--- Log opened Mon Nov 30 00:00:24 2009
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20091130 00:29:59< Aethaeryn> Anyone up to playing a few maps on 1.7.9?
20091130 00:30:35< Aethaeryn> By testing I mean playing since both of these I consider largely complete unless I see a major balance issue.
20091130 00:33:25< Aethaeryn> I'm probably going to be up for the next 6-8 hours or so getting a few good replays in. As usual, last minute for the contest. :P
20091130 00:33:34< Aethaeryn> Fortunately, these maps have been complete for over a year.
20091130 00:37:07< Aethaeryn> brb, dinner and finishing compiling
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20091130 01:26:41< sakuraischerry> hi there
20091130 01:30:08< Aethaeryn> Anyone want to play a game on 1.7.9?
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20091130 03:32:12< Blarumyrran> :o
20091130 03:32:22< Aethaeryn> :o
20091130 03:32:40< Blarumyrran> I'll optimistically assume the lobby is so ugly just because everything is broken, and it will be fixed in next release?
20091130 03:33:12< Aethaeryn> if by the next release, you mean 1.10 :P
20091130 03:33:21< Blarumyrran> 1.8-beta3
20091130 03:37:36< Aethaeryn> the lobby is very broken though, yes.
20091130 03:37:50< Aethaeryn> I ran into about 4 bugs in beta1, but they all got fixed
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20091130 05:01:09< Zarel> I wonder if scrollbars have been fixed in 1.7
20091130 05:04:14< VurtualRuler98> Scrollbar fixes in an open source game are as likely as windows being good for development, or macs taking up any major market share.
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20091130 05:09:08< mathstuf> what's wrong with the scrollbar?
20091130 05:12:19< Blarumyrran> The lobby scrollbar scrolls to the top each time someone says something
20091130 05:13:34< mathstuf> ah, im still using 1.6 day-to-day
20091130 05:13:38< mathstuf> i have 1.7 here
20091130 05:13:44< mathstuf> haven't seen this lobby yet
20091130 05:14:03< Aethaeryn> too many people are still using 1.6
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20091130 06:14:41< Cyber_Rock> Ipsilon: are you here?
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20091130 06:46:18< andrewtrapani> Simple Question: On Wesnoth 1.7, what is the path the add ons get put in? It used to be ~/Library/Preferences/Wesnoth_1.6
20091130 06:46:59< mathstuf> ~/.wesnoth1.7 on linux
20091130 06:47:07< mathstuf> by default
20091130 06:47:20< andrewtrapani> does not exist
20091130 06:47:43< mathstuf> was ~/.wesnoth1.6 for be in 1.6
20091130 06:47:48< Vornicus> andrewtrapani: on Mac?
20091130 06:47:49< mathstuf> *me
20091130 06:47:53< andrewtrapani> Correct.
20091130 06:48:15-!- andrewtrapani is now known as MCP`
20091130 06:48:29 * Vornicus goes looking.
20091130 06:51:26< Vornicus> ...I don't actually have 1.7 installed.  whups
20091130 06:51:40< MCP`> Yea I've had a search up but it found nothing so far
20091130 06:51:48< MCP`> I installed a few add ons, verified it said they were installed
20091130 06:51:53< MCP`> but it cannot find any of them
20091130 06:52:36< Vornicus> "it" being Wesnoth, or your searches?
20091130 06:52:47< Aethaeryn> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EditingWesnoth#Where_is_my_user_data_directory.3F
20091130 06:53:16< MCP`> Wesnoth has them, search is well, searching
20091130 06:53:49< MCP`> That's it
20091130 06:54:05< MCP`> ~/Library/Application Support/Wesnoth_1.7
20091130 06:57:16< MCP`> Can anyone send me wml lint for the latest dev release?
20091130 06:58:01< Espreon> MCP`: Would a bleeding edge version of wmllint be all right for you?
20091130 06:58:07< MCP`> Yes
20091130 06:59:18< MCP`> last time I ended up downloading the source code, which I didn't need
20091130 06:59:29< Espreon> MCP`: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/tools/wmllint?rev=40009
20091130 06:59:55< MCP`> thank you
20091130 07:00:04< Espreon> You are welcome.
20091130 07:02:47< MCP`> ah oops
20091130 07:02:50< MCP`> I need more files to run it
20091130 07:03:27< MCP`> I bet the .app actually has all of these
20091130 07:04:05< MCP`> great so the OS X package has all the wmllint files
20091130 07:29:38< Blarumyrran> Aethaeryn, had to quit - I started getting cpp errors
20091130 07:29:53< Blarumyrran> Wesnoth doesn't like its faults being brought up :>
20091130 07:30:02< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: new messages don't show for me anymore
20091130 07:30:16< Aethaeryn> after it resized a second time to have space for maybe four games on my huge monitor
20091130 07:30:18< Blarumyrran> Uh. forgot to screenshot the message.
20091130 07:30:28< Aethaeryn> and I get a random artifact.
20091130 07:30:34< Aethaeryn> in the middle of chat, a rendering problem.
20091130 07:31:14< Aethaeryn> oh, now they showed up, hooray lag
20091130 07:31:35< Aethaeryn> and through all of this, no errors in the terminal I'm running Wesnoth from.
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20091130 07:32:43< Aethaeryn> oooh, and I found a rendering problem for large screen resolutions.
20091130 07:33:00< Aethaeryn> in the main menu though
20091130 07:33:37< Aethaeryn> the tip box and menu buttons instead of being on the bottom and bottom right respectively are hanging out in the middle, although the map image in the background itself is resized.
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20091130 07:34:27< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: I really don't like that map, btw. You're right in that it looks worse (in terms of decorative, background, not in terms of utility) each revision.
20091130 07:34:40< Blarumyrran> Hum
20091130 07:34:42< Blarumyrran> which one?
20091130 07:34:52< Aethaeryn> I think Wesnoth is the only game I've played that uses a map (that's more useful in actual campaigns, where it's also used) as the game menu
20091130 07:34:55< Blarumyrran> I don't think I've ever said that
20091130 07:34:57< Aethaeryn> looks rather amateurish
20091130 07:35:00< Aethaeryn> I think you said that.
20091130 07:35:04< Blarumyrran> Aaah that map
20091130 07:35:06< Blarumyrran> Yes.
20091130 07:35:17< Aethaeryn> Some thread had old revisions of the main menu map from 1.0 and 1.2 and now and you said it looked worse each time
20091130 07:35:39< Blarumyrran> Mhm
20091130 07:35:49< Blarumyrran> But all were done by Kestenvarn, I think
20091130 07:35:56< Aethaeryn> Anyway, some really awesome, SVG or high-resolution picture would be better.
20091130 07:35:57< Blarumyrran> I have no idea why he went like that
20091130 07:36:10< Aethaeryn> I don't mind the map. It's very functional. It just doesn't look good.
20091130 07:36:20< Blarumyrran> It will be hard to get a parchment texture for SVG
20091130 07:36:20< Aethaeryn> I'd much rather have something like kitty's portraits in the main menu.
20091130 07:36:30< Blarumyrran> The original had parchmenty texture, it looked great
20091130 07:37:14< Aethaeryn> idk, I really think something better than a map could be used.
20091130 07:37:21< Blarumyrran> I actually liked the map
20091130 07:37:23< Aethaeryn> I understand why a map was used back when Wesnoth's art was worse.
20091130 07:37:43< Blarumyrran> As in having the map as background - I just dont like the newer ones
20091130 07:37:51< Espreon> Hmmmmmm?
20091130 07:38:04< Blarumyrran> Espreon, hmmmmmmM!
20091130 07:38:29< Espreon> I see....
20091130 07:38:34< Blarumyrran> Aethaeryn, some httt story image was used once (before 1.0?)
20091130 07:38:52< Blarumyrran> httt story images are certainly good by modern standards too though
20091130 07:38:57< Aethaeryn> I actually remember that.
20091130 07:39:07< Aethaeryn> idk why, I didn't start until 1.2
20091130 07:39:23< Aethaeryn> Maybe I downloaded an older revision to check something or maybe I played Wesnoth before I got really into it.
20091130 07:40:08< fendrin>  I started with the first version that was anounced at the linux game tome on happypenguin.org. It realy sucked.
20091130 07:40:37< Blarumyrran> I started in summer 2006, dunno what version
20091130 07:40:45< mathstuf> i think i first discovered it 3-4 years ago
20091130 07:40:48< mathstuf> didn't get into it though
20091130 07:40:55< mathstuf> picked it up 2 months ago
20091130 07:41:03< MCP`> summer 2006 was 1.2 or 1.3
20091130 07:41:10< Blarumyrran> MCP, couldnt have been
20091130 07:41:21< Blarumyrran> 1.0 maybe.
20091130 07:41:22< fendrin> http://www.wesnoth.org/images/sshots/ancient-01.png Looked like that.
20091130 07:41:37< Aethaeryn> I think one of the reasons I like Wesnoth is that it actually updates.
20091130 07:41:40< MCP`> I was pretty sure fall 2006 was at least 1.2
20091130 07:41:47< mathstuf> yeah, i didn't play it that long ago :)
20091130 07:41:53< Espreon> fendrin: It makes my eyes burn!
20091130 07:42:06< Aethaeryn> I played Freeciv and it only had one major revision in appearance (And it was only appearance and some minor tweaks) during my time playing it, when they switched to ampilo as the default tileset.
20091130 07:42:28< Aethaeryn> I played Supertux, and iirc, they're still working on World 2, which will be the only major revision since I started playing it.
20091130 07:42:39< mathstuf> i don't like the highly imperialistic AI in freeciv :(
20091130 07:42:40< Blarumyrran> MCP, 2007-01-18	
20091130 07:42:46< Blarumyrran> http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/
20091130 07:42:47< Aethaeryn> Most open source projects progress really really slow and might as well never update at all.
20091130 07:42:54< Aethaeryn> I don't like the smallpoxing AI in freeciv.
20091130 07:43:17< mathstuf> allies come and plop a city in between your nicely spaced ones
20091130 07:43:17< Aethaeryn> I liked to build a tight-nit base of spaced out cities and not leave my island/region until relatively late tech
20091130 07:43:18< Blarumyrran> 2006-12-23 for source*
20091130 07:43:32< Aethaeryn> and every time I took over the AI area, they had too tight
20091130 07:43:37< mathstuf> yeah
20091130 07:43:47< MCP`> Hey, it was 1.1.6 
20091130 07:44:00< Aethaeryn> the most recent version I played 2 or so years ago with borders seemed to fix the whole AI-builds-in-your-territory thing.
20091130 07:44:02< MCP`> but they had the dev version 1.2
20091130 07:44:04< Aethaeryn> I liked the border thing
20091130 07:44:05< fendrin> Wesnoth develops very fast. Nevertheless some months ago a guy entered the chat and claimed that wesnoth hasn't made any progress the last few years.
20091130 07:44:12< Aethaeryn> MCP`: odd numbers are dev versions
20091130 07:44:16< MCP`> oh
20091130 07:44:22< Aethaeryn> it can be 1.0 with 1.1 or 1.2 with 1.3
20091130 07:44:28< Aethaeryn> I started with 1.2 and 1.3 
20091130 07:44:43< MCP`> okay then summer 2006 was dev version 1.1.6, 1.2 beta
20091130 07:44:47< Blarumyrran> fendrin, the game mechanics havent changed much
20091130 07:44:56 * mathstuf checks what fc5 had
20091130 07:45:06< Blarumyrran> MCP, I was on 1.0 I think. I'm not very dev person.
20091130 07:45:29< mathstuf> 1.2.4 was fedora 7
20091130 07:45:34< mathstuf> kokji doesn't know anything before that
20091130 07:45:36< mathstuf> *koji
20091130 07:46:10< mathstuf> i probably first encountered some early 1.2 version
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20091130 07:49:19< Aethaeryn> Fedora 7 must've been the Fedora I was using when I found Wesnoth then. Perhaps 6
20091130 07:49:50< fendrin> Blarumyrran: Right, but this person claimed that the graphic still sucks.
20091130 07:50:03< Blarumyrran> Relevant parts of it do
20091130 07:50:12< Blarumyrran> Like namely all the panels
20091130 07:50:34< fendrin> panels?
20091130 07:51:40< Blarumyrran> \data\core\images\themes
20091130 07:51:44< Blarumyrran> those things.
20091130 07:51:53< mathstuf> iirc, what i used looked very similar to today
20091130 07:51:54< Blarumyrran> And there is no engine to allow much better.
20091130 07:52:01< mathstuf> certainly not that screenshot posted
20091130 07:53:23< Blarumyrran> Also, in most games with unit trees - the unit trees look really lovely, in wesnoth they are like halfly implemented - unseen units are not shown to players, but there are no eyecandy actual unit trees given.
20091130 07:54:37< Vornicus> Well, the unseen units thing is vaguely sensible.  The first time through.  Well.  Not really.  But.
20091130 07:56:20< Aethaeryn> there is a visual unit tree, but only online
20091130 07:56:23< Aethaeryn> and not that good looking
20091130 07:56:28< Blarumyrran> Mhm
20091130 07:57:37< MCP`> :\ Darn, DotG didn't just convert up to 1.8 beta
20091130 07:57:42< MCP`> thanks for the help earlier
20091130 07:58:18< Vornicus> As for pretty printing, there's, like, fifty unit trees?
20091130 07:58:20< Espreon> MCP`: What's the problem?
20091130 07:58:28< MCP`> Many things
20091130 07:58:51< MCP`> the AI takes villages it should [avoid], when a hero dies he doesn't go to purgatory, just pops right back up in place.
20091130 07:59:03< Espreon> I see...
20091130 07:59:13< MCP`> I have to debug another time
20091130 07:59:57< Blarumyrran> Vornicus, ?
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20091130 08:00:59< Blarumyrran> Well, I guess very pretty unit trees are not possible
20091130 08:01:10< Blarumyrran> Actually I'm not even sure how the on-site ones work
20091130 08:01:34< Blarumyrran> I could have A advance to B and vice versa, would it generate them endlessy
20091130 08:03:39< fendrin> I thought about my next project for wesnoth after the new recruit/recall dialogs got in. Maybe it's some kind of character sheet with inventory that could also include a pretty unit tree.
20091130 08:04:09< Vornicus> There's 18 races in the official stuff; your average race has about 4 base critters.
20091130 08:05:01< Blarumyrran> Vornicus, what was that an answer to
20091130 08:05:04< Vornicus> so 73 distinct promotion trees.
20091130 08:05:17< Blarumyrran> And?
20091130 08:05:53< Vornicus> YOu can't exactly make it... well okay that's kind of a silly objection isn't it.
20091130 08:06:04< Blarumyrran> Oh are you assuming someone would actually manually _draw_ those trees?
20091130 08:06:49< Vornicus> (24 base units cannot promote; leaves 49 unit trees to draw.  Most are pretty simple0
20091130 08:07:22< Blarumyrran> Why would you draw them though
20091130 08:07:27< fendrin> Vornicus: I would code one method that is able to draw every unit tree possible.
20091130 08:07:47< Blarumyrran> Mhm
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20091130 08:08:08< Vornicus> I was going to say that you couldn't make a printable unit tree that has everything.
20091130 08:08:21< Blarumyrran> Why?
20091130 08:08:28< Vornicus> Cuz it'd be too big
20091130 08:08:33< Blarumyrran> Well, on A3 it would certainly fit
20091130 08:08:55< Blarumyrran> But I wasnt talking of printability before
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20091130 08:11:29< Vornicus> Yeah, but I kinda like feelies.
20091130 08:17:20< fendrin> Vornicus: A printable unit tree for every faction should be possible.
20091130 08:18:15< fendrin> And one for every unit with the portraits included could fit as well.
20091130 08:20:28< Vornicus> Have to lay it out at least partly by hand though
20091130 08:20:54< Aethaeryn> eh, you could print out units.wesnoth.org even
20091130 08:21:04< Vornicus> Heh
20091130 08:21:07< Aethaeryn> all you'd want is something more functional, better looking, and in-game
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20091130 08:21:12< Aethaeryn> which is rather ambitious
20091130 08:21:24< Vornicus> ...heh.  feelies for an open source game.  Man, I'm smoking the good stuff tonight.
20091130 08:23:39< Blarumyrran> Well, there are the T-shirts
20091130 08:23:47< Blarumyrran> That are quite dated
20091130 08:23:59< Aethaeryn> very much so
20091130 08:24:49< Aethaeryn> maybe I could make a (designed to be in-print-form) game manual out of a series of wiki pages if I ever get around to cleaning up certain parts of the wiki, such as the mess that is the campaign section
20091130 08:24:56< Blarumyrran> http://www.cafepress.com/wesnoth.7438359
20091130 08:25:12< Vornicus> ....'k
20091130 08:25:17< Blarumyrran> "Go! Go! Go!" is awesome
20091130 08:25:23< Aethaeryn> people'd have to settle for PDF though :P
20091130 08:25:30< Aethaeryn> I ain't mailing booklets to people
20091130 08:27:04< mathstuf> i hear LaTeX right? ;)
20091130 08:27:49< Blarumyrran> Wesnoth-themed latex suits?
20091130 08:28:02< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth-themed spandex suits
20091130 08:29:13< mathstuf> i need to find someone gullible enough to let me print out the pgf manual yet
20091130 08:29:52< Blarumyrran> My friend printed out a ~ 1000-page 3dsmax manual form pdf at uni
20091130 08:30:01< Blarumyrran> from*
20091130 08:30:09< mathstuf> its 8¢ a page here :/
20091130 08:30:13< mathstuf> b&w
20091130 08:30:21< Blarumyrran> sucks to be you, then
20091130 08:30:23< mathstuf> not sure what color is
20091130 08:30:30< mathstuf> high school was free though
20091130 08:30:37< mathstuf> but i didn't know about pgf then :(
20091130 08:30:46< Blarumyrran> I have no idea what that is
20091130 08:30:57< mathstuf> awesome drawing in LaTeX
20091130 08:31:54< Blarumyrran> Ii thought you misspelled pdf above there
20091130 08:32:16< mathstuf> http://www.texample.net/
20091130 08:33:18< mathstuf> http://www.texample.net/tikz/examples/
20091130 08:33:20< mathstuf> more direct
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20091130 08:50:18< Zarel> Hy, guys.
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20091130 09:31:58< natasiel> hi, someone willing to give me some guidelines on wml?
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20091130 09:33:18< fendrin> natasiel: what exactly do you need to know?
20091130 09:33:39< natasiel> fendrin: change the units side of a dead leader
20091130 09:33:48< natasiel> so far the event is fired
20091130 09:34:22< natasiel> I just dont know if i need to [store] the units
20091130 09:34:24< fendrin> use the MODIFY_UNIT macro
20091130 09:34:55< natasiel> do I need a kind of loop to cycle through all units?
20091130 09:35:33< fendrin> no, the macro will do that for you
20091130 09:35:50< natasiel> ah! thank you fendrin, I'll test it out
20091130 09:36:04< fendrin> natasiel: you are welcome
20091130 09:38:55< sakuraischerry> i can't understand "const std::vector<attack_analysis> &analysis = get_attacks();"(default/ai.cpp  line 892). Please tell me.
20091130 09:39:46< fendrin> sakuraischerry: ask the person called "crap" in wesnoth-dev. He may not be around at that time.
20091130 09:41:22< sakuraischerry> fendrin: ok, thank you. 
20091130 09:46:03< zookeeper> you sure you didn't mean "crab"? :P
20091130 09:47:11< fendrin> zookeeper, sakuraischerry: Yeah, sorry. I meant "crab".
20091130 09:52:24< natasiel> is there a way in wml to get the "$killer.side"?
20091130 09:53:10< natasiel> or "$last_attacker"?
20091130 09:54:22< fendrin> natasiel: Use a "die" event. In that event the dying unit is $unit and the killer is $second_unit. $second_unit.side should work for you.
20091130 09:55:06< natasiel> thank you again fendrin, that $second_unit is what I was missing :)
20091130 09:55:14< fendrin> no problem.
20091130 09:55:33< natasiel> I insist, thank you :P
20091130 09:59:51< Vornicus> sakuraischerry: well, judging from what I see there; get_attacks gives you a vector (STL array-oid) of attack_analysiss.
20091130 10:01:23< Vornicus> We then assign that vector to a reference named analysis; we're calling it const because we know we won't need to modify the attack analyses.
20091130 10:01:30< Vornicus> Idunno what else there is to say about it.
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20091130 10:30:30< sakuraischerry> Vornicus: ok. What is the size of attack_analysis? How do calculate attack_analysis?
20091130 10:34:48< sakuraischerry> Vornicus: I'm sorry but I partly logout. I'll come again soon,
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20091130 10:55:15< sakuraischerry> hi there
20091130 11:31:38< Ipsilon> Cyber_Rock sorry, i'm having a very hectic schedule lately. And the week after this one is finals week. Tell me your channel again, and what network it's on. 
20091130 11:38:42< Cyber_Rock> Ipsilon: my channel is ##cyberrock and it is on freenode
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20091130 17:45:20< Ivanovic> hi
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20091130 20:38:17< shadowmaster> crimson_penguin: I'm rewriting wesnoth-tc's png reader part, hoping to get it right this time and fixing some memory leaks I had not noticed before - hopefully I'll get this right before the end of this week.
20091130 20:39:13< shadowmaster> for version 2.0 I hope to find a library that will do this safely for me and leave the custom reader as a build-time option.
20091130 20:45:17< crimson_penguin> cool
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20091130 22:02:42< C_Bob> What would y'all think of an UMC "clutch" feature, that gradually improves/degrades single units' hit/dodge percentages based on their hit/dodge success rate?
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20091130 22:04:26< Ken_Oh> do you mean they would get better as they hit/dodge more or they would get worse (as an offset to balance)?
20091130 22:04:27< Soul_keeper> so if they are lucky they become more lucky ....   ultimately they are invincible 
20091130 22:04:37< Ken_Oh> (not balance, i meant luck)
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20091130 22:04:58< C_Bob> Something like that, yes.
20091130 22:05:15< C_Bob> Only I'm thinking a 20% max, so they can't become unstoppable.
20091130 22:06:51< C_Bob> Right now, if you have a unit that seems to hit  a lot more than an otherwise identical unit, in similar circumstances, it's just luck; there's no technical factor that divides the two.
20091130 22:07:28< C_Bob> I'm thinking, though, that it'd be nice to experiment with making a UMC feature that actually does add in a technical factor to separate them, based on their previous success (or failures).
20091130 22:07:31< Ken_Oh> well, in a certain context, like an RPG or something, it could be cool, but basically you're increasing the effect of luck. while i think the place of luck in wesnoth is fine, i certainly don't think it needs to have a bigger effect.
20091130 22:08:09< C_Bob> Well, the idea is that the effect would be relatively gradual. And usually, since hitting and missing on about the same terrain will balance each other out, most units will generally stay about the same.
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20091130 22:08:55< C_Bob> But if you have a specific unit that seems to miss a lot more, here, there'd be a technical factor thrown in, to make that a real factor, worthy of concern, relating to that unit's performance.
20091130 22:09:02< C_Bob> And vice versa.
20091130 22:09:20< C_Bob> If someone seems to hit and dodge a lot better than the norm, that effect will be supported, over a long period of time.
20091130 22:10:32< Soul_keeper> wouldn't this idea just be a round about way of randomly giving units a certain "edge"  ie:  -20 to +20%  when recruited ?
20091130 22:11:13< C_Bob> Well, not really, because it is based on actual performance. I've seen some units of mine that "seem" to do better than the others, but I know that they really don't, because they're functionally identical.
20091130 22:11:20< C_Bob> And some units that seem to miss a lot when they ought to hit, etc.
20091130 22:11:48< C_Bob> The idea is that most units should be the same as they are now; maybe gain a clutch point or lose it every now and then, but they'll generally be the same as the 'stock' unit.
20091130 22:11:53< Soul_keeper> maybe you are paying too close attention :)
20091130 22:12:06< C_Bob> But if you have good luck with one unit, that has a better chance of persisting.
20091130 22:12:14< C_Bob> And if you have bad luck with another unit, that also has a better chance of persisting.
20091130 22:12:47< C_Bob> Probably so.
20091130 22:12:55< C_Bob> But it'd still be a nice effect to expand on.
20091130 22:13:50< C_Bob> It gives you a little more strategic control over your luck, and makes the units into more 'real' characters.
20091130 22:14:10< Soul_keeper> i'd hate to be the guy with the bum unit :/
20091130 22:14:42< C_Bob> Well, like I said, in most cases it shouldn't make much of a difference. The scheme I have in mind, for determining this, has a rather gradual effect, in general; it will take a lot of bad/good luck to balance a unit one way or another.
20091130 22:15:43< C_Bob> In theory, you can have +20% on hitting and dodging, but it will take a lot of consistent luck, over a long period of time, to get there.
20091130 22:16:05< C_Bob> It isn't incredibly useful, but it would still make things a bit more interesting, I think.
20091130 22:18:31< C_Bob> Unfortunately, while I'd like to try this concept out, and I have the basic dynamics of its implementation worked out, I believe, I don't have much in the way of the skills necessary to get it up and running.
20091130 22:20:58< C_Bob> I'll look into seeing if I can get it working, but it might be nice to get some advice, should my initial efforts fail.
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20091130 22:24:22< zookeeper> C_Bob, you might want to look into the lessluck era...it does something very similar
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20091130 22:25:49< zookeeper> also, instead of just changing the actual CtH of units, giving the units some other extra traits/whatever based on what they've actually succeeded in
20091130 22:26:13< zookeeper> ...might be more fun, if not as interesting strategically
20091130 22:26:57< zookeeper> as in, if you got an elvish archer who has killed three orcish grunts, maybe it could get some kind of an "orc killer" trait, giving it an actual bonus when shooting at orcs
20091130 22:27:32< zookeeper> or if a mage has often succeeded in dodging heavy melee hits, it could get an actual defensive bonus against melee attacks
20091130 22:28:39< zookeeper> of course you'd need to write a pretty big pool of possible perks like that
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20091130 22:32:37< zookeeper> i wonder how feasible it'd be to write a generic system for such perks, which could them easily be used in different UMC
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20091130 23:15:35< C_Bob> Well, the thing is that I'm not actually against luck; the system you implemented looks good, but I'm thinking that the bonuses/weaknesses would apply to specific units, and in less drastic fashion than 10% or so at a time.
20091130 23:16:14< C_Bob> If a unit appears to have a "hot hand", I'd like that to be reinforced, in the hard data, and vice versa.
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20091130 23:19:45< C_Bob> Over a long period of time, an elite Elvish archer who's had a lot of hits and dodges might have a 10 or 20% modifier.
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20091130 23:20:29< C_Bob> ...on the other hand, a similar Elvish archer that had much worse luck could have negative -10 or 20, so that if your life depended on a unit hitting, you would go to extra lengths to make sure it was the first unit -- or, failing that, anything other than the second.
20091130 23:21:15< C_Bob> Since they've shown, by their records, that, all things being even, they generally hit/miss more than the norm.
20091130 23:21:48< C_Bob> I'd say it keeps luck about the same; maybe even increases it a bit, since a bad streak of luck can lock a unit into that routine (and vice versa).
20091130 23:22:49< noy> So its better if we have a system that a player could game?
20091130 23:23:18< noy> Oh my Elvish archer has hit 15 out of the last 20 on 70%: Guess I should use another archer then"
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20091130 23:24:05< Appleman1234> hmm
20091130 23:24:58< Appleman1234> the rng isn't my friend today lol
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20091130 23:26:22< C_Bob> Sure.
20091130 23:26:43< C_Bob> Though remember that the entire system I have in mind is UMC; I wouldn't want to impose it on the standard game, naturally.
20091130 23:27:19< C_Bob> Though missed 15 out of the last 20 is probably better; 15 hits would seem to be a reasonable hit rate, to me.
20091130 23:27:28< C_Bob> 75% out of 100; slightly above average.
20091130 23:29:50< C_Bob> At any rate, it still would seem to be true to life; call it gaming the system, but that's how real-life commanders, coaches, etc. choose what people they're going to put into action.
20091130 23:30:04< C_Bob> All other things being equal, you go for the guy who's produced results.
20091130 23:30:27< C_Bob> Instead of the guy that could be good, but hasn't done anything significant so far (in spite of being given ample opportunity).
20091130 23:31:25< Blarumyrran> The Upgrade system already is something like that
20091130 23:31:44< Blarumyrran> advancement*
20091130 23:32:48< C_Bob> True, but this adds a little extra depth to the concept, and adds additional differences between units of the same level.
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 01 00:00:33 2009