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20091214 11:30:06< Ivanovic> moin
20091214 11:30:36< talsemgeest> Heya Ivanovic :)
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20091214 11:34:02< moraes> hoi
20091214 11:37:21< moraes> you know, wml is such a curious thing. i wonder why a new markup was invented instead of using an existing one or a even a embeddable scripting language
20091214 11:37:34 * moraes hides
20091214 11:37:58< moraes> i'm very new to all of this, so don't take me too seriously
20091214 11:37:59< moraes> ;)
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20091214 11:43:37< Ivanovic> because at the beginning of wesnoth everything was tiny and small
20091214 11:43:44< Ivanovic> there an own markup lang made lots of sense
20091214 11:43:53< Ivanovic> things evolved over the years and got bigger
20091214 11:44:17< Ivanovic> and not, converting to something like eg xml now is not possible since *lots* of content would have to be converted
20091214 11:44:55< moraes> yes. now it is close to impossible.
20091214 11:46:53< moraes> i don't think xml would be the best thing since it contains logic.
20091214 11:47:10< Ivanovic> that is the lang mentioned most often
20091214 11:47:18< Ivanovic> so just giving it as example
20091214 11:47:22< moraes> ok
20091214 11:47:26< Ivanovic> beside this: WML works nicely for wesnoth
20091214 11:47:28< Ivanovic> ;)
20091214 11:47:35< moraes> yup :)
20091214 11:48:06< moraes> new devs keep wondering about it i bet
20091214 11:48:28< Ivanovic> no, they just accept it
20091214 11:48:42< moraes> hehe. seriously.
20091214 11:49:09< Ivanovic> why should new devs wonder about it?
20091214 11:49:24< Ivanovic> they see an infrastructure that "Just works" and devs tend to be fine with this
20091214 11:49:49< Ivanovic> that is: most devs tend to be practical people, thinking "how to make XYZ work"
20091214 11:50:28< moraes> well. because at first glance you think something else would be easier to learn (since you *already know* other markups and stuff for this job)
20091214 11:50:50< moraes> i mean. new devs may wish that it was not a "proprietary" format.
20091214 11:52:45< Ivanovic> it is not proprietory
20091214 11:52:57< Ivanovic> that is: what you mean with "devs" is probably "content developers"
20091214 11:53:11< Ivanovic> most of those tend to not be "hardcore coders" but more along the lines of "normal users"
20091214 11:53:27< Ivanovic> for those it really does not matter if it is some common lang or specific for wesnoth
20091214 11:53:30< moraes> "proprietary" in the sense that it is not used in other projects
20091214 11:53:40< Ivanovic> uhm, wml is used in another project
20091214 11:53:54< moraes> ah.
20091214 11:53:57< Ivanovic> it is called "frogatto"
20091214 11:54:35< moraes> frogatto looks cool! :)
20091214 11:58:31< moraes> i'm not a c++ dev. i'm trying to translate wml to javascript :P 
20091214 12:00:06< zookeeper> wait, what?
20091214 12:00:51< zookeeper> doesn't sound like a sane plan to me. is that for a browser thing?
20091214 12:01:34< moraes> it is. few processing when possible. a map is just a json array etc. these stuff.
20091214 12:02:34< Ivanovic> moraes: uhm, this conversion is not easily possible
20091214 12:02:41< Ivanovic> in wesnoth are preprocessor macros
20091214 12:02:48< Ivanovic> (yes, in wml)
20091214 12:03:19< moraes> yes, it must be rewritten from scratch. and simplified. etc.
20091214 12:04:33< zookeeper> so what is it that you're doing, exactly?
20091214 12:05:31< moraes> i started making a browser based map editor
20091214 12:05:49< moraes> but now i think i'll go a little further and try to make it playable
20091214 12:06:59< Blarumyrran> There was a browser-based wesnoth somewhere
20091214 12:07:23< Blarumyrran> I even registered & tried it, and if the players had been more persistent, it wouldve worked out
20091214 12:07:59< moraes> was there? cool.
20091214 12:08:19< zookeeper> moraes, err, well, doesn't that mean you'd basically have to rewrite the whole engine in javascript or something?
20091214 12:08:43< moraes> zookeeper, yes. it does.
20091214 12:09:08< moraes> i just want to learn. later i can use the engine for other games, if i ever finish it anyway. :P
20091214 12:10:56< Blarumyrran> http://www.denizengames.com/grandstrategy/denizen.html it was there, but it's down now. It never got fully implemented
20091214 12:16:15< moraes> html5 + javascript for client side, python for backend. i'll use google app engine.
20091214 12:18:07< moraes> froggato graphics are so cute, hehe: http://blog.frogatto.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/monster-redesign-preview.png
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20091214 18:18:10< Azag> hi
20091214 18:18:31< Azag> I have some problems with wesnoth in wmii
20091214 18:18:37< Azag> the buttons don't work :S
20091214 18:22:56< Ivanovic> wmii ???
20091214 18:22:59< Ivanovic> what is wmii?
20091214 18:25:25< Azag> uhm, a windows manager for gnu/linux, bsd, etc...
20091214 18:26:25< Ivanovic> which version of libsdl are you using?
20091214 18:26:33< Ivanovic> if you are using 1.2.14 downgrade
20091214 18:27:40< Azag> Ivanovic: I don't have that package installed
20091214 18:28:04< Ivanovic> if you don't have sdl installed, it it not possible to compile/start wesnoth *at all*
20091214 18:28:05< Ivanovic> ;)
20091214 18:28:37< Azag> extra/sdl 1.2.14-1
20091214 18:28:37< Azag>     A library for portable low-level access to a video
20091214 18:28:37< Azag>     framebuffer, audio output, mouse, and keyboard
20091214 18:28:37< Azag>  
20091214 18:28:42< Azag> that?
20091214 18:28:43< Ivanovic> jupp
20091214 18:28:51< Ivanovic> downgrade to 1.2.13
20091214 18:29:26< Azag> ok, I will have to compile :'(
20091214 18:29:49< Azag> a next version of wesnoth will solve that problem?
20091214 18:34:49< ceninan> Azag, you on Arch? I think there is a way to grab old packages, if you've had the previous version before
20091214 18:35:04< Azag> True, I will see
20091214 18:35:05< Azag> w8
20091214 18:37:45< Azag> ceninan: no, I don't have it :(
20091214 18:38:00< Azag> Ivanovic: you know if the next version os wesnoth will solve this bug?
20091214 18:38:20< ceninan> Azag, :(
20091214 18:38:31< Azag> ceninan: you use arch?
20091214 18:38:44< ceninan> windows :)
20091214 18:38:50< ceninan> I did, for a while
20091214 18:39:29< Azag> ceninan: :o you are masochist ? :P
20091214 18:39:46< Azag> (is a joke only :P)
20091214 18:40:15< moraes> ubuntu has a problem with a dependency too
20091214 18:40:15< ceninan> I had some driver issues under Linux which made me unable to properly use my tablet, *and* blender, so I did it for pretty much the opposite reason :P
20091214 18:40:43 * ceninan has been wanting to get back to Linux for development though
20091214 18:40:50< moraes> i forgot which one, i added a comment in launchpad when i found a similar one. wesnoth wouldn't quit
20091214 18:41:19< moraes> installed the right lib and tada!
20091214 18:41:20< Azag> moraes: yes, the problem here is that arch have the new version of sdl
20091214 18:41:21< Azag> :S
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20091214 18:45:06< moraes> invasion from the unknown has some hard scenarios.
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20091214 18:49:59< Azag> problem solve :D
20091214 18:50:14< Azag> with 1.2.13 wesnoth work :D
20091214 18:53:56< ceninan> :)
20091214 18:55:02< Rhonda> Azag: The bug is not in wesnoth from what we understand.
20091214 18:55:31< Rhonda> moraes: sound, pulseaudio
20091214 18:55:55< moraes> uh?
20091214 18:56:12< Rhonda> Your issue with wesnoth on ubuntu.
20091214 18:56:19< moraes> ah ok
20091214 18:56:38< Rhonda> libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio installation solves it.
20091214 18:57:01< Rhonda> It's actually an sdl packaging isue in ubuntu - and I'm deadly annoyed by them not fixing it. :/
20091214 18:57:36< Ivanovic> Azag: we can't fix the problem you have since it is an sdl bug
20091214 18:57:49< Ivanovic> Azag: if you have any good info on how reproduce it, it is clearly welcome
20091214 18:58:14< Ivanovic> the matter is that the libsdl maintainer (yes, external from wesnoth) was informed about the issue some weeks ago but is not able to reproduce it himself
20091214 18:58:31< Azag> Ivanovic: ok, you say in a next version of sdl it will be solve?
20091214 18:58:45< Ivanovic> Azag: this is not sure
20091214 18:58:57< Ivanovic> we informed the libsdl maintainer, he is the one who has to fix it
20091214 18:59:08< Ivanovic> though fixing is difficult if you can't reproduce the issue
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20091214 19:56:48-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth to: Wesnoth User Channel | wesnoth.org | http://addons.wesnoth.org | latest stable version: 1.6.5 | latest development version: 1.7.10 aka 1.8-beta3 | public IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com
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20091214 21:10:14< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh: There?
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20091214 21:36:25< Ken_Oh> yeah
20091214 21:36:28< Ken_Oh> i am now
20091214 21:37:55< Aethaeryn> Ken_Oh: Remember living villages?
20091214 21:38:39< Ken_Oh> yeah
20091214 21:40:40< Ken_Oh> Aethaeryn: yeah, i think we talked about this. the code might be worth looking at, but it's probably not suitable for using again outright.
20091214 21:41:16< Aethaeryn> Do you plan on reworking it for 1.8 sometime?
20091214 21:42:56< Ken_Oh> No and yes. It is supposed to be part of a project in the future (which will build upon much of Wesband's utilities), but I wasn't planning on making it stand alone.
20091214 21:43:21< Ken_Oh> Like, if you needed the functionality for something else, I'd actually be happy to make it for you.
20091214 21:43:47< Ken_Oh> If you have some params you're thinking of, shoot 'em at me.
20091214 21:44:33< Aethaeryn> Well, I just thought that something like living villages mixed with my dynamic diplomacy system I'm planning would be perfect for the 1.9 "MP campaign" I was planning with Crab the other day.
20091214 21:44:58< Aethaeryn> The one where there's persistant scenarios on the backdrop of factions that dynamically change over time, including changing their diplomacy toward each other.
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20091214 21:45:41< Aethaeryn> Basically, the AI diplomacy toward each other affects how they modify their opinion of the player, which affects what you can build and recruit.
20091214 21:45:58< Aethaeryn> So if you recruit an elf, orcs will like you less, and if you recruit undead, a lot of groups (especially mages) will like you less.
20091214 21:47:06< Aethaeryn> I'm about to splice together bits of ANL with some recruit-via-villages code I'm using in my mappack and adding variables (static for now) as a kind of test-of-concept, but I won't start the main thing until 1.9
20091214 21:51:13< Aethaeryn> In other words, my idea consists of AI-controlled villages that change and interact with each other (trade/war/etc.)
20091214 21:51:23< Ken_Oh> Nice.
20091214 21:51:34< Ken_Oh> That sounds like my kind of game. 
20091214 21:52:10< Soul_keeper> i'd play it :0
20091214 21:53:40< Ken_Oh> Well, if you want any help, I'd be willing to lend a hand at parts. I am planning to do something living village-esque for Wesband too, but that's a little ways off. 
20091214 21:56:25< Aethaeryn> Basically, this is very similar to what you have in mind.
20091214 21:56:29< Aethaeryn> It's just a different kind of gameplay.
20091214 21:57:19< Aethaeryn> It's a bit of a mix of different concepts I liked... Basically, peasants can build things ANL style, but research and economy is simplified the Wesnoth style... You just build villages to recruit different units at the villages (all available right away, maybe tech can give you lvl 2s or hero units)
20091214 21:58:01< Aethaeryn> So you can still have fun with terrain, but no need to have peasants just sit on farmland and collect gold. They're basically universal workers. Perhaps I'll make it so you can start as other groups later, but right now you have a human core, but can build different buildings based on relations.
20091214 22:00:36< Aethaeryn> In other words, it takes away the worst part of ANL: not being able to fight for the first 10 turns as you try to explain to people how it works.
20091214 22:00:56< Aethaeryn> Anyone who's played an RTS with buildings should know "hey, peasants = workers and build villages, villages = buildings and get you the war units"
20091214 22:01:13< Aethaeryn> In other words, all the complexity needs to be invisible to the player, like the AI opinion thing
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20091214 22:02:48< Ken_Oh> yeah, makes sense
20091214 22:02:53< Ken_Oh> hard on the coder ;)
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20091214 22:08:05< Aethaeryn> Nah, I'm lazy.
20091214 22:08:17< Aethaeryn> I try to think of as many things I can recycle as possible, not reinventing the wheel.
20091214 22:08:20< Aethaeryn> That's why I love GPL
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20091214 22:24:21< Aethaeryn> Actually, my greatest strength in WML coding is probably minimalism.
20091214 22:24:45< Aethaeryn> I try to express the most out of a small number of lines.
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20091214 22:48:28< moraes> i want to see that avatar movie
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 15 00:00:02 2009