--- Log opened Fri Feb 12 00:00:55 2010
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20100212 01:25:34< CIA-62> esr * r41166 /trunk/data/ (12 files in 5 dirs): More macro argument typechecking. No mismatches in mainline.
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20100212 03:07:57< CIA-62> esr * r41167 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py: Improved macro type checking for terrain macros.
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20100212 04:40:00< CIA-62> esr * r41168 /trunk/data/ (5 files in 4 dirs): More macro argument type checking. No mismatches in mainline.
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20100212 10:59:22< Ivanovic> moin
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20100212 14:19:44< CIA-62> esr * r41169 /trunk/data/ (core/terrain-graphics/walls.cfg tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py): More macro argument type checking. No mismatches in mainline.
20100212 14:24:23< ilor> I'm unable to create a MP game with trunk, dies with a "Invalid WML received: did not found quoes around attribute"
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20100212 14:43:26< loonycyborg> ilor: I'm getting that too.
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20100212 14:44:15< ilor> loonycyborg: okay, I'm trying 1.7.13 now, build will take a while
20100212 14:52:59< ilor> 1.7.13 works
20100212 14:56:23< loonycyborg> It's good that this error didn't make it to release :)
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20100212 15:01:47< Ivanovic> ilor: rough guess: some of the fixes by esr causing it
20100212 15:02:42< ilor> Ivanovic: yeah I noticed some "validation" commits 
20100212 15:02:57< ilor> build speed is killing me though :/
20100212 15:02:58< esr> It's possible.  Bisect, please?
20100212 15:03:41< esr> The C++ won't be the issue, so you can just run a bisect on the data directory.
20100212 15:04:22< ilor> with gui changes around data out of sync with src tends to end in a crash iirc
20100212 15:05:57< esr> Note: All I've been doing is renaming macro formal arguments.
20100212 15:06:33< esr> This is so macro calls can be type checked.
20100212 15:09:11< ilor> esr: I guess I better just run bisect on everything
20100212 15:10:02< esr> OK.  I'll do one more commit and then go away for a while.
20100212 15:11:12< CIA-62> esr * r41170 /trunk/data/ (4 files in 2 dirs): More typechecking for macro arguments. No mismatches in mainline.
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20100212 15:19:06< fendrin> ilor: that may also be my fault.
20100212 15:20:04< ilor> fendrin: the only commit by you left in the bisect range is carryover changes in LoW
20100212 15:20:48< fendrin> ilor: There are also some #ifdef MULTIPLAYER in there. I may have made a mistake there.
20100212 15:22:00< ilor> fendrin: I don't see anything obvious...
20100212 15:23:11< fendrin> ilor: Right, it is working for me with my changes at revision 41154.
20100212 15:31:10< ilor> r41154 seems to be the cause
20100212 15:32:19< ilor> wesbot: log 41154
20100212 15:32:20< wesbot> silene * r41154 : Fixed empty attributes being discarded at save time, as it may cause subtile behavior differences when saving/reloading a game.
20100212 15:32:23< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41154
20100212 15:36:01< fendrin> ilor: Sorry to confuse you. I guess my svn is at 41154 but not my binary.
20100212 15:36:23< ilor> fendrin: no biggie, I understood you meant your commit, didn't look at the number ;)
20100212 15:39:05< Ivanovic> shadowmaster, stikonas, everyone else with r6xx/r7xx hardware using the mesa driver: looks like the fix for the missing textures in frogatto is now commited to mesa git
20100212 15:40:28< esr> Aha.  Good to know I didn't break multiplayer. Given what I was doing that would have been quite bizarre.
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20100212 15:45:18< Ivanovic> yes, with this commit frogatto works perfectly
20100212 15:46:42< CIA-62> ilor * r41171 /trunk/src/serialization/parser.cpp: 
20100212 15:46:42< CIA-62> Fix multiplayer games not working after r41154 ("Invalid WML received: did not find quotes around attribute" error)
20100212 15:46:42< CIA-62> Write the empty attributes as a pair of quotes that doesn't confuse other parts of the code.
20100212 15:46:47< esr> Ivanovic: Does this kill off any of our pending bugs?
20100212 15:47:02< Ivanovic> esr: what?
20100212 15:47:16< esr> The mesa fix.
20100212 15:47:25< Ivanovic> esr: i am talking about the opengl problems several of us (those relying on r6xx) had with frogatto
20100212 15:47:41< Ivanovic> this report to be more precise: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26471
20100212 15:47:55< Ivanovic> nothing (directly, at least now) wesnoth releated
20100212 15:48:03< esr> I see.  This is relevant to the discussion of moving to OpeGL as a graphics back end?
20100212 15:48:20< Ivanovic> somehow, yes
20100212 15:48:23< ilor> fendrin, loonycyborg: this should fix this, I guess silene will have a look at it anyway
20100212 15:48:34< Ivanovic> since now basically everyone should be able to test frogatto, at least when relying on mesa git
20100212 15:49:41< esr> Ivanovic: Not sure if my opinion shout count for much as I don't have the right kind of expertise to be seriously helpful...but I favor the change.  Seems to me SDL is becoming a bit confining, and we need better 3D acceleration support I think.
20100212 15:49:57< esr> s/shout/should/
20100212 15:50:03< Ivanovic> atm everything is done in software anyway
20100212 15:50:21< Ivanovic> and yeah, at fosdem we were clear that "eventually" we will need some hardware accelerated rendering
20100212 15:50:55< Ivanovic> and the evaluations so far have shown that the availibility of hardware and their drivers is not a showstopper for us
20100212 15:51:38< esr> It's far away from what I see as my main job, which is to keep our huge mass of WML under some kind of control :-)
20100212 15:51:46< Ivanovic> :)
20100212 15:53:19< esr> It's like wresting with a pile of gelatin sometimes.
20100212 15:53:37< esr> s/wrestinwrestling/
20100212 15:53:48< esr> Aaargh.  I hate my typos.
20100212 15:54:00< esr> s/wresting/wrestling/
20100212 16:07:46< zookeeper> esr, don't you look at what appears on your screen when you type? :x
20100212 16:10:50< zookeeper> i make typos constantly, but i usually notice most of them before pressing enter
20100212 16:14:16< ilor> I trust gcc to catch my typos :P
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20100212 16:17:12< Ivanovic> ilor: ah, that *can* be problematic, some typos are possible that, uhm, screw things up really badly
20100212 16:17:28< Ivanovic> but let me guess, the first check you have is syntax highlighting in your editor
20100212 16:17:31< Ivanovic> ;)
20100212 16:17:35< ilor> Ivanovic: I know, I'm not being totally serious ;P
20100212 16:18:03< Ivanovic> hey, the same way i translate
20100212 16:18:11< Ivanovic> if poedit knows the word it has to be correct...
20100212 16:18:25< Ivanovic> (that is the spellcheck in poedit, not sure which one it is exactly)
20100212 16:19:27< Ivanovic> too bad that it does not also check for missing or too many commas...
20100212 16:19:28< Ivanovic> ;)
20100212 16:19:49< ilor> just you wait, any time now AI will catch up to that :P
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20100212 16:24:18< boucman> zookeeper: around ?
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20100212 16:38:01< Sirp> hi happygrue 
20100212 16:38:26< happygrue> hello Sirp
20100212 16:38:31< happygrue> how are you?
20100212 16:41:19< ilor> mordante: it seems that without an invalidate_layout, sometimes deleting the last game from the gamelist makes it remain thre
20100212 16:41:22< ilor> *there
20100212 16:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 65 bugs, 246 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100212 16:43:10< Sirp> I'm well happygrue, and you?
20100212 16:43:22< CIA-62> boucman * r41172 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg): fix bug 15344, missing nothing to ice transition
20100212 16:43:43< happygrue> life is good.  :)
20100212 16:43:57< happygrue> I got to play Tigres and Euphrates finally
20100212 16:44:06< happygrue> that is a great game.
20100212 16:55:36< Sirp> oh really? Nice. :)
20100212 16:55:51< Sirp> I think I'd love it but I don't think anyone in the group I play games with would. :(
20100212 16:56:07< Sirp> my wife would likely play it exactly once and then refuse to play it ever again. :)
20100212 16:59:46< zookeeper> boucman, yeah, what do you need?
20100212 16:59:53< happygrue> hehe.  I have found a pretty nice group that plays a wide range of things.
20100212 17:00:36< zookeeper> boucman, i'll guess what you're gonna ask about: i tried to fix that ice transition a while ago but for some reason didn't really find a clean solution.
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20100212 17:27:14< esr> I liked Tigris and Euphrates, but I've only played it twice.
20100212 17:28:42< esr> I'm playing GMT's "War Galley" with my wife right now but she doesn't like it much and I can't really blame her.  It's a pretty crusty old-school wargame, very simulationist.
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20100212 17:44:15< ilor> ugh. mordante: assertion failed in gui/minimap.cpp:214
20100212 17:47:00< Ivanovic> off for the evening, cu
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20100212 17:54:58< boucman> zookeeper: nope, i fixed it using the ice transition
20100212 17:55:17< boucman> I wanted to discuss http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m3de37ada with you if you have some time
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20100212 18:05:14< zookeeper> boucman, oh, my eyes :&
20100212 18:05:42< boucman> yeah, I did quick and ugly to provide quickly feedback about the tiles themselves...
20100212 18:06:05< boucman> that's not what I plan to commit, but i'm not good enough to do it any other ways
20100212 18:06:06< zookeeper> boucman, is that only for the latest pack of tiles he posted?
20100212 18:06:41< boucman> that's only for the base frame
20100212 18:06:50< zookeeper> all right
20100212 18:07:02< boucman> what he provided contains two-sided transitions, and that would expand the complexity even more
20100212 18:07:15< boucman> that's why I want a way to simplify the mess before it goes out of control
20100212 18:07:29< zookeeper> i agree ;)
20100212 18:08:06< zookeeper> ok, so basically you have all those variations so that the tiles don't all play the animation in sync?
20100212 18:08:29< boucman> yes
20100212 18:08:39< boucman> they are just "rotations" of the animation frames
20100212 18:09:34< boucman> if there was a way to macro-generate these, it would be great...
20100212 18:10:44< zookeeper> which post has the base frame(s)?
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20100212 18:12:01< zookeeper> found it, newmain.zip it seems
20100212 18:12:01< boucman> zookeeper: none, I had to gimp some stuff to cut them in the way I needed them to be...
20100212 18:12:11< zookeeper> right
20100212 18:12:26< boucman> I had a zip with all needed content somewhere, gimme a minute
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20100212 18:13:47< boucman> http://files.wesnoth.org/boucman/water.zip 
20100212 18:13:53< boucman> should still be there
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20100212 18:17:03< zookeeper> ok, so all the ocean-a01-* tiles are just for the first frame
20100212 18:17:11< boucman> yes
20100212 18:17:24< zookeeper> good, at first glance i was pretty shocked at the amount of files ;)
20100212 18:17:39< boucman> hehe
20100212 18:17:44< boucman> base + 6 transitions
20100212 18:18:08< freim> pretty nice stuff from what I could see on the forum :)
20100212 18:18:25< zookeeper> couldn't you just mix all those together into a single image?
20100212 18:18:47< boucman> not sure what you mean
20100212 18:20:12< zookeeper> ok. does ocean-a01-n.png get drawn on top of ocean-a01-base.png or on the hex under it?
20100212 18:20:25< zookeeper> (i assumed the former)
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20100212 18:21:06< boucman> it gets drawn on the tile next to it 
20100212 18:21:51< zookeeper> ok
20100212 18:22:15< zookeeper> i'll grab some dinner first and then i'll continue looking into it
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20100212 18:22:22< zookeeper> won't take long ->
20100212 18:22:44< boucman> sure
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20100212 18:39:10< GNUtoo> imagemagick-native is a dep of -DGUI=tiny right?
20100212 18:39:25-!- Mythological_ [Mythologic@77.28.123.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100212 18:39:46< GNUtoo> (to remove deps when not using tinyGUI)
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20100212 18:43:10< zookeeper> boucman, ok, so what's the problem?
20100212 18:43:37< boucman> zookeeper: basically, it's working but it's ugly
20100212 18:44:13< zookeeper> i agree :P
20100212 18:44:19 * zookeeper is checking it out in the map editor
20100212 18:44:23< boucman> moreover i will have problem scaling it when I will need to have lots of macros similar to  TRANSITION_WATER 
20100212 18:44:35< boucman> zookeeper: the map editor does not animate water, check on a map
20100212 18:44:37< zookeeper> (err, i didn't mean the tiles aren't ugly)
20100212 18:44:42< zookeeper> got it
20100212 18:44:56< boucman> zookeeper: I meant the macros were ugly
20100212 18:45:42< zookeeper> goodness' sake, i really can't type right. just ignore all the 5 previous lines i've written.
20100212 18:46:09< boucman> :P
20100212 18:46:33< zookeeper> oh yeah, looks nice in-game
20100212 18:49:17< esr> That's weird.
20100212 18:49:25< zookeeper> boucman, well, actually i can't really think of a way to make the WML noticeably prettier. the pastebinned one looked more ugly than it is due to line-wrapping, but really, it seems ok..
20100212 18:49:54< boucman> ok
20100212 18:49:55< esr> Is the theme code known to be broken?  Because I think I just found a that-should-never-have-worked bug in the WML.
20100212 18:50:22< zookeeper> if you wanted to cut down on WML bloat then i'd suggest having fewer variations of the frame sequence (like just 4-8, not 15)
20100212 18:50:23< boucman> in that case i'll have to do some WML side stuff to try to clean things up... I'll give it some thinking
20100212 18:51:48< zookeeper> boucman, ok, after a bit more thinking i do have a vague idea about how one could shorten the WML considerably with some kind of a custom macro
20100212 18:52:22< zookeeper> but i can't say i'd be able to write it off the top of my head
20100212 18:52:24 * boucman listens
20100212 18:55:21< fendrin> esr: yes, mordante disabled it with the switch to gui2 afaik.
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20100212 18:59:00< zookeeper> boucman, well, i mean basically just have a single [terrain_graphics] tag per each hex, with an extra [tile] per transition so you don't need a ton of [terrain_graphics] tags.
20100212 18:59:58< boucman> not sure what you mean
20100212 18:59:59< zookeeper> so instead of TERRAIN_BASE_PF you'd use the custom macro, and that one would simultaneously place the transition tiles too
20100212 19:00:47< boucman> well, the transitions are conditional to the neighbour being an ocean
20100212 19:01:04< boucman> would Ihave to do all possible combinations of neighbours ?
20100212 19:01:10< zookeeper> no
20100212 19:01:14< boucman> hmm
20100212 19:01:20< boucman> then I'm not sure I understand
20100212 19:01:21< zookeeper> i'll try to whip something up, hold on... (might take a while)
20100212 19:01:34< boucman> ok, in that case i'll be AFK 20'
20100212 19:01:42< zookeeper> sure
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20100212 19:12:38< zookeeper> boucman, nevermind, it looks the current way is actually better
20100212 19:20:57< boucman> ok
20100212 19:21:07< zookeeper> boucman, anyway, i think it should be like this instead: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m856ab03
20100212 19:21:47< zookeeper> removed the postfix stuff from the TRANSITION_WATER_INTERNAL calls, and used name={IMAGESTEM}-@R0 in TRANSITION_WATER_INTERNAL
20100212 19:22:37< zookeeper> in the one you pastebinned, the macro had a POSTFIX parameter...how did you call that one from terrain-graphics.cfg?
20100212 19:22:47< boucman> zookeeper: I think i'll need that one later IIRC
20100212 19:22:53< zookeeper> (the contents of the .zip you linked to were different than the one you pastebinned)
20100212 19:23:16< boucman> the zip I pointed to only had the animated water
20100212 19:23:50< boucman> the one I pastebined is the WIP for animated water, I'm still working on that
20100212 19:23:56< zookeeper> right
20100212 19:24:04< boucman> it's to help me handle beaches.
20100212 19:24:35< zookeeper> yeah, you'll need it for that. in any case, i don't see how the transitions could have worked right without name={IMAGESTEM}-@R0
20100212 19:25:25< zookeeper> since AFAICT in your version it should have simply drawn ocean-aXX-base.png as the transition image..
20100212 19:25:50< boucman> the good news is I thought that the "ignore unknown images" stuff wouldn't work with anims, but apperently it does, it's just that it only checks the first image
20100212 19:26:56< boucman> right now I use the TRANSITION_WATER macro in two ways
20100212 19:27:01< boucman> {TRANSITION_WATER      (Gg*,Qxu,Mm,Ms,Hh) Wo                        -260               flat/grass-to-water @R0}
20100212 19:27:03< boucman> and
20100212 19:27:12< boucman> {TRANSITION_WATER      Wo                Wo                           -550               water/ocean base}
20100212 19:27:20< boucman> (renaming images is not a problem at this point
20100212 19:27:32< zookeeper> why are you passing @R0 there?
20100212 19:27:42< boucman> i'll probably change that into two macros so I don't have to pass it
20100212 19:27:53< boucman> and I can handle multi-sided transitions better
20100212 19:28:25< boucman> btw, is there a way to pass a function pointer like thing as a macro parameter
20100212 19:28:30< zookeeper> i'm not sure i follow, but if it works...
20100212 19:28:37< boucman> i.e write something like
20100212 19:28:46< boucman> #define macro pointer
20100212 19:29:00< boucman> {{pointer} arg1 arg2}
20100212 19:29:04< boucman> #enddef
20100212 19:37:15< boucman> Ivanovic: where do you want the FOSDEM picture posted ?
20100212 19:41:38< boucman> zookeeper: ^^^
20100212 19:42:21< zookeeper> boucman, oops, i missed the question part
20100212 19:42:29< zookeeper> i doubt it
20100212 19:42:34< boucman> darn...
20100212 19:42:42< boucman> that would have been so usefull in my case
20100212 19:42:50< boucman> zookeeper: who could confirm ? silene ?
20100212 19:43:01< zookeeper> i don't see how that'd be very useful
20100212 19:43:07< zookeeper> boucman, a quick test?
20100212 19:43:15< boucman> yeah, that too :P
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20100212 19:47:13< boucman> IT DOES WORK
20100212 19:47:24< boucman> wow, all the crazy things i'm gonna do with that
20100212 19:47:29< boucman> :D
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20100212 20:01:30< zookeeper> boucman, but what do you need that for?
20100212 20:02:08< boucman> zookeeper: gimme a sec and i'll show you
20100212 20:02:12< zookeeper> all righty
20100212 20:04:37< boucman> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m437ab060
20100212 20:04:59< boucman> this makes it easy to expand and multiply transitions
20100212 20:07:24< zookeeper> well, do note that it's really pretty unreadable
20100212 20:07:41< boucman> zookeeper: arguably easier than without it...
20100212 20:07:56< zookeeper> yeah, i don't know what kind of a mess you'd have to make otherwise
20100212 20:08:30< boucman> and this way the animation mess is limited to one macro (i'll probably be able to fold the "base" case in)
20100212 20:08:42< zookeeper> ok, that's always good.
20100212 20:09:28-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-124-191-177-16.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100212 20:12:36< ilor> wesbot: seen mordante
20100212 20:12:36< wesbot> ilor: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 23h 17m ago.  23h 17m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20100212 20:35:01-!- grzywacz [~grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100212 20:38:49< boucman> zookeeper: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m1bf86a7e <= final version at this point
20100212 20:39:05< boucman> not sure how i'll fold the base in, but at least the animation block is limited
20100212 20:42:04< boucman> dinner time now
20100212 20:45:41< zookeeper> boucman, looks good to me
20100212 20:45:57< zookeeper> although there's gonna be a hideous amount of tiles if someone really makes 4-way transitions for those
20100212 20:46:09< boucman> :P
20100212 20:46:23< boucman> i've copied the way the existing macroes worked
20100212 20:46:31< zookeeper> or even 3-way...somehow i think his idea of making them work like chasms has some benefits :p
20100212 20:46:54< boucman> i'll try to synchronize the beaches so the waves seems to roll along the coasts, but it might be tricky
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20100212 20:56:53-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100212 20:57:01< silene> hi
20100212 20:57:13< Sirp> hi silene 
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20100212 21:26:39< CIA-62> ilor * r41173 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): 
20100212 21:26:39< CIA-62> Lobby gamelist "joined diffs".
20100212 21:26:39< CIA-62> The lobby now polls the network much more often (new game_config variable,
20100212 21:26:39< CIA-62> 100ms at the moment), but updates the gamelist differences at most every
20100212 21:26:39< CIA-62> game_config::lobby_refresh msecs (which was bumped to 4000).
20100212 21:27:30< CIA-62> ilor * r41174 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/minimap.cpp: there's a problem with the previous commit that results in an assert in tminimap firing, not drawing anything instead makes things work, even if it's not exactly a proper solution
20100212 21:30:16-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100212 21:33:12< ilor> mordante: I guess you'll like r41173, but might not enjoy r41174 ;)
20100212 21:36:57< zookeeper> hi, Crab_
20100212 21:37:04< Crab_> hi zookeeper
20100212 21:38:13< zookeeper> Crab_, there seems to be a problem with the AI controller...i tried it out on the first HttT scenario and it worked out fine for a few turns, but then the AI turns turned reeeeeally slow, almost as if the game froze.
20100212 21:38:27< Crab_> how to reproduce ?
20100212 21:38:29< zookeeper> i've got a save with which i can reproduce it
20100212 21:38:35< Crab_> good
20100212 21:38:49< Crab_> send it via forum PM to Crab
20100212 21:40:19< zookeeper> all right
20100212 21:40:34< Crab_> or attach to a bug..
20100212 21:40:43< zookeeper> btw i'm using a r41142 build, in case you've fixed something related really recently..
20100212 21:51:41< Crab_> we'll see
20100212 21:51:59< zookeeper> oh, forgot to mention: 
20100212 21:52:00< Crab_> my build is earlier :)
20100212 21:52:05< Crab_> 41111, that is :)
20100212 21:52:23< zookeeper> i just added {AI_CONTROLLER () 1 5,6 ()} to the scenario, that's all
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20100212 21:52:56< zookeeper> and on the first turn i told chantal and galdrad to attack blue, and now on turn 4 i told them to protect konrad
20100212 21:53:11< zookeeper> the latter seemed to trigger the problem
20100212 21:53:38< zookeeper> so it seems to be related to changing orders
20100212 22:01:34< Crab_> I need only to end turn ?
20100212 22:01:43< Crab_> or tell them to protect konrad first ?
20100212 22:01:51< zookeeper> end turn
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20100212 22:09:43< Crab_> zookeeper: reproduced
20100212 22:10:15< zookeeper> great
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20100212 22:15:13< Crab_> zookeeper: heh, the ai has found 1783900047 targets :) I'll investigate 
20100212 22:17:07< boucman> Crab_: it needs a machine gun, I guess
20100212 22:18:37< Crab_> boucman: btw, speaking about machine guns... is there any animation effect which covers several nearby hexes ? e.g. something like a 3x3 fireball ?
20100212 22:18:52< fendrin> boucman: Hello. A person on the cairo mailingliste pointed me to http://www.clutter-project.org/ for the wesnoth opengl port. It supports pango and I do find the scene-graph interresting.
20100212 22:19:36< boucman> Crab_: MoL haloes ?
20100212 22:20:03< Crab_> boucman: no, i was thinking about something destructive in nature :)
20100212 22:20:20< boucman> not that I know of
20100212 22:21:28< Crab_> boucman: you see, I'm thinking about adding an ai action to "execute specified WML event", to allow, for example, fai to  be used to trigger scenario-specific attacks.
20100212 22:21:30< boucman> fendrin: might be interesting, but it's way more than we need 
20100212 22:21:38< boucman> it can replace the whole widget system apparently
20100212 22:21:54< boucman> Crab_: yes, you mentionned it...
20100212 22:23:04< Crab_> so, I was looking for some beautiful animation effect to demo it :)
20100212 22:23:53< boucman> Crab_: hehe
20100212 22:24:03< Crab_> hence the need for fireworks :)
20100212 22:24:09< boucman> I usually trigger an attack anim, since all units have it
20100212 22:24:46< fendrin> boucman: If I get it right, that scene graph can be used to connect the hp bar for examble as a node in the graph connected to the node that represents the unit. If the unit moves that hp bar is taken with it without the need to code anything.
20100212 22:25:49< boucman> fendrin: yes, this would probably mean getting rid  of a good part of the animation/drawing engine
20100212 22:25:57< boucman> but we would do it with OGL anyway
20100212 22:26:14< Crab_> boucman: the 'special action' can be a ranged attack (e.g. imagine an ai leader casting a spell on an enemy several screens away - and other things which are doable in WML for human sides, but impossible for ai to use atm), so it's hard to do 'simulate a normal attack' route.
20100212 22:27:09< boucman> hmm
20100212 22:27:30< boucman> check the "silly dance" in the test scenario, it should give you ideas
20100212 22:27:36< Crab_> boucman: thanks
20100212 22:29:24< fendrin> boucman: So the decision for pure opengl without another layer in between is through and there is no point for me to investigate clutter any further?
20100212 22:30:02< boucman> fendrin: that's not what I meant
20100212 22:30:28< boucman> it's more that I'm not proactive on that particular front, so i'm not the right one to ask
20100212 22:31:01< boucman> I havn't looked at the doc or anything, yes it could make things much easier esp in the anim department, but I have no knowledge of what we need
20100212 22:31:09< boucman> you should ask Sirp about that I guess
20100212 22:31:39< Sirp> ask me about what? whether we're using pure opengl or another layer between?
20100212 22:33:36< boucman> Sirp: basically, yes :)
20100212 22:34:00< fendrin> Sirp: Someone from the cairo irc pointed me to http://www.clutter-project.org/ after I described to them what we are looking for. (Not that we are looking for a tool like clutter but what our needs are). I must say, some of the feature that clutter offers may suit us well.
20100212 22:34:25< Sirp> I just haven't heard any compelling reasons for not using opengl directly. The reasons I've heard are (1) that we want a non-opengl render path; and (2) that opengl is somehow not suited to 2D graphics programming.
20100212 22:35:22< boucman> Sirp: the argument I heard that raw OGL is so complicated we would have to do our own middle layer to make it usable
20100212 22:35:25< Sirp> fendrin: trying to compile it now.
20100212 22:35:30< boucman> but I have no first hand knowledge of OGL
20100212 22:36:01< Sirp> boucman: I disagree with that, especially if the library proposed to wrap it is a C library anyway
20100212 22:36:27< Sirp> OpenGL actually has a rather nice API
20100212 22:36:34< Sirp> sure we'd want to wrap it with C++ idioms, etc.
20100212 22:36:45< boucman> the other argument I heard was that OGL was very different of EGL (or whatever the open gl on mobile platform is) and that having code work on both is #ifdef hell
20100212 22:36:46< silene> i have been using clutter (wrt to gnome-shell), it's really nice; in particular it completely takes care of animation; but that's not a dependency i would been fond of having in wesnoth
20100212 22:37:09< boucman> Sirp: just repeating, I personally don't really care
20100212 22:37:55< Sirp> boucman: OpenGL ES. And that's what we'd target actually, OpenGL ES, because that works efficiently on the most platforms.
20100212 22:38:21< boucman> k
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20100212 22:39:38< Sirp> fendrin: so what is the perceived advantage of clutter? Just that it provides a nicer API than opengl?
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20100212 22:40:33< fendrin> Sirp: It sounds very easy. There is pango support for our images. We can easily read .png into textures and there is that scene-graph feature. The scene graph is what I am realy interrested in.
20100212 22:40:49< fendrin> Pango support for our labels I meant
20100212 22:41:03< silene> yes, the scene graph is the only point of using clutter (and clutter's scene graph is really good)
20100212 22:41:41< fendrin> silene: mordante was more excited about the pango support :-)
20100212 22:42:22< silene> fendrin: we already have pango support, so it's hardly a good reason for switching to clutter
20100212 22:42:33< Sirp> what do we mean by a scene graph?
20100212 22:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 64 bugs, 246 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100212 22:43:23< freim> Sirp: "he scene graph is a structure that arranges the logical and often (but not necessarily) spatial representation of a graphical scene"
20100212 22:43:26< fendrin> Sirp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_graph. They are more and more common in game development.
20100212 22:43:33< freim> The*
20100212 22:43:40< freim> same source :)
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20100212 22:45:10< fendrin> Sirp: I have pointed out a concrete use case in Wesnoth for the scene graph some minutes age when addressing boucman.
20100212 22:45:12< Ivanovic> re
20100212 22:45:24< Ivanovic> boucman: same subsection in the forums as the one from 2008
20100212 22:45:26< Sirp> fendrin: okay, I will read the log.
20100212 22:45:55< ilor> silene: mind taking a look at r41171?
20100212 22:45:57< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: (since you know some spanish): http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=569609
20100212 22:45:59< Ivanovic> Rhonda: done!
20100212 22:48:25< silene> ilor: that's fine, but i would have rather fixed the broken parser rather than modifying the printer to accomodate it
20100212 22:49:02< ilor> silene: was much faster this way though
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20100212 22:50:13< Ivanovic> ilor: my main question is: does clutter base on opengl es?
20100212 22:50:22< Ivanovic> s/ilor/fendrin
20100212 22:50:37< Ivanovic> fendrin: the matter is: opengl es should run nicely on "all" opengl able platforms
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20100212 22:50:49< silene> Ivanovic: yes, clutter can use opengl es
20100212 22:50:52< Ivanovic> plain opengl might create problems on mobile devices that explicitly have opengles
20100212 22:51:03< fendrin> "Clutter uses OpenGL (and optionally OpenGL|ES for use on Mobile and embedded platforms)"
20100212 22:51:29< Ivanovic> esr: that is if shadowmaster is not available atm, maybe you can check this one in current trunk: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=569609
20100212 22:52:07< Ivanovic> esr: afterwards tell rhonda either a "will be fixed in 1.7.14", "don't care at all, no idea" or "was already fixed ages ago, at least not valid in 1.7.13+svn anymore"
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20100212 22:54:00 * fendrin also would like to suggest to have some perspective switch feature along with the opengl port.
20100212 22:55:04 * stikonas does not understand how this is possible without redrawing all sprites and tiles.
20100212 22:58:58< fendrin> stikonas: A map is desplayed by default with it's west to the left and east to the right. But this can be switched without any problems. The units and images are drawed like before. This is already doable by heavy wml. 
20100212 22:59:26< boucman> fendrin: why would we want to do that ?
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20100212 23:00:12< fendrin> boucman: I realy do enjoy and use for my advantige to see a problem form different perspectives. In strategy games where this feature is available I use it all the time.
20100212 23:00:24< boucman> :)
20100212 23:00:58< Ivanovic> the switch can already be done in wml!!!
20100212 23:01:00< Ivanovic> ;)
20100212 23:01:11< Ivanovic> since that is all you would get anyway
20100212 23:01:21< Ivanovic> you can only switch in 90° steps
20100212 23:01:59< Ivanovic> you would have to switch the map (should be possible using some lua prog), switch all events (possible when coding with some variable/macro that notes the current oriention)
20100212 23:02:09< Ivanovic> this feature is nothing you get for free by switching to opengl
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20100212 23:02:48< Ivanovic> of course you would never see the units from the side and you would not see them from the back either
20100212 23:03:13< fendrin> Ivanovic: It is something tha can be get for free when switching to a scene graph based system like clutter offers.
20100212 23:03:15< Ivanovic> so basically what you rotate is the map, which you can already do by moving around the tiles
20100212 23:03:33< silene> Ivanovic: in fact, you do get it for free, it's just a matter of setting the orientation (though i don't see much point in seeing units upside down)
20100212 23:04:38< Sirp> fendrin: so I think that having support for a scene graph is nice, but OpenGL's model already does this kind of thing quite nicely. I mean you would have drawing the unit and its hitpoints in the same place, and you would call glTranslate before calling them, and both are translated.
20100212 23:04:51< loonycyborg> Sirp: My experience with opengl tells me that it needs an abstraction layer both for 2D and 3D stuff :P
20100212 23:05:26< loonycyborg> Its stateful design can cause much confusion for unsuspecting people..
20100212 23:05:27< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: the question is: how much do we gain by using an existing abstraction layer that probably also does lots of stuff we don't want/need
20100212 23:05:56< loonycyborg> I was gravitating towards cairo-gl since we already depend on cairo.
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20100212 23:06:29< silene> Sirp: you are missing the point of clutter's scene graph; that's sure that if you are only displaying static images, then you could directly do it in opengl; but clutter also takes of animation: you describe paths, graphical effects, and so on; you get events when animations are finished, etc
20100212 23:06:51< fendrin> loonycyborg: I asked the cairo irc about the issue. They pointed me to clutter for the matter.
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20100212 23:07:26< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: pango brought us many things we don't need much, cairo among them.
20100212 23:07:50< Ivanovic> :)
20100212 23:07:51< loonycyborg> Moving all graphics to it would be a chance to use it fully.
20100212 23:09:18< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: what about opengl es support at cairo-gl?
20100212 23:10:26< loonycyborg> No idea about it. Though it's basically opengl subset afaik, so you probably only need to do some #include magic to use it.
20100212 23:10:55< Ivanovic> yes, it is a subset of opengl that is in version 2.0 rather close to plain opengl 3.0
20100212 23:12:47< loonycyborg> Sirp: Does frogatto support openGL ES?
20100212 23:13:03< Ivanovic> what frogatto uses *is* opengl es
20100212 23:14:17< Sirp> loonycyborg: yes, that's what it uses.
20100212 23:14:53< loonycyborg> Looks like it's using #include <GL/gl.h> etc.
20100212 23:16:29< Ivanovic> what matters are the functions used
20100212 23:19:30< Sirp> with regards to what framework Wesnoth uses for OpenGL, it will probably depend on who "signs up" as the serious developers to actually do the work, and what they are familiar/comfortable with and want to use
20100212 23:21:57< fendrin> Sirp: I like to participate. But that is not dependent on which tool/library is used.
20100212 23:23:59< Sirp> fendrin: right, the dependency is the other way around.
20100212 23:24:17< Sirp> fendrin: I mean we are not going to have a situation where five developers do all the work and another five developers make all the decisions. :)
20100212 23:26:55< fendrin> Sirp: I don't get your point here. Please explain in more detail what is on your mind.
20100212 23:27:52< Sirp> fendrin: I just mean that we can have lots of discussion over what is best to use (and that discussion is good to have...) however ultimately the best thing to use is what the people who implement it are most skilled with.
20100212 23:29:02< loonycyborg> Or are willing to gain skills in :P
20100212 23:29:52< ilor> night all
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20100212 23:30:04< fendrin> Sirp: Ah. My skills are more higher level object oriented or functional programming. I am not a good low level hacker and have no low level experience with opengl. But wesnoth's sourcecode teached me some c++ skills and I would take the jump into pure opengl if they participating developers like it that way. 
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20100212 23:35:54< esr> For what it's worth (and my experience un this area is minimal) I agree with loonycyborg.  I think we're going to need an abstraction layer to step down from the native 3D in OpenGL to 2D, and I'd rather see us co-opt an existing one like Cairo than roll our own.
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20100212 23:45:41< Crab_> zookeeper: ok, it looks like i've found the bug in ai controller
20100212 23:46:56< zookeeper> Crab_, cool
20100212 23:47:42< Crab_> zookeeper: WML error on my part :)
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20100212 23:53:05< Sirp> esr: OpenGL is NOT "native 3D". OpenGL is an API that is designed for and works well for both 2D and 3D graphics.
20100212 23:53:13-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100212 23:53:51< Sirp> there is nothing inherently "3D" about OpenGL; it is a general API and works very well for both 2D and 3D graphics. Considering OpenGL as a "3D API" is a common misconception, but it is definitely a misconception.
20100212 23:54:30 * esr needs to go read the OpenGL AAPI docs, I guess
20100212 23:55:15< Sirp> it's really a very nicely designed API.
20100212 23:57:41< Sirp> fendrin: I don't suppose we have any idea how fast clutter is, compared to direct OpenGL? That would probably be my top concern.
20100212 23:58:30< boucman> night all
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 13 00:00:04 2010