally, sometimes the kernel starts to use swap space in 'anticipation'.
20091010 20:50:18< Aethaeryn> Most scenarios, of course, will be standard, but the fun of prologues and epilogues is being different. :P
20091010 20:51:58< Sirp> Soliton: of course, ideally we will have at least 500MB of memory for fs cache, since once we reduce the fs cache we will start having apache run slower and thus more apache processes open at a time and thus more memory use for apache and a vicious cycle. :)
20091010 20:55:12< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I set caution to 0, village value to 0, and leader_value to .8, and it does do a good job at killing the ally leader (supposed to die anyway), but then it just sits in formation over the outpost area again.
20091010 20:55:18< Aethaeryn> it doesn't go after red.
20091010 20:55:32< Aethaeryn> (unless, of course, red is in range)
20091010 20:56:03< Soliton> Sirp: it doesn't make much sense to have fs cache in swap though, right? i probably misunderstood you there.
20091010 20:56:08< Aethaeryn> It will literally never win if you don't move your leader.
20091010 20:56:09< Crab_> Aethaeryn: can you post me a save ?
20091010 20:56:36< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and, also try 'target all units of side 1
20091010 20:56:52< Aethaeryn> Crab_: But then won't it ignore the AI it has to go through in order to get to side 1?
20091010 20:57:09< Sirp> Soliton: no, fs cache will never be placed in cache.
20091010 20:57:19< Sirp> I mean in swap
20091010 20:57:26< Sirp> fs cache will never be placed in swap
20091010 20:57:26< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, you can do 'target all units of side 1 and side X'
20091010 20:58:33< Sirp> Soliton: however if you have a situation where the disk is idle, and lots of memory is being used, the kernel might start duplicating memory in disk before it really 'needs' to so that it can simply remove pages from memory if it needs to, knowing they are already duplicated in swap space
20091010 21:01:19< Soliton> i see.
20091010 21:01:41< Soliton> i wonder if that is really reported as used swap though.
20091010 21:01:56< Sirp> Soliton: yeah I'm not completely sure about that.
20091010 21:02:15< Sirp> Soliton: really though, swap is often misunderstood because it is thought that using swap is expensive
20091010 21:03:10< Soliton> well, it is. but you can use it on memory you likely never/rarely use again. :-)
20091010 21:03:10< Sirp> in actual fact, generally using swap is not very expensive. What becomes expensive and a performance issue is that if your proportion of data that can be kept in RAM is small enough, or your access patterns random enough, that you frequently want data that is swapped out, and if it has to be swapped back in, then there is a performance issue
20091010 21:03:45< Sirp> this is called a "major page fault" and you can see how often it is happening by using sar -B
20091010 21:04:58< Sirp> now at a certain stage today we did get up to around 5 major faults/s which would have some level of performance impact, though I think it'd still be pretty tiny
20091010 21:05:34< CIA-62> silene * r39225 /trunk/src/ (actions.cpp actions.hpp): Moved the attack class out of the way, as it was completely private anyway.
20091010 21:05:35< Sirp> actually at one stage we had 122 major faults/s, now *that* I would say is an issue
20091010 21:05:38< CIA-62> silene * r39226 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: Removed battle execution from constructor, so that thrown exceptions are less harmful.
20091010 21:05:43< CIA-62> silene * r39227 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: Reduced dependency on unit_map iterators.
20091010 21:05:48< CIA-62> silene * r39228 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: 
20091010 21:05:48< CIA-62> Directly checked unit validity instead of relying on xy_accessor.
20091010 21:05:48< CIA-62> Indeed, if another unit takes the place of the attacker or the defender (e.g. Trinity scenario K02), the change would go undetected, hence causing a segfault at attack end.
20091010 21:05:53< CIA-62> silene * r39229 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: Fixed dangling pointer when the current weapon subreptitiously disappears from the unit, while the other unit was removed.
20091010 21:05:58< CIA-62> silene * r39230 /trunk/src/unit_map.hpp: Removed unused class unit_map::xy_accessor_base.
20091010 21:06:10< Aethaeryn> Crab_: [goal] id=kill_all_humans [criteria] side=1,2 [/criteria] value=1.5 [/goal] <- like this?
20091010 21:06:19< loonycyborg> Sirp: What package sar is part of? I don't have it on my gentoo system.
20091010 21:06:24-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 21:06:31< Zarel> mordante: Ping.
20091010 21:06:40< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, something like this. id is only needed if you want to change this goal on-the-fly later.
20091010 21:07:06< Aethaeryn> Crab_: And it goes in [side] or [ai]?
20091010 21:07:16< Crab_> all goes in [ai]
20091010 21:07:47-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 21:08:08< Sirp> loonycyborg: I think sysstat
20091010 21:08:45< Sirp> unfortunately for some reason I think different Linux distributions have different versions of sar which work slightly differently to each other
20091010 21:09:20< Sirp> loonycyborg: you also have to make sure the daemon is started to record the data.
20091010 21:09:52< loonycyborg> Indeed. It's in app-admin/sysstat
20091010 21:14:26-!- blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has quit []
20091010 21:16:59< mordante> ilor, in fact I already started on a new addon server 
20091010 21:17:29-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit []
20091010 21:19:45< Aethaeryn> Crab_: it seems to work, but they still have an unnatural tendency to focus around 23,4
20091010 21:19:48< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I guess I'll have to show you a replay...
20091010 21:20:04< Aethaeryn> 2/3 of them still hold back around 23,4
20091010 21:20:09< mordante> Zarel, pong
20091010 21:20:17< Crab_> Aethaeryn: do so. 
20091010 21:21:11< Zarel> mordante: https://mail.gna.org/public/warzone-dev/2009-10/msg00047.html :(
20091010 21:21:26< Zarel> Also https://mail.gna.org/public/warzone-dev/2009-10/msg00051.html
20091010 21:22:22< silene> can someone run the test scenario, attack with the silver mage, and tell me if the missiles are flying? i don't see them with trunk, i checked out 1.7.6 and i still don't see them
20091010 21:23:03< silene> so i'm a bit confused, since i would expect such a bug to go noticed, if it was real
20091010 21:24:35< loonycyborg> silene: I do see them.
20091010 21:25:17< silene> nice, a compiler bug then, i guess
20091010 21:26:59-!- esr [n=chatzill@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 21:27:26< mordante> Zarel, :-( guess your fellow developers have other ideas about version numbers
20091010 21:27:27< silene> or maybe not; since i had to install addons to reproduce Soliton's bug, it may actually be caused by them
20091010 21:27:57< Zarel> Yeah. I'm giving up at this point. :/
20091010 21:28:08< loonycyborg> Zarel: Obviously bugs buggy has a different idea of what 'stable' is :P
20091010 21:29:08< mordante> does your server protocol allow joining of different versions?
20091010 21:31:43< Soliton> well, we had incompatibilities because of bug fixes in stable releases as well.
20091010 21:32:07< mordante> yes we had and weren't too happy about that
20091010 21:32:47< mordante> from what I gathered about warzone they wanted to choose between 2.2.4 or 2.3.0
20091010 21:33:59< mordante> but I also don't know how compatible they want different versions to be
20091010 21:34:00< Soliton> sounds like there is no actually stable/dev release policy (yet) then. :-)
20091010 21:34:12-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091010 21:35:22< Zarel> mordante: We added a hack to kick out all players not running the same version as the host.
20091010 21:35:41< Zarel> We don't really have many policies, no...
20091010 21:35:46< Zarel> And the ones we do have, few follow. :/
20091010 21:36:11< mordante> Soliton, indeed
20091010 21:36:31-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 21:37:12< Soliton> might be more polite to just display a message if it's not guaranteed that the game will go oos.
20091010 21:37:16< loonycyborg> AFAICT keeping RTS games in sync would be a lot harder than TBS like wesnoth. I'm even suprised that they manage to be in sync at all :P
20091010 21:37:37< mordante> Zarel, then why have policies :-/
20091010 21:37:58< mordante> loonycyborg, I'm sure of that
20091010 21:38:14< Soliton> so you have something to talk about on your mailing list!
20091010 21:40:18-!- Bellerophon_true [n=chatzill@89.142.149.100] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 21:40:35< Soliton> ilor: random suggestion: read-only mode for the addon server so we can keep it running for obsolete versions but prevent people from wasting time creating new content for it.
20091010 21:41:11< Zarel> Well, Warzone has _tons_ of sync problems.
20091010 21:41:34< Zarel> There are ways to design RTSes to get rid of sync issues, but it requires so much refactoring that no one bothers...
20091010 21:43:12< mordante> and how bad are those sync errors?
20091010 21:44:17< Zarel> I dunno.
20091010 21:44:39< Zarel> Recently, they haven't causd too many problems, as long as you don't pay attention to HP too closely.
20091010 21:45:14< Zarel> (You see units' HP jump around a lot, since different players use different RNGs to determing whether or not shots will hit.)
20091010 21:45:18< Zarel> (Yes, it's that bad.)
20091010 21:48:01< Soliton> warzone is primarily multiplayer though, right?
20091010 21:48:15< mordante> indeed sounds rather bad, so a unit can be death at one client and alive at another one
20091010 21:50:38< Sirp> Soliton: how long has wesnothd been running with the new code and how does its memory look?
20091010 21:53:35< Soliton> Sirp: looks good. it ran about a day until the server went down 10h ago. so all in all not much to say yet.
20091010 21:54:52< Crab_> alink: ping
20091010 21:58:58< Zarel> mordante: Not that bad. We force units to die everywhere when they die on one client.
20091010 21:59:10< Zarel> Except once in a while they just get resurrected.
20091010 21:59:22< Zarel> If they die on one client.
20091010 21:59:51< Zarel> Basically, instead of actually keeping everything in sync, everyone runs their own copy, and certain things get synced up every few seconds.
20091010 22:00:03-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-206-14-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Connection timed out]
20091010 22:00:48-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-206-14-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 22:01:18-!- CIA-62 [n=CIA@208.69.182.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091010 22:02:31-!- CIA-13 [n=CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 22:03:29< mordante> sounds as a bit odd design, how do you prevent people from tampering with their local rng?
20091010 22:03:54< shadowmaster> does euschn read the logs?
20091010 22:04:18< shadowmaster> I can never reach him in my tiezone..
20091010 22:08:16-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 22:12:18< crimson_penguin> anyone have a temporary smtp server I can use?
20091010 22:12:59< ardesh> mail.google.com?
20091010 22:13:22< crimson_penguin> does that need a login?
20091010 22:13:53< ardesh> sure
20091010 22:14:14< ardesh> i think almost all smtp servers require a login
20091010 22:14:40< ardesh> you could set up a postfix or sendmail on ur localhost
20091010 22:15:13< crimson_penguin> I think maybe port 25 is blocked here :-/
20091010 22:15:16< CIA-13> silene * r39231 /trunk/src/ (time.cpp time.hpp): Removed unused enumeration ntime::source::time_mode.
20091010 22:15:38< CIA-13> silene * r39232 /trunk/src/ (time.cpp time.hpp): Removed unused fields ntime::source::time_ and index_.
20091010 22:15:41< crimson_penguin> I think maybe the reason it worked before, is that I use 26 with my server... but my server's down
20091010 22:17:05< crimson_penguin> yeah, it's blocked
20091010 22:17:06< Zarel> mordante: We don't.
20091010 22:18:16< mordante> Zarel, :-(
20091010 22:18:59< mordante> I'm off night
20091010 22:19:13< Zarel> 'Night.
20091010 22:19:22-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20091010 22:20:41< crimson_penguin> Anyone have an smtp server on a port other than 25?
20091010 22:27:10< ardesh> crimson_penguin, u could try connecting via telnet on some port 25
20091010 22:27:30< crimson_penguin> I did, it's blocked
20091010 22:27:35< ardesh> http://www.netgeiger.de/Knut/Tips_Tricks/Computer/E-Mail/smtp.php
20091010 22:28:19< ardesh> smtp mit ssl war irgendwo bei 460 oder so
20091010 22:28:24< ardesh> das könnteste mal testen
20091010 22:28:45< ardesh> 465
20091010 22:28:47< crimson_penguin> indeed
20091010 22:29:07< crimson_penguin> I don't know german :P
20091010 22:29:18< ardesh> ting via telnet on some port 25
20091010 22:29:18< ardesh> <crimson_penguin> I did, it's blocked
20091010 22:29:22< ardesh> oh crap
20091010 22:29:33< ardesh> i didnt realize that this was english
20091010 22:29:49< ardesh> u could try smtp via ssl... thats on port 465
20091010 22:29:55< ardesh> smtp.aim.com (Port 587)
20091010 22:29:58< ardesh> ^ or that one
20091010 22:30:06< crimson_penguin> you can send with aim?
20091010 22:30:14< ardesh> dunno
20091010 22:30:24< ardesh> just searched for a list with smtp server
20091010 22:30:48< ardesh> works
20091010 22:31:22< ardesh> but u need an account to use that...
20091010 22:31:27< ardesh> at least i think it is so
20091010 22:32:23< crimson_penguin> I do have an aim account
20091010 22:32:47< ardesh> mhh maybe it works that way
20091010 22:33:34< ardesh> but at least u could try wheter its just blocked by port... or if the packets will be inspected
20091010 22:34:29< crimson_penguin> well I did have a working server on port 26
20091010 22:34:36< ardesh> mhhh
20091010 22:34:39< ardesh> then it may work
20091010 22:34:55< ardesh> ardesh@earth:~/test1234$ telnet smtp.aim.com 587
20091010 22:34:55< ardesh> Trying 64.12.194.119...
20091010 22:34:55< ardesh> Connected to smtp.cs.com.
20091010 22:34:55< ardesh> Escape character is '^]'.
20091010 22:34:55< ardesh> 220 cia-mb07.mx.aol.com ESMTP mail_cia-mb07.2; Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:30:44 -0400
20091010 22:34:56< ardesh> ^
20091010 22:34:58< ardesh> sry for flood
20091010 22:36:55< crimson_penguin> AIM didn't work
20091010 22:37:03< crimson_penguin> what's cs.com?
20091010 22:37:09< ardesh> dunno
20091010 22:37:21< ardesh> maybe just a domain that aim is redirected to
20091010 22:37:32< ardesh> well.. i get this response without even sending one character
20091010 22:37:33< crimson_penguin> oh, interesting
20091010 22:37:42< crimson_penguin> yeah
20091010 22:37:49< crimson_penguin> well it works, but it rejects my account
20091010 22:37:55< ardesh> ya.. cs.com is owned by aol
20091010 22:38:05< ardesh> mhh maybe u need a real aim-account
20091010 22:38:18< ardesh> that kind that u get when aol is ur isp
20091010 22:39:12< ardesh> gmail doesnt use 25 as well
20091010 22:39:25< ardesh> smtp.gmail.com 465 / 587
20091010 22:39:44< ardesh> getting a response on 587
20091010 22:39:57< crimson_penguin> oh, ok
20091010 22:40:07< ardesh> but its encrypted
20091010 22:40:58< ardesh> but maybe 587 is also blocked... because its a default alternative port
20091010 22:41:59< crimson_penguin> weeeird, seems like it's stuck on sending recipients now
20091010 22:42:01< ardesh> do you get a response for telnet smtp.gmail.com 587
20091010 22:42:23< crimson_penguin> oh!
20091010 22:42:32< crimson_penguin> no, it was just stupid! gmail worked!
20091010 22:42:43< ardesh> lol :D
20091010 22:42:45< crimson_penguin> 587 works :D
20091010 22:43:30< crimson_penguin> thanks a lot!
20091010 22:43:45< crimson_penguin> I'm not gonna use it yet, but this means when I come back with my mom's computer later, I can send her emails
20091010 22:43:53< crimson_penguin> haave to go now, bye!
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20091010 22:50:38-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 22:51:08< alink> Crab_: looking for me?
20091010 22:52:03< Crab_> alink: yes. I've wanted to say, that there's a serious enough bug in default ai targeting, uncovered with the help of Aethaeryn.
20091010 22:52:36< alink> you mean a new bug?
20091010 22:52:41< Crab_> yes
20091010 22:53:00< Crab_> alink: it is caused by the ai 'remembering' old temporary targets, such as 'mass attack' and 'support' targets
20091010 22:53:14< Crab_> it has a perfect attribute - it is not possible to reproduce this bug from a savegame :)
20091010 22:53:23< Crab_> since save/load clears things up :)
20091010 22:54:02< Crab_> alink: so, for example, if there are two enemies, the ai 'remembers' targets connected with 1st battleground, and refuses to go to a second side.
20091010 22:54:42< Crab_> so, it frequently leads to 'ai shuffles units near an empty location' sort of things
20091010 22:55:12< alink> seems serious enough , but i am not sure that I can help. I just hear now about "mass attack" :/
20091010 22:56:08-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20091010 22:56:10< Crab_> alink: the bug is reproducible, I'm tracking it now. I just wanted to say it to you because you're interested in ai targeting - since the bug is not with targeting per ce, but with preparation of a list of targets.
20091010 22:56:12< alink> is it simply old targets from previous scenarios ?
20091010 22:56:24< Crab_> alink: no, it's temporary targets
20091010 22:56:53< Crab_> e.g. 'the ai attacked a unit, it thought that it needs to prioritize moving units here because there's a battle here, it added a temporary target at the battle location'
20091010 22:57:00< Crab_> that sort of things
20091010 22:57:26< Crab_> or something like this. still tracking this one down.
20091010 22:58:01< Crab_> so, it's certain that the list of targets is incorrect, and includes some targets that must not be present.
20091010 22:58:26< Crab_> it might be not from old turns, but from some weird effect on this turn, etc. newertheless, save/load clears things up :
20091010 22:59:24< alink> ok, well i plan to work now on the "sorting targets by distance". So, the future change caused by this bug seems to be that some tragets will be removed or flagged, then that's not a problem for me yet :-)
20091010 22:59:31< Crab_> ok
20091010 23:00:10< Crab_> it's a problem in some cases (since those 'phantom' targets will be 'very near' AIs units)
20091010 23:00:41< Crab_> but, this requires some preconditions to occur, it doesn't manifests in each case.
20091010 23:01:36< alink> ah yes indeed it may interfer with the evaluation on my fix. I will always reload for test then.
20091010 23:01:45< Crab_> I'll ping you when it's fixed.
20091010 23:02:06< alink> thanks, and for the "heads up" too
20091010 23:05:34-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091010 23:06:28< Crab_> alink: hope to fix soon (compiling a candidate fix atm, but my compilation is sloooow)
20091010 23:09:09-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has quit ["night all"]
20091010 23:13:03< ilor> mordante: how much have you done wrt the addon server? and what do you think about this whole project idea?
20091010 23:13:37-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has quit ["On the road again"]
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20091010 23:25:27-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091010 23:30:30< Arc> hey Espreon 
20091010 23:31:04< Espreon> Hello Arc.
20091010 23:35:30< CIA-13> crab * r39233 /trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs): 
20091010 23:35:30< CIA-13> fix a serious enough bug in default ai targeting, uncovered with the help of
20091010 23:35:30< CIA-13> Aethaeryn, who provided a test case. The bug caused the AI, in certain
20091010 23:35:30< CIA-13> situations, to make weird shuffle-doing-nothing moves and not seek enemies or
20091010 23:35:30< CIA-13> their villages
20091010 23:35:31< Crab_> Aethaeryn, alink: ^ ok, the bug is fixed. it's pretty new (was caused by my changes somewhen in summer)
20091010 23:37:05< alink> Crab_: good you didn't need to rewrite the whole targetting code ;-)
20091010 23:37:19< Aethaeryn> Glad to help.
20091010 23:37:39< Crab_> alink: well, it's not in targeting code, it's in target selection code :) good to get hit by my own @todo's :)
20091010 23:38:22< Crab_> Aethaeryn: so, now the orcs play as intended (even smarter than with save/load trick)
20091010 23:38:22< shadowmaster> isn't it nice to have UMC authors working with the mainline developers to test this stuff? :P
20091010 23:38:54< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes :) especialy because that was a hard-to-reproduce-if-reported-by-player bug :)
20091010 23:39:05< Aethaeryn> Crab_: They'll be a bit more aggressive than when you tested it since I committed the AI [goal] after you tested.
20091010 23:39:27< Crab_> shadowmaster: i.e. the players give saves (which won't have helped because the bug hides on save/load), but UMC creators give scenarios (which allowed to reproduce the bug)
20091010 23:39:44< Aethaeryn> :)
20091010 23:43:46< Crab_> i.e. it was reported on Sep8 on forums, but it was impossible to reproduce.
20091010 23:46:41-!- Aethaery1 [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
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20091010 23:47:11-!- Aethaery1 is now known as Aethaeryn
20091010 23:49:16< CIA-13> crab * r39234 /trunk/players_changelog: players_changelog entry for above commit
20091010 23:50:50< Aethaeryn> <Crab_> i.e. it was reported on Sep8 on forums, but it was impossible to reproduce <- Link?
20091010 23:51:18< Crab_> http://wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26991
20091010 23:51:23< Aethaeryn> ty
20091010 23:51:40< Aethaeryn> I usually skip over that forum when I lurk.
20091010 23:54:35-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20091010 23:57:11< Espreon> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m264f31c6 — Oh joy, Wesnoth failed to compile...
--- Log closed Sun Oct 11 00:00:21 2009