--- Log opened Mon Oct 26 00:00:42 2009
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20091026 00:54:13< Mythological> wesbot: seen Noyga
20091026 00:54:13< wesbot> Mythological: The person with the nick Noyga last spoke 35d 4h ago.  15h 33m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-dev with the message: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
20091026 00:54:32< Mythological> wesbot: thank you very much
20091026 00:54:32< wesbot> Mythological: You are welcome.
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20091026 01:50:08< angasule> hey, anyone awake? I'm stuck in Invasion from the Unknown in Strike on New Knalga
20091026 02:01:34< Zarel> Which one is that?
20091026 02:02:07< Zarel> And why wouldn't anyone be awake? In all of the US, it's only 9PM EDT, 6PM PDT.
20091026 02:04:01< Aethaeryn> Generally, someone is always awake at any given moment... even if you only count the English speaking countries of Canada/US, the UK, and Australia.
20091026 02:04:12< Aethaeryn> Since they're all in very different time zones.
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20091026 02:04:58< Aethaeryn> Not to mention that some people go to bed at 4 am and some get up at 4 am.
20091026 02:05:01< Zarel> cough.
20091026 02:05:20< Zarel> Hey, Aethaeryn, remember when we did that once? :D
20091026 02:05:37< Aethaeryn> It was 5 am
20091026 02:05:44< Aethaeryn> People forget time zons.
20091026 02:05:46< Aethaeryn> :P
20091026 02:05:48< Zarel> It was something ridiculous like that.
20091026 02:05:58< Aethaeryn> Nah, it was 4 am for you and 5 am for me.
20091026 02:06:01< Aethaeryn> Different times.
20091026 02:06:20< Aethaeryn> But yes, I like philosophical discussions too much.
20091026 02:06:44< Aethaeryn> I wonder how much of the story I'm going to write is going to be extended monologues going up against each other...
20091026 02:08:21< Zarel> Hopefully not.
20091026 02:09:36< Zarel> Oh, idea!
20091026 02:09:58< Zarel> You have a campaign in which the antagonist keeps on trying to justify his actions with philosophy.
20091026 02:10:25< Zarel> Like "How can you say that killing babies is evil? Where is a moral authority that dictates what is evil and what is not?"
20091026 02:10:30< Zarel> So the protagonists just ignore him.
20091026 02:11:43< Zarel> So then the protagonists eventually defeat him.
20091026 02:12:02< Zarel> And then, from his notes, they discover that the antagonist was actually doing things for legitimate reasons.
20091026 02:12:12< Zarel> ...it sounded better in my head.
20091026 02:13:41< Zarel> I also have a totally different idea:
20091026 02:13:44< Zarel> Let's balance AoH!
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20091026 02:39:25< shadowmaster> angasule: you are stuck there? how come? :P
20091026 02:42:57< angasule> shadowmaster: well, it's a combination of a hard scenario and me sucking terribly :)
20091026 02:43:12< shadowmaster> did you run out of gold?
20091026 02:43:29< angasule> well, I started with 100
20091026 02:44:49< shadowmaster> that means you ran out of gold :(
20091026 02:44:51< angasule> I think 100 is a bit low for that scenario, considering there are almost as many enemy leaders as units under my command
20091026 02:45:01< angasule> yeap, in the first turn, before filling the castle
20091026 02:45:11< shadowmaster> I mean, you ran out of gold in the previous scenario.
20091026 02:45:29< shadowmaster> 100 is the minimum starting gold for all scenarios due to an oversight on my part.
20091026 02:46:04< shadowmaster> I do wonder however why some people get there with no gold, and other people get there with thousands, hm..
20091026 02:46:23< angasule> gimme a sec, I think there was a peculiarity in the previous scenario
20091026 02:48:15< angasule> ah, no, nothing special
20091026 02:48:58< angasule> anyway, I guess I'll have to redo the previous scenario and arrive with a lot of money, then?
20091026 02:49:21< shadowmaster> well, you can use :debug and :gold <insert amount here> , but then you may never want to stop cheating... :P
20091026 02:51:19< angasule> well, if you tell me what would be a proper amount for the scenario, which will be the minimum starting gold in the future, I'll refrain myself from further cheating, scoundrel's honour!
20091026 02:52:29< shadowmaster> I remember having beaten that scenario with 200 gold pieces sometime ago, but I'm setting the minimum amount to 350 on Easy for the next release.
20091026 02:52:38< shadowmaster> (320 on Medium, 300 on Hard)
20091026 02:52:56< angasule> ok, 320 it is, so how do I do this :gold thing?
20091026 02:53:14< shadowmaster> see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CommandMode
20091026 02:53:27< shadowmaster> you'll need to use :debug  first and then  :gold 320
20091026 02:53:42< shadowmaster> (or 220 since you actually start with 100 gp anyway)
20091026 02:54:47< angasule> thank you :)
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20091026 03:02:16< Aethaeryn> Zarel: I understand your point about the morality.
20091026 03:02:30< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Which point?
20091026 03:02:41< Aethaeryn> Who is better: the villain who thinks he is doing what is right, or the hero who mindlessly kills the villain?
20091026 03:02:47< Aethaeryn> Is the unexamined victory worth having?
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20091026 03:04:55< Aethaeryn> Is it better to kill by reason or by faith?
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20091026 03:09:13< comradekingu> You could turn the scenario in favour of "the villain" if you didnt reference them by villain and hero
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20091026 03:09:38< shadowmaster> the villain is side 2 and the hero is side 1, better?
20091026 03:10:18< comradekingu> In terms of what exactly?
20091026 03:11:24< shadowmaster> don't all^Wmost wesnoth scenarios work like that? :>
20091026 03:11:39< comradekingu> The scenario doesnt do justice to the question
20091026 03:12:13< shadowmaster> side 1 is some guy (controlled by the player) who kills anything that moves and isn't "allied" to them.
20091026 03:12:23< shadowmaster> accept it, Wesnoth is no better than ye generic FPS :p
20091026 03:12:46< Aethaeryn> comradekingu: Interestingly enough, I'm facing a similar dilemma in my storyboard for my campaign trilogy. (Please don't kill me, shadowmaster, I have a point to this.)
20091026 03:13:03< shadowmaster> I don't kill people. I kill wesnoth units.
20091026 03:13:17< Aethaeryn> The orcs are pretty oppressed, almost to the point of sympathetic, but if they're sympathetic, then the player won't want to fight them in a large number of the scenarios.
20091026 03:13:22< comradekingu> Put up a wiki of sorts with thoughts, dialogue and the story thus far
20091026 03:13:27 * shadowmaster renames a loyalist puppet to "Aethaeryn" and strikes him down with an Elvish Marksman.
20091026 03:13:38< Aethaeryn> I'm sure people have gotten the name in games before.
20091026 03:15:22< comradekingu> The orcs have less jovial traits aswell, in the campaign i played they were furious agressors set to take over my homeland
20091026 03:16:03< Aethaeryn> Yes, they are warriors by nature.
20091026 03:16:11< comradekingu> There is supposed to be some consistency between campaigns?
20091026 03:16:53< Aethaeryn> My issue is more as to what happens *to* the orcs after they are defeated.
20091026 03:17:21< comradekingu> The humans rejoice?
20091026 03:17:32< shadowmaster> tehre is supposed to be some consistency ? of course.
20091026 03:17:33< Aethaeryn> More than that.
20091026 03:17:58< comradekingu> I dont know, are they orcs from northern mythology, maybe you can look there?
20091026 03:19:50< Aethaeryn> Well, does the orcs being violent by nature justify being inhumane toward them?
20091026 03:20:12< Aethaeryn> In other words, they're sentient beings, so should they be treated just like vanquished elves or humans or dwarves?
20091026 03:26:42< comradekingu> I visited orc-walley (directly translated) today. I figure there is some connection to orcs in northern mythology, applied to the orcs in the game, maybe that holds the answer.
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20091026 03:29:20< comradekingu> Old English þyrs, given as a gloss for Latin orcus, is cognate to Old Norse þurs "giant, ogre" (both from Common Germanic *thurisaz, in Norse mythology referring to one of the monstrous descendants of the giant Ymir). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc
20091026 03:30:11< comradekingu> The giants are different, bearing similarity to troll rocklobber in the game.
20091026 03:30:23< Aethaeryn> And the trolls are different. :P
20091026 03:31:24< Aethaeryn> My issue isn't about how orcs would act, but rather how the player would act.
20091026 03:31:39< Aethaeryn> After all, if you're told to kill the enemy leader, but the enemy leader is a kitten, would you continue playing the campaign?
20091026 03:32:16< Aethaeryn> On a slightly lesser scale, if the orcs are sympathetic to some extent, can you kill them in ignorance?
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20091026 03:47:04< comradekingu> Im again being thrown off by the word orc
20091026 03:47:43< comradekingu> My attempt at reading up on the subject proved difficult, will try again later.
20091026 03:47:46< comradekingu> Going to bed now
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20091026 08:45:19 * Vornicus finds himself complaining about the complexity of interactions in Wesnoth, decides he should try his hand at making a unit set.
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20091026 09:10:35< Vornicus> Oh, I am reminded - is there any setting where it is always day?
20091026 09:10:52< zookeeper> no
20091026 09:11:50< Vornicus> ...probably would need a whole new art set, something heavenish.
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20091026 10:27:44< Ivanovic> moin
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20091026 21:49:17< Bellerophon_true> any clues on who banned kard_ again? :P
20091026 21:51:31 * Soliton 
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20091026 22:41:54< Vornicus> cardigan?
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20091026 22:47:20-!- G-Lo [n=Propagan@unaffiliated/g-lo] has quit ["I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration."]
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20091026 22:52:58< Bellerophon_true> Two needy players with poor hardware in search for an Orocia host xD more detail for potential hosts in the lobby :P
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 27 00:00:51 2009