--- Log opened Wed Nov 04 00:00:05 2009
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20091104 03:26:35< Zarel> Aethaeryn: You there?
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20091104 04:08:12< Aethaeryn> Zarel: yes
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20091104 04:20:52< Aethaeryn> Just curious: does Fox News even *pretend* not to be Republican-slanted anymore? Their reporters are smiling as Republicans are winning elections, and last year for the Obama election the reporter who called it looked *so* sad.
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20091104 05:21:40< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Okay, now are you still there? :P
20091104 05:23:30< Aethaeryn> Zarel: no :P
20091104 05:23:39< Zarel> lol
20091104 05:24:02< Aethaeryn> I actually was afk for a long while between my last message and this.
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20091104 05:26:39< Zarel> Meh, I lost my stuff.
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20091104 05:28:39< Aethaeryn> Zarel: huh?
20091104 05:29:04< Zarel> Oh, I was going to talk to you about something I wrote several months ago, but now I can't find the file. :/
20091104 05:32:08< Aethaeryn> oh
20091104 05:44:02< Zarel> Aethaeryn: btw, the answer is hyperinflation
20091104 05:44:24< Aethaeryn> Zarel: I was thinking about that...
20091104 05:44:30< Aethaeryn> That the currency would be devalued because there'd be more of it.
20091104 05:44:58< Zarel> Yeah, that's the only drawback.
20091104 05:45:03< Zarel> But it's a pretty huge drawback.
20091104 05:45:10< Aethaeryn> Eh...
20091104 05:45:24< Aethaeryn> Go into more details?
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20091104 05:47:02< Aethaeryn> What if the government was really, *really* disciplined in its spending?
20091104 05:47:52< Zarel> Erm, then either you still get way too much inflation, or it's the equivalent of collecting 0 taxes in the first place?
20091104 05:48:44< Aethaeryn> Okay, how about this... what if the government doesn't just print more money...
20091104 05:49:05< Aethaeryn> But what if a government called a one-year tax holiday to stimulate the economy? I mean, we're so much in debt anyway, it doesn't matter, right?
20091104 05:49:16< Zarel> lol
20091104 05:49:29< Zarel> Now that's not a question I know how to answer.
20091104 05:49:38< Aethaeryn> If you can spend into debt, and there's clearly no critical limit, why not just spend into a LARGE amount of debt with the intention of stimulus?
20091104 05:49:45< Aethaeryn> You can pay most of it back the next year since the economy would be booming.
20091104 05:50:13< Aethaeryn> At least, you'd collect more in taxes in year 2 (the year after the holiday) than you would in year 2 without a tax holiday for year 1
20091104 05:50:30< Zarel> Well, there's not a hard limit, but spending into debt is generally worse and worse for you.
20091104 05:50:47< Zarel> cf. Zimbabwe.
20091104 05:50:57< Aethaeryn> Zimbabwe doesn't stop the US.
20091104 05:51:07< Aethaeryn> Zimbabwe has had other factors involved, the US is a strong and big country.
20091104 05:51:36< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Are you sure?
20091104 05:51:58< Zarel> I mean, are you sure that you'd collect enough taxes to make it up? I don't think it would really be a _doubling_ of booming economy.
20091104 05:52:08< Aethaeryn> Has hyperinflation ever happened in a strong country, btw?
20091104 05:52:19< Aethaeryn> I'd hardly call post-WWI Germany a strong country...
20091104 05:53:05< Zarel> No, strong countries generally aren't that stupid.
20091104 05:53:25< Zarel> More importantly, they have enough GDP to prop themselves up.
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20091104 05:55:50< Aethaeryn> okay, afk for food
20091104 05:56:01< Aethaeryn> feel free to page me again if you find what you were going to tell me
20091104 05:56:21< Aethaeryn> Though I do think you might actually double revenue in certain circumstances.
20091104 05:56:31< Aethaeryn> Depends on the details... 
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20091104 06:46:13< Zarel> noy: This is why arguing with them doesn't work. :(
20091104 06:46:31< noy> heh, true
20091104 06:46:37< noy> though he looks like an idiot
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20091104 07:09:55< noy> Zarel: that was a bit harsh... Its just that I make pretty clear points and its like they don't get it. Thanatos understood the thrust of what I was saying, he doesn't
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20091104 10:28:00< noy> Zarel: still up?
20091104 10:28:10< Zarel> Yes.
20091104 10:28:16< noy> new post for your pleasure
20091104 10:29:24< noy> edited the post because of the editing error
20091104 10:29:25< Zarel> :)
20091104 10:31:29< noy> did you already read it?
20091104 10:32:04< Zarel> Have now.
20091104 10:32:59< noy> seriously, it was one of those stupid arguments that was dressed up to make it seem as if it was really smart. 
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20091104 10:40:12 * Zarel nods
20091104 10:40:22< Zarel> Not much else to say about it.
20091104 10:43:13< noy> I reworked in the pizza comment from above
20091104 10:43:22< noy> This isn't to say that everything the state does is right and we should bow down to fealty. True liberty in my mind is awareness that allows individual to find a balance between positive and negative conceptions of liberty; it enables individuals to self realize the goals they want with an appropriate level of restrictions to keep them secure. 
20091104 10:43:23< noy> What constitutes secure is completely contestable concept. What constitutes Fraud? or bodily harm? These aren't simple topics that can be neatly explained by using pizzas as an example. And they shouldn't be arbitrarily established by one individual or a select few. 
20091104 10:43:38< noy> and with that I should go to bed
20091104 10:44:56< Zarel> 'Night.
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--- Log opened Wed Nov 04 11:50:50 2009
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20091104 11:51:00-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | wesnoth.org | http://addons.wesnoth.org | latest stable version: 1.6.5 | latest development version: 1.7.7 | public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com
20091104 11:51:00-!- Topic set by Ivanovic [] [Sat Oct 24 20:27:00 2009]
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20091104 17:20:23< Ivanovic> hi
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20091104 20:43:00< noy> Aethaeryn: seriously I don't need a history lesson on athenian democracy...
20091104 20:43:49< noy> especially on a one line comment about its very general aims, rather than any specific aspect of its nature. 
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20091104 20:44:40< noy> and if anything my comment was intended to be comical. It almost makes me wonder if you actually read things for its content, or just to score points for personal satisfaction.
20091104 20:45:50< Aethaeryn> It just really, *really* bothered me, that's all.
20091104 20:46:00< Aethaeryn> The United States is *not* a democracy, it's a republic.
20091104 20:47:36< Aethaeryn> The one paragraph vs. five means that that thing is more intended as a footnote to my post, not as an actual argument.
20091104 20:48:08< Aethaeryn> Feel free to ignore it.
20091104 20:48:16< ardesh> Aethaeryn, nope..
20091104 20:48:22< noy> Uh, yeah, it is a democracy
20091104 20:48:22< ardesh> its a 2party-tyranny
20091104 20:49:26< noy> If you want to use a narrow specialist terminology and claim that it isn't sure, go ahead and claim that.
20091104 20:49:58< noy> But thats not what is the widely excepted view of what democracy consists of.
20091104 20:51:17< Aethaeryn> The majority of people can be wrong. :P
20091104 20:51:39< noy> Uh, even the experts would disagree with you on that. 
20091104 20:52:12< zookeeper> -.-
20091104 20:52:22< noy> on the definition of democracy
20091104 20:52:45< noy> because republic would not be a sufficient term regardless. You can have a republican government that is a tyranny
20091104 20:53:17< ardesh> ya
20091104 20:53:41< ardesh> but it cant be a democracy... because noone except the government decides on wheter to pass/initiate/something a law
20091104 20:54:20< noy> and republic could refer to athenian democracy as well.  
20091104 20:54:36< noy> uh, why can't it be a democracy?
20091104 20:55:03< ardesh> as i stated... the regular people cant make any real decisions
20091104 20:55:35< Aethaeryn> noy: America is not a democracy in the classical sense, it is a democracy in the sense that its definition has been changed over the years since it entered the English language...
20091104 20:55:37< ardesh> the only country i know of... which could be called democratic is switzerland
20091104 20:55:42< Aethaeryn> So we're both right.
20091104 20:56:05< Aethaeryn> You're right in the dictionary definition while I'm right in the original definition.
20091104 20:56:24< noy> ... so why even post in the first place. 
20091104 20:56:27< Aethaeryn> My rant was not aimed toward you regarding improper usage but rather toward the English language for morphing the original usage of the word.
20091104 20:56:30< noy> I know what you meant right off the bat
20091104 20:56:53< ardesh> Aethaeryn, freedom is slavery
20091104 20:56:54< noy> its still a silly comment to make because you're actually adding nothing to the discussion except to be a distraction.
20091104 20:56:54< ardesh> XD
20091104 20:57:10< noy> on your first point I'll make a nice long post for you
20091104 20:57:16< Aethaeryn> noy: I guess you're right.
20091104 20:57:28< Aethaeryn> I made that post because it made me feel better, and it was a bit hijacking.
20091104 20:57:45< Aethaeryn> It's a rant, but ironically it's shorter than the rest of the post :P
20091104 20:59:33< Aethaeryn> In that case, sorry, I was nitpicking. The rest of my point stands.
20091104 21:01:12< zookeeper> noy, no matter how many times i read what you think true liberty is, i can't understand what the first bit is supposed to even mean
20091104 21:01:38< noy> which first bit?
20091104 21:01:43< zookeeper> "true liberty is awareness that allows ..."
20091104 21:02:07< Aethaeryn> noy: Oh, and I do hope you solve the problem raised in my post, because that's the biggest issue I have with the federal government. :)
20091104 21:02:10< noy> Its a state of mind I think. 
20091104 21:02:20< zookeeper> oh, right
20091104 21:02:32< noy> zookeeper: give me a second to write it out
20091104 21:03:13< zookeeper> all right
20091104 21:03:42< zookeeper> anyway, i don't see what the difference between "enables individuals to self realize the goals they want with an appropriate level of restrictions to keep them secure" and "the absence of any external obstacles" is supposed to be really.
20091104 21:03:57< zookeeper> the former is just a fancy way of saying the same thing as the latter
20091104 21:04:37< noy> it is, except that my point includes individual understanding of the trade offs one's society makes 
20091104 21:05:20< noy> and thats a critical point
20091104 21:06:04< noy> There has to be some level of rules and organization that allows you to carry out what you consider as your basic rights
20091104 21:06:23< noy> Freedom to live without violence and persecution
20091104 21:06:45< zookeeper> yeah, and violence and persecution are external obstacles
20091104 21:07:22< Aethaeryn> noy: I really do understand your argument. About how the government gives you freedom by providing stability to society.
20091104 21:07:32< Aethaeryn> As in: You're not very free if you're murdered.
20091104 21:07:52< Aethaeryn> Society isn't able to progress if blood feuds of personal family-oriented vengeance is the way to address murder.
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20091104 21:08:13< Aethaeryn> He killed your brother? Kill his brother. Cycle continues indefinitely.
20091104 21:08:54< noy> zookeeper but one could argue that the ability to use violence and coersion is your right as well
20091104 21:09:14< noy> or deception (to take something greyer)
20091104 21:09:18< noy> grayer*
20091104 21:09:25< Aethaeryn> Basically, the need for a centralized and impartial criminal justice system.
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20091104 21:09:57< Aethaeryn> It is *very* easy to argue against anarchy or extreme libertarianism.
20091104 21:10:19< Aethaeryn> The trick is where to draw the line if you agree (like most people) on some sort of balance.
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20091104 21:10:53< Aethaeryn> But since I agree with you, I only replied to the argument as it relates to healthcare. After all, agreements make a very short Debate Camp thread.
20091104 21:11:18< zookeeper> noy, no i couldn't, because it'd be silly
20091104 21:11:33< zookeeper> i doubt anyone in that thread would either, so that's rather irrelevant anyway, no?
20091104 21:12:08< noy> zookeeper: thats because you're the product of a society which has ingrained those views into your head. 
20091104 21:12:21< Aethaeryn> It's hard to argue for crimes-with-victim. It's easier to argue for victimless-crimes-not-being-crimes.
20091104 21:12:45< noy> If you were raised in Khost, Afghanistan what you believe is acceptable is far different. 
20091104 21:13:24< noy> you're governed by Pushtunwali, the Tribal code, where Badal, or revenge is an accepted part of life
20091104 21:13:24< zookeeper> so?
20091104 21:13:38< zookeeper> so would you. what does that have to do with anything?
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20091104 21:14:54< noy> ... I'm directing refuting your point that the two views on liberty are not the same, because having no external obstacles means anything you want to do goes
20091104 21:15:15< noy> or is acceptable, because you want to be free.
20091104 21:17:08< zookeeper> you're saying that the critical difference between the definitions of liberty of you and that some other guy is individual understanding of a point that both of you agree on
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20091104 21:18:14< zookeeper> and now you're saying that it's somehow relevant that a random afghan would not agree on that point
20091104 21:18:51< Aethaeryn> noy: Of course, some views of liberty are more correct than other views.
20091104 21:19:06< Aethaeryn> Just because some people believe some ways, doesn't mean that that way is ideal.
20091104 21:19:51< zookeeper> that "anything you want to do goes" thing applies to the random afghan, not whoever you were arguing with in that thread, right?
20091104 21:19:51< Aethaeryn> This reminds me of The Godfather where Michael Corleone returns to his homeland of Sicily and there's literally no young men in the towns because they've all killed each other in vendettas.
20091104 21:20:02< Aethaeryn> Clearly, some things are simply not ideal for a stable society.
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20091104 21:20:57< Aethaeryn> That's a reason why there's laws: to force people who might hold to a view that is unhealthy (for example: killing all unbelievers is okay since they're going to hell anyway) to not go through with their views or face consequences.
20091104 21:22:15< Aethaeryn> If the primary role of the government is to provide a stable society in which its citizens can prosper, there needs to be a criminal justice system, and there needs to be some freedoms like freedoms of speech and ideas.
20091104 21:22:15< noy> Aethaeryn: I never disputed that point; thats why I pointed out Democracy as a system of reconciliation of views
20091104 21:22:45< noy> zookeeper: no, I never said there has to be some agreement. 
20091104 21:22:54< Aethaeryn> Anyway, you know a system works by its fruits. Plenty of things work on paper but not in practice...
20091104 21:23:06< Aethaeryn> If a country has a basketcase economy, they're doing *something* wrong.
20091104 21:23:51< noy> I mean complete agreement, liberty in my mind is the understanding of what you get and give up and how that makes your life better
20091104 21:24:19< noy> I'd hazard to say most people never think they achieve true liberty.
20091104 21:24:36< noy> its an ideal that can never happen. 
20091104 21:25:19< noy> Negative liberty on the other hand I can easily provide for you; anarchic societies
20091104 21:26:35< zookeeper> ...in anarchic societies you're free from interference by other people?
20091104 21:26:41< Aethaeryn> Oddly enough, when it comes to political science, much of the basic principles can go back to Aristotle, such as moderation.
20091104 21:26:45< zookeeper> i don't think i'd agree with that.
20091104 21:27:10< Aethaeryn> Too many freedoms, and you wind up having none. Too few freedoms, and people cannot prosper.
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20091104 21:36:55< noy> zookeeper: basically I think you viscerally agree with my point, but can't understand the first point
20091104 21:37:24< noy> the opposing view of liberty as that to be free of any encumbrances by a state body
20091104 21:38:23< noy> zookeeper: go back and read joram's point, thats what I'm talking about. 
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20091104 21:43:54< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20091104 22:05:04< Aethaeryn> noy: Just curious, what is your day job?
20091104 22:05:12< noy> Policy researcher
20091104 22:05:35< noy> mostly foreign policy but I'm curious enough to read about as much as I can get my hand on
20091104 22:05:45< Aethaeryn> You do sound well-read.
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20091104 22:07:22< Aethaeryn> noy: May I inquire for whom you do research?
20091104 22:07:39< noy> a university in Canada but thats temporary
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20091104 22:09:06< Aethaeryn> Policy as in public policy (government)?
20091104 22:10:00< noy> yes
20091104 22:10:16< Aethaeryn> Ah, interesting.
20091104 22:10:44< noy> I had a very good series of professors in political philosophy as well so thats why I can write about it 
20091104 22:11:07< Aethaeryn> For a while, politics was my area of interest, but it's turned to broader philosophy lately.
20091104 22:11:47< Aethaeryn> I've become disillusioned with the two-party system.
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20091104 22:15:11< [Relic]> what's the second party?
20091104 22:15:44< [Relic]> if you can handle your booze, a two party system is great, as long as you don't get a dui  :)
20091104 22:22:01< noy> Aethaeryn: there are virtues with the two party system
20091104 22:22:08< noy> its not as bad as you might think it is
20091104 22:23:30< [Relic]> only have 2 people to blame, all the crooks are label by party :)
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20091104 22:24:06< noy> yeah but it forces consensus positions, which sometimes is better than more fracturous systems
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20091104 22:31:53< noy> Aethaeryn: post is u[
20091104 22:31:55< noy> p
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20091104 23:00:17< Aethaeryn> noy: Good point.
20091104 23:05:39< Mythological> by using that logic, a single party system would be even better....
20091104 23:06:54< Aethaeryn> noy: I'd argue something different for a two party system other than forces a consensus.
20091104 23:07:03< Aethaeryn> Rather, it produces moderation.
20091104 23:07:25< noy> thats a better word for it
20091104 23:07:57< Aethaeryn> In a one-party system, there's no check. In a multi-party system, the parties are more radical (vs. "big tent").
20091104 23:08:17< Aethaeryn> Of course, politics of the past 5 or so years might prove me wrong about the whole moderation thing.
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20091104 23:08:38< Aethaeryn> So the parties moderate within, and they check each other.
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20091104 23:55:52< happygrue> anyone know the default path to maps made with the map editor on a Mac?
--- Log closed Thu Nov 05 00:00:49 2009