--- Log opened Sun Oct 11 00:00:21 2009
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20091011 00:09:20< Hillshum> Is there a way to open a specific tutorial?
20091011 00:10:11< shadowmaster> there's only one mainline tutorial.
20091011 00:10:45< Hillshum> Can I skip a scenario? I didn't quite pass it, but learned it all
20091011 00:10:47< shadowmaster> if you want to skip the first scenario you can use :debug :n
20091011 00:11:49< Hillshum> On the command line? And I want the third scenario
20091011 00:12:24< shadowmaster> there's no third scenario :p
20091011 00:13:07< Hillshum> Well then. 
20091011 00:13:09< shadowmaster> yes, : stands for whatever you need to press in order to type a colon (':'). That should display a little input box in the bottom area
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20091011 03:07:30< meowreka> is there a place to ask for wesnoth map critique aside from official wesnoth forums
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20091011 03:10:37< shadowmaster> no.
20091011 03:10:52< meowreka> oh shadowmaster
20091011 03:12:15< meowreka> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27426&p=388966
20091011 03:16:49< shadowmaster> I cannot provide any useful input for multiplayer content authors because I only play and work in the single-player territory.
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20091011 03:34:30< n3penthe> hello
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20091011 03:35:24< meowreka> mhm.
20091011 03:35:57< shadowmaster> hi n3penthe, how can we help you?
20091011 03:36:04< n3penthe> :D
20091011 03:36:05< shadowmaster> wait. wrong channel.
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20091011 03:36:20< n3penthe> Im in no particular need of any help X)
20091011 03:36:29< meowreka> n3penthe are you good at judging mp maps
20091011 03:36:40< n3penthe> judging?
20091011 03:36:58< n3penthe> you mean, my opinion if a map is good to play 1vs1? :D
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20091011 03:37:33< shadowmaster> no, he means commenting on map aesthetics, balancing, etc.
20091011 03:37:51< meowreka> I have a 1v1 map
20091011 03:38:00< n3penthe> well
20091011 03:38:08< n3penthe> in anycase he wants an opinion of a map he has made
20091011 03:38:15< n3penthe> well no Im not any good at that 
20091011 03:38:16< meowreka> three.
20091011 03:38:38< n3penthe> btw
20091011 03:38:44< n3penthe> has either of you played wesnoth tower defense?
20091011 03:38:49< n3penthe> that was kind of nice :D
20091011 03:38:56< n3penthe> just reminded me for some reason
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20091011 03:41:42< n3penthe> well 
20091011 03:41:48< meowreka> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27426&p=388966
20091011 03:42:13< n3penthe> well they look nice
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20091011 03:42:30< n3penthe> but snow in general is not very well balanced for competitive play
20091011 03:43:24< meowreka> is it the drakes thing
20091011 03:44:56< n3penthe> anyway I think the 1st and the 3rd map look nice I cant say much more I dont know 
20091011 03:44:56< n3penthe> :D
20091011 03:46:00< n3penthe> well obivously if you fill a map with 1 terrain type it's gonna be more advantageous to certain factions than others
20091011 03:46:19< meowreka> who in the world is better in the snow
20091011 03:46:56< n3penthe> well I dont know most maps dont have snow I dont actually have anything concrete
20091011 03:47:12< n3penthe> just fading memories of playing snowy maps 
20091011 03:47:13< n3penthe> XD
20091011 03:47:33< n3penthe> in anycase
20091011 03:47:38< n3penthe> what's the purpose of these maps
20091011 03:48:33< meowreka> being AMAZING
20091011 03:49:30< n3penthe> well 
20091011 03:49:42< n3penthe> if you want serious opinion
20091011 03:50:06< n3penthe> they look nice and might be suited for campaign type play or such where you'ren ot trying to best a human opponent
20091011 03:50:22< Aethaeryn> MP campaign, for instance.
20091011 03:50:26< Aethaeryn> There's not enough MP campaigns.
20091011 03:50:48< Aethaeryn> Either that, or use a custom era or modify it somehow
20091011 03:50:58< n3penthe> but if you try to make maps good for human vs human play
20091011 03:51:02< Aethaeryn> Exclude certain factions, units, etc., and it could work.
20091011 03:51:16< Aethaeryn> but bbl, food
20091011 03:51:29< n3penthe> then for an example those narrow passes in map1 over the water are just hell
20091011 03:51:43< n3penthe> and villages should be carefully placed
20091011 03:55:31< n3penthe> anyway it's probably hard to make a map that looks pretty and is balanced for multiplayer games
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20091011 03:59:12< n3penthe> I guess you had some sort of bridgehead idea going on with those passages
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20091011 04:21:40< meowreka> tut
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20091011 07:32:06< meowreka> hi #wesnoth
20091011 07:37:36< Zarel> hi meowreka
20091011 07:41:06< meowreka> hey wesnoth
20091011 07:41:09< meowreka> I have a question guys
20091011 07:41:18< meowreka> http://imgur.com/Mm6tv.jpg is this a good multiplayer map
20091011 07:43:04< ancestral> meowreka: Can you cross the red lava?
20091011 07:44:04< meowreka> nah
20091011 07:44:05< meowreka> you can't
20091011 07:44:16< meowreka> that random terrain garbage is there for no real reason
20091011 07:45:09< ancestral> Just for show? Okay
20091011 07:45:40< ancestral> Hmmm, not sure if the small bridges to the middle are good
20091011 07:45:55< ancestral> For one, a single file line will give a significant advantage to flyers
20091011 07:46:19< ancestral> Two, other units will get slowed down, and it'll take a few turns before anyone can reach a village
20091011 07:47:36< ancestral> But probably the only way to properly test this is to host a game on the server
20091011 07:48:45< meowreka> well
20091011 07:48:48< meowreka> I hosted a game earlier
20091011 07:48:52< meowreka> it had different terrain though
20091011 07:48:56< meowreka> same concept
20091011 07:49:08< meowreka> it was incredibly broken, because of the terrain at the time, but it was still fun.
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20091011 07:56:39< meowreka> cool
20091011 07:58:11< n3penthe> one problem would arise with the distance of the villages to the keeps
20091011 07:58:18< ancestral> Anyone running OS X?
20091011 07:58:46< n3penthe> or it depends
20091011 07:59:29< n3penthe> looks like they're 8 or 9 hexes apart from player 1/2 the keeps which would mean that 
20091011 07:59:42< n3penthe> i mean player 2/3
20091011 07:59:58< n3penthe> which would mean that if they dont have a unitw ith 9 movement then player would take all villages before them
20091011 08:00:07< n3penthe> although
20091011 08:00:23< n3penthe> i guess they can only do that 8 movement units like bats 
20091011 08:00:38< n3penthe> I dont know 
20091011 08:00:40< n3penthe> nevermind I cant tell
20091011 08:06:04< meowreka> bats are hax
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20091011 08:57:13< n3penthe> hey
20091011 08:57:19< n3penthe> could anyone recommend a 
20091011 08:57:19< n3penthe> challenging campaign
20091011 08:57:30< n3penthe> ?
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20091011 09:08:14< zookeeper> any expert campaign on hard..?
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20091011 10:19:14< n3penthe> hey
20091011 10:19:32< n3penthe> Could someone tell me which add-on comes with the 3 player survival map named 3pSurvival with 3 areas shaped like bottles
20091011 10:19:32< n3penthe> ?
20091011 10:22:09< Soliton> Nosmos' SurvivalPack
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20091011 10:24:15< n3penthe> kk thx
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20091011 10:31:34< n3penthe> hmm the map doesnt appear in the list of maps after downloading the add-on for some reason
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20091011 10:36:29< n3penthe> it's in the folder though 
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20091011 11:18:59< Ivanovic> moin
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20091011 17:33:30< meowreka> hi guys
20091011 17:34:15< Aethaeryn> hey
20091011 17:34:29< meowreka> I tried to make a balanced map
20091011 17:34:31< meowreka> ;o;
20091011 17:34:40< Aethaeryn> Balanced maps are more boring, aren't they?
20091011 17:34:50< meowreka> actually
20091011 17:34:52< meowreka> this is incredibly fun
20091011 17:35:01< meowreka> but I want to know if I'm missing any terrain types or of my placement is wonky
20091011 17:35:08< Aethaeryn> In my mappack, my only attempt at a mainline-style balanced map is Twin Rivers. It took just as long as some of my fancy/fun maps but it isn't as fun to make/playtest.
20091011 17:35:25< meowreka> http://imgur.com/AS58v.jpg
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20091011 17:35:51< Aethaeryn> Drakes again, meowreka :P
20091011 17:36:03< meowreka> how do I fix drakes
20091011 17:36:03< meowreka> D:
20091011 17:36:09-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit []
20091011 17:36:15< meowreka> I'm not understanding
20091011 17:36:18< Aethaeryn> Replace chasms/lava with impassables.
20091011 17:36:24< meowreka> oh
20091011 17:36:24< Aethaeryn> And you'll fix it for flier/drake imbalances.
20091011 17:36:26< meowreka> they are impassable
20091011 17:36:28< meowreka> lol
20091011 17:36:30< meowreka> look at the minimap
20091011 17:36:32< meowreka> they're solid black
20091011 17:36:36< Aethaeryn> Ok, good.
20091011 17:36:44< Aethaeryn> How'd you do that again?
20091011 17:36:48< meowreka> err
20091011 17:36:51< meowreka> there's a special tile
20091011 17:36:52< Aethaeryn> Overlay?
20091011 17:36:56< meowreka> with an [I]
20091011 17:36:57< meowreka> I guess
20091011 17:37:03< meowreka> it's an overlay of sorts
20091011 17:37:07< Aethaeryn> Must be a new-ish feature.
20091011 17:37:09< meowreka> you put that tile on top of any other tile
20091011 17:37:13< Aethaeryn> Most of my active mapmaking time was late 1.3
20091011 17:37:14< meowreka> and it becomes impassable
20091011 17:37:21< Aethaeryn> Interesting.
20091011 17:37:23< meowreka> I'm excited for map making in 1.7
20091011 17:37:28< meowreka> it has fun tools ^o^
20091011 17:37:59< Aethaeryn> Ah, I see the I
20091011 17:38:10< Aethaeryn> Must be new in 1.6 or 1.7, depending on whatever you're using.
20091011 17:38:21< meowreka> 1.6
20091011 17:38:28< Aethaeryn> Still, probably best in moderation for things like chasms and lavas to not confuse people.
20091011 17:38:29< meowreka> but I don't know if it's new TO 1.6 or if it's just newer than 1.3
20091011 17:38:38< Aethaeryn> Most useful on making lava impassable. Now I can finally make a volcano map
20091011 17:38:45< Aethaeryn> It's probably new to 1.6
20091011 17:38:52< meowreka> lol.
20091011 17:38:56< Aethaeryn> late 1.3 and early 1.4 = the last stable
20091011 17:39:00< meowreka> did you like the garbage in the empty spaces
20091011 17:39:06< Aethaeryn> which means it had to have been released in really late 1.3 and I forgot or somewhere in 1.5
20091011 17:39:13< Aethaeryn> Okay...
20091011 17:39:24< Aethaeryn> (1) one-wide spaces are not liked in maps because they lead to bottlenecking.
20091011 17:39:25< meowreka> the random forests, mountains, water and stuff in the lava
20091011 17:39:39< Aethaeryn> You'll notice that most cave maps in mainline, if not all, have two-wide spaces at the narrowest.
20091011 17:39:54< meowreka> yeah?
20091011 17:39:59< meowreka> none of the battling goes on there
20091011 17:40:03< Aethaeryn> Still...
20091011 17:40:03< meowreka> it all goes on in the middle
20091011 17:40:17< meowreka> the bottlenecking prevents people from foolishly trying to escape the middle before it's time
20091011 17:40:23< meowreka> then they'll face an assault from both sides with no escape
20091011 17:40:28< Aethaeryn> Or stalling the end after it's time...
20091011 17:40:35< meowreka> nah
20091011 17:40:43< meowreka> whoever is victorious in the middle gets all the villages
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20091011 17:40:55< meowreka> there's no way for the person hiding in his keep to win at that point
20091011 17:41:16< Aethaeryn> (2) The actual center of the map battlefield is extremely tiny. I've tried my hand at tiny maps when I went through a phase at the beginning of my mapping carrer. Chambers and Gladiator Arena are the most obvious examples...
20091011 17:41:29< meowreka> I've playtested the map
20091011 17:41:30< Aethaeryn> I'd recommend widening the battlefield a tiny bit, and having another wave of terrain.
20091011 17:41:40< blarumyrran> Doesnt player 1 have a huge advantage
20091011 17:41:43< Aethaeryn> A mix of sand and terrain on the edge.
20091011 17:41:45< meowreka> nah
20091011 17:41:51< meowreka> drakes don't need sand
20091011 17:42:06< Aethaeryn> Another row of combat so it's not a short battle: once you break through, there's no place to retreat back except the bottlenecks.
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20091011 17:42:14< Aethaeryn> Look at mainline maps and notice patterns.
20091011 17:42:16< meowreka> none of the default maps even have sand
20091011 17:42:32< Aethaeryn> In extreme moderation, yes.
20091011 17:42:41< Aethaeryn> But look at a whole lot of sand in Wilderlands and you're proven wrong. :P
20091011 17:42:42< blarumyrran> Like half of the new isar's cross is sand
20091011 17:42:46< Aethaeryn> And Isar's too
20091011 17:42:51< meowreka> wilderlands is kind of lame
20091011 17:42:58< meowreka> and those are the only maps with sand so I think I'm doing fine
20091011 17:43:06< Aethaeryn> I love it... It's just that no one wants to play Wilderlands with me as it'd take all day.
20091011 17:43:17< meowreka> I hate wilderlands.
20091011 17:43:37< Aethaeryn> But anyway, in mainline, you're not fighting in the middle of the map... You're fighting at fronts beyond the middle, and there aren't even any villages in the middle.
20091011 17:43:47< meowreka> yes there are
20091011 17:43:49< Aethaeryn> You're not fighting over the middle, but rather a no-man's-land that belongs clearly to no one.
20091011 17:43:58< Aethaeryn> Think trenches.
20091011 17:44:01< meowreka> I don't think you get
20091011 17:44:04< meowreka> that this isn't a mainline map
20091011 17:44:10< meowreka> it's meant to be fun, not competitive
20091011 17:44:16< Aethaeryn> Yes, but I don't think you get it.
20091011 17:44:25< Aethaeryn> 11:35:01 < meowreka> I tried to make a balanced map
20091011 17:44:34< meowreka> who has the greatest advantage in this map
20091011 17:44:37< Aethaeryn> If you claim at all that it is balanced, I'll tell you what's wrong with it. :P
20091011 17:44:56< Aethaeryn> It's 3p, it's self-balancing.
20091011 17:44:59< meowreka> I don't want you to tell me to make the game last longer
20091011 17:45:06< meowreka> I don't want it to last long
20091011 17:45:10< Aethaeryn> In other words, even if p1 has a slight advantage, he'll be ganged up on by p2/3
20091011 17:45:15< meowreka> I want to know how has a distinct advantage
20091011 17:45:17< Aethaeryn> meowreka: Small maps do *not* make a quicker game!
20091011 17:45:29< Aethaeryn> Often bottlenecking makes them go just as long as a larger map, just in a more boring way!
20091011 17:45:37< Aethaeryn> I've seen this *numerous* times.
20091011 17:45:55< meowreka> I can fill in the space between the two paths
20091011 17:45:58< meowreka> that's no big deal
20091011 17:46:00< Aethaeryn> If you want a quicker game, take inspiration from small mainline maps like Hamlets. The action doesn't need to be clustered in a tiny area...
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20091011 17:46:04< meowreka> stop complaining about that and give me a nicer idea
20091011 17:46:28< Aethaeryn> My point is that all your action area is clustered to an extremely tiny front.
20091011 17:46:31< meowreka> yes
20091011 17:46:34< meowreka> I made it for that
20091011 17:46:46< Aethaeryn> That is not *at all* the kind of fighting Default Era is designed for.
20091011 17:46:56< meowreka> default era
20091011 17:46:59< meowreka> is designed for any kind of fighting
20091011 17:47:08< meowreka> if I so choose to make it
20091011 17:47:14< Aethaeryn> No.
20091011 17:47:34< meowreka> if you play the map with an open mind I promise you'll enjoy it.
20091011 17:48:06< Aethaeryn> Enjoy it, possibly. Calling it balanced, or even pretending it's remotely balanced/fair, not so.
20091011 17:48:24< meowreka> which side or faction has the greatest advantage
20091011 17:48:34< Aethaeryn> There is such a thing as a battle too tiny. In about 5 minutes I can make a map smaller than yours that takes hours to play. :P
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20091011 17:48:57< Aethaeryn> I can't tell you off the top of my head, meowreka... This one isn't an issue of factions.
20091011 17:49:21< meowreka> what makes it unbalanced
20091011 17:49:28< Aethaeryn> It's an issue of #1 anyone with water units can't recruit water units because it'd be quite a long walk of uselessness until getting to the water. Therefore factions with fliers, in particular Knalgans or Undead, would have the victory in the water battle.
20091011 17:49:42< Aethaeryn> (I.e. they could get high defense on the water village, no one else could.)
20091011 17:50:03< meowreka> alright
20091011 17:50:03< meowreka> and
20091011 17:50:18< meowreka> flying units are fairly weak
20091011 17:50:19< Aethaeryn> #2 It's a long walk to the battle... On flat. Knalgans have a disadvantage here because the slow dwarves will be attacked in the tiny corridors on 30% defense before they get to defensive terrain.
20091011 17:50:26< meowreka> they're overpowered quickly
20091011 17:50:48< meowreka> don't dwarves have 1 point cost to get down to the battle
20091011 17:50:55< meowreka> besides
20091011 17:50:59< meowreka> you could argue that for any map
20091011 17:51:00< Aethaeryn> The alternative to Dwarves are fragile elusives that are the outlaws... They'll not be able to hold off the front
20091011 17:51:10< meowreka> dwarves are slow everywhere
20091011 17:51:15< meowreka> they make up for that in power
20091011 17:51:19< Aethaeryn> #3 Wesnoth combat is designed for retreating/advancing at ToD if it's a lawful v. chaotic matchup.
20091011 17:51:28< meowreka> yes it is
20091011 17:51:32< meowreka> that's why I prevented that
20091011 17:51:33< Aethaeryn> There is NO place to retreat if all the action is in the very far center. This is why mainline maps don't have village action there.
20091011 17:51:43< Aethaeryn> You retreat, you lose a lot of gold.
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20091011 17:51:49< meowreka> don't retreat then
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20091011 17:53:04< Aethaeryn> Then you don't even understand the most basic principles of map balance, and don't pretend to ask for advice because your reply to any advice is "Okay, then don't play x or do x..." or "It's my choice to do it this way, it's supposed to be fun not balanced..." or "So what?"
20091011 17:53:19< meowreka> hm.
20091011 17:53:26< meowreka> I want to know about the tile types
20091011 17:53:44< blarumyrran> Most of them are hexagonal
20091011 17:53:51< Aethaeryn> You're very dismissive of advice, and I can give you *plenty* of advice when it comes to maps because I've been mapping since 1.2/1.3 and have lurked the forums a lot and played MP a lot and picked up a lot on balance
20091011 17:53:55< meowreka> which ones aren't
20091011 17:53:59< Aethaeryn> meowreka: Walls.
20091011 17:54:07< blarumyrran> Walls are hexagonal
20091011 17:54:07< Aethaeryn> They're pseudo-isometric
20091011 17:54:19< Aethaeryn> They look like squares although they're still hexes, the transitions are interesting.
20091011 17:54:46< blarumyrran> They dont really look like squares
20091011 17:55:06< blarumyrran> Which is why doing wall tiles is a nightmare
20091011 17:55:32< Aethaeryn> I guess I'll find out eventually... If no one else does the spaceship/bunker walls.
20091011 17:56:08< meowreka> I don't know how I am supposed to expand a map like this
20091011 17:56:12< Aethaeryn> meowreka: But yeah, if you don't want advice... Don't ask for advice.
20091011 17:56:33< Aethaeryn> It's extremely offensive for you to ask for advice and then dismiss every point of it and act like you're a perfect mapper already.
20091011 17:56:37< meowreka> I have taken your advice
20091011 17:57:01< meowreka> I'll show you the better map in a bit
20091011 17:57:10< Aethaeryn> No. Your replies to my advice are BS reasons why your map is still balanced despite my comments.
20091011 17:57:33< meowreka> sometimes when someone replies like that it means they are full of pride and hate to admit being wrong
20091011 17:57:39< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091011 17:57:54< meowreka> just been in a bad mood today that's all
20091011 17:57:57< Aethaeryn> The one problem with someone with a big ego taking advice... is that usually the person giving advice also has an ego.
20091011 17:57:58< meowreka> sorry if I offended you though
20091011 17:58:01< Aethaeryn> And a bad mood. :P
20091011 17:58:20< meowreka> but I'm sure you have a lot to learn as well
20091011 17:58:24< Aethaeryn> Human nature, after all. If people didn't have egos there wouldn't be wars because everything would be solved diplomatically.
20091011 17:58:35< meowreka> with the impassable overlay tile
20091011 17:58:43< meowreka> maps can be made balanced while still being very aesthetically pleasing
20091011 17:58:57< blarumyrran> Aethaeryn, I dont really understand your sentence
20091011 17:59:16< meowreka> you could even use the light tile to help mark the tiles you can't pass
20091011 17:59:17< Aethaeryn> blarumyrran: Basically, pride leads to conflict.
20091011 17:59:33< blarumyrran> Aethaeryn, sentience leads to conflict
20091011 17:59:38 * Soliton is wondering if playing instead of talking might be a better way to test a map.
20091011 17:59:59< meowreka> yeah
20091011 18:00:01< meowreka> I did play test it
20091011 18:00:03< meowreka> and it worked fine
20091011 18:00:11< meowreka> then again nobody played drakes or dwarves
20091011 18:00:23< Aethaeryn> Exactly. You need to play more than once... With everyone as random.
20091011 18:00:33< meowreka> I just don't get the "no flat tile" argument because
20091011 18:00:35< Aethaeryn> And it might take a dozen or more games to find flaws.
20091011 18:00:37< meowreka> so few units are good on those
20091011 18:00:42< meowreka> they're all pretty much average
20091011 18:00:50< Aethaeryn> Eh, it's just that you have too *much* flat and not enough defensive.
20091011 18:00:57< meowreka> well
20091011 18:00:58< meowreka> man
20091011 18:00:59< Aethaeryn> I tend to be the opposite. I find the flat terrains ugly so I tend to not use them as much as I should.
20091011 18:01:01< meowreka> if there's not any flat
20091011 18:01:04< meowreka> how are people supposed to walk around
20091011 18:01:22< Aethaeryn> meowreka: Look at Clash... or a few other mainline maps... to see how they do terrain.
20091011 18:01:31< Aethaeryn> There's a certain technique to distributing terrain.
20091011 18:01:35< meowreka> there's flat tile
20091011 18:01:38< meowreka> in between all the keeps
20091011 18:01:43< meowreka> leading from one to another
20091011 18:01:53< meowreka> because if there weren't, certain factions would be at a disadvantage
20091011 18:01:56< Aethaeryn> You can say "screw technique x" or "screw technique y" but you need to be able to *understand* the technique you're ignoring first.
20091011 18:02:21< Aethaeryn> For example, in Hide and Seek, I said "eh, might as well make 90% of the map forest." but the point is 2 non-rebels vs. 1 rebels player :P
20091011 18:02:43< Aethaeryn> I do like the idea of illuminated impassables, though.
20091011 18:02:56< Aethaeryn> That's why if you can't be bothered to learn the MP technique, it may be better if you make an MP campaign, meowreka.
20091011 18:03:07< meowreka> I know MP technique
20091011 18:03:08< Aethaeryn> Campaign or fancy WML-utilizing scenario.
20091011 18:03:14< meowreka> I'm trying to get around it ):
20091011 18:03:45< Aethaeryn> Eh, some techniques make sense though... such as allowing for multiple lines of combat so it isn't over first time they retreat or you break a hole in their line.
20091011 18:04:01< Aethaeryn> And not having villages in the center but rather have villages behind the 1st and 2nd line of defense.
20091011 18:04:34< blarumyrran> Mainline 1v1v1 dont follow that
20091011 18:04:51< Aethaeryn> 1v1v1 isn't that balanced to begin with
20091011 18:04:57< Aethaeryn> They're probably right behind Isar's in terms of imbalance.
20091011 18:04:58< meowreka> it's as balanced as you make it
20091011 18:05:05< Aethaeryn> It's hard to naturally balance 3 teams
20091011 18:05:23< meowreka> if you go in with the idea that it won't work, it won't
20091011 18:05:43< meowreka> because you'll be too busy complaining about small details to play it correctly
20091011 18:05:50< meowreka> yes this has happened before
20091011 18:06:05< meowreka> people spent the whole game complaining about irrelevant details and in turn made poor strategic moves and I beat them because they were distracted
20091011 18:06:44< Aethaeryn> Eh, my point is you can't call it balanced without every faction having a roughly equal chance of winning. 
20091011 18:06:51< meowreka> they do
20091011 18:07:01< Aethaeryn> Then you don't understand Default Era.
20091011 18:07:09< Aethaeryn> The factions are all very different in how they beenfit from terrain, ToD, movement, etc.
20091011 18:07:23< Aethaeryn> They may seem similar, but they'll all play the same situation very differently.
20091011 18:07:49< meowreka> people play imbalanced maps anyway
20091011 18:07:52< meowreka> because they're fun
20091011 18:07:55< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091011 18:07:59< Aethaeryn> But don't claim your map is balanced!
20091011 18:08:06< meowreka> I think it is
20091011 18:08:12< Aethaeryn> it's not. I'd be fine if you said "My map may be imbalanced, but it's fun."
20091011 18:08:19< Aethaeryn> But claiming blindly your map is balanced, that's just not cool.
20091011 18:08:28< Aethaeryn> It's not a mortal sin to say "My map is imbalanced."
20091011 18:08:48< Aethaeryn> Most of the maps in my mappack are very imbalanced, often the imbalance is the point of it (the 3v2, the 2v1, the 3v1, etc.)
20091011 18:09:09< Aethaeryn> In fact, I'd say my favorite kind of map to make is the "handicap map"
20091011 18:09:28< meowreka> I think it's balanced
20091011 18:09:41< Aethaeryn> ...
20091011 18:09:48< Aethaeryn> Hello circle, meet argument.
20091011 18:10:16< meowreka> I stopped arguing quite a while ago
20091011 18:10:41< Aethaeryn> You think the map is balanced, I think the US didn't land on the Moon. I guess we can agree to disagree then.
20091011 18:10:44< meowreka> ok
20091011 18:10:50< meowreka> I made retreat places
20091011 18:10:56-!- Woodmouse_afk is now known as Woodmouse
20091011 18:10:59< Aethaeryn> Just don't ask me for advice ever again, because I see you're impossible to give advice to.
20091011 18:11:09< meowreka> I made sections to the north
20091011 18:11:10< meowreka> southeast
20091011 18:11:12< meowreka> and southwest
20091011 18:11:14< meowreka> for people to retreat
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20091011 18:53:29< meowreka> ok
20091011 18:53:49< meowreka> just played an AI battle on the map
20091011 18:53:53< meowreka> the dwarves won
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20091011 18:55:00< Aethaeryn> Because AI battles are the easiest way to test for balance.
20091011 18:55:06-!- Woodmouse is now known as Woodmouse_afk
20091011 18:55:07< meowreka> well lol
20091011 18:55:14< meowreka> the dwarves made some really poor decisions
20091011 18:55:23< meowreka> they made 4 gryphon riders and lost all but one in about two turns
20091011 18:55:35< meowreka> but the one made it to some side villages, and nobody payed any atention to it
20091011 18:55:45< meowreka> after a few turns the dwarf built up a massive army and stormed the center
20091011 18:55:51< Aethaeryn> *Exactly* the way a match with humans would go
20091011 18:56:07< blarumyrran> If you play it properly, that is
20091011 18:56:15< blarumyrran> Proper play is very important!
20091011 18:56:21< meowreka> anyway
20091011 18:56:25< blarumyrran> Of course it breaks the map if you play it
20091011 18:56:26< meowreka> I did some things to the map
20091011 18:56:27< blarumyrran> unproperly
20091011 18:56:51< meowreka> I added some more mountains in the middle
20091011 18:57:00< meowreka> because, it takes so long for the dwarves to get there, they need an advantage
20091011 18:57:17< meowreka> plus added some retreat locations and widened the bottleneck
20091011 18:57:19< meowreka> http://imgur.com/qJV7I.jpg
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20091011 18:59:14< meowreka> just tell me anywhere I should place a different terrain tile and I will try my best to put it in there
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20091011 19:25:04< Aethaeryn> meowreka: You're clearly not going for mainline style, so just do whatever you want.
20091011 19:25:25< Aethaeryn> Trial and error is the only way to improve your map. No theoretical stuff.
20091011 19:26:54< meowreka> are you sure
20091011 19:27:01< Aethaeryn> Though my two cents is that you like flat + tunnel-bottleneck isn't a good thing.
20091011 19:27:11< Aethaeryn> you want 2-or-3-hex + some defensive terrain, perhaps castle.
20091011 19:27:24< Aethaeryn> castle or hill+forest are both pretty much fair terrains.
20091011 19:27:27< meowreka> I actually uh
20091011 19:27:31< meowreka> http://imgur.com/4NxmS.jpg
20091011 19:27:34< meowreka> I did that
20091011 19:27:56< Aethaeryn> eh, my point is one-wide openings aren't fun... they stall the game.
20091011 19:28:05< Aethaeryn> If you want a quicker game, make it more open. If you want a slower game, make it more narrow.
20091011 19:28:25< meowreka> I don't think many people will be fighting in the narrow spots all that often
20091011 19:28:27< meowreka> but we'll see
20091011 19:28:34< Aethaeryn> Probably more than you think.
20091011 19:28:44< Aethaeryn> This is 3p, too, so someone about to lose could run with everything in there just to annoy.
20091011 19:28:56< Aethaeryn> The top is a great bottleneck if you have 3-4 units to cycle around
20091011 19:29:35< meowreka> hrmph.
20091011 19:29:51< meowreka> I don't know how to fix that.
20091011 19:31:03< Aethaeryn> It's simple to fix a bottleneck: just make anything 2-wide or 3-wide instead of 1-wide. It's 2x as hard to defend a 2-hex castle opening and 3x as hard to defend a 3-hex castle opening.
20091011 19:31:20< meowreka> I'll just remove the walls
20091011 19:32:29< meowreka> your personal opinion... do you think
20091011 19:32:31< meowreka> removing the north area
20091011 19:32:36< meowreka> would hurt the game much?
20091011 19:33:10< Aethaeryn> Your map is so unique and original that I can't comment on actual gameplay and map design principles... It's your personal choice as to how you want the game to play.
20091011 19:33:22< Aethaeryn> The only thing I can tell you is to avoid common mistakes, like one-wide bottlenecks.
20091011 19:33:33< Aethaeryn> Enough playtests will show someone annoyingly exploiting them.
20091011 19:33:54< Aethaeryn> But really, you just need to play the map over and over again against humans and tweak it every time something bad comes up.
20091011 19:35:12< Aethaeryn> I see a lot of unexpected places where your map can slow down. You want your map to play fast, so the more open the better.
20091011 19:39:13< meowreka> oh jesus
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20091011 19:39:20< meowreka> I hate it when undead attack my ulfzerker with a GHOST
20091011 19:39:26< meowreka> it's ridiculous
20091011 19:40:02< Aethaeryn> At night, the ghost wins. At day, the ghost loses.
20091011 19:40:12< meowreka> it was straight up dya
20091011 19:40:13< meowreka> day*
20091011 19:40:16< meowreka> the point of the matter is
20091011 19:40:19< meowreka> it DRAINS
20091011 19:40:22< Aethaeryn> Then you can call BS.
20091011 19:40:23< Aethaeryn> Unfortun
20091011 19:40:28< Aethaeryn> ately...
20091011 19:40:38< meowreka> drain vs berzerk = NO NO NO
20091011 19:40:45< meowreka> that battle lasts for frikken ever
20091011 19:40:48< Aethaeryn> Drain + Berserk = awesome.
20091011 19:40:49< Aethaeryn> Yeah.
20091011 19:40:58< meowreka> and nobody wins that battle
20091011 19:40:59< meowreka> NOBODY
20091011 19:41:03< Aethaeryn> Yep.
20091011 19:41:11< meowreka> nobody wins a headbutt
20091011 19:41:11< Aethaeryn> It could end with 1 HP or 18 :P
20091011 19:41:17< Aethaeryn> Ghosts are only guarunteed-win at night though
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20091011 19:47:25< meowreka> some unbalanced maps are included in default multiplayer
20091011 19:47:30< meowreka> why is that?
20091011 19:49:21< Soliton> which ones?
20091011 19:49:29< meowreka> err
20091011 19:49:40< meowreka> I heard on the forum somewhere that one of the maps was incredibly unbalanced?
20091011 19:49:52< Aethaeryn> Isar's Cross
20091011 19:50:03< Aethaeryn> That's because it's impossible to balance a tiny map like that
20091011 19:50:23< Soliton> it's not "incredibly" unbalanced.
20091011 19:50:37< meowreka> no not that
20091011 19:50:48< Soliton> but probably the least balanced map indeed and mostly there for its popularity.
20091011 19:51:11< meowreka> I heard "Den of Onis" was unbalanced?
20091011 19:51:12< Aethaeryn> it's only dissed when people call it balanced
20091011 19:51:35< Aethaeryn> meowreka: No, Badlands
20091011 19:51:40< meowreka> oh.
20091011 19:51:41< Aethaeryn> That's the one they call unbalanced. The desert one.
20091011 19:51:48< Aethaeryn> And that's a very specific instance: p1 orcish grunt rush.
20091011 19:52:00< meowreka> is badlands default?
20091011 19:52:03< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091011 19:52:10< Soliton> oh yeah, but it should be fixed in 1.7, i think.
20091011 19:52:15< Aethaeryn> But, again, one very specific instance.
20091011 19:52:35< meowreka> does anyone want to play
20091011 19:52:37< meowreka> my map with me?
20091011 19:53:33< meowreka> I'd get random people from official but
20091011 19:53:35< meowreka> they tend to quit
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20091011 19:56:31< Aethaeryn> meowreka: make friends on the server then
20091011 19:56:42< meowreka> ehh
20091011 19:56:48< meowreka> in the next five minutes, I suppose?
20091011 19:56:55< Aethaeryn> I suppose
20091011 19:57:07< Aethaeryn> Or if you play enough you'll know who to trust, maybe even find a few fans.
20091011 19:57:11< meowreka> http://imgur.com/DirGv.jpg
20091011 19:57:19< Aethaeryn> It's really hard to get people on IRC to join
20091011 19:57:56< Aethaeryn> meowreka: I like it.
20091011 19:57:58< Aethaeryn> Looks much better
20091011 19:58:22< Aethaeryn> Your intermediate edits were, no offense, a bit messy-looking
20091011 19:58:37< meowreka> maps tend to look messy
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20091011 19:58:53< meowreka> the center is where all the action goes on
20091011 19:59:00< meowreka> there's essentially every terrain type there
20091011 19:59:27< meowreka> actually I'm going to remove villages from the north and southeast/southwest
20091011 19:59:39< meowreka> as is people will likely be drawn to them because there are villages there
20091011 19:59:46< Aethaeryn> Perhaps add some dwarven (dark) castles along the cave edge of the map
20091011 20:00:05< Aethaeryn> meowreka: Just make one village there?
20091011 20:00:21< Aethaeryn> Give enough motive for *some* kind of periphery fight, as long as they're not *focused* there.
20091011 20:01:57< meowreka> yes
20091011 20:01:59< meowreka> there's 1 village in there
20091011 20:02:09< meowreka> I also added a few villages in other places
20091011 20:02:47< Aethaeryn> what about some dark castle in some areas that are currently cave to mix it up a bit?
20091011 20:02:57< Aethaeryn> Does it look good?
20091011 20:03:09< meowreka> dark castle in there?
20091011 20:03:10< meowreka> eh.
20091011 20:03:18< meowreka> does anyone have bonuses on cave tile?
20091011 20:03:24< meowreka> I kind of want to make it hard to walk through those sections
20091011 20:03:30< meowreka> http://i38.tinypic.com/2llbxaq.png
20091011 20:03:42< Aethaeryn> Dwarves will have an easy time walking there ;)
20091011 20:03:52< meowreka> sigh.
20091011 20:04:06< meowreka> I'll just put an unwalkable pit somewhere in there
20091011 20:04:25< Aethaeryn> Or mushroom...
20091011 20:04:42< Aethaeryn> dwarves aren't that good on mushroom
20091011 20:04:56< Aethaeryn> If you want water units used at all you'd need either auxillery keeps or a line of ford. Lines of ford don't necessarily look bad.
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20091011 20:06:55< meowreka> water units don't need to be used
20091011 20:06:59< meowreka> that water is there mostly to impede
20091011 20:08:46< Aethaeryn> ok
20091011 20:09:46< meowreka> I would put deep water but then it would give flying units too much of a chance
20091011 20:09:54< Aethaeryn> meowreka: how about widening the map, adding more lava, and thickening the one-wide cave walls? Perhaps that might look better for decoration
20091011 20:10:10< meowreka> I like the lava
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20091011 20:10:25< meowreka> the 1-wide cave walls aren't meant for walking ):
20091011 20:10:27< Aethaeryn> Ford won't impede, btw
20091011 20:10:34< Aethaeryn> If it counts as water/flat they'll treat it as flat
20091011 20:10:36< Aethaeryn> perhaps reef?
20091011 20:10:45< meowreka> aren't those reefs?
20091011 20:11:47< Aethaeryn> Reefs are the big one.
20091011 20:11:53< meowreka> reefs have rocks
20091011 20:12:07< Aethaeryn> On that tiny map it looks like ford
20091011 20:12:08< Aethaeryn> can't tell for sure
20091011 20:12:20< Aethaeryn> Mouse over it to check
20091011 20:12:28< meowreka> 'k
20091011 20:12:36< meowreka> http://i34.tinypic.com/2zf5qnp.png
20091011 20:12:41< meowreka> it's reef now though
20091011 20:13:53< Aethaeryn> The map *looks* good
20091011 20:13:59< Aethaeryn> Now play it and see
20091011 20:14:11< Aethaeryn> I'll observe since I'm busy...
20091011 20:14:23< Aethaeryn> Looks much better than earlier
20091011 20:20:17< meowreka> hum
20091011 20:20:20< meowreka> I made changes
20091011 20:20:26< meowreka> I'll be in 1.6.5 official server though
20091011 20:22:47< Aethaeryn> I'm on the 1.6.4 official server
20091011 20:23:04< Aethaeryn> What a coincidence, same thing ;)
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20091011 20:25:45< meowreka> is it the same thing
20091011 20:26:31< Aethaeryn> 1.6 is stable, so 1.6.0 can play with 1.6.5
20091011 20:26:42< Aethaeryn> 1.7 is unstable, so 1.7.4 cannot play with 1.7.6
20091011 20:26:46< meowreka> 'k
20091011 20:26:51< meowreka> well the game is up if you wanna come
20091011 20:27:01< Aethaeryn> All the balancing changes in MP are done in odd numbers
20091011 20:27:04< Aethaeryn> the major developments
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20091011 21:17:19< meowreka> hi aerearareearearaethryn
20091011 21:28:20< meowreka> hi
20091011 21:30:37< Aethaeryn> meowreka: nope, I wasn't there. :P
20091011 21:30:44< meowreka> hi
20091011 21:31:07< Aethaeryn> it's called "football game"
20091011 21:31:23< Aethaeryn> Ravens winning 14-10, but it's too close to not watch.
20091011 21:31:38< meowreka> making the best map ever atm
20091011 21:32:06< Aethaeryn> best part is that the most recent touchdown, to get the Ravens winning, was by Ray Rice, the only Ravens player on my fantasy football team.
20091011 21:32:27< Aethaeryn> 19 points... you don't see that every week...
20091011 21:36:11< meowreka> I do
20091011 21:36:50< Aethaeryn> 19 points in fantasy football
20091011 21:36:51< Aethaeryn> :P
20091011 21:37:17< meowreka> I do
20091011 21:41:37< meowreka> man
20091011 21:41:42< meowreka> your map pack doesn't help me understand anything at all
20091011 21:41:53< meowreka> if I remove the pre-defined side garbage will it just allow human players or what
20091011 21:42:14< Aethaeryn> meowreka: what do you mean?
20091011 21:42:32< Aethaeryn> Look at a simple map, like Gladiator Arena or Chambers...
20091011 21:42:40< meowreka> err
20091011 21:42:44< Aethaeryn> Fortress Defense is the worst one you can look at because it's a survival.
20091011 21:42:56< Aethaeryn> Most of my maps have simple WML, Twin Rivers, for instance.
20091011 21:43:35< meowreka> what is team_lock
20091011 21:43:50< Aethaeryn> meowreka: which map are you looking at?
20091011 21:43:58< Aethaeryn> Fortress Assault? Fortress Defense?
20091011 21:44:08< meowreka> gladiator.
20091011 21:44:14< meowreka> team_lock=1 for both teams
20091011 21:44:14< Aethaeryn> Hrmm
20091011 21:44:24< Aethaeryn> Probably means locks teams so host can't change the team
20091011 21:44:41< Aethaeryn> Yep.
20091011 21:46:06< meowreka> is that in the wml reference
20091011 21:46:26< Aethaeryn> The documentation is bad, just copy someone else's work.
20091011 21:46:33< Aethaeryn> Gladiator Arena's about as simple as you're going to get
20091011 21:46:46< Aethaeryn> just add a side=3
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20091011 21:48:32< Aethaeryn> Even the settings are standard for MP
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20091011 21:51:49< Aethaeryn> meowreka: got the code to work?
20091011 21:52:06< meowreka> nope.
20091011 21:52:16< Aethaeryn> pastebin?
20091011 21:52:45< meowreka> I need the server.pbl file
20091011 21:52:51< meowreka> I overwrote yours
20091011 21:53:27< Aethaeryn> So you need to upload it?
20091011 21:53:35< meowreka> what is the uh
20091011 21:53:36< meowreka> type
20091011 21:53:40< meowreka> mappack
20091011 21:53:42< meowreka> or map_pack
20091011 21:53:43< meowreka> or what
20091011 21:53:48< Aethaeryn> type=map_pack
20091011 21:53:52< meowreka> did that
20091011 21:53:55< meowreka> won't recognize it
20091011 21:54:03< Aethaeryn> that's what I used
20091011 21:54:14< meowreka> it's not recognizing the add-on
20091011 21:54:17< Aethaeryn> something else wrong?
20091011 21:54:37< Aethaeryn> title=, icon=, version=, author=, passphrase=, description=, type=, email=
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20091011 21:56:42< meowreka> email is not required
20091011 21:57:16-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit ["meh"]
20091011 21:58:10< zookeeper> maybe you did something wrong.
20091011 21:59:59< meowreka> yeah
20091011 22:00:02< meowreka> something YOU did wrong eh
20091011 22:00:07< meowreka> apparently.
20091011 22:01:11< meowreka> nope I did something terrible wrong
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20091011 22:26:50< meowreka> alright guys
20091011 22:27:03< meowreka> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27430
20091011 22:30:57-!- Woodmouse_AFK is now known as Woodmouse
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20091011 22:55:04< asdf_> hello, does wesnoth block access from 147.226.192.104?
20091011 22:56:07< Soliton> no.
20091011 22:57:18< meowreka> k
20091011 22:58:21< asdf_> oh ok
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20091011 23:28:07< Woodmouse> bye
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 12 00:00:30 2009