--- Log opened Thu Feb 11 00:00:21 2010
--- Day changed Thu Feb 11 2010
20100211 00:00:20< Ivanovic> or the frogatto main menu will look like this: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=33197
20100211 00:00:33< CIA-62> jhinrichs * r41151 /trunk/src/ (gamestatus.cpp playsingle_controller.cpp team.hpp): Fixes players to get different colours for their side in a mp campaign, depending on the side number. Now the side colour is made persistent and carried over to the next scenario.
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20100211 00:00:46< Ivanovic> before r1713 it looked like this ingame: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=33155
20100211 00:01:23< Ivanovic> argh, looks like i attached a wrong graphic
20100211 00:01:47< Ivanovic> this is broken (<=svn r1712): https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=33154
20100211 00:01:49< CIA-62> jhinrichs * r41152 /trunk/changelog: changelog entry for mp campaign side colour fix
20100211 00:01:56< Ivanovic> software mode: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=33156
20100211 00:02:02< fabi> YogiHH, can the rest of the colors be divided without repetition if possible?
20100211 00:02:29< YogiHH> fabi: To be honest, i have no idea.
20100211 00:03:00< YogiHH> fabi: You mean that two players can't choose the same color?
20100211 00:03:35< YogiHH> or that a player doesn't get the same color as an ai side?
20100211 00:07:47< fabi> YogiHH, yes, the later. An ai should not be assigned to the same color as one of the players if there are still colors available.
20100211 00:08:11< YogiHH> fabi: Don't know if that is possible, i have to check it out
20100211 00:12:27< loonycyborg> Sirp: I mean were there other reasons to discontinue working on opengl branch than hardware support and how far was it in progress?
20100211 00:14:44< CIA-62> fendrin * r41153 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/ (11 files): Redone the carryover system of LoW.
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20100211 00:19:28< shadowmaster> Espreon: no, I don't use mesa from git. The repository is too big to clone
20100211 00:19:47< Espreon> Oh, I see...
20100211 00:20:35< Sirp> Ivanovic: okay so shadowmaster's poor performance is due to a bug?
20100211 00:20:37< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: Debian testing actually uses Mesa 7.6.1
20100211 00:20:43< shadowmaster> I am using Mesa 7.7 from mesa3d.org
20100211 00:20:49< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20100211 00:20:55< Ivanovic> Sirp: not exactly
20100211 00:21:04< Ivanovic> Sirp: he uses software renderer to see something in frogatto
20100211 00:21:11< Ivanovic> and he has to do so due to a mesa bug
20100211 00:22:04< Ivanovic> (the r6xx driver is not yet able to handle non-float vertex attributes, the attached patch adds support for short)
20100211 00:22:06< shadowmaster> right now, with Mesa 7.7 I can only see the text in the main menu. Everyything else I see is a black background, unlike a few days ago, in which I could not see the background picture but I could still see the sprites
20100211 00:22:25< shadowmaster> and I cannot try the attached patch yet until I can clone the git repo... maybe next month :/
20100211 00:22:42< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: in r1713 jetrel switched the code of some part so that basically the same (as for the background) is used everywhere
20100211 00:25:10< shadowmaster> as for the exact platform: Debian Squeeze (testing) amd64 arch, on a AMD Athlon(tm) X2 Dual-Core QL-62, using Mesa 7.7 from mesa3d.org, drm from freedesktop.org's repo HEAD, radeon ddx from freedesktop.org's repo HEAD, all three built with -O3 (formerly -O2), Linux 2.6.32.5, and everything else is pretty much the latest from Debian's testing repo.
20100211 00:25:35< shadowmaster> if I didn't use the libdrm, ddx and mesa libraries from the upstreams, I'd have no 3D accel support at all
20100211 00:32:53< shadowmaster> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d74e78fe1
20100211 00:32:59< shadowmaster> er, wrong channel
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20100211 00:51:36< YogiHH> fabi: The "team_name" attribute for the first LoW scenario is "player", is that on purpose?
20100211 01:00:35< YogiHH> off to bed, good night
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20100211 01:15:14< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: i just tested frogatto on my laptop with a by now ancient mobility 9000 (r200 based)
20100211 01:15:30< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: frogatto runs *perfectly* on that machine, full fps all the time
20100211 01:15:51< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: so once the "missing texture" bug is solved for r6xx you should be really fine, too
20100211 01:16:10< Ivanovic> that was with archlinux, kernel 2.6.32.something and mesa 7.7
20100211 01:16:19< shadowmaster> 52 MB downloaded, I'm lucky tonight
20100211 01:16:35< shadowmaster> still around 54 more to go; this is a tarball of the git repository
20100211 01:31:54< Ivanovic> will send a note about my observations with my old laptop to the dev ml tomorrow
20100211 01:31:59< Ivanovic> now i got to head off to bed, n8
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20100211 02:08:40< shadowmaster> phew, I have the repo at last
20100211 02:08:57< shadowmaster> so it took me 3 hours.
20100211 02:09:15< shadowmaster> 106 MB in 3 hours. Not bad
20100211 02:13:06< shadowmaster> Requested 'dri2proto >= 2.2' but version of DRI2Proto is 2.1
20100211 02:13:08< shadowmaster> okay...this didn't go as well as I expected.
20100211 02:15:28< shadowmaster> Sid doesn't have anything newer yet.
20100211 02:15:37< shadowmaster> okay shadowmaster, what will you do now? :/
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20100211 03:12:34< shadowmaster> meh, I try to create a bugzilla account at freedesktop.org...
20100211 03:12:53< shadowmaster> and I get punished for using long, secure passwords? What the hell?
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20100211 03:18:12< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: frogatto now runs well here thanks to the patch from bug #26471
20100211 03:18:21< shadowmaster> added a comment to confirm it on r7xx anyway
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20100211 04:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: tagged 1.7.13, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 65 bugs, 245 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100211 08:01:47< Zarel> Spam alert!
20100211 08:01:48< Zarel> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28848
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20100211 08:31:44< CIA-62> silene * r41154 /trunk/src/serialization/parser.cpp: Fixed empty attributes being discarded at save time, as it may cause subtile behavior differences when saving/reloading a game.
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20100211 10:40:31< Ivanovic> moin
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20100211 11:56:49< zookeeper> Ivanovic, i'd suggest giving rocket16 a brief kickban (like a day) or muting him if he continues with all that trolling. he's been doing it for days already.
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20100211 12:48:39< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: so were you at about 50fps on your box with mesa git + patch basically all the (relevant) time?
20100211 12:48:55< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: like i said, it is "just" a driver bug / missing feature atm
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20100211 12:57:12< loonycyborg> radeon on linux is synonym of pain afaict :P
20100211 12:57:32< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: uhm, the open source driver basically works nicely so far
20100211 12:58:18< loonycyborg> Which one of them do you mean?
20100211 13:00:14< Ivanovic> xf86-video-ati with mesa, libdrm and a recent kernel
20100211 13:01:07< loonycyborg> Does it use hardware acceleration?
20100211 13:02:10< loonycyborg> I also would be interested in seeing output of glewinfo on it.
20100211 13:02:28< Ivanovic> the problem with frogatto is only that mesa for r6xx/r7xx does atm only support float values for vertex arguments
20100211 13:02:35< Ivanovic> of course it does
20100211 13:04:19< loonycyborg> I'm wondering what gl versions/extensions it supports. glewinfo would tell that.
20100211 13:05:00< Ivanovic> http://pastebin.com/m67146127
20100211 13:05:48< fendrin> Ivanovic: I realy don't understand what is all that fuzz about. I am using linux since 1998 only. And I had hardware acceleration working through all that years. First with 3dfx vodoo cards later with nvidia and now with ati. And it was always ready to play the newest ID software kill everything moving in high refresh rates.
20100211 13:06:08< Ivanovic> fendrin: sure, with the proprietary driver
20100211 13:06:15< Ivanovic> fendrin: we are now talking about the open source one
20100211 13:06:26< loonycyborg> So it even supports gl 2.0. Nice.
20100211 13:07:04< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: like i said, i see no real problem in regards to opengl for wesnoth, the open source drivers are already nice
20100211 13:07:22< loonycyborg> Even those in debian stable?
20100211 13:07:43< fendrin> Let's just do it or leave it but don't talk about driver and mesa versions any more. Other people have to solve that.
20100211 13:07:44< Ivanovic> in my test yesterday on my really dated old laptop (P4 2.8Ghz with a mobility 9000 (r200)) it was perfectly fine with some mesa 7.7
20100211 13:07:58< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yes, the next debian stable (out "soon") will be fine, too
20100211 13:09:43< Ivanovic> fendrin: so far it was meant as a test if we will reduce the playerbase significantly
20100211 13:10:08< Ivanovic> this should not be the case as the test so far has shown, since even ancient hardware does provide the level of acceleration we require
20100211 13:10:28< fendrin> If I want to have a open source driver only installation I just have to buy other hardware. I always buy my hardware with linux in mind. Most geeks do. There are only 0.2 percent of all people playing wesnoth that are geek enough to insist of using open source drivers but not geeky enough to buy the right hardware for it.
20100211 13:11:16< Ivanovic> :)
20100211 13:11:37< Ivanovic> fendrin: with the changes that happened over the last year, it is just possible for those geeks to have a performant system
20100211 13:12:07< Ivanovic> fendrin: when we last discussed opengl for real (at fosdem 2008) that was not the case, at that time there was basically only recent hardware from intel with open source drivers
20100211 13:12:12< Ivanovic> so it is a significant change
20100211 13:12:13< Ivanovic> ;)
20100211 13:14:54< loonycyborg> Even nvidia open source driver is showing much progress :)
20100211 13:15:08< fendrin> The situation isn't that bad since long. Ubuntu for example is realy anal like windows when it comes to 3d acceleration in hardware. It has evil popups advertising the closed source driver and try to talk you into clicking yes. Afterwards opengl works nicely on nearly any hardware. 
20100211 13:15:36< Ivanovic> :)
20100211 13:15:59< fendrin> I have had a look into the library cairo with the opengl plugin. 
20100211 13:16:41< Ivanovic> fendrin: the main reason that spoke against opengl some two years ago was that a huge potion of our userbase might be cut off if opengl was mandatory, since this is not the case anymore we can look at implementing things "for real"
20100211 13:16:46< Ivanovic> and what do you think?
20100211 13:18:04< Ivanovic> time for breakfast, i'll be back ;)
20100211 13:18:21< fendrin> I think opengl will likely more hard to support well on Windows. Microsoft tries to get rid of it since ages and the newest windows7 is still lacking proper support.
20100211 13:18:49< loonycyborg> Isn't that hearsay?
20100211 13:18:56< fendrin> yes it is
20100211 13:19:05< fendrin> the information isn't uptodate
20100211 13:20:26< loonycyborg> I don't think Microsoft will try to actually get rid of it. Then might pretend they did though :P
20100211 13:20:54< Ivanovic> fendrin: the support for opengl comes with the graphics driver
20100211 13:21:06< Ivanovic> since you have to install it manually anyway, there is no issue!
20100211 13:21:20< Ivanovic> that was already the case with winXP, IIRC
20100211 13:21:24< Ivanovic> so no real difference
20100211 13:21:25< Ivanovic> ;)
20100211 13:23:24< fendrin> Cairo can offer a splitt of the rendering pathes very late. You first render in some cairo object which can later be placed inside an opengl context or a traditional one. Looks like that can be used to support both kind of render systems without much overhead. But I am not sure if I have understand the documentation right.
20100211 13:24:27< fendrin> What bothers me most is that I don't understand how the actual drawing into the opengl pipeline would be done.
20100211 13:25:06< fendrin> Do we have hexfield shaped 2d meshes that are filled with an texture? 
20100211 13:28:43 * loonycyborg doesn't understand fendrin's question :(
20100211 13:30:17< fendrin> Okay, I know opengl as an engine to render textures into meshes.
20100211 13:30:25< fendrin> right?
20100211 13:31:19< loonycyborg> Probably you specify the shape of a hex along the texture to cairo and tell it to flood fill it. That should cause cairo to emit appropriate glBegin/glVertex etc calls.
20100211 13:34:05< fendrin> So a wesnoth map would consist of a web of hex meshes (Probably several layered) filled with their textures with additional meshes on top that are used for displaying units and overlays?
20100211 13:35:05< loonycyborg> Something like this, yes.
20100211 13:44:27< Ivanovic> re
20100211 13:45:09< fendrin> What is cairo already used for?
20100211 13:45:23< fendrin> in wesnoth
20100211 13:45:31< Ivanovic> the dialogs
20100211 13:45:41< fendrin> uh?
20100211 13:45:42< Ivanovic> (as in message boxes with portraits and the like)
20100211 13:45:54< fendrin> so only mordantes gui2 uses cairo?
20100211 13:45:58< Ivanovic> jupp
20100211 13:46:04< Ivanovic> only gui2 is cairo based
20100211 13:46:06< fendrin> all of gui2 or just the message boxes only?
20100211 13:46:10< Ivanovic> all of it
20100211 13:46:13< fendrin> ah
20100211 13:46:54< Ivanovic> so far the "map view" is not gui2 and that is the area where opengl acceleration will have the highest impact anyway
20100211 13:47:36< fendrin> map view? The game board?
20100211 13:47:39< Ivanovic> jupp
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20100211 13:56:58< fendrin> Ivanovic: Looks like that glitz backend can be used to fallback to normal xlib mode easily. That would be the way to go if we want to support software rendering without much work as well.
20100211 13:57:27< Ivanovic> fendrin: what i head in the last days is that glitz itself is basically unmaintained atm which could become a real problem for us
20100211 13:57:38< loonycyborg> fendrin: That's my thought as well.
20100211 13:58:21< loonycyborg> We might even consider taking over one of cairo-gl ourselves :P
20100211 13:59:27< loonycyborg> s/cairo-gl/cairo-gl projects
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20100211 14:09:52< fendrin> loonycyborg: All of that example code at the cairo opengl website is not reachable anymore.
20100211 14:10:23< Ivanovic> fendrin: you saw the fosdem presentation i liked some days ago?
20100211 14:10:38< Ivanovic> http://anholt.livejournal.com/42146.html
20100211 14:10:46< fendrin> Ivanovic: No, thanks for reposting it.
20100211 14:11:03< Ivanovic> maybe you can directly ping anholt about this and ask him what his view on the subject is
20100211 14:11:29< Ivanovic> i am currently typing a mail to #wesnoth-dev stating my test results as well as "okay, speed is fine, now to the next step..."
20100211 14:21:12< Ivanovic> mail sent
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20100211 14:36:48< esr> 15 bugs and 1 FR closed.
20100211 14:39:41< Ivanovic> not too bad!
20100211 14:41:05< Ivanovic> esr, fendrin: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15329
20100211 14:41:57< esr> Ivanovic: I'm about to commit a fix.
20100211 14:42:39< CIA-62> esr * r41155 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/utils/generators.cfg: 
20100211 14:42:39< CIA-62> Address bug #15329: DM::Night in the swamp: unit types capable of
20100211 14:42:39< CIA-62> destroying generators are wrong.
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20100211 15:19:05< fendrin> Ivanovic: Do you know where the game map is being painted?
20100211 15:29:07< Ivanovic> no
20100211 15:29:32< CIA-62> esr * r41156 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py: Deduce types for more macro formals. No conflicts in mainline.
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20100211 15:30:28< loonycyborg> fendrin: game_display.cpp probably.
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20100211 15:43:33< Ivanovic> esr: please do NOT close the sdl clicking bug even though it is upstream!!!
20100211 15:56:35< esr> What makes this upstream bug different?
20100211 15:57:07< Ivanovic> esr: that we get hundreds of dupes of it if it is not there directly
20100211 15:57:28< Ivanovic> and that this one is used (by me and others) to keep track of all the info for the libsdl dev
20100211 15:57:33< CIA-62> esr * r41157 /trunk/data/ (core/terrain-graphics/tiles.cfg tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py): More macro argument type abnnotations. No conflicts in mainline.
20100211 15:58:00< esr> OK, I certainly won't object if you reopen it.
20100211 15:58:26< Ivanovic> already have done so
20100211 15:58:29< esr> I''ll try to remember not to close it again. 
20100211 15:59:07< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100211 16:36:29< CIA-62> esr * r41158 /trunk/data/ (3 files in 2 dirs): wmllint/wmlscope cleanup. BNo conflicts in mainline.
20100211 16:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: tagged 1.7.13, announcing "soon" | string/feature freeze active! | 64 bugs, 246 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100211 16:43:43< Ivanovic> announcing 1.7.13 now
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20100211 16:53:42< Ivanovic> 1.7.13 release announcement: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28854
20100211 16:56:58< Ivanovic> updated the frontpage
20100211 16:57:03-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 64 bugs, 246 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100211 16:58:37< CIA-62> ivanovic * r41159 /trunk/RELEASE_NOTES: purge the RELEASE_NOTES now that 1.7.13 is out
20100211 17:00:09< Ivanovic> Soliton: have you already updated the motd for the mp server? if not, please do so
20100211 17:10:12< Ivanovic> ilor: have you passed mondays exam?
20100211 17:10:18< Ivanovic> you should have the results by now, right?
20100211 17:10:37< ilor> Ivanovic: yes I did, guess I forgot to celebrate *here* ;P
20100211 17:10:41< ilor> so, YAY ;D
20100211 17:11:06< Ivanovic> yes, you forgot to do so, but if that is because you are busy with the mp lobby then i got no problem...
20100211 17:11:07< Ivanovic> ;)
20100211 17:15:12< Ivanovic> fendrin: how "stable" is the multiplayer campaign support of LoW?
20100211 17:15:43< Ivanovic> that is: do you think this is stable enough to announce as new "main feature" in the 1.8 release announcement once it had some more testing?
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20100211 17:15:48< Ivanovic> hi Sirp
20100211 17:18:26< fendrin> Ivanovic: pretty unstable. Well maybe not. It's untested which can mean it is unstable. But most likely like every untested stuff it's highly stable.
20100211 17:19:14< Ivanovic> and i was already starting to hope that we can extend the 1.8 announcement a little...
20100211 17:21:15< fendrin> Ivanovic: yes please mention it. Say that it is unstable and only meant for testing but that we rely on the feedback.
20100211 17:21:57< Ivanovic> fendrin: ehm, if it is not available by default, it will not be mentioned in the full sized html announcement that comes together with the start of the new stable series
20100211 17:22:44< fendrin> Ivanovic: It's not behind a compile flag but only behind a runtime argument.
20100211 17:22:50< Ivanovic> i know
20100211 17:23:33< Ivanovic> but it is not the right thing for this announcement: http://wesnoth.org/start/1.8/
20100211 17:23:55< Ivanovic> though maybe you can add a paragraph about multiple leaders in the "for content developers" section?
20100211 17:24:30< Ivanovic> Soliton: were there really zero balancing changes between branching trunk off of 1.6 and today?
20100211 17:24:52< fendrin> Ivanovic: I can filter all the scenarios but the first one away and open that for non debug mode. LoW scenarios 1 till 7 are quite stable already. I guess what could break the scene will be most likely a c++ bug.
20100211 17:25:18< Ivanovic> fendrin: sounds good to me
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20100211 17:25:33< Ivanovic> that is: i mentioned the mp campaign support already in the 1.7.13 announcement
20100211 17:25:45< Ivanovic> would be great to get some feedback so that we know if tehre are breakages left
20100211 17:26:02< fendrin> Ivanovic: Right, let's hope people play it.
20100211 17:27:14< Ivanovic> fendrin, esr, zookeeper, anyone else: if you got something to add to the release announcement text, please either tell me or just add things to http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/website/start/1.8/template.html?rev=40176&view=markup
20100211 17:27:51< fendrin> Ivanovic: I will add a paragraph about the multiple leaders.
20100211 17:28:26< Ivanovic> currently the announcements looks too empty (at least in my opinion, there was more done that affects the user than what is listed there atm)
20100211 17:28:42< Ivanovic> and yeah, i will eventually have to create some new, good looking screenshots for the announcements
20100211 17:29:10< Ivanovic> i would love to have the translators start working on the announcement something like on sunday with the only "not yet decided" point being the date of the release
20100211 17:29:50< Ivanovic> hmm, we should maybe also add a paragraph about the notification system support that was added
20100211 17:30:16< Ivanovic> though i have no idea how to formulate this best (relevant only for multiplayer, linux and "application not focused")
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20100211 17:41:42< fendrin> Ivanovic: Wasn't that editor gsoc for 1.6? I think there hasn't been much change on the editor since it.
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20100211 17:42:53< fendrin> Ivanovic: Please make a screenshot that includes an orcish keep.
20100211 17:43:07< Ivanovic> yes, it was last year, please remove this paragraph
20100211 17:43:22< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: I added notification support on Mac too ;)
20100211 17:43:31< Ivanovic> cool
20100211 17:43:43< crimson_penguin> (back when notification support was first added)
20100211 17:43:46< Ivanovic> so it is just windows that sucks in those regards (anyone in here suprised?)
20100211 17:43:48< Ivanovic> ^^
20100211 17:43:49< crimson_penguin> with Growl
20100211 17:43:56< crimson_penguin> :D
20100211 17:44:19< crimson_penguin> I included the library that doesn't ask users to install it, because I figure if they don't already have it, they probably don't want it just for Wesnoth
20100211 18:03:30< CIA-62> fendrin * r41160 /website/start/1.8/template.html: 
20100211 18:03:30< CIA-62> Removed editor work.
20100211 18:03:30< CIA-62> Added gamestate inspector.
20100211 18:03:30< CIA-62> Talked about multleaders and multiplayer campaign support.
20100211 18:03:37< fendrin> Ivanovic: ^ 
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20100211 18:04:45< fendrin> Ivanovic: What about lua? And the ai?
20100211 18:05:10< Ivanovic> lua is mentioned and ai is mentioned at singleplayer
20100211 18:05:25< Ivanovic> but at least lua could be more verbose including some nice example where it is already used
20100211 18:05:35< Ivanovic> (as in "what it does for content creators")
20100211 18:05:55< fendrin> Are you fine with my changes?
20100211 18:06:20< Ivanovic> let me first read over them
20100211 18:06:21< Ivanovic> ;)
20100211 18:07:23< Ivanovic> sounds good to me!
20100211 18:08:06< fendrin> Ivanovic: I will add that the ai is now scritable in content developers.
20100211 18:08:39< Ivanovic> ah, right, okay
20100211 18:08:53< Ivanovic> that is "more scriptable, as can be seen in LoW" might be correct
20100211 18:09:02< Ivanovic> since basic formula ai was already there in 1.6
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20100211 18:18:29< CIA-62> fendrin * r41161 /website/start/1.8/template.html: More praise to lua and the ai.
20100211 18:18:37< fendrin> Ivanovic: ^ 
20100211 18:20:46< fendrin> Ivanovic: I don't think that 1.8 is a release with only a few changes. There are many user visible changes on the music and art sector. And many things that have envolved greatly for the content developers.
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20100211 18:21:54< Ivanovic> fendrin: if you now also add some part about the notification support to "Multiplayer" we should be fine
20100211 18:22:04< Ivanovic> that is: the amount is already a lot better than before!
20100211 18:22:55< fendrin> zookeeper: When did you introduce the new carryover system? Was it in 1.5 or 1.7?
20100211 18:23:08< Ivanovic> 1.5 IIRC
20100211 18:23:15< zookeeper> fendrin, umm, i don't remember :P
20100211 18:23:26< zookeeper> it's in the changelog
20100211 18:35:55< CIA-62> fendrin * r41162 /website/start/1.8/template.html: 
20100211 18:35:55< CIA-62> Multiplayer notification.
20100211 18:35:55< CIA-62> Loyal units are marked now.
20100211 18:35:55< CIA-62> AI is able to recall.
20100211 18:35:55< CIA-62> And some more.
20100211 18:36:24< fendrin> Ivanovic: ^  I can dig out more if you want.
20100211 18:36:42< fendrin> Ivanovic: Did you mention the localized images?
20100211 18:36:57< Ivanovic> i don't think so, so please add those, too
20100211 18:41:07< CIA-62> fendrin * r41163 /website/start/1.8/template.html: Mentioned the localization of images.
20100211 18:44:17< Ivanovic> fendrin: have you tested how multiplayer campaigns work with different langs?
20100211 18:44:27< Ivanovic> as in: one player in eg german, one playing in french
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20100211 18:46:20< mordante> servus
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20100211 18:48:54< fendrin> Ivanovic: no, my system language is english. Can't stand programm menus in german. I know better what is meant when reading english. I wouldn't even notice if wesnoth translation would fail in general.
20100211 18:49:16< mordante> loonycyborg, no the debian stable drivers are still slow, that's why my netbook beats frogatto in the fps count 50 vs. 20
20100211 18:52:20< mordante> fendrin, I only use pango/cairo for text rendering in gui2 the other stuff is SDL based
20100211 18:52:52< mordante> don't let Ivanovic try to convince you otherwise ;-)
20100211 18:55:22< mordante> congrats ilor 
20100211 18:55:35< ilor> thanks mordante :)
20100211 18:55:53< fendrin> mordante: Do you have an opinion about caire with the opengl backend? 
20100211 18:56:03< ilor> mordante: I hope to have diff-joining done later today
20100211 18:56:09< mordante> ilor, cool
20100211 18:56:22< ilor> this will allow us to poll the network much more often like it should be
20100211 18:56:47< mordante> fendrin, yeah why cairo-gl and not SDL-gl?
20100211 18:56:50< ilor> with gamelist updates joined together and delayed slightly if there are many 
20100211 18:57:08< mordante> but I think that if we go OGL using it directly would be the best way
20100211 18:57:19< fendrin> mordante: I think cairo can offer an api that is more friendly to what we already have. 
20100211 18:57:34< mordante> fendrin, you looked into it?
20100211 18:57:55< mordante> ilor, sounds interesting
20100211 18:58:36< ilor> mordante: essentially it will work like in the old lobby, only the updates will be diffs (like now) so no gamelist redoing
20100211 18:58:55< mordante> and the same for players?
20100211 18:59:28< ilor> that's separate
20100211 18:59:52< ilor> figuring out what goes where on the playerlist is somewhat tricky
20100211 19:01:15< mordante> I feared that :-(
20100211 19:01:48< loonycyborg> mordante: OpenGL is for 3D stuff. You'll definitely want an abstraction layer if you do 2D work. And cairo is such abstraction layer.
20100211 19:02:16< fendrin> mordante: The cairo people tell my to have a look at http://clutter-project.org/ . They say it fits our needs.
20100211 19:03:14< ilor> mordante: it's possible, but gamelist is much easier (no sorting!)
20100211 19:03:27< mordante> loonycyborg, I know cairo is such an abstraction layer, but what's wrong with SDL OGL?
20100211 19:04:02< loonycyborg> Nothing. It just doesn't offer such layer.
20100211 19:05:05< loonycyborg> In other words it's something altogether different. 
20100211 19:05:50< mordante> ok that answers my question
20100211 19:06:06< mordante> fendrin, I had a short look and maybe you should post it to the dev-ml
20100211 19:06:43< mordante> it seems to allow pango rendering which I think is interesting
20100211 19:06:43< fendrin> mordante: You are quick in gathering an positive first opinion. What exactly did trigger it?
20100211 19:06:55< mordante> that it allows pango rendering
20100211 19:07:18< mordante> which of course is also possible with the cairo 
20100211 19:07:41< mordante> but glitz seems dead and I don't know how this new project is comming along
20100211 19:08:21< mordante> ilor, yes the gamelist is much easier, maybe we need to see how hard it's needed to also do the player list
20100211 19:08:50< ilor> mordante: doable
20100211 19:10:23< mordante> ah good to know
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20100211 19:17:12< fendrin> mordante: What about scene-graph? Do you know why that can be useful?
20100211 19:18:56< mordante> no don't know what it is ;-)
20100211 19:19:59< fendrin> mordante: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_graph New to me either. 
20100211 19:20:30< fendrin> That is what we are looking for if the communication between me and the cairo channel was successful.
20100211 19:21:00< mordante> that page talks about vector based, most of wesnoth is not vector based
20100211 19:25:48< fendrin> mordante: The scene graph website deosn't talk much about graphics. It's more about graph data structures.
20100211 19:26:35< fendrin> mordante: If I understand it well enough it could be used to define a mesh of hexfields that are considered as game entities in the scene graph very easily.
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20100211 20:22:42< YogiHH> hello
20100211 20:22:54< Ivanovic> hi YogiHH
20100211 20:23:35< YogiHH> fendrin: I have found where the message for who's turn it is is generated. Everytime a leader is created, his name is used for that side, so the last found leader determines what gets shown in the message.
20100211 20:23:53< YogiHH> fendrin: I can put in whatever you want instead.
20100211 20:24:52< mordante> hi YogiHH 
20100211 20:37:44-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100211 20:37:50< silene> hi
20100211 20:40:46< Sirp> hi silene 
20100211 20:42:30< zookeeper> yo silene
20100211 20:42:40< mordante> hi Sirp 
20100211 20:42:43< mordante> hi silene *
20100211 20:43:35< mordante> btw Sirp frogatto runs fast enough on my netbook with Debian testing, so Debian stable just is too slow
20100211 20:43:59-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100211 20:44:58< zookeeper> silene, so can something like foo="" now appear in savefiles too?
20100211 20:45:40< zookeeper> Crab_, maybe you want to chime in here if you got the time? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28852
20100211 20:45:42< Ivanovic> Sirp: you might be interested in having a look at todays irclog regarding a little about the cairo stuff
20100211 20:45:57< Crab_> zookeeper: I'll take a look
20100211 20:46:14< Ivanovic> mordante: more recent mesa would not do you any good, you would not see textures (until the patch from the bugreport is applied)
20100211 20:46:42< Sirp> mordante: okay, nice.
20100211 20:46:43< Sirp> Ivanovic: okay.
20100211 20:47:43< mordante> Ivanovic, I read that, but at least what's currently in Debian testing is fast enough on my netbook
20100211 20:47:55< mordante> and Debian stable is too slow for my desktop
20100211 20:50:57< fendrin> Sirp: Someone on the cairo irc channel pointed me to http://clutter-project.org/download.html for wesnoth and opengl. 
20100211 20:51:48< fendrin> YogiHH: I am still not sure what name should be shown to the player.
20100211 20:52:11< YogiHH> fendrin: Well, if you do let me know ;)
20100211 20:52:51< silene> zookeeper: yes, now they are saved, so that there is no confusion as to what the engine actually manipulates
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20100211 20:53:48< zookeeper> silene, all right
20100211 20:54:31< zookeeper> so basically that shouldn't break anything, because it only makes loading a game work the same way as if you had just played continuously without saving/loading in between?
20100211 20:54:49< fendrin> YogiHH: I would like to say that it is the players turn in a single player campaign. But that introduces new strings.
20100211 20:54:54< mordante> I'm off bye
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20100211 20:55:28< fendrin> YogiHH: Let it say the name of the leader with the lowest underlying_id. That should be kalenz in that case.
20100211 20:55:36< silene> zookeeper: that's right
20100211 21:05:17< zookeeper> silene, ok, sounds good to me.
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20100211 21:09:56< Ivanovic> silene: any impact on replays or should it be transparent to those?
20100211 21:11:07< silene> Ivanovic: yes, the same as for savefile: empty attributes will no be longer be lost in the process
20100211 21:11:21< Ivanovic> ah, so less replays should be broken
20100211 21:11:53< silene> Ivanovic: no, i doubt it; if the replays were broken for this reason, save/load would have been too
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20100211 21:12:50< silene> in practice, the only nonartificial situation that my patch fixes is filtering on units without a role (that is, role="")
20100211 21:14:30< silene> i mean, that's the only one i can think of, but there are probably others, since there are 98 places in the engine that tests for the presence of an attribute
20100211 21:26:49< CIA-62> esr * r41164 /trunk/data/ (5 files in 2 dirs): More impprovements in macro type checking. No conflicts in mainline.
20100211 21:32:47-!- k23z__ [~k23z__@188.26.194.154] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100211 21:35:52< Crab_> zookeeper: can a SUF  filter on a number of attacks left ?
20100211 21:36:44-!- [Relic] [~Relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100211 21:37:06< zookeeper> Crab_, yeah, at least with [filter_wml] attacks_left=<num> [/filter_wml]
20100211 21:37:18< Crab_> zookeeper: thanks
20100211 21:37:42< [Relic]> Hello :)
20100211 21:56:20< Crab_> zookeeper: ok, wrote a comment in the forum topic you've mentioned
20100211 21:56:29< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: 50 fps, yes
20100211 21:57:07< shadowmaster> that seems to be the hardcoded application's maximum. Supertux runs at a maximum of 68 fps too; a duke nukem 3d port runs over 160 fps
20100211 21:57:18< Soliton> Ivanovic: there have been a couple of balancing tweaks, nothing major though.
20100211 21:57:35< Ivanovic> Soliton: could you collect a list of those and add them in the announcement?
20100211 21:57:53< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: yes, 50fps is the hardcoded limit
20100211 21:58:40< Soliton> of course i could but i doubt i'll find the time..
20100211 22:01:21< shadowmaster> "If I want to have a open source driver only installation I just have to buy other hardware."
20100211 22:01:24< shadowmaster> fendrin: sure, we all can do that :|
20100211 22:02:34< fendrin> shadowmaster: Often that hardware that is supported from open source drivers is cheaper. For example the intel chips work fine for me.
20100211 22:02:43< shadowmaster> this is not about some kind of opensource purism; I am perfectly happy to use proprietary software such as Microsoft Office on Linux
20100211 22:03:05< shadowmaster> the problem is that the proprietary drivers are crap in terms of stability (and that buzzing sound? brrr)
20100211 22:03:18< fendrin> buzzing sound?
20100211 22:03:35< shadowmaster> yes, when running with ATI's Catalyst a.k.a. fglrx drivers the laptop makes a buzzing sound
20100211 22:03:52< fendrin> did you do the magic tric?
20100211 22:04:00< shadowmaster> the what?
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20100211 22:04:30< Noyga> well
20100211 22:04:52< Noyga> my GPU owrke fine with catalyst
20100211 22:05:00< fendrin> shadowmaster: aticonfig --pplib-cmd "set fanspeed 0 24" That quiets the fans for me.
20100211 22:05:00< shadowmaster> it doesn't do that with the Catalyst drivers on Windows Vista, or radeon or radeonhd ddx on Linux
20100211 22:05:11< Noyga> now witout i have kernel oopses :/
20100211 22:05:13< shadowmaster> fendrin: I don't have any fans besides the CPU's! this is a laptop
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20100211 22:06:15< fendrin> shadowmaster: Sorry, I thought buzzing sound had something todo with fans. Where is the sound comming from?
20100211 22:06:45< shadowmaster> it seems to come from the screen, but it's very faint
20100211 22:07:06< shadowmaster> since my other laptop's screen started dying some time after experimenting with fglrx as well, welll..
20100211 22:07:38< shadowmaster> also, I like to be able to switch VTs without crashing the kernel and the BIOS
20100211 22:07:59< fendrin> That is working for me.
20100211 22:08:09< fendrin> But it has been a problem for a long time.
20100211 22:08:31< fendrin> Maybe it still is a problem with some of the chips.
20100211 22:09:49< fendrin> shadowmaster: But to say it again: Geeks (and most linux users are Geeks) buy their hardware with linux in mind. And ati is there a no go. The nvidia driver is realy working fast and well for a long time now. Or intel.
20100211 22:10:00< shadowmaster> I didn't buy the laptop.
20100211 22:10:06< shadowmaster> :P
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20100211 22:14:46< shadowmaster> I didn't buy the other one either, for that matter. Although Debian lenny did provide 3d accel for it before it became the current stable... I can't remember if it did so with fglrx or not though
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20100211 22:43:32< Ivanovic> fendrin: in fact i bought the ati card because that was the only way i could get what i wanted
20100211 22:43:41< Ivanovic> i wanted digital outputs
20100211 22:43:58< Ivanovic> those were, at that time, not available on intel boards that had enough pci slots for me (>=3)
20100211 22:45:39< Ivanovic> and yeah, since amd/ati does support open source drivers by releasing (rather) complete sources, that is perfectly fine for me
20100211 22:46:07< shadowmaster> sources?
20100211 22:46:13< shadowmaster> I thought they released the specifications, not the sources
20100211 22:47:30< Ivanovic> yeah, specs
20100211 22:47:34< Ivanovic> sorry
20100211 22:47:51< Ivanovic> (hey, both start with 's', so it is rather similar, right?)
20100211 22:47:53< Ivanovic> ;)
20100211 22:49:51< shadowmaster> creating empty directory: data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/translations
20100211 22:49:53< shadowmaster> hm.
20100211 22:50:27< shadowmaster> ah, I just upgraded git from 1.6.5 to 1.6.6, that's what Espreon was talking about some months ago... :S
20100211 22:50:30< fendrin> Ivanovic: I am running with an ati card as well. Hoped the open source drivers would be ready earlier. It is working well. But my xserver does only run once. Every time I log out it doesn't restart. So reboot. That is with the fglrx.
20100211 22:50:53< fendrin> The open source driver can't target my card at all.
20100211 22:51:02< Ivanovic> fendrin: using the open source drivers things are perfectly fine over here
20100211 22:51:17< Ivanovic> what card are you using that the open source drivers don't work?
20100211 22:51:54< fendrin> ATI Technologies Inc RV770 [Radeon HD 4850]
20100211 22:51:55< Ivanovic> (and which distri)
20100211 22:52:10< fendrin> Ubuntu Karmic Koala
20100211 22:52:12< Ivanovic> uhm, okay, the 4850 worked accelerated before mine IIRC
20100211 22:53:17< fendrin> Ivanovic: There seems to be some kind of acceleration working but it's not enough for etqw for example. The proprietary is doing that.
20100211 22:53:27< Ivanovic> isn't this koala edition the one from october?
20100211 22:53:41< fendrin> It's current stable.
20100211 22:53:41< Ivanovic> it should have 2d accell as well as video accell, but that's probably it
20100211 22:54:28< Ivanovic> no idea if etqw will work nicely though with the open source drivers
20100211 22:54:38< Ivanovic> as testcase i just started ut2004 and that one worked okay
20100211 22:54:57< Ivanovic> (what sucks about fglrx is that there is still no xorg-server 1.7.x support)
20100211 22:55:51< fendrin> Why do you need xorg 1.7.x?
20100211 22:57:15< Ivanovic> i use it because it is the "default" in gentoo unstable
20100211 22:57:16< Ivanovic> ;)
20100211 22:57:49< Ivanovic> and i don't want to mask many packages (probably some 20 or the likes) just to stay at xorg-server 1.6.x
20100211 22:59:01< fendrin> The hardware vendors could realy make the step into open source drivers long time ago. This binary driver in linux stuff is realy ugly and it's worth nothing that they keep the source closed.
20100211 23:05:25< Ivanovic> fendrin: like i already said yesterday, the main reason for amd behind this is the integration of the graphics part into the cpu
20100211 23:05:53< Ivanovic> how to argument in favor of closed source drivers to make use of what your cpu has?!?
20100211 23:06:22< Ivanovic> so i assume that in a year the open source driver for ati stuff will be perfectly fine, feature and speed wise even for "just released" models
20100211 23:07:38< fendrin> Always hard to predict the future. I hope you are right. I will just go and buy another nvidia next time. 
20100211 23:08:02< loonycyborg> Nvidia will have an open source driver too soon :P
20100211 23:08:44< loonycyborg> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_(graphics) <- I mean this one. Some distros already ship it.
20100211 23:08:46< fendrin> loonycyborg: That nouveaux thing?
20100211 23:10:11< fendrin> That is around for five years now. I guess it can run duke nukem forever when it shippes for the gnu/hurd.
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20100211 23:11:03< loonycyborg> The distros using it means that it's already usable for at least 2D stuff.
20100211 23:12:41< Ivanovic> fendrin: current work on gallium and the likes gave nouveau a real boost
20100211 23:12:54< Ivanovic> though i dislike nvidia for not taking the time to release specs
20100211 23:13:12< Ivanovic> yeah, this *is* lots of work, but IMO good for the linux community to have
20100211 23:17:15< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: i found it more interesting that linus made the nouveau devs include the driver into the kernel a *lot* more important than distris shipping it
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20100211 23:18:07< Ivanovic> (uhm, i hope you understand what i mean since i don't anymore...)
20100211 23:18:43< teaser> silene: can you load lua-files mid-scenario?
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20100211 23:19:43< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: I remember that this was mentioned somewhere on slashdot.
20100211 23:20:57< Ivanovic> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzc5OQ
20100211 23:22:49< silene> teaser: yes
20100211 23:23:59< silene> teaser: though it only makes sense if the file is used only temporarily, as it won't survive a save/load
20100211 23:24:02< stikonas> After mainlining, nouveau devs even started (and now almost finished) to reverse engineer it's microcode
20100211 23:25:07< teaser> silene, aha, but if the file contains actions/data that change the current scenario those changes would remain?
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20100211 23:25:36< silene> teaser: sure
20100211 23:26:34< silene> the only things not preserved are lua objects; wml objects are just fine
20100211 23:28:51< teaser> thanks
20100211 23:29:08 * teaser wanders of in wml/lua-dreamland
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20100211 23:45:18< CIA-62> esr * r41165 /trunk/data/ (15 files in 5 dirs): More nacro argument type checking. No mismatches in mainline.
--- Log closed Fri Feb 12 00:00:55 2010