--- Log opened Fri Dec 11 00:00:12 2009
20091211 00:01:15< esr> Ivanovic: No blockers.
20091211 00:02:09< Ivanovic> boucman: i am not sure how to best handle deekay and grzywacz who will likely arrive *really* late on friday evening
20091211 00:02:23< Ivanovic> deekay: uhm, do you have a credit card?
20091211 00:02:36< deekay> Ivanovic: grzywacz has
20091211 00:02:42< Ivanovic> that is: if one of you two is going to book the beds for you so that you can get in, you will need one
20091211 00:02:48< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20091211 00:03:07< deekay> I *think* grzywacz has
20091211 00:03:07< Ivanovic> as other option there would have been the SoC debit card, though you would have to have money left on them
20091211 00:03:38< deekay> Mine SoC card is almost not used.
20091211 00:03:49-!- esr [n=chatzill@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 00:04:09< Ivanovic> deekay: IIRC the SoC card is a visa card, so it *should* work for booking, too
20091211 00:04:13-!- silene [n=silene@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20091211 00:04:49< Ivanovic> (that is i think you only need to have a CC to proof "yeah, i am serious" and to have it linked for getting in, real payment is done there in cash)
20091211 00:04:52< deekay> I guess that would involve paying via the i-net?
20091211 00:05:18< deekay> ah, I see
20091211 00:05:25< Ivanovic> no, they put some 5€ on your CC as "booking fee" but the real money for the beds is to be paid at the hostel
20091211 00:05:49< deekay> That should work I think.
20091211 00:06:41< Ivanovic> though the two of you should mail the hostel anyway, just to make sure how things are handled regarding linens
20091211 00:07:00< Ivanovic> that is: if others can book for you and you fill out the cards later on (as one other option)
20091211 00:08:21-!- Vetinari [n=lukjad00@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 00:09:06< deekay> I'll try to keep that in mind.. unfortunately it's huge mess here (in RL) for me ATM
20091211 00:11:22< Ivanovic> okay
20091211 00:11:51< Ivanovic> fendrin: what about you and fosdem?
20091211 00:11:55< Ivanovic> will you join in or not?
20091211 00:12:17< Ivanovic> that is: currently you are not listed in the wiki at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Fosdem2010
20091211 00:15:00< fendrin> Ivanovic: I will join in
20091211 00:15:55-!- BroodKiller [n=Jakobs@chello087207048099.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20091211 00:16:12< Ivanovic> then please list yourself in the wiki!
20091211 00:16:45< Ivanovic> somehow it might be a good idea if those staying till monday booked together and those staying till sunday booked together
20091211 00:16:56< Ivanovic> (that is: if we get some 6 / 4 split)
20091211 00:19:50-!- esr [n=chatzill@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 00:21:13< fendrin> Ivanovic: done
20091211 00:27:20-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 00:39:54< CIA-12> ilor * r40183 /trunk/src/ (clipboard.cpp playturn.cpp): fix build issues wrt missing #includes on windows/mingw
20091211 00:40:20-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 00:47:18-!- ilor [n=ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 00:48:44-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 00:48:53-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@adsl-76-202-22-180.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 00:57:41< shadowmaster> ssh: Could not resolve hostname www.wesnoth.org: Name or service not known
20091211 00:57:56< shadowmaster> weeee.
20091211 00:59:24< Crab_> shadowmaster: it's 65.18.193.12 over here..
20091211 00:59:31< shadowmaster> I know.
20091211 00:59:39< Crab_> shadowmaster: your provider messed up something?
20091211 00:59:47< shadowmaster> the wlan router is playing stick tricks with me, as usual at this time
20091211 00:59:51< Crab_> ah
20091211 00:59:53< shadowmaster> sick
20091211 01:01:20< shadowmaster> Crab_: do you know how to administrate a MediaWiki wiki?
20091211 01:02:14< Crab_> you mean 'installation/configuration/upgrades', or 'from-web-interface administration' ?
20091211 01:02:42< Crab_> I installed it a few times, and played with it a bit
20091211 01:04:54< shadowmaster> Crab_: I mean as in "can help me figure out why Firefox' search provider installation doesn't work with wiki.wesnoth.ogr"
20091211 01:05:26< Crab_> you mean 'a firefox plugin to search on the wiki' ?
20091211 01:06:10< shadowmaster> no, Firefox has the ability to add new search providers to the search bar; MediaWiki seems to have such a thing by default but it currently wdoes't work here:
20091211 01:06:13< shadowmaster> "Iceweasel could not download the search plugin from:
20091211 01:06:13< shadowmaster> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/opensearch_desc.php"
20091211 01:06:31< Crab_> ah, got it
20091211 01:06:35< Crab_> yes, i'll take a look now
20091211 01:06:56< Crab_> note that our mediawiki version is very old
20091211 01:07:23< Crab_> and also note that there's a lot of rewrite rules on the server, to prettify the URLs ( afair, done by Soliton)
20091211 01:07:38< Crab_> they might hide that /opensearch_desc.php from access
20091211 01:07:51< shadowmaster> hm.
20091211 01:08:24< shadowmaster> well, some clients apparently tried to access it before and got directed to /srv/www/html/opensearch_desc.php according to the logs
20091211 01:08:50-!- JonW1 [n=chatzill@cpc2-finc11-0-0-cust855.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 01:09:02-!- want_my_ip [n=shadowm@190.22.122.155] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 01:09:06-!- want_my_ip [n=shadowm@190.22.122.155] has quit [Client Quit]
20091211 01:09:07< Crab_> so, we need 1) check if opensearch_desc.php is there, if no, upgrade mediawiki or backport that thing  2) check rewrite rules to see if that script is accessible (now it is not - check that http://wiki.wesnoth.org/opensearch_desc.php redirerects to a wiki page http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Opensearch_desc.php )
20091211 01:10:30< Crab_> and you are the one with ssh access to wesnoth.org , so..
20091211 01:10:56< shadowmaster> /mw/opensearch_desc.php exists at least
20091211 01:11:03-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit []
20091211 01:11:17< Crab_> good. then the problem is with rewrite rules
20091211 01:11:37< shadowmaster> th amount of rewrite rules boggles my mind
20091211 01:11:52< Crab_> well, we only need 1 more :)
20091211 01:12:04 * shadowmaster pities poor apache
20091211 01:12:19 * Crab_ prefers nginx for rewrites
20091211 01:13:29< Crab_> there's an alternate way, btw
20091211 01:13:44< Crab_> that is, change <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="/opensearch_desc.php" title="Wesnoth (English)" /> line to point to some other location :)
20091211 01:14:07< Crab_> but this is a bigger hack :)
20091211 01:14:55< shadowmaster> can't keepreading the rewrite rules, I'm too confused already
20091211 01:15:37< Crab_> for example, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/skins/glamdrol/headerbg.jpg is served directly
20091211 01:16:05< Crab_> so, find the line that does that and make a copy that'll apply to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/opensearch_desc.php 
20091211 01:16:43< shadowmaster> well, skins is on the mediawiki root (DOCUMENT_ROOT/mw)
20091211 01:16:51< shadowmaster> so is opensearch_desc.php already.
20091211 01:17:22< Crab_> can you pastebin/PM those rules ?
20091211 01:21:08< shadowmaster> Crab_: sent a forum PM
20091211 01:25:16< Crab_> seems that something is missing from there (
20091211 01:25:23-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20091211 01:25:37< Crab_> is there a .htaccess in the wiki dir ?
20091211 01:25:57< Crab_> i.e. I don't see the part that *hides* index.php from wiki url's
20091211 01:26:27< Crab_> so, it must be in some other place, either in the corresponding vhost cfg or in .htaccess
20091211 01:26:54< Crab_> shadowmaster: i.e. line similar to #RewriteRule ^wiki/(.*)$ mw/index.php?title=$1  , but uncommented
20091211 01:29:07-!- JonW1 [n=chatzill@cpc2-finc11-0-0-cust855.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]"]
20091211 01:30:08< Crab_> shadowmaster: but, if mediawiki is served by same apache,  it might be possible to hack what we need even from this file
20091211 01:30:17-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 01:30:23< Soliton> does the search thing work now?
20091211 01:30:48-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 01:30:50< shadowmaster> Crab_: I suppose that the rule is in the site configuration in /etc/apache2/blah then
20091211 01:30:57< Crab_> Soliton: yes
20091211 01:31:00< Crab_> Soliton: thanks
20091211 01:31:17< shadowmaster> Firefox seems to want a restart before checking
20091211 01:31:34< shadowmaster> yes, it works now :)
20091211 01:31:37< shadowmaster> Espreon: ^
20091211 01:32:08< Crab_> not that it finds anything :)
20091211 01:32:23< shadowmaster> nah, I succesffully found [game_config] in vrious articles with it
20091211 01:32:33< Crab_> ah, I was searching for a word too short :)
20091211 01:32:45< Crab_> which wasn't in the index:)
20091211 01:33:03< shadowmaster> out of curiosity, are we missing too much with this older version?
20091211 01:33:14< Espreon> Awesome. :)
20091211 01:33:22< Crab_> shadowmaster: security-wise, not much
20091211 01:33:31< Crab_> shadowmaster: feature-wise, maybe, haven't checked
20091211 01:34:22< shadowmaster> okay, I guess we'd only really want better protection against those spambots
20091211 01:34:57< shadowmaster> unless Aethaeryn knows of any feature we should have
20091211 01:35:37< Crab_> yes, and for that, it's best to use some custom hacks in registration form to mess up with standard bots...
20091211 01:36:04< shadowmaster> which reminds me that spambots are popping up in my nightmares for some reason.
20091211 01:40:11< Crab_> that's bad. ban them :)
20091211 01:42:29< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: talking of the wiki?
20091211 01:42:56-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@adsl-76-202-22-180.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20091211 01:43:21< shadowmaster> maybe, what do you think?
20091211 01:43:35< Aethaeryn> hmmm
20091211 01:43:45< Aethaeryn> what's the problem? too many spambots?
20091211 01:43:50< shadowmaster> didn't we have a FAQ at some point?
20091211 01:44:29< shadowmaster> oh, yes it's hidden in the front page..
20091211 01:45:18< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: since you are the wiki expert, I was wondering if you knew of any newer fatures in MW which we could use
20091211 01:58:59< ilor> mordante: is there a way to store some information (like an int) along with the widgets in a gui2 listbox?
20091211 01:59:29< CIA-12> ilor * r40184 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/lobby_main.cpp: partial work around for bugs #14741 and #14847 -- reselect the previously-selected game on a gamelist update
20091211 01:59:35< CIA-12> ilor * r40185 /trunk/src/gui/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20091211 01:59:35< CIA-12> Partial fix for bug #14741 (chat log scrolling to top on message added). Will now scroll to bottom which is a less dumb thing to do.
20091211 01:59:35< CIA-12> Added a tscrollbar_container::scroll_to_vertical_end() member function in gui as I couldn't find a way to change the scroll position from within dialog code.
20091211 02:09:40-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 02:12:53< Ivanovic> Crab_: yes, the wiki *really* needs to be updated, but we need someone doing the job first
20091211 02:13:19-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@brsg-d9bee745.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 02:13:28< Ivanovic> Crab_: what we especially need is some *effective* way to fight spam in the wiki since IIRC Aethaeryn and zookeeper already complained about excessive amounts of spam in some areas
20091211 02:13:53< shadowmaster> shadowm@wesnoth:~$ ps aux | grep iceweasel
20091211 02:14:02< shadowmaster> maybe it wasn't a good idea to use the same username there after all
20091211 02:14:37< shadowmaster> and I was ready to kill whatever was eating my CPU and making my supposedly local bash session laggy
20091211 02:14:45< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: do you know about http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Combating_spam#Captcha ?
20091211 02:14:46< Crab_> Ivanovic: well, I can be the one which will try to handle that upgrade/antispam stuff, somewhen around next weekend.
20091211 02:15:02< Ivanovic> Crab_: would be really cool
20091211 02:15:16< Ivanovic> Crab_: maybe you can somehow coordinate this with Aethaeryn and shadowmaster?
20091211 02:15:29< Ivanovic> (and Rhonda if you need an account at the server first)
20091211 02:15:56< Crab_> Aethaeryn: captchas are not that effective - bots can bypass them by requiring unsuspecting humans to handle them
20091211 02:16:08< shadowmaster> and Turuk.
20091211 02:16:20< Aethaeryn> Crab_: Note that it is part of a larger page called "Combating spam"
20091211 02:16:41< Turuk> Noted.
20091211 02:16:44< Crab_> Aethaeryn: yes
20091211 02:16:58< shadowmaster> we'll need to announce it on the forums since you'll probably need tof play a bit with mysql's on/off switch
20091211 02:17:01< shadowmaster> ;)
20091211 02:17:28< Aethaeryn> I'd recommend updating to the latest version before installing extensions to prevent problems.
20091211 02:18:03< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes, but later. for start, I can try backuping the DB, taking away the backup, and playing with the upgrade on my territory, and, only then, doing the actual tests and upgrades.
20091211 02:18:08< Turuk> But it's so much more fun when they freak out over a wiki disappearance....
20091211 02:18:23< shadowmaster> Crab_: good luck with grabbing the DB ;)
20091211 02:18:42< Ivanovic> Crab_: the backup is the smallest prob
20091211 02:18:47< shadowmaster> that is, at least the forum database is too big for me to download
20091211 02:18:51< Ivanovic> there are daily backups that you can play with
20091211 02:19:03< Crab_> Ivanovic: even better.
20091211 02:19:18< Ivanovic> (as in "done via mysql-hotcopy" so you can just drop them into your mysql install and directly use them
20091211 02:19:29< Ivanovic> drop/extract the folder that is
20091211 02:19:58< Crab_> shadowmaster: well, I have a couple of colocated servers where I can put that backup to use, so that's not a problem
20091211 02:20:22< Ivanovic> the wiki db has 300MB uncompressed
20091211 02:20:23-!- Chusslove [n=Chusslov@brsg-d9befd4c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 02:20:37< Ivanovic> so it is not too huge to download it and tinker with it afterwards
20091211 02:20:52< Crab_> Ivanovic: is there a way I can get that bkp, apart from asking Rhonda for a shell account ?
20091211 02:21:09< Ivanovic> you should ask for a shell account anyway
20091211 02:21:19< shadowmaster> 300 MB ? *shudders*
20091211 02:21:29< Ivanovic> once you have it i can put a tarball with the latest backup into your account where you fetch it via scp
20091211 02:21:33< Aethaeryn> 300 MB isn't much.
20091211 02:21:33< shadowmaster> you know that anything larger than 10 MB is unfeasible for me ;)
20091211 02:21:46< Ivanovic> i prefer to not offer the tarball in some public place where anybody could fetch it
20091211 02:21:46 * Aethaeryn has more than 60 GB free, and his hard drive is tiny by today's standards.
20091211 02:21:50< Ivanovic> i think you understand this
20091211 02:21:51< Ivanovic> M)
20091211 02:22:44< Ivanovic> that is: shell access is required later on for the "real" update, anyway
20091211 02:23:02< Ivanovic> since it will most likely be more than "extract the tarball and be done", eg stuff like "port the theme"
20091211 02:23:05< Crab_> Ivanovic: well, there's always 'openssl aes-256-cbc -a -salt -in wiki.bkp -out wiki.bkp.enc ' :)
20091211 02:23:25< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: it's not a matter of disk space
20091211 02:23:25< Crab_> Ivanovic: but, yes, shell account will be needed later anyway :)
20091211 02:23:51< shadowmaster> I still have 20 GB free and I'd have more if I purged some local backups
20091211 02:23:51< Ivanovic> considering the normal hours Rhonda is available you should be able to reach her in some 12h
20091211 02:24:07< Crab_> ok
20091211 02:24:10< Ivanovic> considering the normal hours i am available i should *really* head off to bed now
20091211 02:24:18< Ivanovic> n8
20091211 02:24:28 * shadowmaster hands Ivanovic a pillow
20091211 02:24:45< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: Sorry, I guess 7 years of American internet spoiled me.
20091211 02:25:16< ilor> mordante: is it still a bad idea to delete a widget in it's callback handler?
20091211 02:37:55-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit ["Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"]
20091211 02:38:36-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 02:45:52< CIA-12> ilor * r40186 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/lobby_main.cpp: on doubleclick on a player on the playerlist (after the dialog is closed), select the game the player's in
20091211 02:51:46-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit []
20091211 02:59:58-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@CPE-124-191-178-150.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 03:02:31< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: any progress on the libirdya idea?
20091211 03:06:59-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 03:14:01-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit []
20091211 03:15:39-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-195-81-186.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20091211 03:16:10-!- ardesh [n=ardesh@port-92-195-73-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 03:33:05< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: ho ho ho
20091211 03:33:11< shadowmaster> you really thought I'd spend time on it?
20091211 03:38:33-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Connection timed out]
20091211 03:47:50< Aethaeryn> Bah.
20091211 03:48:19< Aethaeryn> < shadowmaster> ho ho ho <- Santa?
20091211 03:48:55< shadowmaster> no, that's not Santa. that's a gratuitous quote.
20091211 03:54:49-!- GobiTheGoblin [n=asdf@e212-54-16-58.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 03:55:01< GobiTheGoblin> Hi all =)
20091211 03:55:17< Aethaeryn> hi
20091211 03:55:48< Aethaeryn> GobiTheGoblin: aren't all goblins dim, weak, or slow in recent versions?
20091211 03:56:11< Aethaeryn> </wesnoth joke>
20091211 03:56:25< GobiTheGoblin> GobiTheGoblin: Well that went over my head :P 
20091211 03:56:36< GobiTheGoblin> Is Jetrel around, by any chance?
20091211 03:57:06< Aethaeryn> Not in this channel.
20091211 03:57:16< shadowmaster> try /query Jetrel
20091211 03:57:18< Aethaeryn> "/whois jetrel" to see if he is elsewhere?
20091211 03:57:44< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: he is, that channel won't appear there
20091211 03:58:06< Aethaeryn> Right, I figure he's in a private channel
20091211 03:58:19< Aethaeryn> idle 6 minutes 29 seconds, in no visible channel.
20091211 03:58:48< GobiTheGoblin> thanks guys =)
20091211 03:59:13< shadowmaster> Aethaeryn: of course I'm in the same place as hi
20091211 03:59:16< shadowmaster> m ;)
20091211 04:02:02-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2d187.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 04:03:38< Aethaeryn> shadowmaster: I'm going to experiment around with making a fairly simple game... Obviously it's nowhere near ready so it doesn't matter that much right now, but I would be interested in that libirdya idea you're proposing. Contact me if there's any progress with the idea?
20091211 04:18:11-!- Ivanovic [n=ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 04:20:00-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20091211 04:40:30< AI0867> Ivanovic: no problems with 1.7.10 or 2go4
20091211 04:43:39-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 04:56:26-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20091211 04:58:55-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db226e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 05:14:50-!- Ivanovic [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2d187.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20091211 05:14:53-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20091211 05:24:38-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@adsl-76-202-22-180.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 05:26:51-!- Turuk [n=administ@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit []
20091211 05:29:30-!- Gambit_ [i=43ea74f4@gateway/web/freenode/x-uqkaanmvhxjikzob] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 05:30:22-!- Gambit_ [i=43ea74f4@gateway/web/freenode/x-uqkaanmvhxjikzob] has quit [Client Quit]
20091211 05:37:05-!- Turuk [n=administ@12.71.128.66] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 05:50:12-!- Turuk [n=administ@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit []
20091211 05:53:24-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@adsl-76-202-22-180.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 06:09:58-!- Turuk [n=administ@12.71.128.66] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 06:47:43-!- Jetrel [n=Jetrel@wesnoth/artist/jetrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 06:50:35 * Jetrel is lurking for potential discussion between myself, Lendrick, kitty, and GobiTheGoblin.  They know I'm coming, no need to pass it on.  Hopefully I'll be awake at the appointed hours.
20091211 06:51:07< Jetrel> well, we didn't really appoint any hours, but we say that for the sake of verbal style
20091211 07:13:22-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-88-133.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 07:22:07< Aethaeryn> hi Jetrel 
20091211 07:22:55 * Jetrel tips hat
20091211 07:38:03-!- Ingmar [i=ingmar@exherbo/developer/ingmar] has quit ["Changing server"]
20091211 07:39:05-!- Ingmar [i=ingmar@exherbo/developer/ingmar] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 07:46:07-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20091211 07:58:59-!- ezysquire [i=de98fee3@gateway/web/freenode/x-hdwgzsvdzcoqsanf] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 08:00:29< ezysquire> any wml gurus around?
20091211 08:03:17-!- amikrop [n=amikrop@adsl-255-182.diodos.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"]
20091211 08:04:33-!- silene [n=silene@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-99-211.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 08:29:06-!- Sirp [n=user@wesnoth/developer/dave] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)]
20091211 08:29:49< Soliton> just ask.
20091211 08:32:02< Zarel> ...hrm. I've actually contributed art to the game, but I have no "Art Contributor" status. :(
20091211 08:33:25< ezysquire> in a last breath event is it possible to place the trigger condition trigger on it that... it must be the current turn of the secondary unit   ????
20091211 08:37:14< Soliton> not sure if you can filter by it but you can surely put an [if] that makes sure that is the case.
20091211 08:39:51< ezysquire> yes, i hoped that would be the case... having difficulty writing the code line for second unit/current turn
20091211 08:47:31< Jetrel> Zarel:  what did you make?
20091211 08:47:40< Jetrel> Zarel:  let's fix this. :)
20091211 08:47:53< Zarel> Jetrel: Oh, it was just a few icons.
20091211 08:47:59< Jetrel> Zarel:  link?
20091211 08:48:20< Zarel> "Sorry but you cannot use search at this time. Please try again in a few minutes."
20091211 08:48:23< Zarel> Gimme "a few minutes"
20091211 08:48:43< Jetrel> Zarel:  were they just the icons for the new MP system?
20091211 08:48:44< Zarel> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26541
20091211 08:48:47< Zarel> Yeah.
20091211 08:49:35< Jetrel> Zarel:  yeah, that's not quite enough to get the art contrib badge, *but* it's enough to be in the credits, so let me make sure you are.
20091211 08:49:46< Zarel> I probably wouldn't've brought it up, except I noticed -AP-'s thread, and then noticed I couldn't reply to it. :/
20091211 08:50:03< Jetrel> Zarel:  the art contrib badge isn't necessarily for work, it's more about being knowledgeable at drawing/art
20091211 08:50:39< Jetrel> I mean, we deliberately don't want many people to comment on that thread, because comments don't help, even if they are constructive, half the time.
20091211 08:50:42< Zarel> I totally am! http://wz2100.net/about <- see, look, I'm in the "Artists" section here. :P
20091211 08:51:29< Zarel> Anyway, if I'm not in the credits, take note that I prefer to be cited as Guangcong Luo.
20091211 08:52:04< Jetrel> I mean, it's more for people who can actually teach another artist to do a better job, and do tutorial critiques, rather than qualitative critiques.
20091211 08:52:52< Jetrel> :|  There are a number of rather bad sprite helpers who have gotten it, but I won't pretend we have a fair system with it.
20091211 08:54:46< Jetrel> Zarel:  okay - I use the format RealName (screenname) so people can contact the author within the community.
20091211 08:55:00< Zarel> Yeah, that's what we do, too.
20091211 08:55:05< Jetrel> I don't like doing just the screenname.
20091211 08:55:25< Jetrel> Zarel:  your name sounds chinese;  where are you from, I'm curious?
20091211 08:55:39< Zarel> Guangzhou, China.
20091211 08:55:59< Zarel> I was about to mention that "Zarel" wasn't my real name, when I remembered I just gave you my real name. ;)
20091211 08:56:10< Jetrel> Oh, cool.  I have some friends from china - actually had a roommate for a bit who was chinese.
20091211 08:56:55< Jetrel> Wenrui Guan, was his name; of course I couldn't type it in chinese to save my life. :|
20091211 08:56:58< Jetrel> Alas.
20091211 08:57:35< Zarel> Was he ABC or fob? ;)
20091211 08:57:51< Jetrel> Someday, it'd be a cool language to learn.  Too bad I've immediately got my hands full with getting competent at programming+art.
20091211 08:58:06< Zarel> 关文瑞
20091211 08:58:47< Jetrel> Zarel:  jet-setting fellow from mainland china, originally;  his parents moved to japan when he was ten, and he took a study-abroad program in america, at my college.
20091211 08:58:51< Zarel> (That's a guess at what his name might be. There's a lot of different characters that are pronounced the same way, so it's hard to say for sure)
20091211 08:59:01< Jetrel> aha.
20091211 08:59:55< Jetrel> Math whiz, actually, although that makes sense for a person bothering to travel abroad.
20091211 09:00:44< Zarel> Yeah, "math whiz" describes lots of Chinese. They really consider it important.
20091211 09:00:49< Jetrel> (one of the reasons we have a stereotype of smart asians is because there's a strong statistical correlation between valedictorian kids, and parents being willing to put their life savings into giving them educational opportunities)
20091211 09:01:06< Zarel> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm <- scroll down to see a somewhat hilarious difference
20091211 09:02:02< Zarel> Sadly, having taken high school in the US, I never got much experience with 3D geometry, other than the stuff I self-studied.
20091211 09:02:29< Jetrel> Yeah..  I was in a private school, but I had merely okay math preparation for college.
20091211 09:02:48< Jetrel> (In college I was actually a math-physics major, but I don't consider myself terribly good at them.)
20091211 09:03:14< Jetrel> My college education itself, though, was stellar.
20091211 09:04:07< Zarel> Ah. I'm a CS/math major, and I'd describe myself as at least okay at them.
20091211 09:04:48< Jetrel> I'm starting to get modestly good at programming, and I have the will to get wickedly good down the road; as good as I can.
20091211 09:05:19< Jetrel> But unfortunately it's about willpower;  I hate doing math in and of itself;  I see it only as a means to an end.
20091211 09:05:54< Jetrel> I can appreciate why some people like it; I just don't, myself.
20091211 09:06:51< Jetrel> >_<  Given a choice, I'd personally most like to pursue music, but I have no involvement in that at all right now.  Partly because educational opportunities there are really bad, and the software to do it is really complicated.
20091211 09:07:24< Zarel> And expensive. :/
20091211 09:07:26< Jetrel> (I'd like to compose music;  make music on a computer, because of course I'd have to before anyone would be willing to play it in RL)
20091211 09:07:30< Jetrel> Zarel:  yep.
20091211 09:07:38< Zarel> The fun thing about doing programming, is that there's all open-source tools to do it.
20091211 09:07:57< Jetrel> Photoshop might also be expensive, but I have -acquired- a copy, and photoshop is the only tool you need for computer art.
20091211 09:08:18< Zarel> Yep. Same here. I could never get used to GIMP.
20091211 09:08:18< Jetrel> Whereas with music, it's like you need some whole 'toolchain', and I don't even really understand what all is necessary.
20091211 09:09:05< Jetrel> Gimp is quite useable for photo retouching, but has a few subtle and crippling issues for doing ex-nihlio artwork in it.
20091211 09:09:16< Zarel> ooc, do you use Mac OS X?
20091211 09:09:27< Jetrel> (major difficulties selecting and dragging stuff around, compared to photoshop, for example)
20091211 09:09:34< Jetrel> Yeah, I do.
20091211 09:09:40< Zarel> I've discovered that most artists do.
20091211 09:09:49< Jetrel> I would use linux, but ... I must have access to commercial software.
20091211 09:10:17< Zarel> I would use Linux, but... I don't really have the free time to get it to "Just Work".
20091211 09:10:18< Jetrel> Some of my tools, I pay for, and having them is absolutely non-negotiable.
20091211 09:10:39< Jetrel> Zarel:  that too, although to be fair, they're actually getting pretty good about that these days.
20091211 09:11:29< Zarel> I try a few Linux distros around once a year, and while their CLI is superb, they still have a ways to go with GUI.
20091211 09:13:32< Jetrel> Ubuntu seemed decent last time I tried it, but it's been a while.
20091211 09:13:59< Jetrel> Ironically, windows doesn't work for me because I do need that unix commandline to program. :P
20091211 09:14:01< Zarel> It's decent for the first few hours. But then you want sound or something, and it all breaks down. :(
20091211 09:18:18< CIA-12> jetryl * r40187 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Added Zarel to the credits.
20091211 09:20:44< Jetrel> Neat videogame, that Warzone.  I should try it out sometime. :)
20091211 09:20:46-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 09:21:36-!- silene [n=silene@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-99-211.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["..."]
20091211 09:21:52< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: Idk, I guess it's what you're used to.
20091211 09:22:05< Aethaeryn> bah, zookeeper joined while I was typing z<tab>
20091211 09:22:06< Aethaeryn> zookeeper: sorry
20091211 09:22:28< Aethaeryn> That's the problem with being up at 3 am I guess
20091211 09:22:43< Aethaeryn> Zarel: Idk, I guess it's what you're used to.
20091211 09:23:07< Aethaeryn> People always say Linux is hard to get working, but tbh, I've been using it as my primary OS for years without too many problems and all my frustrating experiences seem to be with other OSes.
20091211 09:23:25< Aethaeryn> I guess the problem is when something doesn't work based on your expectations.
20091211 09:24:38< Zarel> Hah! I laugh at your "up at 3 AM". I woke up at midnight from 9 hours of sleep, so I bet I can outlast you. ;)
20091211 09:25:37< Zarel> Part of it's that I don't really like how the interface looks, and making the interface look better is rather difficult.
20091211 09:25:52< Zarel> There's also the whole thing with PulseAudio since Jaunty.
20091211 09:26:07< Aethaeryn> First of all, don't generalize Linux as one desktop manager.
20091211 09:26:11< Zarel> Jaunty released -> tons of "SOUND DOESN'T WORK IN WARZONE" on the Warzone forums. :(
20091211 09:26:13< Aethaeryn> Second of all, don't generalize Linux as Ubuntu.
20091211 09:26:39< Aethaeryn> Fedora 11 -> 12 upgrade had absolutely no errors at all for me, which is more than can be said for Ubuntu's upgrades.
20091211 09:26:57< Zarel> Aethaeryn: Yeah, I'm a CS major; I know. GNOME and KDE have their own problems, ditto most other DEs.
20091211 09:27:08< Appleman1234>  be careful, it doesn't take much for a friendly discussion about operating systems to reduce to flames ....
20091211 09:27:28< Aethaeryn> (1) Enlightenment is pretty cool, but it's rather lacking in features and almost as if it's more of a technical demonstration.
20091211 09:27:35< Aethaeryn> (2) The same can be said for KDE 4 ;)
20091211 09:27:52< Aethaeryn> (Just joking, I haven't used it since 4.1 so I'm sure it's a little better now.)
20091211 09:28:07< Soliton> http://gna.org/bugs/?14917 http://gna.org/bugs/?14918  Jetrel: some helpful suggestions for you!
20091211 09:28:27< Aethaeryn> I kinda admire what GNOME 3 is doing though... It's doing something not done first by Mac or Windows :o
20091211 09:28:29< Zarel> I'm sure KDE 4's more stable now, but I just never liked how they used screen space.
20091211 09:28:40< Appleman1234> Aethaeryn, thanks for reminding me that now that my c++ is better, I really need to smart helping with more wesnoth stuff
20091211 09:29:34< Appleman1234> i also need to setup my custom wesnoth setup, so I run stable,dev, and svn at once again ...
20091211 09:29:55< Jetrel> Soliton:  yep, I'm taking those off the bug tracker. :)
20091211 09:30:19< Jetrel> Soliton:  sorry about it getting cluttered with that sort of nonsense.
20091211 09:30:26< Aethaeryn> I don't like some KDE 3 -> 4 decisions, though. They didn't update a few games that I enjoyed and they added some totally awful ones like ksirk, which is the worst RISK clone I have ever played (and I've played about 4-5)
20091211 09:31:15< Zarel> rofl. Disliking a DE based on their bundled games? :)
20091211 09:31:21< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091211 09:31:35< Aethaeryn> It's about standards, you see.
20091211 09:31:46< Aethaeryn> Including something rather amateurish isn't very indicitive of quality.
20091211 09:31:54< Aethaeryn> You have to pay attention to little details and all.
20091211 09:32:12< Aethaeryn> In other words, I'd be the worst boss to have if I were a boss.
20091211 09:32:43< Zarel> GNOME 3 looks awesome, though.
20091211 09:32:51< Aethaeryn> I'm using it right now.
20091211 09:32:58< Aethaeryn> Or rather, the incomplete gnome-shell
20091211 09:33:15< Aethaeryn> There are some decisions that are awesome, and others that have me thinking "wtf"
20091211 09:34:00< Jetrel> Soliton:  closed both of those - I'm making up an official policy, based on all of our past behaviour - we don't track missing art assets on the bug tracker.  That goes on the forum - the bug tracker is for actual bugs in the software or WML.
20091211 09:34:26< Aethaeryn> Zarel: One thing I find funny about a GNOME vs. KDE difference is that the gnome-games website says that it's too big and no new games are allowed (at 14 MB), but KDE games is 64 MB
20091211 09:35:18< Zarel> On the subject of game size, full Warzone weighs in at 700 MB. It's kind of disturbing. :|
20091211 09:36:13< Soliton> Jetrel: yeah, that's what i assumed. those were actually a first, i think. or at least i don't remember such silly complaints.
20091211 09:36:30< Jetrel> Soliton:  nah, we've had a few before.
20091211 09:36:44< Zarel> It's something like 25 MB code, 25 MB data-minus-terrain-textures, 70 MB terrain textures, and 600 MB full-quality-videos.
20091211 09:36:56< Aethaeryn> Videos would do that.
20091211 09:37:01< Jetrel> Soliton:  there are some people out there that are just retarded, and don't realize we can see the obvious.
20091211 09:38:51< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: I find it actually kind of insulting that someone would think that you wouldn't notice such obvious missing art.
20091211 09:39:05< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  yes.
20091211 09:39:08< Aethaeryn> At least, they're implying that it somehow slipped and it's their entirely-original idea that it needs replacing/fixing.
20091211 09:39:15< Jetrel> Precisely.
20091211 09:39:21< Zarel> Well, I think they think you know about it, but since it wasn't on the bug tracker they thought they'd make a ticket to keep track of it.
20091211 09:39:49< Aethaeryn> Since when is art a bug?
20091211 09:40:08< Zarel> ...lack of art can be considered a bug.
20091211 09:40:13< Aethaeryn> Can I submit a feature request that the new fire dragon, currently being worked on, get finished? Will that do anything?
20091211 09:40:43< Zarel> Probably won't do anything, but that doesn't mean you can't do it in good faith.
20091211 09:40:49< Aethaeryn> It might fit the letter of a feature request, but it accomplishes nothing. The point of a bug tracker is to track bugs.
20091211 09:41:20< Aethaeryn> Yeah, but just because you can do it in good faith (aka. ignorance) doesn't mean that it couldn't be insulting/incosiderate/rude.
20091211 09:41:48< Aethaeryn> "Hey art director, some art isn't complete yet."
20091211 09:41:55< Zarel> Perhaps, but I prefer not to let it get to me.
20091211 09:42:24< Aethaeryn> Eh, maybe it was the wording, maybe it was my tiredness finally kicking in.
20091211 09:42:33< Aethaeryn> I just definitely interpreted those messages as somewhat demeaning.
20091211 09:42:40< Aethaeryn> (the feature request messages)
20091211 09:42:56< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  it'd only lower my opinion of you.
20091211 09:43:07< Zarel> When your project forums are filled with non-native English speakers, there's often far worse things to be irritated by.
20091211 09:44:03< Zarel> [after a 5-page thread about how to add unit transports without upsetting game balance] "hi, i think we should be able to have big transport for tank sry for bad engllish im from venezuela"
20091211 09:44:31< Aethaeryn> Eh, sometimes people use ESL as an excuse.
20091211 09:44:37< Aethaeryn> Just as some people use age as an excuse.
20091211 09:45:12< Aethaeryn> I'm not going to go to a German game forum and post in broken German a feature request that is not very uh... wise to post.
20091211 09:48:14< Zarel> Yeah. I finally broke down right about here: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?p=41759#p41759
20091211 09:49:34< Aethaeryn> Idk, maybe I've hung around the Wesnoth crowd too much
20091211 09:49:41< Appleman1234> hmmm
20091211 09:49:44< Aethaeryn> But most suggestions are just plain laziness.
20091211 09:50:23< Aethaeryn> "Hey, here's a feature that will take months to code/draw, which I won't do myself (and might not even know the difficulty of). Please make it. NOW."
20091211 09:50:41< Zarel> Yeah, that's true of Warzone too. But you just say "No", explain why, and move on.
20091211 09:51:08< Aethaeryn> They conveniently always ommit a sentence that would make everything all better. "Here's $1000 upon completion."
20091211 09:51:31 * Appleman1234 doesn't know whether to sigh or giggle
20091211 09:52:26< Aethaeryn> Hey, if you're lazy, you can always pay for the feature, as long as it's not outright rejected except for lack of manpower/will.
20091211 09:52:50< Zarel> We've actually gotten people who've offered to pay on the Warzone forums.
20091211 09:53:07< Zarel> Of course, it was for save/loading MP games, which no one knows how to do with the existing codebase. :/
20091211 09:54:08< Aethaeryn> If I were a millionaire I'd pay certain artists to make art for Wesnoth just because.
20091211 09:55:23< Aethaeryn> Honestly, there are many good factions/units (obviously not for addition to Default Era) that never make it past the concept phase only due to lack of good sprite art, and 95% of those with sprite art suck.
20091211 09:55:33< Aethaeryn> I've stopped lurking the Faction and Era forum because it's rather depressing.
20091211 09:56:00< Zarel> <grumble>	hello , is this an active game ?
20091211 09:56:01< Zarel> <grumble>	shouldn't graphics be improved to make this late 20 century game 21 century ready
20091211 09:56:11< Appleman1234> lol
20091211 09:56:24< Appleman1234> that reminds me of my faction, that I put on hiatus
20091211 09:56:30< Aethaeryn> Imagine doing something like offering a speed-spriter like neorice $100 a faction for base units?
20091211 09:56:35< Appleman1234> because of too many suggestions
20091211 09:56:47< Appleman1234> lol
20091211 09:56:50< Zarel> Only $100? I'd probably offer him that much, if it was a good faction.
20091211 09:57:06< Aethaeryn> Yeah, it'd be modest, and they'd still need to have some motivation to do it.
20091211 09:57:33< Aethaeryn> But the idea would to have many factions put together over time, so it would wind up being at least $500 
20091211 09:57:55< Appleman1234> Aethaeryn, I give my time and knowledge because that is all I have, your desire for bounties in opensource assumes that people have money
20091211 09:58:12< Aethaeryn> Well, the bounties would be tiny.
20091211 09:58:45< Aethaeryn> More like some extra spending cash for a small-ish project (base sprites for a faction might take a month tops, probably less than that if the artist is talented and has spare time)
20091211 09:59:35< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: what do you think?
20091211 10:00:17< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  between his comic, and frogatto, I think he's a bit too busy.
20091211 10:00:18< Aethaeryn> It might be a little too much to ask of $100 from one person, but if three to four people split paying it, it's less than a new game... Nothing really.
20091211 10:00:22< Aethaeryn> Collective action at work.
20091211 10:00:29< Jetrel> neorice.com
20091211 10:00:45< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: Well, someone else, then?
20091211 10:00:52< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  also, $100 is way too low.  A reasonable commission for that work is $300.
20091211 10:01:08< Aethaeryn> $100 is too low?
20091211 10:01:12< Jetrel> If you look at what he's done before, that's about 2-3 nights of work.
20091211 10:01:28< Jetrel> Yes, $100 is way too low for someone skilled.
20091211 10:01:38< Aethaeryn> This is assuming it's a project they kinda want to do anyway. You'd pay a Wesnoth artist as opposed to an outsider.
20091211 10:02:03< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  neorice has moved on.
20091211 10:02:06< Aethaeryn> Hmm...
20091211 10:03:09< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: well, I only used neorice as an example of someone who could do it.
20091211 10:03:13< Appleman1234> hmmm
20091211 10:03:15< Aethaeryn> I'm sure there are others?
20091211 10:03:41< Aethaeryn> Who would do it for $150-200? I'm talking about that amount per faction, there'd probably be several factions involved overall
20091211 10:04:00< Jetrel> Aethearyn: to hire a professional, they need to earn ~ $2000 a month, minimum
20091211 10:04:01< Aethaeryn> It's just part of an overall observation that the lack of quality non-Default eras is primarily the lack of art, not the lack of ideas.
20091211 10:04:12< Jetrel> A professional must be able to make a real living off their work.
20091211 10:04:47< Aethaeryn> What about just a part-time thing to get a few factions out, though?
20091211 10:05:25< Aethaeryn> I'm sure there could be enough people who could put together donations... If 10 people gave $50, that's $500...
20091211 10:05:48< Aethaeryn> Could even have a donation drive, where they make a number of factions based on how much money they get.
20091211 10:05:59< Aethaeryn> So by the end of the drive, if they get $2000, they make a full era.
20091211 10:06:03< Zarel> $2000 a month for what? I'd think sprite art for Wesnoth would probably be done on a commission basis.
20091211 10:06:25< Aethaeryn> I don't think anyone could be a full-time Wesnothian, but they could definitely make some money per faction on it.
20091211 10:06:41-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20091211 10:06:53< Aethaeryn> And once high-quality base sprites are out, volunteers could animate/balance/code them, and voila, a new mainline era.
20091211 10:07:13< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: how much would you do it for?
20091211 10:07:32< Aethaeryn> I'm not suggesting you do it, but you know the most about sprite art as it relates to Wesnoth.
20091211 10:07:32< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  $2000/month
20091211 10:07:42< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: How much would $2000/month produce?
20091211 10:07:47< Jetrel> Anything less, I do only what I do for free.
20091211 10:08:09< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  I'm not sure, but I'd put in 8hrs a day.
20091211 10:08:15< Aethaeryn> O.O
20091211 10:08:17< Jetrel> Probably a full faction with animations.
20091211 10:08:26< Aethaeryn> A full faction for $2000?
20091211 10:08:43< Appleman1234> hmmm
20091211 10:08:44< Jetrel> Without animations, I could probably get the base images in maybe a week, working fulltime.
20091211 10:08:44< Aethaeryn> The animations alone are probably worth it, though.
20091211 10:08:55< Zarel> ...8 hours a day for $2K/mo? That's... that's TONS.
20091211 10:09:09< Jetrel> Zarel:  ?
20091211 10:09:18< Jetrel> Zarel:  tons of money?
20091211 10:09:26< Zarel> No, tons of work.
20091211 10:09:27< Aethaeryn> That's $24,000 a year, only a part-time job, I'd think.
20091211 10:09:28< Zarel> That's $8/hr.
20091211 10:09:42< Aethaeryn> I made more the summer I worked at UPS...
20091211 10:09:49< Jetrel> Hmm...  hur, durr..
20091211 10:09:55< Jetrel> maybe my math is off?
20091211 10:09:58< Zarel> Heck, I'd be asking for at least $15/hr for my coding work. :/ And I'd be asking more if I weren't a college student.
20091211 10:10:06< Aethaeryn> bah.
20091211 10:10:12< Appleman1234> hmmm
20091211 10:10:14< Aethaeryn> $2000 is 40 people giving $50
20091211 10:10:16< Jetrel> My last job was $45,000 a year.
20091211 10:10:33< Aethaeryn> I'd say $100 is the absolute highest I'd pay for something, so I'd need other people involved. :(
20091211 10:10:49< Aethaeryn> Not being stingy or anything, just the fact that I don't have very much money on me right now.
20091211 10:11:04< Zarel> $100 is the absolute highest _I'd_ pay for something, but I'm not sure there's anything I really want to see done right now.
20091211 10:11:05< Jetrel> oright
20091211 10:11:15< Zarel> I'd probably direct that $100 towards Warzone, if anything.
20091211 10:11:23< Jetrel> the reason my paychecks were so low was because that was prior to the raise...
20091211 10:11:46< Aethaeryn> I was hoping I could support someone else who was willing to do something, but needed the money. Rather than someone who was just in it for the money.
20091211 10:11:46< Jetrel> and that was below my actual rate of pay, and that was with takes withheld.
20091211 10:12:02< Aethaeryn> Not full-time, just an on-the-side thing.
20091211 10:12:12 * Jetrel rescinds the offer of $2000
20091211 10:12:21< Aethaeryn> Time-to-completion isn't an issue. Actually getting completion is.
20091211 10:12:33< Jetrel> But really, I mean - it's not worth it for me to work on anything for wesnoth, for pay.
20091211 10:12:45< Jetrel> I get paid more programming, and that's what you're competing with.
20091211 10:12:46< Zarel> Yeah. Working on commission is much more fun. I bill $30/hr for that.
20091211 10:13:07< Appleman1234> hehe
20091211 10:13:13< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: Well, I was thinking more like someone would make some money on the side, that's all.
20091211 10:13:22< Jetrel> Indeed, that's why I'm a programmer, professionally, although I also like how my art isn't being dictated to me - it's sort of a release from programming.
20091211 10:13:58< Appleman1234> :)
20091211 10:14:05< Aethaeryn>  Bah, there goes my idea.
20091211 10:14:18< Aethaeryn> If neorice would need a fortune and Jetrel is even more with full-time-or-nothing.
20091211 10:14:35< Appleman1234> lol
20091211 10:14:36< Aethaeryn> I was kind of thinking like a WSAS: UMC edition.
20091211 10:14:43< Appleman1234> umc ?
20091211 10:14:44< Jetrel> I'm not with full time, I'm just not for hire.
20091211 10:14:48< Aethaeryn> User-made-content.
20091211 10:15:30< Appleman1234> i will start contributing , although I am not a sprite artist by trade, I can do some stuff, but it all depends on time and interest
20091211 10:15:56< Appleman1234> then again on my eeepc wesnoth is one of the games I can actually play with intel graphics in the state they are
20091211 10:16:06< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: what's wrong with a small-ish commission as a motivation for some artists to work a little faster?
20091211 10:16:26< Aethaeryn> That's what I had in mind, really. $500 a faction or something like that, animations not included.
20091211 10:16:40< Aethaeryn> Am I way off in the work necessary to do a faction?
20091211 10:16:51< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  nothing, I'm just personally not for hire.
20091211 10:17:09< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  doing all the images and everything is a huge amount of work though.
20091211 10:17:21< Jetrel> Especially if they're actually well-animated.
20091211 10:18:18< Appleman1234> Aethaeryn, bounties only work if there is money for worth, which usually means enterprise investment .....
20091211 10:18:31< Appleman1234> alternately patrons ....
20091211 10:18:50< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: I wasn't necessarily making this idea with you in mind, it's just that you know if it was feasible because you know the work load that goes into a mainline-quality sprite.
20091211 10:19:01< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  no shit. :)
20091211 10:19:19< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  so as I said, expect to pay a bunch of money, but yes, it's feasible.
20091211 10:19:49< Jetrel> It varies from artist to artist, but you'd probably have them doing 2-4 weeks of fulltime work to create and animate a faction.
20091211 10:20:06< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: Well, it was just kind of an idea of what could be done with a Wesnoth Foundation, especially if mainline sprite art is wrapping up.
20091211 10:20:06< Jetrel> Maybe even up to 8 weeks.
20091211 10:21:04< Aethaeryn> Full-time work?
20091211 10:21:25< Jetrel> I'd love to up the ante on quality to the level of animation seen in Final Fantasy tactics, and then have those assets for a potential game like that.
20091211 10:21:48< Jetrel> It would make wesnoth look great, and people could make a semi-3d Wesnoth II out of that as well.
20091211 10:22:29< Aethaeryn> Well, that kind of money is impossible unless Wesnoth is sold.
20091211 10:22:39< Jetrel> In fact, shit- people could make a lot of games out of that - walking and ne-facing would make it acceptable for a 2d or action rpg.
20091211 10:23:09< Aethaeryn> I mean no one in their right mind would pay someone $2000 a month and expect absolutely no return except improvements on a game they can't profit from.
20091211 10:23:23< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  a non-profit would.
20091211 10:23:25< Aethaeryn> Incraedibly wealthy people are of course excluded from the above statement because they can afford to not be in their right midn.
20091211 10:23:40< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: Well, that's kind of what I was saying about collective action.
20091211 10:23:55< Aethaeryn> It's kind of the same principle of how lots of $1 lottery tickets can give someone a multi-million dollar jackpot.
20091211 10:23:56< zookeeper> well, linux distros can bundle wesnoth as a prominent high-quality game.
20091211 10:24:11< Jetrel> And wesnoth is being sold on certain platforms; there's an iPhone port out there making some money for the project.
20091211 10:24:34< Jetrel> An android port would be... as saleable as any android games out there.
20091211 10:24:44< zookeeper> it's not like linux distros don't benefit from having good-quality games for them
20091211 10:25:42< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: Would Wesnoth ever actually make $2000 a month though to pay for the services of a certain artist?
20091211 10:25:45< Jetrel> Anyways, I'm done discussing this - this is why I don't participate in #wesnoth dev almost at all.
20091211 10:26:09< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  we're done.  thank you for the discussion, sorry for being a dick, but I have work I have to do.
20091211 10:26:17< Aethaeryn> Eh. understandable.
20091211 10:26:23< Aethaeryn> If you're a volunteer you can be a dick.
20091211 10:26:36< Aethaeryn> That's my whole point with my conversation with Zarel earlier, and I'm no hypocrite.
20091211 10:26:58< Aethaeryn> (In other words, when I'm on the receiving end of a "no thanks" I understand it just as much as when I'm ridiculing a ridiculous idea.)
20091211 10:26:59< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  indeed we've spent 40minutes with my mostly undivided attention on this. :|
20091211 10:27:43< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  To close it - your idea is sound, some people might bite, but you'll need to offer them a decent amount of money.
20091211 10:28:14< Zarel> I've always wanted to make an MMORPG, and maybe even base it off Wesnoth.
20091211 10:28:47< Aethaeryn> I've always wanted to make a Zombie MMORPG. It'd just be the most fun thing ever that it would probably drain the social lives out of a good number of people.
20091211 10:28:50< Jetrel> And a faction is a lot of work, and would be expensive.
20091211 10:29:33< Aethaeryn> Hmmm, the problem with Wesnoth is that its art is never-ending.
20091211 10:29:40< Jetrel> A full faction is maybe $500 non-animated, or somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000-6000 animated, depending on competence and speed of the artist.
20091211 10:29:43< Aethaeryn> Its standards will always be raised before the todo list is finished.
20091211 10:29:57< Jetrel> Not many sprite artists are up to the job, frankly.
20091211 10:29:59< Aethaeryn> So at this rate, there'll never be another mainline faction, let alone another mainline set of factions (era)
20091211 10:30:04< Zarel> Aethaeryn: What kind of zombie MMORPG?
20091211 10:30:18< Aethaeryn> Zarel: Kill zombies?
20091211 10:30:26< Zarel> That's not very specific. ;)
20091211 10:30:36< Aethaeryn> I thought about more details once upon a time, but I realize now it's a waste of time.
20091211 10:30:52< Jetrel> Most sprite artists are to doing that ex nihlio, without having to match someone else's style, but forcing them into our mold limits it to only the true professionals.
20091211 10:30:54< Aethaeryn> I can't tell you how many times I've detailed an actually-feasible OS plan, but making an OS is more expensive than making a faction. ;)
20091211 10:31:01< Jetrel> s/are to/ are up to
20091211 10:31:41< Aethaeryn> Jetrel: $500 non-animated isn't that bad at all though.
20091211 10:32:04< Aethaeryn> That's just 10 donations of $50, and then let the animations trickle in over summers like with the Drakes
20091211 10:32:20< Aethaeryn> I mean, giant flying monsters with odd weapons are probably harder to animate than most people's factions.
20091211 10:33:03< Aethaeryn> All of a sudden it actually seems doable: pay for the base sprites and wait for the animations.
20091211 10:33:24< Zarel> Oh, I have a great idea for a zombie MMORPG.
20091211 10:33:52< Appleman1234> lol
20091211 10:33:55< Zarel> Have the "humans" side be played by one person each, but allow "zombie" side players to control a bunch of zombies!
20091211 10:34:02< Jetrel> Aethaeryn:  also - hiring advice:  Start with an artist who has a portfolio that looks good, but don't ask for up-front work to prove they're good.  That's verboten for a lot of people.  You can pay them an advance to see the first couple sprites, and call the thing off if that doesn't work out, but asking for "spec work", as it's called, is considered Very Bad.
20091211 10:34:24< Jetrel> Many people screw over graphic designers/artists for such free work.
20091211 10:35:12< Zarel> Yeah. I got screwed over by that once.
20091211 10:35:44< Zarel> No one's asked me for spec work since then, but I would probably refuse if they did.
20091211 10:35:59< Aethaeryn> Hmmm...
20091211 10:36:31< Aethaeryn> Zarel: just a quick survey, would you be willing to pay $50 for a totally awesome faction?
20091211 10:36:48< Aethaeryn> (if no one else in this channel will, it's probably hopelessly useless among people spoiled by free)
20091211 10:37:19< Zarel> ...erm, honestly, probably not.
20091211 10:37:28< Jetrel> to wit:  http://www.27bslash6.com/p2p.html
20091211 10:37:32< Zarel> I'd prefer to make the Default era more awesome.
20091211 10:37:37< Zarel> Or to make Warzone better.
20091211 10:38:19< Aethaeryn> Eh, personally I would love a new faction that came literally out of nowhere
20091211 10:38:29< Aethaeryn> That looked 10x awesomer than the awesomest UMC
20091211 10:39:04< Zarel> Erm, balance is everything. No balance = no way
20091211 10:39:16< Zarel> You'd have to sell me on what this new faction would add, before I'd agree to it.
20091211 10:39:21< Aethaeryn> Balance is indeed everything, but balance is easier than art.
20091211 10:39:47< Aethaeryn> Especially if you had something less than 6 in the new era.
20091211 10:39:57< Aethaeryn> 3-4 would almost be exponentially quicker to balance than Default Era.
20091211 10:40:14< Zarel> ...wait, did you say a new faction or a new era?
20091211 10:40:23< Zarel> I'm not all that interested in a new era...
20091211 10:40:37< Aethaeryn> Well, a new faction could obviously be the start of a new era?
20091211 10:41:15< Aethaeryn> I'm sure that if someone had Default-quality sprites, Default-quality balance would follow.
20091211 10:41:26< Aethaeryn> But Default is closed to new factions.
20091211 10:43:08< Zarel> Default is closed to new factions. But new eras aren't closed to Default.
20091211 10:43:12< Zarel> There's a rather big difference. ;)
20091211 10:43:16< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091211 10:43:51< Aethaeryn> So the new faction would be either (a) for campaigns or (b) the first of at least 3-4 factions.
20091211 10:44:47< Aethaeryn> While balance is easier to come across than quality sprites, it's still hard to add a new faction and I don't think even the best art in the world would get you in Default Era and break the years of balance.
20091211 10:45:10< Aethaeryn> Bah, forget it.
20091211 10:45:25< Aethaeryn> I've overthought this and stayed up too late.
20091211 10:45:30-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit ["Goodnight."]
20091211 10:46:14-!- ilor [n=ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3472, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/02 21:14:09 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"]
20091211 10:49:38-!- ezysquire [i=de98fee3@gateway/web/freenode/x-hdwgzsvdzcoqsanf] has quit ["Page closed"]
20091211 10:51:12< Ivanovic> moin
20091211 11:53:55-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 11:58:23-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@CPE-124-191-178-150.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20091211 12:11:04-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.136.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 12:12:01-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.136.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 12:12:34-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 12:19:44-!- dtiger [n=dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-62-1.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 12:21:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 65 bugs, 246 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091211 12:57:00-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 12:58:34-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@CPE-124-191-178-150.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 13:09:34-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 13:22:53-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@CPE-124-191-178-150.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20091211 13:32:40-!- Ken_Oh [n=dick@c-69-137-152-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 13:43:14-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Tigge, Soliton
20091211 13:44:25-!- Netsplit over, joins: Soliton
20091211 13:45:34-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 13:45:51-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@CPE-124-191-178-150.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 13:52:09-!- Tigge [n=tigge@c-5ba372d5.015-28-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 13:55:23-!- SonIcco [n=SonIcco@217.81.35.150] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 14:10:00-!- Appleman1234 [n=Appleman@CPE-124-191-178-150.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"]
20091211 14:47:32< Ivanovic> mordante: this one is really for you to handle since i got *no* idea how to explain things differently... http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28029&start=0
20091211 15:09:43-!- knotwork_ [n=markm@142.177.234.60] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 15:11:57-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 15:14:38-!- EdB [n=edb@20.117.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 15:16:44-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091211 15:26:39-!- knotwork [n=markm@142.177.233.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 15:39:16-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 15:40:37-!- SonIcco [n=SonIcco@217.81.35.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 15:54:27-!- Sirp [n=user@pool-71-164-166-178.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 15:56:06-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 16:06:04-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-93-165.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 16:15:39-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 16:23:23-!- GobiTheGoblin [n=asdf@e212-54-16-58.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["264552h of gameplay, and still only lvl 2. This RL MMORPG sucks."]
20091211 16:36:22< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: there is a mail relevant for you on the -dev ml
20091211 16:36:32< crimson_penguin> uh oh
20091211 16:36:51 * crimson_penguin is writing an email to his ISP complaining of the internet becoming useless 3 times recently
20091211 16:37:28< Ivanovic> that is: the mail *should* be there, but gna seems to take some extra mins before showing it
20091211 16:37:56< Ivanovic> basically it is from sam lantinga asking if the sdl probs are solved in the mac version
20091211 16:38:32< crimson_penguin> oh, cool
20091211 16:38:34< crimson_penguin> they aren't :P
20091211 16:38:44< crimson_penguin> well actually I don't know that
20091211 16:38:56< crimson_penguin> so uhh... they think there's a virus in my dmg?
20091211 16:39:12< Ivanovic> might make sense to reply to him saying that the probs were (at least partly) related to the ancient sdl version that was by accident used
20091211 16:39:30< Ivanovic> why should they think there is a virus?
20091211 16:39:35< crimson_penguin> oh yes, most of those recent ones were totally related to that
20091211 16:39:38< crimson_penguin> I have no idea
20091211 16:39:41< Ivanovic> that was about the myriad of "upstream" problems in our bug tracker
20091211 16:39:52< Ivanovic> since they were marked upstream, i notified sam about them
20091211 16:40:50< Ivanovic> okay, the mail arrived on the list and is also mentioned at at gna.org archive
20091211 16:41:44< Ivanovic> the part about input stuff is probably for mordante
20091211 16:41:48< Ivanovic> wesbot: seen alink
20091211 16:41:48< wesbot> Ivanovic: The person with the nick alink last spoke 5d 5h ago.  5d 5h ago they left with the message: Remote closed the connection
20091211 16:41:57< Ivanovic> though alink might know something, too, no idea
20091211 16:43:05< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: k, I'm replying
20091211 16:44:55 * crimson_penguin disappears for a little bit first
20091211 16:45:42< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: btw: http://64.201.60.211/web/rotate9.png :D progresssss!
20091211 16:52:19-!- EdB [n=edb@20.117.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 16:56:39< Zarel> On the subject of explaining legal code, I think this does a nice job: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/GPL/2.0/
20091211 16:56:56< Zarel> (I also think it makes it pretty clear why the GPL shouldn't be applied to artwork, but that's just me... -_- )
20091211 16:59:33-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:05:48-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091211 17:09:21-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:11:02-!- knotwork__ [n=markm@142.177.232.124] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:18:19-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-88-201.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:20:01-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:27:34-!- knotwork_ [n=markm@142.177.234.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 17:29:06-!- Zarel_ [n=Zarel@160.94.47.16] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:30:37-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit ["Leaving."]
20091211 17:31:23-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20091211 17:35:07-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 17:36:22-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-88-201.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 17:37:08-!- fendrin [n=fabi@88-134-186-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:40:58-!- isaac_ [n=isaac@79.152.148.249] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:46:05-!- _jbx_ [n=jbailey@12.190.80.225] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 17:51:23-!- isaac [n=isaac@debian/developer/isaac] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20091211 17:53:19-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 18:00:58-!- Zarel_ [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091211 18:09:11-!- Zarel_ [n=Zarel@x84-199-92.spa.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 18:14:21-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 18:17:06-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 18:21:26-!- stikonas_ [n=and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 18:21:44-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20091211 18:39:24-!- Zarel_ is now known as Zarel
20091211 18:42:52-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20091211 19:01:07-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 19:01:20< mordante> servus
20091211 19:01:54< mordante> Ivanovic, I'm some patches pending, which I like to have in the next beta
20091211 19:02:08< Ivanovic> oaky
20091211 19:02:28< mordante> Ivanovic, it will use the new timer engine to reduce the amount of requests to the MP server 
20091211 19:04:26< mordante> Ivanovic, I expect to have them ready early tomorrow
20091211 19:05:18< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: have you used "answer all"?
20091211 19:05:33< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: if not, please resend the mail to sam, too, since he is *not* on our dev-ml
20091211 19:05:35< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: yes, but then I took out you, because you're on the list
20091211 19:05:46< crimson_penguin> oh, I see
20091211 19:06:10< Ivanovic> pasted the email addy in a quer
20091211 19:06:12< Ivanovic> y
20091211 19:12:01< Ivanovic> mordante: i assume that you saw the dozens of messages i left for you in the logs?
20091211 19:13:28< mordante> Ivanovic, no some people have been chatty and still reading the log...
20091211 19:14:30< Ivanovic> ah, i made it easy for you placing a highlight close to where something relevant for you is mentioned
20091211 19:14:32< Ivanovic> ;)
20091211 19:15:00< mordante> I still try to read all... ;-)
20091211 19:15:16< Ivanovic> :)
20091211 19:15:23< mordante> and I'm not spoiling the fun by grepping for my name ;-)
20091211 19:17:16< mordante> Ivanovic, no need to explain differently ;-) http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=396947&sid=d2b28400d3cd69885f3b0cddb8c818fe#p396947
20091211 19:18:08-!- giusef [n=giusef@unaffiliated/giusef] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 19:19:01-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 19:19:46< mordante> Ivanovic, I already mentioned 2go4.be is fine for me
20091211 19:20:52< mordante> Ivanovic, and I think I'll have the entire Friday off so can be there early
20091211 19:22:44< Ivanovic> mordante: in general you don't get to go to the room before 4pm anyway
20091211 19:22:58< Ivanovic> the interesting question is: how to handle check in for those "not around when checking in"
20091211 19:23:44< mordante> did grzywacz already ask them?
20091211 19:24:05< Ivanovic> i hope so but i don't know
20091211 19:24:36< Ivanovic> that is i asked grzywacz and deekay to inquire and yesterday deekay said that he has not asked the hostel
20091211 19:26:27< mordante> let's hope grzywacz did or deekay will do so today ;-)
20091211 19:26:54< Ivanovic> jupp
20091211 19:44:35-!- stikonas_ [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 19:44:55-!- stikonas_ [n=and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 19:45:31-!- stikonas_ is now known as stikonas
20091211 19:47:27-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20091211 19:51:28-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-93-165.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 19:58:51-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:08:38-!- silene [n=silene@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:08:55< silene> hi
20091211 20:10:17-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091211 20:14:35-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-93-165.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:16:05-!- _jbx_ [n=jbailey@12.190.80.225] has quit ["I've got to get dressed to go out...of my mind."]
20091211 20:22:56-!- _jbx_ [n=jbailey@12.190.80.225] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:33:23< fendrin> Hi silene. Please tell me how and where the translation for the debug output line is done in the parser.
20091211 20:44:04-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091211 20:44:24-!- EdB [n=edb@79.88.117.20] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:45:39< silene> fendrin: i don't understand the question; what is the debug output line?
20091211 20:47:05< fendrin> silene: We talked about the \374 symbol that stores the file and line locations for the macro include.
20091211 20:47:50< fendrin> When the wml parser encounters an error how are the stored informations used?
20091211 20:48:14-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Turuk
20091211 20:52:03-!- Turuk [n=administ@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:53:05-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Noyga, _teddy, dtiger, Aethaeryn, loonycyborg
20091211 20:56:45-!- silene [n=silene@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
20091211 20:56:53-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 20:57:09-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: isaac_, zookeeper
20091211 20:57:23< silene> fendrin: the content of the last #line directive is directly used as the location, except for the first line number which is modified according to the number of linebreaks encountered since then
20091211 21:00:58-!- dtiger [n=dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-62-1.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:04:16-!- isaac [n=isaac@debian/developer/isaac] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:10:07-!- EdB [n=edb@79.88.117.20] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 21:10:22< fendrin> silene: can you point me to the line where that is done? I don't get where the parser reads that special character.
20091211 21:16:05< silene> fendrin: tokenizer.hpp:256
20091211 21:18:36< esr> fendrin:  Here's the first part of the storyboard for a new campaign, "A Hard Landing": http://pastebin.com/m3245d1d7
20091211 21:18:51< esr> Interested in collaborating on it?
20091211 21:19:45< fendrin> esr: line 13: what are "drake beeders."?
20091211 21:20:16< esr> Oops.  "breeders".  The femalrd.
20091211 21:20:22< esr> females
20091211 21:22:11< esr> Later in the campaign, the drakes will end up in the Heart Mountains.  That's about all I know so far.
20091211 21:24:08-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:24:08-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:24:08-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:24:08-!- _teddy [n=fedor76@ppp-78-24-25-17-bras0.istra.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:28:12< fendrin> esr: It reads fine but it's another variant of "we lost home and need to flee". We already have many campaigns following that schema.
20091211 21:29:07< esr> fendrin: Actually, zookeeprer suggested the premoise by saying "Just once, I'd like to play the invaders."
20091211 21:29:51< fendrin> esr: Yes, he is right. The drakes could just for a difference be the invaders. The succesful invaders.
20091211 21:29:53< CIA-12> mordante * r40188 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Convert the hovering to the new timer.
20091211 21:30:01< CIA-12> mordante * r40189 /trunk/src/ (events.hpp gui/auxiliary/event/handler.cpp): Remove the old hover event.
20091211 21:30:03< esr> That's the idea.
20091211 21:30:39< CIA-12> mordante * r40190 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): MP lobby refresh to the new timer engine.
20091211 21:31:01< mordante> Ivanovic, I'm ready for the next release ^
20091211 21:31:25< esr> In scenario 3, they'll beat the stuffings out of the Wose, then fly north to the Heart Mountains where they can avoid notice for a while.
20091211 21:32:29< esr> There will be trolls and dwarves, of course.  I don't know what the climactic fight should be, but there should be at least one drake-on-drake battle with other refugees.
20091211 21:33:20< fendrin> esr: Can we cut out the fleeing part? Can't the drakes living some where not just deceide that it is a good day to do some conquering in the realms of the lesser species?
20091211 21:34:14< Ivanovic> mordante: great"!
20091211 21:34:14< Ivanovic> won't do it today though
20091211 21:34:41< esr> I suppose we could, but zookeeper and I were kicking around "Drakes invade the Great Continent" as a premise.
20091211 21:35:10< mordante> I didn't really expect that, but wanted to commit it directly
20091211 21:36:12< fendrin> esr: Nothing wrong with invading the great continent. I just don't like to see the "home destroyed" start setting anymore.
20091211 21:44:04-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-88-34.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 21:49:09< esr> fendrin: I understand.  Can you suggest a reason they need to find an uninhabited area other than being refugees?
20091211 21:49:27< CIA-12> noyga * r40191 /trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs): French translation update
20091211 21:49:55< mordante> ilor there's no real way to embed extra information into a widget, but you can add a invisible widget with the information
20091211 21:49:58< shadowmaster> HttT, TRoW, UtBS, DW, LoW, L (sort of) all start with the Doomed Hometown setting.
20091211 21:50:03< shadowmaster> that's interesting
20091211 21:50:11< mordante> ilor is the wish for such info wanted?
20091211 21:50:48< mordante> ilor yes deleting a widget from an event callback is still a bad idea, you really need it?
20091211 21:51:18< esr> So does Dead Water. But in A Hard Landing, hometown has already been trashed offscreen, before start of story.
20091211 21:52:51< shadowmaster> esr: DW = Dead WAter
20091211 21:53:24< esr> Ah.
20091211 21:54:01-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: erl, Chusslove, Smar, AnMaster, Tigge, Rhonda, Ingmar, isaac, _jbx_, Ivanovic,  (+3 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
20091211 21:56:34-!- Netsplit over, joins: _jbx_, Soliton, Ivanovic, Rhonda, isaac, dtiger, silene, Tigge, Ingmar, Chusslove (+3 more)
20091211 21:59:10< fendrin> shadowmaster: And you forgot NR that has a similar setup.
20091211 21:59:32< esr> No, tagging NF+R that way isn't fair.
20091211 21:59:38< shadowmaster> well, except that it's not immediately doomed.
20091211 21:59:43< loonycyborg> shadowmaster: I'm surprised that wesnoth isn't mentioned in http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomedHometown :P
20091211 21:59:44< esr> It starts with a slave revolt.
20091211 22:00:16< shadowmaster> they are smarter than the rest and know that it'll be doomed if they don't gather some actual weapons and resources for defending their place after getting rid of their overlords
20091211 22:00:27< shadowmaster> so it doesn't kind of count.
20091211 22:00:34< shadowmaster> *kind of doesn't count
20091211 22:02:50-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:03:01< ilor> hi mordante
20091211 22:03:14< ilor> re: extra info in a list, can and did work around that
20091211 22:03:39< ilor> re: deleting a widget, would be nice in some circumstances but managed to work around too
20091211 22:04:01< mordante> hi ilor 
20091211 22:04:05< ilor> I take it you're okay with the scroll member function in scrollbar container?
20091211 22:04:22< mordante> ilor, no I'm not and have a commit pending ;-)
20091211 22:04:34< fendrin> Okay, the drake kingdom is prospering and they have planned that conquest for years. The first scenario will be a mixture between combat and compatition for somehting to show which drake leader is given the honour to lead the drakes into battle.
20091211 22:04:43< mordante> just to make it more generic and adding the horizontal version
20091211 22:05:06< ilor> ok ;) I thought I better not try to overdo it since you'll likely rewrite it :P
20091211 22:05:44< CIA-12> mordante * r40192 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (window.cpp window.hpp): 
20091211 22:05:44< CIA-12> Remove twindow::set_event_loop_pre_callback().
20091211 22:05:44< CIA-12> This was a kind of ugly hack, which is no longer needed since r40190.
20091211 22:05:48< CIA-12> mordante * r40193 /trunk/src/gui/auxiliary/event/dispatcher.cpp: Strip trailing whitespace.
20091211 22:05:53< CIA-12> mordante * r40194 /trunk/src/gui/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20091211 22:05:53< CIA-12> Replaced scroll_to_vertical_end to a generic one.
20091211 22:05:53< CIA-12> Also added another version for the horizontal scrollbar.
20091211 22:05:56< CIA-12> mordante * r40195 /trunk/src/unit_animation.cpp: 
20091211 22:05:56< CIA-12> Pre instead of post increment a variable.
20091211 22:05:57< CIA-12> Issue found by cppcheck.
20091211 22:05:58< fendrin> ilor: Can you pipe the file you load in the editor through the preprocessor? That way it would be able to load maps from campaign scenarios.
20091211 22:06:07< mordante> ilor, r40194
20091211 22:06:36< ilor> mordante: regarding spurious scrollbars stuff seems a lot more solid now, only issue now is that for some reason the chat scroll label starts off with bith scrollbars which disappear after a while
20091211 22:06:49< ilor> fendrin: not trivial
20091211 22:07:17< ilor> fendrin: pipe through the preprocessor but with which macros?
20091211 22:07:35< mordante> yeah I noticed the chat one as well, but put it on low priority first wanted to get things stable
20091211 22:07:42-!- giusef [n=giusef@unaffiliated/giusef] has quit ["exit (-1);"]
20091211 22:07:54< ilor> mordante yeah it's a minor glitch
20091211 22:07:59< fendrin> ilor: all of them? 
20091211 22:08:05< ilor> I have a more serious issue though
20091211 22:08:17< ilor> mordante: the new lobby feels slow in general
20091211 22:08:30< mordante> btw I also added a new timer helper which is used to poll the network every two seconds (instead of every frame)
20091211 22:08:49< ilor> mordante: compared to the old lobby, scrolling the gamelist with arrowkeys is really sluggish
20091211 22:11:44< mordante> ilor, just tested and indeed the scrolling is rather slow
20091211 22:12:14< ilor> what happens now during a gamelist change is that the entire playerlist is redone
20091211 22:13:58< mordante> and that of course triggers an invalidation of the entire layout
20091211 22:19:14< mordante> ilor, what else is left for the lobby?
20091211 22:20:07-!- dtiger [n=dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-62-1.telecom.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20091211 22:20:13< ilor> perofrmance should be our focus I guess, I patched some UI annoyances yesterday that should help with the general feel
20091211 22:21:36< mordante> yes I saw those commits
20091211 22:21:52< mordante> scrolling in the game list is the only slow part?
20091211 22:23:39< ilor> it's the one I noticed so far
20091211 22:23:42-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@76.202.22.180] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:24:01< ilor> mordante: we haven't really looked at how it will work with 50+ games on the server
20091211 22:25:18< mordante> ilor, true
20091211 22:28:07-!- ilor_ [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:29:18-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Turuk, ilor
20091211 22:30:28-!- elynia [n=shyde@wesnoth/umc-dev/misc/elynia] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:31:43< ilor_> what's the port for the 1.6 server?
20091211 22:33:05-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Noyga, _teddy, Aethaeryn, loonycyborg
20091211 22:34:00< Soliton> 14999
20091211 22:35:10-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:35:10-!- Turuk [n=administ@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:35:28-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20091211 22:37:21-!- Zarel [n=Zarel@x-160-94-88-34.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:38:22-!- Turuk_ [n=administ@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:38:31-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Turuk, ilor
20091211 22:38:45-!- Turuk_ is now known as Turuk
20091211 22:38:49< mordante> I'm off night
20091211 22:38:57< ilor_> Soliton: it does redirect 1.7 to the trunk server doesn't it?
20091211 22:39:23-!- Netsplit over, joins: ilor
20091211 22:39:28-!- giusef [n=giusef@host202-249-dynamic.37-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:39:45-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20091211 22:40:15< Soliton> ilor: to the 1.7 server, yes.
20091211 22:40:23-!- Aethaeryn [n=Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #Wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:40:35< Soliton> ilor: you can login if you set your version to test.
20091211 22:41:24-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.136.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:51:06-!- Netsplit farmer.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: erl, Chusslove, Smar, AnMaster, elynia, Rhonda, Tigge, Ingmar, _jbx_, isaac,  (+6 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
20091211 22:51:55-!- Netsplit over, joins: Aethaeryn, Zarel, elynia, isaac, Soliton, Ivanovic, Rhonda, AnMaster, Smar, erl (+6 more)
20091211 22:52:05-!- elynia_ [n=shyde@190.22.117.73] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:52:07-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"]
20091211 22:52:07-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.136.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:52:07-!- elynia_ [n=shyde@190.22.117.73] has quit [Client Quit]
20091211 22:52:42-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:52:52-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Client Quit]
20091211 22:52:55-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.136.219] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:54:02-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit [Connection timed out]
20091211 22:56:38-!- elynia_ [n=shyde@190.22.117.73] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:56:46-!- elynia_ [n=shyde@190.22.117.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 22:56:55-!- elynia_ [n=shyde@wesnoth/umc-dev/misc/elynia] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 22:58:12-!- elynia [n=shyde@wesnoth/umc-dev/misc/elynia] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
20091211 22:58:16-!- elynia_ is now known as elynia
20091211 22:59:20-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Quitte"]
20091211 23:00:54-!- elynia_ [n=shyde@wesnoth/umc-dev/misc/elynia] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:04:29-!- elynia_ is now known as PinkUnicorn
20091211 23:04:54-!- Turuk [n=administ@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit []
20091211 23:09:00-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:09:00-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@c.218.175.a530.sta.adsl.cyfra.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:11:06-!- shadowm_sasl [n=ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:11:16-!- shadowm_sasl is now known as shadowm_laptop
20091211 23:11:49-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:16:31-!- zookeeper [n=l@88-148-251-223.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:23:43-!- zookeeper [n=l@88-148-251-223.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
20091211 23:26:53-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20091211 23:30:49-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:33:33-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit []
20091211 23:40:46-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:43:08< thespaceinvader> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28073&start=0 is this guy banned for a reason?
20091211 23:44:51-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091211 23:46:07-!- _jbx_ [n=jbailey@12.190.80.225] has quit ["I am you and what I see is me."]
20091211 23:46:59< shadowmaster> no idea, thespaceinvader 
20091211 23:47:12< thespaceinvader> k
20091211 23:48:12< shadowmaster> he could be talking of the MP servers or the forums, as well, which makes it an even more useless post
20091211 23:53:08< CIA-12> mcshark * r40196 /trunk/projectfiles/ (CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp CodeBlocks-SCons/wesnoth.cbp): Update according to recent file changes
20091211 23:53:26< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: he can not be talking about the forums
20091211 23:53:36< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: since he could not post if "he" was banned from the forums
20091211 23:53:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20091211 23:54:14< shadowmaster> unless it's an alt account
20091211 23:54:29< Ivanovic> (considering that his forum account is already *by far* older and was not just created some mins ago)
20091211 23:54:32< shadowmaster> and I have just witnessed how stupid ban evaders can be, so for me, everything is possible
20091211 23:54:51< Ivanovic> an alt account that is 8 months old and was never used to post before? IMO unrealistic
20091211 23:55:38< shadowmaster> and people who join a server claiming that they are not evading a ban, with a nickname of "IAmEvadingABan"?
20091211 23:55:43< shadowmaster> unrealistic. Happened, though.
20091211 23:56:16< Ivanovic> nah, this one is funny and very realistic considering that there are many morons out there in the world!
20091211 23:56:37< noy> well it may be collateral damage from the range ban we've got on Kard
20091211 23:56:42< Ivanovic> (the one about evading ban)
20091211 23:56:52-!- shadowm_laptop is now known as ShikadiLord
20091211 23:56:58< noy> its for the MP server
20091211 23:57:07< noy> and there is  ban on that IP
--- Log closed Sat Dec 12 00:00:22 2009