--- Log opened Thu Dec 10 00:00:57 2009
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20091210 00:02:55< CIA-12> ivanovic * r40179 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Slovak translation
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20091210 00:06:02< Ivanovic> Crab_: so do you already have an idea regarding the VISA stuff?
20091210 00:06:48< fendrin> loonycyborg: don't start that. I will have to investigate more carefully what is going wrong here before you invest more time that maybe wasted.
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20091210 00:08:16< loonycyborg> fendrin: I just forgot to mention that when you asked what ide I'm using.
20091210 00:09:54< loonycyborg> I actually resort to it when I think that an ide is absolutely warranted, e.g. for large scale code spelunking :P
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20091210 00:10:53< Crab_> Ivanovic: yes. I was recommended to not seek German/Belguim visa directly, as this application will most likely result in rejection (since I hasn't travelled to eurozone yet). on the other hand, I was told that Polish visa will be rather easy for me to get.
20091210 00:11:12< Ivanovic> Crab_: okay, cool
20091210 00:11:38< Ivanovic> so you will likely be traveling with grzywacz and deekay, right?
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20091210 00:14:47< Crab_> Ivanovic: most likely. but, apart from Polish route, I am considering traveling to my friends in Finland somewhen around new year - this can result (as a side effect) in getting a schengen visa for a year - allowing me, later, to enter Germany directly.  In a week, I'll know how it will turn out.
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20091210 00:35:42< fendrin> Crab_: How can I bring wesnoth to output as much as possible?
20091210 00:36:19< Crab_> ./wesnoth --log-debug=all
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20091210 01:07:38< fendrin> doesn't the preprocessor cut out all those #textdomain? They confuse the fml parser.
20091210 01:07:58< shadowmaster> "fml"?
20091210 01:08:19< shadowmaster> ah, your secret experiment (whose details I'd love to know about=
20091210 01:09:07< shadowmaster> also, no, it doesn't; the parser grabs the #textdomain directives
20091210 01:09:44< shadowmaster> uh, bah, I'm reading the wrong place. Disregard that.
20091210 01:11:38< fendrin> shadowmaster: secret? You can check out my branch.
20091210 01:12:20< fendrin> shadowmaster: What exactly do you want to know?
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20091210 01:13:59< shadowmaster> shikadibot: dir /branches
20091210 01:13:59< shikadibot> Web interface URL to directory /branches: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches
20091210 01:16:00< shadowmaster> I thought it was  "gui_stuff" branch only :P
20091210 01:16:18< CIA-12> fendrin * r40180 /branches/fendrin_gui_stuff/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): activated the frogatto wml parser
20091210 01:16:28< fendrin> shadowmaster: The gui modifications are ready.
20091210 01:16:31< shadowmaster> why are you trying to use a different WML parser?
20091210 01:17:01< shadowmaster> is it something related to improved formula support?
20091210 01:17:25< fendrin> I am trying to port the frogatto wml parser to wesnoth. Well, that could be a side effect. 
20091210 01:18:02< fendrin> The main reason is: Frogatto does some sort of schema validation for the wml.
20091210 01:20:15< fendrin> shadowmaster: I snipped of code that reads from an istream and cuts out the lines that beginn with a #textdomain would solve the problem. (And disable translation for the time.)
20091210 01:20:43< fendrin> shadowmaster: istream is not quite my friend.
20091210 01:21:14< shadowmaster> I've never been able to get into using iostreams for anything else than writing to stderr/stdout.
20091210 01:23:12< fendrin> shadowmaster: be sure to update to r40180 if you want to see the thing in action.
20091210 01:24:54< loonycyborg> fendrin: Did you already merged your gui changes to trunk?
20091210 01:25:41< fendrin> loonycyborg: no, they are still some kind of experimental, I would call them a prototype. But I plan to commit them to trunk after the release of 1.9.
20091210 01:27:11< loonycyborg> IMO it would be wise to use different branches for that and fml work. Otherwise it might be hard to merge e.g. only gui changes without fml.
20091210 01:27:54< fendrin> loonycyborg: That work is in different parts of wesnoth. The sets of files are disjunced so far.
20091210 01:28:15< fendrin> But I agree. I should have different branches for that.
20091210 01:31:10< fendrin> Is anyone around who can tell me how translation is done in wesnoth? At what time do I get rid of the #textdomain directives?
20091210 01:31:51< shadowmaster> silene would know, I think
20091210 01:32:41< shadowmaster> he has copyright on most of the current WML parser and preprocessor code, anyway.
20091210 01:33:47< fendrin> shadowmaster: By the way, the frogatto preprocessor only handles file inclusions, nothing more. That's why I use the wesnoth preprocessor with the frogatto parser.
20091210 01:37:57< shadowmaster> I'd love to see a WML library that could be used not only by Wesntoh and Frogatto. :(
20091210 01:39:34< Aethaeryn> I'd like to see a WML dependency.
20091210 01:39:36< Aethaeryn> Yeah.
20091210 01:39:45< Aethaeryn> If I ever made a game I wouldn't mind using WML. <_<
20091210 01:40:01< Aethaeryn> Considering it would probably be TBS, although probably very different.
20091210 01:40:30< shadowmaster> I am unworthy. I misspelled "Wesnoth".
20091210 01:40:55< fendrin> Wesntoh sounds good.
20091210 01:41:17< Aethaeryn> libwml?
20091210 01:41:42< shadowmaster> um, I don't think so
20091210 01:42:12< shadowmaster> search for "WML" and you'll see why.
20091210 01:43:09< Aethaeryn> Wikipedia uses the acronym WML... I'm not sure if another does
20091210 01:43:18< loonycyborg> WML is also some kind of markup language used in WAP sites for mobile phones.
20091210 01:43:32< Aethaeryn> ah
20091210 01:43:37< shadowmaster> and it also stands for Website META Language.
20091210 01:43:44< shadowmaster> when I told you to search for "WML" I meant it :|
20091210 01:44:54< shadowmaster> so, if you were librarifying it, you'd need a more original name.
20091210 01:46:44< fendrin> GML
20091210 01:46:53< fendrin> Game Markup Language
20091210 01:47:28< shadowmaster> taken by "Geography Markup Language" and "Game Maker Language" ;)
20091210 01:48:06< Aethaeryn> why not add a letter
20091210 01:48:08< Aethaeryn> WLML
20091210 01:48:12< Aethaeryn> Wesnoth-like Markup Letter
20091210 01:48:14< shadowmaster> why not libirdya?
20091210 01:48:15< shadowmaster> :P
20091210 01:48:19< Aethaeryn> The more letters involved, the less likely it's taken
20091210 01:48:33< Aethaeryn> So it's not wesnoth markup language, but wesnoth-like because it's for wesnoth-like set-ups
20091210 01:48:50< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Frogatto is a jump and run.
20091210 01:48:55< shadowmaster> hehe, libirdya isn't taken
20091210 01:49:06< shadowmaster> 0 hits on Google.
20091210 01:49:15< shadowmaster> s/hits/results/
20091210 01:50:46< Aethaeryn> fendrin: at least, wesnoth-like language.
20091210 01:51:10< Aethaeryn> There's more than one meaning to WLML?
20091210 01:52:04< shadowmaster> bah, just call it "Irdya Markup", more known as "libirdya".
20091210 01:52:21< Aethaeryn> But then that requires renaming WML?
20091210 01:52:41< shadowmaster> let's say WML and FML are dialects of Irdya Markup
20091210 01:52:56< shadowmaster> so you don't have to change the status quo for the forumers
20091210 02:08:18< Aethaeryn> It's FML?
20091210 02:09:14< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: One problem with "Irdya Markup" is that the acronym "IM" is kinda taken.
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20091210 02:11:21< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: but that won't be its main name.
20091210 02:11:29< shadowmaster> It's main name would be libirdya
20091210 02:11:53< Aethaeryn> hmm
20091210 02:11:56< Aethaeryn> good idea
20091210 02:11:58< Aethaeryn> do it.
20091210 02:12:16< shadowmaster> me? :(
20091210 02:12:33< shadowmaster> no, I don't think I know enough of either engine to librarify them
20091210 02:12:49< Aethaeryn> Bah.
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20091210 03:51:49< esr> fabi: I'm playing the last scenario of Dead Water.  Yes, this campaign is mainline-quality.  All it needs is a prose polish - and, optionally, a portrait or two.
20091210 03:52:34< shadowmaster> some sprites could be improved IMHO
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20091210 03:53:03< shadowmaster> last time I checked some of them seemed to lack mainline-style shading
20091210 03:53:58< esr> shadowmaster: Yes, but that's always the case.  What's there is *impressive*.  I could name it least two campaigns un mainline that aren't as good.
20091210 03:54:26< shadowmaster> NR for example? :P
20091210 03:54:34< shadowmaster> jk
20091210 03:56:18< esr> Is this beetlenaut's first?
20091210 03:58:04< shadowmaster> according to http://tinyurl.com/ygayrxb , yes
20091210 04:00:18< esr> shadowmaster: I told him to apply to you for wesnoth-umc-dev access.
20091210 04:00:33< esr> Then to check Dead Wather in there.
20091210 04:01:24< shadowmaster> yes, and he is on #wesnoth-umc-dev
20091210 04:01:32< esr> A day and a half of prose polish is about all it'll take. His maps and battles are very good but his prose is kind of bland. 
20091210 04:01:32< shadowmaster> he hasn't replied to my original question though
20091210 04:01:36< esr> ?
20091210 04:01:44< shadowmaster> whether he knows how to use SVN etc.
20091210 04:02:39< esr> zookeeper says he's easy to work with.  
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20091210 04:04:43< esr> Ivanovic: Good news for Wesnoth, more work for the translators: "Dead Water" needs only a prose polish to be mainlined in 1.9.  It's *good*!
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20091210 04:06:07< esr> And it will be a very fast adaptation, not like the heavy ork on DM and LoW.
20091210 04:06:16< esr> s/ork/work/
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20091210 04:16:34< shadowmaster> esr: I'm just saying I'm still waiting for an answer ;)
20091210 04:16:55< shadowmaster> also, keep in mind Ivanovic is sleeping
20091210 04:17:08< Thrawn> sorry to bother y'all, but I've downloaded Dead Water from add-ons, but it doesn't appear anywhere...(your unintentional viral marketing worked XD)
20091210 04:17:08< esr> Oh, I just saw him sign on.
20091210 04:17:35< esr> Look at the end of the campaign list.
20091210 04:17:42< shadowmaster> esr: that's Ivanovic's bouncer
20091210 04:17:50< esr> Ah.
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20091210 04:18:03< esr> Er...what's a bouncer?
20091210 04:18:24< shadowmaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNC_(software)
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20091210 04:19:12< Thrawn> esr: please, I'm not that silly--it isn't there, that's my point
20091210 04:19:14< esr> Ah, I see.
20091210 04:19:27< esr> Thrawn: Odd.
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20091210 04:19:35 * shadowmaster can't download DW, would take too long
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20091210 04:20:52< Crab_> shadowmaster: 497 kb ?
20091210 04:21:24< Crab_> ok, downloaded. for me, it's here, at end of campaign list
20091210 04:21:29< shadowmaster> eh? I recalled megabytes
20091210 04:21:37< Thrawn> esr: got it--It works on the 1.7, but not 1.6
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20091210 04:22:16< Crab_> shadowmaster: maybe some stuff isn't included yet or is optimized ?
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20091210 04:22:20< shadowmaster> Thrawn: (unless you were trying to use the 1.7.x-compatible release on 1.6) that should be reported to the campaign thread
20091210 04:22:35< shadowmaster> Crab_: optimized maybe
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20091210 04:23:02< Thrawn> shadowmaster: nah, it was the one from each separate versions add-ons, so yeah, I'll report it
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20091210 04:53:24< shadowmaster> I had not noticed that wesnoth froze instead of completing the download
20091210 04:53:56< shadowmaster> oh wait, it did not freeze, I just left it SIGSTOP'd :P
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20091210 10:47:39< Ivanovic> moin
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20091210 14:07:28< Zarel> Hey guys.
20091210 14:07:32< Zarel> Spammer detected here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=396724#p396724
20091210 14:07:49< Zarel> I think you guys should just close Off Topic from members with 0 posts.
20091210 14:08:40< zookeeper> split...
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20091210 14:33:11< Zarel> zookeeper: ...that was a spammer. Just outright delete.
20091210 14:39:04< zookeeper> Zarel, no, i meant i split it off to the moderator's forum so someone with admin rights will see it and ban
20091210 14:46:24< Ivanovic> uhm, is there any reason why the "war talon" is not using the icon that is used by that "battle claws"?
20091210 14:47:07< Ivanovic> that is: the drake warrior line (beside the last in the line) still use the "war blade"
20091210 14:47:22< Ivanovic> the question is: which "claw weapon" is *what* exactly?
20091210 14:48:32< esr> zookeeper: Can I treat [have_unit] as an ordinary predicate, put two of them in an [and] and expect it to work?
20091210 14:48:57< zookeeper> esr, yes
20091210 14:49:27< Zarel> zookeeper: Moderators can't ban? o_O
20091210 14:50:23< esr> zookeeper: Thanks.
20091210 14:50:44< Zarel> For moderators, there's a "Banning" button next to the username on user profiles on the Warzone forums, which also run phpBB 3.
20091210 14:51:10< esr> zookeeper: I'm doing a dialogue polish on Dead Water and am nearly done.  The WML seems to be of quite high quality. 
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20091210 15:19:25< zookeeper> esr, yeah. have you talked with beetlenaut yet? looks like he frequents #wesnoth.
20091210 15:24:35< esr> zookeeper: I've exchanged email with him and am about to send my prose changes.
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20091210 15:26:07< zookeeper> oh, ok
20091210 15:26:14< zookeeper> all good then
20091210 15:26:21< esr> I've done (I think) nine adaptations for mainline so far.  This one was by *far* the easiest.  You and he can argue about the last scenario and maybe improve it during 1.9, but with my porose changes it is reday.
20091210 15:26:42< esr> s/porose/prose/
20091210 15:27:07< esr> I'm really pretty freaking impressed.
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20091210 15:29:49< esr> I encouraged him to write another one.
20091210 15:31:35< zookeeper> cool, that'll be the eight campaign with the same "we must flee our homes!" beginning premise :p
20091210 15:32:17< esr> Not like it isn't historically plausible.
20091210 15:32:29< zookeeper> or was it "eighth"? i guess.
20091210 15:32:35< esr> Where would you rate this one in difficulty?
20091210 15:33:02< zookeeper> no idea, it was a decent while ago since i played it. intermediate would be my guess.
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20091210 15:33:34< esr> (Unfortutely, "They defeated the invaders and lived happily ever after" makes poor drama.)
20091210 15:34:05< esr> Yeah, I agree on Intermediate.  Trying to figure out where to sort it mamong those.
20091210 15:34:27< zookeeper> getting to be the invaders would be a nice change...
20091210 15:34:39< esr> Write it :-)
20091210 15:35:04< zookeeper> nah, i have my hands full with non-wesnoth things for a while
20091210 15:37:20< esr> OK, I'm thinking it's a little trickier that THoT, about on a level with DiD.  Gonna rank it 145, probably.
20091210 15:39:06< zookeeper> a drake campaign where you get to arrive on the great continent and clear out a nice patch of land for yourself might fit in nicely, seeing that you get to 1) be an invader and 2) play drakes :P
20091210 15:42:08< esr> Yes.
20091210 15:43:04< esr> I have some pretty well-formed - nasty, but well-formed - ideas about Drake biology and social structure.  That'd be a good way to play with them.
20091210 15:43:07< Zarel> esr, zookeeper: Are we talking about DM?
20091210 15:43:13< Zarel> Well, "were"
20091210 15:43:41< esr> Zarel: No. Dead Water.  zookeeper recommended it for mainlining in 1.9, and that was a good call.
20091210 15:44:04< esr> It's *very* well done.
20091210 15:44:05< Zarel> Ah.
20091210 15:44:20< Zarel> I gotta take a look. Is it in the 1.7 addon server?
20091210 15:44:34< esr> Now we're speculating about a drake campaign.
20091210 15:44:47< esr> Hey, I've got a good name for it.
20091210 15:45:27< esr> "After the Fall."  We know the drakes came from somewhere called Morogoth, fleeing a catastrophe.
20091210 15:45:41< esr> Zarel: It is.
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20091210 15:46:52< Zarel> Oh, lol, forgot I had a terrible internet connection.
20091210 15:46:58< zookeeper> too misleading considering that "the fall" often refers to what happened with the third sun.
20091210 15:47:11< esr> Hm, that's a point.
20091210 15:47:12< Zarel> I'm surprised in can chat on IRC. I haven't been able to connect to anything else, and apparently that includes the addons server.
20091210 15:47:44< Zarel> After the Fall of Wesnoth and by that We Are Referring to the Country Founded by Haldric
20091210 15:48:08< Zarel> It would be the longest campaign name ever! ;D
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20091210 15:52:28< zookeeper> flutter onto a coast somewhere (with all your clashers having drowned), skirmish with natives, move to a nice mountain somewhere, skirmish with natives, clear a stronghold for yourself and then defend it in an epic final battle against the good guys who think you're monsters.
20091210 15:53:45< BroodKiller> and then reach a peace treaty or kill'em all?
20091210 15:54:32< esr> Short campaign, I'm thinking.  Six or eight scenarios, about Liberty-sized?
20091210 15:54:36< zookeeper> kill most of them so they won't bugger you for a while and then leave the rest open
20091210 15:54:51< zookeeper> something of that size, yes
20091210 15:55:40< esr> We can have a first scenario in the Great Ocean - reuse the Peoples In Decline map, eve, have 'em fight Saurians as an appetizer.
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20091210 15:56:13< zookeeper> that's the island they originate from, i'd think they wouldn't need to be fighting saurians there
20091210 15:56:32< esr> I don't think that's where they come from.
20091210 15:56:38< zookeeper> if anything, then start on a small pitstop island somewhere near the coast
20091210 15:57:07< esr> I alawys assumed Morogoth was further West on the Old Continent and they island-hopped eastwards.
20091210 15:57:26< esr> (And mow you're talking the Rough Landing map.)
20091210 15:58:13< zookeeper> there's "morogor"
20091210 15:58:22< zookeeper> and AFAIK that's the peoples of decline map
20091210 15:58:46< esr> I never thought so.  But I could be wrong.
20091210 15:58:52< zookeeper> although in that scenario it is actually unclear, since one drake only talks about "lords of morogor", which could mean it's somewhere else
20091210 15:59:06< esr> Yeah, that's what I thought.
20091210 15:59:10< zookeeper> or rather wouldn't contradict it
20091210 15:59:27< esr> They talked like an outpost of empire, maybe acdead one.
20091210 16:01:18< zookeeper> anyways, that'd be the place from which the drakes of the campaign would originate from
20091210 16:01:53< zookeeper> since that's the well-known drake island which we know they'll have to leave sooner or later
20091210 16:02:27< Zarel> Would the drakes have any contact with humans before they leave the drake island?
20091210 16:02:32< esr> Have 'em make lanfall on the Great Continent further north than Haldric did; the Heart Mountains are more their kind of country.
20091210 16:02:55< esr> On the Old Continent, maybe, if you buy Morogor being there.
20091210 16:03:12< Zarel> It might be fairly interesting to have them talk about humans like mythological creatures.
20091210 16:03:15< Zarel> Well, humanoids.
20091210 16:03:38< zookeeper> Zarel, haldric passed through there, as did the crown prince
20091210 16:04:01< Zarel> But how long ago?
20091210 16:04:04< zookeeper> (both kicked their arses presumably, so i'd imagine they don't like humans very much)
20091210 16:04:16< zookeeper> depends on the time
20091210 16:04:33< esr> Once they arrive, they'd fight trolls, dwarves, elves, perhaps undead.
20091210 16:04:34< Zarel> It could be one of those "Legends mention them, but no one's ever seen one" thing.
20091210 16:04:59< Zarel> I mean, if they had their butts kicked, then they could even think of humans like humans think of dragons!
20091210 16:05:01< zookeeper> esr, woses. everyone would want to fight woses with drakes
20091210 16:05:09< Zarel> They meet a peasant: "OH GODS RUN FOR YOUR LIFE"
20091210 16:05:53< esr> OK, in *my* version of history "Morogor" was something like an empire on the Old Continent.  They'd likely have had contact with the ancestors of the Wesfolk, and hate undead and orcs like poison.
20091210 16:05:59< zookeeper> well, peasants do inflict pierce...
20091210 16:06:53< Zarel> Meh, sounds too generic.
20091210 16:07:11< Zarel> Who _doesn't_ hate undead and orcs, other than orcs, who only hate undead, and undead, who only hate orcs?
20091210 16:07:18< zookeeper> in the context of this campaign it probably wouldn't matter where morogor is/was
20091210 16:07:26< esr> I think I'll leave the nature of the catastrophe that destroyed Morogor carefully ubspecified.  Could be a campaign hook.
20091210 16:08:10< Zarel> Just once, I'd like to meet a race that _doesn't_ hate undead.
20091210 16:08:36< esr> I had specific evenrts in mind.
20091210 16:08:39< zookeeper> bats? :P
20091210 16:08:51< Zarel> Maybe drakes could just be like "Oh, those undead, they're fine as long as they don't bother us"
20091210 16:09:06< Zarel> And then the undead could just be like "ATTACK ThEM? ARE YOU INSANE EVERY ONE OF THEM DOES FIRE DAMAGE"
20091210 16:09:07< esr> Remember the backstory of the Wesfolk. 
20091210 16:10:36< Zarel> Another one on the list is a campaign where you play a protagonist who's actually evil.
20091210 16:10:42< esr> DiD
20091210 16:10:49< esr> Been done.
20091210 16:10:56< Zarel> I wouldn't call Malin evil, just misguided.
20091210 16:11:30< Zarel> I mean, Malin doesn't do a single evil act other than "be undead".
20091210 16:11:55< Zarel> Okay, so he takes the Book from other-necromancer-protagonist guy.
20091210 16:12:26< Zarel> But still. You can see he's trying to be good. I want a campaign where the protagonist is unabashedly evil.
20091210 16:12:33< esr> No, I wrote a chunk of his backstory and I'll say evil all right.  Arrogant to a fault, careless of others and willing to use them as tools - evil doesn't equate to "psychopath" - often it proceeds from "good" motives combined with callousness about outcomes.
20091210 16:12:58< loonycyborg> Zarel: Perhaps TDH?
20091210 16:13:42< Zarel> never heard of TDH?
20091210 16:13:54< zookeeper> gwiti is a psychopath all right
20091210 16:13:59< zookeeper> but psycho evil is boring.
20091210 16:14:09< Zarel> esr: Oh, man, what do you think of the IftU portrayal of him, then?
20091210 16:14:15< esr> Almost all "evil" people are trying to be "good" in some warped way, they're just wrong about the necessary consequences of their methods and turmnto monsters.  Hitler.  Stalin.  Mao.  
20091210 16:14:39< esr> s/turmnto/turn into/
20091210 16:14:44< Zarel> Hey, hey, let's not go around calling Mao evil.
20091210 16:15:18< esr> Deeplyy evil.  Wose than Hitler by the most reliable test - larger pile of bodies.
20091210 16:15:27< esr> s/Wose/Worse/
20091210 16:15:41< esr> Of course Stalin was worse still.
20091210 16:15:54< zookeeper> meh, actually psychopath evil is fine, but usually that's interpreted as "stupid pointless maniac evil" and not the intelligent one.
20091210 16:16:13< Zarel> "Size of pile of bodies" isn't exactly evil.
20091210 16:16:56< Zarel> I'm sure a doctor has a larger pile of bodies than your average civilian, if we interpret "failed to save" as "killed"
20091210 16:17:14< esr> Zarel: That's casuistry.
20091210 16:17:59< Zarel> ? What do you mean?
20091210 16:18:28< Zarel> If the difference is intent, then I doubt Mao intended to kill all the people he's accused of causing the death of.
20091210 16:18:45< esr> Mao was more evil than Hitler because his *orders* and his *ideology* killed more people.  That's kind of where the bullshiyt stops, when you talk about deliberate mass murder and genocide.
20091210 16:19:27< Ivanovic> *neat* http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=396746#p396746
20091210 16:19:29< BroodKiller> wesbot: seen crimson_penguin
20091210 16:19:29< wesbot> BroodKiller: Queried user last spoke 2d 22h ago.  crimson_penguin is currently here and on the channel #wesnoth.
20091210 16:19:34 * zookeeper makes an exception for the hypothetical benevolent genocide where no one gets hurt
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20091210 16:19:44< BroodKiller> ah, sheisse
20091210 16:19:54 * crimson_penguin is working on Frogatto
20091210 16:21:17< BroodKiller> crimson_penguin: I see. You probably don't/didn't have time to check out wxW again, I presume?
20091210 16:21:30< crimson_penguin> nope
20091210 16:21:46< crimson_penguin> I've come to really dislike wxW, as I had originally suspected :-/
20091210 16:22:20< BroodKiller> well, using it on a Mac it's not as straightforward as I hoped it would, especially the stable 2-8-x series
20091210 16:23:35< BroodKiller> could I count on you to give it a second shot if I moved the code to wxW 2-9, which seems to be more friendly overall?
20091210 16:24:43< Zarel> loonycyborg: What's TDH?
20091210 16:24:54< loonycyborg> The Dark Hordes.
20091210 16:25:32< esr> Why was "The Dark Hordes" dropped?  That was before my time.
20091210 16:26:39< Ivanovic> not maintained and not too good
20091210 16:26:47< zookeeper> unmaintained, unfinished and not too good
20091210 16:26:54< crimson_penguin> BroodKiller: maybe
20091210 16:27:03< Zarel> Hey, hey, whoa, no one told me he _ordered_ all those deaths. And here I thought it was all indirect.
20091210 16:27:32< esr> Zarel: You;ve been listening to too many apologists.
20091210 16:27:46< Zarel> ...the Chinese schools definitely never taught me _that_...
20091210 16:27:55< Ivanovic> of course they did not
20091210 16:28:04< esr> Zarel: To desire the end is to desire the means.  
20091210 16:28:10< Ivanovic> why would a countries school teach that the "great leader" was a "mass murder"?
20091210 16:28:14< Ivanovic> ;)
20091210 16:28:28< zookeeper> Ivanovic, err...
20091210 16:28:33< zookeeper> i guess that was intentional ;)
20091210 16:28:55< Zarel> Yeah, well, Western media tends to portray the Chinese as worse than they are.
20091210 16:29:13< Zarel> It's hard to find a neutral source.
20091210 16:29:23< Zarel> Wikipedia seems to be pretty good, though.
20091210 16:30:05< esr> When you order the Red Guard to destroy all pockets of bourgeois resistance to the Cultural Revolution, acting surprised when they commit atrocities doesn't cut it.  You wouldn't ;have let Hitler disavow the SS, would you?  Same reasoning.
20091210 16:30:05< zookeeper> AFAICT western media seems to be pretty sympathetic towards the chinese people, just not towards the government
20091210 16:30:54< esr> zookeeper: Indeed.
20091210 16:30:59< Zarel> Western media seems to conflate the two.
20091210 16:31:14< zookeeper> but then again when is that _not_ true? chinese media is surely pretty sympathetic towards, for example, the tibetan average joe, just not their leaders :p
20091210 16:31:29< loonycyborg> There aren't many Stalin apologists here :P Though he was kinda fluffy kitten compared to Hitler..
20091210 16:31:57< Zarel> Actually, Chinese media is sympathetic to Tibetan leaders, too. They're just not too sympathetic towards separationism.
20091210 16:31:57< zookeeper> loonycyborg, isn't stalin somewhat back in fashion in russia?
20091210 16:32:32< Zarel> loonycyborg: Depends on where "here" is. Stalin's pretty popular in China (as is Mao)
20091210 16:32:33< loonycyborg> Maybe, but not too much AFAICT
20091210 16:32:40< esr> loonycyborg: Actually, Stalin killed more people.  Hitler only offed about 12 million people; Stalin killed 22-23 million in the engineered Ukrainian famines alone, never mind the Great Purge.
20091210 16:32:59< esr> Hitler was a piker, comparitively speaking.
20091210 16:33:33< Zarel> Hitler did more invading of neighboring countries, though.
20091210 16:33:46< loonycyborg> esr: I doubt that the famine was engineered. I'm more likely to believe in stupidity :P
20091210 16:33:51< esr> Hitler tried to kill the Jews and failed.  Stalin aimed to wipe entire peoples ffrom the pages of history and succeed.
20091210 16:33:51< Ivanovic> Zarel: ehm, you know how WW2 started?
20091210 16:34:08< Ivanovic> that was with hitler and stalin deviding poland between them
20091210 16:34:18< esr> Ivanovic is right.
20091210 16:34:33< Zarel> Ah. Well, I was referring to Mao.
20091210 16:34:33< Ivanovic> so both had "ambitions" regarding gaining territory
20091210 16:34:54< esr> The Russians were stomping little countries in Easternn Eutrope when Hitler was still a joke in a beer hall.
20091210 16:35:26< Zarel> Oh, yeah, forgot about that.
20091210 16:35:36< esr> Mao, apparently, didn't run invasions because he found enough people to kill at home.
20091210 16:36:01< Ivanovic> (thanks god hitler was too dumb in the east to stop at the border they agreed upon with the russions resulting in a two front war for the germans which made it almost impossible to win anything, if they had concentrated on defeating the west (and conquering great britain, too) the war might have ended differently)
20091210 16:38:04< esr> Ivanovic: As is probably obvious, I've studied that period closely.
20091210 16:38:16< Zarel> As is probably obvious, I haven't at all.
20091210 16:38:25< Zarel> Well, I've studied parts of it in moderate detail.
20091210 16:38:32< zookeeper> Zarel, i wonder, what's the standard justification nowadays in chinese media for all that trouble-making in tibet? is it just "it's part of china, the separatists are the ones causing all the problems"?
20091210 16:38:47< Ivanovic> as is obvious, this stuff is the normal stuff that is done in schools in germany (since it is our history)
20091210 16:38:52< Zarel> zookeeper: Which trouble-making are you referring to?
20091210 16:39:25< esr> Zarel: Your problem is l;ikely that you've bought into academic historians; they tend to lean rather left-wing.
20091210 16:39:40< Zarel> Ivanovic: Yeah, the Germans are kind of nice about admitting to what they did and teaching the history. Unlike the Japanese... :/
20091210 16:39:41< loonycyborg> esr: What little Easternn Europe countries you're talking about? Before WWII soviets didn't gain any territories that weren't part of the empire before WWI.
20091210 16:40:22< esr> loonycyborg: I was thinking of the reconquest of the Baltics and the attempt on Finland, specifically.
20091210 16:40:47< loonycyborg> Yes. They were parts of russian empire.
20091210 16:41:09< loonycyborg> For many centuries.
20091210 16:41:55< esr> loonycyborg: Not "many centuries".  Don't forget the Polish-Lithuanian and Swedish empires.
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20091210 16:42:45< Zarel> esr: I dunno... are Chinese academic historians usually left-wing?
20091210 16:42:45< Zarel> Is the phrase "left-wing" even valid when talking about China? o_O
20091210 16:42:45< esr> Much of what is now western Russia and the YUkraine was under Polish-Lithuanian rule until 1795.
20091210 16:43:17< loonycyborg> esr: Yes. They tried to invade us themselves and failed :P
20091210 16:44:00< zookeeper> Zarel, well, for example all that stuff on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#Human_rights
20091210 16:44:07< esr> Zarel:American academic tend to hacve a softer spot for the Maoist line than they shoould.  Someday, our culture will be sane and "Marxist" will be as vile an insult as "Nzi", but that day is not yet.
20091210 16:44:53< Zarel> zookeeper: Seriously, you'll have to specify which trouble-making in Tibet. A brief summary of what I learned about China-Tibet history: "Tibet has always been part of China, but they had relative autonomy. When the Communists took power again, they freed the slaves, and most Tibetans welcomed them, but the Dalai Lama threw a fit and left."
20091210 16:45:46< esr> Oh my *goddes*.
20091210 16:46:06< zookeeper> right
20091210 16:46:11< esr> The historical howlers in that one could fill a book.
20091210 16:47:24-!- Zarel_ [n=Zarel@x-160-94-92-245.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091210 16:47:27< Zarel> "Since then, there have been some rebellions, but they've mostly been suppressed."
20091210 16:47:27< Zarel> I'm going to brb to a better interwebs connection.
20091210 16:47:27-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
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20091210 16:49:50< loonycyborg> This is like in that Zadornov's joke: "You Russians are agressive. You attacked Swedes by Poltava" :P
20091210 16:50:29< Zarel> zookeeper: Sorry, bad internet connection; never got the link to Wikipedia:Tibet#Human_rights
20091210 16:50:49< Zarel> As far as we know, Tibetan human rights are no better or worse than in mainland China.
20091210 16:52:13< Zarel> Actually, the internet connection is still bad here. I'm just going to walk back to the CSci building. See you all in around ten minutes.
20091210 16:52:36-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091210 16:55:42< esr> Sigh.  Zarel needs to learn that if a Communist tells you the sky is blue, you should assume it has turned green while you weren't looking.
20091210 16:56:40< CIA-12> ivanovic * r40181 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-units/de.po): updated German translation
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20091210 17:00:53< Zarel> I dunno.
20091210 17:01:35< Zarel> Half the time, Wikipedia articles describe the true situation as closer to what I learned from China, and half the time it's closer to what I learned from the US.
20091210 17:03:20< esr> Treating Wikipdeia as a reliable source on politics and hiatory isn't wise either; those articles tend to get camped on by zealots for various causes.  It's vbetter on stuff that can be more objectively checked - mathh, engineering, CS.
20091210 17:03:59< ardesh> cybersex?
20091210 17:04:59< loonycyborg> esr: Wikipedia's still more like to be reliable than outright propaganda or local educational institutions :P
20091210 17:05:03< Zarel> True, but it at least tends to be more neutral than US media or Chinese media.
20091210 17:05:51< Zarel> Many Americans I've spoken to describe China with things I know outright to be false, from having actually lived there.
20091210 17:06:13< esr> Zarel: "More varied in viewpoint" is not the same thing as "more beutral".  Especially not when many of the viewpoints are nutty.
20091210 17:07:22< Zarel> Part of the problem is that China's wary of Western journalists, partially due to how they're usually portrayed in Western media. It's kind of a Catch-22.
20091210 17:07:46< loonycyborg> esr: Have you tried comparing wikipedia articles from different language wikipedias?
20091210 17:08:00< loonycyborg> They probably will have different biases.
20091210 17:08:22< esr> loonycyborg: No, all three of my non-English languages are rusty.
20091210 17:08:33< loonycyborg> Maybe by comparing them more truth can be found :P
20091210 17:10:21< Zarel> Hrm.
20091210 17:10:24< Zarel> Lemme see.
20091210 17:10:53< esr> Here is a rule I have found to be effective: The more an ideological group seeks power over others, the more their hiistorical accounts tend to be full of lies. 
20091210 17:11:07< Zarel> Chinese Wikipedia or Baidupedia?
20091210 17:13:20< Zarel> Hey, Chinese Wikipedia has more quotes from the Commies than English Wikipedia does.
20091210 17:13:49< Ivanovic> Zarel: ehm, from where are you in the internet=
20091210 17:13:56< Ivanovic> from china or from "rest of the world"?
20091210 17:14:17< Zarel> Ivanovic: I'm in the USA right now.
20091210 17:14:23< fendrin> esr: The wml of deadwater looks good and clean. What says wmllint about it?
20091210 17:14:26< Ivanovic> since one problem with internet from china is that the "great digital wall" does some basic censoring as in "blocking sites"
20091210 17:14:51< Zarel> Yes, well, Wikipedia isn't blocked in China these days.
20091210 17:14:56< esr> fendrin: I hagree it looks good and clean.  I have not run wmllint on it yet.
20091210 17:14:59< Zarel> Although the gov't is being stupid and blocking YouTube.
20091210 17:15:15< esr> fendrin: I'm not expecting major issues.
20091210 17:15:26 * Ivanovic remebers that the chinese gov forced google to filter search results
20091210 17:15:38< Zarel> Oh, man. A year ago, China was at the least internet-censorship it's ever been. Not a single site I frequented was blocked.
20091210 17:16:03< Zarel> Ivanovic: A lot of people blame Google for consenting, which is really unfair.
20091210 17:16:48< Zarel> Especially to me as a Chinese citizen. If Google had really done as a lot of Americans proposed, and refused, I would've had no access to Google at all, which I don't think would have made me any more free.
20091210 17:17:06< Ivanovic> jupp
20091210 17:17:10< fendrin> esr: It's good to include a low amount of work campaign. That gives us the chance to polish the campaigns we have already in mainline.
20091210 17:17:32< Ivanovic> stuff that the chinese force being censord is IIRC about the tiananmen square protests from '89
20091210 17:18:39< esr> Another good rule: The more a government engages in censorship, the more its history books will be full of lies.
20091210 17:19:34< esr> fendrin: Since you mention that...
20091210 17:20:01< Zarel> Yeah, the gov't is all "We don't want to talk about it" wrt Tiananmen. But they don't block it completely.
20091210 17:20:02< esr> ...last scenario of DM needs a rethink.  It is anticlimactic as is.
20091210 17:21:26< Zarel> If you actually google "Tiananmen Incident", this is the first result: http://knol.google.com/k/六四事件
20091210 17:22:09< Ivanovic> Zarel: though in general this *totally off topic*-stuff clearly does not belong into the #wesnoth-dev chan
20091210 17:22:10< esr> fendrin: "Dead Water" looks like being the lowest-effort lift I've ever done. 
20091210 17:22:40< Zarel> Ivanovic: Where do you suggest we move it?
20091210 17:22:43< esr> Ivanovic: We got here from the nature of evil.  Don't be hard on him.
20091210 17:23:05< Ivanovic> i know that we got this way in a discussion
20091210 17:23:20< Ivanovic> but we are rather far away from the nature of evil as relevant for wesnoth by now
20091210 17:23:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20091210 17:23:32< Zarel> Oh, I remember that.
20091210 17:23:48< Zarel> Yeah, feel free to suggest an alternate channel.
20091210 17:23:50< fendrin> esr: I have had a thought about what zookeeper wrote. When entering the manor the evil guy whose name I don't remember activates some sort of selfdestruction and seals the entrence.
20091210 17:24:11< Ivanovic> no idea, though i think there is not too much to really discuss in those regards
20091210 17:24:29< Zarel> That reminds me, I have an Internet connection again!
20091210 17:24:37< Zarel> Now where were the two campaigns I was going to try?
20091210 17:24:49< fendrin> esr: He is fleeing through a portal to reach the land of the death and delfador has to make it to the portal before the manor colapses and burries him.
20091210 17:25:25< esr> fendrin: Thatv sounds like it could be interesting.
20091210 17:25:47< fendrin> The final confrontation is in the land of the death. Maybe delfador is joined by former allies in that plane.
20091210 17:26:15< esr> Ah, now that could be fun.  But...
20091210 17:26:37< esr> ...Delf's already been there. Could we dosomething different?
20091210 17:26:49< fendrin> The collapsing manor could be coded a bit like the caves flooding with water in utbs scenario (6?).
20091210 17:28:11< fendrin> esr: So no return to the land of the death?
20091210 17:29:01< esr> fendrin: Hard to see how we could top what we've already done with that.
20091210 17:29:15< esr> And it would be a repeat.
20091210 17:29:30< esr> I like the collapsing-manor idea, though.
20091210 17:30:01< esr> Gives me a good idea for a last scene:
20091210 17:31:08< esr> The hunt in the manor, as it collapses, takes place at night.  If they win, they emerge, with it falling to ruin behind them, just at the break of dawn...
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20091210 17:38:59< fendrin> The lich has found a way to open a portal to another dimension with the book of crelanu. He has opened a portal to hell and demons from the underworld beginn to swarm the castle. Delfador has to find a way to reverse the portals direction so the lich and his demons are going to be sucked through the portal.
20091210 17:39:30< esr> Better.  At least it's a different otherworld.
20091210 17:39:52< fendrin> And some more units to show.
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20091210 17:50:47< zookeeper> i don't see why a return to the land of the dead would necessarily be uninteresting. i mean, it's a land of the dead, you can have pretty much whatever you want there.
20091210 17:51:09< zookeeper> i'm sure it's a big place with lots of cool stuff and not just the little area you saw previously.
20091210 17:56:10< fendrin> Let's stack the dimensions. Only from the land of death, Sagus is able to open a door to the next deeper plane, the underworld.
20091210 17:57:01< fendrin> He plans to pipe lots of that mobs through both dimensions. To sell them to ashenviere as pets.
20091210 18:07:50-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091210 18:08:24< esr> "i'm sure it's a big place with lots of cool stuff and not just the little area you saw previously." - well, why call it the land of the dead, then?  I think we would do better to adopt D&D's cosmology - land of the dead is just one of the Inner Planes, or something like that.
20091210 18:10:46< fendrin> Fantasy III comes to my mind.
20091210 18:11:02< esr> Dunno it.
20091210 18:11:09< fendrin> The Wraiths of Nikademus or something similar.
20091210 18:11:21 * esr googles
20091210 18:11:59< esr> No good hits.
20091210 18:12:20< fendrin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantasie
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20091210 18:13:19< fendrin> The combat system was nice for the times.
20091210 18:14:46< esr> Ah.
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20091210 18:16:50< fendrin> You had to travel to several different dimensions to solve the game. Plane of Light. Plane of Darkness. And so on. 
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20091210 18:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 65 bugs, 248 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091210 18:29:43< AI0867> fendrin: while the frogatto WML parser does some validation, the schemata don't seem to contain much at all, so I doubt it's worth the effort
20091210 18:34:13< zookeeper> esr, well, even if it was just a plane for the dead, i'm sure there's a lot of cool being-dead-related things it could have :P
20091210 18:34:26< zookeeper> just have to come up with some...humm...
20091210 18:35:01< fendrin> AI0867: Sorry, I don't get your point.
20091210 18:37:21< zookeeper> well, sagus could conjure up the spirits of people delfador has killed.
20091210 18:38:08< AI0867> fendrin: there's a partially done validator (called 'wmltest') in data/tools right now, which I've mostly rewritten (into 'wmlvalidator') at home
20091210 18:38:32< AI0867> I looked at frogatto to start, but while the idea was good, not much appeared to have been done with it
20091210 18:39:04< AI0867> about the mailinglist, is anyone going to reply to that heise.de spamL?
20091210 18:41:04< fendrin> AI0867: Isn't all of frogattos wml checked through it?
20091210 18:41:51< AI0867> I only see definitions for about 5 tags
20091210 18:42:29< AI0867> http://code.google.com/p/frogatto/source/browse/trunk/schema.cfg
20091210 18:42:32< fendrin> AI0867: Frogatto's wml isn't much mighter as far as I have seen.
20091210 18:42:42< AI0867> correction, 6
20091210 18:43:36< AI0867> http://code.google.com/p/frogatto/source/browse/trunk/data/objects/playable/frogatto_playable.cfg <-- plenty of tags that aren't in /schema.cfg
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20091210 18:46:07< fendrin> AI0867: Ah, I thought we were talking about the amount that the schema tag can handle. The language of frogatto wml doesn't them to be mighter than what the schema tag can describe. 
20091210 18:46:30< AI0867> yeah, unlike wesnoth's WML
20091210 18:48:23< fendrin> AI0867: ?
20091210 18:55:28< AI0867> the validity of keys in certain tags depends on whether they were defined in different tags
20091210 18:55:46< AI0867> see the keys of [movement_costs]
20091210 18:56:17< AI0867> I'm off for a bit
20091210 19:00:10< fendrin> AI0867: I am not allowed to view that side of the wiki. It's only for a special group to access.
20091210 19:19:41< AI0867> side of the wiki?
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20091210 19:22:47< fendrin> AI0867: right.
20091210 19:23:27< fendrin> AI0867: Now I got it. The red links are for empty items.
20091210 19:35:17< Ivanovic> esr: regarding "land of the dead" i prefer some way eg like it is done in the black jewels
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20091210 19:35:58< Ivanovic> there you got a whole "realm" (okay, more like some parallel dimension) which is for the dead whose spirit is not yet completely gone
20091210 19:36:20< Ivanovic> (okay, this realm is called "hell" / "the dark realm")
20091210 19:36:51< Ivanovic> there are two other realms ("shadow realm" and "light realm") and each realm is completely seperated from each other
20091210 19:37:30< Ivanovic> there are only some special gates to travel between the realms and only very few people have the knowledge how to use them
20091210 19:39:19< esr> Ivanovic: Doesn't fit the way the land of the dead has already been depicted too well, unless the one in DM is the shadow realm.
20091210 19:39:52< Ivanovic> esr: no need to have such a split into three realms
20091210 19:40:25< Ivanovic> though in general it is IMO totally fine to have one whole realm just for the dead
20091210 19:40:38< Ivanovic> there those, still too strong to fade into "the final end" reside
20091210 19:41:30< fendrin> The frogatto parser just gave me the first valid wesnoth config object. 
20091210 19:57:23< AI0867> http://wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=396742#p396742
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20091210 20:01:17< mordante> servus
20091210 20:18:03-!- silene [n=silene@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091210 20:18:09< silene> hi
20091210 20:19:23< mordante> hi silene 
20091210 20:41:03< fendrin> hi silene
20091210 20:41:20< fendrin> silene: are you familiar with the wml preprocesor?
20091210 20:45:47-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091210 20:52:41< silene> fendrin: yes, i wrote it
20091210 20:54:07< fendrin> silene: Am I right with: The preprocessor adds that inverted ? sign line commands in the string for resolving macros and the parser does resolve them?
20091210 20:55:19< silene> no, once the wml reaches the parser, there is no macro left, only tags
20091210 20:57:33< fendrin> And what are that lines beginning with the \376 character for?
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20091210 20:59:45< silene> they tell the line number and the textdomain of the following wml
20091210 21:01:12< fendrin> silene: At what time is the translation done? 
20091210 21:01:41< silene> very late, at the time the text is displayed on screen
20091210 21:02:24< fendrin> silene: but the parser stores the textdomain in a config object?
20091210 21:02:34< silene> in each string
20091210 21:03:03< fendrin> oh, okay.
20091210 21:03:27< fendrin> The line numbers are only to give a better feedback if something goes wrong when parsing or executing?
20091210 21:03:33< amikrop> Excuse me for being offtopic, but if somebody has a replay of HttT - Siege of Elensefar in Normal or Hard, I would really appreciate if they could share it with me. I have tried everything for a long time but it seems I have no hope of beating the scenario. Thank you very much, in advance.
20091210 21:03:57< Ivanovic> amikrop: try it in #wesnoth
20091210 21:04:07< Ivanovic> since this question is *not* development related...
20091210 21:04:09< Ivanovic> ;)
20091210 21:07:45< amikrop> Ivanovic: I know it is offtopic, but I thought I would ask it here, too. I am sorry.
20091210 21:09:05< Ivanovic> has Soliton not answered you in #wesnoth ?
20091210 21:09:27< Ivanovic> has he not said that he will try to get you a replay showing how it can be done?
20091210 21:09:45< Ivanovic> just be patient, don't expect things to be done within 5mins
20091210 21:10:03< amikrop> Ivanovic: Sure.
20091210 21:10:16< silene> fendrin: yes
20091210 21:11:06< fendrin> silene: cool, that are good news.
20091210 21:13:58< mordante> wesbot, seen ilor
20091210 21:13:58< wesbot> mordante: The person with the nick ilor last spoke 8d ago.  7d 6h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
20091210 21:14:02< mordante> :-(
20091210 21:15:17< Ivanovic> grzywacz, deekay: have you already inquired at the hostel how things are supposed to work for late checkin or others checking in for you?
20091210 21:15:27< Ivanovic> grzywacz: yes, i'd like to get booking done "soon"
20091210 21:16:24< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen YogiHH
20091210 21:16:24< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick YogiHH last spoke 9d 22h ago.  9d 20h ago person left:
20091210 21:30:49< CIA-12> mordante * r40182 /trunk/ (9 files in 5 dirs): Added a new gui2 timer engine.
20091210 21:52:35< mordante> esr, any opinion on this bug http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=560069 or is it fixed in trunk?
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20091210 21:53:51< esr> mordante: Looking...
20091210 21:54:40< esr> mordante: I'll grep for Runesmith...
20091210 21:57:24< esr> mordante: Odd.  I can find no references to either Runemaster or Runesmith in HttT, and that matches my memory of the campaign.  I wonder how he triggered this?
20091210 21:59:45< zookeeper> there ain't no runesmiths in HttT
20091210 22:04:49< Ivanovic> http://pastebin.com/m6efa8d77
20091210 22:04:58< Ivanovic> no runesmith and no runemaster in httt!
20091210 22:05:05< mordante> esr, the problem seems to be in SoF 
20091210 22:05:17< Ivanovic> the one in SoF is specified in SoF
20091210 22:05:24< Ivanovic> (the campaign, not the scenario!)
20091210 22:06:20< esr> His claim is confusing.  I read the bug as asserting that there was a problem in wesnoth-httt.
20091210 22:06:35< Crab_> but, his patch is against SoF
20091210 22:06:37< Ivanovic> esr: somehow this seems to be some "2 in 1" bug report
20091210 22:06:46< Ivanovic> and it does not make sense since his claims are not really valid
20091210 22:07:26< Ivanovic> since in SoF there is a unit defined that has the id "Dwarvish Runemaster_alt" and this one is just used in the advances_to tag
20091210 22:08:22 * esr tosses this one to zookeeper
20091210 22:08:35< Ivanovic> for me this report makes exactly *zero* sense
20091210 22:08:44< esr> Agreed.
20091210 22:09:04< Crab_> then, maybe ask him for a save ?
20091210 22:11:29< zookeeper> err, i'm not sure how the _alt thing is supposed to be in SoF...
20091210 22:11:52< zookeeper> i _think_ it's originally intended to work so that thursagan can advance to arcanister but no one else can't
20091210 22:12:02< zookeeper> that's the only speciality which makes any sense to me
20091210 22:12:04< mordante> isn't that because there happened to be two different rune masters?
20091210 22:12:13< zookeeper> maybe
20091210 22:13:46< mordante> I'm off night
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20091210 22:43:25< shadowmaster> I always thought that SoF's runemasters were intended to have different stats than the mainline units
20091210 22:44:00< shadowmaster> ISTR that they had different sprites too in the 1.0 era
20091210 22:44:18< zookeeper> yeah, maybe they were, but it was so long ago that it doesn't really matter
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20091210 23:05:07< noy> Ivanovic: still around?
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20091210 23:42:54< Ivanovic> noy: jupp
20091210 23:43:08< noy> non-private and look what I posted in the forums
20091210 23:43:18< Ivanovic> noy: in generel: just write what is up, once i am back, i will read it (if you used my nick closely to the message)
20091210 23:43:46< Ivanovic> (that is: no matter if this is in one of the #wesnoth* chans or in a query, my client will show me the stuff once i am back
20091210 23:43:47< Ivanovic> ;)
20091210 23:49:45< Ivanovic> AI0867, boucman, Crab_, crimson_penguin, deekay, esr, loonycyborg, shadowmaster, silene, Soliton, zookeeper, everyone else who cares: what do you think of 1.7.10 tomorrow or on saturday?
20091210 23:49:52< crimson_penguin> uh oh
20091210 23:50:08< Ivanovic> yes, still called beta since we got by far too many bugs left before we can enter rc state
20091210 23:50:09< boucman> fine here, nothing that can't wait for the next release
20091210 23:50:12< crimson_penguin> I won't be able to package early tomorrow, maybe later
20091210 23:50:23< Crab_> Ivanovic: if it's still beta, that's fine 
20091210 23:50:25< shadowmaster> argh
20091210 23:50:29< shadowmaster> okay okay, let it go
20091210 23:50:30< crimson_penguin> saturday would be fine I guess
20091210 23:50:51< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: if i release tomorrow (as in "maybe in 15 to 20h") i won't announce it until some time saturday, as in about 24h after tagging
20091210 23:50:56 * deekay has no opinion since he has no time lately at all :((((...
20091210 23:51:57< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: right, but it does take me ~3.5 hours+ to upload, so if I start late... well, I'll probably be on time anyway :P
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20091210 23:54:23< Ivanovic> AI0867, boucman, Crab_, deekay, grzywacz, mordante, noyga, Turuk: regarding fosdem and booking the beds in the hostel:
20091210 23:54:37< Ivanovic> 1) is everyone of you fine with 2go4.be (the one we were in last year)
20091210 23:54:49< boucman> ok for me
20091210 23:54:55< Ivanovic> 2) how should we split things regarding booking, any idea who will arrive when?
20091210 23:57:43< boucman> not yet, i hae to ask the enlightenment peoples
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 11 00:00:12 2009