--- Log opened Mon Dec 28 00:00:09 2009
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20091228 00:02:00< Crab_> silene: 'placing initial units' is more then just 'for each unit in list for this save_id, do the placement' - it at least contains "if we have leader defined in directly in side tag, add it to list of units, as well, checking if we need to replace it with leader from previous scenario"
20091228 00:04:07< Crab_> and , the placement for leader differs slightly from placement of other units - and, in different mainline campaigns, it is handled differently. e.g. in HttT:1 the leader is placed using map starting position for his side, in other campaigns, his position is explicitly specified. It all will get more fun once multiple leaders are involved (some might start on recall lists, etc)
20091228 00:04:37< silene> Crab_: so what? if you think the [unit] action tag is not powerful enough (or if you think another tag is needed), then just improve it; for instance, we could add an attribute extract_from_persistent_side=save_id (bad naming on purpose)
20091228 00:11:59< Crab_> silene: yes, this might work. So, it all boils to adding a new tags for working with persistent sides and treating units/leader in [side] as '[unit] tags which are to be processed in a prestart event'  ?
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20091228 00:15:49< esr> I have been listening to this.
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20091228 00:16:31< esr> I need be, wllint could translate [side] declarations to unit declarations in a prestart event.
20091228 00:16:40< esr> wmllint, I mean.
20091228 00:16:52< esr> This would not be very difficult.
20091228 00:21:16-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.11, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 64 bugs, 246 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091228 00:22:57< Crab_> esr: will it be a step in the right direction ? right now , there are multiple ways to set a leader for side - e.g. specify him directly in [side], specify him via a [unit] tag in [side], specify him in [unit] in prestart event, unstore him from somewhere, etc. if there would be only one 'main' way to do it ([unit] tag in [event]), would it be better or worse ?
20091228 00:23:24< Crab_> (from a language design perspective)
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20091228 00:49:41< silene> Crab_: yes, that's what i had in mind; by the way, i have used something similar for lua: whenever the engine encounters a [lua] tag at scenario start, it puts it into a preload event for it be executed later
20091228 00:50:40< fendrin> Crab_: esr, silene: I believe what silene suggests would be a step in the right direction.
20091228 00:52:09< esr> Crab_: Yes, I think unifying side with unit generation would be a good thing.
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20091228 00:54:18< Crab_> ok, I guess that I'll (once 1.9 starts) do the 'ways to work with persistent sides' first, and then we'll see whether it is easy to use it. I'll use LoW's Olurf's story and Landar's betrayal as test cases, manually changing those scenarios to be written using the units-in-prestart style.
20091228 00:55:11< fendrin> Crab_: Sure, LoW can be used as test case for that qutie well.
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20091228 01:00:08< Crab_> it's quite easy to find places where campaigns are broken by :cl . for example, even DM has one error of such kind - in 20_prince_of_wesnoth, delfador leaves player control in prestart event, but is given back to player in a 'last breath' event of an enemy - so, if we :n from this scenario, Delfador is lost with all his levels, and is recreated as a journeyman again.
20091228 01:01:46< crimson_pinvin> Ivanovic: well my internet was working again, but then it stopped :P
20091228 01:02:02< fendrin> Crab_: I don't get why you write "even DM". DM is the best example for very complicated messing with recruit lists.
20091228 01:02:38< Crab_> fendrin: it's generally well-coded in that regard. HttT is much easier to break with :cl
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20091228 01:03:16< fendrin> Crab_: I take this as an compliment. But I am not satisfied with DM's coding right now. I think LoW is much cleaner.
20091228 01:04:00< fendrin> Crab_: A lot because of your help of course.
20091228 01:04:25< Crab_> fendrin: only if we fixed LoW 3 before the release. :)
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20091228 01:04:29< Crab_> fendrin: have we ? 
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20091228 01:08:14< fendrin> Crab_: I didn't. It was working well the last time I played through.
20091228 01:08:51< Crab_> fendrin: hmm :) can you check it now, please ?
20091228 01:09:12< fendrin> Crab_: Wait, maybe I did. I did much wesnoth related work in the last time, can't remember everything.
20091228 01:09:46< fendrin> Crab_: I will have a look during the week.
20091228 01:09:54< Crab_> fendrin: ok, thanks.
20091228 01:10:02< Crab_> good night
20091228 01:10:08< fendrin> Crab_: Bye
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20091228 01:15:31< CIA-28> crab * r40436 /trunk/src/game_events.cpp: [unit] in [event] - if side is not given, default it to 1, instead of complaining and aborting unit placement
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20091228 06:21:16-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.11, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 65 bugs, 246 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091228 09:03:54< CIA-28> silene * r40437 /trunk/data/core/macros/utils.cfg: Cleared missing variable. (Fix for bug #15004.)
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20091228 10:29:24< Ivanovic> moin
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20091228 12:21:18-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.11, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 64 bugs, 246 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091228 14:10:02< Ivanovic> hmm, who could have a look at this bug/patch regarding deactivation of debugmode in MP?
20091228 14:10:04< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/patch/?1392
20091228 14:10:20< Ivanovic> boucman: do you (in your position as patch monkey) have time to check it?
20091228 14:10:36< BroodKiller> wesbot: seen crimson_penguin
20091228 14:10:36< wesbot> BroodKiller: The person with the nick crimson_penguin last spoke 13h 8m ago.  6h 22m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message:
20091228 14:11:09< Ivanovic> can you also have a look at https://gna.org/patch/?1394 and comment it (also mentioning that applying will have to wait till post 1.8 due to the feature freeze)
20091228 14:12:11< boucman> Ivanovic: i don't like the second one... 
20091228 14:12:22< Ivanovic> then state this in the report itself
20091228 14:12:29< boucman> it's too easy to spam the current player
20091228 14:12:47< boucman> maye only make it act on non-active players
20091228 14:16:52< Ivanovic> personally i don't know how this feature will work and if it makes sense
20091228 14:17:21< Ivanovic> what i care about is that people submitting stuff see that we do act upon it somehow
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20091228 14:18:10< Ivanovic> no matter if this is a "hmm, don't like it because of A, B, C!" or "okay, looks good, but can't commit it atm because of feature freeze" or "okay, improve XYZ and it is ready for commit"
20091228 14:18:43< Ivanovic> the same as with this bugreport which sounds *really* strange and very system specific to me: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15002
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20091228 16:05:45< esr> Does anyone know why the --multiplayer switch exists?
20091228 16:08:57< silene> esr: mainly to benchmark the AI (agreed, it is a rather poor naming of the option)
20091228 16:10:36< esr> silene: I'm asking because of bug #13655: data/lua/wml-tags.lua not included when starting wesnoth --multiplayer.  If this witch is only used for AI benchmarking, should we simply mark this bug Wont Fix?
20091228 16:14:22< silene> esr: not sure; it is not just lua; lots of things are broken with this option (lua missing is just a symptom of the more general bug)
20091228 16:24:41< esr> Perhaps the option should be removed entirely, then.
20091228 16:26:01< boucman> esr: you should first ask crab, he might be using it for his AI automated tests
20091228 16:26:22< esr> I willl do so.
20091228 16:28:28< esr> boucman: Since you are here, is there any prospect of fixes for  #14964 and  #13106 and #13041 before 1.8?
20091228 16:29:25< boucman> wesbot: bug 14964
20091228 16:29:25< wesbot> Bug #14964  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20091228 16:29:28< wesbot> Summary: bad color blending for poisoned units
20091228 16:29:31< wesbot> Original submission: Greenish poisoned units have bad color transitions when w
20091228 16:29:34< wesbot> ounded (use an ugly bright green, which wrongly suggest that poison is involved)
20091228 16:29:37< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?14964
20091228 16:30:00< boucman> i'll look at that one right away
20091228 16:30:40< boucman> wesbot: bug 13106
20091228 16:30:40< wesbot> Bug #13106  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20091228 16:30:43< wesbot> Summary: Unable to scroll during unit actions
20091228 16:30:46< wesbot> Original submission: During unit movement or unit combat, map scrolling is not
20091228 16:30:49< wesbot>  possible.This is especially problematic when scroll tracking of unit action
20091228 16:30:52< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?13106
20091228 16:31:10< esr> boucman: #13041 seems like it should be easy to fix.  I could almost do it myself.
20091228 16:31:11< boucman> wesbot: bug 13041
20091228 16:31:12< wesbot> Bug #13041  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: None  Priority: 3 - Low
20091228 16:31:15< wesbot> Summary: Glitch when a submerged unit stands on an [item]
20091228 16:31:17< wesbot> Original submission: When a unit stands in for example water and there's an [i
20091228 16:31:20< wesbot> tem] on that hex, the item image will show through the half-transparent submerge
20091228 16:31:23< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?13041
20091228 16:31:37< boucman> the last one is (almost) impossible to fix, probably to be markes as won't do
20091228 16:31:46< esr> Oh, really?
20091228 16:31:51< esr> Why?
20091228 16:31:52< boucman> but i'll have a look at the three of them
20091228 16:32:17< boucman> don't remember, that's why I remember of last time I looked
20091228 16:32:30< esr> OK.
20091228 16:32:40< esr> See what you can do.
20091228 16:33:24< esr> I'm nudging because I think we passed a threshold in the last few days - the buglist looks almost trimmed enough for a 1.8 release.
20091228 16:33:39< boucman> ok
20091228 16:33:43< boucman> how many blockers ?
20091228 16:35:26< esr> Zero blockers, only 3 bugs graded Important.  That's the big difference from last week.
20091228 16:35:35< boucman> wow
20091228 16:35:45< boucman> might we target dec 31 ? :)
20091228 16:35:52< esr> Indeed wow.  It kind of snuck up on us.
20091228 16:36:37< esr> Dunno.  If I were Ivanovic I think I'd want to give the translators a bit more time - several are very close to complete.
20091228 16:37:25< boucman> ok
20091228 16:38:03< esr> I think 31 Jan 2010 might be achievable.
20091228 16:38:23< boucman> :P
20091228 16:38:31< esr> Why the sad face?
20091228 16:39:26< boucman> :P is not a sad fase, it's a tongue in the cheek...
20091228 16:39:31< esr> Ah.
20091228 16:39:41< esr> wesbot: topic
20091228 16:39:43-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.11, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 60 bugs, 246 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20091228 16:40:30< esr> Look at that. 60 bugs isn't bad, considering almost half of them are postponed GUI2 issues.
20091228 16:42:05< esr> No, I'm wrong.  Only 23 of them are.  Still, that's not bad.
20091228 16:47:58< silene> esr: there is a blocker, though it doesn't appear in the list; the multiplayer lobby won't stand the load of a stable release; it needs some more work from ilor and mordante
20091228 16:48:11< esr> Oh.
20091228 16:49:17< silene> some people tested it on the 1.6 server (the protocol didn't change much) and wesnoth crawled to a stop
20091228 17:02:40< CIA-28> boucman * r40438 /trunk/src/ (display.hpp unit_frame.cpp): fix color blending when a frame has more than one color to merge with, fix bug 14964
20091228 17:03:00< esr> boucman: I'm thinking #14954 is probably yours, too.
20091228 17:03:57< boucman> what makes you say so ? 
20091228 17:06:39< boucman> afk
20091228 17:08:32< esr> boucman: You're maintaining the animation subsystem, I thought.
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20091228 17:59:41< boucman> esr: (still afk) I am, but nothing says it's animation related
20091228 18:01:05< esr> You can deassign it, then.  It sounded to me like something in the animation system was not finding what it expected,
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20091228 18:21:16-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: released 1.7.11, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 59 bugs, 246 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20091228 19:38:20< esr> What the heck is the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork doing on *this* channel?
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20091228 19:57:56< Shar19> Could wesnoth use location-privacy cryptographic protocols to enforce fog of war (protecting against an opponent who has modified the code)?
20091228 19:59:01< Soliton> why shouldn't it?
20091228 20:00:15< Sapient> it's also possible to detect fog of war cheating with WML
20091228 20:00:30< Sapient> just use a filter_vision event on the first turn
20091228 20:00:42< Shar19> Soliton: Increased processor load, and increased latency after decisions are made. This is more problematic for RTS as opposed to TBS though.
20091228 20:01:21< Soliton> what does that have to do with whether it can be done?
20091228 20:02:12< Soliton> of course the chance that anyone is going to implement that is virtually zero, yes.
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20091228 20:02:53< Sapient> Shar19: how would save/load work with such a setup?
20091228 20:03:37< Soliton> the server would do the work.
20091228 20:04:55< Sapient> ok, if you have the ability to save and load the complete gamestate (apart from the server) then you have the ability to cheat.
20091228 20:05:58< Shar19> Sapient: you would save only your game state and request the other players to save their game states. Play can later continue.
20091228 20:06:19< Soliton> that's not enough.
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20091228 20:07:53< Shar19> Soliton why not?
20091228 20:08:15< Sapient> not sure if this is relevant or not, but introducing strong cryptography could make it illegal for some players to download or distribute
20091228 20:08:25< Soliton> why would the game state of all players constitute the whole gamestate?
20091228 20:09:06< Soliton> there can easily be information that no player knows about. like part of the map data.
20091228 20:09:16< Shar19> Soliton only player-specific states have to be private to prevent this kind of cheating. The rest can be public and saved to each gamestate
20091228 20:09:34< Soliton> uh, ok.
20091228 20:10:09< Shar19> There are cryptographic protocols for secure random number generation if some things have to be randomly decided
20091228 20:10:16< zookeeper> so when the game crashes and one of the players leaves for good, you can't resume the game anymore since you're missing their gamestate? awesome.
20091228 20:10:44< Shar19> zookeeper if they laeve for good what use is their gamestate? you can play on as if he has never existed
20091228 20:10:57< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: my internet's back... better get building!
20091228 20:11:06< boucman> what if someone else want to replace the missing player
20091228 20:11:11< zookeeper> ...so another player can take their place
20091228 20:11:17< ilor> Shar19: we don't need crypto for safe random numbers, the server can just generate them
20091228 20:12:11< Shar19> ilor if the server is also a player, then the server can cheat. In that case, crypto for safe random numbers serves a purpose
20091228 20:12:34< ilor> Shar19: server as a player is not really what Wesnoth is now
20091228 20:13:01< Shar19> ilor p2p multiplayer is not implemented yet?
20091228 20:13:36< ilor> Shar19: not really. There's a menu item that launches a local server to allow for simple lan play
20091228 20:13:45< Shar19> ilor for those cases.
20091228 20:13:59< ilor> I don't think it's an issue
20091228 20:14:15< Shar19> anyway, the replace a player that crashed thing
20091228 20:14:22< Soliton> we're not talking about issues. ;-)
20091228 20:14:42< Shar19> that means somebody has to save the whole gamestate and that player can cheat
20091228 20:14:45< Shar19> so it won't work
20091228 20:14:47< Shar19> thanks!
20091228 20:15:06< ilor> Shar19: so if one player drops, the game is over. great 
20091228 20:15:39< Shar19> ilor you misunderstood. I understand this won't work because somebody has to save the whole gamestate in order to allow for replacing a player that has dropped.
20091228 20:16:18< ilor> theoretically that could be the server
20091228 20:16:38< Shar19> ilor hopefully eventually you'd move to p2p ;)
20091228 20:16:39< ilor> but it could be too much of an added burden, since now it mostly just relays messages 
20091228 20:17:01< ilor> Shar19: why the push towards p2p?
20091228 20:17:01< Soliton> what would be the benefit of p2p?
20091228 20:17:15< Shar19> no spof
20091228 20:17:43< Soliton> yeah, we're struggeling with server availability...
20091228 20:18:26< Soliton> any serious arguments?
20091228 20:18:28< ilor> there's no spof because we have server2.wesnoth.org :P
20091228 20:18:38< Shar19> If somebody wants to play a version that is no longer officially supported, then there would be no more official server, and you'd have community fragmentation as numerous unofficial servers arise
20091228 20:19:10< Soliton> and we wouldn't have community fragmentation if everyone plays his own version via p2p?
20091228 20:19:33< Shar19> You wouldn't have fragmentation amongst the community that plays that specific version
20091228 20:19:55< deekay> Define: fragmentation
20091228 20:19:57< Soliton> i'm not following.
20091228 20:20:00< deekay> fragmentation even
20091228 20:20:07< Shar19> say
20091228 20:20:13< Soliton> if you want to play a specific version you host a server for that version.
20091228 20:20:13< ilor> Shar19: Wesnoth makes a high priority of maintaing MP compatibility between minor stable releases
20091228 20:20:41< Shar19> suppose in 25 years wesnoth dies and the official server is taken down
20091228 20:20:49< Shar19> people that still enjoy wesnoth wouldn't suffer from fragmentation
20091228 20:20:50< Soliton> what games use true p2p protocols anyway?
20091228 20:21:59< deekay> I don't follow how p2p would prevent fragmentation if wesnoth server goes down.. where would *all* players gather then?
20091228 20:22:01< Soliton> we did have a simple server built-in before but that's not really p2p either.
20091228 20:22:43< Shar19> deekay: you'd need to find a single node still connected to the network, but from that you'd regain connectivity to the network, there is no fragmentation.
20091228 20:25:04< deekay> Then you would need to find some active node anyway.... so if you lose official server, where do you start looking for a node?
20091228 20:25:09< Shar19> google? :P
20091228 20:25:32< deekay> And how you coordinate different nodes? 
20091228 20:25:51< Shar19> with the p2p protocol?
20091228 20:25:56< Shar19> :P
20091228 20:26:03< boucman> deekay: your wesnoth instance could connect to wesnoth.org the first time and use the complete list of previously known nodes to find a working one
20091228 20:26:05< Soliton> post on the wesnoth forum you're looking for a game and your IP; start a server, voila! p2p implemented.
20091228 20:26:20< deekay> boucman: I asuume it's 2035 and wesnoth.org doesn't exist.
20091228 20:26:30< Shar19> deekay there is probably confusion here: there is p2p game and p2p matchmaking, we're now talking about the latter
20091228 20:26:33< boucman> 2035 ?
20091228 20:26:45< deekay> <Shar19> suppose in 25 years wesnoth dies and the official server is taken down
20091228 20:26:51< boucman> oh
20091228 20:27:24< Shar19> deekay: if you find a single working node in the p2p matchmaking net, you could ask for a list of other peers. So long as you are connected to peers in the network, you can do matchmaking with the p2p matchmaking protocol
20091228 20:27:49< Shar19> similar to file searches / shares in p2p filesharing networks
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20091228 20:28:02< deekay> Shar19: So you ask node for all other peers known to this one node?
20091228 20:28:10< deekay> So you still need something like "trackers"
20091228 20:28:44< deekay> So if Bob has group of friends his node knows all his friends, but noone else unless someone of the connects to some "outside" node?
20091228 20:29:02< deekay> s/the/them/
20091228 20:29:30< Shar19> deekay "the network" is the collection of nodes in which it is possible to reach any other node in the collection
20091228 20:29:35< fendrin> Shar19: discussion about new wml features belongs where on the forum? WML workshop? coder's corner?
20091228 20:29:52< Shar19> deekay so long as you have a single active node still in "the network" you can connect to any other peer
20091228 20:30:02< fendrin> Shar19: sorry, I wanted to adress shadowmaster.
20091228 20:30:20< Soliton> what deekay was asking is how that network forms.
20091228 20:31:14< deekay> I guess Shar19 is assuming that it would be formed with official "node" still running, and preserve setup after this official node is down.
20091228 20:31:36< deekay> And new peers would google for some node that would be still in the network to learn other nodes.
20091228 20:31:41< Shar19> yes
20091228 20:32:03< Soliton> all of that is rather moot since there seems to be no real benefit to p2p apart from a hypothetical scenario though.
20091228 20:32:19< deekay> Yes.
20091228 20:32:29< stikonas> reduce the server traffic :)
20091228 20:32:31< boucman> yes
20091228 20:32:49< deekay> Cost of implementation >>>>...> gain
20091228 20:32:54< stikonas> I agree
20091228 20:33:02< boucman> and there is a big drawback of p2p
20091228 20:33:11< boucman> people have to open ports on their routers
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20091228 20:33:16< Soliton> yep.
20091228 20:33:23< boucman> thanks to the centralized server we can use tcp, 
20091228 20:33:26< stikonas> boucman: in 2035 IPv4 does not exists
20091228 20:33:27< mordante> servus
20091228 20:33:39< Soliton> nat will still exist.
20091228 20:33:42< deekay> Assuming the can open... are are not behing crazy admin with some uber firewall.
20091228 20:33:45< mordante> stikonas, I call that optimistic ;-)
20091228 20:33:48< boucman> stikonas: good point, let's wait for ipv6 before implementing p2p
20091228 20:34:24< boucman> and, my guess is that for security reasons they would still have to manually enable remote connections on their firewall (nat would disapear though, which is already great)
20091228 20:34:44< deekay> Meh, too many typos... I still need to get used to my new notebook keyboard :S
20091228 20:35:03< shadowmaster> someone called me?
20091228 20:35:48< fendrin> shadowmaster: I did.
20091228 20:35:55< Soliton> there will be no nat with ipv6? everyone has to take care to use unique IPs?
20091228 20:36:24< Shar19> Not necessarily need every users to open ports, just some, which you can call "supernodes". The requirement then becomes to connect to one active supernode in the network.
20091228 20:36:40< fendrin> shadowmaster: The discussion about new wml features (for example the tunnel) goes in what subforum? WML workshop or coder's corner or developer's discussion?
20091228 20:36:58< mordante> Ivanovic, thanks, read the #wesnoth log
20091228 20:37:04< shadowmaster> fendrin: no idea, forumers are usually useless when it comes to discussing ideas
20091228 20:37:30< shadowmaster> and nobody uses the dev discussion forum anymore
20091228 20:37:51< Shar19> anyway thanks
20091228 20:37:52< fendrin> shadowmaster: Uh, so discussion is pointless?
20091228 20:37:53< Soliton> fendrin: one of the latter two but yeah don't expect much useful feedback.
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20091228 20:38:15< boucman> fendrin: either WML (if it's about the syntax) or CC (if it's about the implementation) dev discussion is mainly for public discussions where we don't want normal users to intervene (but still public)
20091228 20:39:10< fendrin> I want to discuss it with you, the other developers.
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20091228 20:39:19< boucman> fendrin: irc :)
20091228 20:39:54< fendrin> IRC is so fast. People should take time for such things. And sleep over their opinions.
20091228 20:40:28< boucman> fendrin: ML 
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20091228 20:41:34< fendrin> boucman: uh, I don't read the ml regular myself ... 
20091228 20:41:43< boucman> you should :P
20091228 20:41:45< zookeeper> dev discussions forum sounds like the right place if you don't want the forum noobs to chime in.
20091228 20:42:09< zookeeper> i read the ML but very rarely bother to reply
20091228 20:42:17< shadowmaster> same here.
20091228 20:42:35< fendrin> zookeeper, shadowmaster: I need wml wizards to think about it.
20091228 20:42:44< boucman> zookeeper: that's fine, the ML it the place where we assume ALL dev listen, so it has to stay low traffic
20091228 20:42:48 * shadowmaster points at zookeeper 
20091228 20:42:55 * boucman points at zookeeper
20091228 20:43:05< boucman> :P
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20091228 20:43:16< zookeeper> well, i'm either here or on the forum...
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20091228 20:43:48< fendrin> zookeeper: A tag called [tunnel]. It takes a SLF for source and a SLF for destination.
20091228 20:44:26< zookeeper> ok
20091228 20:44:31< fendrin> zookeeper: All matching source locations are linked to the destination ones. That will work like the mage village teleport feature.
20091228 20:44:46< zookeeper> where can i put that tag?
20091228 20:44:55< fendrin> zookeeper: In an event.
20091228 20:45:17< boucman> fendrin: if it's in an event, how can the AI know about it ?
20091228 20:45:35< fendrin> boucman: The ai does pathfinding. 
20091228 20:45:37< boucman> it would be nice to have the teleport ability described using that syntax
20091228 20:45:52< Sapient> I suggest developer's discussions unless you plan to code it yourself, in which case use Coder's Corner. IMHO this will not be an easy thing to implement.
20091228 20:46:01< shadowmaster> AFAIK he already coded it himself
20091228 20:46:07< fendrin> Sapient: I have a working prototype.
20091228 20:46:08< zookeeper> fendrin, all right...what do you need a WML wizard for? :P
20091228 20:46:55< fendrin> zookeeper: To define the syntax well before I finish the implementation. Not that I miss something that brings me back to planning phase.
20091228 20:47:15< boucman> fendrin: i'm not sure I understand... if it's in an event, I can easily code teleporters using [tunnel] in a moveto (first time only=no) event, but the AI can't see the event, how would the pathfinding knox about that
20091228 20:47:26< boucman> or is it not related to pathfinding...
20091228 20:47:50< Sapient> fendrin: I guess the best forum for that is dev. discussions
20091228 20:48:12< Sapient> but typically it would be discussed on irc
20091228 20:48:19< boucman> fendrin: unless I get it wrong... the [tunnel] adds a tunnel, it does not actually move the unit...
20091228 20:48:28< shadowmaster> you'll probably need to allow it to be defined on [scenario] as [item]s, [label]s and [sound_sourcce]s are
20091228 20:48:32< shadowmaster> *sound_source
20091228 20:48:41< zookeeper> boucman, exactly
20091228 20:48:47< fendrin> boucman: The pathfinding is going to call a getter for the villages every time a pathfinding is called. I have added the call for the tunnel teleporters here as well. Well, to be correct I have unified the teleportation for both types.
20091228 20:48:51< boucman> ok, it makes much more sense that way...
20091228 20:49:04< shadowmaster> otherwise I don't know were you'll save that state information in the saved game.
20091228 20:49:25< boucman> fendrin: it would be cool if you somehow "unified" this with the teleport ability... but there's no emergency for that
20091228 20:50:03< fendrin> boucman: Right, didn't think of that until you mentioned it.
20091228 20:50:20< boucman> hehe
20091228 20:50:25< zookeeper> fendrin, got it. well, i suppose the [tunnel] tag itself is pretty straightforward, no? just wrap the SLFs in [source] and [destination] tags. additionally you'd need to unify it with the teleport ability.
20091228 20:50:57< boucman> fendrin: and (i'm not sure what i'm going to say makes sense but...) you might want to add a SUF too, to allow to easily select what kind of unit can use the tunnel
20091228 20:51:10 * fendrin is afk for a urgent rest room visit.
20091228 20:52:00< zookeeper> maybe you'd also like to add a [remove tunnel] (by an id given in the [tunnel] tag)
20091228 20:52:33< boucman> and a [modify_tunnel] ;)
20091228 20:53:11< shadowmaster> you can just remove and add a "new" one instead; don't we do that for [item]s ever snce it's made possible to stack them on top of each other?
20091228 20:54:17 * zookeeper doesn't parse
20091228 20:54:41< fendrin> zookeeper: yes, that is planned but I thought about a slf here as well.
20091228 20:55:03 * mordante gives fendrin a shovel... maybe you can necromance this thread http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14749
20091228 20:55:44< shadowmaster> Ideas forum should remain as a thread graveyeard
20091228 20:55:49< shadowmaster> *graveyard
20091228 20:56:12< zookeeper> fendrin, it _might_ be nice to be able to put regular conditional WML ([have_unit], [variable]) in [tunnel] too, so you could easily make a tunnel only be active when some variable is set or whatever.
20091228 20:56:20< shadowmaster> I'm not being serious, of course.
20091228 20:57:07< fendrin> mordante: Thank your for the link. It's not exactly what I am doing but similar enough.
20091228 20:57:57< mordante> fendrin, I know it's not entirely similar, but thought it might be interesting and close enough 
20091228 20:59:54< boucman> fendrin: zookeeper is right, there might be some generic conditional WML code you could lift to get SUF, SLF, etc... on one go
20091228 21:00:15< fendrin> mordante: Maybe the feature can be extended to what jetrel wanted at a later time. I should keep his request in mind.
20091228 21:00:42< boucman> fendrin: learn from the mistakes i made in animations...
20091228 21:01:00< boucman> make the syntax as generic as possible, so you don't need to upgrade it later
20091228 21:01:09-!- Crab_ [n=Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20091228 21:01:17< boucman> hey Crab_
20091228 21:01:32< Crab_> hi, boucman
20091228 21:01:33< boucman>  esr had questions for you wrt the --multiplayer command line switch
20091228 21:01:46< fendrin> shadowmaster: You raised an importent point. The teleport points need to be restored when loading a savegame. Are you sure this can't be done from inside an event?
20091228 21:02:54< Crab_> esr: yes, --multiplayer is used by my ai test script ( ' --nogui --multiplayer --controller1=ai --controller2=ai ...' )
20091228 21:02:55< shadowmaster> not sure - firstly, events used to be discarded from the game state (hence, saved games too) as soon as they became invalid (first_time_only=yes and already fired) around Wesnoth 1.0. That was the last time I looked at how events were stored in detail
20091228 21:03:00< zookeeper> fendrin, you just need to store the tunnels in the game state just like nested events are
20091228 21:03:24< Crab_> ( the script is in utils/ai_test/ai_test.py )
20091228 21:03:48< fendrin> zookeeper: Currently the tunnel locations are stored in game_map. Isn't the game_map part of the game state?
20091228 21:03:58< zookeeper> fendrin, i have no idea.
20091228 21:03:58< shadowmaster> secondly, [sound_source] caused some problems after its original implementation in 1.3.x (?) because as it was allowed and interpreted only in events, it was not carried in saved games so sound sources were definitively lost when reloading a game - issue which I fixed myself by making them be parsed in the same way [item]s and [label]s are
20091228 21:04:50< zookeeper> yeah, all those would probably serve as examples of how to do it...
20091228 21:04:53< shadowmaster> since that was a 1.5.x issue, and there are rumors that the underlying engine for saving games changed in 1.7.x, I don't knwo anymore
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20091228 21:06:22< fendrin> Who is the game_state expert?
20091228 21:06:34-!- shadowmaster_ [n=ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit []
20091228 21:07:52< fendrin> Or the savefile expert?
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20091228 21:09:46< fendrin> boucman: Adding a SUF isn't that easy. That would have to be checked every time the pathfinder is called. I am not sure if I can execute SUFs at that level.
20091228 21:10:06< boucman> fendrin: hmm good point
20091228 21:10:26< fendrin> boucman: The same maybe true for conditional wml.
20091228 21:10:31< boucman> feature wise, it would be very usefull, how often are we talking here ?
20091228 21:11:11< fendrin> boucman: Sorry, didn't understand your question.
20091228 21:11:27< crimson_penguin> what does S mean in svn?
20091228 21:11:31< Crab_> fendrin: note that,  for AI, avoid aspect, which affects AI pathfinding, can already accept a SUF to generate a set of avoided locations, althrough it is not recommented to use a SUF which can change when 'our' units move.
20091228 21:11:36< boucman> fendrin: is this once per unit moving, once per turn, or a few thousand times per turn ?
20091228 21:11:55< fendrin> crimson_penguin: svn = subversion. So the answer is "sub".
20091228 21:12:16< crimson_penguin> fendrin: noo, I mean with svn status
20091228 21:12:22< crimson_penguin> all my files are S
20091228 21:12:41< shadowmaster> I shall summon the SVN book
20091228 21:12:53< Crab_> shadowmaster: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/re26.html
20091228 21:12:53< shadowmaster> nah, just do svn status --help
20091228 21:13:20< shadowmaster> (fifth column) 'S' the item has a Switched URL relative to the parent
20091228 21:13:39< shadowmaster> whatever that means, I don't know. I rarely use svn anymore
20091228 21:14:25< fendrin> boucman: The pathfinder is called every time you move to mouse to a new hex when a unit is selected for example. The ai is relying on the pathfinder very heavy afaik. 
20091228 21:14:41< boucman> hmm
20091228 21:15:08< boucman> and the "tunnel map" would be  reconstructed completely every time ?
20091228 21:15:36< fendrin> boucman: If it is unit specific that would be a needed thing.
20091228 21:15:50< boucman> i see
20091228 21:16:03< fendrin> boucman: Or if there is a conditional wml construct involved.
20091228 21:16:10< Crab_> 'unit specific' which depends on the position of 'our' units would make the AI a lot slower.
20091228 21:16:41< Crab_> 'unit specific', which doesn't depend on the position of our units, will not have a large effect
20091228 21:16:55< boucman> fendrin: maybe do it the way Crab_ did, that would be a limited SuF, but probably enough
20091228 21:17:38< Crab_> fendrin: note that I allow, if it so desired, to specify a suf and say 'let this suf be recalculated on-demand, but no more than once per turn'
20091228 21:17:59< esr> fendrin: The savefile expert is jhinrichs
20091228 21:18:10< fendrin> The more and more we discuss the matter I get the idea that I should code a simple version that only connects to map points. That would work for every unit all the time. Everything else will make it horrible complex.
20091228 21:18:24< Crab_> fendrin: well, make it 'recalculate it once per turn'
20091228 21:18:42< Crab_> fendrin: let it allow a suf, it doesn't add much to complexity. but make it 'recalculate at turn start and stick to it'
20091228 21:19:03< Crab_> fendrin: after that suf is recalculated, it'll stay static for the entire turn
20091228 21:19:11< boucman> fendrin: i agree with Crab_, if you can't filter on unit type, UMC devs won't use it as much because it will be very limitating
20091228 21:19:16< fendrin> Crab_: That sounds doable.
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20091228 21:20:51< fendrin> boucman: The idea behind the feature was that ther are several "layers" of terrain in a single scenario map. Imagine a cave in a mountain but the mountain is also walkable on it's surface. There would be 2 disjunkt submaps that are only connect by tunnels on the cave entrances.
20091228 21:21:38< boucman> fendrin: yes, but my guess is that with a little more effort this feature could be used in so many new and inventive way that's it's definitely worth it
20091228 21:21:41< fendrin> boucman: Or a dungeon that has several "levels" .
20091228 21:21:45< boucman> solving a more generic problem...
20091228 21:22:05< fendrin> boucman: I agree. UMC authors may love the feature.
20091228 21:22:14< boucman> it's the whole "teleport" concept that can be made WML aware instead of relying on moveto events
20091228 21:22:27< esr> I'm coming in late, but I concur also.
20091228 21:22:27< boucman> which in turns makes the AI magically know about it
20091228 21:22:49< Crab_> boucman: but the ai will be still stupid enough to block it for itself from time to time :)
20091228 21:23:10< boucman> Crab_: from time to time is better than blissfully unaware
20091228 21:23:13< boucman> :)
20091228 21:23:23< Crab_> yes. and it can be fixed, I suppose.
20091228 21:24:39< boucman> Crab_: btw, I think the big 1.9 thing for the AI will be to make it better at last (i.e use all you've implemented so far to make the ai smarter)
20091228 21:25:33< Crab_> boucman: yes, at least now it is possible to get help from those who aren't willing to create a full AI but are willing to try to make a snippet to test some generic idea
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20091228 21:28:40< fendrin> Okay, but now we have spread the discussion to far for my scope. I need a clean interface to the part of wesnoth I am not familar with right now. Otherwise it will take just forever to finish it and hard to submit my code because the wesnoth codebase will have changed to much in the meantime.
20091228 21:29:41< boucman> fendrin: ok, we're listening...
20091228 21:29:48< esr> fendrin: What do you need, a WML syntax design?  I can do that; I have before.
20091228 21:30:36< fendrin> esr: You need to read the whole discussion. It started some 30 min ago.
20091228 21:31:09< esr> I think I have.  It started out pretty focused and then wandered into vagueness.
20091228 21:31:12< boucman> i like [source] [destination][unit] the way you said you would di, it sounds sane
20091228 21:32:31< fendrin> boucman: Okay, that is fine wml wise. On the c++ side I suggest to enhance the pathfinder to call a get_teleport_locations which will give it all teleports (villages for mages and the wml defined ones). Everything else should be done "outside".
20091228 21:32:54< boucman> sounds good
20091228 21:33:35< fendrin> For the first commitable version I want to skip the SUF but keep in mind that it will be added later.
20091228 21:34:23 * fendrin is hoping for help from Crab_ with this part of the task.
20091228 21:35:32< crimson_penguin> shadowmaster: ah, thanks; turns out it was a problem, and I needed to do svn switch again (I stopped in the middle last time)
20091228 21:36:55< fendrin> I still need an advise how to make it savegame persistent.
20091228 21:37:47< esr> Oh, I see.
20091228 21:37:56< shadowmaster> not reinventing the wheel is a good idea
20091228 21:38:17< Crab_> fendrin: 'SUF' part is hard to get right cleanly in 1.7 You'll need to make a wrapper class which will contain a getter of the list of teleports and recalculate it on first access if it is not valid, and that list should be invalidated at least if 1) turn changes 2) game map or terrain changes.
20091228 21:38:40< shadowmaster> I got distracted by someone else, but I consider [item]/[label]/[sound_source]'s behavior to be the best choice for that kind of objects
20091228 21:38:45< shadowmaster> *I still consider
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20091228 21:39:16< fendrin> shadowmaster: That would enable the usage in [scenario] and in [event] ?
20091228 21:39:30< shadowmaster> Yes. How that works, you'll need to figure that out by yourself now. Shouldn't be too difficult if you already messed with pathfinding :P
20091228 21:40:49< fendrin> Crab_: So I better wait for an easier framework to do such things that will hopefully be implemented in 1.9 or later?
20091228 21:41:26< Crab_> fendrin: there is existing general event framework in wesnoth (WML events). you can check if you can use it from c++ side
20091228 21:41:47< Crab_> fendrin: or, you can hack the required invalidation in 3-4 places where it's needed :)
20091228 21:42:51< Crab_> fendrin: but yes, I want to add a non-generic event system to be usable from c++ side to allow various places of c++ code to react to game state changes
20091228 21:43:06< Crab_> fendrin: AI has a 'generic event' system which handles such invalidation issues for the src/ai
20091228 21:44:27< fendrin> Crab_: I have seen it. You still double some of the other parts of wesnoth code in other concerns as well. If all that could be made generic it's surely a step in the right direction.
20091228 21:45:21< fendrin> Crab_: The actions.cpp for example.
20091228 21:46:29< Crab_> fendrin: actions.cpp don't modify the game state directly (except in one minor way - saying 'I'm done with this unit'). there is duplication there but it is intended to (later) use it allow the ai to operate with non-full information about the game state.
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20091228 21:47:22< Crab_> fendrin: i.e. the AI says 'if I want to do it and I think that i can do it, I try to do it'. the 'I think' part requires checking 'if action, from my point of view, is possible?'
20091228 21:49:16< Crab_> fendrin: I've got a feeling that you will need to write a cached value of current teleportation logic in the [snapshot] of the savegame, (and, also, make sure that it is recalculated correctly when watching the replay)
20091228 21:50:57< Crab_> fendrin: but I suggest that you consult with YogiHH (jhinrichs), because he spent a lot of time refactoring savegame code, and he might know of a better place to put this info
20091228 21:51:09< fendrin> I get the feeling that I have started a project much to big for my current skills.
20091228 21:51:10< Crab_> s/logic/tunnel list
20091228 21:51:35< Crab_> fendrin: well, ignore the 'extra' features and do at least a basic 'working' version
20091228 21:51:45< Crab_> fendrin: it can be always expanded later
20091228 21:53:48< Crab_> fendrin: for example, note that if you will accept your [tunnel] tag in [event] , you don't have to recalculate the value of the SLF
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20091228 21:54:32< Crab_> fendrin: as you can just say "please use a first_time_only="no" event to set up the 'current' list of tunnels any time you like, be it 'on new turn' or 'on moveto' "
20091228 21:55:14< Crab_> fendrin: and make it work. and then ask someone to make it persist across saves.
20091228 21:56:39< boucman> fendrin: and not being able to do it is the best way to learn :)
20091228 21:56:52< fendrin> Sounds like a plan. I have it working (Without the unit filter) but broke the mage village teleport instead. I will try to head for that as a first goal. Maybe this prototype can be commited to trunk after the release of 1.8 and it will grow to perfection during that release cycle.
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20091228 21:57:12< Crab_> sounds good
20091228 22:04:15< esr> Crab_: What are you actually using --multiplayer before?  It is buggy and seems rather vestigial; I'd like to remove it so our code complexity drops.
20091228 22:04:34< esr> s/before/for/
20091228 22:05:04< boucman> esr: http://wesnoth.terraninfo.net/
20091228 22:05:07< Crab_> esr: suggest an alternative  - I need to launch a MP ai-vs-ai scenario on a server without the console
20091228 22:05:51< CIA-28> ivanovic * r40439 /trunk/ (14 files in 13 dirs): updated German and Russian translation
20091228 22:05:52< Crab_> esr: of course, I can rework any MP scenario as a test scenario, but it will mean extra work. and --multiplayer worked fine for me.
20091228 22:07:51< Crab_> esr: there are any critical bugs in --multiplayer ? I am willing to fix them, for having an ability to test ai-vs-ai on any MP map is important to me.
20091228 22:08:24< boucman> Crab_: i think one of the pb is that lua doesn't work with --multiplayer, but it's the tip of the iceberg...
20091228 22:08:42< boucman> hving --multiplayer be more like the normal mp game would be the best way to do it
20091228 22:09:33< Crab_> boucman: so far, I haven't tried using lua for writing AIs, so 'lua doesn't work' is not an issue for testing skirmishers..
20091228 22:09:42< boucman> :)
20091228 22:09:56< Crab_> s/skirmishers/skirmishes
20091228 22:10:48< Crab_> I'll take a look at it, however.
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20091228 22:48:16< shadowmaster> AI0867: re the report for http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&p=400333&sid=11e6049ce575866c38f9a969c1dcb197#p400333
20091228 22:48:25< shadowmaster> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&p=400333
20091228 22:48:36< shadowmaster> I am aware of that. I'm observing that creepy guy
20091228 22:49:15< shadowmaster> as for http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&p=400340, I don't see the spam (yet)
20091228 22:51:52< Soliton> i wondered about that guy's posts as well.
20091228 22:53:08< shadowmaster> the last one took about 28 hours to insert the spam
20091228 22:54:34< loonycyborg> So they later edit their posts and add spam links?
20091228 22:55:06< shadowmaster> yes, as explained in http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/?p=24 :P
20091228 22:55:48< loonycyborg> Devious..
20091228 23:01:10< shadowmaster> I suspect it's based on the moderators being rarely interested in a topic enough to revisit its posts and watch any edits.
20091228 23:02:36< shadowmaster> it makes sense that if you want to slip the spam past the radar at all costs, you'll eventually figure out a method to defeat any kind of human-based spam protection.
20091228 23:02:52< shadowmaster> until the moderators learn too.
20091228 23:03:07< loonycyborg> That's an unending arms race :P
20091228 23:03:28< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: uploading
20091228 23:04:29< shadowmaster> loonycyborg: yes, it is. Custom registration hacks (which included randomizing our CAPTCHA's field id for POSTing the form) do not work against human-assisted spambots either.
20091228 23:05:14< shadowmaster> I had considered disallowing any sort of links from users with less than n post counts for a while and putting them into the moderator queue, but I found two problems:
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20091228 23:06:12< shadowmaster> a) users posting on TS, etc. have legitimate reasons to post links from time to time, an IMHO queuing their posts only serves for discouraging them from using our services.
20091228 23:06:37< shadowmaster> b) word filters tend not be enough.
20091228 23:06:44< shadowmaster> *not to
20091228 23:07:27< loonycyborg> word filters tend not be enough for what? Filtering links?
20091228 23:08:04< shadowmaster> of course
20091228 23:08:40< loonycyborg> Maybe you could somehow use a full html parser for that :P
20091228 23:09:37< shadowmaster> it's not that, it's the infinity of possible sites used in spam ads.
20091228 23:11:05< loonycyborg> What does it have to do with that? You only need to filter [url=..] and <a href=..>.
20091228 23:11:14< shadowmaster> you didn't read (a)
20091228 23:11:53< loonycyborg> Yes I did. I just though that points (a) and (b) are independent :P
20091228 23:12:01< shadowmaster> sure, we could also use some external service to check new registrations/new posts under a postcount of n, but then we may have problems with false positives, unavailable hosts, odd terms-of-service...
20091228 23:12:48< mordante> I'm off night
20091228 23:12:58< shadowmaster> having more admins or moderators would not be a solution since we already have too many of them and users need to be able to know who they should actually contact for help
20091228 23:13:10-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20091228 23:14:13< shadowmaster> the worst part is that probably 90% of those moderators aren't even useful, TBH
20091228 23:14:33< boucman1> couldn't we blacklist the urls in posts, thatway whenever someone adds a blacklisted url (be it signature, edit or post) we get warned ?
20091228 23:14:59< shadowmaster> yeah, we get back to (b) then
20091228 23:15:19< loonycyborg> Maybe there could be a central database with info on all known spambots across many boards.
20091228 23:15:46< shadowmaster> there are some sites for that; we get back at the part before mordante left
20091228 23:17:01< shadowmaster> reminds me I want to replace the Team page with something that actually tells users which of those red, olive and blue people are to be contacted for what
20091228 23:17:32< loonycyborg> Many of them tend to post the same stuff on multiple boards, that's allow those boards to pool their resources.
20091228 23:17:49< loonycyborg> *that'll
20091228 23:20:28< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: is the assumption correct that there were "no significant packaging changes" for the windows binary between 1.7.9 and 1.7.10?
20091228 23:20:45< loonycyborg> Yes.
20091228 23:20:49< Ivanovic> in general this report sounds like a clear case of "man, your system is *really* screwed!"
20091228 23:20:53< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15002
20091228 23:24:02< Ivanovic> what about whitelisting urls?
20091228 23:24:12< Ivanovic> as in pastebin sites that we know and all the likes
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20091228 23:27:59< loonycyborg> [01:11:39] <shadowmaster> sure, we could also use some external service to check new registrations/new posts under a postcount of n, but then we may have problems with false positives, unavailable hosts, odd terms-of-service...
20091228 23:28:42< loonycyborg> All those issues probably could be resolved. The question is whether it's actually worth the effort, but one will never know until he tries :P
20091228 23:31:13< shadowmaster> it's not worth the effort.
20091228 23:31:34< shadowmaster> I prefer to dream how shaxthals take over my university and make my day hell in it
20091228 23:31:46< shadowmaster> er, wrong one. I prefer to dream how spammers take over the forums and make my day hell.
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20091228 23:49:10< esr> Crab: Ah, so for your purposes --multiplayer == no console?  There us at least one bug,   #13655.
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 29 00:00:18 2009