--- Log opened Wed Dec 09 00:00:46 2009
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20091209 00:35:59< Ivanovic> [00:15:06] <teaser> hi, I don't want to do this in public as it is somewhat flamable: but have you all agreed to stop talking about Wesnoth as free (linking to gnu.org/philosophy) and instead talk about Wesnoth as open-source (linking to opensource.org) or is it only esr that made that change in the 1.8 announcement
20091209 00:36:07< Ivanovic> esr: any specific reason for this?
20091209 00:37:11< esr> Just my usual ones, "free" being ambigiuous and less descriptive in English and so forth.
20091209 00:37:56< Ivanovic> to be honest: personally i don't see much of a difference between the two
20091209 00:38:06< MikeJB> Imo, FOSS is a better term.
20091209 00:38:18< MikeJB> Stops people from trolling that "free" or "open source" is more correct.
20091209 00:38:30< esr> FOSS is *horrible*.  It sounds like dental hygiene.
20091209 00:38:42< Turuk>  Free also has a number of other connotations, as noted by the iPhone user who doesn't understand why he just paid 5 dollars for a "free" game.
20091209 00:38:49< MikeJB> Obviously you don't need to abbreviate it.
20091209 00:38:53< MikeJB> Such as "Free and Open Source"
20091209 00:38:59< MikeJB> Even "Free (Libre) and Open Source"
20091209 00:39:02< loonycyborg> esr: 'Free' not ambigiuous in Russian :P
20091209 00:39:05< esr> Gaaah.
20091209 00:39:20< loonycyborg> Free (Libre) and Open Source -> FLOSS
20091209 00:39:21< esr> Hackers don't understand propaganda.
20091209 00:39:24< Ivanovic> MikeJB: the problem with "free" is that many understand it like the free in beer
20091209 00:40:02< esr> Libre is unambiguous but sounds like private jargon or an affectation.  In English.
20091209 00:40:11< loonycyborg> Though FOSS is not as close to dental hygiene
20091209 00:41:27< esr> You asked me to write our marketing, I did in in a way that I know works well.
20091209 00:41:38< esr> s/did in/did it/
20091209 00:42:03 * zookeeper actually likes "open source" better than "free"
20091209 00:42:11 * Turuk agrees with zookeeper.
20091209 00:42:32 * Espreon also agrees.
20091209 00:42:39< Ivanovic> somehow open source is better understandable
20091209 00:42:53< Ivanovic> since it does not include the "free as in beer" connotation
20091209 00:43:05< Ivanovic> (okay, hmm, for many people it does, but that does not matter ;) )
20091209 00:43:06< Crab_> maybe rework the sentence to include full word, 'freedom'?
20091209 00:43:26< Turuk> Open source worked so well for ages.
20091209 00:43:26< zookeeper> (not to say that you can't still use an expression like "free and open source"...)
20091209 00:43:31< esr> Crab_: I could look for a way to do that.
20091209 00:43:55< Crab_> e.g. '... which brings you freedom to...'
20091209 00:45:01< esr> Following remark nit directed at anyone here: I'm amused that it took three weeks for the Stallmanites to start objecting...
20091209 00:45:09< esr> s/nit/not/
20091209 00:45:33< esr> Usually the flamwewar starts sooner.
20091209 00:45:47< zookeeper> everyone who cares about the freedoms already knows that they have them, and to the rest it looks nerdy
20091209 00:45:55< teaser> well, you may call me whatever you want but I objected as soon as I saw it...
20091209 00:46:16< Turuk> I see nothing here that does not resemble a reasonable conversation, and the only thing that might have turned it into a flamewar was the "not directed at anyone" Stallmanite comment
20091209 00:46:28< Turuk> Beyond that, it was a simple point of discussion
20091209 00:47:01< teaser> I also think that there is a difference in what you use as link text and what you link to
20091209 00:48:10< Sirp> I think it's easiest to just keep all parties happy by saying "free, open source software"
20091209 00:48:16< MikeJB> Open source is the more popular term at the moment.
20091209 00:48:19< teaser> I understand that free/Free is hard to grasp in some languages but the content at opensource.org and gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html is fairly different
20091209 00:48:45< MikeJB> But I do agree that saying both terms (as it meets both definitions) is best.
20091209 00:48:51 * esr goes to look at the page master
20091209 00:49:18< Sirp> the thing about "open source" is that it's a technical term. To someone who isn't technical at all, like my mother, the term "open source" means very little. The term "free" means a hell of a lot.
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20091209 00:49:50< Sirp> the problem with "free" alone is that people tend to think it means "freeware".
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20091209 00:50:50< loonycyborg> Sirp: Maybe writing it with capital letter will disambiguate it a little.
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20091209 00:51:16< Sirp> loonycyborg: capital letter is fine, as long as both 'Free' and 'Open Source' appear capitalized, otherwise once again some people will get panties in a knot...
20091209 00:52:22< esr> Sirp: I don't like to capitalize "open source".  It's an engineering term of art, not a proper name or trademark.
20091209 00:52:56< Sirp> esr: I'm really fine either way. Just as long as we don't capitalize "open source" and then not capitalize "free" because that pisses some people off...
20091209 00:53:13< esr> You wouldn't capitalize "code review", or "proof of correctness"; "open source" shouldn't be capitalized either.
20091209 00:54:30< esr> I'll find some way to wedge "free" or "freedom" into the text.
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20091209 00:55:02< teaser> ok, and how about the link-target?
20091209 00:55:32< stikonas_> that's quite obvious: open links to opensource.org, free links to gnu.org
20091209 00:55:32< MikeJB> maybe free[footnote] and then expand it as ("as in freedom")
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20091209 04:46:52< CIA-12> esr * r40176 /website/start/1.8/template.html: Political cover.
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20091209 16:57:35< noy> Ivanovic: got a moment?
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20091209 17:33:21< Ivanovic> hi
20091209 17:33:29< Ivanovic> noy: yes, now i got a moment
20091209 17:33:50< noy> Can you place a couple of days ban on seeker on the forums?
20091209 17:33:58< noy> he's trolling the iphone thread
20091209 17:34:07< noy> and he was warned by two developers not to do it
20091209 17:34:12< Ivanovic> sure
20091209 17:34:40< noy> maybe four days
20091209 17:34:53< noy> with the promise that if he comes back and continues it will be alot more
20091209 17:34:53< Ivanovic> please tell me a username and uservisible reason
20091209 17:35:20< noy> Seeker  
20091209 17:35:40< noy> Trolling the Iphone thread after numerous warnings
20091209 17:47:28< Ivanovic> give me about half an hour, then i will place the ban
20091209 17:51:35< noy> Ivanovic: make it for two days
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20091209 18:02:04< Ivanovic> mordante: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28046&start=0
20091209 18:08:34-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-88-167.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091209 18:09:21< Ivanovic> noy: done
20091209 18:09:25< noy> thank you
20091209 18:09:27< Ivanovic> banned till Dec 11th
20091209 18:10:17< noy> I think he needs a bit of a warning
20091209 18:10:25< noy> that what he did wasn't acceptable
20091209 18:10:28< noy> but nothing severe
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20091209 18:31:05< fendrin> Hello, I have a little programm with my branch. After packing the frogatto wml/fml parser into a library I no longer receive stacktraces from the debugger. I am lost without the debugger.
20091209 18:31:37< fendrin> s/programm/problem
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20091209 19:43:02< mordante> servus
20091209 19:48:49< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20091209 19:48:59< mordante> hi Ivanovic
20091209 19:49:09< mordante> Ivanovic,  reading the forum thread
20091209 19:49:53< Ivanovic> oaky
20091209 19:52:35< fendrin> <terminated> gdb Debugger (Exited. Exit code = 0.)
20091209 19:52:56< fendrin> <terminated, exit value: 0>gdb
20091209 19:53:29< fendrin> <terminated, exit value: 0>/home/fabi/wesnoth_trunk_build/wesnoth
20091209 19:53:59< CIA-12> ivanovic * r40177 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 4 dirs): updated Latvian and Portuguese (Brazil) translation
20091209 19:54:28< mordante> fendrin, from ecplise or command line?
20091209 19:54:34< fendrin> Mehr gibt es nicht mehr. Ich hab auch versucht breakpoints in die codezeilen von denen ich glaube das er da aussteigt. 
20091209 19:54:45< fendrin> sorry for german.
20091209 19:54:54< fendrin> mordante: from eclipse.
20091209 19:55:13< mordante> and that happens directly when starting the debugger?
20091209 19:55:20< fendrin> mordante: yes
20091209 19:55:53< mordante> best try from the command-line just type gdb wesnoth
20091209 19:56:12< mordante> in the directory containing the executable
20091209 19:58:33< fendrin> (gdb) bt
20091209 19:58:35< fendrin> No stack.
20091209 19:59:12< mordante> yup you need to do r to run first and maybe set a breakpoint, depending on what you want to debug
20091209 20:01:59< fendrin> mordante: It doesn't find the data dir when started from commandline. And I don't get how I can give it arguments.
20091209 20:02:19< mordante> r then_the_normal_parameters
20091209 20:04:19< fendrin> Okay, that works. It starts and exits with the error message. bt gives still no stack.
20091209 20:05:58< mordante> what error message?
20091209 20:06:12< Soliton> there is no back trace once the app quits.
20091209 20:08:40< fendrin> Soliton: How can I provoce a backtrace?
20091209 20:09:01< Soliton> set a breakpoint for example.
20091209 20:09:11< fendrin> I just don't find the right place for the breakpoint with only the error message.
20091209 20:09:28< fendrin> the error message is: Mandatory WML child missing yet untested for. Please report.
20091209 20:09:45< Soliton> ah, that is a tricky one indeed.
20091209 20:10:21< fendrin> That is thrown in config.cpp but if I place a breakpoint there I get 1000th of break events. It is pointless to press continue 500 times.
20091209 20:11:12< Soliton> well, place the break point only where it goes into the if branch that errors out..
20091209 20:11:25< mordante> fendrin,  catch throw 
20091209 20:11:26< loonycyborg> Maybe set breakpoint on the code that emits this message?
20091209 20:11:37< Soliton> or call abort() before the throw.
20091209 20:12:04< mordante> I prefer asm("int3");
20091209 20:13:10< loonycyborg> catch throw is the way to go if that message is emitted after handled exception.
20091209 20:14:15< mordante> loonycyborg, it is ;-)
20091209 20:14:59< loonycyborg> Though its drawback is that it catches *all* exceptions.
20091209 20:15:03< fendrin> Soliton: That works, thank you. loonycyborg: well, I am not fit enough to implement exception handling right now. 
20091209 20:15:20< fendrin> loonycyborg: ^
20091209 20:15:45< Soliton> fendrin: "catch throw" was meant as a gdb command to use.
20091209 20:15:46< mordante> fendrin, the message is already caused by an exception and catch throw breaks when an exception is thrown 
20091209 20:16:32< fendrin> ah, good to know. Thank you all. That is only for exceptions that arent't handled at top level I guess?
20091209 20:17:02< loonycyborg> catch throw is supposed to support catching particular exceptions according to gdb's help, but it dosn't seem to actually work :/
20091209 20:17:23< Soliton> it's for all exceptions that get thrown somewhere.
20091209 20:17:44< fendrin> Ah, it's comming from the ai. That new ai is hacked sideways into wesnoth. It's the only part that does some parsing of it's own and doesn't use the config_cache.
20091209 20:17:47< Soliton> exceptions that don't get handled anywhere would already cause an abort where you would get a bt.
20091209 20:18:35< fendrin> Now I understand.
20091209 20:23:24< mordante> Ivanovic, did you see this thread http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28033 ?
20091209 20:23:48< Ivanovic> i saw it: yes, i reacted: no
20091209 20:24:02< mordante> I know you didn't react ;-)
20091209 20:27:55< fendrin> Is there a way to print a object of type config to stdout?
20091209 20:29:33< Zarel> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27872&start=75 <- oh, man, why do I have a feeling we aren't going to go easy on Seeker?
20091209 20:29:58< Zarel> In his defense, I think he was attempting a joke in good faith just there.
20091209 20:29:59< mordante> Zarel, since he's annoying
20091209 20:30:19< mordante> he has been banned from the MP server before as well
20091209 20:30:43< mordante> and I listened to his complains on #wesnoth-mp
20091209 20:30:55< loonycyborg> Zarel: AFAIK he already should be banned :P
20091209 20:31:07< loonycyborg> On forums that is.
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20091209 20:32:12< fendrin> The source code of that iphone port is available, isn't it?
20091209 20:32:13< silene> hi
20091209 20:32:28< Soliton> fendrin: it has a debug() function to do that iirc.
20091209 20:32:58< Soliton> and yes the source should be available.
20091209 20:33:02< mordante> hi silene 
20091209 20:33:15< Ivanovic> fendrin: http://wesnoth.repositoryhosting.com/trac/wesnoth_wesnoth/
20091209 20:44:40< fendrin> Ivanovic: thank you
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20091209 21:03:38< fendrin> All lines in the library are "unresolved breakpoints". The internet told me to build and link with debug symbols. Can this by done by cmake, Ivanovic?
20091209 21:04:41< Soliton> scons build=debug
20091209 21:05:39< fendrin> Soliton: That is much work for me. My scons build system isn't able to compile my branch anymore.
20091209 21:05:51< fendrin> I have only kept the cmake file uptodate.
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20091209 21:06:20< Ivanovic> fendrin: there is some debug switch
20091209 21:06:35< Ivanovic> just have a look at the setup using cmake-gui or ccmake
20091209 21:06:59< Ivanovic> change the var, hit "configure/generate" and recompile
20091209 21:11:18< loonycyborg> fendrin: You probably could setup eclipse to use scons as external tool.
20091209 21:11:41< fendrin> Ivanovic: great, that did it. 
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20091209 21:11:54< mordante> I'm off bye
20091209 21:12:05< fendrin> loonycyborg: Yes, but that means I am on my own. Ivanovic was able to help me greatly using cmake.
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20091209 21:13:09< loonycyborg> Not really. I could help there..
20091209 21:14:04< loonycyborg> Though I probably will not help much with cmake since I consider it deprecated.
20091209 21:14:33< fendrin> loonycyborg: If my changes get into trunk I will need to update scons. At least then your help is valuable.
20091209 21:15:22< fendrin> Oh, It's still failing. Had to recompile to realize it.
20091209 21:15:44< CIA-12> noyga * r40178 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): French translation update
20091209 21:16:18< fendrin> loonycyborg: okay, let's go the scons way.
20091209 21:16:48< fendrin> loonycyborg: I need full debuging support in all parts of wesnoth.
20091209 21:18:20< loonycyborg> scons build=debug should achieve that. The resulting binary will be named wesnoth-debug.
20091209 21:19:02< fendrin> loonycyborg: Well, I guess I need at last register my new files to scons, needn't I?
20091209 21:19:10< loonycyborg> Yes.
20091209 21:19:38< loonycyborg> To src/SConscript
20091209 21:20:48< fendrin> loonycyborg: I have learned that the new files are need to be in a library called wesnoth-core something.
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20091209 21:21:28< loonycyborg> That the first source list in the file.
20091209 21:24:07< fendrin> loonycyborg: It looks like the scons part of the procedure is done. Compiling... Do you also know about eclipse and scons?
20091209 21:24:56< loonycyborg> Not much. I only know that all IDEs are supposed to support using external tools.
20091209 21:25:17< fendrin> loonycyborg: cmake was able to generate a working eclipse config file set.
20091209 21:25:21< loonycyborg> No idea what level of integration that'll achieve.
20091209 21:25:38< fendrin> loonycyborg: I guess scons is no tool that can export config file sets?
20091209 21:26:00< loonycyborg> It supports only msvc currently.
20091209 21:26:54< loonycyborg> AFAIK eclipse can automatically add files to project somehow.
20091209 21:27:34< loonycyborg> iirc someone made a pure eclipse project, using eclipse's own buildsystem.
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20091209 21:28:34< fendrin> loonycyborg: The only scons plugin that I have found is discontinued. Eclipse is not the best c++ ide.
20091209 21:29:11< loonycyborg> iirc that scons plugin is evil, overwrites SConstruct files.
20091209 21:29:49< fendrin> loonycyborg: What ide are you using?
20091209 21:30:01< Ivanovic> vim
20091209 21:30:04< Ivanovic> ;)
20091209 21:30:19< loonycyborg> I compile from command line and edit everything with gvim :P
20091209 21:30:36< loonycyborg> Basically my entire desktop is an IDE :P
20091209 21:32:32< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Btw do you know what is the proper gentoo ebuild to install eclipse?
20091209 21:32:42< Ivanovic> no idea
20091209 21:33:09< Ivanovic> http://gentoo-portage.com/Search?search=eclipse
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20091209 21:33:15< Ivanovic> i'd use eclipse-sdk
20091209 21:33:16< Ivanovic> ;)
20091209 21:33:44< fendrin> Ivanovic: Any idea why cmake doesn't include debug symbols everywhere?
20091209 21:34:02< Ivanovic> no idea and currently i am on telephone
20091209 21:34:05< Ivanovic> so not really around...
20091209 21:34:40< fendrin> How can I test the build done by scons? Is the cmdline gdb able to set breakpoints. I am sure I don't even want to know how it is done.
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20091209 21:36:36< loonycyborg> gdb ./wesnoth-debug
20091209 21:36:41< loonycyborg> start
20091209 21:37:00< loonycyborg> break function_name
20091209 21:37:03< loonycyborg> continue
20091209 21:48:31< loonycyborg> Of course you could also move wesnoth-debug to location where eclipse expects it to be :P (unless it'll try to rebuild it)
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20091209 21:52:45< fendrin> loonycyborg: it does rebuild it.
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20091209 22:03:43< fendrin> loonycyborg: I see from the tab completion in the gdb that some of the classes are part of the debug run and some are missing. 
20091209 22:05:46< loonycyborg> Tab completion acts somehow weird in gdb..
20091209 22:06:52< loonycyborg> AFAICT to doesn't handle C++ very well.
20091209 22:07:00< loonycyborg> s/to/it
20091209 22:08:36< loonycyborg> You can try something like break src/game.cpp:2168, break based on line number
20091209 22:12:58< fendrin> No source file named wml/wml_parser.cpp.
20091209 22:13:23< loonycyborg> Try src/wml/wml_parser.cpp
20091209 22:16:16< fendrin> loonycyborg: no, i tried  break /usr/local/src/wesnoth_trunk/wml/wml_parser.cpp:518 as well
20091209 22:19:44< Soliton> you actually put source code not under src?
20091209 22:20:47< fendrin> Soliton: Still no luck with the right path.
20091209 22:21:36< loonycyborg> Does it work with any other sourcefiles? E.g. src/game.cpp:2168 . That worked for me.
20091209 22:22:09< fendrin> loonycyborg: yes, that is fine.
20091209 22:22:34< loonycyborg> Weird..
20091209 22:27:32< fendrin> I am lost without the debugger. Damn, maybe it's only a little step to a working prototype.
20091209 22:33:03< Ivanovic> fendrin: no way for printf debugging?
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20091209 22:34:21< loonycyborg> Or cout debugging :P
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20091209 23:16:59< fendrin> Ivanovic: I don't know the place where the programm fails. Where should I place the printf?
20091209 23:17:28< Ivanovic> the normal case: use *
20091209 23:18:05< Ivanovic> many* printf
20091209 23:18:35< Crab_> fendrin: might help: try running wesnoth with full logging enabled, and try to find out which log messages were last and from where they have come.
20091209 23:18:48< Ivanovic> jupp, full logging is a good start
20091209 23:19:02< Ivanovic> then place some extra printf in the area where things stopped working
20091209 23:20:13< Crab_> fendrin: is there a particular reason for not having/using the stack trace ?
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20091209 23:50:48< fendrin> hi Crab_
20091209 23:50:55< Crab_> hi
20091209 23:55:43< loonycyborg> fendrin: Actually there's a premade CodeBlocks-scons projectfile in projectfiles/CodeBlocks-SCons . Should work out of the box on linux.
20091209 23:56:12< loonycyborg> I could make something similar for eclipse but it seems to be a lot more complicated..
20091209 23:56:22< Sirp> hi Turuk 
20091209 23:56:31< Turuk> Hey Sirp, how's it going?
20091209 23:56:55< Sirp> going well...and with you?
20091209 23:57:10< Turuk> Going well too, off for the day and catching up on my forum fix. I'm still waiting for a response on what we discussed, though it's not surprising. It took them a while last time initially, but then it was back and forth.
20091209 23:58:30 * Sirp nods
20091209 23:58:51< Turuk> They should remember us, but...
20091209 23:58:55 * Turuk shrugs
20091209 23:58:58< Turuk> Who knows.
--- Log closed Thu Dec 10 00:00:57 2009