--- Log opened Tue Nov 03 00:00:56 2009
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20091103 00:06:09< esr> fendrin: 90%
20091103 00:08:29< esr> fendrin: OK, there do not seem to be any actual instances of [delay] immediately under [if]. Which means I need to figure out why the Emacs Lisp code thinks they exist.
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20091103 00:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 68 bugs, 244 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091103 00:36:17< ArneBab> Ivanovic: Should I restate the question in here? 
20091103 00:36:42< Ivanovic> jupp
20091103 00:37:09< ArneBab> OK. I'm writing a free roleplaying rulebook under GPLv3 and I'd like to use images from Wesnoth. 
20091103 00:37:51< ArneBab> Until today I had assumed that all artwork from wesnoth is GPlv2 or later, but when I dived a bit deeper into the files I couldn't get certainty. 
20091103 00:39:17< ArneBab> A bit of digging in the codefiles showed that with the exception of src/server/jwsmtp/* all codefiles state "GPLv2 or later"
20091103 00:40:34< Ivanovic> esr: so what do you think is the status of the license stuff?
20091103 00:40:52< Ivanovic> cf the post i linked you two some time earlier today
20091103 00:41:32< esr> Oh, right.  I need to go respond to those.  In a word: messy.
20091103 00:41:40< Ivanovic> crab_, fendrin, everyone else who might have an idea (since the report is not too verbose): http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27666&start=0
20091103 00:41:58< esr> Some days I think we ough to just shoot the GPL through the head...
20091103 00:42:32< Ivanovic> it is a mess that they had to release a v3, if they had not, we would all be happy with how things are...
20091103 00:42:34< Ivanovic> ;)
20091103 00:42:42< ArneBab> Besides: While writing the forum post I realized that our own licensing wasn't as clear as it should have been, so I cleared it up to make sure that wesnoth contributors can use our stuff, too. 
20091103 00:43:03< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: then maybe you mean we should have used strict GPL v2 since the beginning
20091103 00:43:10< ArneBab> So now all our unreleased files are available as GPlv2 or later, too, and only the releases are GPLv3 or later. 
20091103 00:43:12< ArneBab> http://bitbucket.org/ArneBab/1w6/src/tip/Copying.txt
20091103 00:43:19< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: e.g. Linux does that.
20091103 00:43:21< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: from the beginning it was *not* clear what was really used
20091103 00:43:23< shadowmaster> the kernel of course.
20091103 00:43:37< shadowmaster> um, yeah. I blame sirp
20091103 00:43:42< esr> No, v2 complience was alreadyt too complicated because of the definoitional problem of what constitutes a derivative work. Don't blainm that on v3, which didn't make it any worse.
20091103 00:43:46< Ivanovic> yes, linux does it but we just said "hey, it is gpl" linking to the latest version (at least on the website and the copy was the latest one available at that time)
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20091103 00:44:08< ArneBab> shadowmaster: Mercurial did that, too, but they now went through the royal pain of asking permission from _every contributor_ to switch to GPLv2 or later. 
20091103 00:44:09< shadowmaster> speak of the devil :P
20091103 00:44:28< Sirp> please oh please say I'm not the devil.
20091103 00:44:34< shadowmaster> ArneBab: I suppose they didn't have as many contributors as wesnoth or linux do though
20091103 00:44:35< Ivanovic> ArneBab: impossible for wesnoth since several contributors left and we don't have a way to contact them
20091103 00:45:00< Ivanovic> just have a look at the credits, we would have to ask *everyone* (yes, all translators, too) involved
20091103 00:45:05< esr> See http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1350 for my discussion of the general issue.
20091103 00:45:42< esr> Ivanovic is wrong.  He's repeating a widely-held superstition.
20091103 00:46:49< ArneBab> Ivanovic: Not if the license is "or later"
20091103 00:47:51< shadowmaster> that superstition may come from most devs being non-lawyers
20091103 00:48:08< esr> shadowmaster: Yes, it does, I agree.
20091103 00:49:42< ArneBab> shadowmaster: IIRC Mercurial has about a hundred contributors, so the pain was quite royal - and it isn't finished yet, because 6 people can't be found... 
20091103 00:49:45< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39581 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): updated Russian translation
20091103 00:50:32< ArneBab> The GPLv3 has a way to deal with that problem, though: Devs can specify a "proxy" who can decide for them, if a new version keeps the spirit.
20091103 00:51:30< esr> ArneBab: A linear hack at an exponential problem, alas.
20091103 00:51:36< ArneBab> shadowmaster: now I have data - Mercurial has 333 committers. 
20091103 00:52:50< ArneBab> esr: I think it's quite useful, since it allows people to cluster. I assume it will come down to having cautions developers choose an organization they trust while most will keep on using the plain "or later" clause. 
20091103 00:53:05< ArneBab> cautions->cautious
20091103 00:54:05< ArneBab> esr: Is the artwork available under "GPLv2 only", under "GPLv2 or later" or under "GPL"? 
20091103 00:54:18< esr> Nobody has any fucking idea.
20091103 00:54:39< shadowmaster> the source code is supposed to be GPLv2 or later atm at least
20091103 00:55:19< ArneBab> At least there's something I can do to clear it up: The server asks for "GPL", so you have the right to use the contributed stuff in all three ways, with plain "GPL" the default. 
20091103 00:56:00< esr> And I cannot wave a magic wand to dispel the confusion...
20091103 00:56:05< ArneBab> shadowmaster: All except server/jfsmtp/* has that in the header files (I went into some script-fu to check all files - recorded in the forum :) )
20091103 00:56:43< shadowmaster> I won't even try to think about whether the add-ons server expects GPLv1+, GPLv2, GPLv2+ or any version of the GPL. It'll hurt my head.
20091103 00:57:02< ArneBab> esr: Which also dispels some confusion: Everything which includes server/jmsmtp/* must be GPLv2 only. 
20091103 00:57:18< Zarel> I dunno, I see "GPLv2+" everywhere...
20091103 00:57:21< ArneBab> shadowmaster: It just says "GPL" (I checked it), so it allows any version of the GPL. 
20091103 00:57:39< shadowmaster> yes, and that's a bit of a headache for me.
20091103 00:57:40< esr> Best thing to do would be to issue a decree that all GPL license attachments will be interpreted henceforth as v2 or later, and anyone who doesn't like that is free not to particuipate.
20091103 00:58:01< shadowmaster> fortunately nobody should even know the GPL v1 existed.
20091103 00:58:04< ArneBab> zarel: data: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=392013#p392013
20091103 00:58:10< Ivanovic> sounds to me like we should update the message for uploading and force a server restart with cleaning out data
20091103 00:58:23< ArneBab> you don't need to (sounds like a lot of paiN!)
20091103 00:58:31< Ivanovic> stuff like "released under 'GPL v2+'"
20091103 00:58:42< ArneBab> the server asks for "GPL", and in the GPL is clearly specified that "GPL" means "any version of the GPL"
20091103 00:59:13< ArneBab> (if you like, I can quickly get out the refs)
20091103 00:59:42< ArneBab> so *you* are on the safe side by saying "all contributions must be GPL"
20091103 01:00:10< ArneBab> then you can use them under GPLv2 only, GPLv2 or later, GPLv3 or later, and so on. 
20091103 01:00:26< Aethaeryn> If they must be GPL, doesn't that mean they're GPLv1 or later?
20091103 01:00:35< Aethaeryn> As in they could be used as *any* GPL whatever?
20091103 01:00:39< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: as stated above.
20091103 01:01:05< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091103 01:02:16< ArneBab> shadowmaster: I just found the GPLv1 ;) 
20091103 01:02:25< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39582 /trunk/ (52 files in 2 dirs): 
20091103 01:02:25< CIA-61> make sure that the latest additions to pofix work as intended (had to extend them a little because the resulting terms were too common)
20091103 01:02:25< CIA-61> apply pofix on wesnoth-units*/*.po*
20091103 01:02:25< ArneBab> But it's irrelevant today. 
20091103 01:02:53< Ivanovic> ArneBab: it is very relevant in case we want to mainline content from the addon server that the author already abandoned
20091103 01:03:12< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: we can assume the version of the GPL the content ships with
20091103 01:03:13< ArneBab> I mean, GPLv1 is irrelevant :)
20091103 01:03:25< shadowmaster> which is GPLv2 since campaignd automatically injects it if the COPYING file is missing
20091103 01:03:32< Ivanovic> ah, right
20091103 01:04:42< ArneBab> shadowmaster: And the GPL clearly states: "If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation."
20091103 01:04:54< ArneBab> (section 9, last sentence)
20091103 01:06:04< ArneBab> I dived deep into GPLv2 and GPLv3 to see if I can use them for the roleplaying system, so they don't scare me (anymore ;) )
20091103 01:06:29< ArneBab> And GPLv3 is general enough to be used for texts which aren't code. 
20091103 01:06:36< ArneBab> gerneal->generic
20091103 01:10:25< ArneBab> shadowmaster: the GPLv2 clearly states that
20091103 01:10:33< ArneBab> And if something is "...or later" anyone who changes anything can decide to move to a later version. 
20091103 01:10:37< ArneBab> You don't need permission from the original copyright holder for that. 
20091103 01:12:05< ArneBab> Means: You are free to use any content which was uploaded to the server under any version of the GPL and also relicense to a later version later on. 
20091103 01:12:44< ArneBab> (as long as the server also said "must be licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License (GPL)" back then)
20091103 01:13:11< ArneBab> ...sorry for flooding... 
20091103 01:13:22< loonycyborg> ArneBab: You're writing a roleplaying system? Does it have a webpage where one can learn more about it?
20091103 01:13:30< ArneBab> jepp
20091103 01:13:34< ArneBab> http://1w6.org
20091103 01:13:40< ArneBab> it's in german, though. 
20091103 01:14:18< loonycyborg> I probably won't be able to learn much if it's in german..
20091103 01:14:19< ArneBab> and I might have to pull the latest version, if the artwork should prove to be GPLv2 only :(
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20091103 01:14:55< ArneBab> there will be a version in english, but that will still take its time (we#re close to the 2.4 release which I want to use as base for translations)
20091103 01:16:00< ArneBab> esr: Did I manage to clear it up a bit, or did I only muddle it up further? 
20091103 01:16:07< ArneBab> and can I do anything to help clear it up more? 
20091103 01:17:20< AI0867> maybe I should release something under GPLv2 or earlier, just to see what kind of confusion that'll cause
20091103 01:17:34< ArneBab> *gg*
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20091103 01:20:30< loonycyborg> Imagine asking an artist what license he used when contributing to wesnoth :P
20091103 01:21:02< loonycyborg> GPLv2+ or strict GPL v2
20091103 01:21:25< loonycyborg> Probably they meant whatever license wesnoth itself uses..
20091103 01:21:38< ArneBab> The anwer I got from Jetrel was "As long as you share-alike, it's cool. Have fun with the role-playing."
20091103 01:21:43< esr> That way lies madness  (asking artists, I mean).
20091103 01:21:53 * shadowmaster away
20091103 01:22:36< ArneBab> -> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=392049#p392049
20091103 01:23:21< Ivanovic> i'd guess that Sirps original intention was "gplv2 or later" and he asked "hey artists, are you fine with gpl, it looks like this" and the general answer was "yeah, i am fine with this" or "no, i am not" (which would result in stuff not being included)
20091103 01:23:35< Ivanovic> so i'd assume that artwork is gpl v2+
20091103 01:24:48< ArneBab> That would be what I'm hoping for. 
20091103 01:27:18< ArneBab> If that turns out to be somewhat certain, can you put it into the forum, so I can link to it? 
20091103 01:28:53< CIA-61> esr * r39583 /trunk/po/ (3 files in 3 dirs): More British translation updates.
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20091103 01:50:21< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39584 /trunk/po/wesnoth-units/en_GB.po: hand apply fixes from the last pofix run to the en_GG translation
20091103 01:51:57< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39585 /trunk/po/ (23 files in 23 dirs): make sure that the en_GB translation is merged against the lastest pot files
20091103 01:55:52< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39586 /trunk/po/ (123 files in 23 dirs): just another pot-update run to make sure that files really are in sync after the spelling fixes in units (no new/changed strings, just updated references)
20091103 02:05:19 * ArneBab needs to get some sleep
20091103 02:05:36< ArneBab> thank you for creating Wesnoth! 
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20091103 02:14:52< shadowmaster> noy: looking for me?
20091103 02:15:20< noy> yeah the forum keeps logging my out at random times
20091103 02:15:41< noy> I used to be able to stay logged in as long as I want
20091103 02:16:13< shadowmaster> everybody's been complaining about that lately, but I am never logged out unless my connection is crashing
20091103 02:16:26< shadowmaster> okay, not everybody, just a group of people.
20091103 02:17:18< shadowmaster> so, no I haven't changed any of the login settings 
20091103 02:18:13< noy> hmm
20091103 02:26:35< CIA-61> espreon * r39587 /branches/resources/cartography-tools/map-howto.txt: Updated map-howto.txt.
20091103 02:27:22< noy> shadowmaster: thanks anyway... another forum I peruse has similar issues so I tend to ignore it in general
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20091103 06:21:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 66 bugs, 245 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091103 11:21:26< Ivanovic> moin
20091103 11:57:11< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39588 /trunk/ (6 files in 6 dirs): updated Russian translation
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20091103 13:36:11< esr> Ivanovic: One of my replies - http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27583&p=392127#p392127
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20091103 13:39:03< Ivanovic> ilor: so what is the result of your mp lobby tests yesterday?
20091103 13:39:14< ilor> well, needs work
20091103 13:39:32< ilor> the layout needs to be made mor rigid, stuff still looks like it's placed randomly
20091103 13:40:10< ilor> friends/ignores filters are broken, earlier I somehow managed to test only the case that works and not the 3 broken cases
20091103 13:40:50< ilor> and there still seem to be some resizing issues as you've noticed
20091103 13:42:15< Ivanovic> mordante is needed for the resize issues, right?
20091103 13:42:27< Ivanovic> the layout and filters are probably yours though, right?
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20091103 14:16:23< esr> Ivanovic: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25621&p=392134#p392134
20091103 14:16:50< esr> That reply contains a policy recommendation.  I'm willing to drafty the notice.
20091103 14:18:03< esr> There'a separate issue that GPL is a crappy license for stuffy that isn't code, because it's difficulyt to know how to apply the terms.
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20091103 15:17:54< ilor> Ivanovic: I'll need mordante for the layout as well, I don't really know how to coerce gui2 to do what I need it to do
20091103 15:18:08< Ivanovic> :(
20091103 15:18:34 * Rhonda just read "I'll need more dante" and wanted to add that I also need more molgrum 
20091103 15:18:39< Rhonda> bleah, more mordante
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20091103 15:56:14< esr> Ivanovic: *poke* So what do you want to do about the license-version issue?  You and/or Sirp are the people to make the executive decision.  You have my advice, which is as expert as you're going to get unless you hire an IP lawyer.
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20091103 16:17:44< Ivanovic> esr: 1) we should have this stuff on the ml to make sure that basically every dev reads it
20091103 16:19:18< Ivanovic> 2) assuming that Sirp meant wesnoth to be gpl v2 or later (basically the "gpl term that is usually used") we should stay with thie regarding all content where not explcitly some "this is gpl v2 - and thats it" was stated
20091103 16:19:49< Ivanovic> 3) we should make clear that this is what we talk about when we say "we license things under the gpl"
20091103 16:21:19< Ivanovic> (eg in the addon server upload message it should be clear that a) only GPL'ed content is allowed and b) that unless the content states otherwise we will see it as GPLv2+ and add a COPYING file that states this (yeah, we already *do* automatically add a COPYING file, this is just about making more clear which GPL version we normally expect on the addon server)
20091103 16:21:57< Ivanovic> 4) we should check what arnebab wrote here regarding server/jwsmtp/* http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=392013#p392013
20091103 16:22:47< Ivanovic> 5) once it was all on the ml we should post this guideline somewhere in "plain view"
20091103 16:25:41< Ivanovic> and yeah, (5) should be formulated in a way to state clearly that if unexpected circumstances force us to do so, we are allowed to relicense things to a license that is open source conform and as close as possible to the gpl regarding rights and duties (eg no easy conversion to BSD possible, since the source does not have to stay open)
20091103 16:25:42< Soliton> jwsmtp is copied from somewhere else. nothing we made.
20091103 16:26:32< Ivanovic> Soliton: i know, the question is: should we keep it this way, then the tarball will clearly be "GPL v2", or can this part somehow easily be replaces by something gpl v2+?
20091103 16:27:03< Soliton> i think it's not really used. need to ask Baufo.
20091103 16:28:06< Soliton> afaik it's for the mailing part of the registration support of wesnothd but since that is disabled...
20091103 16:28:10< Ivanovic> seems to somehow be connected to the forum registration stuff
20091103 16:28:24< Ivanovic> then i vote for: get rid of it since it is unused anyway!
20091103 16:28:34< Soliton> yep.
20091103 16:28:46< Ivanovic> esr: have i missed anything in my listing and does it make sense?
20091103 16:28:54< esr> Rereading...
20091103 16:29:29< esr> Yes, that looks good.  
20091103 16:29:36< esr> I'll write the ml post.
20091103 16:29:44< Ivanovic> okay, thanks
20091103 16:30:50< Ivanovic> and yes, i think the "we are allowed to relicense things" part should make clear that this can only happen in extreme situations like eg the GPL magically being void and wesnoth not being able to continue in any free way unless things are relicensed
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20091103 16:55:41< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39589 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): updated Dutch translation
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20091103 17:19:57< fendrin> Ivanovic: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27666&start=0 Can't reproduce that bug with current trunk. I don't have the point release 1.7.7 around now.
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20091103 17:34:27< Ivanovic> fendrin: can't reproduce here with 1.7.7 on gentoo either
20091103 17:36:02< fendrin> Ivanovic: I will post a reply on the forum that asks how exactly to reprocude that bug.
20091103 17:36:44< Ivanovic> okay
20091103 17:36:48< Ivanovic> i am off for some hours
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20091103 18:21:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 65 bugs, 246 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091103 18:48:31< loonycyborg> fendrin: Ivanovic: I can't repro it on winxp in virtualbox with 1.7.7 either.
20091103 18:51:32< fendrin> loonycyborg: Maybe it depends on who kills the minister. It's hard to loose him from the savepoint. Requires very risky and stupid gameing.
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20091103 18:51:59< loonycyborg> I've just attacked the enemy leader.
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20091103 18:52:28< loonycyborg> I had to resort to saveloading to actually get him killed :P
20091103 18:53:05< fendrin> :-)
20091103 19:02:31< ilor> mmkay, regarding the addon server project (sorry need to hand in some docs tomorrow, will work on bugs after I finish with this :) )
20091103 19:03:13< ilor> apparently I'm supposed to put some names of 'stakeholders representatives', so who wants to be a representative add-on creator? :P
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20091103 19:42:06< mordante> servus
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20091103 19:44:51< mordante> Rhonda, more of me would be great, let me know when you're able to clone me ;-)
20091103 19:47:02< ilor> hi mordante
20091103 19:47:36< mordante> esr, I'm quite sure the  GPL 2 files are added by Baufo for the rest of the code we already discussed it here https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2007-07/msg00001.html
20091103 19:47:38< mordante> hi ilor 
20091103 19:47:59< mordante> ilor, you had some issues left?
20091103 19:48:33< esr> mordante: Um, why tell me?
20091103 19:48:59< ilor> mordante: yeah, mainly it's about making the widgets have constant size (ie they should autoexpand to fill available space)
20091103 19:50:24< mordante> esr, since you wanted to post something to the dev-ml
20091103 19:50:38< mordante> ilor, which widgets
20091103 19:50:55< mordante> ilor, also did you have a change to test the buttons on the panels?
20091103 19:51:15< esr> mordante: We'll need to change those files to v2+.  But someone closer to the code can do that.
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20091103 19:51:54< mordante> esr, uhm we can't do that I'm quite sure Baufo didn't write these files
20091103 19:52:18< esr> Then why did he attach a GPL to them?
20091103 19:52:41< mordante> Ivanovic, sirp intended GPL 2+ https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2007-07/msg00014.html
20091103 19:52:50< mordante> esr, no idea best ask him
20091103 19:53:06< esr> It was a mistake and we fix it.
20091103 19:53:24< ilor> mordante: well, the chat log takes only as much space as it needs, as a result the chat input box is not at the bottom
20091103 19:53:40< mordante> esr, yes but we can't just relicense something we didn't write
20091103 19:54:06< ilor> overall everything looks like it's stuffed in the middle and not laid out according to available space, if you know what I mean
20091103 19:54:34< esr> If we *attached* the license, we can *rweattach* it.  One ios just as right, or wrong, as the other.  Or we can simply throw those files away; would you prefer that?
20091103 19:55:12< esr> mordante: And read this: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1350
20091103 19:55:35< mordante> esr, IMO we should first ask Baufo where the files came from and look for their original license
20091103 19:55:35< esr> You are very close to being entirely wrong ;-)
20091103 19:56:49< mordante> esr, I read it, but not sure whether it hold true in all countries 
20091103 19:56:53< esr> If you think Baufo attached a license to them and didn't have the right to do so, *delete them*.  *NOW*.
20091103 19:57:12< esr> Otherwise, relicensing them is not a big deal.
20091103 19:57:24< mordante> esr, other then that I think it's not ethical to relicense software
20091103 19:57:36 * esr gets tired of the superstitions on this subject
20091103 19:57:54< mordante> I wouldn't be happy if somebody decides to relicense software I wrote to some other license
20091103 19:58:14< esr> It's not ethical to do harm.  A elicensing that does no harm cannot be unethical.
20091103 19:58:33< esr> Hackers are weird about this, and I get tired of it.
20091103 19:58:48< mordante> esr, I don't know whether he did or didn't have the right to license them that's why I want to ask him
20091103 19:59:08< esr> Neither law nor eythics requires us to be as obsesive as we are.
20091103 19:59:20< loonycyborg> esr: They just think that legal system will crash if you provide GPLv2 where GPLv2+ is expected :P
20091103 19:59:56< esr> Grrrr.  The legal system *laughs* at these distinctions.  Laughs *hard*!
20091103 20:01:31< esr> The hacker attitude about licenses is a kind of voodoo, disconnected from reality.
20091103 20:01:48< mordante> with your reasoning I can just relicense the Linux kernel to PD since it doesn't hurt anybody... then some company can distribute a closed source kernel based on my PD version...
20091103 20:02:32< mordante> ilor, I'll try to have a look later, off to dinner now
20091103 20:02:54< esr> mordante: No.  Reread what I wrote ion the topic.
20091103 20:05:41< Rhonda> mordante: People already claimed that I am a clone of Joey (from Debian), but I'm not sure wether it would work on you
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20091103 20:20:57< AI0867> ilor: you wanted an add-on server user?
20091103 20:21:22< ilor> AI0867: turns out I can leave the place blank after all
20091103 20:22:04< ilor> this course seriously requires spelling out everything around four times, twice with "business" prepended to half the words
20091103 20:24:58< zookeeper> fendrin, loonycyborg, about the hylas crash: i'd check if it happens if a WC kills him
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20091103 20:27:21< fendrin> zookeeper: How did you get a walking corps?
20091103 20:30:18< fendrin> zookeeper: It doesn't happen with a debug spawned walking corpse. Can't see how the enemy should have got one in that scenario.
20091103 20:35:51< mordante> Rhonda, we can try ;-)
20091103 20:36:14< Ivanovic> mordante, esr: as Soliton and I already said today, we can probably remove that part introduced by baufo since it is unused anyway
20091103 20:36:27< esr> OK.
20091103 20:36:41< mordante> Ivanovic, is everything unused? 
20091103 20:37:54< esr> I'd write that ML post now but I've been busy ndling Gna!'s support request backlog.  This morning thary had 138 requests backed up.  Now they have 69.  If this sounds familiar... :-)
20091103 20:37:59< Ivanovic> i *think* so, though not 100% sure
20091103 20:38:00< Soliton> i guess it is usable but it is definitely not in use anywhere.
20091103 20:38:09< Ivanovic> this stuff is meant for reminder mails and the likes
20091103 20:38:23< Ivanovic> but we currently do not send any mails / don't have support for this active
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20091103 20:41:30< Soliton> also a relicensing to GPLv2+ of those files is very obviously against the intentions of the author.
20091103 20:41:46< mordante> I'm in favour to remove the files... Soliton just told why
20091103 20:41:56< esr> Likewise.
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20091103 20:43:22< mordante> who will do it, I can do it if wanted
20091103 20:43:54< Soliton> well, we could still wait for Baufo's take on it? or is it urgent?
20091103 20:44:15< Soliton> not that i expect objections.
20091103 20:45:50< mordante> I also don't think it's urgent
20091103 20:46:12< mordante> ilor, I see what you mean
20091103 20:46:15< Soliton> i can write him a mail.
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20091103 20:46:46< mordante> ok
20091103 20:53:29< zookeeper> fendrin, i've never tried to reproduce that.
20091103 20:54:01< zookeeper> but the enemy still gets recruitment of WCs latee
20091103 20:56:57< zookeeper> later, even.
20091103 20:57:18< Ivanovic> Soliton: please do so
20091103 20:58:06< shadowmaster> um, *checks backlog*
20091103 21:08:03< shadowmaster> funny how some people praise Wesnoth as it were some kind of divine creation while other people bash it as if it was some demonic invention to enslave people under the control of the MP moderators.
20091103 21:08:28< shadowmaster> and lazy developers.
20091103 21:09:38< mordante> ilor, any reason why the chatlog is a scrollbar_panel with a label instead of a scroll_label?
20091103 21:09:44 * Soliton whips shadowmaster. get back to work!
20091103 21:10:03< ilor> mordante: no reason
20091103 21:12:29< mordante> ilor, did you have a change to test the buttons on the panels?
20091103 21:13:41< ilor> mordante: sorry, no time atm :/
20091103 21:14:48< mordante> ok, already expected that ;-)
20091103 21:22:19< Soliton> mordante, Ivanovic: sent.
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20091103 21:27:00< mordante> thanks Soliton 
20091103 21:27:19< shadowmaster> BroodKiller: you were looking for me some days ago?
20091103 21:28:24< BroodKiller> shadowmaster: hey, and yes
20091103 21:28:36< BroodKiller> wanted to speak with you about team coloring
20091103 21:28:59< CIA-61> mordante * r39590 /trunk/data/gui/default/widget/window_default.cfg: 
20091103 21:28:59< CIA-61> Properly size the contents of the window.
20091103 21:28:59< CIA-61> This is a regression due to the scrollbars, noticed by ilor.
20091103 21:29:33< BroodKiller> how is the 'shading' calculated? Is it dependent on the shade of the team color background pixel?
20091103 21:29:46< shadowmaster> BroodKiller: the color_range.cpp code in wesnoth-tc is mostly the same as in mainline wesnoth, minus some stuff. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how it works; it's some kind of blackbox to me.
20091103 21:30:07< BroodKiller> uh-oh, squat :-/
20091103 21:30:16< shadowmaster> the original developer of that code is not around nowadays either :(
20091103 21:30:35< BroodKiller> I thought you were familiar with the code yourself
20091103 21:30:43< BroodKiller> that you wrote it or something
20091103 21:30:47< shadowmaster> nope, I'm jusst familiar with the interface.
20091103 21:31:10< shadowmaster> I copied most of the code directly thanks to the awesomeness of the GNU GPL.
20091103 21:31:13< BroodKiller> what is the interface then? I tried looking into the code, but didn't have time to make some extensive lookups
20091103 21:31:16< shadowmaster> version 2 or later.
20091103 21:31:23< mordante> ilor, doesn't fix everything but is a nice improvement
20091103 21:31:50< mordante> Ivanovic, the resizing in "interesting" making the screen smaller works enlarging only until the original size is reached and looks like only drawing fails not calculating...
20091103 21:32:00< BroodKiller> basically, what I am looking into is how I can reuse the code in my animation editor
20091103 21:32:55< BroodKiller> so when I saw that you've done that in that program, I felt blessed by the heavens
20091103 21:33:10< BroodKiller> because it saved me digging into the entire wesnoth source
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20091103 21:35:00< shadowmaster> BroodKiller: color_range.hpp declares a class named color_range which accepts some parameters; that defines an object that may be used with some methods (also defined in the same header) that allow you to use the color_range object to convert one source palette (as a list of 32-bit unsigned integers) to a "recolored" palette
20091103 21:35:44< shadowmaster> the meaning of the parameters on the first color_range constructor happens to be explained in mainline /data/core/team-colors.cfg , of all places.
20091103 21:36:49< shadowmaster> I'll add some documentation to the mainline code in some minutes
20091103 21:36:58< BroodKiller> if that's the 9 team color definitions and the magenta key, then I got that from some forum post
20091103 21:37:23< shadowmaster> every team color definition is made from 4 parameters.
20091103 21:38:12< shadowmaster> the magenta key is just a list of unsigned 32-bit integers which are more commonly used as the "source" palette  for the recolor_range() method, but there are others (e.g. the flag palette)
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20091103 21:40:46< BroodKiller> so the first, second and third params in the contructor correspond to the respective params in the team color definition?
20091103 21:42:53< BroodKiller> so the returned palette is reused over the image data to form a recolored gfx?
20091103 21:44:11< shadowmaster> the four params in the first constructor match the params in the WML in the same order
20091103 21:44:36< BroodKiller> ok, cool, great, fantastic
20091103 21:44:51< shadowmaster> repand yes, they are color.
20091103 21:44:57< shadowmaster> *they are reference colors.
20091103 21:46:01< shadowmaster> recolor_range() returns a map with the new (recolored) palette as the map element's values (the keys are the old, source palette colors). Some other method must apply that over an image somehow, to convert matching pixels.
20091103 21:47:06< shadowmaster> for SDL surfaces, wesnoth uses recolor_image(), declared on sdl_utils.hpp line 210
20091103 21:47:54< shadowmaster> wesnoth-tc doesn't use SDL surfaces but png files directly by means of an ugly hack I wrote as quickly as possible to continue wroking on my sprites, so you shouldn't look at that code unless you want a bit of a headache
20091103 21:48:02< shadowmaster> (understatement)
20091103 21:48:24< BroodKiller> heh, you mean the jumps? ;)
20091103 21:48:49< shadowmaster> that's the least brain-damaging technique used there.
20091103 21:49:27< BroodKiller> hmm, if I have the old-new color map, I can recolor the image struct in wxW, I only need the old and new RGB values
20091103 21:49:46< BroodKiller> the Uint32 array returned by the class is RGB data, right?
20091103 21:50:03< shadowmaster> that's the other part that gives me a headache :/
20091103 21:50:30< shadowmaster> it's ARGB with the alpha component set to zero.
20091103 21:50:44< BroodKiller> ARGB? in this byte order?
20091103 21:51:46< BroodKiller> I guess better this than a custom 3-char class or something even worse
20091103 21:52:17< shadowmaster> since I never took a formal programming course, I'm a bit incompetent when it comes to byte ordering and bit shifting.
20091103 21:53:15< shadowmaster> all I know is that a zeroed alpha component white should be 0x00FFFFFF under this scheme.
20091103 21:53:36< BroodKiller> I see...
20091103 21:53:43< shadowmaster> (and this incompetence is the main reason wesnoth-tc's interaction with libpng sucks)
20091103 21:54:04< BroodKiller> to be honest, I haven't taken such a course either
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20091103 21:54:27 * crimson_penguin hasn't gotten any formal teaching of any kind
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20091103 21:55:48< BroodKiller> but I can see some reason in this kind of data structuring, since it saves you some extra bitshifting on the output: 0x00FFFFFF = 0xFFFFFF, so you can use the stored value directly
20091103 21:56:23< BroodKiller> not that it is very intuitive, but it's handy
20091103 21:57:07< crimson_penguin> I think it makes just as much sense either way, as long as A isn't mixed up with RGB
20091103 21:57:44< shadowmaster> then we would be talking about how the image is actually stored in memory/disk.
20091103 21:58:12< shadowmaster> libpng doesn't use ARGB or RGBA if I recall correctly
20091103 21:58:46< shadowmaster> (well, there must be a reason I do some ugly reinterpret_cast<>()s and byte-dancing in my code)
20091103 22:00:03< shadowmaster> sdl_utils.cpp line 726 has the reclor_image() method for SDL surfaces (which are wrapped in a safer container, surface, in wesnoth)
20091103 22:00:14 * BroodKiller is glad that wxW has its own custom image-handling class
20091103 22:01:02< shadowmaster> there's also lots of obscure magic all over sdl_utils.cpp whiuch I don't want to look at :(
20091103 22:02:05< BroodKiller> at least it works, I guess
20091103 22:02:19< BroodKiller> btw, whatever happened to the idea of moving wesnoth over to python?
20091103 22:02:30< BroodKiller> I remember such discussions taking place some time ago...
20091103 22:02:48< shadowmaster> it died.
20091103 22:04:32< Soliton> is there a language that was not discussed moving wesnoth over to?
20091103 22:04:40< mordante> assembly
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20091103 22:05:31< BroodKiller> :D
20091103 22:05:33< BroodKiller> that would rock
20091103 22:05:44< shadowmaster> nobody has suggested porting Wesnoth to WML either.
20091103 22:06:07< BroodKiller> how about brainfuck?
20091103 22:06:12< Soliton> yeah, wesnoth twice as fast and no new features ever again.
20091103 22:06:14< BroodKiller> it is Turing-complete, after all...
20091103 22:08:07 * shadowmaster away.
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20091103 22:21:15< mordante> I'm off night
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20091103 22:24:30< fendrin> Crab_: In a [ai][target] what amount for "value" is useful?
20091103 22:25:45< Crab_> something on the same scale of leader_value (default = 3) and village_value (default = 1)
20091103 22:25:49< Crab_> s/of/as
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20091103 22:27:47< fendrin> Crab_: AI0867 hinted me that it is used in HttT with 100 in scenario one. LoW scenario21 uses even 200.
20091103 22:28:58< Crab_> I think that there it is used with different intent.
20091103 22:29:17< Crab_> and there was a bug with those target's in 1.7
20091103 22:29:40< Crab_> which made things 'don't work' if the value used for goals was not overwhelmingly high
20091103 22:30:12< Crab_> 100 is like 'try to throw everything against X'
20091103 22:32:36< fendrin> Crab_: So 3 or 5 is a sane value?
20091103 22:32:55< Crab_> yes
20091103 22:33:06< Crab_> observe the effect - if it's what you like, then it's sane vale.
20091103 22:33:37< Crab_> what's in target ? 1 unit or a SUF matching many units ?
20091103 22:35:08< fendrin> Crab_: LoW 21 only a single unit. LoW 5 all units that match a role=gold_carrier filter. HttT are Konrad and Delfador the target.
20091103 22:37:37< Crab_> generally, if it's a 1 unit, then higher value is needed, otherwise the 'villages on the map' and temporary (automatically created) targets will 'hide' that target.
20091103 22:40:12< CIA-61> ivanovic * r39591 /trunk/po/ (9 files in 9 dirs): updated Hungarian translation
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20091103 22:52:56< CIA-61> shadowmaster * r39592 /trunk/src/color_range.hpp: Document the color range/team coloring interface
20091103 22:53:22< shadowmaster> those who aren't using ccache (or wiped out a ~6 GB cache like me) will suffer a bit. ,)
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20091103 23:04:16< fendrin> shadowmaster: the ccache is located where?
20091103 23:05:07< CIA-61> shadowmaster * r39593 /trunk/src/ (color_range.hpp sdl_utils.hpp): Document recolor_image().
20091103 23:05:17< shadowmaster> usually ~/.ccache
20091103 23:05:24< fendrin> I enabled that cache but the directory size of my build dir hasn't increased.
20091103 23:06:43< fendrin> There is only a ".cache" in my home. But it's empty.
20091103 23:06:52< shadowmaster> you have ccache installed?
20091103 23:07:15< fendrin> No, thought it would be a gcc feature.
20091103 23:07:54< shadowmaster> 2.2G    /home/shadowm/src/wesnoth/build/debug/  <- oh man.
20091103 23:08:30< fendrin> shadowmaster: Do I gain anything with a debug compile if I am not a c++ coder?
20091103 23:08:51< loonycyborg> Not unless you use gdb..
20091103 23:08:53< shadowmaster> only if some lazy coder asks you for a backtrace.
20091103 23:09:09< shadowmaster> or more especifically, one with all symbols.
20091103 23:09:29< shadowmaster> if one does you can just pretend you don't have enough disk space :)
20091103 23:12:35< loonycyborg> ccache is usually useless unless you go back to a previously built revision, e.g. when bisecting.
20091103 23:13:16< shadowmaster> it's very useful when you go crazy and wipe out the build dir.
20091103 23:13:35< loonycyborg> Indeed. That too.
20091103 23:13:36< fendrin> hmmm, it's only 9.3M in size.
20091103 23:13:48< shadowmaster> or when someone hacks the scons stuff and then scons decides to recompile everything despite the parameters have not changed.
20091103 23:21:02< AI0867> Ivanovic: how do you want POs that aren't in mainline?
20091103 23:21:27< Ivanovic> AI0867: i want them sent to torangan, i don't handle wescamp myself
20091103 23:22:15< AI0867> k
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 04 00:00:05 2009