--- Log opened Sat Dec 19 00:00:42 2009
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20091219 00:50:13< Yura87> |-|3llo.
20091219 00:50:22-!- Yura87 is now known as GeorgeGhoal
20091219 00:51:16< GeorgeGhoal> Why did an o-src project decide to have a certain portation paid?
20091219 00:51:36< shadowmaster> s/portation/port/
20091219 00:51:55< shadowmaster> There's nothing wrong with it. Period.
20091219 00:52:32< GeorgeGhoal> I mean @pple's !Ph0ne portation, $5
20091219 00:52:57< noy> yeah, so?
20091219 00:53:58< GeorgeGhoal> When I was talking of spreading Wesnoth on CD's and giving $ to the project, you said "it opposes the nature of the project", and at the same time, you make an iPhone port paid
20091219 00:54:14< noy> Okay thats ALOT difference
20091219 00:54:45< noy> basically the person made a major investment of effort to port it. 
20091219 00:55:01< noy> without financial renumeration for his service it would have never happened
20091219 00:55:01< shadowmaster> ...helps to read the forum threads, by the way
20091219 00:55:05< noy> exactly
20091219 00:56:04< GeorgeGhoal> but spreading on CD's (including delivery to those lacking Internet) would give the Project MUCH more $
20091219 00:56:16< noy> Ummm I really doubt it
20091219 00:57:19< noy> andand you're not doing the same as what he did
20091219 00:57:42< noy> what you're suggesting takes no technical ability
20091219 00:57:59< noy> what he did basically was three months of full time development
20091219 00:58:08< noy> just to get something working
20091219 00:59:06< GeorgeGhoal> Someone with an _old_, _crappy_ PC and no Internet (in Russia, there's quite a lot of such users) would like Wesnoth as something unique, not like those h3roes of m1ght and m@gic, or other po0p
20091219 01:00:17< shadowmaster> Wesnoth is something unique alerady.
20091219 01:00:33< shadowmaster> and I own old, crappy PCs and almost no Internet :3
20091219 01:01:09< noy> I think you're overstating matters; how many people actually downloaded the stripped down binaries when we offered them?
20091219 01:01:39< noy> I think the last count was 38, versus 200k
20091219 01:01:49< GeorgeGhoal> _almost_. in Russia, there's a lot of people who have a PC and barely even heard of Internet.
20091219 01:02:00< noy> 38 downloads
20091219 01:02:10< noy> vs 200k for the regular version
20091219 01:02:34< shadowmaster> I still don't see what the issue of computer analphabetism has to do with Wesnoth. :3
20091219 01:02:35< GeorgeGhoal> 38 betas VS 200k of full?
20091219 01:03:10< noy> no... 38 downloads of the stripped down version of wesnoth we used to offer versus the 200k of regular versions at that time
20091219 01:03:31< GeorgeGhoal> 38 downloads of "micro"?
20091219 01:04:16< noy> ... I've explained this twice now
20091219 01:04:38< GeorgeGhoal> Micro editions... eww!!! sounds like a DEMO. who would get a DEMO if FULL is just on next page?
20091219 01:05:01< noy> We used to offer two versions of wesnoth; a much smaller one for people with poor internet, and the regular version for everybody else
20091219 01:05:16< noy> and only 38 people ever downloaded the small version
20091219 01:05:44< noy> which blows a hole in your claim that there is a massive market for CDs
20091219 01:06:24< GeorgeGhoal> Massive market of those LACKING internet, not those having BAD internet
20091219 01:06:51< noy> Good to know. Still, thats also different from what Kyle did
20091219 01:07:02< noy> you'd be selling wesnoth, the source code
20091219 01:07:14< noy> thats problmatic
20091219 01:07:32< noy> What Kyle did was offer his services to create a port
20091219 01:07:58< noy> he offers a free version of his game
20091219 01:08:09< noy> if you want it
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20091219 01:08:21< noy> its a very different situation than what you're suggesting it is
20091219 01:08:57< shadowmaster> GeorgeGhoal: the people who would get a DEMO are the same people lacking regular, stable access to the Internet, which you had mentioned just some minutes ago.
20091219 01:10:02< shadowmaster> it doesn't make sense to provide a stripped-down version for Wesnoth anymore due to the great amount of high-resolution graphics and long music tracks
20091219 01:10:21< GeorgeGhoal> lack of STABLE internet is what you are talking about, I'm talking about COMPLETE LACK OF INTERNET
20091219 01:12:07< Aethaeryn> Russia doesn't have Internet?
20091219 01:12:28< Aethaeryn> when I lived in the middle east 6 or 7 years ago, which is probably more developing than Russia, I had Internet access (although slow)
20091219 01:12:38< noy> So how would they know about it GeorgeGhoal ?
20091219 01:12:50< noy> how would they buy these games off of Ebay?
20091219 01:13:22< GeorgeGhoal> Quite a lot of PC users here lack internet, the majority of PC users have out-dated PC's, junk-gifted by richer friends.
20091219 01:13:48< noy> GeorgeGhoal: seriously there are so many holes in your train of logic that its not worth discussing this with you
20091219 01:13:49< GeorgeGhoal> I don't mean eBay, I mean Wesnoth CD's in average retail stores
20091219 01:14:10< noy> GeorgeGhoal: they you are SELLING THE SOURCE CODE. Thats illegal. 
20091219 01:14:57< GeorgeGhoal> Selling a compiled version, when those people (later) gather Internet, they can get |s_code| for free
20091219 01:15:01< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: It's too expensive to have CDs in retail stores.
20091219 01:15:01< noy> seriously start reading what I've been saying and stop thinking you've got some sort of legitimate leg to stand on, because you don't.
20091219 01:15:10< Aethaeryn> Most countries require a game to be rated to be on the shelves
20091219 01:15:15< noy> Aethaeryn: thats a whole other issue that makes this ridiculous.
20091219 01:15:18< Aethaeryn> And to rate a game, that costs hundreds or thousands of dollars.
20091219 01:15:18< shadowmaster> ew, rating :x
20091219 01:15:47< Aethaeryn> Probably thousands if you want it on the shelves in Europe and America since they have different standards in each country.
20091219 01:15:54< Aethaeryn> (UK, EU, DE, US, etc.)
20091219 01:16:11< GeorgeGhoal> In Russia, there is government rating system, afaik
20091219 01:16:30< Aethaeryn> Yes. But generally, rating systems require a fee that pays the reviewers.
20091219 01:16:38< Aethaeryn> I know the ESRB has a pretty large fee.
20091219 01:16:52< GeorgeGhoal> and Wesnoth is likely to earn something like T- or E
20091219 01:17:14< GeorgeGhoal> T- is something that is between T and E standards
20091219 01:17:28< Aethaeryn> Probably T- since there's no blood.
20091219 01:21:22< GeorgeGhoal> there is: E, T-, T, T+, M, M+, A. 4-grade system isn't suitable for overly wide variety of games present today
20091219 01:22:01 * shadowmaster yawns
20091219 01:23:13< GeorgeGhoal> Even if there's no government rating system, it will be created soon, as our government tries to regulate internet, media and gaming
20091219 01:23:23< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_European_Game_Information <- doesn't Russia use this?
20091219 01:23:31< Aethaeryn> Considering "Europe excluding Germany" is listed as using PEGI?
20091219 01:23:57< Aethaeryn> afaik, it's basically AU, UK, US, EU, and DE that are the Western ratings.
20091219 01:24:31< GeorgeGhoal> PEGI/ERSB are used now (depending on where the game goes from), but soon there will be one system, all games would have to be re-rated to it
20091219 01:25:10< Aethaeryn> Yes, and ESRB costs at least several hundred dollars, and assumes the game is commercial...
20091219 01:25:15< Aethaeryn> Imo, ratings are dead.
20091219 01:25:22< noy> Who cares about this anyway?
20091219 01:25:22< Aethaeryn> Digital distribution is the new way to play games.
20091219 01:25:45< noy> Its a useless discussion on soemthing that will never happen
20091219 01:25:48< Aethaeryn> So many games are made cheaply, bypass publishers/raters/other-fees, and thus make better profits.
20091219 01:25:58< noy> then again I know you just like to talk Aethaeryn so whatever
20091219 01:26:04< Aethaeryn> Browser games, flash games, Facebook games, phone games, etc., are all digitally distributed.
20091219 01:26:26< Aethaeryn> noy: when I'm bored, yes.
20091219 01:26:30< GeorgeGhoal> RGGI will control gaming experience, and there will be a Russian version of Windows, on which no game can run without being rated
20091219 01:26:44< Aethaeryn> lol.
20091219 01:26:59< noy> So that makes it okay to just sprout on about something tangental to the actual conversation?
20091219 01:27:17< Aethaeryn> I'm sorry, I doubt that will in-practice happen... "No game being run without being rated"
20091219 01:27:34< Aethaeryn> DRM is basically universally hated by the end-user and is often circumvented.
20091219 01:27:59< GeorgeGhoal> A site with unrated game(s) will be blocked, with redirect to RGGI official policy documentation
20091219 01:28:01< Aethaeryn> In fact, there is some evidence that DRM encourages pirating the game in question rather than buying the locked-down game.
20091219 01:28:45< Aethaeryn> So I predict three things happening: (1) piracy of Windows or use of other OSes going up in Russia, (2) circumventing web filters going up in Russia, (3) the system being dropped in a few years after 1 and 2
20091219 01:29:02< Aethaeryn> People don't like being restricted.
20091219 01:29:10< John_R_R> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixLE3iuszbU
20091219 01:29:27< noy> people also don't like when discussions get hijacked by useless junk
20091219 01:29:52< Aethaeryn> noy: I thought you said this isn't happening?
20091219 01:29:59< Aethaeryn> So doesn't that end the original conversation?
20091219 01:30:14< noy> didn't see an end to it above
20091219 01:30:44< GeorgeGhoal> Gaming applications have several signatures, by which RGGI DRS would recognize them, and turn the game down if it's not found in the database
20091219 01:30:44< noy> instead I just saw you start going off about ratings then onto the eventual increase of privacy
20091219 01:31:09< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: Anyway, I wish the RGGI luck in monitoring the entire internet for every single game not major enough to be rated.
20091219 01:31:36< Aethaeryn> The only effective way to monitor the Internet is a whitelist not a blacklist... In other words, only letting approved sites through a filter rather than filtering "bad" websites.
20091219 01:32:08< GeorgeGhoal> Entire internet? more of just signatures of gaming applications, and if game isn't found in the database, it's blocked
20091219 01:32:43< Aethaeryn> What about flash-based games? There's probably 10x as many in-browser games than downloaded games these days.
20091219 01:33:10< Aethaeryn> And why would anyone willingly buy a version of Windows that cuts their gaming options severely?
20091219 01:33:20< GeorgeGhoal> oh, bb games? block any Java or SWF that has any signatures of a game
20091219 01:33:23< Aethaeryn> Most games are *not* sold these days.
20091219 01:34:40< GeorgeGhoal> Pirates and xplat-dogs (those making a cross-platform version of a game, and, of course, without CD protection)
20091219 01:34:41< Aethaeryn> It just sounds rather ridiculous, that's all, but I guess most governments are about 10 years behind technology trends.
20091219 01:35:45< GeorgeGhoal> 10? Ours is like 3 years behind the technology trends.
20091219 01:36:00< Aethaeryn> I *really* think that a restrictive system will encourage circumvention and piracy, because if someone wants to play a game or use a program or visit a website and cannot, they probably won't give up.
20091219 01:36:01< noy> Aethaeryn before you continueto expound your pet theories about censorship and whatever I suggest you go and read Edward Luttwick's article in I think 2002 issue of survival: Power relations in the new economy
20091219 01:36:41< GeorgeGhoal> it was like 10 years of lag like 2 years ago
20091219 01:37:09< Aethaeryn> GeorgeGhoal: I guess it's a bit of an exaggeration, but so far every legislation I've heard about in any country (including America) seems to be rather ignorant to technology.
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20091219 01:37:31< noy> seriously Aethaeryn thats just ridiculous. 
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20091219 01:38:17< noy> I think the Russians and the chinese are pretty adept at manipulating the internet for their own ends
20091219 01:38:35< noy> Ask the Latvians and the Georgians if you disagree. 
20091219 01:38:41< GeorgeGhoal> Our government just tries to protect the society from "media infection" from the "stupid west"
20091219 01:39:04< noy> GeorgeGhoal: yeah, thats its aim and they do an excellent job of it
20091219 01:39:06< Aethaeryn> I personally think that government intervention seems to hurt small business and individuals while only being concerned with big business.
20091219 01:39:26< Aethaeryn> For instance, mandating a rating system would help out the big commercial games that can afford the fees to be rated, but would hurt most independent developers.
20091219 01:39:31< noy> whats that supposed to mean?
20091219 01:39:43< shadowmaster> is this #wesnoth or ##philosophy? :P
20091219 01:39:51< Aethaeryn> In other words, I think 90% of games simply could not be rated in a pay-for-a-rating system.
20091219 01:40:07< noy> no its #wesnoth-Aetharyn'sunsubstantiatedopinions
20091219 01:40:10< Aethaeryn> If the proposed RGGI requires no fee to get a game rated, nevermind, but I know that the ESRB and a lot of other systems require it.
20091219 01:40:15< Zarel> rofl
20091219 01:40:18< GeorgeGhoal> Rating would be free, as there would be like 10 raters, who wouldn't know the name of the game before playing
20091219 01:40:26< IRCas_apple> :|
20091219 01:40:48< GeorgeGhoal> "Pass the free rating or be blocked"
20091219 01:41:18< IRCas_apple> Is Wesnoth gonna be outlawed?
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20091219 01:41:32< GeorgeGhoal> The rating system would get money from users, updating databases in their PC's.
20091219 01:42:18< Aethaeryn> noy: First of all, a 2002 theory of information technology as it relates to government might not work in the world of 2009. Technology advances faster than politics, is my point... In 2002, Windows XP wasn't even out.
20091219 01:42:23< noy> Seriously Aethaeryn this is the last thing I'm going to say to you; Read alot more, talk alot less. #1 you go off on these tangents that are almost always just basically wrong #2 nobody cares because they are tangents and just wrong. 
20091219 01:42:41< Aethaeryn> My point is not that government is anti-technology but rather that government should be kept more current on technology.
20091219 01:42:43< noy> Guess what; Policy does not equal implementation
20091219 01:42:52< Aethaeryn> Honestly, the RGGI being free kind of kills one of my base assumptions.
20091219 01:42:59< noy> Anybody with an even basic understanding of government knows that
20091219 01:43:19< noy> Its implemented by people living in 2009, who understand 2009 trends
20091219 01:43:22< Aethaeryn> So if Wesnoth "gets outlawed" it could easily be rated in Russia if mandatory
20091219 01:43:34< Aethaeryn> I was just afraid of a backdoor "big gaming only" system, that's all.
20091219 01:43:54< noy> Want a book to read on that? Street LEvel bureaucrats is a good start. 
20091219 01:43:57< GeorgeGhoal> Updating databases would give the rating department the money they need
20091219 01:44:04< noy> Or implementation, Second edition. 
20091219 01:44:36< Aethaeryn> noy: I used to be a political science major. I'm not as ignorant as you might suggest.
20091219 01:44:55< noy> you'd fool me by making that statement. 
20091219 01:45:14< GeorgeGhoal> one comes to the department: "I can't launch True Crime: Streets of LA", the service man says call our specialist to install the new database"
20091219 01:45:20< noy> I guess the constitution of the United States is outdated because it was written in the 18th century?
20091219 01:45:47< noy> I guess because it didn't consider murder by a laser its not really murder? 
20091219 01:46:02< Aethaeryn> ...
20091219 01:46:36< Aethaeryn> Some things never change, such as murder being murder.
20091219 01:46:46< Aethaeryn> Some things change, such as the nature of technology and the Internet.
20091219 01:46:49< noy> Well thats the same as claiming because a law that was enacted in 2002 doesn't have current trends in mind makes it outdated
20091219 01:46:53< GeorgeGhoal> Russian Government Gaming Information requires database updates to run a new game
20091219 01:47:04< Aethaeryn> I personally believe that most governemnts do not keep up with technological trends as fast as the trends themselves are made.
20091219 01:47:12< noy> Again, loo at the article I cited earlier by Edward Lutwak
20091219 01:47:19< Aethaeryn> And that the Internet throws a lot of laws into question.
20091219 01:47:21< noy> it makes a very good argument that its not that different from before
20091219 01:47:33< shadowmaster> afk
20091219 01:47:35< Aethaeryn> For instance, if I use a copyrighted image in my blog, what happens?
20091219 01:47:39< noy> Aethaeryn: what is government made up of?
20091219 01:48:09< Aethaeryn> noy: Institutions.
20091219 01:48:13< noy> Wrong
20091219 01:48:15< noy> People
20091219 01:48:31< GeorgeGhoal> RGGI will restrict Internet, there'll only be RGENet (Russian Government's Educational Network)
20091219 01:48:33< Aethaeryn> People's too general of an answer, I kind of figured you'd pick something stupid like that.
20091219 01:48:42< noy> People who operate according to set beliefs and the like. Who live in the same time as you and me
20091219 01:48:50< noy> Institutions are nothing more than concepts of organizations and the norms that go with them
20091219 01:49:04< noy> Well you seemingly just keep forgetting that
20091219 01:49:06< Aethaeryn> noy: And the higher up the chain of command you go, the less in-touch a bureaucracy gets.
20091219 01:49:34< Aethaeryn> While ordinary people might be in place in the lower positions, I'd suggest that the majority of leadership are rich old white men.
20091219 01:49:36< noy> Uh, no
20091219 01:49:52< noy> Actually some of the most perceptive people I've ever met are deputy ministers
20091219 01:50:06< noy> or deputy secretaries
20091219 01:50:20< noy> They get there based on merit and their ability to understand issues. 
20091219 01:50:26< noy> Thats even more true in the United States. 
20091219 01:50:42< Aethaeryn> You have to judge a system by its results.
20091219 01:50:49< Aethaeryn> Look at how FEMA handled Huricane Katrina.
20091219 01:50:50< GeorgeGhoal> Like 12 games being rated for each of the 7 grades, ported to RGEOS (Russian Government's Educational OS) and Windows RR (Russian Restricted)
20091219 01:51:03< noy> I guess Arne Duncan is completely out of touch with education 
20091219 01:51:08< noy> doesn't know a thing
20091219 01:51:20< Aethaeryn> Actually, I really don't like the educational system. :P
20091219 01:51:41< noy> of course a regular lay person knows better than he does, working on an issue for decades
20091219 01:51:54< GeorgeGhoal> RGEOS will come out in 2011, and will be based on Ubuntu with government's restrictions
20091219 01:51:57< noy> Nobody said that government is perfect, but its not completely static either
20091219 01:52:33< Aethaeryn> I think the educational system is really screwed up, based on observations of my peers.
20091219 01:52:39< noy> in areas like these where technology changes rapidly, you need to look at the individuals working on these issues rather than a static view of the law
20091219 01:52:48< Aethaeryn> And I honestly think that other countries will pass America in average intelligence pretty soon if they have not already.
20091219 01:53:13< GeorgeGhoal> RGEOS will be Bubuntu (Ubuntu with Blackbox desktop), with 3 DRM's
20091219 01:53:16< Aethaeryn> Again, judge a system by its results: Americans are exremely ignorant in geography, for instance. Many could not even find Iraq on the map.
20091219 01:53:44< noy> did you listen to the meet the press discussion with Duncan, Gingrich and Sharpton last month?
20091219 01:54:07< Aethaeryn> No. I don't like politics anymore. It bothers me.
20091219 01:54:20< noy> ... you really could have fooled me
20091219 01:55:05< Aethaeryn> For instance, I believe that the national debt is unsustainable.
20091219 01:55:18< GeorgeGhoal> Medvedev and Putin are trying to prevent the computerized part of the society from being infected by western media junk
20091219 01:55:29< noy> uh, you're talking about politics
20091219 01:55:54< noy> Anyway as I've got stuff to do
20091219 01:55:56< noy> ttyl
20091219 01:55:57< Aethaeryn> Yes. That doesn't mean I enjoy talking about politics.
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20091219 01:56:07< GeorgeGhoal> all the schools will have RGEOS, rather than MS#
20091219 01:56:30< Aethaeryn> But whatever, in 10 years, if America is better off, noy's right. In 10 years, if America's economy never fully recovers, I'm right. Boy, I hope I'm wrong on politics.
20091219 01:57:19< GeorgeGhoal> RGEOS will be ported for mobile devices to keep the restrictions intact
20091219 01:58:09< GeorgeGhoal> so nobody will even bother downloading, say, Super Lenin (a Mario clone with blood)
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20091219 01:59:37< GeorgeGhoal> So, we all will be afraid of even subscribing for Internet connection
20091219 02:03:24< GeorgeGhoal> even I wouldn't have inet when RGEOS and RGENet come out
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20091219 02:56:40< Aethaeryn> there's a directory called "~/real-life"?
20091219 02:57:25< Aethaeryn> I'm afraid what I'd find (or rather what I would *not* find) if I did a "dir real-life"
20091219 02:57:37< Espreon> Heh...
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20091219 03:06:19< shadowmaster> you'd find lots of invalid inodes.
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20091219 03:06:28< shadowmaster> with weird, impossible attributes.
20091219 03:08:07< Aethaeryn> Not to mention all the malware in the dir "real-life"
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20091219 09:33:31< levelup> hi, how i can made 1024x600 resolution?
20091219 09:34:24< levelup> game made 1024X768 by default
20091219 09:34:53< levelup> but i need 1024X600
20091219 09:35:26< levelup> help please!!!
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20091219 09:55:05< fendrin> levelup: The game has a preferences in which you can chose the resulution. If run in window mode it should resize to the size of the window.
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20091219 15:47:23< Ivanovic> hi
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20091219 16:01:43< Lightstriker> hello
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20091219 16:23:14< Lightstriker> Hey, for anyone who happens to be here, where do replays go? By which I mean more precisely, where is the "saves" folder?
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20091219 18:15:54< moraes_> Lightstriker, which system?
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20091219 18:18:21< Hugen> hey
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20091219 18:32:07< shadowmaster> Lightstriker: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EditingWesnoth#Where_is_my_user_data_directory.3F
20091219 18:32:16< shadowmaster> the 'saves' directory under that dir.
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20091219 19:38:31< Lightstriker> thank you shadowmaster
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20091219 20:36:26< Elvenisko> hello everyone. how can i start an event, when anyone from side1 attacks side2?
20091219 20:52:51< zookeeper> grep for name=attack
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20091219 21:13:59< Elvenisko> thanks, i found it :)
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20091219 21:15:32< Elvenisko> now looking for movement cost macro (or what it is). where can i find this? :)
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20091219 21:20:16< Elvenisko> found :)
20091219 21:20:28< Elvenisko> grep is a great sw :)
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20091219 22:54:10< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen Gambit
20091219 22:54:10< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick Gambit 1d 6h ago they left with the message: Client Quit
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20091219 23:00:39< Zarel> :/
20091219 23:00:55< Zarel> JustinOperable's portrait still looks like a man with a wig and breast implants...
20091219 23:01:13< Zarel> Well, I guess the body shape is feminine enough. But the face... meh.
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20091219 23:02:20< Sir_Konrad> lulz
20091219 23:02:36< SekoIdiootti> Zarel: I agree. :(
20091219 23:03:31< Zarel> Of course, I'm far worse at faces, so I really don't know how to fix it.
20091219 23:03:43 * shadowmaster agrees with Zarel too.
20091219 23:04:14< shadowmaster> oooh, wait, I agree with Zarel on something at last!
20091219 23:04:32< Zarel> Really? I don't remember very many situations on which we disagree.
20091219 23:04:43< Zarel> I mean, other than that I think prosilver is a good theme.
20091219 23:05:02< Zarel> And you said you "can see why one would think that", which is close enough. ;)
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 20 00:00:53 2009