--- Log opened Mon Jan 25 00:00:50 2010
--- Day changed Mon Jan 25 2010
20100125 00:00:50< zookeeper> Crab_, ok, i see
20100125 00:01:33< zookeeper> that should be changelogged if it's not already; i've used that to access some side info before, and maybe written some code like that to some unsuspecting UMC people too.
20100125 00:08:39< teaser> Crab_, I left you a message before, here it comes again, don't know if you read the logs...
20100125 00:08:40< teaser> Crab_: I see that you have been fiddling with the [unit]. FR: can you add the random-value to the gender key too, it would not brake string freeze afaik
20100125 00:08:56< AI0867> silene: looks like you removed "gold" as a discardable side attribute in r40843 along with "name"
20100125 00:08:57< Crab_> teaser: hello. yes, I've seen that message
20100125 00:09:13< Crab_> AI0867: he fixed it fixed in r40843
20100125 00:09:30< AI0867> Crab_: no, that's not what I meant
20100125 00:09:39< AI0867> he removed "name" from the attributes to descard there
20100125 00:09:44< AI0867> but also removed "gold"
20100125 00:09:47< Crab_> ah
20100125 00:09:49< AI0867> which probably should be discarded
20100125 00:10:01< AI0867> s/descard/discard
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20100125 00:13:30< Crab_> AI0867: well, 'gold' is left there
20100125 00:13:36< Crab_> AI0867: look several lines below
20100125 00:13:52< Crab_> :912
20100125 00:13:54< AI0867> right, doesn't show in the diff though
20100125 00:14:49< Crab_> teaser: can you explain more ? you said 'too' . so, where is 'random-value' already present ? give me an example
20100125 00:16:24< teaser> Crab_, never mind, I just saw that there is a random_gender key, never saw it before, my mistake
20100125 00:16:33< Crab_> ok
20100125 00:17:01< teaser> my 'too', was refereing to 'male', 'female' and 'random' too :)
20100125 00:17:07< Crab_> ah :)
20100125 00:17:11< Crab_> understood
20100125 00:17:20< teaser> thanks for your time
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20100125 00:41:35< CIA-53> fendrin * r40846 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/pathfind/ (teleport.cpp teleport.hpp): Removed obsolete code.
20100125 00:46:48< CIA-53> ai0867 * r40847 /trunk/src/ (game_events.cpp play_controller.hpp): s/skiping/skipping in play_controller::is_skiping_replay()
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20100125 01:03:36< CIA-53> fendrin * r40848 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/Makefile.am: Fixed autotools compiling the branch.
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20100125 01:30:57< AI0867> fendrin: you missed astarsearch.cpp
20100125 01:32:22< fendrin> AI0867: thanks
20100125 01:32:24< CIA-53> fendrin * r40849 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/Makefile.am: Missed astarsearch.cpp for the autotools.
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20100125 01:52:32< fendrin> AI0867: Do you know of any issues left with the pathfinding branch? If not I would like to extract a patch that can be applied to trunk.
20100125 01:58:06< AI0867> not really
20100125 01:58:18< AI0867> perhaps there should be a switch for see_all or something though
20100125 01:58:40< AI0867> right now, if there's fog, you can't see the enemy's movement through teleporters
20100125 01:58:53< AI0867> that's the right behaviour in many cases (like for silver magi)
20100125 01:59:17< AI0867> but for teleporters that are structural parts of the map, it's not
20100125 02:03:40< fendrin> hmm
20100125 02:04:31< AI0867> I could add an "always_visible" attribute
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20100125 02:10:14< fendrin> What exactly would it do?
20100125 02:10:41< AI0867> effectively set see_all for that teleport_group
20100125 02:11:55< CIA-53> ai0867 * r40850 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/data/core/macros/abilities.cfg: Nuke excess whitespace
20100125 02:12:08< fendrin> Why do you think that seeing the reachable hexes through fog is wanted in some cases and in others not?
20100125 02:12:29< AI0867> well, village ownership isn't visible through fog
20100125 02:12:44< AI0867> and you can infer that from the enemy being able to teleport through that village
20100125 02:13:03< AI0867> there's other scenarios like that that can be thought up
20100125 02:13:08< AI0867> in those cases, it's not wanted
20100125 02:13:32< AI0867> in case there's a map with two floors that are connected using [tunnel]s, accessible to everyone
20100125 02:13:56< AI0867> then they are a structural part of the map, and they should be taken into account
20100125 02:15:59< AI0867> ugh, why do I need to recompile the GUI when I change the pathfinder's headers?
20100125 02:21:53< fendrin> I understand. That feature is usefull.
20100125 02:22:55< CIA-53> ai0867 * r40851 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/pathfind/ (teleport.cpp teleport.hpp): Add the [tunnel] always_visible attribute
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20100125 02:28:52< CIA-53> ai0867 * r40852 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/data/scenario-test.cfg: Finally check in my testcases in test scenario
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20100125 02:40:34< AI0867> fendrin: there's one more thing: AI leaders previously completely ignored teleports, so they wouldn't get too far away from their troops. I've changed this, as using teleports might be needed on maps using [tunnel], but this could result in unwanted behaviour
20100125 02:45:13< fendrin> AI0867: I see. 
20100125 02:45:54< AI0867> you still have some TODOs lying around btw
20100125 02:46:03< AI0867> src/ai/game_info.hpp
20100125 02:46:37< AI0867> and one in src/game_events.cpp
20100125 02:48:36< AI0867> also, some comments to clean up in src/map.{c,h}pp
20100125 02:51:52< CIA-53> ai0867 * r40853 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/ai/default/move.cpp: spaces -> tabs
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20100125 03:27:47< CIA-53> fendrin * r40854 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/ (ai/game_info.hpp game_events.cpp map.cpp map.hpp): code cleanups.
20100125 03:29:07< fendrin> AI0867: The filter for the mage teleport feature could exclude leader's that are controlled by the ai. I think that can be coded in a wml unit filter.
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20100125 03:30:04< AI0867> how would you filter on being controlled by the AI
20100125 03:30:35< AI0867> controller=ai is part of the side, but since silene's recent changes, it is discarded as an attribute for the unit
20100125 03:33:40< fendrin> Maybe it's still possible with the help of lua.
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20100125 03:49:12< AI0867> I don't think lua can be used in filters (yet)
20100125 03:49:22 * AI0867 is off
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20100125 05:06:25< Zarel> You know, we should really have some kind of "form response" for balance changes.
20100125 05:08:06< Zarel> They come up often enough, and each time, the same thing happens.
20100125 05:08:29< Zarel> newbie: "Hey, let's make [insert change here] to mainline MP!"
20100125 05:08:37< Zarel> dev: "No, it would upset balance."
20100125 05:08:46< Zarel> newbie: "I don't think it would. C'mon, just try it."
20100125 05:09:57< Zarel> Might be easier to write a full-on form response. We could be more polite in it, too - having to answer the same question over and over otherwise makes one seem less friendly than they are.
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20100125 07:35:57< GauHelldragon> hmm
20100125 07:36:02< GauHelldragon> what's the RCA AI ? :O
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20100125 13:01:15< AI0867> GauHelldragon: Register Candidate Action AI
20100125 13:02:00< AI0867> a modular AI where you can add and remove actions, so it's easy to customize/adapt
20100125 13:03:52< GauHelldragon> oh! cool!
20100125 13:04:00< GauHelldragon> can i play with it
20100125 13:05:26< GauHelldragon> ah
20100125 13:05:32< GauHelldragon> is that what the testing_ai_default.cfg file is
20100125 13:05:51< GauHelldragon> cooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
20100125 13:20:45< zookeeper> drake burners, gliders and fighters are considerably more difficult to tell apart now if they're on water.
20100125 13:21:19< GauHelldragon> oh?
20100125 13:21:22< CIA-53> esr * r40855 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 4 dirs): 
20100125 13:21:22< CIA-53> Move the pathfinding code into a subdirectory. This is preparation
20100125 13:21:22< CIA-53> for merging fendrin's pathfinding patch. No code changes.
20100125 13:21:26< zookeeper> or at least fighters and burners, i don't have a glider on the map right now.
20100125 13:21:38< GauHelldragon> gliders are in robes
20100125 13:21:55< GauHelldragon> fighters got hand blade things
20100125 13:22:00< GauHelldragon> and uh burners
20100125 13:22:16< Blarumyrran> The hand blades are underwater though.
20100125 13:22:31< GauHelldragon> o
20100125 13:22:36< Blarumyrran> Oh, right, they fly
20100125 13:22:39< zookeeper> exactly
20100125 13:22:51< GauHelldragon> oo
20100125 13:22:55< zookeeper> only the colour makes it possible to distinquish on a glance
20100125 13:23:03< GauHelldragon> necromancers do a little summoning animation when they recruit troops :)
20100125 13:23:29< GauHelldragon> i'm sure drakes think you humans all look alike too
20100125 13:23:43< GauHelldragon> :V
20100125 13:29:56< GauHelldragon> :( ai never makes ghouls or zombies 
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20100125 15:43:23< stikonas> Ivanovic: hi, maybe you can add the new path of pathfind.cpp to CMakeLists.txt file?
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20100125 15:43:41< stikonas> after r40855 cmake can not find that file
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20100125 16:05:22< esr> stikonas: Sorry about that.  I covered the other two build systems but forgoyt about cmake.
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20100125 16:33:59< Ivanovic> hi
20100125 16:37:50< CIA-53> esr * r40856 /trunk/src/ (33 files in 7 dirs): 
20100125 16:37:50< CIA-53> Move pathfinding code into a pathfind namespace. No logic changes.
20100125 16:37:50< CIA-53> This is a step towards merging fendrin's [tunnel] code.
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20100125 17:09:29< CIA-53> esr * r40857 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20100125 17:09:29< CIA-53> Clean up some differences between fendrin's branch and trunk -
20100125 17:09:29< CIA-53> comments, namespace qualifiers, no logic changes.
20100125 17:37:27< AI0867> zookeeper: given that team_name can take multiple teams now, would you agree with deprecating NEUTRAL_SIDE?
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20100125 17:59:15< zookeeper> AI0867, it can?
20100125 18:00:23< zookeeper> well, yes, the macro isn't needed anymore if that's the case. still i think we might want to keep it in 1.8 for compatibility, since i don't think that change is very old...right?
20100125 18:00:48< CIA-53> esr * r40858 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/ (12 files in 5 dirs): 
20100125 18:00:48< CIA-53> Converge the fendrin-pathfind branch with trunk. No logic changes,
20100125 18:00:48< CIA-53> this is just to make the [tunnel] diffs smaller by doing things like
20100125 18:00:48< CIA-53> replacing postfix ++ with prefix ++.
20100125 18:05:42< esr> fendrin: ping
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20100125 19:00:35< CIA-53> esr * r40859 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 6 dirs): Yest more pathfind namespace fixups. No code changes.
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20100125 19:18:57< CIA-53> esr * r40860 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Converge fendrin_pathfind branch with trunk.
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20100125 19:27:29< Latsni> hi everyone. whats wrong with the main server? i only get an time limit error
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20100125 19:42:05< zookeeper> boucman, if you recruit a unit so that the recruiter isn't in view, the view scrolls to the recruiter (at least most of the time; looks like it doesn't always do it). that can happen if the castle is for example like a long continuous wall.
20100125 19:42:33< boucman> is that a question ?
20100125 19:43:19< zookeeper> no, i'm just describing a glitch which can be quite annoying
20100125 19:45:30< boucman> zookeeper: hmm, I don't have much time right now, afik it tries to fit the recruiter and recruited in a rectangle, not sure if it can't fit them both. It might scroll to the recruiter instead of the recruitee
20100125 19:45:51< boucman> it's probably trivial to fix, but I don't have time right now, could you ping me later/open a bug for me ?
20100125 19:46:04< zookeeper> sure, i'll ping you later
20100125 19:46:52< Crab_> fendrin: around ?
20100125 19:54:41-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100125 19:54:55< mordante> servus
20100125 19:56:51< CIA-53> mordante * r40861 /trunk/src/CMakeLists.txt: Fix building with cmake after r40855.
20100125 19:57:54< mordante> esr, next time please also think about the cmake file^
20100125 20:01:56< esr> mordante: Yes, I slipped up on that one.
20100125 20:02:17 * esr thinks we have too many build systems
20100125 20:06:06< mordante> thanks
20100125 20:06:30 * mordante doesn't enter that discussion ;-)
20100125 20:07:22 * elias laughs at wesnoth devs... instead of just maintaining autotools they now have to maintain 2 other systems
20100125 20:07:29< elias> :)
20100125 20:07:40< Crab_> elias: don't forget MSVC
20100125 20:09:16< Crab_> ой ;) наведи мышкой на строку, увидишь в чем ошибка
20100125 20:09:23< Crab_> там где крестик и лампочка
20100125 20:09:30< Crab_> крестик означает "есть проблемы"
20100125 20:09:35< Crab_> лампочка "есть варианты решения"
20100125 20:09:59< Crab_> смотри - файл говорит "я в пакете questions"
20100125 20:10:09< Crab_> но он (смотри слева) в пустом пакете
20100125 20:10:17< mordante> stikonas, Ivanovic I already fixed the cmake building
20100125 20:10:18< Crab_> sorry :)
20100125 20:10:22< Crab_> wrong window :)
20100125 20:10:37< boucman> zookeeper: ok, I just looked, and i'm a bit suprised, it should work correctly according to code
20100125 20:10:44< boucman> do you have a test case I could use ?
20100125 20:11:39< mordante> elias, I don't want to restart the discussion, don't want to know how many more build systems can be added ;-)
20100125 20:11:46< zookeeper> boucman, yeah, the finale of the elvish dynasty campaign
20100125 20:12:02< boucman> could you post a savegame for me somewhere ?
20100125 20:12:09< elias> mordante: hehe
20100125 20:12:16< loonycyborg> mordante: Perhaps boost.build and waf :P
20100125 20:12:56< zookeeper> boucman, faster if you just edit some map so it has a really long line of castle
20100125 20:13:12< mordante> let's rename Battle for Wesnoth to Battle of the Build Systems :-P
20100125 20:15:01< boucman> true, done
20100125 20:15:39< boucman> zookeeper: works for me...
20100125 20:16:10< zookeeper> boucman, as i said, it didn't happen every time for me, so maybe try several times from different places
20100125 20:16:20< boucman> working on it
20100125 20:17:24< zookeeper> (the unit in question also doesn't have a defined recruiting anim)
20100125 20:17:24< mordante> Ivanovic, the lobby seems fast enough :-) https://gna.org/bugs/?14740#comment12
20100125 20:18:01< Ivanovic> mordante: without users this is *really* hard to say
20100125 20:18:03< Ivanovic> ;)
20100125 20:19:02< mordante> just let me be happy for a few minutes ;-)
20100125 20:19:11< Ivanovic> nah
20100125 20:19:17< Ivanovic> you are too healthy for being happy atm
20100125 20:19:19< Ivanovic> ;)
20100125 20:19:58< mordante> *grumble*
20100125 20:20:22< boucman> zookeeper: no, i really can't reproduce... was your bug with trunk ?
20100125 20:21:08< zookeeper> boucman, yeah, with yesterday's win build.
20100125 20:21:12 * zookeeper shrugs
20100125 20:21:14< boucman> hmm
20100125 20:21:33< boucman> zookeeper: well, if you had a save, it would be really helpfull
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20100125 20:22:49< zookeeper> boucman, ok, here it is: http://filebin.ca/yedahn/ElDy-Finale_Turn_7.gz
20100125 20:23:29< boucman> thx
20100125 20:24:15< boucman> zookeeper: unknown unit type... what addon do I need to download ?
20100125 20:26:40< zookeeper> boucman, elvish dynasty
20100125 20:26:46< boucman> k, thx
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20100125 20:27:45< YogiHH> hello
20100125 20:29:21< mordante> HI YogiHH 
20100125 20:30:49< boucman> zookeeper: still works... is there a particular place to recruit ? was it a recruit or a recall? was it systematic or random ?
20100125 20:32:27< zookeeper> no particular place, just somewhere far enough that you can't see your leader. recruits, and happens most of the time but not always.
20100125 20:32:38< boucman> k, will try some more
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20100125 20:35:09< boucman> zookeeper: i really can't see it...
20100125 20:38:09< zookeeper> boucman, do you have "enable scroll tracking of unit actions" toggled on?
20100125 20:38:20< boucman> I think I do, will check
20100125 20:38:47< boucman> yes I do
20100125 20:38:54< zookeeper> odd. i have it on too.
20100125 20:39:22< zookeeper> oh well, don't worry about it then.
20100125 20:40:12< boucman> well, if you manage to reproduce, don't hesitate to call...
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--- Log opened Mon Jan 25 22:11:51 2010
20100125 22:12:00-!- lobby [n=wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100125 22:12:00-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: string/feature freeze active! | 62 bugs, 243 feature requests, 7 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100125 22:12:00-!- Topic set by wesbot [] [Wed Jan 20 18:21:16 2010]
20100125 22:12:00[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20100125 22:12:00[ _jbx_          ] [ esr      ] [ Kleptomane  ] [ Smar           ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ AI0867         ] [ ettin    ] [ knotwork_   ] [ SonIcco        ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ AnMaster       ] [ fendrin  ] [ lobby       ] [ stikonas       ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ Appleman1234   ] [ fkhodkov ] [ loonybot    ] [ thespaceinvader] 
20100125 22:12:00[ boucman        ] [ fmunoz   ] [ loonycyborg ] [ Tigge_         ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ Chusslove      ] [ freim    ] [ lukjad007   ] [ tsr_           ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ CIA-53         ] [ grzywacz ] [ mordante    ] [ Vetinari       ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ Crab_          ] [ happygrue] [ noy         ] [ wesbot         ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ crimson_penguin] [ Ingmar   ] [ Rhonda      ] [ yann           ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ deekay         ] [ isaac    ] [ rosso_      ] [ Zarel          ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ elias          ] [ Ivanovic ] [ shadowmaster] [ Zarel|         ] 
20100125 22:12:00[ erl            ] [ Ken_Oh   ] [ shikadibot  ] [ zookeeper      ] 
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20100125 22:12:10-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20100125 22:21:28< shadowmaster> boucman: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=405717#p405717
20100125 22:21:36< shadowmaster> you meant BroodKiller rather than Blueblaze?
20100125 22:22:03< mordante> I'm off night
20100125 22:23:02-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20100125 22:27:40< Crab_> zookeeper: what's your opinion on http://gna.org/bugs/?15113 and http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28616 ?
20100125 22:29:23< Crab_> zookeeper:  in short, "what should be the default behavior of [unit]x,y=1,1[/unit] when 1,1 is occupied by other unit" ?
20100125 22:31:45< zookeeper> Crab_, i'd say the default should be not overwrite but to put on nearest vacant
20100125 22:32:17< zookeeper> that's the "safe" default...if someone wants to potentially erase existing units then they ought to specify it
20100125 22:32:24< Crab_> yes, that's my opinion, too..
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20100125 22:33:28< Crab_> but what about all that 'spawn unit in death event'. how hard it would be to change these ?
20100125 22:33:43< Crab_> right now, unit is alive until the end of    name=die event
20100125 22:33:59< Crab_> (that's what bug #15133 was originally about)
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20100125 22:37:03< shadowmaster> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=405429#p405429
20100125 22:37:15< shadowmaster> Probable spambot, someone could watch it?
20100125 22:37:29< Crab_> shadowmaster: was mentioned before, a few days before
20100125 22:37:35< CIA-53> esr * r40862 /branches/fendrin_pathfind/src/ (CMakeLists.txt actions.cpp gamestatus.cpp scripting/lua.cpp): More merges from trunk.
20100125 22:37:52< shadowmaster> Crab_: how?
20100125 22:38:02< shadowmaster> he, she or it joined *yesterday*
20100125 22:38:15< Crab_> shadowmaster: then, few=1 :)
20100125 22:40:00< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: what is the purpose of allowing users to use files.wesnoth.org to download wesnoth noawadays?
20100125 22:40:09< shadowmaster> SF.net's servers seem to be pretty reliable for the FRS.
20100125 22:40:23< Crab_> shadowmaster: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m3390f12c
20100125 22:42:00< shadowmaster> the first poster looks legitimate to me, the second doesn't.
20100125 22:42:01-!- elias [n=elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit ["Leaving"]
20100125 22:42:53< shadowmaster> and why don't we have MD5 sums for the binary distributions?
20100125 22:48:27< boucman> shadowmaster: yes, thx
20100125 22:50:51< Crab_> shadowmaster: and, what do you think about "what should be the default behavior of [unit]x,y=1,1[/unit] when 1,1 is occupied by other unit" ? should it, by default, overwrite or find nearby vacant tile ? ( https://gna.org/bugs/?15113 ). 
20100125 22:51:11< shadowmaster> find nearby vacant tile
20100125 22:51:20< Crab_> ok, thanks
20100125 22:51:54< shadowmaster> that has been the behavior since as far as I can recall (1.0)
20100125 22:51:58< shadowmaster> no pun intended.
20100125 22:53:10< Crab_> hmm... then why silene says 'designers do use the [unit] tag to overwrite units in events without killing them first (and nothing in the documentation says they shouldn't). ' ? am I missing something ?
20100125 22:53:51< shadowmaster> ?!?
20100125 22:54:02< shadowmaster> I have no idea what he's talking about.
20100125 22:54:14< Crab_> #7 in https://gna.org/bugs/?15113
20100125 22:54:50 * shadowmaster scratches head.
20100125 22:55:09< shadowmaster> I'd tell him "[citation needed]"
20100125 22:55:31< Crab_> (btw, 'find nearby vacant tile' is current behavior, too. and silene asks it to be reverted)
20100125 22:55:31< shadowmaster> let me quickly test in 1.6
20100125 22:55:33< Crab_> ok
20100125 22:55:45< shadowmaster> let me quickly test in 1.0
20100125 22:56:29< boucman> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=405736#p405736 this guy is amazing
20100125 22:56:41< boucman> anybody good at writing terrain code ?
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20100125 22:58:13< shadowmaster> Crab_: confirmed that "find nearby vacant tile" was the normal behavior in 1.0 already with a [event]name=start in the test scenario spawning an Orcish Warrior and an Elvish Shaman at 10,10
20100125 22:58:22< Crab_> ok, thanks
20100125 22:58:40< shadowmaster> the shaman was spawned second and at 10,9
20100125 22:58:46< Crab_> I'll check the 'die' event, too. maybe something has changed wrt this event only
20100125 22:59:53< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: in general sf.net is really reliable
20100125 23:00:11< shadowmaster> same behavior in 1.6's test scenario with the same sequence but in a prestart event
20100125 23:00:14< Ivanovic> the main reason is to have another reliable source at the begining shortly after the release
20100125 23:00:38< Ivanovic> when packagers might have probs with sf.net and the files not being propagated yet
20100125 23:02:50< boucman> i think it was at FOSDEM two years ago that we met a guy from SF that explained that we were one of their biggest bandwith users :)
20100125 23:04:56< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: but why have them *after* the announcement is made?
20100125 23:05:28< shadowmaster> also, did you read my question regarding MD5 sums?
20100125 23:05:44< Crab_> shadowmaster: heh, the 'Rise, rise from the ground!" (c) Mal Keshar' macro in IftU includes a [kill] and, therefore, doesn't trigger the  'the zombie won't appear in the right place' behavior :))
20100125 23:07:15< shadowmaster> I have always known that the die primary unit isn't fully dead during the die event
20100125 23:07:50< shadowmaster> although I'm not quite sure when I first exprimented with that. It could have been with 1.0 or 1.1.x
20100125 23:08:13< Crab_> what year that was ?
20100125 23:08:31< shadowmaster> around 2005.
20100125 23:08:43< shadowmaster> between the end of 2005 and the middle of 2006.
20100125 23:13:18< Ivanovic> which question regarding md5sums?
20100125 23:13:24< Ivanovic> the file for the tarball is there...
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20100125 23:23:09< fendrin> Crab_. esr: pong
20100125 23:23:15< Crab_> fendrin: hi
20100125 23:24:46< fendrin> Crab_: You asked for me ~4 hours ago?
20100125 23:24:52< Crab_> yes
20100125 23:26:16< Crab_> fendrin: i saw that you were discussing some ai-related filter's in pathfinding.. e.g. something like excluding leader from teleporting
20100125 23:27:58< Crab_> fendrin: I wanted to ask about not doing anything about it at the pathfinder level.
20100125 23:28:06< fendrin> Crab_: Right, the new tunnel feature can be used to connect 2 isolated parts of the map. Several floors of the same building for example. This floors are connected by stairs, which are realized by the tunnel feature. The ai ignores teleport for leaders because it can lead to an early end of the side that brings his leader abroad the other units.
20100125 23:29:27 * _jbx_ perks up 
20100125 23:29:32< _jbx_> new tunnel feature?
20100125 23:29:39< _jbx_> I was just making a map with 2 levels
20100125 23:30:00< Crab_> fendrin: and yes, the problem is there. but it should be fixed by ai itself doing 'smarter' moves, not by hacking things up in pathfinding :)
20100125 23:30:05< _jbx_> is there a post with some details about this?
20100125 23:30:06< fendrin> _jbx_: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14749
20100125 23:30:59< Crab_> fendrin: I expect that you're going to use tunnels in one of the maps for the new campaign ?
20100125 23:30:59< _jbx_> cool
20100125 23:32:35< fendrin> Crab_: right scenario 2
20100125 23:33:02< Crab_> fendrin: then show me the prototype when it'll be ready and i'll see if there any suicidal moves by leaders
20100125 23:33:45< fendrin> Crab_: The scenario needs another extra feature: An ai that is able to play capture the flag. 
20100125 23:34:28< Crab_> will be a fun thing to try
20100125 23:34:51< Crab_> and I need to write some fai,to ensure that it works :)
20100125 23:35:19< fendrin> _jbx_: The [tunnel] feature is not part of the 1.7 or 1.8 code base. It will be released at 1.9.x. If you want to try it out you need to fetch a special branch.
20100125 23:35:51< _jbx_> I see.  
20100125 23:36:26< _jbx_> well, i'll use the old fashioned method of teleporters still, as I have no AI worries to deal with :)
20100125 23:36:56< fendrin> Crab_: The capture the flag wml for the game mechanics is no problem. It's very similar to what I did in LoW scenario 5 saurian treasury. But I have no idea how to make the ai to go for the flag and bring it home or howto rescue a stolen one.
20100125 23:36:58< _jbx_> it's a very neat idea though
20100125 23:37:43< fendrin> _jbx_: I like the idea that Jetrel proposed in the first post of the topic.
20100125 23:37:53< _jbx_> the one from 3 years ago?  lol
20100125 23:38:05< Crab_> fendrin: there are two approaches that can be taken - either push that info to map, or push it to ai via goal markers
20100125 23:38:07< fendrin> _jbx_: Right, that one.
20100125 23:38:21< _jbx_> It could be great to get a "phase" ability working.  
20100125 23:38:34< _jbx_> teleporting within a set movement limit
20100125 23:38:42< _jbx_> to any terrain type
20100125 23:38:55< fendrin> _jbx_: Please explain in detail how this would work.
20100125 23:38:55< _jbx_> that is how i read the idea
20100125 23:39:18< _jbx_> it would be clunky, as in a right click menu to move, then 2nd click to confirm move
20100125 23:39:30< fendrin> Crab_: What do you mean by push that info to map?
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20100125 23:39:36< _jbx_> so you could "phase" behind a wall of enemies for example
20100125 23:39:52< _jbx_> but never more than your original Movement points
20100125 23:40:02< Crab_> fendrin: ai has access to the game map, so if we modify the map, the ai will be able to see the changes
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20100125 23:40:56< fendrin> _jbx_: That should be doable with the new [tunnel] feature but it's very similar to skirmishing, isn't it?
20100125 23:41:36< _jbx_> fendrin: yes, very similar, except you wouldn't need an open ZoC hex...they could all be filled.  Or you could move over deep water using it
20100125 23:41:49< _jbx_> etc.
20100125 23:41:58< _jbx_> it will cause problems of course with cave walls
20100125 23:41:59< boucman> night all
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20100125 23:42:39< fendrin> _jbx_: Why will it cause problems with cave walls?
20100125 23:43:23< fendrin> Crab_: Which information do you suggest to story on the map=
20100125 23:43:30< fendrin> s/=/?
20100125 23:43:33< _jbx_> because cave walls are typically designed to force players to move along a certain path.  if you "phased" out of the cave it could quickly become unbalancing to map makers
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20100125 23:44:04< Crab_> fendrin: depends on how it's done in wml... basically, it is an 'item', yes ?
20100125 23:44:06< _jbx_> fendrin: is this something you are working on?
20100125 23:44:24< _jbx_> or just getting data for the tunnel event?
20100125 23:44:34< Crab_> fendrin: we can code 'item' awareness for ai for 1.9 (e.g. "which items are on map?", "which items are on units?", etc)
20100125 23:44:53< fendrin> _jbx_: What do you mean by "this"?
20100125 23:44:54< Crab_> fendrin: or, we can go another way and add a new type of 'goal', a 'marker' goal, and move those from wml.
20100125 23:45:16< _jbx_> jetryl's new (old) teleport concept
20100125 23:46:39< fendrin> _jbx_: The new [tunnel] tag covers both. Coding jetryl's concept (including to code the mage teleport inside [tunnel] and removing the c++ code for it) and the tunnels that connect map floors.
20100125 23:47:08< fendrin> Crab_: I have used the unit's role feature for the gold carrier in low 5.
20100125 23:47:10< _jbx_> roger
20100125 23:47:32< Crab_> fendrin: that was a hack :)
20100125 23:47:33< fendrin> _jbx_: The end of the thread I pointed you to is more recent.
20100125 23:47:58< Crab_> fendrin: basically, this is a design choice - either we allow the ai to 'see' something for itself, or we supply 'markers' to it.
20100125 23:48:21< Crab_> fendrin: and, if we supply, 'markers', the marker goal might accept a SUF, yes.
20100125 23:48:29< Crab_> and 'role' can be used there, yes
20100125 23:48:44< _jbx_> fendrin yes, it looks easy to use and a good idea, imo
20100125 23:48:47< fendrin> Crab_: Hmmm, maybe a cool extension to the ai.
20100125 23:52:47< fendrin> Crab_: I am going to code the wml for the VoW scenario 2 to make it work with human players as a first step.
20100125 23:52:59< Crab_> ok
20100125 23:53:07< Crab_> ping me when it'll be done
20100125 23:53:25< fendrin> Crab_: I need to talk to esr first.
20100125 23:53:33< Crab_> if it happens before 1.8 is released, it'll improve the state of fai for 1.8, as well :)
20100125 23:54:07< fendrin> Crab_: I guess Ivanovic won't allow the [tunnel] feature to go in 1.8.
20100125 23:54:43< Crab_> fendrin: yes. but I was referring to the fact that during writing fai I see the shortcomings of the language better :)
20100125 23:55:02< Crab_> fendrin: so, I'm able to backport generic fai useability changes 
20100125 23:55:10< Crab_> like convenience functions, etc
20100125 23:56:13< fendrin> Crab_: esr started to port changes to trunk from the point on I forked the pathfinding path into it. I can't continue coding scenario2 until the part of code that changed the [side] and [unit] behaviour you introduced shortly.
20100125 23:58:25< Crab_> ok. porting those [unit] changes shouldn't be that hard, they affect only a few files
20100125 23:58:48< Crab_> I can do it too, if there'll be any problems.
--- Log closed Tue Jan 26 00:00:01 2010