--- Log opened Wed Dec 02 00:00:41 2009
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20091202 03:33:13< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh1: Hey.
20091202 03:33:47< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh1: Perhaps read the logs of #Wesnoth-dev because I had a fairly lengthy conversation with Crab_ a few hours ago about an idea you might be interested in.
20091202 03:34:01< Aethaeryn> http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/
20091202 03:34:30< Aethaeryn> I just finished making a fancy .ods chart relating to the idea, but Crab isn't online anymore. :(
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20091202 03:45:48< Ken_Oh1> cool
20091202 03:46:19< Blarumyrran> I have no idea how are you going to find people to consistently play that
20091202 03:47:10< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: what?
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20091202 03:49:25< Blarumyrran> As I understand, the idea presumes there are quite few unique players, who play under that format very often?
20091202 03:50:15< Aethaeryn> Yes. At least 4 online at a given time.
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20091202 03:50:23< Aethaeryn> At least, that would make it more fun.
20091202 03:50:52< Blarumyrran> And in all those games, each player would retain the same faction?
20091202 03:51:28< Aethaeryn> Well, your army can be a bit mixed, but AI diplomacy factors stops you from getting opposite units mixed.
20091202 03:51:44< Aethaeryn> In other words, mermen will always hate naga, drakes will always hate undead, mages will always hate undead, etc.
20091202 03:53:46< Ken_Oh> that's crazy. i'm going to have to re-read this when i get up in the morning. 
20091202 03:54:02< Blarumyrran> Wording that idea clearly would be the best you could do, I think
20091202 03:54:20< Blarumyrran> At least I think I still dont understand
20091202 03:54:54< Ken_Oh> i need to start hanging in wes-dev
20091202 03:55:14< Aethaeryn> well, I'm trying to clearly outline it in table form.
20091202 03:55:56< Blarumyrran> Hm?
20091202 03:55:57< Blarumyrran> How
20091202 03:56:25< Aethaeryn> Basically, you can recruit units that you are on friendly terms with.
20091202 03:56:29< Blarumyrran> ...
20091202 03:56:39< Aethaeryn> Friendly terms with the faction.
20091202 03:56:49< Blarumyrran> That is wholly irrelevant, I dont understand why you even concern yourself with that at this point
20091202 03:56:49< Aethaeryn> There's an opinion variable, from 0 to 100
20091202 03:56:55< Blarumyrran> I mean the actual game mechanism
20091202 03:57:01< Aethaeryn> ?
20091202 03:57:11< Blarumyrran> Well, like how it differs from a normal game.
20091202 03:58:12< Blarumyrran> You two seemed to slip over that weirdly fast in the log
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20091202 03:59:56< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: Remember Aethaeryn's Empires?
20091202 04:00:08< Blarumyrran> Hm
20091202 04:00:09< Blarumyrran> no
20091202 04:00:18< Blarumyrran> At least not the name
20091202 04:00:22< Aethaeryn> That map where you recruit via villages?
20091202 04:00:45< Blarumyrran> Right
20091202 04:00:50< Aethaeryn> Kind of like that.
20091202 04:00:59< Blarumyrran> "Kind of like that"
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20091202 04:01:41< Blarumyrran> You go on for thousands of lines about some race relations which are really trivial to think about, while the game format itself you do not discuss
20091202 04:01:41< Aethaeryn> Except you won't be able to just recruit a coalition army of elves and orcs.
20091202 04:01:53< Blarumyrran> Uh
20091202 04:02:01< Blarumyrran> Where does the whole thing with the GM come in?
20091202 04:02:10< Aethaeryn> Ah.
20091202 04:03:10< Aethaeryn> A different side of the issue.
20091202 04:03:41< Aethaeryn> Crab_ was thinking server-down I was thinking era-up.
20091202 04:03:46< Aethaeryn> Mostly.
20091202 04:04:28< Aethaeryn> In other words, I was talking about the era in use while Crab was talking about a more general planned feature in 1.9 which could relate to this add-on.
20091202 04:04:43< Blarumyrran> Ah I see I think.
20091202 04:04:54< Aethaeryn> Basically, the GM would allow people in the same MP campaign to play different scenarios simultaneously.
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20091202 04:05:13< Blarumyrran> So just Empire, with additional conditions on whether you can are allowed to recruit from that village
20091202 04:05:28< Aethaeryn> In other words, if you were playing a 2p HttT, one of you could choose sea and the other land after Bay of Pearls.
20091202 04:05:39< Blarumyrran> And if you kill elves, you cant recruit them after getting their villages?
20091202 04:05:47< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091202 04:06:05< Blarumyrran> So you would be wise to spam the units the enemy might get their hands on, against them.
20091202 04:06:09< Aethaeryn> Basically, if their opinion of you is under 33, you can't recruit. And if it's 34-49, it's more expensive.
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20091202 04:06:18< Blarumyrran> So that they would have to kill them.
20091202 04:06:24< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20091202 04:06:42< Aethaeryn> It's kind of purposeful, though. It basically forces people to play different factions, discouraging mirrors.
20091202 04:06:53< Blarumyrran> Uh
20091202 04:06:59< Blarumyrran> That depends on the map though?
20091202 04:07:11< Blarumyrran> Given that the units depend on the village
20091202 04:07:14< Aethaeryn> Well, this would be a bit of a grander scale.
20091202 04:07:20< Aethaeryn> Oh, about the villages...
20091202 04:07:25< Aethaeryn> You can actually build villages like in ANL.
20091202 04:07:42< Aethaeryn> So if there's only troll villages and trolls hate you, it's not like you can't recruit.
20091202 04:08:17< Blarumyrran> So that all doesnt presume any kind of "persistent world", right?
20091202 04:08:45< Blarumyrran> And that was wholly unrelated?
20091202 04:08:48< Aethaeryn> Well, the era would be playable in 1.8, but would be designed really to be used in this persistant game world in 1.9
20091202 04:09:09< Aethaeryn> Some things do presume a persistant game world.
20091202 04:09:29< Aethaeryn> For instance, the factional opinion variable could carry over between scenarios.
20091202 04:10:05< Aethaeryn> Also, what the factions think of each other could change over time...
20091202 04:10:10< Blarumyrran> The scenarios would be simple multiplayer maps?
20091202 04:10:16< Blarumyrran> Like blitz & charge?
20091202 04:10:24< Aethaeryn> Not necessarily.
20091202 04:10:34< Aethaeryn> While PvP is possible, there'd also be dungeons, cities, etc.
20091202 04:11:25< Blarumyrran> And the player cant choose what actual game he chooses, since the GM does that?
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20091202 04:11:55< Aethaeryn> No. The player can choose.
20091202 04:12:27< Aethaeryn> The GM basically hosts all the games as an observer.
20091202 04:12:30< Blarumyrran> ... there would be a list of the maps for dungeons, cities, and any 2 players that want to fight just fight on those?
20091202 04:12:35< Aethaeryn> And allows a player to enter mid-scenario or exit mid-scenario.
20091202 04:13:56< Aethaeryn> Well, the players don't have to fight each other.
20091202 04:14:38< Aethaeryn> The point is that it would be designed to be played over multiple days. You could fight another player right away, yes, but you could also go dungeons and fight generated AI, etc.
20091202 04:15:16< Aethaeryn> Think psuedo-MMOTBS since it wouldn't actually be massive, since there wouldn't be more than 9 players in one scenario at any given time.
20091202 04:15:32< Aethaeryn> Most of the time, probably 2-3
20091202 04:16:01< Blarumyrran> Leader/armies are not transferrable, right?
20091202 04:16:11< Blarumyrran> And are lost each time you leave a map?
20091202 04:16:22< Aethaeryn> No, leader would be transferrable...
20091202 04:16:26< Aethaeryn> And armies should be recallable.
20091202 04:17:10< Blarumyrran> So I could just go into a peaceful GM's scenario where I build a huge killing machine army, and then pop with that into a battle and kill everyone?
20091202 04:17:56< Aethaeryn> Yes, but good luck recalling them all.
20091202 04:18:10< Blarumyrran> Sure
20091202 04:18:26< Aethaeryn> The emphasis is also not on PvP.
20091202 04:18:26< Blarumyrran> I can recall a Grand Knight for 20 gold, why would I ever recruit.
20091202 04:18:50< mathstuf> couldn't the GM also just kick you out?
20091202 04:18:56< Aethaeryn> I know an easy way around that.
20091202 04:19:08< Aethaeryn> I could recruit lots of cavalry too.
20091202 04:19:27< Aethaeryn> Yes, cheaper cavalry. Cavalry you'd kill.
20091202 04:19:43< Aethaeryn> But, over time, the AI's opinion would turn against you for killing its own faction's units.
20091202 04:19:54< Aethaeryn> The cavalry human's faction.
20091202 04:20:34< Aethaeryn> Actually, that might in and of itself be an exploit. I'll probably have to make you lose no opinion points if you kill the own type with its own type.
20091202 04:20:37< Aethaeryn> Like orc with orc.
20091202 04:21:11< Aethaeryn> Anyway, the idea as given right now would be more PvE than PvP.
20091202 04:21:26< Blarumyrran> Mhm
20091202 04:21:29< Aethaeryn> And if anything, humans would cooperate in a dungeon rather than fight each other.
20091202 04:21:43< Aethaeryn> You basically give a good argument of why not to allow PvP though :P
20091202 04:21:51< Aethaeryn> It'd be no fun to fight a lvl grinder.
20091202 04:22:09< Blarumyrran> So I could just go into a peaceful GM's scenario where I build a huge killing machine army of race A, and then pop with that into a battle where i have to kill a couple of race B, and kill everyone without a challenge?
20091202 04:22:26< Blarumyrran> It ruins fighting against AI too I tihnk.
20091202 04:22:52< Aethaeryn> Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Afaict, the spawns can be adjusted via WML to match your forces.
20091202 04:23:13< Aethaeryn> In other words, if you enter the place with 10 grand knights, maybe the AI would have 10 direwolf riders.
20091202 04:23:20< Blarumyrran> So when I join mid-scenario, a lot of spawns will pop for the unsuspecting fellow players?
20091202 04:23:26< Aethaeryn> lol.
20091202 04:23:41< Aethaeryn> well, the spawns would have to be scripted to be "out of sight"
20091202 04:23:52< Aethaeryn> in other words, a good distance away from any player unit.
20091202 04:24:06< Aethaeryn> otherwise, it kills any realism feel of it if units start popping out of nowhere.
20091202 04:24:11< Aethaeryn> If anything, they'd be closer to you too.
20091202 04:24:16< Blarumyrran> Well that was not my point
20091202 04:24:32< Blarumyrran> My point was that then those spawns considered for my huge killing machine, will kill all other players
20091202 04:24:46< mathstuf> what if they came in a few turns after as if they were chasing the army?
20091202 04:25:00< Aethaeryn> I do understand your point though. Either dungeons get significantly easier (your big killing machine slaughters the already-existing AI) or significantly harder (AI spawns for your big killing machine, other humans can't help it)
20091202 04:25:39< Blarumyrran> mathstuf, even then the other players would almost certainly not appreciate that their units suddenly mean nothing because both you and the AI are so strong as to make them just hang around trying to stay alive
20091202 04:25:46< Aethaeryn> I do kind of like mathstuf's compromise, where they'd basically spawn behind you after a few turns (and possibly not match the main spawn monsters of the area) as if they're following *you*
20091202 04:26:13< mathstuf> could also have it so that you see what they actually spawn
20091202 04:26:44< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran does bring up valid points on how difficulty could be balanced.
20091202 04:26:45< mathstuf> sure i may have 10 L4 units, but if im only recruiting new units, don't bother flooding me with other L4 units
20091202 04:26:55< Blarumyrran> Aethaeryn, I do not think this is about balance
20091202 04:27:07< Blarumyrran> or resolvable balance, at least
20091202 04:27:15< Blarumyrran> I think it's fundamentally going to be unplayable
20091202 04:27:29< mathstuf> the GM also may block off things
20091202 04:27:39< mathstuf> "no L3+ recalls in this instance"
20091202 04:27:48< mathstuf> as entry instances
20091202 04:28:00< Aethaeryn> Yes, perhaps recalls can be limited in instances where the existing-difficulty is much lower than your current units.
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20091202 04:28:49< Aethaeryn> Nothing stops it from being like many actual MMORPGs, too
20091202 04:29:10< mathstuf> though less applicable here, something to keep in mind: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/virtual_mafia_i.html
20091202 04:29:12< Aethaeryn> In other words, yeah, you can be a really high level guy in the newbie dungeon, but you'll make next-to-no gold/items/xp
20091202 04:29:27< Aethaeryn> So if you're more powerful, go to the actually-more-powerful areas.
20091202 04:29:48< Blarumyrran> Aethaeryn, why would you want to be powerful if you are not let use it?
20091202 04:30:10< Blarumyrran> Given that the essence of this is playing with others
20091202 04:30:19< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: In this instance, it would merely be that you don't really have that big of a motivation to use your power.
20091202 04:30:25< Aethaeryn> In a weak area.
20091202 04:30:40< mathstuf> I've also discussed something similar to this with friends (about how an MUD pokemon-like game could work)
20091202 04:30:43< mathstuf> may be applicable here
20091202 04:30:43< Aethaeryn> Besides, who ever said recalling would be 20g?
20091202 04:30:59< mathstuf> have people start in their town (kingdom here)
20091202 04:30:59< Aethaeryn> Recalling costs could be variable.
20091202 04:31:22< mathstuf> dungeons closer to the kingdoms would be easier
20091202 04:31:29< Aethaeryn> In other words, if the GM detects that the area would be too easy, recalling could cost up to equal to the unit value
20091202 04:31:38< Aethaeryn> 20 would just be the minimum recall value
20091202 04:31:41< mathstuf> as you travel out, things get harder
20091202 04:31:52< mathstuf> let really strong players form their own kingdoms
20091202 04:32:18< Aethaeryn> Yes, it would be interesting if strong players could form their own kingdoms, set their own quests, etc.
20091202 04:32:22< mathstuf> from which new players could start
20091202 04:32:26< Aethaeryn> There's motive to be strong.
20091202 04:32:32< mathstuf> creates its own expansion
20091202 04:32:40< Aethaeryn> You could literally turn your large-enough-base into a city.
20091202 04:33:01< Aethaeryn> Bases would be built similar to a building mod and would persist. Villages built in battlefields would lose ownership once you left.
20091202 04:33:06< mathstuf> and each city/kingdom has existing relations
20091202 04:33:18< Aethaeryn> There are existing relations, actually.
20091202 04:33:25< Aethaeryn> That's the chart I went through earlier.
20091202 04:33:34< mathstuf> well, thered be more than one kingdom
20091202 04:33:39< mathstuf> of each race
20091202 04:33:44< mathstuf> and they may not like each other
20091202 04:33:54< mathstuf> so it may not be that pure
20091202 04:34:11< mathstuf> orc of A vs. orc of B increases tensions
20091202 04:34:15< Aethaeryn> There's 5 different kinds of human factions relations to each other.
20091202 04:34:28< mathstuf> orc of A and orc of B doing a dungeon together eases them
20091202 04:34:48< Aethaeryn> N. Humans (urban, infantry-focused), S. Humans (rural, cavalry-focused), Outlaws, Mages, and Undead/Necromancers (Undead can't think for themselves, so the *human* necromancers that control them count as human)
20091202 04:35:05< mathstuf> substitute orc for any of race
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20091202 04:35:19< Aethaeryn> Then there's Dwarves, Normal Elves, Elite Elves (shamans, lords, ladies), Orcs, Drakes, Merfolk, Nagas, Saurians, Trolls, and Woses.
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20091202 04:35:39< Aethaeryn> Woses are paired with Elves, Nagas with Saurians. Otherwise, each faction has their own building.
20091202 04:35:57< Blarumyrran> If you enforce limits, it would be like playing normal wesnoth, except that you would have to play the game for a certain amount of time to be able to play some maps, no?
20091202 04:37:01< Aethaeryn> well, the details aren't really worked out...
20091202 04:38:03< Aethaeryn> It's more of a proposed method of allowing an MP campaign to have players in different scenarios at the same time, and a proposed era with a recruitment method, faction diplomacy, and faction opinion system designed to be played on such a MP campaign system.
20091202 04:38:13< Aethaeryn> The actual details haven't really been worked out.
20091202 04:38:47< Aethaeryn> And work on the MP system won't start until after 1.9.0- svn starts, right now trunk is still leading up to 1.8.
20091202 04:39:13< Aethaeryn> Most of the era system can be made because most of the WML is already written by other people. Just mix a little ANL with a little Empires and add the factional variables...
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20091202 04:39:39< Aethaeryn> Making the factional variables changeable is only really going to be worthwhile when the 1.9.x MP campaign system is implemented since slightly-changing diplomacy over one scenario isn't going to do much.
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20091202 04:40:22< Aethaeryn> The whole reason I brought it up is to get some ideas, in particular from Ken_Oh, who unfortunately left.
20091202 04:40:30< mathstuf> hmm
20091202 04:40:33< mathstuf> how about this as well"
20091202 04:40:54< mathstuf> if a player leaves for a while, his army slowly dissipates into rogue units
20091202 04:41:02< Aethaeryn> I'm certain Ken_Oh has worked out similar things to what I wanted with the dynamically-changing kingdoms/factions in the background while things are going on... just for an RPG, not for this.
20091202 04:41:37< Aethaeryn> mathstuf: Personally, I'm not a big fan of deterioration. It encourages checking frequently.
20091202 04:42:00< mathstuf> time period is changeable
20091202 04:42:02< mathstuf> months?
20091202 04:42:09< Aethaeryn> That's doable.
20091202 04:42:28< Aethaeryn> One of the reasons I'm playing Wesnoth and not certain other games is that I simply don't want to play a game I have to check daily anymore.
20091202 04:42:50< Aethaeryn> I can go two weeks or more without Wesnoth and I'm not penalized in any way.
20091202 04:42:58< Aethaeryn> I'm not sure if these campaigns would last months, though.
20091202 04:42:58< mathstuf> since its a changing world, having a standing army after not playing for 6 months would be sort of weird
20091202 04:43:00< mathstuf> yeah
20091202 04:43:03< mathstuf> true
20091202 04:43:14< Aethaeryn> I'd think it would have to do something like reset every 2 weeks or every month.
20091202 04:43:28< Aethaeryn> Considering Wesnoth only has 2-4 levels per unit.
20091202 04:43:36< Aethaeryn> You'd simply max-out eventually.l
20091202 04:43:38< mathstuf> yeah, makes sense
20091202 04:43:53< Aethaeryn> Yes, you could set xp to 200 and create intermediate levels and stats...
20091202 04:44:06< Aethaeryn> Perhaps making it so, for instance, you have the same unit for multiple levels.
20091202 04:44:27< Aethaeryn> Such as thief = lvl 1-5, rogue = lvl 6-10, assassin = level 11-15
20091202 04:44:47< Aethaeryn> I'd think that would be more for an RPG era and not a Wesnoth-style one, though.
20091202 04:44:56< mathstuf> the luck based individualization thing would have time to take affect there as well
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20091202 04:48:12< Aethaeryn> But anyway, yeah, I'd imagine a persistant, free-form MP campaign would not last forever.
20091202 04:48:26< Aethaeryn> Perhaps there would be certain conditions that would end it, and players could coalition to try to get the desired ending.
20091202 04:48:40< Aethaeryn> E.g. turn the leader of every kingdom into a walking corpse
20091202 04:49:04< mathstuf> :)
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20091202 04:49:20< mathstuf> interesting: http://gitorious.org/heroes-of-wesnoth
20091202 04:50:10< Aethaeryn> Yes, afaik any Wesnoth forks were by one-man or small projects and are basically dead.
20091202 04:50:29< Aethaeryn> Unless there's been any progress on the HoMM clone with the Wesnoth tileset in the last 1.5 years, since I remember that thread from a long time ago.
20091202 04:50:52< Aethaeryn> There has also been 2-3 RPG forks of Wesnoth attempted.
20091202 04:51:32< mathstuf> yeah, almost 3 months since last activity
20091202 04:52:08< Aethaeryn> Right.
20091202 04:52:41< Aethaeryn> Afaik, there's no successful fork of Wesnoth. It's best just to heavily modify it via WML, and, if you want to program, just add WML capabilities to make your ideas possible.
20091202 04:54:37< mathstuf> yeah...its very different
20091202 04:54:42< mathstuf> well
20091202 04:55:03< mathstuf> similar, but its fallen behind
20091202 04:57:06< mathstuf> manual Makefile :/
20091202 04:57:13< Aethaeryn> I personally think the future of Wesnoth is not improvements to core Wesnoth, but rather improvements to what Wesnoth can do via WML.
20091202 04:57:32< mathstuf> yeah, i can see that
20091202 04:57:37< mathstuf> the core mechanics are solid
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20091202 05:11:02< andrewtrapani> Hey WML question, http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=27962
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20091202 07:20:05< Huston> wow it is so silent in here. anyways i just wanted to say that in all honesty the 1.7.9's Multiplayer server UI is not as eye catching as the 1.6.5 Multiplayer server UI.
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20091202 07:22:51< Blarumyrran> I cant agree
20091202 07:23:00< Blarumyrran> Its much more "eye catching" :>
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20091202 09:15:20< sakuraischerry> hi
20091202 09:15:28< C_Bob> 'ey.
20091202 09:17:22< sakuraischerry> I try to build Wesnoth with xcode, but I have a lot of bugs. Firstly, I 
20091202 09:17:51< sakuraischerry> can't build Wesnoth MP Server. Please help me.
20091202 09:18:53< C_Bob> Unfortunately, I have no worthwhile experience with XCode, or in fact, with building any applications whatsoever.
20091202 09:18:55< C_Bob> Sorry, man.
20091202 09:19:40< C_Bob> For people who can help, though, it might be a good idea to try to explain what some of the bugs are that you've encountered, and maybe your version of XCode as well (in case there's any differences from version to version).
20091202 09:22:41< sakuraischerry> C_Bob: ok. My Xcode is version 3.2. 
20091202 09:26:31< sakuraischerry> I received error message(Undefined symbols:"wesnothd::room_manager::~room_manager()", referenced from:)
20091202 09:27:46< C_Bob> Hrm, is that all?
20091202 09:31:19< C_Bob> Well, like I said, I have a rather significant lack of knowledge regarding this, but maybe someone here can speak up eventually.
20091202 09:32:39< C_Bob> If you don't have a lot of time to wait here, it might not be a bad idea to post your request, along with the information you've given me, and anything else you can find that might be relevant (additional bug reports that might surface, where you got the thing you're trying to build, etc.)
20091202 09:32:44< C_Bob> on the forums.
20091202 09:33:38< sakuraischerry> C_Bob: Thank you. Error messages is 28. 
20091202 09:34:02< C_Bob> Hrm; if there's some sort of error message list, it might not be a bad idea to copy-paste that into a forum post.
20091202 09:35:59< sakuraischerry> C_Bob: ok. I try to copy-paste into forum.
20091202 09:36:34< C_Bob> Well, not just the error message list, of course. Be sure to include all the other information as well.
20091202 09:37:20< C_Bob> Y'know. Try to provide as much info as you can to the people who'll try to work through your problem.
20091202 09:37:43< sakuraischerry> C_Bob: ok.
20091202 09:39:54< sakuraischerry> I try to debug wesnoth-1.7.9 with Mac Compile Stuff 1.6.1 by Xcode 3.2. 
20091202 09:40:58< C_Bob> 'kay, might as well throw that into your post.
20091202 09:43:27< C_Bob> Which forum do you plan on posting in?
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20091202 10:13:46< sakuraischerry> C_Bob: I want to post in   Board index » BfW - Users » Release Announcements, Compiling, and Installation.
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20091202 15:03:20< Pickle_> Hello
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20091202 15:07:14< Pickle_> Good morning
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20091202 15:15:52< Soul_keeper> Good work Pickle_ 
20091202 15:16:23< Pickle_> good work?
20091202 15:16:45< Soul_keeper> your attitude is inspiring
20091202 15:17:06< Pickle_> Saying hello?
20091202 15:17:11< Soul_keeper> yeah :)
20091202 15:17:19< Pickle_> Ah ok. heh.
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20091202 15:30:29< Ivanovic> hi
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20091202 19:50:09< harryBer> нет
20091202 19:50:35< harryBer> ops... wrong window
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20091202 22:01:51< C_Bob> Another exciting day on #wesnoth.
20091202 22:02:49< Soul_keeper> http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Tooth-extraction-RC-car-girl,news-5244.html
20091202 22:02:53< Soul_keeper> :)
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20091202 22:26:15< Cyber_Rock> Ipsilon: wanna play?
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 03 00:00:50 2009