--- Log opened Fri Oct 30 00:00:17 2009
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20091030 00:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 73 bugs, 243 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091030 01:23:03< esr> loonycyborg: OK.  Will so note.
20091030 01:26:26< esr> wesbot: topic
20091030 01:26:28< wesbot> esr: Don't be impatient, wait until something changes...  *tsk*
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20091030 01:39:57< shadowmaster> :/ connection keeps failing permanently after 1 minute or so
20091030 01:45:28< shadowmaster> fendrin, esr: no, I have got nothing to do with magic dwarves appearing at the start of some UtBS scenario.
20091030 01:47:15< shadowmaster> also, virtualbox can be both a software-only system emulator or a hardware-based virtualizer
20091030 01:48:13< shadowmaster> (provided you are using a Intel or AMD-based CPU which supports certain extensions. Oh, and for x86/amd64/em64t only.
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20091030 03:49:56< shadowmaster> yays, CPU at 94°C! and it's night already :/
20091030 03:51:09< shadowmaster> too bad it doesn't seem to help for cleaning the fan.
20091030 04:00:08< CIA-58> shadowmaster * r39514 /trunk/changelog: Update changelog.
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20091030 05:28:44< Aethaeryn> Who handles translations?
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20091030 07:01:17< ancestral> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
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20091030 10:54:26< CIA-58> esr * r39515 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Spaces are illegal in mail addresses.
20091030 11:00:41< CIA-58> ivanovic * r39516 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: yes, esr, spaces are illegal, but at least use the common anti spambot way (though it does not really help too much...)
20091030 11:01:46< esr> Ivanovic: I'm on it.  The right solution is to make about_cfg_to_wiki do the obfuscation automatically.
20091030 11:02:02< Ivanovic> no, it is not
20091030 11:02:15< esr> That's what I'm coding and testing now.
20091030 11:02:16< Ivanovic> since the file is also listed in svn and spambots can get the addresses from their
20091030 11:02:20< Ivanovic> websvn anyone?
20091030 11:02:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20091030 11:03:18< esr> If that's really a concermn I oughty to file a bug agains websvn...
20091030 11:03:34< Ivanovic> ehm, why?
20091030 11:03:58< Ivanovic> sorry, but it would *really* suprise me if bots were too stupid to parse files that they can get via the web svn interface
20091030 11:04:05< Ivanovic> when the addresses are there in really plain text
20091030 11:04:12< esr> Because otherwise *all* projects can be harvested from their AUTHOR files
20091030 11:04:21< Ivanovic> oh, they *can*
20091030 11:04:33< Ivanovic> i don't see any possible way to really stop this
20091030 11:05:27< Ivanovic> presonally i think writing such a script to do the mascerading in cfg_to_about is really too much efford that is not required at all
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20091030 11:06:31< BroodKiller> mornin'
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20091030 11:07:53< esr> Ivanovic:  email = email.replace("@", "&#x40;").replace(".", "&#x2E;")
20091030 11:08:04< esr> That's all there is to it.
20091030 11:08:43< Ivanovic> and the question *why* remains
20091030 11:09:00< Ivanovic> since then the normal addresses are still available to everyone in plaintext via a website
20091030 11:11:26< esr> Well, last I checked, spamfighters still thought spambots were's undoing @ -> &#x40;, so their pattern matcher won't find those.  Every little bt helps.
20091030 11:11:48< esr> s/were's/weren't/
20091030 11:14:04< Ivanovic> but why not directly enter those in about.cfg?
20091030 11:14:38< Ivanovic> what speaks against hardcoding those chars, since ingame email= is omitted anyway
20091030 11:14:50< esr> Because if we do it this way, humans don't have to remember to obfuscate, it gets done automatically.
20091030 11:16:17< Ivanovic> okay, so it is more secure if we completely remove obfuscation at one place and just change obfuscation at another one?
20091030 11:16:46< Ivanovic> sorry, personally i don't see the logics behind this since i'd guess that bots are easily able to search open source projects for about entries
20091030 11:17:00< esr> You know I'm a big fan of automating away fussy details that humans are bad at remembering.
20091030 11:17:33< Ivanovic> in general i *love* automating stuff so that you don't really have to remember it
20091030 11:17:44< esr> Yes, it's more secure if it means obfuscation will be applied even when the user forgets to roll their own.
20091030 11:17:50< Ivanovic> but the problem is that in this case personally i think it might be less secure
20091030 11:18:31< esr> Why?  How can we possibly lose by applying that step in about_*_To_wki?
20091030 11:19:30< Ivanovic> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/about.cfg
20091030 11:19:46< Ivanovic> every bot is most likely able to parse a website this like
20091030 11:20:00< Ivanovic> so with *removing* obfuscation there it might become problematic
20091030 11:20:30< Ivanovic> but yeah, some replacement of "_AT_" to "&#x40;" makes probably sense
20091030 11:20:43< esr> I'm no longer talking about removing obfuscation, just adding some.
20091030 11:21:08< esr> And that idea you just had is good too.
20091030 11:22:02< Ivanovic> okay, some entries already do use "_dot_" for "."
20091030 11:22:26< Ivanovic> that is: one entry is especialy critical, since this one does not use capitalization which makes case sensitive matching a mess...
20091030 11:22:31< Ivanovic>         name = "Karl Miller (karlm)"
20091030 11:22:54< Ivanovic> we should probably convert his email to some more "standard conform" scheme
20091030 11:24:11< esr> Well, yes...replace () with <>.  But we don't know his sitename, do we?
20091030 11:24:53< Ivanovic> ehm, why should we do *this*?
20091030 11:25:06< Ivanovic> i just don't want to pase the corresponding email addy (though obfuscated) in here
20091030 11:25:12< CIA-58> esr * r39517 /trunk/data/tools/about_cfg_to_wiki: Mask email names from spammers.
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20091030 11:25:39< Ivanovic> this is just a pointer for you to the only execption regarding "everytime _DOT_ or _AT_ appears, replace those"
20091030 11:25:50< Ivanovic> all other cases are really capital letters
20091030 11:26:05< esr> Because the correct RFC-822 form is name <address> or address (name), not name (address).
20091030 11:26:17< Ivanovic> this is not an address
20091030 11:26:20< Ivanovic> this is the nickname
20091030 11:26:39< esr> I'm confused.
20091030 11:26:45< Ivanovic> the normal format we use is: name = "Real Name (Nickname)"
20091030 11:26:55< esr> Oh.
20091030 11:27:10< Ivanovic> email = "user_DOT_name_AT_domain_DOT_foo"
20091030 11:27:24< Ivanovic> (though often "_DOT_" is just a plain and simple "."
20091030 11:27:47< Ivanovic> he usese email = "user_dot_name_at_domain_dot_foo"
20091030 11:28:25< esr> I see.  Will fix
20091030 11:29:38< CIA-58> esr * r39518 /trunk/data/ (core/about.cfg tools/about_cfg_to_wiki): More uniform obfuscation.
20091030 11:30:03< esr> Now I must get back to testing abugfix in Liberty.
20091030 11:31:00< Ivanovic> in that about entry the _at_ is still wrong
20091030 11:31:02< Ivanovic> ;)
20091030 11:32:52< esr> Grrr.
20091030 11:34:19< CIA-58> esr * r39519 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Rescue some obfuscation.
20091030 11:34:42< Ivanovic> :)
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20091030 11:44:46< BroodKiller> heh, speaking of obfuscation always reminds me of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest....now that's something that really blows my mind away :D
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20091030 12:15:28< CIA-58> ivanovic * r39520 /trunk/ (8 files in 7 dirs): updated Czech translation
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20091030 13:16:41< CIA-58> ivanovic * r39521 /trunk/data/ (campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/_main.cfg core/about.cfg): some more email changes/unification
20091030 13:18:25< Ivanovic> esr: i synced the about website with the latest version of about_cfg_to_wiki
20091030 13:29:11< esr> Good.
20091030 13:30:17< esr> I'm not pushing for it to happen right now, but you should think about giving me admin access to the project's Gna! state and webspace.
20091030 13:30:35< esr> It might simpolify some things in the future.
20091030 13:35:40< Ivanovic> ???
20091030 13:36:03< Ivanovic> anyway, i am basically off for the rest of the day, should be back in some 20h
20091030 13:53:11< esr> Have fun.
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20091030 14:18:49< esr> zookeeper: still there?
20091030 14:23:46< zookeeper> esr, still? i've never left
20091030 14:23:57< esr> :-)
20091030 14:25:24< esr> I'm trying to fix that excess-hitpoints bug in Liberty.  My attempt didn't work and I was going to invoke you to look at the patch, but I think I see the problem.
20091030 14:25:58< zookeeper> the problem is that it's silly to switch the types of units in the first place :/
20091030 14:26:28< esr> But it's such nifty storyline!
20091030 14:26:45< zookeeper> anyway, i thought i dealt with excess HP there already once
20091030 14:27:05< esr> There's an open bug. 
20091030 14:27:25< esr> I'd point yyou at the number but my browser is hung.
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20091030 14:27:29< zookeeper> right, looks like i didn't
20091030 14:27:36< zookeeper> i'll add in some kind of a check for that
20091030 14:27:47< esr> You want to fix it?  OK.
20091030 14:28:13< esr> I have to go be Mr. Famous Person in 90 minutes, anyway.
20091030 14:28:40< esr> (Keynote speaker at a CS conference.)
20091030 14:31:16< zookeeper> wow. [unit] variable= really comes in handy here.
20091030 14:32:20< zookeeper> i might have originally omitted the check because it would have been annoyingly verbose, but now it's really simple to do
20091030 14:33:23< esr> I'll have to look at it after you commit; I don't think I know that feature.
20091030 14:34:00< zookeeper> just something that puts the new unit straight into a variable instead of into the map
20091030 14:34:17< zookeeper> so you don't have to first create the unit and then store it for example in order to check for something
20091030 14:34:20< esr> I came up with an ugly store/unstore-based method.  That sounds better.  Much better.
20091030 14:35:07< esr> Must sign off.  Back shortly.
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20091030 14:44:47< CIA-58> zookeeper * r39522 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/scenarios/04_Unlawful_Orders.cfg: Fixed the transforming units' hitpoints sometimes exceeding the maximum.
20091030 14:45:13< zookeeper> i didn't even test that yet, though...
20091030 14:45:25 * zookeeper likes to commit untested code
20091030 14:46:46< esr> "to_variable" ... cute.
20091030 14:46:55< esr> Now test it! :-)
20091030 14:47:10< esr> I have to go.
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20091030 17:55:33< BroodKiller> shadowmaster: ping
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20091030 18:27:10< AI0867> esr: with your changes to about_cfg_to_wiki, doesn't that mean the addresses appear unobfuscated on the wiki?
20091030 18:27:21< AI0867> because that's exactly what the obfuscation is meant to prevent
20091030 18:28:43< AI0867> or it is the opposite way around...
20091030 18:31:35< AI0867> that's what you get for reading diffs on a phone...
20091030 18:31:39< AI0867> never mind
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20091030 18:59:16< mordante> servus
20091030 19:00:37< shadowmaster> hi there, mordante 
20091030 19:03:01< mordante> hi shadowmaster 
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20091030 20:54:39< Sirp> hi happygrue 
20091030 20:55:06< happygrue> hello Sirp, how are you?
20091030 20:55:13< Sirp> I'm doing pretty well -- and you?
20091030 20:55:34< happygrue> very busy the past month or so, but breathing a bit easier this week.  :)
20091030 20:56:08< happygrue> my part-time job is as a math tutor, so the schedule revolves around midterms.  ;)
20091030 20:56:15< Sirp> ahhh, fair enough. :)
20091030 20:56:33< Sirp> have you played Puerto Rico by chance? I just played it the first time last night
20091030 20:56:46< happygrue> I have, I enjoyed it quite  a lo
20091030 20:56:48< happygrue> lot
20091030 20:57:24< happygrue> I haven't played recently though
20091030 20:57:30 * Sirp nods
20091030 20:57:41< Sirp> it seems rather fun, still deciding how I like it compared to Catan
20091030 20:58:27< happygrue> I liked aspects of it, but I wonder if the opening would tend to be the same every time, after the best stratigies develop
20091030 20:58:30< happygrue> not sure though
20091030 20:58:55< happygrue> I had fun when I played it.  :)
20091030 20:59:19< Sirp> happygrue: actually that is discussed a lot on boardgamegeek and it seems there is no consensus as to the best opening play
20091030 20:59:28< Sirp> though I do think the style of game makes it more vulnerable to that kind of thing than Catan
20091030 21:00:42< happygrue> ah, well that's good to know.  :)
20091030 21:01:30< happygrue> my experience involved seeing a few players make critical opening choices that had a huge impact on the game
20091030 21:01:57< happygrue> still, I was playing with mostly players that hadn't played it much before
20091030 21:02:05< happygrue> so I imagine things could be very different with pros
20091030 21:03:07< happygrue> did I mention to you the Tigris and Euphrates is available for online play via Vassel?
20091030 21:03:18< happygrue> I haven't tried it, but it might be worth a look sometime.  :)
20091030 21:05:05< Sirp> happygrue: I think it's the kind of game where in a "playing group" there seems to develop a dominant strategy...until someone works out a way to beat that strategy
20091030 21:05:20< Sirp> happygrue: what is Vassel? I saw it is on boardgamegeek but there are no bots and the interface is fairly horrible.
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20091030 21:08:41< happygrue> Sirp: the interface is very clunky.  I have yet to actually play a game successfully, but people do (apparently).  It is a Play by email server I guess, and people upload "mods" to allow access to different games (lots of games!) which you can then play quasi-realtime.
20091030 21:08:41< happygrue> I tried to play Twilight Struggle with a friend, but he couldn't get it to work on his end
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20091030 21:08:44< happygrue> and it was kind of miserable, so we haven't tried again.  :(
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20091030 21:09:25< Sirp> happygrue: ahhh. :-/
20091030 21:10:01< Sirp> happygrue: speaking of which, it would be cool if someone could develop a nice *framework* to make a variety of board-type games that could be played online.
20091030 21:10:16< Sirp> I think there are a couple of expensive commercial type frameworks.
20091030 21:10:41< happygrue> Sirp: I VERY much agree.  Vassel has been in existance since the 90s I think, and it shows.  I think a fresh look now might produce something great
20091030 21:11:09< happygrue> something like this:  http://www.gametableonline.com/
20091030 21:11:29< happygrue> but open source  ;)
20091030 21:11:36< Sirp> happygrue: for instance there is a product called Zillions of Games, but it is centered around games like chess, go, etc. We need a framework that can play games like Catan, Carcassone, Tigris & Euphrates, Puerto Rico, and Al Hahmbra
20091030 21:11:40< Sirp> happygrue: yes I have seen that before. :)
20091030 21:12:05< happygrue> perhaps getting a few companies to put their game offically into said framework
20091030 21:12:35< happygrue> rather than having to signup/register for every different board game at it's own offical site.
20091030 21:15:10< Sirp> happygrue: and if you make the language easy and expressive enough there'd be potentially a lot of games people would develop
20091030 21:19:27< happygrue> that would be nice.  :)
20091030 21:20:08< Sirp> of course the hard thing is deciding on the constraints that one is going to be satisfied with. :) Because if you don't set up some reasonable constraints you might as well just hand people Python and say "there, program your board game." :)
20091030 21:20:24< happygrue> one thing that vassel has going for it is that a lot of developers have agreed to let their game be developed on that platform.  I think that if another (nicer) site came along, there would be a good core of games with which to build a base of support
20091030 21:20:44< happygrue> hehe
20091030 21:24:18 * Sirp nods
20091030 21:24:20< Sirp> that is true
20091030 21:25:22-!- Getty [i=torsten@cubestats.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091030 21:25:26< Getty> good day
20091030 21:25:38< Getty> Rhonda: lol :)
20091030 21:25:47< Rhonda> ouch!
20091030 21:25:57< Getty> Rhonda: so i can directly take you to answer my small questiona
20091030 21:25:57< Getty> s
20091030 21:26:16 * Rhonda claims to not be around.
20091030 21:26:30< Getty> Rhonda: doesnt work, i feel you presence
20091030 21:26:38< Getty> its like a small pain in the neck ;)
20091030 21:26:39< Rhonda> enduser support in #wesnoth :P
20091030 21:26:47< Getty> its no end user question :P
20091030 21:26:52< shadowmaster> some devs are too lazy to read #wesnoth anyway.
20091030 21:27:20 * mordante whistles innocently
20091030 21:27:29< Getty> where are the images located which "makes the map"?
20091030 21:28:11< mordante> Getty, data/core/images/terrain
20091030 21:29:02< Getty> ah thanks
20091030 21:29:47< mordante> np
20091030 21:29:59< Getty> wow, data is lots of nice organized stuff, wesnoth is really good organized
20091030 21:30:50< Getty> uh, even an own interface language, or is that some common stuff? (this [bla] [/bla])
20091030 21:31:10< Rhonda> WML
20091030 21:31:13< Rhonda> Wesnoth Markup Language
20091030 21:31:46< Getty> cool
20091030 21:32:04< Getty> but i just realized... your game is hexagon orientated....
20091030 21:32:26< Rhonda> It is.
20091030 21:33:03< Sirp> Getty: umm you just realized this? :)
20091030 21:33:08< Getty> i didnt played it ;)
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20091030 21:33:32 * Rhonda wondered how long it will take people to notice that Getty is "special"
20091030 21:33:36 * Rhonda runs and hides. :P
20091030 21:33:56< mordante> Rhonda, guess now we know :-P
20091030 21:33:56< Getty> i just make some small POE+SDL stuff in perl, and wanted to get some adequate tiles so that it doesnt look like full crap
20091030 21:34:42 * Rhonda hugs Getty. :)
20091030 21:34:46< Getty> lol :)
20091030 21:35:12< Getty> Rhonda: you are also ultima-dude, or? :)
20091030 21:35:22< Getty> (british, avatar, shadowlords, and co.)
20091030 21:35:35< Rhonda> ultima?!
20091030 21:35:54< Getty> ok forget it ;) just thought you was into that, but you are just an old dude
20091030 21:36:15< Rhonda> weezer 8bit album!
20091030 21:36:41< Getty> hehe
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20091030 21:50:01< CIA-58> ai0867 * r39523 /trunk/ (changelog src/mouse_events.cpp): Using a hotkey to reload during an attack no longer disables the mouse (http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27616)
20091030 21:51:50< AI0867> wesbot: log 39523
20091030 21:51:50< wesbot> ai0867 * r39523 : Using a hotkey to reload during an attack no longer disables the mouse (http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&amp;t=27616)
20091030 21:51:53< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=39523
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20091030 21:59:35< mordante> I'm off bye
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20091030 22:17:48< stikonas> Chusslove: Hi, http://stikonas.homelinux.org/files/wesnoth--overlay.png (already wesnoth-optipng'ized)
20091030 22:17:52< stikonas> can you commit it?
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20091030 22:53:45< Chusslove> stikonas: Done.
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20091030 22:53:56< CIA-58> caslav_ilic * r39524 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Updated localized images for Lithuanian.
20091030 22:54:36< stikonas> thanks
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20091030 23:49:57< YogiHH> anyone can tell me why choosing desert with cactus in the map editor doesn't display a cactus?
20091030 23:58:35-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091030 23:59:16< alink> YogiHH: because cactus has a low probability ? 
20091030 23:59:38< alink> try big brush
--- Log closed Sat Oct 31 00:00:13 2009