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20091106 02:36:19< noy> Aethaeryn: enjoying the conversation in users?
20091106 02:38:08< Aethaeryn> noy: in off-topic?
20091106 02:38:14< noy> heh, yeah
20091106 02:38:51< Aethaeryn> I understand what Joram is trying to say. He is just doing a really bad job arguing it.
20091106 02:39:08< noy> its not an argumentation problem
20091106 02:39:42< Aethaeryn> I understand libertarianism somewhat, I just don't think *he* understands it.
20091106 02:39:43< noy> I've marked enough badly written essays to know exactly what he's saying
20091106 02:40:40< noy> a rights based argument basically raises the question; what are those rights?
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20091106 02:41:00< noy> because even if you believe in a dead constitution, its not clear what they are
20091106 02:41:11< noy> there are contradictory statements
20091106 02:41:19< Aethaeryn> Of course. The Constitution is a compromise.
20091106 02:43:05< Aethaeryn> It's the problem with using Founder's Intent to interpret the Constitution: they all had different opinions.
20091106 02:43:23< noy> of course
20091106 02:43:44< noy> and they accepted that a government existed
20091106 02:44:07< Aethaeryn> The sad thing is, I could explain his view better than he's explaining it.
20091106 02:44:27< Aethaeryn> He's arguing libertarianism the wrong way.
20091106 02:44:44< Aethaeryn> By attacking government altogether.
20091106 02:44:51< noy> absolutely.
20091106 02:44:56< Aethaeryn> The key to libertarianism is *limited* government.
20091106 02:45:16< Aethaeryn> In which case the best argument against health care is that it expands the role of the government too far.
20091106 02:45:21< Aethaeryn> He's arguing way too selfishly.
20091106 02:45:31< Aethaeryn> "I don't want it, I don't need it, and why should I pay for it?"
20091106 02:45:40< Aethaeryn> "This is why you should pay for it..."
20091106 02:45:42< noy> thats absolutely the case
20091106 02:45:52< Aethaeryn> And he repeats the circle.
20091106 02:46:56< Aethaeryn> Here's an example of a libertarian argument:
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20091106 02:47:34< Aethaeryn> "The 'War on Drugs' is unconstitutional because there is precedent that to ban a substance federally you need a constitutional amendment: look at the prohibition."
20091106 02:48:05< Aethaeryn> Extremely simplified into one sentence so you can probably poke holes, but I'm not going to spend 30 minutes writing a libertarian point of view just to prove that he's arguing it the wrong way.
20091106 02:48:49< Aethaeryn> A libertarian isn't an anarchist, they just want a pre-New Deal government.
20091106 02:49:29< Aethaeryn> A libertarian would see the New Deal, welfare, etc., as unconstitutional.
20091106 02:51:20< Aethaeryn> Personally, my view on the government is to do that which people cannot do by themselves... in other words, people won't just spontaneously put out fires, build armies to defend the country from attack, or pave roads.
20091106 02:51:31< Aethaeryn> It's just infeasible.
20091106 02:52:02< Aethaeryn> This guy somehow sees roads and firefighters as unnecessary, but the military as necessary.
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20091106 03:21:18< noy> Aethaeryn: see while I disagree with libertarians I think they have a useful view that can be helpful
20091106 03:24:12< noy> What I really don't like is when people think they know better start preaching like if I don't know or understand 
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20091106 03:51:56< Aethaeryn> noy: What do you mean?
20091106 03:52:23< noy> like joram... "you don't understand what I mean with unalienable rights!"
20091106 03:52:58< noy> uh, yes I do... 
20091106 03:53:40< Aethaeryn> Ah.
20091106 03:53:54< Aethaeryn> Right, but he's a little more extreme than libertarian I think.
20091106 03:54:05< Aethaeryn> Was he the one who claimed to be anarcho-capitalist?
20091106 03:54:14< noy> no
20091106 03:54:20< noy> that was zaimoni
20091106 03:54:24< Aethaeryn> I think libertarians would allow for things like fire departments and public roads.
20091106 03:54:30< Aethaeryn> At least, from my understanding of their philosophy.
20091106 03:54:39< Aethaeryn> Things that are simply impractical for private organizations to do.
20091106 03:54:56< Aethaeryn> You can't run a profit as a fireman: are you going to not put out the fire unless they pay up front?
20091106 03:55:54< noy> Well I think alot of libertarians subscribe to the idea of the hidden hand of the market
20091106 03:56:04< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091106 03:56:24< Aethaeryn> A lot of economists do, too.
20091106 03:56:38< noy> and subsequent discourses on the efficient market
20091106 03:56:50< Aethaeryn> A lot of things make economic sense that might not make political sense.
20091106 03:57:30< noy> thats pretty clear
20091106 04:01:56< Aethaeryn> Basically, it's pretty clear how to get an economic boom.
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20091106 04:02:04< Aethaeryn> It's not necessarily the best thing for the most people, though.
20091106 04:03:04< noy> if you ever want to read a really good deconstruction of the efficient market theory read this book:
20091106 04:03:13< noy> http://books.google.com/url?client=ca-print-perseus-basic_books&format=googleprint&num=0&channel=BTB-ca-print-perseus-basic_books+BTB-ISBN:0465043577&q=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465043577&usg=AFQjCNGhz0CoXOfu9zMa2iW3xUot6VM1BQ&source=gbs_buy_s&cad=0
20091106 04:08:42< NiveusLuna> i suggest tinyurl
20091106 04:14:29< Aethaeryn> or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465043577
20091106 04:14:33< Aethaeryn> which I was redirected to :P
20091106 04:15:49< Aethaeryn> noy: You see, the problem with politics is that there are often two (or more) perfectly logical positions with well-thought-out arguments that contradict each other.
20091106 04:16:18< noy> oh I agree 
20091106 04:16:26< Aethaeryn> Look at gun control vs. gun rights, for instance. Contradictory philosophies: you can't ban guns and give everyone guns at the same time. Yet, both argue that they reduce crime and have studies to back them up.
20091106 04:17:19< noy> Actually if there is anything that I think my best asset is that I am interested in the other side
20091106 04:18:11< noy> I think I wasn't the most well liked person in my class because I played the devil's advocate no matter what
20091106 04:18:25< noy> well...
20091106 04:18:32< noy> not no matter what... I often played it
20091106 04:18:38< Aethaeryn> I agree. The best way to win an argument is to know more about their argument than they know about their argument.
20091106 04:19:16< noy> But at the same time I think there is a reasonably objective truth that one can point at
20091106 04:19:51< noy> that you can predict what an policy's outcome might be if you're astute
20091106 04:20:08< noy> what you see about health care isn't that
20091106 04:20:21< noy> and maybe its an issue that is too large to make an effective prediction
20091106 04:20:50< Aethaeryn> I agree.
20091106 04:20:53< Aethaeryn> Too many factors.
20091106 04:21:19< Aethaeryn> In economics, you have to separate all the variables and assume ceteris parabis, kinda like in physics.
20091106 04:21:39< Aethaeryn> There's too many variables involved with something as broad as "health care"
20091106 04:21:41< noy> Ive always seen my job as an art
20091106 04:21:52< noy> sometime the canvas is just too big
20091106 04:21:56< Aethaeryn> The only way to *actually* know many tricky political things is observation.
20091106 04:21:58< noy> and just too abstract
20091106 04:22:18< Aethaeryn> The only way to know if a policy works or not is hindsight, and even then both sides will claim success for themselves and failure for their enemies :P
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20091106 04:37:45< Aethaeryn> noy: reading it back over again, the guy does seem stupid to assume that you are ignorant in the field of public policy. :P
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20091106 11:23:21< Ivanovic> moin
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20091106 19:02:20< Aethaeryn> [Aethaeryn(+ei)] [8:#Wesnoth(+n)] [Lag: 250.20]
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20091106 20:14:37< grand_grunt> Hi, free gamers! :)
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 07 00:00:06 2009