--- Log opened Wed Feb 17 00:00:18 2010
--- Day changed Wed Feb 17 2010
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20100217 00:00:41< Soliton> not without any context, no.
20100217 00:01:51< Soliton> there are some restrictions on clones on the server actually but it's quite lax on the trunk server.
20100217 00:02:44< fendrin> Soliton: What context do you need?
20100217 00:03:27< Soliton> the wml in question would be a good start.
20100217 00:04:22< fendrin> Soliton: That is Legend of Wesmere scenario 1. http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d4c6ca204
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20100217 00:07:25< Soliton> so the event happens same for both players but no endlevel for player 2?
20100217 00:08:36< fendrin> Soliton: Right
20100217 00:09:05< fendrin> Soliton: The result is that the host of the game is carried over to the next scenario and the second player still stays around in scenario one.
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20100217 00:09:44< Soliton> in linger mode though?
20100217 00:10:42< fendrin> Soliton: The strange thing is that there is no linger mode for both players. It isn't disabled by wml.
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20100217 00:31:12< fendrin> Soliton: YogiHH discovered that endlevel isn't considered for network. How does multiplayer scenarios handle the result of a battle? I mean that ones that aren't part of a campaign?
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20100217 00:37:11< YogiHH> fendrin: woot, i added a check for end_level in network turns and Landar made it to the next scenario :)
20100217 00:37:39< fendrin> YogiHH: What exactly is the check?
20100217 00:37:55< YogiHH> fendrin: calling check_end_level()
20100217 00:38:09< fendrin> Nicely. A one liner.
20100217 00:38:17< YogiHH> yup
20100217 00:38:48 * fendrin wonders why that was never an issue for multiplayer single scenario designers.
20100217 00:39:31< shadowmaster> because the multiplayer code comes from other world
20100217 00:40:35< YogiHH> fendrin: because eventually someone will end his turn and it will be your turn and then the check for end_level takes place, i guess
20100217 00:40:39< fendrin> shadowmaster: But we are talking about the same world here. Multiplayer single scenarios don't seem to check for endlevel. How do they code the outcomming of the scenario?
20100217 00:41:21< YogiHH> fendrin: the mp campaign simply doesn't end the turn, so it never comes to your turn if p1 enters the next scenario
20100217 00:41:35< fendrin> YogiHH: But since Kalenz left before his turn ended that never happened?
20100217 00:41:44< YogiHH> yes
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20100217 00:42:02< fendrin> Nice bug. Should get an award for it's design.
20100217 00:42:24< YogiHH> fendrin: one more evidence that mp was never designed for campaigns ;)
20100217 00:43:27< fendrin> YogiHH: Can you commit your fix? I would like to make many more tests...
20100217 00:43:42< YogiHH> yes, just a minute
20100217 00:46:45< fendrin> YogiHH: Did the new carryover the save_id's team color feature work for you during the tests?
20100217 00:47:11< YogiHH> fendrin: nope, it did work but now it seems to be broken again
20100217 00:48:44< YogiHH> fendrin: btw, i am not sure if i broke single player campaigns :)
20100217 00:49:07< fendrin> YogiHH: I will test LoW right after the compile of your comit finished.
20100217 00:50:08< fendrin> YogiHH: If LoW is working in Multiplayer mode like expected to the end some day it will be the right time to get rid of single player mode.
20100217 00:50:23< YogiHH> ugh
20100217 00:54:41< CIA-88> jhinrichs * r41265 /trunk/src/ (4 files): 
20100217 00:54:41< CIA-88> Fixes bug #15382 (Player doesn't get transported to the next scenario). I made
20100217 00:54:41< CIA-88> this one work, but i haven't checked for recall lists, gold and other carryover
20100217 00:54:41< CIA-88> information. If things go real bad, single player campaigns might be broken. If
20100217 00:54:41< CIA-88> this commit causes more trouble than it fixes, feel free to revert it again.
20100217 00:54:43< YogiHH> fendrin: there you go
20100217 00:56:18< fendrin> YogiHH: Thank you.
20100217 00:56:33< YogiHH> fendrin: i am off for tonight, will probably be back tomorrow
20100217 00:56:47< fendrin> YogiHH: Good night. :-)
20100217 00:56:49< YogiHH> night everyone
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20100217 02:08:21< Espreon> Uh, why isn't "new_fog_clearer" cleared by one of the relevant macros?
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20100217 04:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 76 bugs, 247 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100217 05:27:18< CIA-88> fendrin * r41266 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (9 files in 3 dirs): 
20100217 05:27:18< CIA-88> LoW: Balancing between Kalenz and Landar.
20100217 05:27:18< CIA-88> Added controller=ai to every ai side since it is not the default in multiplayer
20100217 05:27:18< CIA-88> and the sides are missing if it's not the first scenario if the campaign.
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20100217 07:28:02< CIA-88> fendrin * r41267 /trunk/data/ (13 files in 3 dirs): Added a lint-low option for wmllint and made more scenarios being available in multiplayer.
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20100217 07:47:20< YogiHH> hello
20100217 07:47:34< Sirp> hi YogiHH 
20100217 07:47:43< YogiHH> fendrin: woot, did you stay up the whole night? :)
20100217 07:48:02< fendrin> YogiHH: no not all of it.
20100217 07:48:22< fendrin> YogiHH: can you have a look at the bug reports assigned to you?
20100217 07:48:38< YogiHH> fendrin: not yet, i need to go to work in 10 minutes
20100217 07:48:52< YogiHH> i might be able to do it tonight
20100217 07:49:04< YogiHH> Sirp: the money arrived, thanks :)
20100217 07:49:29< fendrin> YogiHH: I will add more comments for you to the bug reports then.
20100217 07:49:38< Sirp> YogiHH: excellent. :)
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20100217 10:24:47< Ivanovic> moin
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20100217 12:08:47< CIA-88> ivanovic * r41268 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-utbs/pl.po): 
20100217 12:08:47< CIA-88> updated Polish translation
20100217 12:08:47< CIA-88> changelog cleanups
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20100217 12:09:38< Ivanovic> afk for some hours, cu
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20100217 13:59:52< CIA-88> jetryl * r41269 /trunk/data/core/ (4 files in 2 dirs): New leading animation for the goblin rouser.
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20100217 16:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 76 bugs, 248 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100217 16:57:12< fendrin> zookeeper: Sceptre of Fire, have you cleaned the borders after their introducion here? There are some maps that look like they have accidential exits.
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20100217 17:02:47< CIA-88> fendrin * r41270 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (10 files in 2 dirs): LoW: Redone the campaign's gold setup.
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20100217 17:11:34< zookeeper> fendrin, probably not
20100217 17:12:29< fendrin> zookeeper: I would clean them up but I am not sure If I don't fix an underground level entrance that realy should be there. But I can give it a try and you can review the result.
20100217 17:19:28< zookeeper> well, i can do it too. which scenarios?
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20100217 17:26:28< fendrin> zookeeper: the first one.
20100217 17:27:28< fendrin> zookeeper: That is the first underground one, 2_Closing_the_Gates.map
20100217 17:28:51< fendrin> zookeeper: All the maps that are based around the dwarven throne room.
20100217 17:29:44< fendrin> zookeeper: caverns of flame.
20100217 17:31:05< fendrin> zookeeper: Do you want me to base all scenarios that use the dwarven throne room to use the same map with map overlays?
20100217 17:35:08< Ivanovic> re
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20100217 17:51:58< AI0867_> boucman: there is a graphics glitch when you recall a merman warrior and then hit undo: the top of the 'ball' and the tip of his trident remain in the surrounding hexes
20100217 17:52:03< AI0867_> just checking if you're aware of this
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20100217 17:59:32< zookeeper> fendrin, eh, don't worry, i'll take care of them myself
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20100217 18:31:22< crimson_penguin> does Wesnoth require Boost >37 now?
20100217 18:32:58< Ivanovic> uhm, no
20100217 18:34:05< Ivanovic> it should still be >=1.35.0
20100217 18:36:12< crimson_penguin> nevermind
20100217 18:36:16< crimson_penguin> thanks
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20100217 18:42:56< [Relic]> Hello :)
20100217 18:43:04< crimson_penguin> hi
20100217 18:43:12< [Relic]> :)
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20100217 19:36:45< CIA-88> zookeeper * r41271 /trunk/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/maps/ (4 files): Tweaks to a few map borders.
20100217 19:36:48< zookeeper> fendrin, done...IMO the rest, like in the second scenario, are ok and make sense.
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20100217 19:50:04< CIA-88> boucman * r41272 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): apparently forgot to commit bugfix for bug 15366
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20100217 20:09:16< fendrin> zookeeper: you may also consider to introduce some abyss terrein if no flying units are around.
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20100217 20:34:51< CIA-88> crab * r41273 /trunk/data/ai/ (dev/lua_ai.cfg lua/ lua/ai.lua lua/simple_ai.lua): extracted lua ai code into external .lua files
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20100217 20:51:01< Crab_> fendrin: I see that you've found quite a number of MP-campaign-related bugs :))
20100217 20:51:56< fendrin> Crab_: Yes, and I also assigned an error warning in LoW scenario2 to you.  
20100217 20:52:27< Crab_> fendrin: yes, regarding the "[modify_ai] issue - I expect that Olurf will still behave ok, those warnings are not mp-specific, and are caused by the way I 'reset' the ai to initial state. I'll guess that I'll add a  'ignore warnings' attribute to modify_ai
20100217 20:53:02< Crab_> fendrin: I'm just being lazy and don't check if Olurf has got goals like 'kill elves' - I just try to remove that goal.
20100217 20:53:41< fendrin> Crab_: In general we should solve most of that warning the game produces or remove them being outputed. The users won't report them if they come in masses.
20100217 20:53:53< Crab_> yes, I agree
20100217 20:56:43< CIA-88> fendrin * r41274 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (13 files in 2 dirs): LoW: Lot's of multiplayer port related stuff.
20100217 21:00:21-!- Mythological [Mythologic@77.28.120.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 21:03:14< sebas_> Hello I need help to compile wesnoth on mac os x, I have this error:
20100217 21:03:19< sebas_> powerpc-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files 
20100217 21:03:45< sebas_>     cd "/Users/Sebastian/wesnoth/Mac Compile Stuff"     /Developer/usr/bin/gcc-4.0 -x objective-c-header -arch ppc -fmessage-length=0 -pipe -Wno-trigraphs -fpascal-strings -fasm-blocks -Os -mdynamic-no-pic -Wreturn-type -Wunused-variable -DLOCALEDIR="translations" -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk -mtune=G4 -fvisibility=hidden -mmacosx-version-min=10.4 -gdwarf-2 "-I/Users/Sebastian/wesnoth/Mac Compile Stuff/build/Wesno
20100217 21:04:36< Crab_> sebas_: use a pastebin, such as http://wesnoth.pastebin.com - otherwise only the first part of your message is seen.
20100217 21:07:46< sebas_> powerpc-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: /Users/Sebastian/wesnoth/Mac Compile Stuff/Wesnoth_Prefix.pch: No such file or directory
20100217 21:08:13< sebas_> I downloaded mac compile stuff, and that file was not there
20100217 21:08:27< sebas_> should I search for it and paste it on mac compile stuff?
20100217 21:09:53-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 21:10:03< mordante> servus
20100217 21:10:22< Sirp> hi mordante 
20100217 21:10:33< mordante> hi Sirp 
20100217 21:11:36< sebas_> well I did what i said, it seems to be working now :)
20100217 21:11:49< Crab_> :)
20100217 21:14:40-!- Noyga [~noyga@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Quitte"]
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20100217 21:36:51< boucman> thespaceinvader: around ?
20100217 21:36:59< thespaceinvader> boucman: indeed
20100217 21:37:06< thespaceinvader> what's up?
20100217 21:37:36< boucman> we are missing a couple of frames in the forest area, and my guess is that it could be a relatively easy job for a begginner artist
20100217 21:38:25< boucman> basically, I need a tile guarenteed to not overlap each of the neighbouring hexes and combination thereof
20100217 21:38:35< mordante> thespaceinvader, nice to see the artwork for the Kalifa won't be a blocker 
20100217 21:38:53 * boucman agrees with mordante
20100217 21:39:03< thespaceinvader> boucman: which forest area do you mean?
20100217 21:39:36< boucman> see https://gna.org/bugs/?15396
20100217 21:39:50< thespaceinvader> mordante: thanks - there will probably need to be some revisions, but the frames I've made to date (working from some nice bases provided by an unfortunately departed artist) are looking good so far
20100217 21:39:52< boucman> we don't have real castle to forest transitions, and these would be usefull
20100217 21:40:43< mordante> thespaceinvader, of course but it's nice that when the Kalifa gets in the art doesn't look completely bad
20100217 21:40:47< thespaceinvader> boucman: terrain is by no means my speciality, and i'd certainly give that a low priority until I have some more time on my hands
20100217 21:41:21< mordante> the quality of the art has risen so much, that it seems to get harder to get new things in and not having it looking out of place
20100217 21:41:26< boucman> thespaceinvader: no, my (non-artist) guess is that's it's a matter of stamping a couple of trees from the existing one
20100217 21:41:34< boucman> so it could be comissioned on the forum
20100217 21:41:44< thespaceinvader> i certainly wouldn't call it a blocker - that's probably accurate to be honest
20100217 21:41:58< thespaceinvader> but terrain in general is fairly deep magic for me, i simply don't know the system
20100217 21:42:12< boucman> thespaceinvader: that's why i'm here :)
20100217 21:42:22< thespaceinvader> yep, that could certainly be requested on the forum boucman you have my blessing to go ahead and do that
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20100217 21:42:46< thespaceinvader> mordante: so true - I suspect that portraits will be more of a struggle than sprites
20100217 21:43:07< thespaceinvader> and we will need those if we ever want the kalifa to get decent campaigns
20100217 21:43:11-!- DesertPanther__ [~Khalid@41.234.232.128] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 21:43:17< thespaceinvader> heck, the drake ones still need my tender mercies
20100217 21:43:18< thespaceinvader> sigh
20100217 21:43:21< thespaceinvader> i want time...
20100217 21:43:26 * mordante too
20100217 21:43:58< mordante> yes the portrait art quality went even more up
20100217 21:44:47< boucman> thespaceinvader: ok, will do
20100217 21:45:22< thespaceinvader> mm, kitty and bob set a very high bar for the rest of us mere mortals
20100217 21:45:36< thespaceinvader> i just about manage to creep over it when i have lots of time to devote
20100217 21:47:24-!- dtiger__ [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-69-237.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100217 22:01:43< mordante> Sirp, regarding OGL, what would be the best way to draw text?
20100217 22:04:24< boucman> mordante: that would make 15840 frames total...
20100217 22:04:28< boucman> not very realistic
20100217 22:05:41< CIA-88> mordante * r41275 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/tree_view_node.cpp: 
20100217 22:05:41< CIA-88> Fix some redraw glitches.
20100217 22:05:41< CIA-88> When the list of players is reduced make sure the dirty area no longer
20100217 22:05:41< CIA-88> used gets cleared as well.
20100217 22:05:46< mordante> boucman, ?
20100217 22:06:03< boucman> mordante: sorry, wrong person
20100217 22:06:06< boucman> thespaceinvader: see above
20100217 22:06:11< boucman> :P
20100217 22:06:40< thespaceinvader> 15840 frames total? what would?
20100217 22:06:54< mordante> boucman,  ah ok
20100217 22:07:16< boucman> having the forest transitions I want...
20100217 22:09:25< thespaceinvader> ah right
20100217 22:09:29< thespaceinvader> that sounds a little excessive
20100217 22:10:22< boucman> yeah :/
20100217 22:11:08< fendrin> boucman: do you have a branch for the water? I realy can't wait to see how it is ingame.
20100217 22:11:52< boucman> fendrin: no, not at this point, but I could do that if someone handholds me into doing it...
20100217 22:14:16< fendrin> boucman: Sure, how can I assist you?
20100217 22:14:36< boucman> fendrin: give me the commands to run, i'm a very basic svn user :)
20100217 22:15:40< fendrin> boucman:  The basic syntax is: svn cp branchurl_source branchurl_target
20100217 22:16:28< boucman> my source would be trunk and my target would be water_animation, I guess...
20100217 22:17:53< fendrin> boucman: No, both of that brachurl locations are at the svn server inside the repository. That will just create a fork from trunk that equals it. 
20100217 22:18:38-!- Ken_Oh [~briang@static-71-178-174-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100217 22:18:51< boucman> svn cp svn+ssh://boucman@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk  svn+ssh://boucman@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/water_animation
20100217 22:18:54< boucman> is that it ?
20100217 22:19:42< fendrin> svn cp svn+ssh://boucman@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk  svn+ssh://boucman@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/water_animation
20100217 22:20:09< fendrin> there is an extra branches directery inbetween in diffference from what you suggested.
20100217 22:20:26< boucman> ok, running it
20100217 22:20:42< fendrin> boucman: The next step would be to do a local copy of your trunk checkout.
20100217 22:21:21< CIA-88> boucman * r41276 /branches/water_animation/: creating a new branch for water animations
20100217 22:21:34< fendrin> boucman: For example: cp -r /home/fabi/wesnoth_develop/trunk /home/fabi/wesnoth_develop/water_animations
20100217 22:21:48< boucman> running
20100217 22:22:33< fendrin> After that copy finished go into water_animations and do a "svn switch svn+ssh://boucman@svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/water_animation"
20100217 22:23:21< fendrin> That should have given you a branch that equals current trunk but points to the new location in the repository. Can be used as normal now.
20100217 22:24:29< boucman> ok, thx
20100217 22:28:02< teaser> rnd-q: is the rng-measure (something like 'avoid') that Sirp made for megane(?) still around?
20100217 22:34:38-!- Sirp [~user@pool-71-164-166-178.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20100217 22:40:11-!- Salwan [~chatzilla@41.153.32.199] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 22:40:18< Salwan> Hi All
20100217 22:42:24< mordante> hi Salwan 
20100217 22:42:52< Salwan> hey mordante :)
20100217 22:43:16< CIA-88> boucman * r41277 /branches/water_animation/data/ (153 files in 5 dirs): add water animations in their current stage (which is still very primitive)
20100217 22:43:25< boucman> fendrin: tell me if it works...
20100217 22:43:35< Salwan> Is yugihh the only dev that uses VS?
20100217 22:43:56< Salwan> does he even use VS, I only know he's on windows
20100217 22:44:21< Crab_> Salwan: yes, he uses MSVC Express
20100217 22:44:36< mordante> Salwan, his nick is YogiHH and ilor also uses MSVC
20100217 22:44:56< CIA-88> boucman * r41278 /branches/water_animation/data/tools/castle-cutter/mk-all-castles.sh: revert accidental commit
20100217 22:45:11< Salwan> oh, good, since ilor is here,..
20100217 22:45:12-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 22:45:15< Salwan> I've been trying to compile Wesnoth using VS2008, took me hours to get all the dependencies right, and I resolved all compiling problems, I currently have a bunch of Linking errors that look like this:
20100217 22:45:30< ilor> I haven't actually built wesnoth with msvc for quite a while... to much of an effort and scons works better anyway
20100217 22:47:13< Salwan> settings.obj : error LNK2019: unresolved external symbol "public: __thiscall gui2::tbutton_definition::tbutton_definition(class config const &)" ...etc
20100217 22:47:37< Salwan> it seems to be happen to every explicit constructor from what I gathered
20100217 22:47:52< Salwan> only to gui2 namespace
20100217 22:48:33< mordante> Salwan, can you pastebin the compiler output/
20100217 22:48:35< mordante> ?*
20100217 22:50:32-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100217 22:50:55< Salwan> mordante: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m3cebdb4e
20100217 22:54:02< mordante> hmm odd and I assume those files are compiled?
20100217 22:54:36-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 22:55:30< Salwan> I think so, it only seems to object to the constructor
20100217 22:55:52-!- shadowm_laptop [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 22:56:25< CIA-88> mordante * r41279 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/listbox.cpp: 
20100217 22:56:25< CIA-88> Fix some redraw glitches.
20100217 22:56:25< CIA-88> The same as r41275 but for the listbox.
20100217 22:57:46< shadowmaster> 4/37
20100217 22:57:52< mordante> ilor, ^ This fixes the 1 game left glitch
20100217 23:00:00< fendrin> boucman: It is working but I can't see a difference. 
20100217 23:00:19< Salwan> I'm going to take a look at scons, haven't heard of it before
20100217 23:00:44< Salwan> if I couldn't get VS2008 to spit binaries, my next choice would be CodeBlocks, but I don't give up easily :)
20100217 23:01:55< boucman> fendrin: it should affect only oceans and only grass-to-water north, norh+north-east and north+northwest
20100217 23:02:58< mordante> Salwan, ok else maybe ask YogiHH when he's online, might be he has some local modifications to the project file
20100217 23:03:53< Salwan> mordante: thanks, I'll wait for him to come around
20100217 23:04:37-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100217 23:04:53< fendrin> boucman: Looks very organic. Nice.
20100217 23:06:49< boucman> :)
20100217 23:07:23< shadowmaster> ... will I have to create another workdir ? ohhhh
20100217 23:08:39< Soliton> teaser: accuracy? yes.
20100217 23:09:35< mordante> I'm off night
20100217 23:09:55-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100217 23:10:31< teaser> soliton, yes, thanks (wasn't sure since it was announced in a weirdish fashion)
20100217 23:12:13-!- Sirp [~user@wesnoth/developer/dave] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 23:15:49< shadowmaster> esr: "Lord of continuity", now?
20100217 23:15:56-!- DesertPanther_ [~Khalid@41.234.233.63] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100217 23:17:39< esr> shadowmaster: Actually, I usuall use "Mr. Continuity Guy". I was being just a touch ironic there.  
20100217 23:17:52< esr> As I suspect you could tell...
20100217 23:18:19-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20100217 23:18:25 * esr looks around for another Lord of Contunuity
20100217 23:18:32< shadowmaster> considering that many of us have "Lord of BLAH" as forum titles
20100217 23:18:48 * Espreon is proud of his title.
20100217 23:18:57-!- DesertPanther__ [~Khalid@41.234.232.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100217 23:20:50< esr> I just used "Mr. Continuity Guy" in a devlist email.  You're not from the U.S., so it may escape you that this is a bit self-mocking on my part.  It's based on a series of funny beer commercials, the "Real American Hero: ones.
20100217 23:22:00< Espreon> It escaped me, and I am from the U.S..
20100217 23:22:11< esr> This may explain it: http://budlight.whipnet.com/
20100217 23:22:13< Espreon> Then again, I do not care much about popular culture.
20100217 23:22:19< shadowmaster> Espreon: really, now?
20100217 23:22:28< thespaceinvader> esr: if you're after a word about the kalifa, i have some time to spare
20100217 23:22:44< thespaceinvader> not that i'm likely to be able to answer much, but who knows
20100217 23:22:45< Espreon> shadowmaster: Well, non-Internets popular culture.
20100217 23:23:18< esr> thespaceinvader: Yeah, sure. I got no pronblem with the content, but the name has to change.  What are they like? 
20100217 23:24:09< thespaceinvader> as far as i can work out, more or less generically arabic/early muslim
20100217 23:24:26< esr> Yeah, that's what I figured.
20100217 23:24:41< thespaceinvader> that's been my main artistic influence, outside of sleepwalker's pre-existing level 1 base frames
20100217 23:24:54< thespaceinvader> although i've drawn parts from other places too
20100217 23:25:35< thespaceinvader> i don't really know much in terms of storyline, but i think i recall noy saying something about ?the abbassid caliphate? or something along those lines being a major influence on them
20100217 23:25:38< boucman> they look more persian than arabic to me, but i'm not sure this kind of difference really matter in the wesnoth world
20100217 23:25:48< thespaceinvader> yeah, probably
20100217 23:25:57< thespaceinvader> generically middle eastern would probably be a better term
20100217 23:26:01< Salwan> thespaceinvader: if you want to ask about arabic/muslim culture, I may be able to help you
20100217 23:26:11< thespaceinvader> i've not used masses of reference, i must say
20100217 23:26:27< thespaceinvader> Salwan: thanks for the offer, but like i say, i'm standing fairly well off on story things
20100217 23:27:02< esr> Salwan: I was thinking of suggesting we rename them the Naasiri, from the Arabic word for "defender".
20100217 23:27:33< thespaceinvader> esr: with respect to names, might I suggest you raise some suggestions in the m/l?
20100217 23:27:46< esr> Yeah, I'll do that.
20100217 23:27:55< thespaceinvader> there might well be some need to rename a number of the units, too
20100217 23:28:11< esr> Where can I find a unit tree?
20100217 23:28:12< thespaceinvader> i seem to recall zookeeper expressing concerns that they weren;t generic enough
20100217 23:28:48< thespaceinvader> the only vaguely up-to-date one is http://www.wesnoth.org/units/1.6/C/era_balanced_ee.html there, but there are some major changes going to be enacted to do with balancing
20100217 23:28:53< fendrin> esr: There are female drake names defined some where. We must make sure that they are not assign to recruited drakes anymore.
20100217 23:28:55< Salwan> esr: I don't know that word "Naasiri"
20100217 23:28:55< loonycyborg> Salwan: Be sure to direct any scons-related questions to me.
20100217 23:29:05< thespaceinvader> the rami line is being replaced with the naffatun and an as-yet unnamed level 2
20100217 23:29:19< esr> Another possiblity is "Ghazeen", from "ghazi".
20100217 23:29:22< thespaceinvader> and a number of spears have been removed
20100217 23:29:26< Salwan> esr: it could be of persian origin?
20100217 23:29:39< DesertPanther_> Ghazi means conquerer
20100217 23:29:42< thespaceinvader> Ghazi is used as the name of one of the infantry lines already esr ;)
20100217 23:29:44< Salwan> esr: yep, I know "Ghazeen" :)
20100217 23:30:13< esr> Salwan: The word is Naasir, and I don't know what dialect it's from.  Might well be Persion in origin, which would be no bad thing here.
20100217 23:30:18< thespaceinvader> art thread is here by the way: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23846
20100217 23:30:27< thespaceinvader> i'll add it to the m/l, too
20100217 23:30:36< Salwan> esr: "Ghozat" means conquerers, like the people who do the ... well conquering :)
20100217 23:31:16< Salwan> loonycyborg: thanks, I'll keep you in mind ;)
20100217 23:31:48< esr> Salwan: "Ghozat" is a good idea.  I like it.
20100217 23:32:13< thespaceinvader> my suspicion on faction names, by the way, is that it was intended to evoke a word for their equivalent of king, or whatever
20100217 23:32:29< happygrue> esr:  the Kalifa were originally called the "Saracens", for what that is worth.
20100217 23:32:31< thespaceinvader> i understand caliph is such a word
20100217 23:32:42< esr> Yes, "Kalifa" is the Arabic oroginal of "caliph".
20100217 23:33:11< esr> But that's why it doesn'r work.  It would be like calling the Wesnothians  the "Kings".
20100217 23:33:37< thespaceinvader> mm, indeed
20100217 23:33:43< Salwan> Kalifa could be a name, or the title of the ruler, it's exact meaning is the one who inherits things
20100217 23:33:51< DesertPanther_> exactly
20100217 23:34:05< esr> Ghozat, on the other hand, is completeky appropriate.
20100217 23:34:18< fendrin> Kalifatians?
20100217 23:34:26< thespaceinvader> i have to say i kind of like the name though =) I don't know how attached noy is to it, however, so I'd avoid making any decisions until he's had some input
20100217 23:34:55< thespaceinvader> the faction is more or less his baby, after all
20100217 23:35:23< thespaceinvader> fendrin: if the name were to be any derivative of caliph/kalif, i think kalifa works best
20100217 23:35:30< fendrin> From a german point of few the name seems valid.
20100217 23:35:42< thespaceinvader> changing the suffix would not alleviate the main issue
20100217 23:36:11< fendrin> We call also the country in which the Kalif rules the Kalifat. 
20100217 23:36:38< shadowmaster> "point of few" ;)
20100217 23:36:52< fendrin> :-)
20100217 23:37:17< Salwan> fendrin: is it valid to call the country ruled by a king, the "kingiat"?
20100217 23:37:28< DesertPanther_> lol
20100217 23:37:50< esr> Actually, I'd prefer to get entirely awaty from actual Arabic names if possible.  That ties them to Earth history pretty hard.
20100217 23:38:23< boucman> Salwan: we call them kingdoms :P
20100217 23:38:31< esr> But if we're going to stick with Arabic unit names, Ghozat works for the ethnonym.
20100217 23:38:42< Salwan> boucman: then it may be valid :D
20100217 23:39:03< esr> Salwan: I'm guessing from your nanme and contributions that you speak Arabic?
20100217 23:39:16< Salwan> esr: guilty as charged
20100217 23:39:25< Salwan> my mother tongue
20100217 23:39:28< esr> Good.
20100217 23:40:11< esr> It's nice to have a topic expert in on the dioscussion. I know a lot of rhe relevant history but don't speak the language. 
20100217 23:40:15< fendrin> Salwan: Königtum.
20100217 23:40:40< Salwan> fenderin: that's the word for Kingdom in germany?
20100217 23:40:47< fendrin> Salwan: yes
20100217 23:40:51< Salwan> ok :)
20100217 23:41:24< esr> Salwan: ...and the German word is quite recognizable to a native English speaker.
20100217 23:41:48< Salwan> yes, I could recognize it myself
20100217 23:41:52< boucman> french is royaume, for "roi"
20100217 23:42:17< Salwan> many things are similar in european languages
20100217 23:42:36< fendrin> Is royaume the origin of the english word realm?
20100217 23:43:03< boucman> that's possible, cross-channel word borowing is very common both ways
20100217 23:43:16< boucman> some words even make it back and forth :)
20100217 23:43:19< esr> fendrin: I believe it is. Through Middle English.
20100217 23:44:44< esr> Salwan: I know that "Arabic" is actually a large group of regional and class-stratified dialects.  How would you describe yours?
20100217 23:45:05< DesertPanther_> there is only one form of formal Arabic
20100217 23:45:47< DesertPanther_> but there are many "local" dialects
20100217 23:45:51< esr> There's Modern Srandard Arabic, but my understanding is that only television announcers and diplomats actually speak it :-)
20100217 23:46:05< esr> s/Standard/
20100217 23:46:12< DesertPanther_> Books, Newspapers, etc...
20100217 23:46:16< DesertPanther_> for example
20100217 23:46:18< DesertPanther_> in schools
20100217 23:46:24 * Espreon rolls his eyes at the thought of Middle English
20100217 23:46:27< DesertPanther_> children are studying in the formal Arabic
20100217 23:46:35< esr> You speak MSA?
20100217 23:46:36< Salwan> proper Arabic is only one form, the dialects are so different though sometimes it's hard for a native arabic speaker to understand them all
20100217 23:46:53-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100217 23:46:57< DesertPanther_> Salwan, but there are similarties
20100217 23:47:01< esr> Yes, I was wondering which is your native one.
20100217 23:47:04< Salwan> to the west, in Morocco for example them mix french with arabic
20100217 23:47:14< DesertPanther_> Iraqi dialect for me
20100217 23:47:16< Salwan> *they
20100217 23:47:41< Salwan> me too :)
20100217 23:47:44< DesertPanther_> :P
20100217 23:47:46< esr> Ah. OK.
20100217 23:48:11< DesertPanther_> but to think about it again, my dialect is Baghdadish, Salwan's dialect is Basrian
20100217 23:48:17< esr> Aha!
20100217 23:48:19< Espreon> Englisc (yes, "Englisc") is a fun language.®
20100217 23:48:19 * DesertPanther_ is complicating things
20100217 23:48:33< esr> That's interesting. 
20100217 23:48:44< Espreon> Right, esr?
20100217 23:48:54 * esr is an amateur linguist whi likes to know such things
20100217 23:49:03< Salwan> sometimes, I see people mix things between arabic and persian, to you it may look very similar, it isn't that similar in reality, persians have sultans for example (well historically speaking), they have their own names and languages different from Arabic
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20100217 23:49:36< Salwan> true there are some words here and there that are identical, but most languages have that
20100217 23:49:38< DesertPanther_> Salwan, but their language is affected by Arabic
20100217 23:49:56< esr> Salwan: I know.  The two languages have different patterns of sound; I can distinguish them by ear even though I don't speak either.
20100217 23:51:04< DesertPanther_> Arabic and Hebrew belong to the Semitic group of languages
20100217 23:51:22< DesertPanther_> while Persian and Kurdish are Indoaryan languages
20100217 23:51:34< esr> Whereas Persion is Indo-European and distantly related to English.
20100217 23:51:56< esr> I must go have dinner and do MMA class.
20100217 23:52:00< DesertPanther_> I am half Arabic, half Kurdish btw...
20100217 23:52:36< esr> Speak any Kurdish?
20100217 23:52:59< DesertPanther_> no but I can recognise it
20100217 23:53:46< esr> (Note: English-speaking linguisys mostly drppped "Indo-Aryan" after WWII.  The word "Aryan" has a bad reputation now.)
20100217 23:54:21< DesertPanther_> oic
20100217 23:54:41< Espreon> esr: OK, then what is the politcally correct term?
20100217 23:57:06< DesertPanther_> if you want to learn Arabic, don't pick an Egyptian to teach you ;)
20100217 23:58:00< Espreon> If you wanna learn from an Ægyptian, find one of the oppressed Copts and learn Coptic.®
20100217 23:58:24< DesertPanther_> Copts aren't oppressed
20100217 23:58:36 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100217 23:59:30< DesertPanther_> really!
20100217 23:59:52< Espreon> O...K... then...
--- Log closed Thu Feb 18 00:00:29 2010