--- Log opened Tue Dec 01 00:00:33 2009
20091201 00:06:00< CIA-62> fendrin * r40033 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/ (19_Costly_Revenge.cfg 22_Northern_Battle.cfg): LoW: Fixed several issues with the recall lists.
20091201 00:20:28< Crab_> fendrin: that trick with Landar worked ?
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20091201 00:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 249 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091201 00:35:09< fendrin> Crab_: yes, I believe to have fixed every issue with the few last scenarios.
20091201 00:35:23< Crab_> that's good
20091201 00:35:26< fendrin> That are recall list related.
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20091201 01:26:31< shadowmaster> Zarel: there's an [indent] bbCode on the forums now so you can stop abusing [list] to indent text at the expense of producing invalid XHTML
20091201 01:26:44< Zarel> lol
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20091201 03:25:59< mathstuf> alink: ping
20091201 03:26:14< alink> yes?
20091201 03:26:42< mathstuf> i was watching a replay and noticed that the game pauses on a side even if the side has no units to control
20091201 03:27:23< mathstuf> adding a unit_count(int side) to unit_map could help with this (check to see that there are units, otherwise skip that side's turn in the replay)
20091201 03:27:38 * alink doesn't really like replay stuff :-/
20091201 03:28:04< alink> how "a side has no units to control" happens ?
20091201 03:28:16< mathstuf> all their units get killed
20091201 03:28:44< mathstuf> when stepping per-side, the replay will stop on players with no units
20091201 03:28:48< alink> indeed i suppose that can happen :-)
20091201 03:29:03< mathstuf> making playing replays of 4p FFA games towards the end sort of annoying :)
20091201 03:29:12< alink> then indeed that seems a good idea to skip it
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20091201 03:29:39< alink> but there is probably already a function to get unit_count(int side)
20091201 03:29:59< mathstuf> yeah, that's my main question
20091201 03:30:06< alink> i check how we display the number of units in top bar
20091201 03:30:18< mathstuf> ah, true, I'll look there
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20091201 03:31:01< alink> side_units() seems to do the job
20091201 03:31:25< mathstuf> ah
20091201 03:31:28< mathstuf> thanks :)
20091201 03:31:33< mathstuf> I'll have a patch then ;)
20091201 03:33:14< alink> i wonder why side_units() is in unit.hpp and not team.hpp
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20091201 03:51:31< alink> Wow, i found a caching hack making the "initializing display" phase instantaneous when reloading in the same campaign/MP
20091201 03:51:51< alink> it will be some work to make it clean enough to be sure that it's safe, though :-/
20091201 03:52:45< alink> just a few lines but in complex areas
20091201 03:54:42 * alink has checked wesnoth on a Pentium2-400+windows today and that phase was really slow
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20091201 05:04:32< mathstuf> alink: have a (tested) patch
20091201 05:04:41< mathstuf> little messy with code duplication though :/
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20091201 05:50:33< alink> mathstuf: code duplication is bad
20091201 05:50:36< alink> mathstuf: code duplication is bad
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20091201 05:52:04< mathstuf> yeah
20091201 05:52:18< mathstuf> should i split the duplication out to another member function?
20091201 05:53:15< alink> no idea, depends of what you are doing :)
20091201 05:53:29< mathstuf> the patch is on gna
20091201 05:53:47< mathstuf> https://gna.org/patch/?1383
20091201 05:54:21< mathstuf> each chunk is similar to code just above it
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20091201 05:57:54< alink> this can probably be improved
20091201 05:58:56< alink> mmmh and, in fact, it's probably wrong
20091201 05:59:57< alink> the second while loop, doesn't  seems to loop on player 1
20091201 06:00:52< mathstuf> possible, i don't have a replay where player 1 loses all its units as i usually play player 1 ;)
20091201 06:00:57< mathstuf> i can make one tomorrow
20091201 06:01:12< mathstuf> the other one works though
20091201 06:01:26< alink> if last player has no units, player_number_ will be equal to teams_.size() intstead of 1
20091201 06:02:13< mathstuf> the second loop?
20091201 06:02:23< mathstuf> is it possible for all sides to have 0 units?
20091201 06:02:40< alink> ah yes indeed :)
20091201 06:03:13< alink> no i don't think it's possible
20091201 06:03:38< mathstuf> yeah, that was my thinking; each battle has 1 or 2 survivors
20091201 06:04:57< alink> still could be nice to have a more clear control on that variable
20091201 06:05:26< mathstuf> maybe a method that does "play through side"
20091201 06:05:45< mathstuf> all the loops would differ by then is the loop condition
20091201 06:05:52< mathstuf> and could be used above as weel
20091201 06:06:21< mathstuf> which has some extra code, but the same lines appear there
20091201 06:06:24< mathstuf> hrm
20091201 06:06:29< mathstuf> except the incrementing
20091201 06:07:10< alink> btw  there is already a block  "If a side is empty skip over it."
20091201 06:07:17< mathstuf> of course, maybe a method that just does "find next side with units"
20091201 06:07:30< alink> maybe just add your unit count there
20091201 06:07:35< mathstuf> first thing i tried
20091201 06:07:47< mathstuf> when its there, the replay fails
20091201 06:08:10< mathstuf> if you don't do the do_replay() and finish_side_turn(), things get OOS
20091201 06:08:24< mathstuf> when there's a real player there
20091201 06:08:30< mathstuf> even if it does nothing
20091201 06:08:47< alink> also you copied (2 times) the do_replay(player_number_) but not the init_side(), is it normal ?
20091201 06:09:32< mathstuf> without looking at the code, i think it does poison, villages, healing, etc
20091201 06:09:42< mathstuf> probably also movement set to 100%
20091201 06:09:49 * mathstuf looks closer
20091201 06:11:02< mathstuf> hmm
20091201 06:11:16< mathstuf> seems to do things indeed
20091201 06:11:38< mathstuf> but whether it matters in the replay when the turn is skipped anyways, i don't know
20091201 06:12:58< alink> it's always better to keep things simple and avoid special cases. So better continue to do it for empty team.
20091201 06:13:16< mathstuf> ok
20091201 06:14:03< alink> that is also why code duplication is bad
20091201 06:14:08< mathstuf> yeah
20091201 06:14:14< mathstuf> well aware
20091201 06:14:24< alink> you have 3 times the same block but with "little differences"
20091201 06:14:27< mathstuf> can move to a private or protected method as well
20091201 06:15:17< alink> I continue to think that such case should go with the "if (!current_team().is_empty())"
20091201 06:16:01< mathstuf> if it weren't for the OOS, id fully agree
20091201 06:16:35< mathstuf> but it seems the commands in the replay expect the turn to be ended with the "end turn" action
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20091201 06:18:33< mathstuf> the "is_empty()" tests whether there was a team there at all
20091201 06:18:55< mathstuf> if there isn't, there's no actions for the do_replay to act upon
20091201 06:19:05< mathstuf> i imagine that causes OOS stuff if its not there
20091201 06:19:16< alink> yes but it's almost the same thing
20091201 06:19:26< alink> anyway, i don't know well that part
20091201 06:20:50< alink> maybe move the empty team detection deeper into the do_replay to avoid the need to wait end_turn button action ?
20091201 06:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 249 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091201 06:21:45< alink> but i stop proposing random ideas. this kind of coding need testing to know what is best
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20091201 06:29:46< mathstuf> alink: comment added on the patch for further explanation
20091201 06:29:52< mathstuf> anyways, time for bed here
20091201 06:30:12< alink> ok goodnight, tx for the patch
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20091201 10:53:35< Ivanovic> moin
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20091201 11:19:11< sakuraischerry> hi
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20091201 18:25:05< fendrin> esr: This may become the new u'thurudor? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=395342#p395342
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20091201 18:56:56< fendrin> zookeeper: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=395341#p395341
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20091201 19:33:04< Sapient> o
20091201 19:33:08< Sapient> yo
20091201 19:33:53< Sapient> good news: finally got a new computer
20091201 19:34:27< Sapient> once I get all the files transferred over I can be a "real" developer again ;)
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20091201 20:33:53< mordante> servus
20091201 20:34:10< mordante> Crab_, what gui2 assert did you get?
20091201 20:39:43-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091201 20:40:09< Sapient> shadowmaster: I intentionally didn't lock the WML Syntax Change thread
20091201 20:40:36< Sapient> because I welcome anyone to point out items I missed or discuss my language if it is unclear
20091201 20:40:42< Ivanovic> hi Sapient
20091201 20:40:48< Sapient> yo Ivanovic
20091201 20:40:48< Ivanovic> cool that you got a new computer!
20091201 20:40:57< Sapient> hey, thanks
20091201 20:41:14< Ivanovic> already running irc from the new box?
20091201 20:41:14< Sapient> black Friday special
20091201 20:41:26< Ivanovic> if yes, please run /sysinfo
20091201 20:41:32< Sapient> ah, no, this is my work computer (I'm at work still)
20091201 20:41:37< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20091201 20:41:50< Ivanovic> right, in the US it is still some time in the afternoon
20091201 20:42:35< Sapient> alink: had a question for me? post it in the irclog if so
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20091201 20:43:25< Sapient> but it is Windows 7, 4GB memory
20091201 20:43:52< Sapient> should be a sufficient amount of RAM to satiate the linker now
20091201 20:44:34< Sapient> I may still install Ubuntu on it, but I will try out Win7 first
20091201 20:44:46< Sapient> seems like a nice OS so far
20091201 20:45:33< Sapient> and hey, Wesnoth still needs windows developers, right? ;)
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20091201 20:54:11< Crab_> mordante: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2ab6ed19
20091201 20:55:59< Crab_> mordante: perfectly reproducible, by attempting to select a list element in gamestate inspector. I guess that that is my favorite gui2 assert, triggering when too much data is put into a scroll label.
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20091201 21:21:06< mordante> Crab_, ah ok that one is known
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20091201 21:22:12< Crab_> note that, most likely, the size which is required to trigger the assert is different on different resolutions
20091201 21:23:07< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=395358#p395358 <- one thing has always bugged me about the poll, and since it was wiped to add iPhone, could you fix the issue I have with it?
20091201 21:23:32< Aethaeryn> That being that anyone who uses Ubuntu, SuSE, Fedora, any RPM-based distro, etc., has to choose "other" or "other website"?
20091201 21:24:02< Aethaeryn> (And yes, I realize Ubuntu and SUSE aren't RPM based, but I'm saying any RPM-based distro would be included on the list of distros not covered by the poll)
20091201 21:25:54< Soliton> SuSE isn't rpm based?
20091201 21:29:23< Aethaeryn> I'm not sure.
20091201 21:29:43< mathstuf> suse uses rpms
20091201 21:29:47< Aethaeryn> Tbh, I used SuSE once, years ago.
20091201 21:34:49< ardesh> uh
20091201 21:34:54< ardesh> suse is a strange distribution
20091201 21:35:20< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: I edited my link to include a proposed clean up of the poll (again, since the votes were cleared, it wouldn't hurt). Most of it is just reordering, adding .net/.com to some websites to be consistant, and adding Sourceforge and Gna.
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20091201 21:41:48< mordante> Crab_, yes I know, will have to look later, but post 1.8
20091201 21:41:59< Crab_> ok
20091201 21:48:56< mordante> I'm off now, bye
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20091201 21:52:48< Aethaeryn> Just curious: why are 1-player games allowed on the MP server?
20091201 21:53:31< Aethaeryn> Countless times, a newbie will disallow observers, play by himself against AI, and have it be a grindfest with lots of units per side on flat terrain. Does this not strain the server for no reason when they could be playing it locally?
20091201 21:56:21< Zarel> You have to realize that this is 2009.
20091201 21:56:36< Zarel> Pretty much nothing Wesnoth can do, network-wise, can "strain" a server.
20091201 21:58:09< Aethaeryn> idk, I've seen the MP server lag before, and I've seen the lag of the MP server lag the website before.
20091201 21:58:18< Aethaeryn> And by before, I mean contemporary with 1.6
20091201 21:58:29< Aethaeryn> Nothing will be as bad as the late 1.2/1.3 days though
20091201 21:58:47< Zarel> ...that's... weird.
20091201 21:59:03< Aethaeryn> Have enough people on any server, and you'll overload it.
20091201 21:59:42< Aethaeryn> My only concern is: if you're playing with yourself and do not have any observers (I have seen this happen before), what is the point of playing on the MP server at all, possibly providing lag during peak times to people who use multiplayer for... multiple players?
20091201 22:00:16< Zarel> Are you asking about the players, or the lobby design?
20091201 22:00:20< Zarel> Because the players might not know better.
20091201 22:00:44< Aethaeryn> Right, in which case, maybe the lobby should say, "Error: at least two players are necessary to play multiplayer" when you start up a game?
20091201 22:01:18< Aethaeryn> If you start with 2 or 3 and they disconnect, okay, that's understandable. But if you start with one player, even if you do this for the purpose of showing off, you could always just provide a replay at the end.
20091201 22:01:36< Zarel> ...yeah, that's what I'd call "horrible UI"
20091201 22:02:02< Zarel> The game should just automatically start a local game if you start a one-player observer-banned game.
20091201 22:02:03< Aethaeryn> It's just illogical to *start* a 1-player game in multiplayer, especially if I could start one with observers off and just play vs. AI as if it were hotseat for hours.
20091201 22:02:35< Zarel> Anything else, and I'll just launch into a tirade of "Computers are supposed to _do stuff for users_." A lot of people seem to forget that important point.
20091201 22:03:30< Aethaeryn> Yes, I just tested it. I can start a single player, observer-banned game in 1.7.9.
20091201 22:04:31< Aethaeryn> It happens more than you think. Most of the time it's an obscure era that no one has and thus no one joins rather than observers off.
20091201 22:04:55< Aethaeryn> There's one of those on the 1.7.9 server right now: no one can observe since it's an obscure era and it's only 1 person.
20091201 22:05:44< Aethaeryn> Of the 7 games on the 1.7.9 server, two are one-player games. It happens more than you think among newbies.
20091201 22:06:15< Aethaeryn> I often (on a stable MP server) see a game on a bad map or obscure era get created, wait about 3 minutes, and then start with just the host.
20091201 22:06:27< Aethaeryn> About 1/3 to 1/2 from experience seem to be observers off.
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20091201 22:07:13< Aethaeryn> If there were enough of these, it could in theory overload the server. In fact, one could probably maliciously exploit this by making a bot do this, and use many proxies.
20091201 22:09:44< Zarel> ...yes, that's called a DDoS.
20091201 22:10:01< Zarel> They're well-known for being impossible to prevent. ;)
20091201 22:10:26< Aethaeryn> Doesn't mean you should make it easy for them.
20091201 22:14:22< Zarel> I dunno, making observer-allowed games wouldn't exactly be much harder.
20091201 22:15:40< Aethaeryn> Well, I just don't like one-player games on the MP server. It clutters my list.
20091201 22:15:58< Aethaeryn> If the administrators think it's no big deal, perhaps a checkbox for "hide one-player games"?
20091201 22:16:28< Aethaeryn> I can think of a few legitimate uses of one-player games, such as to show you can beat scenario x by yourself to a group of observers who make sure you don't saveload.
20091201 22:16:36< Aethaeryn> Anything on the MP server prevents saveloading.
20091201 22:17:30< Zarel> Heh.
20091201 22:17:48< Zarel> Yeah, one-player no-observer games should automatically convert to local games.
20091201 22:18:11< Aethaeryn> yeah, just a not-that-necessary feature that'd be nice.
20091201 22:18:20< Zarel> ...no-observer games in general should disappear from the server list once they've been launched...
20091201 22:18:26< Aethaeryn> Maybe 0.1% to 1% are one-player no-observer games.
20091201 22:18:38< Aethaeryn> And yes, they should be filtered away by default.
20091201 22:18:46< Aethaeryn> Any game you cannot watch.
20091201 22:18:49< Aethaeryn> Even games with unknown eras.
20091201 22:19:02< Aethaeryn> That would probably 1/2 the size of the list.
20091201 22:19:14< Aethaeryn> Of course, you could uncheck the filter if you wanted.
20091201 22:21:15< Aethaeryn> I, for instance, don't care what games are going on in My-First-MS_Paint-Era
20091201 22:22:01< Aethaeryn> Tbh, no user made era is suitable for competitive play, and only about 1/3 to 1/2 are suitable for RPG/survival/special use.
20091201 22:22:32< Zarel> lol
20091201 22:22:53< Zarel> I just wish I had a multiplayer campaign that didn't try to be an RPG. :(
20091201 22:23:07< Zarel> I just want a normal campaign, except multiplayer!
20091201 22:23:54< Zarel> Do you know of any of those?
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20091201 23:23:12< Aethaeryn> Zarel: I was considering converting HttT into a MP campaign.
20091201 23:23:38< Aethaeryn> I have the ability, I have the ideas, but I just don't have the time to chase after every new idea that pops in my head.
20091201 23:24:43< Aethaeryn> Still, you could easily make it 2p. For the first 1/3 you could introduce some elvish captain character, and for the last 2/3 you could play as Li'sar.
20091201 23:24:43< Crab_> Aethaeryn: how you intended it to be, story-wise ?
20091201 23:25:03< Aethaeryn> You would have to introduce a character pre-Li'sar though since Delfador isn't consistantly there.
20091201 23:25:15< Crab_> Aethaeryn: isn't it better to try it with LoW ? it has 2 main characters already ( Kalenz & Landar )
20091201 23:25:25< Aethaeryn> Doesn't Landar turn evil or something?
20091201 23:25:36< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes. so, PvP at the end :)
20091201 23:25:39< Aethaeryn> Ah.
20091201 23:25:43< Aethaeryn> It's the very end?
20091201 23:26:34< Crab_> yes. there's 1 scenario where landar's henchman tries to assasinate Kalenz, (this one can be skipped or reworked in MP), and there's two battles of Landar vs Kalenz.
20091201 23:27:41< Crab_> e.g. if we skip 21_Elvish_Assassins.cfg, then 22_Northern_Battle.cfg will be a first battle, and '23_End_of_War.cfg' will be a 'second chance' for the loser.
20091201 23:28:06< Zarel> DiD could work the same way.
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20091201 23:28:35< Zarel> Although I'd prefer something where you stay allies the whole way through.
20091201 23:28:39< Zarel> Maybe rework NR?
20091201 23:28:43< Aethaeryn> Hmm, DiD is more solo.
20091201 23:28:45< Blarumyrran> Or you can just make a decent mp campaign
20091201 23:28:47< Aethaeryn> Liberty, though.
20091201 23:28:51< Blarumyrran> I dont think one exists
20091201 23:29:05< Aethaeryn> Liberty has two main characters the whole way, and no plot complications.
20091201 23:29:06< Crab_> Zarel: well, I think that PvP at the end is a good thing
20091201 23:29:08< Aethaeryn> And it's shorter.
20091201 23:29:19< Zarel> When you've been friends the whole time? :(
20091201 23:29:34< Aethaeryn> Crab_: idk, if you're playing 15 scenarios with your friend and then suddenly there can be only one winner?
20091201 23:29:56< Aethaeryn> I'd much rather have PvP in the beginning, and then some plot device for scenario 2 thru end uniting you
20091201 23:30:15< Crab_> well, you and your friend each built an army for 15 scenarios, and then, what's the best thing to do with it ? :) 
20091201 23:30:15< Zarel> If I wanted PvP, I would've played PvP... -_-
20091201 23:30:28< Zarel> It's like those movies where you grow up and train with a friend, and in the end your master is like "Okay, now kill each other."
20091201 23:30:42< Zarel> It might be fun to watch, but it's not fun to actually be one of those people. :(
20091201 23:31:19< Crab_> but, LoW is long. so, it's possible to make the last scenarios 'optional' - for those who want PvP.
20091201 23:31:33< Aethaeryn> I guess one of the reasons teams is okay is that a decent, but average player with an expert partner can actually play together.
20091201 23:31:44< Aethaeryn> In PvP, the said average player would be killed.
20091201 23:32:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: but, people are not obliged to play the last scenarios.
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20091201 23:32:23< Aethaeryn> That's very not satisfying.
20091201 23:32:33< Aethaeryn> The ending is the best part of any campaign.
20091201 23:32:58< Crab_> Aethaeryn: then there can be alternate, non-historical endings :)
20091201 23:33:00< Zarel> I think NR might be a good campaign to MP-ify.
20091201 23:33:09< Aethaeryn> idk, I wouldn't mind Liberty.
20091201 23:33:10< Zarel> The annoying part would still be that you'd both be humans.
20091201 23:33:15< Zarel> Unless your leader changed a lot, which could also be annoying.
20091201 23:33:29< Crab_> yes, it's better to pick a pair of different factions...
20091201 23:33:30< Aethaeryn> Liberty is short, unique, and fun.
20091201 23:33:45< Aethaeryn> Whatever happened to An Unnatural Winter?
20091201 23:33:52< Aethaeryn> That was a good scenario.
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20091201 23:34:27< Aethaeryn> You need something like a combination of humans, dwarves, and drakes for a campaign.
20091201 23:34:43< Crab_> or 'humans+elves' in HttT...
20091201 23:35:08< Aethaeryn> HttT is a bit too long/complicated.
20091201 23:35:25< Aethaeryn> Here's an interesting idea: turn HttT on easy difficulty into a PvP campaign.
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20091201 23:35:34< Aethaeryn> One player controls all AI sides, the other the human side.
20091201 23:36:06< Crab_> Aethaeryn: interesting :)
20091201 23:36:37< Aethaeryn> It might be harder for the Konrad-side at first, even on easy, but as they build up a recall list it would work out.
20091201 23:37:10< Aethaeryn> THe best part is that the computer challenger can change as the Konrad-team advances, and one side doesn't need a recall list and so has very different gameplay.
20091201 23:37:18< Aethaeryn> Besides, it shows what would happen if the AI had real brains.
20091201 23:38:21< Aethaeryn> One interesting tactic that would change the flavor of the scenario would be on Crossroads
20091201 23:38:27< Zarel> ...well, the human player would get crushed.
20091201 23:38:33< Zarel> Erm, I mean, Konrad-side.
20091201 23:38:34< Aethaeryn> You'd start with an army of orcs, that have hill-ambush
20091201 23:38:37< Zarel> Would get crushed.
20091201 23:38:44< Aethaeryn> I'm not sure about that.
20091201 23:38:48< Aethaeryn> Easy difficulty.
20091201 23:38:56< Aethaeryn> I think you forget how ridiculously easy HttT is on easy.
20091201 23:38:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: this will need a redesign of the campaign to get it right, but interesting idea, yes
20091201 23:39:06< Aethaeryn> But yes, certain scenarios would have to be rebalanced.
20091201 23:39:20< Zarel> I think you forget how much of the ridiculous easiness was due to stupid AI.
20091201 23:39:26< Zarel> Heck, imagine the first scenario.
20091201 23:39:29< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for example, 'HttT 1 is 'get konrad to specific hex' 
20091201 23:39:40< Aethaeryn> As I said, a few scenarios would have to have nerfed orcs.
20091201 23:39:51< Crab_> Aethaeryn: a good human opponent will make it a dawn hard thing to do..
20091201 23:39:51< Aethaeryn> A few might actually have to have the enemies be buffed up, though.
20091201 23:40:00< Crab_> Aethaeryn: how so ?
20091201 23:40:16< Aethaeryn> Well, a good human opponent will probably put his leader on the signpost.
20091201 23:40:23< Aethaeryn> And all the powerful units surrounding the leader.
20091201 23:40:29< Aethaeryn> And have Konrad come to him.
20091201 23:41:28< Blarumyrran> Isnt that ridiculous though?
20091201 23:41:50< Crab_> Blarumyrran: this is a viable tactics. I'll teach the ai to do this someday :)
20091201 23:41:58< Blarumyrran> I mean, the signpost is meant to be an abstraction of "this side of map is an exit"
20091201 23:42:01< Zarel> AI controls three orc leaders, all of which have a few L3 units even on Easy.
20091201 23:42:01< Zarel> I mean, sure, they're elves in a forest, but still.
20091201 23:42:14< Aethaeryn> Well, at the very least, this would be an interesting way to test out what an AI *should* do.
20091201 23:42:18< Blarumyrran> I doubt Konrad is schisophrenically trying to conquer the signpost :>
20091201 23:42:22< Crab_> Aethaeryn: droid the ai and try :)
20091201 23:42:40< Aethaeryn> In that, a good player playing as an orc could create tactics that could later be implemented in Formula AI.
20091201 23:42:41< Blarumyrran> It doesnt matter when AI plays the enemies and doesnt specifically protect the signpost
20091201 23:42:56< Blarumyrran> But it is weird if a human does
20091201 23:43:39< Crab_> Blarumyrran: this can be solved via changing objective to 'get konrad to northern edge of a map'
20091201 23:43:53< Crab_> Aethaeryn: btw, in 1.9, I plan to try to make it possible to play a different type of  MP campaigns - campaigns with a persistent gameworld - where individual games can affect the 'state' of the game world.
20091201 23:44:53< Aethaeryn> Well, I intended to do something like that for Thunderstone eventually.
20091201 23:45:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: this will allow for many interesting things, like MP campaigns where some scenarios are played individually
20091201 23:45:21< Blarumyrran> any plans for Thunderstone likely have an "eventually" as a suffix
20091201 23:45:35< Aethaeryn> A non-linear MP campaign, where you travel around via a space map to different worlds. Some random, some missions, some simply always-there.
20091201 23:45:37< Crab_> Aethaeryn: or 'world-of-wesnoth'-like campaigns..
20091201 23:45:51< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, such good things
20091201 23:46:52< Aethaeryn> So it would use a Wesband-like generator for random worlds, really fancy scenarios that advance the plot on predetermined maps, and certain maps you can revisit, probably friendly with shops and stuff.
20091201 23:47:37< Aethaeryn> By really fancy, I mean the scenario wouldn't actually end until you're done with the area and ready to go to the world map, even if the map changes to signify a new area.
20091201 23:47:38< Crab_> currently I'm thinking about doing this via hacking an alternate wesnoth client mode aka 'the gamemaster mode', which will, on-demand, 'generate' standard games on standard MP server and take the results of those games into account.
20091201 23:48:09< Aethaeryn> One thing I'd like to see with MP campaigns in the future: allowing players to branch off into their own scenarios.
20091201 23:48:28< Aethaeryn> For instance, in a 2p HttT, one takes the sea route and the other the land after Bay of Pearls.
20091201 23:48:59< Aethaeryn> Or even, more complicated, two players playing on the same worldmap (like in the campaign I just gave) but choosing different scenarios, that are part of the same world.
20091201 23:49:05< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I think that the way to do this is to separate the 'campaign' from the 'players playing the campaign'
20091201 23:49:12< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091201 23:49:58< Aethaeryn> One possibility would, using Wesband as an example, have multiple different scenarios to visit from the central town area you go between scenarios. This scenario would be persistant, and could have as many as 9 separate players on it as once...
20091201 23:50:21< Aethaeryn> But these players can join from the lobby or another scenario at any time, and can choose to follow each other into dungeons.
20091201 23:50:33< Aethaeryn> In other words, a psuedo-MMORPG, without the massive part.
20091201 23:50:35< Crab_> e.g. there will be a 'pseudo-player' managing the gameworld/gamemap (let's call it the Gamemaster, GM). so, 'one takes the sea route and the other the land after Bay of Pearls.'  will be handled by 'GM creates game1 for P1 on sea', and  'GM creates game2 for P2 on land'
20091201 23:51:12< Aethaeryn> But yeah, my point is to allow players to wander to different scenarios, there's a lot of possibilities.
20091201 23:51:21< Crab_> and then, after those games end, 'GM' updates his 'master save'  of the campaign and creates a new set of candidate scenarios
20091201 23:51:36< Crab_> the tricky part with this approach is multiplexing the GM's connection to MP server
20091201 23:51:56< Aethaeryn> Crab_: What do you think about the Wesband idea?
20091201 23:52:13< Aethaeryn> Basically treating multiple scenarios/maps simultaneously.
20091201 23:52:27< Aethaeryn> Allowing players to not necessarily be at the same place at the same time.
20091201 23:52:45< Aethaeryn> Maybe even not RPG-style, you could make a Total War-like world map for a MMOTBS.
20091201 23:53:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I think that it is a good thing :)
20091201 23:53:30< Aethaeryn> Ideally, I'd imagine a MMOTBS with real politics. In other words, using variables to have the world live without you being present.
20091201 23:54:05< Crab_> Aethaeryn: if we separate the 'GM' holding the gameworld info from the players, then the world will live without player's present.
20091201 23:54:07< Aethaeryn> So you'd have let's say 2 human kingdoms, an elf kingdom, and a dwarf kingdom, with some orcish barbarians, and the player could travel between the four kingdoms, do errands. Kind of a frame for a seemingly-random MP campaign.
20091201 23:54:14< Crab_> yes
20091201 23:54:39< Aethaeryn> So the actual kingdoms would go on without the player, and the player would build up armies and get support in the kingdoms, and then go on actual battles in stand-alone scenarios.
20091201 23:55:18< Aethaeryn> Let's say you do a mission for the north human kingdom, then you might have to fight the south human kingdom, and they won't let you do missions anymore. A basic kind of diplomacy system that shapes the course of your campaign.
20091201 23:55:34< Aethaeryn> You start neutral, but by choosing sides, you literally choose sides. If you help the elves, the dwarves hate you, etc.
20091201 23:55:48< Aethaeryn> That way, you could play the campaign 10 times and it would be different every time.
20091201 23:56:08< Crab_> yes. and you can play the campaign with many people.
20091201 23:56:25< Aethaeryn> Well, I'd start with getting it working as a single player game.
20091201 23:56:38< Crab_> Aethaeryn: i'd take other approach
20091201 23:56:52< Crab_> so far, all this can be done using existing MP server and existing wesnoth clients for players
20091201 23:56:56< Aethaeryn> Then I'd have a working proof-of-concept, which would be used to persuade certain developers to implement the MP functionality.
20091201 23:57:10< Aethaeryn> Anyway, I'd imagine it with a world map...
20091201 23:57:32< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I think that MP functionality for that is already *done*
20091201 23:57:33< Aethaeryn> I've practiced drawing maps on a world map scale, I've even done it in Aethaeryn's Empires as a playable map.
20091201 23:57:49< Aethaeryn> All I'd need to do is making travelling to a village put you in a predetermined scenario.
20091201 23:58:02< Aethaeryn> i.e. the city, camp, or mission.
20091201 23:58:13< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, an interface is needed to choose a 'next scenario' (next location)
20091201 23:58:29< Crab_> Aethaeryn: should this be an in-game interface ? or out-of-game (e.g. website) ?
20091201 23:58:48< Aethaeryn> I'd do it all through WML.
20091201 23:58:51-!- ilor_ [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091201 23:59:26< Aethaeryn> I'm a gradualist, I'd do a working 1p proof-of-concept and then add the more complex political elements (i.e. the kingdom scenarios changing while you're away based on random variables, and events that you don't do actually impacting your game)
20091201 23:59:52< Aethaeryn> The proof of concept would have the preset maps drawn, and then eventually also have a random generator for "dungeons"
--- Log closed Wed Dec 02 00:00:15 2009