--- Log opened Thu Jan 28 00:00:00 2010
20100128 00:00:26< GauHelldragon> omg
20100128 00:00:29< GauHelldragon> zombie bat
20100128 00:01:31< Jozrael> win
20100128 00:02:00< GauHelldragon> oh skeleton archers have 2 deaths
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20100128 10:11:58< GauHelldragon> what is the difference between "show enemy moves" and "show best possible enemy moves"
20100128 10:15:17< fendrin> GauHelldragon: The last one doesn't consider zoc.
20100128 10:15:29< GauHelldragon> oh ok thanks
20100128 10:15:57< GauHelldragon> what units are best in frozen terrain
20100128 10:16:46< GauHelldragon> it looks like everyone is pretty terrible in it
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20100128 10:16:55< Sacho> flying
20100128 10:18:00< GauHelldragon> so bats an griffons
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20100128 10:50:03< Ivanovic> moin
20100128 10:52:16< Sacho> GauHelldragon: and drakes, and sylphs, and probably other units that I can't think of currently :)
20100128 10:52:47< GauHelldragon> only the sky drakes
20100128 10:53:00< GauHelldragon> and their dodge isn't really that great anywhere
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20100128 10:53:36< GauHelldragon> yeah the rest of the drakes can fly but they don't fight on the wing
20100128 11:03:15< Ivanovic> GauHelldragon: the difference is that drakes *hit* like hell and move fast on ice
20100128 11:03:36< Ivanovic> that is: if your enemy just has 20% defense, hey, two drakes basically kill everything!
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20100128 13:35:50< GauHelldragon> uagh
20100128 13:36:11< GauHelldragon> that is a bullshit campaign scenario
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20100128 13:36:44< GauHelldragon> the uh novice one 
20100128 13:36:50< GauHelldragon> where you go to fight a lich
20100128 13:37:02< GauHelldragon> and you have a choice between killing the bandits or letting em join you
20100128 13:37:12< GauHelldragon> the mission after that one if you let em join
20100128 13:41:52< GauHelldragon> undead spawnin constantly level 2 units right where you start
20100128 13:42:14< GauHelldragon> and elves ambushing you every 2 steps you take
20100128 13:43:06< zookeeper> except that the elves don't ambush you on the road.
20100128 13:44:05< GauHelldragon> yes they do
20100128 13:44:11< Sacho> the wiki has strategies to beat the campaigns
20100128 13:44:12< GauHelldragon> what are you kidding
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20100128 13:44:49< GauHelldragon> it doesn't matter at all if you stay on the road, they have tons of units next to the road as well
20100128 13:45:10< GauHelldragon> i'm only bringing it up cuz it's supposed to be a novice campaign
20100128 13:45:23< zookeeper> really?
20100128 13:45:37< GauHelldragon> yeah
20100128 13:45:44< zookeeper> that's funny. what version you got?
20100128 13:45:52< GauHelldragon> oh uh hm
20100128 13:45:58< GauHelldragon> i'm using both the stable and the beta
20100128 13:46:04< GauHelldragon> i actually forgot which one i was playing
20100128 13:46:14< GauHelldragon> D:
20100128 13:46:19< zookeeper> ok, it should actually work the same way in both
20100128 13:46:23< zookeeper> gimme a minute
20100128 13:47:20< zookeeper> (or you could http://filebin.ca your savefile to save me some time)
20100128 13:48:02< GauHelldragon> oh uh ok yeah sure one sec
20100128 13:48:21< zookeeper> ok, nevermind, i found it already
20100128 13:49:11< GauHelldragon> i think it's uh
20100128 13:49:17< GauHelldragon> TSG-The_Long_March
20100128 13:49:41< zookeeper> heh. i forgot that i designed it to work like that.
20100128 13:50:27< GauHelldragon> i'm sure it's not impossible, it's just a little brutal for a novice campaign
20100128 13:50:41< zookeeper> you're playing on what difficulty level?
20100128 13:50:46< GauHelldragon> the easiest
20100128 13:51:00< zookeeper> oh, ok. i guess there should be a bit fewer of the ambushing elves on the easier levels
20100128 13:51:04< zookeeper> i'll change it..
20100128 13:51:32< GauHelldragon> the undead spawn a lot of shadows and vampire bats
20100128 13:51:44< GauHelldragon> so they have no problem catching you no matter how fast you try and go through it
20100128 13:52:34< GauHelldragon> since two of your mandatory npcs are a bit slow
20100128 13:52:56< GauHelldragon> .. hrm
20100128 13:53:07< GauHelldragon> do you actually have to get your leader to the end to win
20100128 13:53:26< zookeeper> yes
20100128 13:53:31< GauHelldragon> ah ok nm
20100128 13:55:38< Sacho> Seems like I never sided with the bandits when playing that (:
20100128 13:55:58< zookeeper> ok, while i'm at it i'll also limit the number of shadows and other quickies that can get spawned
20100128 13:56:06< zookeeper> shouldn't take all too long..
20100128 13:56:26< GauHelldragon> :O
20100128 13:56:39< GauHelldragon> thanks :O
20100128 13:59:23< Sacho> I gotta play through the campaigns again
20100128 13:59:43< zookeeper> meh, on top of that i'll remove shadows entirely, since i guess it's a bit unfair due to the nightstalk
20100128 14:00:13< GauHelldragon> heh
20100128 14:00:20< GauHelldragon> yea they just kind of pop out of nowhere
20100128 14:00:20< zookeeper> ah. i'll replace them with dread bats, since those are fun.
20100128 14:11:41< zookeeper> all done, testing...
20100128 14:11:55< zookeeper> so, are you using stable or the beta?
20100128 14:12:21< GauHelldragon> oh i was using the beta it seems
20100128 14:12:41< zookeeper> good, since i'll only be fixing the beta, not the old stable
20100128 14:13:00< GauHelldragon> sounds reasonable
20100128 14:17:48< GauHelldragon> hu
20100128 14:18:02< GauHelldragon> does the game have a sfx for when night time comes up?
20100128 14:18:26< zookeeper> yes?
20100128 14:18:48< zookeeper> at least if you mean the owl and crickets...maybe it was on dusk
20100128 14:19:26< GauHelldragon> oh ok
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20100128 14:21:51< GauHelldragon> ah yes there it is
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20100128 14:24:50< GauHelldragon> hmm
20100128 14:25:21< GauHelldragon> it kind of looks like the random map generator is placing castles in places where a bridge should be
20100128 14:25:29< GauHelldragon> at places where the bridge would turn
20100128 14:25:37< zookeeper> this will take a bit longer, there's some funky bug i need to track down first
20100128 14:26:11< GauHelldragon> o
20100128 14:26:34< GauHelldragon> good hunting :)
20100128 14:39:56< zookeeper> got it.
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20100128 14:52:02< zookeeper> ok, committed the tweaks now
20100128 14:52:45< zookeeper> you can get the current scenario file from http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/06b_The_Long_March.cfg?rev=40926
20100128 14:53:09< zookeeper> (overwrite your scenario file with that one and then restart from the beginning-of-scenario save)
20100128 14:58:22< Ken_Oh> zookeeper: so, is there a WML reference explanation of the tags like [+tag] [/tag] and [/tag] [+tag]  somewhere? that's the one thing in WML that I never understood.
20100128 14:59:27< Ken_Oh> from your post in Quetzalcoatl's thread, it looks like [+regenerate] [/regenerate] is used to append an existing [regenrate] tag
20100128 15:01:27< fendrin> Ken_Oh: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SyntaxWML
20100128 15:01:55< zookeeper> Ken_Oh, yeah, [+regenerate] appends the contents to the previous [regenerate] tag
20100128 15:02:08< zookeeper> but i'm not sure if it works on different nesting levels or not
20100128 15:02:27< zookeeper> so i pretty much only use it when i want to add something to what some macro call does
20100128 15:03:11< zookeeper> if you'd want to use the feature to do something more complex than in my post, i'd suggest you're doing it wrong ;)
20100128 15:03:45< Ken_Oh> Right, thanks, but what am I doing here? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_Abilities#Mind_Flay
20100128 15:04:00< Ken_Oh> using [/abilities] [+abilities] (not the other way around)
20100128 15:04:09< Ken_Oh> wait not
20100128 15:04:10< Ken_Oh> no
20100128 15:04:21< Ken_Oh> sorry, this http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_Abilities#Initiative
20100128 15:04:34< Ken_Oh> I got told to use that syntax, but I never understood it
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20100128 15:05:35< Sacho> wow, wml is nice.
20100128 15:10:31< zookeeper> Ken_Oh, inside what tag is that supposed to be used? [abilities] of course, so you're closing that, putting the [event] in [unit_type] and then re-opening [abilities] again so any following ability macro calls put the stuff inside it.
20100128 15:11:55< Ken_Oh> I don't know, and it never made sense to me. Here's where I got it from: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=167242#p167242
20100128 15:12:15< Ken_Oh> Now, I realize turin might not have known what he was talking about. The weird thing is that it works.
20100128 15:12:43< GauHelldragon> oh cool 
20100128 15:12:55< zookeeper> Ken_Oh, wait, what, it still doesn't make sense to you?
20100128 15:13:28< Ken_Oh> OK, reading what you read, I think I get it now.
20100128 15:14:34< zookeeper> yeah, just mentally paste the macro contents in place of the macro call, and it should be pretty clear how it works
20100128 15:14:36< Ken_Oh> Ah, so [/abilities] and [+abilities] aren't paired. they're paired with unseen tags.
20100128 15:14:45< zookeeper> yes
20100128 15:14:56< Ken_Oh> thanks. i wasn't putting in context. 
20100128 15:15:05< Ken_Oh> common error of mine. ;)
20100128 15:15:31< Ken_Oh> plus, i'm at the point where i'm starting to forget WML that i used to know...
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20100128 15:31:53< Blarumyrran> zookeeper, I for one think bats are even more evil than Shadows
20100128 15:32:13< Blarumyrran> They move faster than anything, and they dont give you 16xp that might level-heal your guys
20100128 15:34:20< zookeeper> Blarumyrran, true, but i think that's balanced out by the fact that now only 1 bat per turn may be spawned (the worst-case scenario)
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20100128 15:35:55< Sacho> they do less damage than shadows :P
20100128 15:38:57< Blarumyrran> ok
20100128 15:39:03< Blarumyrran> Sacho, AI usually targets low-health units, so if you have low-health units whom you can't zoc-cover, the damage does not matter much
20100128 15:39:42< Sacho> You'd need something to create those low-health units
20100128 15:40:02< Blarumyrran> Yeah, like... other enemies?
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20100128 15:40:26< Blarumyrran> I haven't actually played that campaign but I'm pretty sure there are some
20100128 15:43:50< Sacho> Shadow attacking you, especially during the night, is likely to threaten your healthy units, nevermind the wounded ones (:
20100128 15:44:35< Blarumyrran> It will still probably attack wounded ones
20100128 15:46:04< Sacho> If you have those.
20100128 15:46:13< Sacho> But if you've covered them, it'd just butcher the healthy ones.
20100128 15:46:36< Sacho> Especially if you've stretched your battle line to provide more zoc cover.
20100128 15:47:25< Blarumyrran> At least when I play, I try to assign damage equally over all my units so that as few as possible would die, which means I'll have either almost no wounded units, or a big group of wounded units whom I cant zoc-cover
20100128 15:48:12< Blarumyrran> And by some stage in any reasonably hard scenario, I'll have the latter
20100128 15:48:58< Sacho> This is unlikely to happen if you have healers
20100128 15:49:11< Sacho> don't have*
20100128 15:50:00< Sacho> if you rotate too many wounded units away to defense, your battle line will get overwhelmed and you'll straight out suffer casualties
20100128 15:52:17< Blarumyrran> I don't follow
20100128 15:52:31< Blarumyrran> What is unlikely to happen
20100128 15:52:50< Sacho> If you don't have healers, it's unlikely that you would maintain your situation
20100128 15:53:00< Sacho> "either almost no wounded units, or a big group of woundeds you can't cover"
20100128 15:53:16< Blarumyrran> You would rather kill your units off one by one?
20100128 15:53:21< Sacho> yup
20100128 15:53:35< Sacho> Especially if they're new recruits
20100128 15:53:44< Sacho> it's their job to just be a meatshield :P
20100128 15:53:45< Blarumyrran> Besides, there are probably some villages
20100128 15:54:00< Sacho> For most campaigns, villages are impractical as far as healing goes.
20100128 15:54:09< Blarumyrran> Wat
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20100128 17:18:12< Sacho> There was an era with completely custom races, like vampires, celestials, and a race made up of tiny devils and such...does anyone happen to know its name?
20100128 17:19:23< zookeeper> era of myths probably
20100128 17:20:03< Sacho> exactly,t hanks :)
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20100128 18:03:44< zookeeper> GauHelldragon, so, does it look beatable now?
20100128 18:03:52< GauHelldragon> yeah i got through it
20100128 18:04:09< zookeeper> all righty then
20100128 18:04:46< GauHelldragon> lol
20100128 18:04:47< GauHelldragon> the next one
20100128 18:05:16< zookeeper> at least you can't lose there
20100128 18:05:35< zookeeper> correction: at least you can't fail to make it through it
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20100128 18:09:16< GauHelldragon> what happens if you kill the liches
20100128 18:10:15< zookeeper> well, you can't kill the main lich
20100128 18:10:35< GauHelldragon> why not :(
20100128 18:10:40< GauHelldragon> he doesn't look so tough!
20100128 18:11:07< zookeeper> well, you can try
20100128 18:11:17< zookeeper> i can guarantee that you won't succeed, though ;)
20100128 18:25:11< Skystriker> Pebbles in the Floooood
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20100128 18:43:14< GauHelldragon> ... hu
20100128 18:43:27< GauHelldragon> well it's down to Sir Gerrick now
20100128 18:43:31< GauHelldragon> he's sitting on the last village
20100128 18:43:39< GauHelldragon> bone shooters surrounding him
20100128 18:43:51< GauHelldragon> and it's the dead of night
20100128 18:43:53< GauHelldragon> and
20100128 18:43:58< GauHelldragon> they aren't shooting
20100128 18:44:06< GauHelldragon> ... ???!
20100128 18:44:34< GauHelldragon> ah i think i know why
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20100128 18:44:58< GauHelldragon> cuz he is very close to leveling
20100128 18:45:05< GauHelldragon> if they attack him, he'll level up
20100128 18:45:12< GauHelldragon> aw one of em did
20100128 18:46:21< GauHelldragon> 19 turns :<
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20100128 21:03:09< GauHelldragon> why are benchmark maps included 
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20100128 21:14:35< zenhoobbit> hello
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20100128 22:38:38< GauHelldragon> hu
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20100128 22:41:00< GauHelldragon> a single tile of water surrounded by flat grass looks like a semicircle
20100128 22:41:13< GauHelldragon> same with a single tile of flat grass surrounded by snow
20100128 22:41:37< GauHelldragon> D:
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20100128 22:42:20< Skystriker> Sometimes, yea
20100128 22:42:26< Skystriker> You making a map?
20100128 22:42:30< GauHelldragon> no i just noticed it
20100128 22:43:28< GauHelldragon> on a random map 
20100128 22:46:39< Skystriker> I see
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20100128 23:04:56< GauHelldragon> zombie batssssssss
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20100128 23:05:46< GauHelldragon> do zombie bats still fly
20100128 23:06:04< GauHelldragon> they look like they are flying but 
20100128 23:07:23< shadowmaster> they fly.
20100128 23:10:23< GauHelldragon> even though they are 'walking corpse' ?
20100128 23:10:45< shadowmaster> yes.
20100128 23:11:15< GauHelldragon> ah cool
20100128 23:11:43< GauHelldragon> i want to make a mod that gives every unit plague on all their attacks :)
20100128 23:13:24< GauHelldragon> do walking corpses keep their old dodge as well?
20100128 23:17:32< Skystriker> WC have slightly modified stats from the base, depending on the old one
20100128 23:18:13< shadowmaster> look at their code if you are curious
20100128 23:22:27< GauHelldragon> you donno where that is do you D: ?
20100128 23:23:09< GauHelldragon> macros/abilities.cfg ?
20100128 23:23:53< Skystriker> <_<
20100128 23:23:59< Skystriker> If you're talking about unit stats
20100128 23:24:05< Skystriker> I'd check in the unit folder ;p
20100128 23:27:35< GauHelldragon> he he
20100128 23:27:41< GauHelldragon> zombie bats still go "uuuuagghh"
20100128 23:28:14< Skystriker> lol
20100128 23:28:19< Skystriker> Instead of cheep cheep ^^
20100128 23:34:54< GauHelldragon> are defenses based off of race?
20100128 23:35:08< GauHelldragon> dodge rates i mean
20100128 23:36:28< Skystriker> They are based off of movetype
20100128 23:36:59< Skystriker> Like footpads share elusivefoot with fencers
20100128 23:37:06< Sacho> but differ for each unit
20100128 23:37:06< GauHelldragon> o
20100128 23:37:08< Skystriker> (And also similar resistances)
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20100128 23:37:38< Skystriker> Well, by and large movetype determines your defense
20100128 23:37:43< Skystriker> But I guess there are exceptios
20100128 23:37:48< shadowmaster> GauHelldragon: I was talking about the Walking Corpse code itself
20100128 23:37:57< Skystriker> Like AFAIK elvish fighters/archers have the same movetype, but different dodge in forest
20100128 23:38:05< GauHelldragon> oh?
20100128 23:38:11< GauHelldragon> i thought they both have 70%
20100128 23:38:15< shadowmaster> data/core/units/undead/Corpse_Walking.cfg
20100128 23:38:19< Sacho> fighters have 60%
20100128 23:38:24< GauHelldragon> shadowm_laptop yeah that's what im lookin at
20100128 23:38:40< GauHelldragon> i was just wondering how it determined the dodge rates
20100128 23:40:17< shadowmaster> the [defense]t tags in the individual variation's code override the movetype's defense rates
20100128 23:40:20< GauHelldragon> yeah
20100128 23:40:28< GauHelldragon> i figured as much
20100128 23:40:49< GauHelldragon> anyway that's pretty neat :)
20100128 23:41:17< GauHelldragon> oh
20100128 23:41:19< GauHelldragon> you're right
20100128 23:41:23< GauHelldragon> about the fighters
20100128 23:41:39< GauHelldragon> never noticed that
20100128 23:41:51< GauHelldragon> i never use fighters anyway :>
20100128 23:42:05< Sacho> elvish fighters?
20100128 23:42:13< GauHelldragon> ya
20100128 23:42:37< Sacho> They're pretty essential.
20100128 23:43:12< GauHelldragon> i don't doubt it
20100128 23:43:41< Sacho> They are much better meat shields than archers since they are cheaper, and their melee retaliation is significantly better.
20100128 23:44:29< GauHelldragon> hrm
20100128 23:44:41< GauHelldragon> do you know where the different movement types are defined
20100128 23:45:05< zookeeper> data/core/units.cfg
20100128 23:45:54< GauHelldragon> thanks
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 29 00:00:08 2010