--- Log opened Wed Nov 18 00:00:46 2009
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20091118 00:12:17< alink> hi
20091118 00:13:34< shadowmaster> alink: esr might be interested in some description of the sidebar changes for the 1.8 announcement
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20091118 00:14:09< esr> alink: Yes, I would be.
20091118 00:14:32< esr> Jetrel: I have an art rwequest for pre-1.8.
20091118 00:14:36< alink> esr: basically, sidebar now show more important numbers used by game rules which were less visible before (terrain def% and alignement bonus/malus)
20091118 00:14:37< shadowmaster> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/website/start/1.8/index.en.html for current version.
20091118 00:14:59< esr> alink: Goot to know that.
20091118 00:15:06< Jetrel> esr:  okay... my biggest priority pre-1.8 is getting the last two drakes done.
20091118 00:15:56< alink> also Name,type,race use different fonts for better differentiation but that not important enough for the anoucement
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20091118 00:16:14< alink> *fonts + colors
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20091118 00:16:43< Jetrel> esr:  do tell, though
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20091118 00:17:01< esr> Jetrel: Noted.  I have only one urgent issue really.  DM is short a couple portraits, but the one that's kind if oannoying to ddo have is LLeollyn.
20091118 00:17:22< esr> s/oannoying to ddo/annoying not to have/
20091118 00:17:49< esr> Right now he's indistinguishable from the Four Oracles.
20091118 00:18:16< Jetrel> esr:  honestly, I'm really not that good at portraits.  You'd probably do better to wait.  Sorry to disappoint.
20091118 00:18:24< esr> Alas.
20091118 00:18:35< esr> I'll prod Kitty. Gentrly.
20091118 00:18:56< alink> for the user interface, one change which may interest new users, is the direct attack dialog when doing move+attack action. But I didn't have any feedback on that, so i don't know if really useful/liked
20091118 00:19:20< Jetrel> esr:   I'm consider myself pretty good at sprites, but unfortunately, at the current point in my life, it's kind of crazy for me to spend my time building skill at larger-scale drawing, because I'd have to get MUCH better (I'd have to be as good as kitty) to be marketable.
20091118 00:19:43< alink> s/new users/old users
20091118 00:19:47< esr> Jetrel: I understand the problem.
20091118 00:19:51< Jetrel> esr:  unfortunately for me, programming is what pays the bills. :|
20091118 00:20:14< Jetrel> s/unfortunately/fortunately ?
20091118 00:20:15< esr> She outclasses the rest of our portraitist by a pretty wide margin.
20091118 00:20:30< Aethaeryn> idk, Lord Bob has some good portraits.
20091118 00:20:35< Jetrel> esr:  sole exception maybe being LordBob - he's pretty good too.
20091118 00:21:05< esr> Jetrel: And, BTW, kudoless to you for being egoless about it.
20091118 00:21:10< Jetrel> But yes, the both of them are emminently professional, and really do outclass everyone else.
20091118 00:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 69 bugs, 244 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091118 00:21:47< esr> kudos, I mean.
20091118 00:21:52< Jetrel> :)
20091118 00:21:58< esr> (I hate my tyos)
20091118 00:22:17< esr> typos
20091118 00:22:22< esr> Aaarrgghh..
20091118 00:22:41< esr> Anyway.
20091118 00:22:42< Jetrel> esr:  that extra finger you bought the other day isn't working out too well, eh?
20091118 00:23:07< esr> It's these tentacles.  They keep dripping slime on the keyboard.
20091118 00:23:42< esr> Other than the missing Lleollyn, DM is in really good shape.
20091118 00:24:07< esr> I think it's better polished than LoW was at this point before 1.6.
20091118 00:27:56< fendrin> hmmm
20091118 00:30:42< fendrin> I have a linker error that isn't connected to a line in the sourcecode. How can this be debugged?
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20091118 00:31:39< fendrin> undefined reference to `vtable for gui2::toption_message_right'
20091118 00:33:05< loonycyborg> I remember getting that myself though I don't remember the exact reason.
20091118 00:33:37< shadowmaster> inheritance issue.
20091118 00:33:59< shadowmaster> that probably happens if you don't implement a virtual method at some point or something. can't remember :(
20091118 00:34:17< fendrin> That sounds reasonable. 
20091118 00:34:50< shadowmaster> I don't have the code either (nor want to look at it, I'm having fun with IRC)
20091118 00:38:52< loonycyborg> shadowmaster: That error is not from current trunk fortunately :P
20091118 00:38:58< shadowmaster> yeah, I know that
20091118 00:42:30< Jetrel> esr:  completely random question:  what do they call the hand-grips on the interior of a shield?  I'm looking a decent photo of them on the net.
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20091118 00:44:10< esr> Just "grips", usually.
20091118 00:44:37< esr> Or straps, if they're flexible.  (They are in my style.)
20091118 00:45:59< esr> Actually, in my style we normally have a centered handgrip and a leather forearm strap..
20091118 00:47:48< alink> Jetrel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enarmes 
20091118 00:50:30 * alink goes try to catch some leonids, gn
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20091118 01:01:11< Jetrel> alink:  thanks.
20091118 01:02:21< CIA-55> esr * r39834 /website/start/1.8/template.html: Mention alink's UI tuning.
20091118 01:02:59< esr> Jetrel: My school doesn't use that term.  But I believe it - the Old French etynology is obvious.
20091118 01:03:34 * Jetrel nods
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20091118 01:13:12< didi> Is there another place, besides <http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WritingYourOwnAI>, which describes the AI API?
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20091118 04:00:41< shadowmaster> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16233
20091118 04:01:11< shadowmaster> "How to get a campaign in" is such a big lie... there's no formal nomination process nowadays
20091118 04:02:15< shadowmaster> someone could replace that little paragraph with "get mr. prosedoctoring to like it and you're in".
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20091118 04:47:21< shadowmaster> oh gods, phpBB 3.0.6 available now!
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20091118 05:56:25< CIA-55> fendrin * r39835 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Splitted wml_message in several classes.
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20091118 08:57:03-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: string/feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 244 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091118 08:57:03-!- Topic set by wesbot [] [Wed Nov 18 06:21:15 2009]
20091118 08:57:03[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20091118 08:57:03[ _teddy   ] [ CIA-55 ] [ freim   ] [ knotwork ] [ Rhonda      ] [ SonIcco  ] 
20091118 08:57:03[ AI0867   ] [ dtiger ] [ ilor    ] [ lobby    ] [ shadowmaster] [ Tigge    ] 
20091118 08:57:03[ AnMaster ] [ DuClare] [ isaac   ] [ lukjad007] [ shikadibot  ] [ wesbot   ] 
20091118 08:57:03[ ardesh   ] [ erl    ] [ Ivanovic] [ maerline ] [ Smar        ] [ Zarel    ] 
20091118 08:57:03[ Chusslove] [ fendrin] [ Jetrel  ] [ noy      ] [ Soliton     ] [ zookeeper] 
20091118 08:57:03-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 30 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 30 normal]
20091118 08:57:16-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20091118 16:24:28< didi> Is there another place, besides <http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WritingYourOwnAI>, which describes the AI API?
20091118 16:27:03< Crab_> didi: what do you mean by API ? c++ things or WML things ?
20091118 16:29:02< didi> Crab_: Whatever I've got. I mean the ways one could control an AI.
20091118 16:30:05< Crab_> I've started to write a guide for 1.8 ai specifics, but, meanwhile, you can see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AI_Module
20091118 16:30:05< didi> Crab_: I saw in the week that wesnoth had a pyton API for that but it was apparently dropped.
20091118 16:30:15< didi> *wiki
20091118 16:31:29< Crab_> at the moment, wesnoth has AI based on c++ code, which can be assembled from various c++ and formula_ai pieces (it's a domain-specific language)
20091118 16:31:29< didi> Crab_: Is it C++?
20091118 16:32:44< Crab_> c++ and non-c++ pieces can be used together.
20091118 16:33:13< didi> Crab_: Do you mean by wrapping it?
20091118 16:34:18< Crab_> didi: see the example (from LoW 3) : http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2665bf36
20091118 16:35:02< Crab_> didi: in the example, you'll see a new-style WML config of an ai. turn of that ai consists of two stages
20091118 16:35:27< Crab_> firstly, it does stage #1, then, stage #2
20091118 16:35:38< didi> Nice.
20091118 16:35:46< Crab_> stage #1 is written using formula ai - see that " if(my_leader!=null,if( (my_leader.hitpoints<my_leader.max_hitpoints/2) or (turn>=3),move(my_leader.loc,next_hop(my_leader.loc,loc(20,6))),move(my_leader.loc,my_leader.loc)),null)  "
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20091118 16:36:00< Crab_> stage #2 is a c++-based stage, which implements a 'base decision loop'
20091118 16:36:54< Crab_> for the purposes of that specific scenario, that decision loop consists only of two base 'candidate actions', one of them deals with combat, other with non-combat movement towards targets.
20091118 16:37:15< didi> I wonder, the link that you gave me describes all the functions related to AI or just the ones I would use to implement one?
20091118 16:40:07< Crab_> didi: formula ai syntax is described elsewhere - http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/FormulaAI and http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FormulaAI_Functions
20091118 16:40:33< Crab_> didi: also, some helpful ai-related WML macroses are currently not documented
20091118 16:41:13< didi> Crab_: I am not restricted to FomulaAI or WML, am I?
20091118 16:42:35< Crab_> didi: if you're willing to change the code and recompile your instance of wesnoth, you can change the c++ part, as well.
20091118 16:43:14< Crab_> but, if you use only formula_ai or WML, others can use your changes using standard wesnoth.
20091118 16:43:31< didi> Crab_: Actually I was just thinking in reusing another's libraries.
20091118 16:45:08< Crab_> well, if you want to reuse the libs (i.e. in another project) you should start with the source (most of it is inside src/ai)
20091118 16:45:34< didi> Crab_: But if I, say, use c++, I could not handle that to another user, right? Because I needs to be compiled inside the games code, doesn't it?
20091118 16:46:46< Crab_> yes, (with the exception that you can host games using your modified source without other people, using std wesnoth, noticing that)
20091118 16:48:44< Crab_> (of course you can always submit a patch to be added in a next wesnoth version). but, if you're going to distribute something to other users of standard wesnoth, you need to stick with WML/formula_ai.
20091118 16:49:59< Crab_> to make an ai using WML/formula_ai, you need to decide on three main things - 1) what will be the turn sequence of the ai (you can just include standard one) 2) which of the parameters, which affect the AIs behavior (such as AIs aggression), will you tune. 3) which goals you'll set for AI
20091118 16:51:19< Crab_> most of the mainline campaigns use only (2) and (3)
20091118 16:52:08< Crab_> and most of the stuff they use is decribed here - http://wiki.wesnoth.org/AIWML
20091118 16:54:00< didi> That sounds great, although I must say that my initial intention is to use a general-purpose language, like c++. Actually, not c++, but let it rest. I will read about WML/formula_ai, thank you.
20091118 16:54:35< Crab_> didi: well, in a year or so, I hope we'll have lua as a general-purpose language for ai writing.
20091118 16:55:02< didi> Crab_: Why did you drop python?
20091118 16:56:14< Crab_> didi: security issues. see discussions on the mailing list https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2009-02/msg00036.html
20091118 16:56:25< Ivanovic> hi
20091118 16:56:30< Crab_> hi Ivanovic
20091118 16:58:21< didi> Crab_: Oh, I see.
20091118 16:58:33< Crab_> didi: but, for today, your best bet is to use WML config to assemble an ai from 'stock' c++ parts ,and maybe add some formula_ai snippets in there for extra effect.
20091118 16:58:39< didi> Crab_: But won't Lua have the same problems?
20091118 16:59:47< Crab_> didi: afair, no, it has got better sandboxing capabilities. 
20091118 16:59:55< didi> Crab_: Nice.
20091118 17:01:19< Crab_> didi: for example of ai made from 'stock c++ parts', see http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m5997a3f7
20091118 17:01:58< Crab_> it is a 'full' ai, and it is better than current 1.7 default one :)
20091118 17:05:49< didi> Crab_: Seems really compact.
20091118 17:06:26< Crab_> each  [candidate_action] piece is a reference to C++ code snippet
20091118 17:08:09< Crab_> the game ask each of these pieces of code: "here's the game situation, do you want to do something?", and then, the piece which said "yes" and has highest "score" gets to play a bit. then, the question is repeated (until all pieces of code say "no").
20091118 17:09:54< Crab_> so, it can be read as "if there are good goto movements, do them else if it is good to recruit, do so, else if it is good to move leader to goals, do so, else if it is good to move leader to keep do so, else if it is good to fight, do so, else ..."
20091118 17:10:54< Crab_> and you can mix-in formula-ai based candidate actions (where you can specify the answers to those 'do you want to play?' and 'what shall be done when you get to play?' questions)
20091118 17:11:50< Crab_> e.g. you can state things like 'if it is possible to move any elvish archer from non-forested hex to forested hex, do so'
20091118 17:14:33< didi> Crab_: It seems great. I will take a loot at it. Thank you for your time, Crab_.
20091118 17:14:51< Crab_> np
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20091118 19:30:07< fendrin> what is the attribute definition in the new gui wml syntax used for?
20091118 19:34:52< Soliton> hmm, i wonder if it might be better to easily allow using the old or new lobby. there are still a lot of regressions...
20091118 19:48:41< Soliton> Ivanovic: i've backed up the 1.7/trunk addon data, cleared it out and now we can have a true trunk server. the question is what port to use...
20091118 19:49:54< Soliton> Ivanovic: what about having the default port for +svn versions actually point to that server and only change it to the current port for releases? too much hassle?
20091118 19:51:20< Soliton> it might be nice to have the default addon server for trunk ready with some addons to test stuff.
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20091118 20:06:10< CIA-55> fendrin * r39836 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/src/menu_events.cpp: Replaced the call to show_wml_message with a call to show_recall_message.
20091118 20:07:27< CIA-55> fendrin * r39837 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/src/gui/widgets/settings.cpp: Added the name of the missing window to the error message if parsing the gui components fails.
20091118 20:09:48< CIA-55> fendrin * r39838 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/src/game_events.cpp: Show a input message dialogue instead of a icon message dialogue if text_input tag was provided.
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20091118 20:12:05< CIA-55> fendrin * r39839 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/src/gui/dialogs/ (wml_message.cpp wml_message.hpp): Implemented constructors for the left right wrapper classes.
20091118 20:19:33< Ivanovic> Soliton: i think in general it is best to use the same server for trunk as for dev
20091118 20:19:43< Ivanovic> simply because those are often compatible
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20091118 20:20:00< Ivanovic> (and yeah, i prefer not to have change ports when releasing, this is tiny stuff that can easily be forgotten)
20091118 20:22:16< Soliton> Ivanovic: how do we want to assign the ports in the future? i.e. how many old versions will we run at the same time?
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20091118 20:40:09< Ivanovic> old versions i'd say: previous stable, current stable and dev+svn
20091118 20:40:31< Ivanovic> so with 1.8 we shut down the 1.4 addon server and start a new development one for 1.9+trunk
20091118 20:40:56< Ivanovic> with other words: basically comparable to the mp servers with the exception that dev and trunk share one
20091118 20:46:26< Soliton> well, why did we use 15001 for 1.8 and not 15005 (1.4)?
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20091118 21:39:58< CIA-55> fendrin * r39840 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/data/gui/default/window/icon_message.cfg: Still not working config for the message dialogues updated.
20091118 21:52:59< Ivanovic> Soliton: because of possible crazy uploaders
20091118 21:53:10< Ivanovic> Soliton: imagine someone using debian trys to upload to "his" addon server
20091118 21:53:21< Ivanovic> then some 1.4.x stuff will end on the 1.8.x server
20091118 21:53:40< Ivanovic> before we can "reuse" ports easily we need some versions_accepted derivate for the addon server
20091118 21:56:18< Soliton> well, then let's just leave the 1.4 server running..
20091118 21:58:06< Ivanovic> IMO we should shut it down once 1.8 is out
20091118 21:58:18< Ivanovic> just to somehow have policys in sync for mp as well as addons
20091118 21:58:27< shadowmaster> *grumble*
20091118 21:58:37< Ivanovic> (and so that we don't accumulate too many running services on wesnoth.org)
20091118 22:00:05< Soliton> well, i don't really mind either way but you have to decide between crazy uploaders and shutting down old servers.
20091118 22:00:33< Ivanovic> Soliton: shutting down old servers does not mean that we should directly reuse the ports
20091118 22:00:44< Soliton> anyhow it's not so important. we can just wait and see when an addon server overhaul comes...
20091118 22:00:59< Ivanovic> and crazy uploaders are the reason not to directly use the same port unless we get some "version check"
20091118 22:01:11< Soliton> ok, i see.
20091118 22:01:25< Ivanovic> regarding the addon server overhaul: ilor will do some addon server project as university project
20091118 22:02:37< shadowmaster> do we really need a "Policy for adding campaigns to mainline" thread in the forums, with Announcement status?
20091118 22:02:38< Soliton> i haven't seen a definitive go ahead for that but it sounded indeed like it will happen.
20091118 22:04:52< Soliton> shadowmaster: it's nice to have, no? if it's outdated update it?
20091118 22:05:15< shadowmaster> yeah, I'm the one in charge of adding campaigns to mainline now?
20091118 22:05:18< Ivanovic> Soliton: regarding yesterdays chat it sounds very, very likely
20091118 22:05:24< shadowmaster> who should I poke to update that thing?
20091118 22:06:06< Soliton> what's the issue?
20091118 22:06:36< loonycyborg> shadowmaster: Yourself :P
20091118 22:07:53< shadowmaster> the "HOW TO GET A CAMPAIGN IN" part should be the first thing authors should read (e.g. put it at the top), and needs to beupdated with the current procedure for proposing campaigns for mainline (which is... ???)
20091118 22:08:15< Ivanovic> there is no official procedure
20091118 22:08:19< shadowmaster> then nuke the thread
20091118 22:08:27< Ivanovic> i think mainly it is "some dev says it is great and others agree"
20091118 22:08:41< shadowmaster> or clarify all that so nobody sees as a falase promise.
20091118 22:08:42< shadowmaster> false
20091118 22:09:10< shadowmaster> it looks tome me more like a set of guidelines for devs, which would not belong in the forums
20091118 22:09:32< Ivanovic> oh, it can go into the forums
20091118 22:09:50< shadowmaster> .... in a orum for users who make content?
20091118 22:09:54< Ivanovic> since this way addon devs see what we mainline devs use as guidelines, so that they are not suprised
20091118 22:10:06< Soliton> it's a guideline for anyone seeking to get a campaign added to mainline.
20091118 22:10:41< Ivanovic> exactly
20091118 22:10:46< shadowmaster> so the HOW TO GET A CAMPAIGN IN part should still be replaced and put on the top to clarify that
20091118 22:10:56< Soliton> i don't really see where that post gives false hope.
20091118 22:11:40< Soliton> well, edit as you like? i'm sure that procedure can be updated/improved a lot.
20091118 22:14:46< Soliton> btw, maybe we could use some neutral admin account for announcments like that that doesn't really belong to a specific person but speaks for all of us?
20091118 22:15:51< fendrin> a user just called "wesnoth"?
20091118 22:16:08< Soliton> yeah, something like that.
20091118 22:16:10< shadowmaster> or "Developers Team"?
20091118 22:16:35< Crab_> well, imo, it's better to use a first-person approach, especially when saying something great and cool
20091118 22:17:01< fendrin> "Lord Wesnoth"
20091118 22:17:11< shadowmaster> preferably something serious.
20091118 22:18:47< Soliton> can you make PMs to an account accessible to a whole group somehow?
20091118 22:19:52< Soliton> part of why i think it should be a seperate account is so not one person is bothered about some specific topic that might not even be his primary focus.
20091118 22:20:31< shadowmaster> why should it accept PMs?
20091118 22:20:44< shadowmaster> users can PM whole groups already (e.g. Administrators, Developers...)
20091118 22:20:49< Soliton> well, not accepting PMs would work as well, i guess.
20091118 22:21:01< fendrin> Soliton: you can register the user with an email that is in fact a mailing list verteiler. I guess you can adjust the forum to send the whole message in the email.
20091118 22:21:22< Soliton> but it should be clear you can't PM that account and not so just no one ever reads those PMs.
20091118 22:22:16< shadowmaster> every user has the power to choose whether people can send PMs to them or not (although admins are not affected by their choice)
20091118 22:22:28< shadowmaster> if they choose not to be PM'able, then the PM button is hidden IIRC
20091118 22:22:42< Soliton> ok, cool.
20091118 22:25:31< shadowmaster> *Developer* happens to be a disallowed username pattern
20091118 22:26:13< Soliton> i wonder if you can change that...
20091118 22:26:37< shadowmaster> yes, I guess noone would register IAmDeveloper anyway :p
20091118 22:27:29< Soliton> it doesn't affect existing accounts anyway maybe? so you can reinstate it later.
20091118 22:28:17< shadowmaster> it won't allow me to readd it later once the account is registered (and who knows what would happen if I forced it into the databae)
20091118 22:28:30< Soliton> ah, i see.
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20091118 22:31:23< Crab_> shadowmaster: can you change the disallowed username pattern to explicitly allow one username but not other ? (i.e. 'can you use regexes in there ?')
20091118 22:31:51< boucman> hey all
20091118 22:31:59< shadowmaster> nah, it is intended to work with simple patterns with *
20091118 22:32:09< boucman> wesbot: seen thespaceinvader
20091118 22:32:10< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick thespaceinvader last spoke 1d 10h ago.  23h 9m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: "ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.15/2009101601]"
20091118 22:32:19< shadowmaster> I could actually hack an extra rule at registration time
20091118 22:32:27< Crab_> hi boucman
20091118 22:32:47< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes, hacks do work :) won't it mean more trouble during updating, through ?
20091118 22:33:50< shadowmaster> it's a lot of trouble for updating already. Basically I have to create a new forum tree on my laptop and reapply mods by hand
20091118 22:34:07< shadowmaster> which is what I started last night for phpBB 3.0.6 
20091118 22:35:41< Soliton> do things change so much that the patches don't apply?
20091118 22:36:59< shadowmaster> occasionally.
20091118 22:37:15< shadowmaster> sometimes it's more a problem of "patches don't work well with any changed functionality"
20091118 22:38:51< shadowmaster> so for example I'll have to wait a few weeks to reapply the "view or mark unread posts" in my 3.0.6 tree, since the new version has just been submitted for revalidation
20091118 22:40:55< boucman> esr: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=393813#p393813 <= you might want to contact him if you want more wmllint testers prior to 1.8
20091118 22:42:08< shadowmaster> Soliton: you are not in the hidden channel
20091118 22:44:36< esr> boucman: Noted.
20091118 22:45:38-!- faryshta [n=faryshta@168.255.251.50] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091118 22:46:25< faryshta> Who is the maintainer of LoW?
20091118 22:47:08< boucman> faryshta: before all things, hello :)
20091118 22:47:49< boucman> faryshta: if it's an AI problem it's Crab_, for anything else, I don't remember off the top of my head...
20091118 22:48:23< fendrin> faryshta: Hi faryshta. I am the maintainer of LoW. 
20091118 22:48:43< fendrin> I got your pm since my forum name is fabi.
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20091118 22:49:42< Ivanovic> hi kitty_
20091118 22:49:47< kitty_> hi
20091118 22:49:55< Ivanovic> kitty_: esr was looking for some portrait stuff this night
20091118 22:50:25< Ivanovic> that is: he asked Jetrel, but he just answered that you (or TSI) are more likely to be the right ones to ask
20091118 22:50:30< kitty_> esr: I read that you wanted some portrait for DM - I will have time for that in the first week of december earliest
20091118 22:50:44< esr> kitty: Yes.
20091118 22:50:46< fendrin> kitty_: DM misses a portrait for Delfador's Mentor. 
20091118 22:51:06< kitty_> it will be first on my list as soon as I'll have time - promise
20091118 22:51:20< esr> There are still a few missing for DM but the only one I consider urgent before 1.8 is LLeollyn.
20091118 22:51:38< kitty_> is there already some description of him on the forums or just some generic wizard?
20091118 22:51:43< esr> Friendly mage, Delfador's patron a court.
20091118 22:51:50< kitty_> ok
20091118 22:51:54< esr> Hold on, I'll find it.
20091118 22:52:28< kitty_> if you need that one pre 1.8 - when will that aprox. be? (i'm pretty much out of the loop atm)
20091118 22:52:28< shadowmaster> I should note that TRoW lacks all portraits.
20091118 22:52:36< esr>  http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24805
20091118 22:52:39< shadowmaster> and is fairly more popular than DM ;)
20091118 22:52:58< esr> What he's like: Leollyn is a good man - honest, intelligent, loyal to his king, and a friend of Delfador's mentor Methor. He takes Delfador under his wing at court. He doesn't watch his back, though, and will be murdered by a conniving rival. I imagine a man in healthy middle age with a benign, open expression, someone who would both inspire trust and deserve it. I see him wearing simpler...
20091118 22:53:00< esr> ...clothing than would be normal for a man with the kind of court position he has, well-made but unostentatious.
20091118 22:53:11< Ivanovic> considering how bad we somehow are atm (quite some polishing to be done) i'd guess "mid december" is the earliest possible
20091118 22:53:30< kitty_> shadowmaster: of course, all mainline campaigns will be taken care of with the time ;)
20091118 22:53:55< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: i'd guess that in 1.8 DM will be played more than TROW because it is *new*
20091118 22:53:56< Ivanovic> ;)
20091118 22:54:03< kitty_> mid december sound very managebale for me - great :)
20091118 22:54:22< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: suuure
20091118 22:55:08< esr> kitty_: I should also note that DM needs a generic Wose portarait, something other campaigns would benefit from as well.
20091118 22:55:13< kitty_> esr - great, detailed description to work from - thanks! just one detail -what kind of unit is he? whit mage? MoL?
20091118 22:55:25< esr> Checking...
20091118 22:55:59< esr> Arch Mage
20091118 22:56:06< kitty_> ok
20091118 22:56:27< faryshta> fendrin, hi sorry for my late response.
20091118 22:56:40< esr> kitty_: Thanks for getting back to me.
20091118 22:57:13< faryshta> fendrin, so if you read my pm, there is nothing here to add. So, how is it going?
20091118 22:57:47< esr> kitty_: Is a generic Ghost portrait on your list?
20091118 22:58:03< faryshta> boucman, thanks, it was a WML issue (I think).
20091118 22:58:10< kitty_> all generic ghosts were done during WSAS
20091118 22:58:34< esr> Really?  Maybe I can cross that one off, then.
20091118 22:59:14< kitty_> the wose is a big, big problem due to the no cropping. the one tsi did works, but I'm not a big fan of the concept and don't feel much appetite to do my own rendition of it. hero/villian portraits for the mainline campaigns are more important than bonus variants atm for me
20091118 22:59:31< esr> Noted.
20091118 22:59:43< esr> I'll cross the Ghost off my list.
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20091118 23:00:31< fendrin> kitty_: can't the wose's dialogue not displayed at the top of the screen? That way we could use images that are cropped north.
20091118 23:00:56< esr> That leaves Lleollyn and the Four Oracles.  Portraits for the Four Oracles would be very nice but I don't think they're critical pre-1.8.
20091118 23:01:06< kitty_> fendrin: no idea - that'S a question for mordante... (but not a urgent one - tsi'S wose works)
20091118 23:02:41< kitty_> esr: the oracles don't really warrant individual portraits at all. they only appear in one scene - that's way to much work for that. simply have tham appear to the left and right alternating.
20091118 23:02:46< fendrin> kitty_: I am currently recoding the dialogue for the messages that display a portrait. I could add a dialogue that displays at the top of the screen if you support that.
20091118 23:03:38< esr> kitty_: I agree.  What I'd like to do is have one portrait in a sort of hieratic sign-of-Isis osition, with a maggenta area that I can rtecolor with TC.
20091118 23:04:09< kitty_> fendrin: hmm, it's temptimg for the wose... but the general flow of the reading will be *much* better with a fixed position. so, i'd rather say no
20091118 23:04:12< esr> That way I can give easch of the four different-colored trim - Earth, Air, Fire, and Water.
20091118 23:04:36< kitty_> esr: TC on portraits? does that work? and is this used? 
20091118 23:04:52< esr> Actually...I don't know.
20091118 23:04:53< zookeeper> you can TC portraits if you want
20091118 23:04:58< shadowmaster> it's not used.
20091118 23:05:13< shadowmaster> esr: it won't work
20091118 23:05:17< zookeeper> it doesn't work for unit type portraits of course
20091118 23:05:21< zookeeper> but that's not the case here
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20091118 23:05:47< kitty_> ah, thanks for the info
20091118 23:05:49< shadowmaster> it won't work because you'd have to restrain to the very short magenta palette
20091118 23:05:59< shadowmaster> you can imagine why it is only intended to be used with pixel art
20091118 23:06:16< shadowmaster> OTOH,you can still define a looooong palette for recoloring a single image
20091118 23:06:22< kitty_> the artist could simply provide four hand-recoloured variants - no?
20091118 23:06:31< esr> Yes. We don't need to decide this now. 
20091118 23:06:54< Crab_> boucman: I've got some time to re-read the code of default ai recruitment. I'm intrigued about the fact that it still works  (it has some slight bugs which break it in certain situations, and it has several very weird fragments of code that make some ai parameters work 'not as intended'
20091118 23:07:07< esr> You know what I mean by sign of Isis?  Arms crossed over the chest, X fashion.
20091118 23:07:14< esr> A ritual pose.
20091118 23:08:08 * esr is a 3rd-degree Wiccan. Occasionally this is relevant...
20091118 23:08:15< boucman> Crab_: hehe
20091118 23:08:19< zookeeper> even the default magenta palette has 19 shades. still, it's probably better to just have separate images.
20091118 23:08:29< boucman> so what do you think should be done ?
20091118 23:08:36< kitty_> yes, I'm not thrilled by it, because it is rather boring but it will work. but that's for the oracle, not lleolyn, right?
20091118 23:08:50< esr> Yes.
20091118 23:09:27< Crab_> boucman: 1) fork & try to rework the code without breaking the intended algorithm, and see how it goes   2) consult about some shady places in there.
20091118 23:09:50< esr> Also, if you get to it, the Oracles shpould probably be blinfolded.  Seers and oracles often are, un canon.
20091118 23:10:02< esr> s/un canon/in canon/
20091118 23:10:41< esr> But, as I said, the Oracles can wait.
20091118 23:11:11< kitty_> hmm, no expression with the hands and body and none with half the face as well - are you serious? that sounds bad - but we can discuss that after leollyn is done 
20091118 23:11:53< esr> kitty_: It's a concept.  I respect your artistic judgment, so I'm open to suggestions.
20091118 23:12:01< boucman> Crab_: 3) wait for deekay and his new algorithm ? :)
20091118 23:12:11< boucman> since it seems to work enough for 1.8
20091118 23:13:01< Crab_> boucman: the main problem is that, while it works, sometimes some ai parameters have no effect, or have unintended effect, or have random effect.
20091118 23:13:03< kitty_> esr: :) i'll probaby go with one of them, wether blindfolded or isis stance
20091118 23:13:07< esr> But it's worth noting that these figures are *supposed* to be stiff and hieratic.  Your normal bias towards expressiveness and visuasl drama is a good thing but may not be the right angle here.
20091118 23:13:50< kitty_> that's a good argument...
20091118 23:13:58< Crab_> it has some hacky safeguards to 'recruit at least something if you think that you're not allowed to recruit anything':)
20091118 23:15:17< boucman> hmm
20091118 23:16:49< boucman> Crab_: not sure what to tell you...
20091118 23:17:09< boucman> the unused parameters can either be documented as such or made to work again
20091118 23:17:19< boucman> those that have wweird effect are usually trickier...
20091118 23:17:43< boucman> fortunately, AI is played only on one side and the orders broadcasted to others, so no risk of OOS
20091118 23:17:59< boucman> however changing the meaning of ai parameters could unbalance campaigns...
20091118 23:19:26< Crab_> well, for now,I'll leave trunk code as-is, but I'll want to ask about the meaning of some places of code, if/when you have time
20091118 23:19:55< boucman> Crab_: not tonight then, probably this we
20091118 23:20:02< boucman> night all
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20091118 23:23:47< CIA-55> ivanovic * r39841 /trunk/ (10 files in 7 dirs): updated German and Russian translation
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20091118 23:28:23< esr> kitty: If your still there, note that JustinOperable's work on the Tomb Guardian turned out very well.  That scene strengthened DM a lot.  
20091118 23:29:06< kitty_> noted ;)
20091118 23:31:12< esr> kitty_: How is the Great Portait Replacement going, in general?   Are you within sight of having it completed yet?  (Not a nudge, just curious.)
20091118 23:33:20< kitty_> it's looking pretty good. only the orcs (on which lodbob is currenty working), some undead units and some mixed monsters are mssing!
20091118 23:34:16< kitty_> plus higher level variants for the drakes and elves - but we can definitely see the light!
20091118 23:35:25< shadowmaster> .... I think I turned the Art Contributions forum into a rainbow.
20091118 23:35:37< shadowmaster> there's even a Translator with his colored username there :D
20091118 23:35:58< esr> kitty_: That's good.
20091118 23:36:50< esr> kitty_: When you get to redoing the Under The Burning Suns character stuff we should talk.  
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20091118 23:37:25< shadowmaster> and me.
20091118 23:37:30< kitty_> shadowmaster: ? lightblue, olive, pink, red - yes. where is purple, green, yellow, orange etc?
20091118 23:37:31< fendrin> shadowmaster: You have updated elf images somewhere. Can I see the whole set? I refer to the ones you posted in a test message during a forum restart.
20091118 23:38:20< shadowmaster> kitty_: green was deprecated, purple is unused, oranage has just been added there, and yellow isn't web browser-friendly on light backgroudns :P
20091118 23:38:36< shadowmaster> fendrin: uhhh, that is from JEtrel
20091118 23:38:40< esr> While I agree the UtBS portraits need upgrading I think they'e a bit of a special case - I'd like to see some of their present feel preserved, even though it no longer matches the "house style".
20091118 23:38:58< shadowmaster> fendrin: that is, I don't know if Jetrel wants me to show them :)
20091118 23:39:06< kitty_> shadowmaster: sad little rainbow
20091118 23:39:29< fendrin> shadowmaster: Not even in the hidden forum?
20091118 23:39:35< esr> Something for you to think about, anyway.
20091118 23:40:05< shadowmaster> fendrin: http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=33466
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20091118 23:40:07< shadowmaster> WIP
20091118 23:41:01< shadowmaster> esr: could I have some influence on UtBS' portrait updates when the time comes?
20091118 23:41:06< kitty_> esr: actually I for my part plan to start with smaller projects first, two brothers, southguard and the like. for utbs I would most definetely kep the current ones in mind when redoing them - more of an update
20091118 23:41:49< fendrin> shadowmaster: I am not authorised to downlad this attachment.
20091118 23:41:57< esr> shadowmaster: Don't see why not.  I don't own UtBS, exactly, it's just that I've done a lot of polishing on it.
20091118 23:42:16< shadowmaster> fendrin: ohhh, you are not a Shady Test Person :P I'll PM it to you then
20091118 23:42:23< esr> kitty_: Noted.  I encourage that approach.
20091118 23:44:24< esr> kitty_: Since I know that thought is in your mind, I'll stop worrying even to the limited extent I was. :-)  I trust your good taste to take it the rest of the way.  
20091118 23:44:26< shadowmaster> fendrin: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r176/shadowm2006/elf-archer-comp.png
20091118 23:44:44< kitty_> shadowmaster: not that I plan to work on utbs any time soon, but out of curiosity - what would your ideas be? (roughly)
20091118 23:44:47< shadowmaster> this is from months ago, so it might be outdated if Jetrel has continued working on it.
20091118 23:45:23< shadowmaster> kitty_: ahhh, maybe add some similarity to the IftU counterparts for Eloh and Elyssa?
20091118 23:45:32< shadowmaster> (since Elynia was supposed to be Eloh, etc.)
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20091118 23:46:00< kitty_> :O
20091118 23:46:30< shadowmaster> what? I said something wrong? :(
20091118 23:46:59< fendrin> shadowmaster: thank you.
20091118 23:47:02< shadowmaster> (I'm also maintainer of UtBS, you know...)
20091118 23:47:02< kitty_> no, I just really didn't know that
20091118 23:56:13< shadowmaster> wait, there's a yellow usergroup (Summer of Art) :/
20091118 23:57:13< kitty_> :P but nobody wanted  to be in it 
20091118 23:58:21< loonycyborg> kitty_: In the forum group or in Summer of Art in general?
20091118 23:58:47< kitty_> in the forum group
20091118 23:58:50< shadowmaster> nobody wanted to have it as their primary group and color
20091118 23:58:54< shadowmaster> http://forums.wesnoth.org/memberlist.php?mode=group&g=6647
20091118 23:59:09< shadowmaster> (my eyes! I can't see the group name!)
20091118 23:59:42< shadowmaster> they probably didn't want to become invisible people either
20091118 23:59:55< kitty_> exactly
--- Log closed Thu Nov 19 00:00:55 2009