--- Log opened Fri Dec 18 00:00:34 2009
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20091218 00:21:16-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 247 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091218 00:48:45< Crab_> fendrin, Aethaeryn: I found one hack in wesnoth team building code, which conflicts with the (future) usage of multiple leaders per side. I'm atm unsure about the best way to handle it. can you tell me your opinion ?
20091218 00:48:54< Crab_> Existing Ugly Hack: if the [side] tag specifies a leader and there's a unit with can_recruit="yes" in that side recall list, then the leader in the [side] tag is ignored and the one from the recall list is used instead.
20091218 00:49:50< Crab_> Consequence: impossible to have (in a straightforward way) "one leader in recall list, another in [side], both are available"
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20091218 09:09:03< CIA-28> silene * r40282 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 6 dirs): Partly fixed compilation issues with ICC, including some real bugs in the code.
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20091218 13:18:13< Rhonda> http://bugs.debian.org/561580
20091218 13:18:26 * Rhonda wonders if this still might be the case with 1.6/1.7
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20091218 15:45:10< fendrin> Rhonda: I will have a look at the report.
20091218 15:45:42< Rhonda> fendrin: Thanks! :)
20091218 15:55:23< Ivanovic> hi
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20091218 16:03:35< CIA-28> shadowmaster * r40283 /trunk/misc/fortunes/wesnoth: Cookie time.
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20091218 16:25:11< shadowmaster> where are TSI or Turuk when I need thenm...
20091218 16:26:43< Rhonda> sleeping
20091218 16:28:57 * wesbot kicks shadowmaster
20091218 16:29:17< shadowmaster> ow
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20091218 17:06:23< CIA-28> ivanovic * r40284 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-nr/ru.po wesnoth-utbs/ru.po): updated Russian translation
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20091218 17:09:39 * shadowmaster stamps the Quality Control seal on the forums.
20091218 17:09:51< Ivanovic> are you sure?
20091218 17:10:00< shadowmaster> well, if you see anything wrong?
20091218 17:13:43< shadowmaster> the only thing I was really worried about was the mailer code which was broken in mainline version 3.0.5 - that seems to be fixed in 3.0.6
20091218 17:13:48< loonycyborg> shadowmaster: I for one definitely don't see anything wrong with it.
20091218 17:14:19< shadowmaster> I could test most of anything else in the forums running on my laptop during the last month
20091218 17:20:26< Ivanovic> Soliton: can you check if someone was caught in a backlash of banning? http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28171&start=0
20091218 17:23:42< shadowmaster> assuming he's not kard_... ;)
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20091218 17:44:46 * shadowmaster stamps Quality Control seal #2
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20091218 17:49:41< shadowmaster> dammit, router reset the connection in middle of posting :/
20091218 17:52:04< shadowmaster> ettin: pling
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20091218 20:41:50< mordante> servus
20091218 20:51:34< Sapient> hi
20091218 20:51:40< mordante> hi Sapient 
20091218 20:52:12< Sapient> mordante: at first I thought you were accidentally giving your password when you typed 'servus' ;)
20091218 20:52:40< Sapient> I guess that is a common greeting in your area?
20091218 20:52:58< mordante> it's a greeting, but not common in my area
20091218 20:53:03< Ivanovic> it is a (south german) greeting
20091218 20:53:37< mordante> but I like the word 
20091218 20:53:37< Sapient> ah, well I got in trouble for using "yo" once
20091218 20:54:04< Sapient> someone at my company was offended that I told them "yo" because they felt it was too informal
20091218 20:54:07< Ivanovic> uhm, *why* have you gotten into trouble for using "yo"?
20091218 20:54:31< Sapient> weird, huh?
20091218 20:54:38< Ivanovic> very
20091218 20:54:40< mordante> indeed odd
20091218 20:57:02< Sapient> reminds me of the japanese guy who got murdered with an umbrella for not using the honorific...
20091218 20:57:46< Sapient> so all those formalities are very important to some (disturbed and insecure) people
20091218 21:00:24< Ivanovic> the worst thing i know about in this town: one dude was killed because of a single cigarette
20091218 21:00:58< Ivanovic> he tried to grab into a kiosk to steal a single cigarette and the owner knifed him...
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20091218 21:01:32< mordante> smoking kills...
20091218 21:01:45< Ivanovic> one way or another...
20091218 21:01:46< Ivanovic> ;)
20091218 21:01:52< mordante> exactly
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20091218 22:00:47< fmunoz> Any art developer? I noticed some minor "linking" graphic stuff
20091218 22:00:56< mordante> I'm off bye
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20091218 22:02:01< noy> fmunoz: hey, how's it going?
20091218 22:02:09< boucman> hey fmunoz
20091218 22:02:18< boucman> what do you mean by "linking"
20091218 22:02:23< fmunoz> just goofing around while "working" :-)
20091218 22:03:12< fmunoz> Chantal (elf girl in HttT) used in Delfador Mem. protrait is not included in HttT
20091218 22:03:39< boucman> that would be for zookeeper
20091218 22:03:54< fmunoz> and looks better than the base one... (also is done by kitty)
20091218 22:05:10< fmunoz> also nagas use the orcish swords as attack icons but the old jewelled scimitar (soon to be unused) really fits better to their "hindu" image
20091218 22:05:21< fendrin> zookeeper: around?
20091218 22:07:58< fmunoz> I can submit the bug/enhancements reports too
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20091218 22:09:06< zookeeper> fendrin, yeah
20091218 22:10:02< fendrin> zookeeper: https://gna.org/bugs/?11532 I am currently working on a maybe solution to this bug report. 
20091218 22:11:10< fendrin> zookeeper: I extend wml by a [tunnel] attribute that links two or more hexfields together. 
20091218 22:12:23< boucman> fendrin: couldn't you add a SuF for the destination ?
20091218 22:12:52< boucman> I mean SLF
20091218 22:13:31< fendrin> boucman: [tunnel] [source] slf [dest] slf ?
20091218 22:14:11< boucman> fendrin: we are talking about an ability (unit related) our a way to help the pathfinder when doing fixed (map) teleport ?
20091218 22:14:28< boucman> [tunnel] sounds more map related to me
20091218 22:15:10< zookeeper> fendrin, what are you trying to achieve with that? i don't see it
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20091218 22:17:29< fmunoz> I think that fendrin are askeing for... portals?
20091218 22:17:40< fmunoz> I think that fendrin is asking for... portals? 
20091218 22:17:49< boucman> ok, that's map related, not an ability
20091218 22:17:52< fendrin> Example: Caves under a battlefield. The map is splitted in two levels and some of the [tunnel] points connect the both maps together.
20091218 22:18:44< fendrin> My coding problem is much deeper. It's in the pathfinder and astarsearch algo. So anything I do here will be related to any kind of teleportation.
20091218 22:20:12< Crab_> fendrin: note that if you limit your topology to 'several areas without portals, connected only by portals', it should be fairly simple to get right, compared to the 'generic' case
20091218 22:22:50< fendrin> Currently the support for village teleportation is hardcoded in the astarsearch algo. I am not sure if I am going to hack the support for the tunnel beside it or find a generic way to handle all sort of teleportation at path finding level.
20091218 22:23:17< boucman> fendrin: please generalize :)
20091218 22:23:34< boucman> since it's 1.9 material anyway, we might as well make it generic
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20091218 22:26:48< fendrin> boucman, Crab_: Okay, my suggestion is to support a vector of locations per hexfield that can be used for teleportation target from the hexfield. A std::map<map_location, vector<map_location> > private in gamemap is to be used for all teleportation tricks.
20091218 22:27:50< Crab_> why not a std::multimap ?
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20091218 22:29:14< fendrin> Crab_: A multimap supports some natural order. I am not sure if that is needed. But the multimap should be fine.
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20091218 22:35:34< Crab_> fendrin: have you talked with alink, yet ?
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20091218 22:35:51< fendrin> Crab_: No haven't seen him lately.
20091218 22:36:01< Crab_> wesbot: seen alink
20091218 22:36:01< wesbot> Crab_: The person with the nick alink last spoke 1d 1h ago.  23h 17m ago they left with the message: Remote closed the connection
20091218 22:36:40< Crab_> ok
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20091218 22:58:13< alink> hi
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20091218 23:02:16< alink> fendrin: yes, generic teleport is a big project that i always wanted to try. But it's a will be some serious work.
20091218 23:02:58< alink> i was often distracted by the fact that even the current teleport is not yet fully cleanly supported
20091218 23:03:53< alink> also there is performance issue, especially if you want the AI to use it, and even more if you want nice WML filter stuff
20091218 23:04:31< CIA-28> noyga * r40285 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): French translation update
20091218 23:06:37< alink> btw, you need std::set there not vector, since you need fast check if an hex is a portal. It's why village-teleport use std::set
20091218 23:09:06-!- Aethaeryn is now known as mjb
20091218 23:12:25< alink> mmmh unless your std::map code the 'enter to exit' relation
20091218 23:18:19< shadowmaster> note for self: forum uses bbCodes, not faux XHTML
20091218 23:22:45< fendrin> alink: hi, can you explain more about the current village teleport code. Where do you do that fast check with the std::set?
20091218 23:23:16< alink> int i = teleports && teleports->count(n.curr) ? locs.size() : 6;
20091218 23:24:36< alink> but, I take back my remark about vector, if the teleports enter points are the keys of your std::map, it will work too
20091218 23:25:31< fendrin> alink: Right, that was my plan to use it.
20091218 23:25:40< alink> btw find_routes is the second pathfinding function which need to be aware of teleport, but it's easier there
20091218 23:26:15< fendrin> the constructor of node is the thing that gives me the most worries.
20091218 23:26:39< alink> another thing which will need special care, is the heuristic function
20091218 23:27:20< fendrin> alink: it's the constructor of node where the heuristic function is hacked to respect the teleport.
20091218 23:27:24< alink> but that should be not too hard
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20091218 23:29:00< fendrin> alink: What is the hard part that prevented you from implementing it?
20091218 23:29:40< alink> one is ; support of dynamic WML filter
20091218 23:30:04< fendrin> what is a dynamic WML filter?
20091218 23:30:13< alink> that is at each pathfinding request, do some WML filter stuff to generate the teleport points
20091218 23:30:26< alink> which is slow and will need caching
20091218 23:30:33< fendrin> I see.
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20091218 23:31:06< Crab_> for AI, most of the times, pathfinding is called once per ai move. or once a few ai moves (where the ai feels optimistic that all the moves can be done separately)
20091218 23:32:12< Crab_> and, if caution>0, there's another one potential pathfinding call per move (in retreat phase)
20091218 23:33:00< Crab_> (and, by 'pathfinding call' I mean "get all possible moves of all my units and all possible moves of all enemy units")
20091218 23:33:21< alink> fendrin: but mainly, it's the various little bugs and problems caused by the current teleport which make me be very cautious about how introduce a much more complex teleport system
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20091218 23:34:35< Zarel> shadowmaster: I think he wants an e-mail address that will forward his e-mail to every MP admin http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28171
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20091218 23:36:57< shadowmaster> not required
20091218 23:38:22< shadowmaster> if those people have forum notifications enabled, they'll receive an email from the forums prompting them to read their PM inbox
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20091218 23:42:41< alink> fendrin: in short, i suspect that the introduction of new working teleport code should be ok, but will be more a maintenance problem after that (bugs, AI, optimization). So, it must be started at the begining of a new dev release, which i missed/forget to do in the past
20091218 23:44:09< Crab_> alink: well, AI nowadays doesn't care much, it just gets the srcdst map from pathfinding layer, and it reuses movement code from src/actions.cpp to actually do the moves.
20091218 23:44:50< Zarel> shadowmaster: I mean, he's asking for some sort of messaging service that will reach everyone on the list, instead of just one of them at a time.
20091218 23:45:08< alink> Crab_: IIRC AI ignore teleport at some place. that's an example of "not fully cleanly supported" that i mentionned
20091218 23:47:06< alink> Crab_: yes targetting phase miss the teleport check, i will try to fix that
20091218 23:47:55< alink> also all call to simple distance_between ignore teleport shortcut
20091218 23:48:51< alink> which could be fixed by a new special distance_between_with_teleports
20091218 23:49:52< alink> another example of limitation of the teleport ability is that you can't use WML filter to select which villages can be used as teleport
20091218 23:51:04< Crab_> simple_distance is used in: determining the order of doing goto moves (doesn't matter much), recruiting initial scouts (deprecated code), moving leader to keep (this is important for teleporting leader), ...
20091218 23:51:05< Crab_> ... getting villages with scouts (old and quite obscure code), simple_move_and_targeting (important there)
20091218 23:51:42< alink> Crab_: thanks, it's true that i didn't know the relative importance of these calls
20091218 23:51:44< Crab_> (and in targeting phase, as you've mentioned, and in formula_ai - which simply provides the function)
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20091218 23:53:06< shadowmaster> Zarel: what I posted will reach everyone on the list
20091218 23:53:39< shadowmaster> in the group view page you can click on the big PM icon or the link in the description
20091218 23:53:40< Crab_> alink: well, some of these use cases can/should use a standard pathfinding, and some are ok even without checking for teleports...
20091218 23:54:50< alink> we can easily use a distance_between_with_teleports for fast check. We will need something very similar anyaway for the heuristic
20091218 23:56:14< alink> mmh there is also the problem of temporary blocked teleport
20091218 23:56:53< alink> something may look near assuming no blocking, but will be in fact very far if blocked
20091218 23:57:44< Crab_> alink: this is a rare case, isn't it ?
20091218 23:57:52< Crab_> 'can't teleport on ally (on fogged village, with no-leader and view not-shared)'
20091218 23:58:12< alink> for current teleport ability yes, for generic portal for all unit no
20091218 23:58:26< alink> it will be hot spot to control on the map
20091218 23:58:35< Crab_> this raises an interesting question...
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20091218 23:59:04< Crab_> 'pathfinding can be used to see if a certain fogged square of the battlefield is blocked' ?
20091218 23:59:27< alink> not with the current mouse UI
20091218 23:59:52< alink> it acts like an interrupted move action 
--- Log closed Sat Dec 19 00:00:12 2009