--- Log opened Wed Dec 02 00:00:15 2009
--- Day changed Wed Dec 02 2009
20091202 00:00:15< Aethaeryn> It would probably use a pool of around 5 different maps for battles. i.e. if you fight enemy on a grass terrain, it would choose one of 5 different grass duels.
20091202 00:00:40< Aethaeryn> Most maps would be semi-random or fixed but changing over time... Only the dungeons would be full random.
20091202 00:00:47< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, those things are needed, too.
20091202 00:01:38< Crab_> Aethaeryn: how do you want to persist the gameworld state ?
20091202 00:01:47< Aethaeryn> In fact, I think I could draft up the most basic gameplay engine first. I'm thinking something along the lines of Age of Empires or another RTS: you can recruit only peasants, and they can build villages. You can upgrade or purchase units through villages.
20091202 00:02:43< Aethaeryn> So you build a stable for horses, a barracks for standard infantry, a tavern for outlaws, an elvish hut for elves, etc., and some of those buildings and units are off-limits based on your diplomacy with the kingdoms. You cannot please them all, either. Elves hate dwarves, loyalists hate outlaws, etc. It's a complex web.
20091202 00:03:08< Aethaeryn> And recruiting peasants are disallowed in the city maps, so you can only build up large armies in battle scenarios.
20091202 00:03:18< Aethaeryn> The political in-city scenarios would be more RPG-style.
20091202 00:03:27< Aethaeryn> Crab_: what do you think?
20091202 00:04:05< Aethaeryn> I do think it needs to be a tad more complex than standard Wesnoth just because of the very unique nature of it.
20091202 00:04:24< Aethaeryn> It would still move much faster than a traditional Wesnoth-style "building mod" as researching units to build would be unncessary.
20091202 00:04:36< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it sounds very good :) I have my own ideas about *how* to make it work in MP, but I agree with what you say.
20091202 00:04:39< Aethaeryn> Villages are just a simple way to segment different types of units you have access to.
20091202 00:04:53< Aethaeryn> In other words, if you don't get elves, you simply can't build the elvish building.
20091202 00:05:13< Aethaeryn> And if elves 100% like you, you could even get some goodies like elvish lords being recruitable.
20091202 00:06:01< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Now, about the persistant part, I was thinking lots of random variables.
20091202 00:06:22< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and how you intend to make it work in MP ?
20091202 00:06:28< Aethaeryn> In other words, if the economy is good, more villages will be added to the city and there will be a larger garrison, etc. If the economy is bad, villages will become abandonned.
20091202 00:06:46< Aethaeryn> So every time you come back, there would be a slighly different layout to the land.
20091202 00:07:04< Aethaeryn> Eventually, you may even attack the specific city for your preferred kingdom.
20091202 00:07:39< Aethaeryn> I think victory would be when the only AI side(s) left would be 100% liking you.
20091202 00:07:58< Aethaeryn> So if you side with elves, you conquer the dwarves, for instnace.
20091202 00:08:11< Aethaeryn> Crab_: How about the system you recommended?
20091202 00:08:38< Aethaeryn> Then one game of this could actually have more than one person on the same game, and they might go in totally different directions.
20091202 00:08:42< Crab_> Aethaeryn: the system I recommended is rather tricky, but it can be done in 1.9
20091202 00:08:47< Crab_> I'll explain
20091202 00:09:17< Aethaeryn> Ideally, players competing with each other or working with each other on missions would be fun.
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20091202 00:10:14< Aethaeryn> imagine logging on only to find out that Dwarves under the help of another player sacked your kingdom's capital.
20091202 00:10:19< Crab_> imagine that there's a separate instance of wesnoth called 'the game master (GM)'. one of the players launches the GM - thus, creating an instance of the specific campaign.  GM saves a 'master data file' for the campaign.
20091202 00:10:25< Aethaeryn> right.
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20091202 00:10:41< Aethaeryn> But would more than one map be allowed to play out simultaneously?
20091202 00:10:42< Crab_> then, GM consults that master data file and finds out, what scenarios should be created for the players at the moment
20091202 00:10:56< Crab_> then, GM connects to MP server and creates those scenarios
20091202 00:11:03< Aethaeryn> ah.
20091202 00:11:15< Crab_> then, the players connect and join those scenarios
20091202 00:11:23< Crab_> GM observes
20091202 00:11:30< Aethaeryn> I think that should be done best in-game.
20091202 00:11:48< Aethaeryn> In other words, you by default connect to a "world map" and then move on the specificly-labelled village to enter that scenario
20091202 00:11:50< Crab_> after scenario ends, GM updates his 'master data file'
20091202 00:12:12< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, it can be done via a web inteface/in-game interface/specific map/etc
20091202 00:12:47< Aethaeryn> I'd prefer not to go outside of the client (i.e. web interface)
20091202 00:12:56< Aethaeryn> It would be harder to find players that way.
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20091202 00:13:08< Crab_> as GM can update his 'master data file' on external events, or publish the contents of those master data file to web interface e.g. a map of the campaign and stats)
20091202 00:13:26< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, it's best to reuse existing channels.
20091202 00:13:50< Aethaeryn> Crab_: How about a persistant world?
20091202 00:14:17< Aethaeryn> i.e. being able to move to another map seemlessly.
20091202 00:14:17< Crab_>  that 'master data file' is  persistent
20091202 00:14:17< Crab_> it is 'the state of the world', which is independent from games currently played
20091202 00:14:51< Aethaeryn> What I mean is this: you basically tell the game that map x is to its right, and if they have the same width you basically move between maps without ever really noticing it.
20091202 00:15:02< Aethaeryn> *height
20091202 00:15:30< Aethaeryn> So you could have four different scenarios in a row, that simply start up provided there's a player that enters that domain.
20091202 00:15:44< Aethaeryn> Crab_: What do you think?
20091202 00:16:07< Aethaeryn> Basically being able to jump to another map without getting rid of the first one.
20091202 00:16:16< Crab_> Aethaeryn: with this approach, 'moving to another map'  requires exiting the current game and requesting the gamemaster to create the scenario for that 'another map'
20091202 00:16:25< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091202 00:17:18< Crab_> Aethaeryn: or, if the gamemaster sees that that 'another map' is already running and has free slots, it might tell the player to join that instead
20091202 00:17:18< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091202 00:17:19< Crab_> for best effect, make it possible to do it from plain WML.
20091202 00:17:28< Aethaeryn> So basically, as long as scenario X isn't full, you can enter that scenario instead of creating a new one.
20091202 00:17:53< Crab_> Aethaeryn: that should not be hardcoded - it's just a decision done by GM.
20091202 00:17:54< Aethaeryn> So if you go to Capital City and there's two people already on it, instead of creating a separate instance for you, it will put you on the map that's already in-play.
20091202 00:18:08< Aethaeryn> But you would have to go to it with all of your army and leave your current map.
20091202 00:18:11< Crab_> to avoid reimplementing the wheel, GM should be programmed in WML or WML+lua, of course.
20091202 00:18:15< Aethaeryn> Right?
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20091202 00:18:56< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Is that the functionality you have planned?
20091202 00:18:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, 'what should be done with army' can be determined by WML
20091202 00:19:04< Aethaeryn> Of course.
20091202 00:19:19< Aethaeryn> Either the army teleports or only the leader (and possibly heroes) and you have to recall the army.
20091202 00:19:23< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes. the main obstacle that I see now is 'how to multiplex connections to MP server?'
20091202 00:19:48< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Is there a hardcoded limit of 9 humans on one map?
20091202 00:20:04< Crab_> Aethaeryn: e.g. the GM will need 1 MP-server connection for each scenario he wants to host..
20091202 00:20:10< Crab_> at the same time
20091202 00:20:40< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I don't know. I know that a lot of places doesn't have the limit.
20091202 00:20:52< Aethaeryn> So basically if there's already 9 humans in one city, the 10th human would then start a new instance of the city?
20091202 00:21:19< Aethaeryn> It would be nice if there wasn't a true limit.
20091202 00:21:35< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, it doesn't matter much
20091202 00:21:42< Crab_> Aethaeryn: since wesnoth is turn based
20091202 00:21:44< Aethaeryn> I'm kind of liking this MMOTBS idea, though I do think that time-limits-per-turn would have to be set by the scenario.
20091202 00:22:06< Crab_> Aethaeryn: I think that it's better to have a specialized gui2 lobby for the campaign instance
20091202 00:22:08< Aethaeryn> So basically, if you only have 1 unit in the city areas, you only have 1 minute to move him around before your turn forces to end.
20091202 00:22:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: e.g. imagine that this 'capital city' is a themed MP lobby
20091202 00:22:33< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Idk, I like having a world map as a method of travel.
20091202 00:23:00< Aethaeryn> So your leader is on a hexes-are-miles-across map that shows the whole region of the game, and you go to a city to enter that scenario.
20091202 00:23:03< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, theoretically, we can put a button 'travel to..' in MP lobby
20091202 00:23:22< Crab_> Aethaeryn: or use a 1-player scenarios for such choices
20091202 00:23:41< Aethaeryn> Perhaps you travel via the world map in 1-player-scenarios, but one of these destinations actually exits you to the lobby?
20091202 00:23:52< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, that sounds good
20091202 00:24:05< Crab_> lobby is real-time, so it doesn't matter how many people are there
20091202 00:24:22< Crab_> e.g. 'a themed lobby channel for this instance of the campaign play'
20091202 00:24:33< Aethaeryn> So basically, when you "enter" the game you enter a local scenario, and then move to a village to enter a specific region...
20091202 00:24:47< Crab_> for example
20091202 00:24:49< Aethaeryn> And then that region is either created if no one is there or you simply join them if ithey are there.
20091202 00:25:08< Crab_> and then GM creates a map for you or sends a 'invite' to existing game
20091202 00:25:11< Aethaeryn> Obviously different travel methods could be used in a scenario, even just names on a list you access by right clicking.
20091202 00:25:17< Crab_> yes
20091202 00:25:26< Crab_> or GM chat-commands in the campaign lobby
20091202 00:25:33< Aethaeryn> But if you do it in a scenario, you can then code this joining scenario via WML...
20091202 00:25:36< Crab_> yes
20091202 00:25:39< Aethaeryn> And can be as fancy as you want.
20091202 00:26:04< Crab_> nothing prevents from handling chat commands via WML, too :)
20091202 00:26:21< Aethaeryn> Right. You could simply join via different buttons in the lobby.
20091202 00:26:30< Aethaeryn> i.e. "Join the Haunted Mine"
20091202 00:26:57< Aethaeryn> Then you enter the haunted mine dungeon with your army...
20091202 00:27:09< Aethaeryn> Randomly spawning AI in vacant areas could keep them constantly-full.
20091202 00:28:05< Crab_> Aethaeryn: remember the gameworld map which is displayed often in campaigns ?
20091202 00:28:18< Aethaeryn> The one that's the background?
20091202 00:28:27< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes. and patch markers
20091202 00:28:31< Crab_> s/patch/path
20091202 00:28:44< Aethaeryn> I don't know. I would much rather prefer this take place in its own continuity.
20091202 00:28:52< Aethaeryn> In other words, a different gameworld.
20091202 00:29:00< Crab_> no, I was about another thing...
20091202 00:29:01< Aethaeryn> Or a different time, such as the Old Continent.
20091202 00:29:32< Crab_> with enough work, I think that it's possible to code an interface for viewing campaign status and selecting 'next destination in a campaign' that will look like a 'some map with clickable markers on it'
20091202 00:29:42< Aethaeryn> Ah.
20091202 00:30:09< Crab_> make a gui2 widget out of it, and put a link to it in that 'themed lobby'
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20091202 00:31:10< Crab_> e.g. the lobby displays a list of games. you click on map location, and those list is filtered and contains: 1)existing games in that location in that campaign, 2) 'new game in that location in that campaign'
20091202 00:32:19< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091202 00:32:21< Crab_> after all, the lobby is a natural place 'to select the next scenario that you want to play with friends'
20091202 00:32:31< Aethaeryn> We would need certain constants, though.
20091202 00:32:42< Crab_> which constants ?
20091202 00:33:00< Aethaeryn> Well, in my idea, there would be diplomatic relations with each kingdom/faction/race.
20091202 00:33:30< Aethaeryn> So constant across many scenarios, there'd be a variable like elf_like=72 and dwarf_like=34 which means that the elves will let you recruit elves and the dwarves will be your enemy if you join the scenario.
20091202 00:33:57< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, remember we have the GM ? he has a 'file with master state of the game world'. so, all those constants will be there
20091202 00:34:06< Aethaeryn> And killing a dwarf will lower dwarf_like by 1 while raising elf_like by 1 or something.
20091202 00:34:41< Aethaeryn> So there'd be dwarf, elf, two human kingdoms, human outlaws, orcs, etc., all of which start neutral or very hostile to you, and who have different reactions to your actions.
20091202 00:34:45< Crab_> and, it's the GM who creates games and takes their results into account, so it's easy to modify those vars on certain events.
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20091202 00:35:27< Aethaeryn> recruiting an outlaw might -2 north_humans_like and -1 south_humans_like but +1 dwarf_like and +1 outlaw_like or something.
20091202 00:35:35< Crab_> whatever WML says :)
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20091202 00:36:35< Crab_> the main problem of such implementation is multiplexing GM's connections to MP server (he'll need 1 connect per each simultaneous game)
20091202 00:36:56< Aethaeryn> And we could have something like: 0-33 = war, 34-49 = neutral/poor, price doubled; 50-66 = neutral/good, price normal, 67-75 = good relations, slight discount, 76-90 = bonus unit, 91-100 = powerful unit
20091202 00:37:11< Crab_> but, if we start small and limit ourselves to "MP with 1 player" for now, this problem will be gone for now.
20091202 00:37:38< Aethaeryn> so you could recruit an outlaw if outlaw_like=40, but they'd be twice as costly, but if you recruit enough without bothering them, their price would go down eventually.
20091202 00:38:01< Crab_> so, as soon as 1.9 branches, it will be possible to try to prototype such a thing
20091202 00:38:12< Aethaeryn> Sometimes it might not be 'fair': orc_like could go up by one each recruit and you'd lose -3 elf respect or something. Or even -5 human/elf respect for undead!
20091202 00:38:38< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Do you like this kind of persistant system?
20091202 00:38:42< Crab_> yes
20091202 00:38:52< Aethaeryn> Besides your recall list, the actual price and attitude of intelligent beings would be affected.
20091202 00:39:15< Crab_> will a 'bunch of WML variables' enough for persisting ?
20091202 00:39:18< Aethaeryn> It would force you into certian combos like Undead/Outlaw or Outlaw/Dwarf, or Elf/Human, or Dwarf/Human, etc. because you simply can't have some combos, like orc/elf
20091202 00:39:22< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091202 00:40:14< Aethaeryn> Basically, what each race or humans (multiple factions for different humans, for instance) thinks of you stays constant, your recall list stays constant, your gold stays constant, your heroes/leader stay constant
20091202 00:40:33< Crab_> how do you want to write the logic for the evolution of the gameworld ?
20091202 00:41:14< Aethaeryn> Hmm, I haven't thought that out yet. I've mostly been thinking the player-side: how they'd recruit and what the factions would think as a result of their recruits, kills, or specific missions given by an AI faction.
20091202 00:41:46< Aethaeryn> All of it is rather simplistic on purpose...
20091202 00:41:55< Crab_> e.g. "if N hours passed, do that" or "if someone clicked this button on that web interface, do that" or "if someone sends me a chat message, do that..>"
20091202 00:42:31< Aethaeryn> Well, I think that the player should only be able to build villages and recruit in combat-active places. This is a city/village they're invading, a pitched battle/mission, or a dungeon.
20091202 00:42:55< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, but the gameworld can change even if no player activity takes place
20091202 00:43:03< Aethaeryn> And I think these villages should be abandonned when the player leaves.
20091202 00:43:31< Aethaeryn> In other words, if I build ten barrackses and a stable, you should be able to take it over as if they were unoccupied if I leave the map.
20091202 00:43:49< Aethaeryn> So I think the AI should function as if it were a player.
20091202 00:43:50< Crab_> Aethaeryn: so, that 'game master' will need a config, which will contain instructions about 'how to determine which scenarios are available', 'how to update the game world on player's victory or defeat', etc
20091202 00:44:10< Aethaeryn> Certain villages that are unoccupied for x amount of turns can turn to ruins (and ruins for x turns can go away)
20091202 00:44:31< Crab_> Aethaeryn: this is another interesting question...
20091202 00:44:55< Aethaeryn> If a player at war joins the map, they could actually spawn units on the village. If you're elf_like=25 (at war), the elf villages left by another player who is not playing this dungeon anymore should be a hostile AI side.
20091202 00:44:55< Crab_> question of 'time'
20091202 00:45:13< Crab_> imagine that there are two players which play two different maps
20091202 00:45:16< Aethaeryn> And if you take those villages, they're abandonned rather than going to you.
20091202 00:45:31< Crab_> one player plays faster than another
20091202 00:45:32< Aethaeryn> Ah, right.
20091202 00:45:36< Crab_> how do you intend to sync time ? :)
20091202 00:46:16< Aethaeryn> Well, time is an abstraction. If we randomize the decay of abandonned villages to a range, such as 7-15 turns to turn to ruins and after that 10-20 turns to disappear ruins...
20091202 00:46:34< Aethaeryn> Then it won't be as obvious that they're moving at different speeds.
20091202 00:46:56< Aethaeryn> Abandonned villages being villages built by a player that is no longer on that map
20091202 00:47:26< Crab_> well, the time that 'player that is no longer on that map' is measured in real hours :)
20091202 00:47:27< Aethaeryn> If no players are on that map, you can reset it and remove all villages, assuming that the villages were abandonned.
20091202 00:47:35< Crab_> not in 'turns'
20091202 00:48:00< Aethaeryn> Yes, decay might be better in real time, but it cannot change in the middle of a human turn.
20091202 00:48:10< Crab_> Aethaeryn: ah, you're about the case where there are other players remaining on map...
20091202 00:48:15< Aethaeryn> So if I'm taking 15 minutes to play and the timer went off at minute 11, the village shouldn't decay in the middle of my turn.
20091202 00:48:23< Crab_> then, yes, 'decay in X turns' might work
20091202 00:48:27< Aethaeryn> Ah, right.
20091202 00:48:58< Aethaeryn> I'd say maybe 30-75 minutes to decay a village to ruins, and after that 50-90 minutes to remove ruins.
20091202 00:49:05< Aethaeryn> And after all traces of the player is gone, reset map?
20091202 00:49:40< Aethaeryn> How about this: a home base for each player.
20091202 00:49:50< Crab_> maybe not 'reset', but 'serialize' - e.g. quit the map and store important info in the 'master gameworld state'
20091202 00:50:04< Aethaeryn> Nothing should happen to the home base when the player is not online, because that would be unfair. You shouldn't force the player to check the game every now and then or be penalized.
20091202 00:50:05< Crab_> no reason to keep the game open, if noone is in it
20091202 00:50:36< Crab_> Aethaeryn: 'Nothing should happen to the home base when the player is not online, because that would be unfair. You shouldn't force the player to check the game every now and then or be penalized.' - this is not true when there's 2+ players in the game world.
20091202 00:50:40< Aethaeryn> But villages, terrain modifications, and fortifications should not disappear from a home base secnario.
20091202 00:51:12< Aethaeryn> Crab_: What I'm saying is that ever player should have a base they can build up that won't change hands like the actual active fields.
20091202 00:51:25< Aethaeryn> So if you build 15 villages, it'll stay that way next time you log on.
20091202 00:51:35< Aethaeryn> And nothing will happen to it unless a player or computer attacks it while you're online.
20091202 00:51:36< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, possible, too. by 'serializing' I mean 'GM stores all important map info, GM quits the game'
20091202 00:51:42< Aethaeryn> A kind of "safe zone"
20091202 00:51:59< Aethaeryn> Crab_: what do you think about this base system?
20091202 00:52:23< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, this is definitly worth prototyping
20091202 00:52:26< Aethaeryn> I don't think players should even see it to be able to visit it unless the player is present (if not on the scenario, at least online and thus able to retreat to his base)
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20091202 00:53:02< Aethaeryn> So basically, the base area actually saves itself, and the only variable that changes on that map is the income.
20091202 00:53:22< Aethaeryn> So you'll keep giving the player income for having x villages in his base, but the base will be "invisible" until he logs back on.
20091202 00:53:43< Crab_> Aethaeryn: or until he *accepts* the challenge on his base.
20091202 00:54:03< Crab_> e.g. plays a 'defend the base' scenario
20091202 00:54:23< Aethaeryn> I'd say the base would serve three main purposes: providing a constant income since switching scenarios would otherwise have him lose control of the villages he built...
20091202 00:54:59< Aethaeryn> providing a base to play around with and have persistant constructions...
20091202 00:55:10< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, if player 'succeeds' in the scenario, it is possible to give him 'income' for it
20091202 00:55:16< Aethaeryn> and yes, providing a potential battlefield.
20091202 00:55:43< Aethaeryn> Random AI attacks from factions he's at war with, or even humans visting it and wanting to loot his money and capture parts...
20091202 00:55:46< Crab_> Aethaeryn: since, when GM wraps up this scenario, he can set a flag 'that area is controlled by player X, player X gets +Y income'
20091202 00:56:23< Aethaeryn> I think only certain areas should be occupy-able.
20091202 00:56:36< Aethaeryn> Dungeons, for instance, could give a one-time gold bonus for getting to the end.
20091202 00:57:07< Aethaeryn> It wouldn't make sense if you could capture Evil Crypt and occupy it and get income from it constantly.
20091202 00:57:08< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, that depends on WML. for example, it can be nice if a dungeon contained the label with the name 'YYY was here' at the end :)
20091202 00:57:29< Aethaeryn> It would make sense if you could raid Evil Crypt, get xp off of Undead-killing, and find a treasure chest at the end 
20091202 00:57:32< Crab_> Aethaeryn: or, if you're a necromancer, occupying an evil crypt can get you a constant income.. of skeletons :)
20091202 00:57:54< Aethaeryn> Right...
20091202 00:58:04< Aethaeryn> But if you're "incompatible" with the location, you should be able to sack a city or raid a dungeon but not have a continual presence there.
20091202 00:58:47< Crab_> Aethaeryn: well, also, depends on WML:) for example,a player might want to hire the ai to 'protect' the location against other players
20091202 00:58:53< Aethaeryn> Every dungeon should have at least one treasure chest that gradually builds up in gold contained and is heavily-guarded.
20091202 00:59:06< Aethaeryn> And yes, I would imagine that a continual presence would be AI-controlled.
20091202 00:59:17< Aethaeryn> You could just choose to take command of the AI if you are online and want to win. :P
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20091202 00:59:21< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes :)
20091202 00:59:53< Crab_> Aethaeryn: then, if we return to my earlier question about managing the changes to persistent info...
20091202 00:59:56< Aethaeryn> I do think that players/computers shouldn't be able to attack your base unless you're online, though.
20091202 01:00:28< Aethaeryn> If I'm out of town for two weeks, the last thing I want to see is that I lost all my gold and the base I've been building for a month based on two opportunistic newbies attacking a softened base after random orcish raids :P
20091202 01:01:06< Aethaeryn> If I'm raiding the Evil Crypt, however, it should be acceptable to have a message coming up that "X is attacking your base, retreat to defend it or let AI garrison defend it?"
20091202 01:01:23< Crab_> yes
20091202 01:01:49< Crab_> Aethaeryn: GM will need to deal with various events such as 'scenario Y completed by players X', 'scenario A failed by players X1 and X2', 'player S wants to move from L1 to L2', '1 real hour passed', 'player T asks which scenarios are available',..
20091202 01:02:01< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091202 01:02:02< Crab_> what is the best language to write such rules ?
20091202 01:02:11< Aethaeryn> I'm not sure.
20091202 01:02:20< Crab_> we can make it 'wml+lua'
20091202 01:02:24< Aethaeryn> It would have to store certain things for each player too:
20091202 01:02:40< Crab_> well, remember, GM has read-write transactional access to gamestate info.
20091202 01:02:51< Aethaeryn> basically all the faction_like=, the recall list, hero/leader info, gold amount, and the home base scenario.
20091202 01:02:54< Crab_> (info about the state of the campaign world)
20091202 01:03:02< Aethaeryn> I think that's all the variables necessary to remember.
20091202 01:03:28< Crab_> Aethaeryn: no, a lot of others, too - e.g. , diplomacy, quests, etc
20091202 01:03:35< Aethaeryn> Yeah.
20091202 01:03:45< Aethaeryn> But all of that would be foo=1 or foo=0
20091202 01:03:56< Crab_> yes, you said that WML vars are enough
20091202 01:04:02< Aethaeryn> save_the_princess=1, etc.
20091202 01:04:18< Crab_> "princesses_saved=38" :)
20091202 01:04:45< Aethaeryn> "princesses_lost_to_dragons=12" :(
20091202 01:05:16< Crab_> life is harsh sometimes 
20091202 01:05:59< Aethaeryn> Alright, well, I think the first step is implementing: the construction system, the recruit system, the recall system, and the AI_like system.
20091202 01:05:59< Crab_> yes, as it is not worth to load a MP game if one of the players screws up, it should be possible to continue playing the campaign on a loss...
20091202 01:06:05< Aethaeryn> As well as the home base.
20091202 01:06:27< Crab_> for now, let's stick with 1-player MP game
20091202 01:07:00< Aethaeryn> On loss: you'd keep your home base, all the units you did not recall at the time would still be on your list, the variables would persist.
20091202 01:07:22< Aethaeryn> Your leader would be weakened somehow (I'd assume that eventually we'd want your leader to advance RPG-style, like Kaleh in UtBS, so you'd lose some stats)
20091202 01:07:54< Aethaeryn> and you'd lose all the units that died, half your gold, and there'd be a 50% chance that a unit still alive in the defeated scenario "deserted" you.
20091202 01:08:07< Aethaeryn> (Heroes and loyal units excluded: they'd stay with you)
20091202 01:08:13< Aethaeryn> (as long as they lived)
20091202 01:08:20< Crab_> Aethaeryn: but, the first step is not 'implementning' those things..
20091202 01:08:56< Aethaeryn> Yes, the first step is getting the home base, era, and diplomacy working. Then the second step is actually giving you scenarios to travel to so that you *can* win/lose.
20091202 01:09:16< Aethaeryn> Then step three is adding the player-to-player interaction in the MP world (1.9-only), and then making it more complex
20091202 01:09:19< Aethaeryn> Sound good?
20091202 01:09:33< Aethaeryn> By diplomacy I'm talking about faction_like=
20091202 01:10:16< Aethaeryn> So you'd have a lot of different variables, which would affect the availability of buildings/units, the price of those buildings/units, and the hostility of a certain faction/race when encountered in-game.
20091202 01:10:33< Crab_> no, I think that before actually trying to do anything, it is needed to document the actual events which can happen with the campaign world
20091202 01:10:42< Aethaeryn> Yes, documentation is good.
20091202 01:10:53< Aethaeryn> As in, we need to detail each variable, and how they interact.
20091202 01:11:19< Aethaeryn> So we'd need to explain out which factions are available, and how you gain/lose faction_like= points with that faction.
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20091202 01:11:46< Aethaeryn> Successfully completing a quest from that faction would give you 10 like points. If your like is at 100, then instead of 10 like points, you need some other kind of bonus (free hero unit?)
20091202 01:11:54< Crab_> yes. to do this we will need a new class of WML (or lua) tags
20091202 01:11:59< Crab_> see http://pastebin.mozilla.org/687557
20091202 01:12:24< Crab_> some WML like that will be needed to specify events and write our reaction to them
20091202 01:12:43< Aethaeryn> right
20091202 01:13:02< Crab_> of course, existing WML can be used where appropriate (to read/write WML variables, etc)
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20091202 01:13:42< Aethaeryn> Both the outcome of scenarios as well as micro-events (sidequests that don't take up whole scenarios, kills of a specific race, and recruits of a specific race) need to affect the different faction_like= for instance.
20091202 01:14:08< Aethaeryn> For each of those undead you kill, you'll lose an undead_like point, unless it's already undead_like=0.
20091202 01:14:55< Aethaeryn> I guess, however, if you're at active hostilities (33 and below) they'll really start raiding your base, etc., but perhaps certain betrayal quests could come up to reverse this in case you want to join the Undead side, for instance.
20091202 01:15:43< Aethaeryn> In other words, since you can't recruit units you're in active hostilities with or get other easy like points, you'd have to do a certain quest if you ever want them to like you
20091202 01:15:44< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it can be done by using things like http://pastebin.mozilla.org/687559
20091202 01:16:03< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091202 01:16:40< Crab_> Aethaeryn: e.g. since with that paradigm we're talked about, games are created by GM, and GM is present in each game, then, it's possible to code a specific tag which will ask the GM to immediately modify some game world information.
20091202 01:17:02< Aethaeryn> Kill an elf and it could have the result of -3ing elf_like and +1ing dwarf_like, orc_like, undead_like, while not affecting the others.
20091202 01:17:30< Aethaeryn> So you'll lose relations with the elves way faster than it will help relations with others, but if orcs hate elves and you kill elves, orcs will respect you a little more.
20091202 01:17:31< Crab_> Aethaeryn: note, that, if done such way, such actions will have an immediate effect on the game world.
20091202 01:17:46< Aethaeryn> The actual effect would be to force you into certain combinations of units.
20091202 01:17:59< Crab_> by immediate i mean that it'll be possible to see them in parallel game (if we add a tag to query the GM, too)
20091202 01:18:01< Aethaeryn> or at least force you from having other combinations.
20091202 01:18:05< Aethaeryn> right.
20091202 01:18:22< Aethaeryn> I guess the first thing we need to do, before anything else, is work out this relationship.
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20091202 01:18:59< Aethaeryn> As in, what are the factions and which ones hate each other?
20091202 01:19:00< Aethaeryn> Then we determine which actions affect which relationships.
20091202 01:19:00< Crab_> for simplicity, we can start with 'persistence' only
20091202 01:19:02< Aethaeryn> And *then* we code it.
20091202 01:19:24< Aethaeryn> I'm thinking of splitting loyalists into two groups, with some overlap.
20091202 01:19:59< Aethaeryn> South humans would have different relation to factions as north humans.
20091202 01:20:14< Aethaeryn> And south humans would have cavalry and certain light infantry, while north humans would have no cavalry but more diverse infantry.
20091202 01:20:41< Aethaeryn> So we'd have south_humans, north_humans, and mages as distinct groups of humans.
20091202 01:21:05< Aethaeryn> As well as outlaws, undead (the necromancers control the monotonous opinions of undead, after all, so they're a type of human when it comes to this)...
20091202 01:21:41< Aethaeryn> Undead would really hate mages, and mages would really hate undead, so there's no way to have dark adepts and skeletons and mages under one banner.
20091202 01:22:42< Aethaeryn> So there's a faction and each faction can hate, dislike, be neutral, like, or love another faction.
20091202 01:23:13< Aethaeryn> Elves hate orcs, dislike undead and dwarves, are neutral to most humans, and like mages, for instance.
20091202 01:23:44< Aethaeryn> Of course, randomly based on the GM, they could shift one over. So by the end of the game, elves might hate dwarves and be neutral to undead, but they'll probably never hate mages.
20091202 01:23:51< Aethaeryn> Crab_: what do you think?
20091202 01:24:43< Crab_> I think that some resource-based economy (even if it is mechanics hidden from player's view) is needed to make those relationships go their natural way
20091202 01:24:43< Aethaeryn> So each attitude affects interaction. If you kill an elf and outlaws are neutral to elves, nothing will happen to outlaw_like. If orcs hate elves, orc_like might go up by 2.
20091202 01:25:12< Aethaeryn> Yes, but first we need the factions, the default starting relationships, and the whole relationship system.
20091202 01:25:17< Crab_> ok
20091202 01:25:18< Aethaeryn> Then we can implement ways to shift the relationships.
20091202 01:25:20< shadowmaster> and since Aethaeryn is around, I've been hilighted regarding the forums
20091202 01:26:01< Aethaeryn> For instance, if orcs only dislike elves, but you do an elf quest to destroy an orcish city, the orcs might now hate elves. Their relationship now shifted.
20091202 01:26:29< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: the "how did you find out about Wesnoth" thing is scheduled to be nuked
20091202 01:26:33< Aethaeryn> I'll see if I can put together a text file diagram of the different factions and their default relations to each other faction.
20091202 01:26:37< shadowmaster> so go cry in your corner now.
20091202 01:26:46< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes, but it needs a math-based backend to make it balanced
20091202 01:27:02< Aethaeryn> Right, but we first need to diagram out the relationships, then we can code it.
20091202 01:27:50< Aethaeryn> Remember, these relationships will be changeable eventually but even so they'll start certain ways. That way you don't wind up with results like necromancers liking mages.
20091202 01:27:59< Crab_> Aethaeryn: for c++ side of things, I guess that I'll start with implementing two tags, named something like [get_campaign_variable]  and [set_campaign_variable] - for setting and getting global per-campaign WML variables
20091202 01:28:30< Crab_> ( those variables will be persisted by the GM in that 'master campaign database' )
20091202 01:29:00< Aethaeryn> Right. From the concept side of things I'll write down some ideas and make some charts. And I'll do an era that does the construction/recruit/recall system.
20091202 01:29:44< Crab_> I think that it would be possible to do a alpha test of them with  thing like:
20091202 01:30:11< Crab_>  'game1 with players A and GM1', 'game2 with players B and GM2', WML event in game1 sets a variable, WML event in game2 reads its new value.
20091202 01:31:00< Crab_> (where game1 and game2 are both played in the same time)
20091202 01:31:00< Aethaeryn> Of course.
20091202 01:32:07< Aethaeryn> I'm starting to really like this idea
20091202 01:33:03< Crab_> but this is 1.9 thing..
20091202 01:33:12< Aethaeryn> Well, certain parts of it can be 1.8.
20091202 01:33:17< Crab_> although some coding is possible even now, yes
20091202 01:33:21< Aethaeryn> Such as the era that builds things.
20091202 01:33:38< Aethaeryn> From experience, it's easier to do something if half of it is already written. ;)
20091202 01:34:01< Aethaeryn> We'd just leave the harder part that's dependent on new C++ code.
20091202 01:34:21< Crab_> note that both the MP server and clients will be standard
20091202 01:34:32< Crab_> e.g. only the GM part will need to be hacked with
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20091202 01:35:10< Aethaeryn> hmmm... so far, these are the factions with separate opinions:
20091202 01:35:40< Aethaeryn> HUMANS: North Humans, South Humans, Outlaws, Mages, Undead (Necromancers); CIVILIZED: Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Drakes; MINOR: Saurians, Trolls, Woses.
20091202 01:35:59< Crab_> Aethaeryn: and, imo, you should track resources of those factions from the start
20091202 01:36:12< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Am I leaving out any races that are capable of forming a lesser faction?
20091202 01:36:36< Aethaeryn> Minor races are tied heavily to a civilized race. Woses will always love elves and vice versa, trolls will always love orcs and vice versa.
20091202 01:36:55< Crab_> merfolk ?
20091202 01:37:11< Aethaeryn> right, they might actually go under civilized races since I don't imagine them tied to another
20091202 01:37:31< Crab_> afair, they are lawful, so can ally with other lawful race
20091202 01:37:46< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091202 01:37:46< Crab_> or, they can ally *against* the nagas
20091202 01:37:57< Aethaeryn> Nagas are a minor race, though.
20091202 01:38:06< Crab_> also,  there are goblins
20091202 01:38:13< Aethaeryn> Right, goblins = orcs.
20091202 01:38:21< Aethaeryn> goblins don't have enough autonomy to form their own opinions.
20091202 01:38:38< Crab_> also, elves might have subfactions
20091202 01:38:39< Aethaeryn> kind of like how all the different kinds of undead do the bidding of the necromancer pov
20091202 01:38:54< Aethaeryn> hmm
20091202 01:39:08< Crab_> like faeries - their values are somewhat different from other elves...
20091202 01:39:18< Crab_> (faeries = shaman line )
20091202 01:39:33< Aethaeryn> the reason humans have so many different subfactions is (a) you are a human and (b) there are so many different humans.
20091202 01:39:47< Crab_> and, there's ogres and gryphons
20091202 01:39:48< Aethaeryn> though yes, I'll split elves into "normal elves" and "elite elves"
20091202 01:40:06< Aethaeryn> elite elves being shamans and lords/ladies
20091202 01:40:26< Aethaeryn> Ogres and gryphons aren't capable of complex politics.
20091202 01:40:36< Crab_> and trolls are ? :)
20091202 01:40:42< Aethaeryn> Technically, trolls are really borderline, but they're almost entirely tied to orcs.
20091202 01:40:57< Aethaeryn> still, I could imagine elves being neutral or dislike to trolls because they're a natural being.
20091202 01:41:07< Aethaeryn> And dwarves hating trolls but only disliking orcs
20091202 01:41:40< Aethaeryn> So basically elves hate orcs and neutral trolls while dwarves hate trolls and dislike orcs.
20091202 01:41:52< Aethaeryn> Even though trolls and orcs are a locked love relationship.
20091202 01:42:06< Crab_> Aethaeryn: note that the resistances of each race determine, to some extent, what races contest with each other
20091202 01:42:18< Crab_> s/resistances/terrain defence
20091202 01:42:32< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091202 01:42:39< Crab_> e.g. both dwarves and trolls are 'at home' in mountains, so it's natural for them to fight for them
20091202 01:42:47< Aethaeryn> I'm going to put together a .ods chart of starting relationships now.
20091202 01:43:03< Aethaeryn> basically column vs. row of each faction to express a relationship
20091202 01:43:26< Aethaeryn> it is bold if it's a locked love or hate relationship.
20091202 01:43:38< Aethaeryn> For instance, no factor should make dwarves like trolls or elves hate woses.
20091202 01:45:19< Crab_> Aethaeryn: when you document it all, and start programming, take into account the fact that some of the info will be 'global' info  - keep it in separate WML variables from 'local' scenario info.
20091202 01:45:42< Crab_> then, it'll be easier to translate the WML later
20091202 01:50:22< Crab_> since, basically, all that 'global info' will be persisted on GM's side and will be brought into scenario or out of it via specific wml tags
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20091202 03:59:28< alink> Sapient: it's ok, i planned to try interest you about some task, but when I started typing its description, i realized a simple, yet good enough, method how to do it.
20091202 04:00:11< alink> So, i coded it and now I just need to write some WML to test the limit cases.
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20091202 12:24:17< shadowmaster> ohh, nifty, I had not noticed before that the front page had a RSS feed.
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20091202 15:30:26< Ivanovic> hi
20091202 15:33:50< CIA-62> ivanovic * r40034 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Russian translation
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20091202 17:33:37< fendrin> Just splittet a thread on the forum which seemed to have worked well, if only I could find the new splittet one.
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20091202 17:39:37< fendrin> nevermind, the forum history helped me.
20091202 17:42:13-!- allefant [n=elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091202 17:49:24< fendrin> Any forum mod around?
20091202 17:51:13-!- Crab_ [i=crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091202 18:00:14< loonycyborg> fendrin: Yes. You :P
20091202 18:02:32< loonycyborg> That is we both are forum mods because we're developers.
20091202 18:03:40< fendrin> Right, I am just too stupid for what I need.
20091202 18:03:53< fendrin> And I don't want to mess up the whole forum.
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20091202 18:12:37< zookeeper> fendrin, what's the problem?
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20091202 18:20:47< fendrin> zookeeper: the last post here http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=391723#p391723 should be the first one in the thread. 
20091202 18:22:28< zookeeper> hrhm, are you sure that can be done at all?
20091202 18:24:48< fendrin> No am not
20091202 18:25:00< fendrin> maybe splitting and merging in the right order can archive that
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20091202 18:29:30< zookeeper> i have no idea
20091202 18:29:54< zookeeper> i'd think you can't change post order
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20091202 19:27:00< fendrin> zookeeper: are you going to fix the remaining transition problems before 1.8?
20091202 19:31:04-!- Crab_ [i=crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091202 19:32:07< zookeeper> fendrin, the castles<->chasm thing? i'm not sure, i took a look at it a while back and didn't really understand it well enough to come up with a fix
20091202 19:33:36< fendrin> zookeeper: no, castles<->forest and castles<->snow hills/mountains are strange
20091202 19:53:46-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20091202 19:53:49< CIA-62> alink * r40035 /trunk/src/ (map_location.cpp map_location.hpp tod_manager.cpp): Improve r40022 by using location ranges for saving ToD areas created by event
20091202 19:54:29< alink> who is UtBS's maintainer ?
20091202 19:55:30< Aethaeryn> Crab_: I made a spreadsheet based on some of the stuff we said yesterday if you want me to PM it to you on the forums.
20091202 19:55:49< Crab_> hi. yes, it would be interesting to look
20091202 19:56:02< Aethaeryn> Okay, I just realized the tables didn't have headings...
20091202 19:56:08< Aethaeryn> So one quick change then I'll send it.
20091202 19:56:13< Crab_> thanks
20091202 19:57:01< alink> there are scenarios in UtBS where the ToD areas are uselessly splitted in many different areas, instead on using only one range. This is also less good for cpu.
20091202 19:59:21< alink> ilor: btw, about the function "export selection to clipboard" (I just used it to debug/test my code, very handy, thanks)  Do you think it can be useful for WML writer to have the output using location range?
20091202 19:59:31< Soliton> i'm sure noone objects to making them one area then.
20091202 20:01:11< alink> Soliton: yeah, i suppose i can do it myself, I was just a bit lazy :-)
20091202 20:01:43< alink> plus it's a good test for my previous FR
20091202 20:02:31< alink> and, in fact, if not wanted for general use, i can just implement it locally for the task
20091202 20:07:22< alink> mmh, the current ToD areas are inaccurate, some outside hexes are marked underground without reasons
20091202 20:10:36< alink> ilor: other related idea/FR, allow to convert clipboard (or text input) to selection (the invert of the other operation)
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20091202 20:12:22< Aethaeryn> Crab_: .ods is not allowed as an attachment. Can you read a .gz?
20091202 20:12:30< Crab_> yes
20091202 20:13:28< Aethaeryn> Crab_: sent
20091202 20:14:00< Crab_> Aethaeryn: opened, thanks.
20091202 20:14:55< Aethaeryn> Most of the values are just proposed draft values. Only a few, like nagas always being mortal enemies with merfolk, are certain.
20091202 20:15:30< Aethaeryn> Trolls/Dwarves, Nagas/Merfolks, Drakes/Undead, and Mages/Undead are the two fixed enemy pairs that will never change.
20091202 20:15:36< Aethaeryn> *four pairs
20091202 20:17:03< CIA-62> ivanovic * r40036 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Updated Latvian translation
20091202 20:19:30< Aethaeryn> If you tweak the diplomacy numbers and the way opinion is modified for favorable/unfavorable actions, the result should basically be that you won't have too many different options available.
20091202 20:24:35< zookeeper> fendrin, right, i see those with some combinations...
20091202 20:24:50< zookeeper> taking a quick look
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20091202 20:26:39< fendrin> Crab_: strange ai behaviour in low 14
20091202 20:26:56< Crab_> fendrin: what kind of behavior?
20091202 20:27:27< CIA-62> fendrin * r40037 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Fixed the ugly map hack.
20091202 20:27:43< fendrin> Crab_: The leader flee/move towards the map border after the recruitment is finished.
20091202 20:28:07< Crab_> Aethaeryn: it should be possible to write a script that will output the different options available, taking that table into account..
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20091202 20:28:27< zookeeper> fendrin, i can't see anything wrong with any castle<->forest or snow hills, just castle<->snowmountains
20091202 20:28:51< fendrin> Crab_: note that that scenario replaces the map several times
20091202 20:29:23< Crab_> on which turn the weird behavior happens ?
20091202 20:31:00< fendrin> Crab_: 3 or 4, they have many gold.
20091202 20:31:25< fendrin> zookeeper: please have a look at low scenario 10.
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20091202 20:33:15< Crab_> fendrin: no luck reproducing with r39833, I'll recompile trunk now and try again...
20091202 20:33:25< CIA-62> alink * r40038 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/ (04_Descending_into_Darkness.cfg 08_Out_of_the_Frying_Pan.cfg): 
20091202 20:33:25< CIA-62> Replace huge list of separated ToD areas by only one using location ranges
20091202 20:33:25< CIA-62> (which is also much better for the engine)
20091202 20:34:18< alink> ^clipboard-to-selection + location-range-code is really handy for this
20091202 20:34:41< fendrin> Crab_: Maybe that behaviour only occours if the map replacements have taken place. Please set them to turn 2 and 3.
20091202 20:34:53< alink> I don't even understand how it was done before. With pen and paper ?
20091202 20:35:11< alink> illor: is there a way to use fill for selection ?
20091202 20:35:15< fendrin> Crab_: that is in line 519
20091202 20:35:19< alink> ilor^
20091202 20:35:28< Ivanovic> AI0867, alink, boucman, Crab_, deekay, ettin_, grzywacz, ilor, mordante, Rhonda, everyone else interesed: what about FOSDEM 2010?
20091202 20:35:39< ilor> Ivanovic: collides with my exams :/
20091202 20:35:46< Ivanovic> it will be at the beginning of febuary and we should *really* plan now and book the beds
20091202 20:36:01< fendrin> Crab_: and 415
20091202 20:36:20< ilor> alink: there is a magic-wand select feature, might require holding some key while selecting
20091202 20:36:38< Ivanovic> ilor: ah, screw those exams!
20091202 20:36:40< Ivanovic> ;)
20091202 20:36:49< Ivanovic> ilor: that is: you got some right at those days?
20091202 20:36:51< Ivanovic> :(
20091202 20:36:55< ilor> fail rate is around 40% for that particular one
20091202 20:37:09< ilor> and it's on the monday right after fosdem so...
20091202 20:37:13< Ivanovic> ugh, not too nice, but not too bad either
20091202 20:37:18< alink> ilor yeah magic-wand already help, except for selecting a bit area of mixed disjoint terrains
20091202 20:37:27< Ivanovic> (the really bad ones i had were at 15% success rate)
20091202 20:37:52< ilor> well, it's a compulsory class
20091202 20:38:15< ilor> alink: what else would you need then?
20091202 20:38:49< Crab_> Ivanovic: interesting..
20091202 20:39:16< Ivanovic> Crab_: no idea how easy it will be for you to come over, but it might work
20091202 20:39:29< alink> just select the boundary and use click to fill/select the interior, but i have no idea yet how to integrate it in the current interface
20091202 20:39:47< Ivanovic> Crab_: that is so far boucman said that he will most likely be there, i am confident that i will participate and fendrin also just told me in #wesnoth-de that he is interested in joining
20091202 20:40:06< Ivanovic> rough guess is that mordante will participate, too (at least he was there the last two times)
20091202 20:40:12< ilor> ah, this way, no, it's not there. best use a larger brush :)
20091202 20:41:10< alink> ilor: is there a size bigger than 3
20091202 20:41:13< alink> ?
20091202 20:42:02< ilor> alink: you can define one by edinting a WML file ;)
20091202 20:42:16< ilor> data/core/editor/brushes.cfg iirc
20091202 20:42:59< ilor> remove the bigus line one and uncomment the radius-3 one
20091202 20:43:41< ilor> you should be able to understand what's going on, keep in mind the interface probably won't like more than 4 brushe
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20091202 20:44:35< alink> add a button to convert selection into a custom brush shape ?
20091202 20:44:59< ilor> too much work, too little gain, I'd say
20091202 20:45:15< alink> ah yes, probably indeed
20091202 20:45:48< ilor> as opposed to the copy coords to clipboard one which was real easy and seems to be popular :P
20091202 20:46:02< alink> :)
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20091202 20:49:24< deekay> Ivanovic: hmm
20091202 20:49:25< deekay> :)
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20091202 20:55:30< fendrin> zookeeper: can you reproduce it?
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20091202 21:00:27< zookeeper> fendrin, looking..
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20091202 21:09:12< zookeeper> fendrin, i don't see any glitches there..
20091202 21:12:21< CIA-62> alink * r40039 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/03_Stirring_in_the_Night.cfg: 
20091202 21:12:21< CIA-62> A recent bugfix made a 'fixme' possible (declare ToD areas in event)
20091202 21:12:21< CIA-62> Also use the now-allowed terrain filter's feature to simplify the WML.
20091202 21:12:21< CIA-62> No change for gameplay.
20091202 21:17:56< Crab_> fendrin: ok, recompiled, changed events to turns 2 and 3, will try to reproduce again
20091202 21:19:54< Crab_> fendrin: note: I'm now getting lua error on start of LoW: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m50ed3e1e
20091202 21:22:36< Crab_> fendrin: and I cannot :cl to LoW 14 - getting http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m270beee9  (using raw 40038 without local modifications)
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20091202 21:30:03< CIA-62> fendrin * r40040 /trunk/data/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
20091202 21:30:03< CIA-62> Added a macro to core that moves all units by an offset.
20091202 21:30:03< CIA-62> Fixed bugs in LoW14.
20091202 21:30:24< fendrin> Crab_: sorry forget to commit the lua file and a macro.
20091202 21:30:52< Crab_> fendrin: np, will rebase again..
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20091202 21:39:08< Crab_> fendrin: reproduced
20091202 21:39:59< fendrin> Crab_: It's very strange, isn't it? I guess the Orc leader wants to return to his keep and has still the old position in mind. (before the map transformation)
20091202 21:41:05< Crab_> I'll find out what is happening..
20091202 21:41:48< Crab_> fendrin: you don't play with goto moves, do you ?
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20091202 21:46:03< Crab_> got it.
20091202 21:46:21< Crab_> looks like a 'stale cache' issue with the list of keeps
20091202 21:47:38< fendrin> Crab_: And the villages have the same problem. You own villages that are by coincident at the same position like a village you owned before. That is not wanted most of the time.
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20091202 21:50:51< Crab_> fendrin: wrt villages, can you give an example ?
20091202 21:54:08< fendrin> Crab_: do you see the villages in the middle of the map? if you disable my village wml hack in the load_map macro. One of that villages is still owned by the loyalists. It's 4 hexes to the left of a priviously owned villages. And that 4 is also the map offset.
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20091202 21:54:54< Crab_> fendrin: ah, now I see
20091202 22:08:47< Crab_> fendrin: compiling candidate fix for ai issue..
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20091202 22:28:30< CIA-62> ivanovic * r40041 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: credits update
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20091202 23:11:56< CIA-62> ivanovic * r40042 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Latvian translation
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20091202 23:37:08< Crab_> fendrin: ok, fixed some issues but the problem still remains. and it looks like the unit is executing a 'goto'..
20091202 23:37:23< Crab_> looking further..
20091202 23:40:51< fendrin> Crab_: I can't see anything special. No wml that could cause that goto.
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20091202 23:48:13< CIA-62> fendrin * r40043 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Reduced the MP of the dwarvish scout line by one.
20091202 23:49:45< Crab_> fendrin: look http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m48878507
20091202 23:50:02< Crab_> this is when I save the game after the 'map resize' but before that orc side actually moves
20091202 23:50:10< Crab_> note that goto_x an goto_y is set.
20091202 23:50:28< Crab_> so, this is a dawn side effect of something unrelated to ai...
20091202 23:50:47< Crab_> will try to find out, where it's set..
20091202 23:51:11< fendrin> Is goto_x only used by wml?
20091202 23:51:37< Crab_> fendrin: well, that ai hasn't got a chance to touch it yet - its turn has not even started
20091202 23:51:47< Crab_> so, this might be c++ handler of some wml function
20091202 23:52:00< Crab_> or a side effect of some unit operation
20091202 23:53:18< Crab_> of course, it's possible to work around it (e.g. by clearing that gotos). but, it's better to find out 'why?'
20091202 23:53:42< fendrin> I have seen my units moving when entering next turn like there was a goto_ set. And the strange thing is that I hadn't done that and it wasn't undoable.
20091202 23:54:09< fendrin> I thought that bug was fixed. Maybe it isn't.
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20091202 23:58:46< Crab_> but there might be other things, too..
20091202 23:59:03< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh: available for a minute?
20091202 23:59:25< Crab_> fendrin: it might be that this goto was set 'the turn before', by the ai
20091202 23:59:33< Aethaeryn> Crab_ and I thought out a lot of the system, but perhaps your "living villages" system kind of ties in to my dynamic faction relations idea.
--- Log closed Thu Dec 03 00:00:08 2009