--- Log opened Wed Nov 25 00:00:41 2009
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20091125 00:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.9-1.8beta2 *maybe* planned for tomorrow | string/feature freeze active! | 75 bugs, 248 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091125 02:04:05< sakuraischerry> hi
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20091125 02:11:43< sakuraischerry> hi
20091125 02:11:54< fendrin> hi sakuraischerry
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20091125 02:21:30< sakuraischerry> hi fendrin
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20091125 03:02:55< sakuraischerry> Where is position evaluator in source code ?
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20091125 03:23:35< shadowmaster> sakuraischerry: position evaluator?
20091125 03:25:45< Crab_> sakuraischerry: wesnoth mostly uses pattern matches like 'if THIS, do THAT'. there's a few position evaluators present, but they mostly have support role.
20091125 03:26:17< Crab_> sakuraischerry: for example, you might want to look at  /src/ai/contexts.cpp:874 readonly_context_impl::power_projection function
20091125 03:26:31< sakuraischerry> hi shadowmaster !
20091125 03:26:41< sakuraischerry> hi Crab_  !
20091125 03:26:57< alink> Crab_: note that he didn't said that it was AI related ;)  (even if probable)
20091125 03:27:00 * shadowmaster says hi.
20091125 03:27:35< Crab_> alink: note http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=27550
20091125 03:27:52< Crab_> hi sakuraischerry
20091125 03:28:30< alink> Crab_: with a such common nick, it can be just a coincidence <:o)
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20091125 03:30:45< CIA-55> shadowmaster * r39945 /trunk/changelog: Update changelog regarding the many graphic glitches fixed in NR.
20091125 03:33:10< sakuraischerry> Crab_ : Thank you !
20091125 03:33:40< Crab_> sakuraischerry: power_projection (as is evident from comments in src/ai/context.hpp) is a function which finds how much 'power' a side can attack a certain location with. it is used when calculating 'vulnerability' and 'support' values of each attack which is considered by ai.
20091125 03:34:10< Crab_> so, it affects the AIs 'perception' of how "safe" or "dangerous" each hex is.
20091125 03:34:56< alink> oh, wesnoth google hits are high for position evaluator
20091125 03:34:57< Crab_> attack_analysis::rating (in src/ai/default/attack.cpp) function takes those 'vulnerability' and 'support' values into account when calculating the final rating of an attack
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20091125 03:35:12< Crab_> alink: maybe because we talk about it too much :) ?
20091125 03:35:24< alink> indeed, one is the above link ;)
20091125 03:37:02< Crab_> sakuraischerry: so, changing the way power_projection works and changing the way the attack rating is calculated will surely affect 'which attacks will AI select'. there's much room for improvement there.
20091125 03:38:32< Crab_> alink: yeah, so this forum post becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts :) 'people come to talk about position evaluation because it's in google results, it's in google results because we do talk about it...'
20091125 03:39:12< alink> that's a good marketing method
20091125 03:39:36< alink> for recruiting new devs, not new "customers"
20091125 03:40:04< alink> I hope that it will be the same for LUA
20091125 03:40:07< Crab_> sakuraischerry: power_projection also affects AIs tendency to retreat - AI will retreat units which stand in 'dangerous' hexes, which is determined by evaluating the amount of power both sides can project on that hex where the unit is standing
20091125 03:40:39< alink> (it already works pretty well for SDL)
20091125 03:41:16< Crab_> alink: yes, lua will be a very good thing to have for AIs - for has a very short development cycle because there's no need to compile, and there's already code for hot-redeployment of AIs. so, it'll be possible to try out new ideas very fast.
20091125 03:41:41< Crab_> s/for has/for lua has
20091125 03:44:47< alink> in this case i was more thinking about general use of lua, to grab attention ofr new dev/UM-writer to use wesnoth as way to work on a new game thing, like someone making a wesnoth RPG with LUA.
20091125 03:45:02< sakuraischerry> Crac_ : Thank you ! I'm slow to read English.
20091125 03:45:38< alink> sakuraischerry: hehe, and Crab_ write very fast :) 
20091125 03:45:48< shadowmaster> it's crab_ ; maybe your client supports tab completion (e.g. Cra <tab> to complete Crab_) ?
20091125 03:46:29< Crab_> alink: yes, because I'm talking to you both, and filling my resume at the same time :) so it got to be fast :)
20091125 03:46:37< sakuraischerry> alink : I'm like you :)
20091125 03:46:38< Crab_> sakuraischerry: glad to help. that's not a problem. Take you time :) 
20091125 03:54:13< sakuraischerry> I want to develop indicator that can display easily the relative position strengths.
20091125 03:54:21< CIA-55> alink * r39946 /trunk/src/ (4 files): 
20091125 03:54:21< CIA-55> Only record waypoints when using them for a move. This continues to save them for
20091125 03:54:21< CIA-55> multi-turns moves, but restore the "volatile" way as for the mousehover path.
20091125 03:54:21< CIA-55> This also restores the possibility to try waypoints for enemy paths.
20091125 03:56:19< alink> ^ this also kill a short lived feature/trick allowing to planify your turn by assigning waypoints before moving. But that was too messy to use.
20091125 03:56:34< alink> I hope to try again something similar in 1.9
20091125 03:57:44< Crab_> sakuraischerry: note that it is possible to place labels on map hexes from within C++ code (for example, see /src/ai/formula/function_table.cpp:1236 ). this might be useful to output info about a particular hex in a position.
20091125 03:58:27< Crab_> alink: yes, it allowed to do funny moves in MP )
20091125 04:00:20< alink> it still possible. what I killed was the possibility to record a waypoint for all your moves this turn (instead of moving + undo), as a way to mark the planned move of all units before starting the fight 
20091125 04:01:20< Crab_> alink: ah, understood
20091125 04:03:07< alink> the interface was currently too clumsy for that and it was more trouble (messy paths, need to manually remove all these saved waypoints), and there was a risk of bad move when you clicked too fast and forgetting that you set up a waypoint for this unit 5 min ago
20091125 04:05:01< shadowmaster> alink: btw has esr mentioned the gameplay interface changesi nt eh accuntment already?
20091125 04:05:04< alink> as i said, later in 1.9, with cleaner footprints and simpler mouse interface like drag&drop, i will try again something similar
20091125 04:05:09< shadowmaster> er, changes in the announcement.
20091125 04:05:59< alink> he added the sidebar stuff that you mentionned earlier
20091125 04:06:30< Crab_> 'cleaner footprints' ?
20091125 04:06:47< alink> Crab_: the way we render the path
20091125 04:07:30< alink> currently not supporting well crossing paths (which is never useful for normal use)
20091125 04:07:46< Crab_> ok
20091125 04:07:47< alink> actually, crossing paths were impossible before
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20091125 04:09:56< alink> this was specially bad with the just killed saved waypoint, because when reclicking on a unit with one waypoint and move the mouse a bit, it created a path from the unit, to the waypoint and back to near the unit. And the path was covering itself in a bad way
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20091125 04:11:21< Crab_> is there actually demand for crossing paths ?
20091125 04:11:39< alink> i don't think so
20091125 04:12:26< alink> but the path follow the mouse, so it way happens briefly and we want that to stay clear
20091125 04:12:57< alink> I coded the current footprints, I plan to adapt them at some points
20091125 04:13:10< alink> *point
20091125 04:14:14< sakuraischerry> ＿
20091125 04:14:42< alink> alternatively, if/when we use drag&drop to draw path/waypoints, we may automaticaly shorten path loop.
20091125 04:16:58< sakuraischerry> Crab_: Where is the labels displayed in wesnoth ?
20091125 04:17:12< Crab_> directly on top of map hexes
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20091125 04:17:49< Crab_> each hex can have a label
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20091125 04:20:08< Crab_> sakuraischerry: of course, it is possible to just output a message to player, but then it won't be connected to a hex, just displayed as 'chat message'
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20091125 04:23:54< sakuraischerry> Crab_: 'chat message' is used by WML or Formula ?
20091125 04:24:51< Crab_> sakuraischerry: formula ai uses such chat messages.
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20091125 04:25:19< Crab_> sakuraischerry: WML mostly uses message dialogs (but it has debug capabilities, too)
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20091125 04:29:11< sakuraischerry> Crab_: I see. I think formula is better than C++.
20091125 04:30:53< Crab_> sakuraischerry: ok.
20091125 04:31:47< CIA-55> alink * r39947 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: add a tiny early break and also improve variable consistency
20091125 04:32:15< Crab_> sakuraischerry: I leave soon ( I'm usually here from 12 gmt to 03 gmt ). good luck :)
20091125 04:32:47< sakuraischerry> Crab_: Thank you very much !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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20091125 04:38:40 * alink is back with a fixed spell-check \o/
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20091125 04:38:56< alink> not sure when/why it was deactivated
20091125 04:40:23< alink> btw the fix for spell-check for konversation(if not working) http://www.garyshood.com/konversation/
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20091125 09:42:26< CIA-55> ivanovic * r39948 /trunk/po/wesnoth-manpages/pt_BR.po: updated Portuguese (Brazil) translation
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20091125 11:50:25< sakuraischerry> hi. What is src/ai/testing?
20091125 11:53:07< sakuraischerry> Does program operate src/ai/default ? 
20091125 11:56:58< boucman> sakuraischerry: it's an alternative AI where we test stuff before porting it to default...
20091125 11:57:10< boucman> it can be used by stating it explicitely in WML
20091125 11:57:40< boucman> (I think it can also be used as an oponent in local games when wesnoth is started in debug mode, but I'm not sure
20091125 12:08:17< sakuraischerry> boucman: thank you ! I'm researching "power_projection". Is it used in src/ai/defautl ? 
20091125 12:09:25< boucman> i think it is, but crab would know better than I do...
20091125 12:14:44< sakuraischerry> boucman: I see. I try to research it.
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20091125 16:57:28< BroodKiller> crimson_penguin: poke
20091125 16:57:44< crimson_penguin> hi BroodKiller 
20091125 16:58:02< BroodKiller> howdie, got your disk back? :)
20091125 16:58:49< crimson_penguin> I do indeed
20091125 16:59:01< crimson_penguin> I have a lot to catch up on though
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20091125 17:00:08< BroodKiller> I see, so you'd like to fully restore everything before doing anything?
20091125 17:02:03< crimson_penguin> oh, well I have fully restored everything
20091125 17:03:38< crimson_penguin> ....Except my Wesnoth 1.7 project?
20091125 17:03:45< crimson_penguin> Ugh, wtf
20091125 17:04:06< crimson_penguin> Better go get it from Time Machine I guess
20091125 17:05:36< crimson_penguin> I'm taking that as a sign that that was one of the things that got corrupted, and that I should revert to the older version anyway
20091125 17:07:12< BroodKiller> hmm...when do you think you will have a spare moment to give it a shot and compile my tool?
20091125 17:09:47< BroodKiller> I understand that the new Wesnoth release is a priority, of course
20091125 17:10:32< BroodKiller> I'm just asking to get the general idea if I should go into further development
20091125 17:23:54< fabi> BroodKiller: what does your tool?
20091125 17:24:16-!- fabi is now known as fendrin
20091125 17:24:55< crimson_penguin> BroodKiller: well send me the link to the source again
20091125 17:25:08< crimson_penguin> I don't know, I'll probably get to it at least within a week
20091125 17:25:15 * crimson_penguin is half asleep at the moment
20091125 17:25:51< BroodKiller> crimson_penguin: it's no problem if you're busy
20091125 17:25:58< BroodKiller> fabi: it's an animation editor
20091125 17:26:11< fendrin> cool
20091125 17:26:43< fendrin> It generates animation wml?
20091125 17:26:46< BroodKiller> crimson_penguin: I will try to grab some virtualization soft and see if I can do some testing on it
20091125 17:26:54< BroodKiller> fendrin: yeah
20091125 17:27:10< BroodKiller> it can also preview animations, of course
20091125 17:27:29< BroodKiller> over different backgrounds, and with team colors, if you wish
20091125 17:27:55< BroodKiller> it still lacks some features, but it is finally in a usable state
20091125 17:28:32< crimson_penguin> I'm not actually all that busy, just right now I'm half asleep, and there's a few things I need to do
20091125 17:34:09< BroodKiller> crimson_penguin: http://www.mediafire.com/?gymgumnkzi2
20091125 17:34:45< BroodKiller> I wonder if it wouldn't be better to set up an online repository for it maybe..
20091125 17:35:07< BroodKiller> maybe even at GNA, of all places
20091125 17:41:53< fendrin> BroodKiller: Please don't distribute archive files which extract lots of files into toplevel.
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20091125 20:36:31-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 1.7.9-1.8beta2 *maybe* planned for tomorrow | string/feature freeze active! | 75 bugs, 248 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091125 20:36:31-!- Topic set by wesbot [] [Wed Nov 25 00:21:14 2009]
20091125 20:36:31[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20091125 20:36:31[ _teddy         ] [ deekay ] [ giusef     ] [ shadowmaster] 
20091125 20:36:31[ AI0867         ] [ Doppp  ] [ Ivanovic   ] [ shikadibot  ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ AnMaster       ] [ dtiger ] [ kimhh_     ] [ Smar        ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ ardesh         ] [ erl    ] [ knotwork   ] [ Soliton     ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ Blueblaze      ] [ Espreon] [ lobby      ] [ stikonas    ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ boucman        ] [ esr    ] [ loonybot   ] [ Tigge       ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ CIA-55         ] [ ettin  ] [ loonycyborg] [ wesbot      ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ Crab_          ] [ fendrin] [ lukjad007  ] [ yann        ] 
20091125 20:36:31[ crimson_penguin] [ freim  ] [ Rhonda     ] [ zookeeper   ] 
20091125 20:36:31-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 36 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 36 normal]
20091125 20:36:42-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20091125 21:46:56< boucman> wesbot: seen alink
20091125 21:46:57< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick alink last spoke 16h 41m ago.  16h 41m ago they left with the message: Remote closed the connection
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20091125 21:59:40< Ivanovic> hi
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20091125 22:12:24< Espreon> wesbot: seen Chusslove ?
20091125 22:12:24< wesbot> Espreon: The person with the nick Chusslove 2d 9h ago they left with the message: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
20091125 22:20:15< CIA-55> boucman * r39949 /trunk/src/ (4 files): rework the animation parameters logic to avoid multiple useless parsing of WML fix bug 14824
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20091125 22:42:39< CIA-55> ivanovic * r39950 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-anl/cs.po wesnoth-units/cs.po): updated Czech translation
20091125 22:43:17< boucman> Ivanovic: do we have a new eta for beta 2 (no pressure, just wondering...)
20091125 22:43:37< Ivanovic> boucman: depending on local weather: maybe tomorrow
20091125 22:43:45< Ivanovic> in the afternoon that is
20091125 22:43:50< boucman> k
20091125 22:44:15< Ivanovic> (if the weather is good (as in "not raining like hell") i'll probably be out in the garden helping with the trees we chopped down...)
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20091125 23:12:31< fendrin> wesbot: seen mordante?
20091125 23:12:31< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 2d 2h ago.  2d 2h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: "Leaving"
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 26 00:00:51 2009