--- Log opened Thu Feb 18 00:00:29 2010
--- Day changed Thu Feb 18 2010
20100218 00:00:29< DesertPanther_> I respect them, they are so honest people
20100218 00:00:59< Espreon> Good.
20100218 00:01:18< DesertPanther_> clashes happen sometimes
20100218 00:01:29< DesertPanther_> otherwise, they are not oppressed
20100218 00:01:59< Espreon> Meh, even if that were true, I still wouldn't go to Ægypt.
20100218 00:02:06< DesertPanther_> why?
20100218 00:02:07< fendrin> Crab_: Do you want to join another low mp testgame? I think we can continue from where we left last time.
20100218 00:03:32< Crab_> fendrin: no, I haven't got a good binary atm
20100218 00:03:51< fendrin> Crab_: :-)
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20100218 00:04:18< Espreon> DesertPanther: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship#Egypt
20100218 00:04:55< noy> I hear were discussing the kalifa?
20100218 00:05:20< noy> I don't have much time; my phone is almost out of batteries
20100218 00:05:21< DesertPanther_> Espreon, "To connect to wireless internet in a public place, such as a cybercafé, a person must give up a lot of personal information, such as a phone number or ID #, making it hard for citizens to express themselves freely." <= big lie
20100218 00:05:36< DesertPanther_> I were never asked for this when I go to a cybercafe
20100218 00:06:05< Espreon> Maybe it is outdated.
20100218 00:06:10 * Espreon shrugs.
20100218 00:06:17< DesertPanther_> I am living here since 3 years
20100218 00:06:28< DesertPanther_> nobody asked me from my passport
20100218 00:06:43< DesertPanther_> and never saw any Egyptian being asked to show his ID
20100218 00:07:06< DesertPanther_> unless in some cases where you need to enter a govermental building
20100218 00:07:11< Espreon> Well, of course.
20100218 00:08:04< noy> What's your nationality DesertPanther_ ?
20100218 00:08:10< DesertPanther_> Iraqi
20100218 00:08:18< noy> Hm
20100218 00:08:29< DesertPanther_> I am a refugee here
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20100218 00:08:58< noy> Was there an issue I needed to be here for?
20100218 00:09:22< Salwan> DesertPanther_: I thought you were a student?
20100218 00:09:34< DesertPanther_> and a refugee
20100218 00:09:36< noy> About the kalifa?
20100218 00:09:41< fendrin> noy: There was an discussion about if the name Kalifa is a good one for such a faction.
20100218 00:09:46< DesertPanther_> you were studying back in Iraq too...
20100218 00:09:49< DesertPanther_> me too
20100218 00:10:17< noy> It's not going into default so I can't see why
20100218 00:10:18< Salwan> DesertPanther_: after study, will you remain in Egypt?
20100218 00:10:29< DesertPanther_> of course not
20100218 00:10:43< DesertPanther_> I don't want to live forever here
20100218 00:10:47< Salwan> then I don't think you are a refugee :)
20100218 00:10:57< DesertPanther_> yes I am
20100218 00:11:19< fendrin> noy: I can't see either. For german ears Kalifa sounds good.
20100218 00:12:48< noy> I can't see there being an issue with it from an Islamic point of view... I've tried to be as respectful of them as possible
20100218 00:13:39< noy> It's a situation where making it more polically correct would actually make it less so
20100218 00:13:53< Salwan> noy: there is no issue, the discussion was only on a linguistic level
20100218 00:13:59< fendrin> noy: It wasn't a discussion about respect, it was more about language and words.
20100218 00:14:15< noy> Ah... That I could use
20100218 00:14:39< noy> If you could continue this discussion in an hour I'd appreciate it
20100218 00:14:44< noy> I'll be ready then
20100218 00:15:04< Salwan> preparing your textbooks and such :P
20100218 00:15:34< esr> noy: OI don't like "Kalifa" fas an ethnonym because it's an individual title.  It would be like xalling the Wesnothians "the King".
20100218 00:16:04< esr> I like Salwan's suggestion of Ghozat = "Conquerors".
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20100218 00:17:20< fendrin> esr: With a h somehere please. Shalwans would fit my taste.
20100218 00:17:42< Salwan> lol, what's a "Shalwans" ??
20100218 00:17:59< fendrin> The name of the new faction :-)
20100218 00:18:06< DesertPanther_> Salwan, probably it is you :D
20100218 00:18:44 * Salwan will be the new Kalifa :D
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20100218 00:19:09< fendrin> Salwan, DesertPanther_: What is the Sultan called in your language?
20100218 00:19:16< DesertPanther_> Sultan
20100218 00:19:17< DesertPanther_> ...
20100218 00:19:23< DesertPanther_> it is an Arabic word
20100218 00:19:41< DesertPanther_> it means "who rules"
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20100218 00:19:48< DesertPanther_> Salwan, am I right?
20100218 00:20:08< fendrin> We call the land of the Sultan "Das Sultanat".
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20100218 00:20:20< Salwan> I think it's either shared between Arabic and Persian, or is actually an Arab word like DesertPanther says
20100218 00:20:33< DesertPanther_> it is Arabic, 100%
20100218 00:20:53< DesertPanther_> Turks and Persians used it to name theirselves as leaders
20100218 00:21:24< DesertPanther_> because they couldn't use "Khalifa" name, probably...
20100218 00:22:23< Salwan> DesertPanther_: arguing that a word belongs to a language is like arguing that C used curly braces first :P
20100218 00:23:10< DesertPanther_> Salwan, the word has a clear meaning in Arabic, and it serves its purpose
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20100218 00:23:41< esr> Salwan: Come to yjinmk of it, I think "Sultan" is an Indo-Persian word.  I know it occurs in Farsi as a personal name.
20100218 00:23:58< esr> s/yjinmk/think/
20100218 00:24:27< Salwan> it's also used as a name in Arabic, but not common
20100218 00:24:36< DesertPanther_> Salwan, do you know why?
20100218 00:25:15< DesertPanther_> esr, I disagree, because it was mentiond in Quran many times
20100218 00:25:22< esr> The term used instead of "Indo-Aryan" is "Indo-European". 
20100218 00:25:31< DesertPanther_> and it has roots in Arabic
20100218 00:25:53< esr> I defer to your expertise.
20100218 00:27:42< fendrin> Sultana is a femal Sultan. That suggests that Khalifa is a female Khalif.
20100218 00:28:19< DesertPanther_> there wasn't a female Khalifa :D
20100218 00:29:10< fendrin> The german wikipedia (which might be wrong of course) claims that there have been Sultanas during the history and that a Sultan is always a Khalif as well.
20100218 00:29:30< Salwan> fendering: originall, Khalifa is the male ruler, there is no "Khalif" in arabic
20100218 00:29:52< DesertPanther_> Khalifa was called on who rules 3 cities, Mecca, Madina, Quds (Jeurslem)
20100218 00:30:03< Salwan> oops, I added a 'g' there, thank english for it's 'ing' thing
20100218 00:30:07< DesertPanther_> but some poeple broke this rule many times
20100218 00:30:24< DesertPanther_> Khalifa is taken from "Khalifa Ameer Al-Moa'meneen"
20100218 00:30:44< DesertPanther_> which translates: who inherted the prince of believers
20100218 00:30:52< DesertPanther_> of the**
20100218 00:31:00< DesertPanther_> Ameer = Prince
20100218 00:31:45< Salwan> Gosh DesertPanther_, you remind me of Encarta (RIP)
20100218 00:31:56< DesertPanther_> Ameer Al-Moa'meneen himself is also called "Khalifa Rusool Allah"
20100218 00:32:11< fendrin> I hope that there will be some terrain images for the new faction. Like Palasts instead of castle keeps.
20100218 00:32:34< DesertPanther_> which translates, who inherited the rule of God's messenger (or prophet)
20100218 00:34:09< DesertPanther_> lol @ Salwan 
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20100218 01:07:46< Salwan> time to go, good night everyone
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20100218 02:01:29< shadowmaster> agreed that http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28934 is a spambot?
20100218 02:01:40< shadowmaster> agreed? agreed.
20100218 02:02:22< Espreon> I don't know what to think.
20100218 02:02:34< Espreon> But, then again, who cares?
20100218 02:02:53< shadowmaster> I hope you are joking.
20100218 02:03:10< Espreon> Well, why wouldn't I be joking?
20100218 02:03:23< shadowmaster> dare1234123121@somefreeprovider.tld is obvioulsy a spambot
20100218 02:03:25-!- DesertPanther_ [~Khalid@41.234.233.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100218 02:03:39< Espreon> Well, of course.
20100218 02:03:54-!- ilor [~user@awn242.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100218 02:03:58< shadowmaster> and "who cares".... you want spam to pollute the forums or not?
20100218 02:04:04< shadowmaster> if you don't, then shut up
20100218 02:04:35< Espreon> I meant "Who cares about deciding whether or not to smite it?"
20100218 02:05:32< shadowmaster> I was hesitating for a bit before I saw the email address and remembered that the last 4 spambots used email addresses fromt he same "somefreeprovider" to register
20100218 02:10:07< noy> esr: I think I actually used a different transliteration of Caliphate, rather than Caliph, but it wasn't perfect. 
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20100218 02:14:28< noy> Caliphate really doesn't refer to a specific individual or era. Its a system of government and organization, which I don't think should be an issue. 
20100218 02:52:13< esr> noy: I think there's an issue.  The term has a pretty hard tie to specifics of Earth history.  I'm not happy about using it in what's supposed to be an independent secondary world.
20100218 02:54:36< noy> I don't see it that way, and its not intended to be a default faction either. It will only be in a default+kalifate era. 
20100218 02:57:29< noy> It is supposed to be modeled as an early islamic fashion, partly because I think alot of fantasy has simply used Europe middle ages at the exclusion of islamic history. 
20100218 02:58:27< noy> My attempt was to create a faction on this era without bastardizing it like some attempts have. 
20100218 02:59:08< noy> For example the faction doesn't use magic, which is consistent with islamic monothesism. 
20100218 02:59:43< noy> The faction design and unit art reflects this as well. 
20100218 03:03:03< Espreon> 20100217 20:51:39 error display: Failed to send visual notification: The name org.kde.VisualNotifications was not provided by any .service files — Hmmmmm...
20100218 03:03:26< Espreon> What exactly is needed for the notifications to work?
20100218 03:06:12< noy> The use of Khalifate, is generally a word for the system of government based on islam. However, it doesn't refer to a specific instance, nor does it comment on what its ethos is: It could refer to a wide range of islamic beliefs or eras. It is shia, sunni, what specific set of that religion? It doesn't say, nor do I intend to provide more depth. Yet it is an islamic inspired faction which its supposed to reflect. 
20100218 03:07:06< noy> And again its not a default faction, thus it doesn't have to tie into any campaign. 
20100218 03:08:39< shadowmaster> noy: TSI's UMC project doesn't involve any campaign then?
20100218 03:09:14< noy> I think he's creating an era that wouldn't be tied to the default era 
20100218 03:09:18< noy> with several factions
20100218 03:09:18< fendrin> noy: I personly do find the magic behind that area quite interresting. It's a pitty that there is a religion involved in the design of that faction.
20100218 03:10:13< noy> however thats a separate effort to my original effort. 
20100218 03:11:59 * shadowmaster isn't exactly sure how the "faction doesn't use magic" helps anything.
20100218 03:12:22< shadowmaster> I mean, compared to actual Middle Age Europe
20100218 03:13:45< noy> fendrin: well I think that just adds color to the faction... I don't think avoiding religion helps; exploring it through fiction makes it interesting. 
20100218 03:14:44< noy> I think at present there has been alot of misconceptions as well about this era of history, and this makes it accessible and interesting. 
20100218 03:15:07< fendrin> noy: The orient has long been a prospering area before the islam began to spread there. I would see that time more easy to target.
20100218 03:16:12< fendrin> Flying carpets, beast masters, djinn masters. Wonderlamps.
20100218 03:18:50< noy> yeah, but that doesn't quite refer to the Islamic history... thousand and one nights is a amalgam of alot of different cultures. 
20100218 03:19:36< noy> its more persian rather than islamic
20100218 03:19:53< noy> pre-islamic
20100218 03:21:11< fendrin> Oh, I misunderstood your goals. Thought you were up to create another high fantasy faction for Wesnoth. Your goal is a more realistic one like that project that targets modern warfare.
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20100218 03:28:16< noy> fendrin: I think its a bit of both actually. 
20100218 03:30:44< fendrin> The faction is already finished but still lacking art?
20100218 03:31:10< shadowmaster> it had art already, just not of the "mainline-quality, fully animated" variety AFAIK
20100218 03:32:03< shadowmaster> then again, "mainline-quality"'s definition has varied over the time.
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20100218 03:37:28< noy> shadowmaster is correct. It was originally a project as a seventh default faction about four years ago
20100218 03:38:15< noy> I was studying islamic history at the time in England and I thought it would be interesting for all the reasons I highlighted above to use it as a template of sorts
20100218 03:39:16< fendrin> I like the idea. I hope it will become the 7th default faction some day.
20100218 03:39:40< noy> Its somewhat different than what people normally associate with the middle east, which is the 1001 nights 
20100218 03:40:08< noy> thanks fendrin, but I don't think that will happen. Having it as a separate era might be the best it gets. 
20100218 03:40:49< shadowmaster> well, if it's required to avoid getting it butchered by random mainline devs
20100218 03:41:25< noy> shadowmaster: Its designed to occupy one of the last consistent movetypes you can have in Default
20100218 03:42:17< noy> given the makeup of mainline maps there is a limited number of unique movetypes that you can have. 
20100218 03:43:16< noy> this is one of the last ones. Moreover balancing for more than seven given our current system is nearly impossible
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20100218 03:45:39< fendrin> noy: What movetypes do the kalifa units have?
20100218 03:45:48< fendrin> noy: Can you point me to a thread?
20100218 03:46:24< noy> hills are their main usage... I believe they get a 60% there.
20100218 03:46:38< noy> sand is fairly good as well
20100218 03:47:23< noy> fendrin: there isn't a thread, it was largely done outside of it
20100218 03:47:46< fendrin> And there is no era downloadable that features them?
20100218 03:47:49< noy> we playtested alot of it amongst developers and friends
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20100218 03:54:06< noy> fendrin: I believe the ageless era might have them, but it uses the old art and maybe the old figures
20100218 03:54:49< noy> we made different stats for them
20100218 03:56:24< fendrin> noy: Can I download the new stuff somewhere?
20100218 03:56:35< noy> we haven't put it all together yet
20100218 03:56:57< noy> its a bit of a work in transition because we just got new art from TSI
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20100218 03:57:50< noy> fendrin: I;ll send you a copy when we get some stuff put together
20100218 03:58:01< fendrin> cool
20100218 03:59:20< fendrin> Those maps that have won the mp map contest, can they be found on the server?
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20100218 04:04:55< noy> I'm not sure... 
20100218 04:05:04< noy> I wasn't involved in that
20100218 04:05:19< fendrin> noy: The "life-guard" is very similar to an european knight, isn't it?
20100218 04:06:03< noy> thats a recent addition, which will be changed
20100218 04:06:19< noy> well it wasn't recent, but it wasn't one made by me or the people balancing it
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20100218 04:20:58< shadowmaster> hm... *wow*
20100218 04:21:05< shadowmaster> /data/core/images alone is 71 MB
20100218 04:21:29< shadowmaster> and /images is 2.8 MB.
20100218 04:21:42< shadowmaster> esr: why can't wmlscope check C++ anyway?
20100218 04:22:48< esr> shodowmaster: Spotting references in C++ is *hard*.
20100218 04:23:18< shadowmaster> actual explanation?
20100218 04:23:43< shadowmaster> in particular because most code will use image::get_image() only...
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20100218 04:27:34< esr> The problem, IIRC, is that the arguments to get.image are often constructed by C++ expressions in which the key bit is a string constand declared elsewhere.  So you'd need a codewalker that understood C++  *shudder*
20100218 04:31:31< shadowmaster> "shudder" indeed *rolls eyes*
20100218 04:31:57< shadowmaster> I hope that the day comes when the stupid image/ dir is merged into /data/core/images
20100218 04:32:09< shadowmaster> er /images dir is merged into blah blah
20100218 04:32:17< fendrin> I am going to code a simple label mechanism to the editor. It shall display the labels of a scenario in the editor.
20100218 04:32:29< shadowmaster> fendrin: talk with ilor
20100218 04:32:50< shadowmaster> he wrote the current editor as part of GSoC 2008 and can help you with its innards
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20100218 04:34:26< fendrin> shadowmaster: Good idea. But it's more an expert on using the macropreprocessor that is needed. The editor will have to read at least the macros in core and the ones of the scenario or campaign.
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20100218 04:34:47< shadowmaster> ugh.
20100218 04:35:31< shadowmaster> fendrin: the editor currently reads the base WML set (core) plus any <preferences>/data/add-ons paths that can be reached ungiven the state of the preprocessor at that point
20100218 04:35:53< shadowmaster> that is, with the EDITOR empty macro defined, plus anything else that may be defined by core WML
20100218 04:37:01< shadowmaster> if you need to read scenarios from user made campaigns, expect problems (in particular of the "horrible caching performance" variety) if you foolishly define whatever macros are mentioned in every reachable [campaign] define= definition
20100218 04:37:43< shadowmaster> IMHO you'd prefer to give the editor the ability to select which campaigns (or maybe add-ons, in general) should be preprocessed and made available for working with
20100218 04:38:15< shadowmaster> s/ungiven/given/
20100218 04:41:36< shadowmaster> thinking about this immediately makes me think "oh damn, then again there's no true modularity for user-made ERAS, they only expect to have their code reached by the parser after the preprocessor goes through it with MULTIPLAYER defined" and then I start thinking about how much Wesnoth still sucks :x
20100218 04:41:58< shadowmaster> same goes for user-made MP map packs, can't forget those.
20100218 04:42:42< shadowmaster> so yeah, you have something that could be more difficult to implement *right* than "just implement", good luck ;)
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20100218 04:43:18< fendrin> Okay, let's do it even more simple. I will process [item] tags that are inside the map definition like border and such things.
20100218 04:43:37< shadowmaster> hm, [item] tags inside the map definition? how so?
20100218 04:44:43< shadowmaster> ah, wait, you want to insert WML into the map definition (which is in turn inserted into WML with help from the preprocessor, usually)
20100218 04:45:07< fendrin> right, do you see a problem there?
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20100218 04:46:33< shadowm_laptop> fendrin: not at first glance, although ISTR a dev speaking against a similar idea back in 2007
20100218 04:46:41< shadowm_laptop> I could be wrong though. I need to go to bed, good night.
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20100218 10:56:02< Ivanovic> moin
20100218 11:21:09< Ivanovic> Sirp: (no idea if you read your backlogs) this might interest you: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=410702#p410702
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20100218 11:42:23< loonycyborg> esr: If you want a C++ code walker, you probably should investigate clang, the new C++ compiler. I heard that it supposed to be more easily usable by external tools.
20100218 11:42:29-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100218 11:44:09< loonycyborg> Actually its C++ support currently is unfinished, but it's a matter of time.
20100218 12:23:02< fendrin> ilor: Are you around?
20100218 12:23:19< ilor> fendrin: somewhat
20100218 12:23:48< fendrin> ilor: Is it easy to insert more buttons in the editor's gui? 
20100218 12:24:14< ilor> fendrin: in the main UI? not as easy as I'd like, it's old theme stuff
20100218 12:25:11< fendrin> ilor: But adding more pseudo terrain groups that do in fact other stuff is easy?
20100218 12:25:37< ilor> fendrin: that's simple, you cat do it in WML
20100218 12:25:45< ilor> *can
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20100218 12:26:15< fendrin> And I can bound whatever is needed to be executed when it is pressed?
20100218 12:26:21< ilor> uh, no
20100218 12:26:25< ilor> ah
20100218 12:26:42< ilor> I didn't read your message closely enough, no, that won't be as simple
20100218 12:27:03< ilor> fendrin: what do you want to do?
20100218 12:27:27< fendrin> I want to extend the editor. It will read and write to a [map] wml tag. 
20100218 12:28:40< fendrin> Inside that map tag live [unit] [item] and [label]. The editor will show them on the map and the designer will be able to define them. The game just reads [map] like if the subtags would have been at [scenario] toplevel.
20100218 12:30:03< fendrin> The functionality of the [label] setter would be quite similar to what is now there to set the starting position. 
20100218 12:30:32< fendrin> ilor: Yeah, that is it basically. Wanted to keep things simple.
20100218 12:30:49< Rhonda> https://buildd.debian.org/fetch.cgi?pkg=wesnoth&arch=s390&ver=1%3A1.7.13-1&stamp=1266262999&file=log&as=raw
20100218 12:31:19< Rhonda> Can someone look if that issue is addressed in trunk already? It might be some specific corner cases because it only seems to appear on s390.
20100218 12:31:42< Rhonda> Otherwise I'd need to use the switch to _not_ turn warnings into errors again. :)
20100218 12:32:12< ilor> fendrin: that would probably work better as a tool, not a terrain group
20100218 12:32:20< ilor> terrain group better be well, terrain groups
20100218 12:32:57< fendrin> ilor: yes right, I have asked you about the extendability of the tool group. Now you found the word for me.
20100218 12:33:42< loonycyborg> Rhonda: It more looks like compiler brainfart to me.
20100218 12:34:03< ilor> fendrin: I thing it should be more or less doable, I *think* tools are treated as N tools without too much hardcoding
20100218 12:34:11< Rhonda> loonycyborg: Might very well be but I'm not able to judge such things closely.
20100218 12:36:21< ilor> fendrin: in the code, tools are somewhat incorrectly refered to as mouse actions
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20100218 12:36:44< fendrin> ilor: Is the code for drawing units accesable in the editor?
20100218 12:37:43< ilor> fendrin: I'm afraid not, editor_display is separate and simpler
20100218 12:38:08< ilor> you should be able to work it out by looking at game_display
20100218 12:38:18< fendrin> ilor: But I can display overlays like the [item] tag does? And emulate unit placement that way.
20100218 12:40:35< ilor> fendrin: I'm not sure really. You'll have to look at display, game_display and editor_display
20100218 12:40:55< ilor> IIRC the editor has no concept of units whatsoever atm
20100218 12:41:06< fendrin> ilor: Okay, thank you :-) Will dig me through it.
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20100218 14:13:47< fendrin> ilor: Where do I need to register new paint tools in the editor?
20100218 14:14:03< fendrin> ilor: I have implemented a new mouse_action class already.
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20100218 14:29:36< Rhonda> Who does the wesnoth images for OSX?
20100218 14:29:37-!- Getty [torsten@conflictindustries.org] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100218 14:29:41< Getty> i'm back again!
20100218 14:29:47< Getty> F.E.A.R.
20100218 14:29:57< fendrin> Getty: And who are you?
20100218 14:30:26< Getty> a friend :) dont playing wesnoth, but asking all kind of strange questions :)
20100218 14:31:24< Rhonda> Getty: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnothOnMacOSX
20100218 14:31:30< fendrin> Getty: Ah, so you claim to be a friend but you don't play wesnoth? Suspicious ...
20100218 14:31:46< Getty> fendrin: can i like a project without playing it? :) i think so, or?
20100218 14:32:02< Getty> Wesnoth is a reference for open source development, so its good to take a peak if you do the same :)
20100218 14:32:14< Getty> peek even
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20100218 14:32:40< ilor> fendrin: look at editor_controller::init_mouse_actions. you'll need a hotkey, among other things
20100218 14:32:55< fendrin> ilor: hotkey is already there.
20100218 14:33:25< Rhonda> Getty: Especially the part starting off at "Build using XCode"
20100218 14:33:52< Getty> That documentation is awesome
20100218 14:33:58< Getty> its really giving all the hint that missed so far
20100218 14:34:15< Getty> underlines again how good wesnoth development is
20100218 14:34:55< Rhonda> … and states that Sithrandel might be the person to give you deeper help. :)
20100218 14:35:23< Rhonda> Be friendly with him, we still need him.
20100218 14:35:34< Getty> so no raping??? :(
20100218 14:35:46< Rhonda> I fear no.
20100218 14:35:52< Getty> damn it
20100218 14:35:57< Getty> ok i be nice to him
20100218 14:37:09< Getty> did you guys here ever planned on "full automatic building"?
20100218 14:37:37< Getty> as in: someone commits new stuff, and packages for all OS are automatically generated (or can be automatically generated)
20100218 14:38:15< Rhonda> Given that the project itself doesn't generate binary packages - no. :)
20100218 14:38:41< ilor> fendrin: you'll also probably need the actual button to be defined, have a look around editor's theme file
20100218 14:39:01< Rhonda> I think isaac had such a setup once for building Debian packages but disabled it because people kept pressing the "build it now" button, producing heavy load on the box.
20100218 14:39:44< loonycyborg> Getty: There's a semi-automatically generated windows binary on the server, built with mingw cross-compiler :P
20100218 14:40:02< fendrin> ilor: That is a wml file? Where is it?
20100218 14:41:34< Getty> loonycyborg: awesome! <pray>
20100218 14:42:00< ilor> fendrin: data/themes/editor.cfg
20100218 14:42:06< ilor> beware of the dragons
20100218 14:43:15< Getty> loonycyborg: sadly the project i forked of is made 100% with VC++ for windows
20100218 14:43:43< Rhonda>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND          
20100218 14:43:46< Rhonda> 11071 loonycyb  30  10  120m 106m 2656 R   98  3.5   0:01.48 cc1plus           
20100218 14:43:55 * Rhonda peeks at loonycyborg - "semi-automatically"?  ;)
20100218 14:44:25< Getty> loonycyborg: but we already got automatic procedure for windows machine
20100218 14:46:10< loonycyborg> Rhonda: Yes. Me running it from ssh is that's why it's "semi" :P
20100218 14:46:25< Getty> loonycyborg: is that in the svn? the files for doing it?
20100218 14:47:17< loonycyborg> Not everything. Dependencies such as pango etc naturally aren't in svn.
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20100218 14:52:10< Getty> loonycyborg: but the files for doing it are in the svn?
20100218 14:52:17< loonycyborg> Basically, the whole setup is a script that fetches latest trunk and runs scons, dependencies compiled for mingw platform and appropriate scons settings.
20100218 14:52:26< Getty> awesome
20100218 14:52:30< Getty> i want that
20100218 14:52:31< Getty> exactly that
20100218 14:52:43< Getty> and the NSIS installer can also be made on linux directly, that i know so far
20100218 14:53:07< fendrin> ilor: dragons?
20100218 14:53:31< loonycyborg> Yes. Though it's brutally slow for some reason, at least when building installer for wesnoth.
20100218 14:55:01< loonycyborg> It looks NSIS has some linux-specific problems if there are too much files to be added to installer.
20100218 14:55:29< Getty> how you add them?
20100218 14:55:33< Getty> single or with a /R ?
20100218 14:56:15< loonycyborg> With /R
20100218 14:56:55< ilor> fendrin: I don't claim to understand how the theming system works or how to neatly add a button. Good luck.
20100218 14:57:35< fendrin> ilor: The button is already there a little outplaced pherhpas. Wesnoth still exits if it is pressed.
20100218 14:59:16< ilor> fendrin: you did a near-full rebuild after touching hotkey.hpp?
20100218 14:59:56< ilor> fendrin: if you do stuff much like it's done for the starting position tool it should work.
20100218 15:00:47< fendrin> ilor: I don't know. Will do a clean and a full rebuild. 
20100218 15:01:19< ilor> fendrin: if you don't have other changes and it still crashes send me a diff and I'll have a look
20100218 15:01:52< Getty> loonycyborg: it is very slow in general, also on windows, but i will test it
20100218 15:03:00< loonycyborg> That problem doesn't happen on windows.
20100218 15:04:31< sebas_> does anyone knows if campaign_selection, should be removed from target to compile on xcode?
20100218 15:04:51< Getty> loonycyborg: my problem with mingw compiling was always the libs
20100218 15:05:18< loonycyborg> I suspected as much.
20100218 15:05:23< Getty> loonycyborg: i tried to compile the core libs (zlib, and so on) with mingw (on windows, tho) and it never worked really
20100218 15:05:47< Getty> but with scons... probably it works better
20100218 15:07:13< loonycyborg> It works for me as long as I ensure that no native libs are in search path :P
20100218 15:08:53< loonycyborg> The only things that are different from native compile that you call mingw32-gcc or so instead of plain gcc and you use libs that are compiled on windows or are cross-compiled too.
20100218 15:09:45< Getty> yeah that is the problem, stuff that is cross compiled, too
20100218 15:09:56< Getty> but would be awesome to have our game also in that kind of generation
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20100218 15:10:04< Getty> we are actually very bound to a fast test workflow
20100218 15:10:10< Getty> i want new version => new distribution directly
20100218 15:10:18< Getty> so anything with cross compiling makes my day 8-)
20100218 15:10:30< Getty> and what about cross compiling for mac? ever checked on that?
20100218 15:11:26< loonycyborg> There are some efforts afaik, but I myself don't have access to a mac to test binaries that I would make, so I don't even bother.
20100218 15:11:38< Getty> sad
20100218 15:15:08< Getty> how long you needed to make it crosscompile? :)
20100218 15:15:25< CIA-88> ai0867 * r41280 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/formula_debugger.cfg: Fix some two-tags-on-single-line issues and the indentation that wmlindent didn't get right because of it
20100218 15:17:17< loonycyborg> Getty: I don't remember :P
20100218 15:17:39< Getty> many years, eh? ;)
20100218 15:18:53< loonycyborg> Probably that took somewhat less time than that..
20100218 15:19:41-!- ilor [~user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20100218 15:19:45< Getty> so just months? ;)
20100218 15:20:29< loonycyborg> Probably a week at most, otherwise I'd just given up.
20100218 15:21:09< Getty> i tried it 2-3 weeks
20100218 15:21:21< Getty> what i learned at that time.... unbelievable...
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20100218 15:25:11< sebas_> Hi, I am getting linker errors compiling wesnoth on mac..., does any one knows if lobby_main.cpp or campaign_selection.cpp should be added to wesnoth target?¿
20100218 15:27:39< loonycyborg> sebas_: Yes.
20100218 15:27:41< fendrin> ilor: hotkey.gethotkey() is failing. 
20100218 15:28:00< ilor> fendrin: yu sure you added the hotkey properly?
20100218 15:28:08< ilor> both in the hpp and cpp file
20100218 15:29:32< sebas_> I added the .cpp, but .hpp doesnt matter because xcode knows where to find them
20100218 15:29:47< sebas_> hotkey.cpp?¿
20100218 15:30:17< sebas_> hotkey is added
20100218 15:30:46< loonycyborg> Not xcode but gcc but whatever :P
20100218 15:32:14< Ivanovic> sebas_: you should have a look at the commandline based buildsystems and get the list of files to add from those
20100218 15:32:23< Ivanovic> eg the file src/CMakelists.txt
20100218 15:32:37< loonycyborg> Or src/SConscript :P
20100218 15:33:22< fendrin> ilor: I have added one new item to the HOTKEY_COMMAND enum. And one more in htkeys.cpp.
20100218 15:33:56< ilor> fendrin: send me a diff of hotkey.?pp (pastesite)
20100218 15:35:39< fendrin> ilor: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d7979ff91
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20100218 15:43:00< fendrin> ilor: got the link? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d7979ff91
20100218 15:43:18< ilor> fendrin: yeah I do check the logs when dropping out like that ;)
20100218 15:44:42< ilor> fendrin: "should work"
20100218 15:44:53< ilor> fendrin: backtrace from the crash?
20100218 15:45:07< fendrin> ilor: It does now. just fixed it in editor_controller.
20100218 15:45:16< ilor> I see. good ;)
20100218 15:45:31< fendrin> Thank you.
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20100218 15:58:07< fendrin> ilor: It's working. I can set labels in the editor.
20100218 15:58:43< ilor> fendrin: ;)
20100218 16:18:35< sebas_> I compiled wesnoth with yesterday svn, I was testing the campaign northern rebird, but it does not have any pics, in the intro, is that normal?
20100218 16:20:08< loonycyborg> It seems to be black for me.
20100218 16:20:31< sebas_> me 2
20100218 16:21:28< loonycyborg> I'm not sure whether it's really supposed to be like that. It's long since I've played NR.
20100218 16:25:04< Ivanovic> sebas_: test if httt works
20100218 16:25:11< Ivanovic> there are images at the beginning
20100218 16:25:24< Ivanovic> if those are not shown you probably lack jpeg support in your libs
20100218 16:25:38< sebas_> httt?
20100218 16:25:49< loonycyborg> They work for me.
20100218 16:26:18< sebas_> heir to the trone?
20100218 16:26:25< Ivanovic> jupp
20100218 16:27:22< sebas_> it works
20100218 16:27:39< Ivanovic> then northern rebirth most likely does not have story art but just story test
20100218 16:27:57< sebas_> where are the jpeg stored?
20100218 16:28:22< Ivanovic> you should first check if there *ARE* any images as story artwork for northern rebirth
20100218 16:28:31< Ivanovic> this you do by reading the .cfg files (wml)
20100218 16:28:40< loonycyborg> I remeber that there were story art later in the campaign, but I'm not sure about beginning.
20100218 16:28:57< loonycyborg> *remember
20100218 16:29:23< sebas_> i c
20100218 16:30:08< Ivanovic> and, suprise, suprise: data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/01_Breaking_the_Chains.cfg lists no story art, so at least the beginning of the campaign just has black backgrounds with the story text
20100218 16:31:08< sebas_> i c
20100218 16:31:14< sebas_> no bug then xD+
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20100218 16:33:51< sebas_> what was the bug webpage link?
20100218 16:34:09< sebas_> bugs*
20100218 16:34:42< Ivanovic> try bugs.wesnoth.org
20100218 16:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 78 bugs, 248 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100218 16:43:37< Ivanovic> fendrin, zookeeper: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15414
20100218 16:45:31< fendrin> Ivanovic: Seems complex.
20100218 16:45:39< Ivanovic> jupp
20100218 16:46:01< Ivanovic> sounds like "seldom corner case"
20100218 16:50:56< sebas_> in bug, https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15393, how do you see warnings?
20100218 16:52:11< Ivanovic> you watch your terminal while playing
20100218 16:52:22< Ivanovic> yes, starting from terminal is nice, this way you get nice error output!
20100218 16:53:25< sebas_> i c, does wesnoth has its own terminal or do I have to start wesnoth from mac terminal?
20100218 16:53:54< fendrin> sebas_: both
20100218 17:03:19< zookeeper> Ivanovic, fendrin, i'll take a look..
20100218 17:05:15< sebas_> what would be the correct sintax to start, wesnoth.app on mac from terminal
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20100218 17:10:30< zookeeper> Ivanovic, fendrin, not hard to fix, i'll do it tonight
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20100218 17:11:13< zookeeper> btw i find it really unfortunate that [unstore_unit]ing an invalid variable breaks the game and throws you back to the title screen.
20100218 17:11:37< fendrin> zookeeper: Yes, please fill a bug report about that.
20100218 17:12:31< zookeeper> sure we've found a lot of minor bugs because of it but a few too many of the campaigns suddenly broke because of it
20100218 17:12:56< zookeeper> i bet there's still more of those in mainline somewhere
20100218 17:26:02< fendrin> ilor: Would you place the datastructure that holds the labels (a std::map<map_location, terrain_label>) into map_context or editor_map?
20100218 17:26:43< ilor> that is somewhat arbitrary
20100218 17:27:05< ilor> however if it's supposed to be drawn, editor_map, because editor_display doesn't see the map context
20100218 17:27:39< ilor> fendrin: makes sense?
20100218 17:28:23< sebas_> to mac, when you open wesnoth from terminal, is this output normal:
20100218 17:28:24< sebas_> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d2f320f70
20100218 17:28:34< sebas_> mac users*
20100218 17:31:41< fendrin> ilor: Not realy. I just need a display to draw it and display seems to be around everywhere. So that isn't an issue.
20100218 17:32:19< ilor> fendrin: the drawing should take place in editor_display if it's things on the map
20100218 17:32:40< ilor> like the selection for instance
20100218 17:32:56< fendrin> ilor: yes, and since editor_display is inherited from game_display the code to draw the labels is already in place.
20100218 17:33:02< ilor> otherwise it'll be hard for you to have scrolling work reasonably
20100218 17:33:49< fendrin> The editor already uses the same labels that you can see ingame for the players' starting positions.
20100218 17:33:58< ilor> fendrin: are you planning on making undo work with those new features?
20100218 17:34:23< fendrin> ilor: Yes, that is why I am currently implementing action.cpp.
20100218 17:34:31< ilor> great
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20100218 20:21:52< shadowmaster> esr: around?
20100218 20:22:10< esr> Yes, what's up?
20100218 20:22:20< shadowmaster> in http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1729, your IRC quotation is messed up
20100218 20:22:29< shadowmaster> I can't tell who is you or who you are talking to
20100218 20:23:07< esr> How add.  Shows fine on my Firefox 3.5.
20100218 20:23:19< shadowmaster> I am using Firefox (Iceweasel) 3.5.6
20100218 20:23:20< esr> What are you using?
20100218 20:23:32< esr> Hm.  Screenshot?
20100218 20:23:32< shadowmaster> esr: ugh, you are using invalid HTML, you bad person :(
20100218 20:23:38< esr> ???
20100218 20:23:44< shadowmaster> this is what Firefox sees, literally:
20100218 20:23:45< shadowmaster> [22:36]	<espreon>	Excellent.<br>
20100218 20:23:56< shadowmaster> <espreon> is not a valid HTML tag, naturally
20100218 20:25:08< shadowmaster> and it goes like this: http://pastebin.com/ddab9616
20100218 20:30:15< Ivanovic> esr: replace the < by &lt; and the > by &gt;
20100218 20:30:22< Ivanovic> (those around nicknames that is)
20100218 20:34:17< esr> Ahh.  Good point.
20100218 20:35:05< shadowmaster> rather obvious, really
20100218 20:35:56< esr> I pasted without thinking.
20100218 20:37:57< esr> Should be fixed now.  (I have this *wicked cool* Firefox plugin called "It's all Text" that lets me forward a Firefox text field to Emacs for editing.)
20100218 20:39:42< shadowmaster> yeah, it is fixed, but there are </esr> and </espreon> lines now
20100218 20:39:50< esr> Looking....
20100218 20:39:59< shadowmaster> now I think I'm reading a XML code snippet
20100218 20:40:04< shadowmaster> ;)
20100218 20:43:54< esr> :-)
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20100218 20:54:29< mordante> servus
20100218 20:55:37< Ivanovic> hi mordante
20100218 20:55:44< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20100218 20:55:55< Ivanovic> ilor, mordante: what is the current status on the front called "mp lobby"?
20100218 20:56:18< Ivanovic> do you think that a "100% working" version might be possible for sunday?
20100218 20:56:36< mordante> there are some crashes and issues left, but I hope to get them done this weekend
20100218 20:56:44< Ivanovic> okay
20100218 20:56:54< ilor> same here but not sure if I can promise 100%
20100218 20:56:58< Ivanovic> i'd like to "really soon" release the next and hopefully really last beta
20100218 20:57:05< Ivanovic> would be great if this was sunday
20100218 20:57:16< Ivanovic> esr: have you had a look at the polished announcement?
20100218 20:57:21< mordante> I've some more code to speed things up, but I think it's not needed and rather experimental 
20100218 20:57:29< Ivanovic> esr: can it be stringfroozen, so that translators can start working on it=
20100218 20:57:44< mordante> so I guess I prefer to postpone it until trunk thaws
20100218 20:58:15< mordante> still afraid some of the jumpiness of the game list might be annoying, but not really sure
20100218 20:58:17< shadowmaster> I was expecting the lobby to come along with DNF for GNU/Hurd
20100218 20:58:21< esr> Ivanovic: I'll look at the announcement today, but I don't think we are anywhere near ready for a final beta.
20100218 20:58:27< shadowmaster> *lobby fixes
20100218 20:58:38< ilor> shadowmaster: not funny :(
20100218 20:58:42< shadowmaster> and maybe branch 1.6 before reaching RC ;)
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20100218 20:58:48< mordante> shadowmaster, nah it just waits on the German translation team :-P
20100218 21:00:17< shadowmaster> I'm a bit annoyed that Jetrel hasn't finished his long-ago announced revamp of the pointy ears, and so far it seems that they won't make it to 1.6
20100218 21:00:55< mordante> back to the future?
20100218 21:01:06< shadowmaster> no, I mean, 1.6 will still have the same old 1.2 static Sylph
20100218 21:01:24< mordante> which 1.6 version?
20100218 21:01:37< shadowmaster> oh crap.
20100218 21:01:43< shadowmaster> I mean 1.8.
20100218 21:02:14< shadowmaster> we are still in 2008, right? ;(
20100218 21:02:27< mordante> guess you are ;-)
20100218 21:03:18< Ivanovic> esr: after final beta (once it really works!) there will be an rc
20100218 21:04:32< mordante> Rhonda, that buildd error only happens on s390 and is it new (that code looks old). Maybe disabling strict compilation fixes the problem
20100218 21:05:59< mordante> fendrin, I'm not really convinced adding more functionality to the editor regarding scenarios is a good idea
20100218 21:06:50< mordante> fendrin, rather see a separate program for that, might be Broodkiller is working on that (actually not sure what he's working on)
20100218 21:07:38< Ivanovic> IMO all the map editor should do is touch the stuff that is available in the .map files
20100218 21:08:01< mordante> this is only the map data and starting positions
20100218 21:08:11< Ivanovic> exactly
20100218 21:08:38< esr> Ivanovic: I agree, but I want to be amble to embed scenery images in maps (where I think they belong) rather than having to place them with WML.
20100218 21:09:01< mordante> Getty, if you want to use mingw for cross compilation you might want to have a look at http://www.nongnu.org/mingw-cross-env/ works rather nicely
20100218 21:09:44< esr> I also want to be able to embed named locations in maps that WML can see, so we can seriously cut down on the incidence of fragile numerical coordinates in WML.
20100218 21:09:45< mordante> esr, which is an horrible idea it ties extra dependencies to the map code
20100218 21:10:03< esr> mordante: Why should it do that?
20100218 21:10:16< mordante> since the map code then need to load that stuff
20100218 21:10:19< Ivanovic> esr: somehow from a user perspective this feels "right" but it does create a mess regarding what you have in the map files
20100218 21:10:39< esr> Image names.
20100218 21:10:50< mordante> ?
20100218 21:10:55< shadowmaster> image paths ;)
20100218 21:11:03< esr> shadowmaster: Yes.
20100218 21:11:10< Ivanovic> *binary paths*!
20100218 21:11:26< Ivanovic> ugly hell for campaignspecific stuff
20100218 21:11:42< mordante> Getty, and I have a wesnoth build file for that project as well, not much tested but seems to work
20100218 21:11:45< Ivanovic> with terrains it is simple, all definitions found are added with a warning where it is available
20100218 21:12:05< Ivanovic> for placement of scenario images it is, uhm, "problematic"
20100218 21:12:08< esr> Some kind of relative-path search semantics could be worked out..
20100218 21:12:12< mordante> Getty, and it might need some polishing regarding the downloading of the latest version
20100218 21:12:49< esr> Advantages: campaign designers can now edit scenery visually.  WML becomes simpler.
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20100218 21:13:30< esr> WML wouldn't have as much tendencyt to get broken on every map edit.
20100218 21:13:52< shadowmaster> I'd rather see a complete scenario editor than just a map editor that also happens to be able to insert images
20100218 21:13:54< mordante> esr, allowing things to be edited visually doesn't mean the map class should be responsible for that part
20100218 21:14:06 * mordante agrees with shadowmaster 
20100218 21:14:10< shadowmaster> and then you'd turn my WML into crap if you loaded it into that editor :(
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20100218 21:14:32< Ivanovic> at least some scenario editor that allows to start the map editor functionality where you do "map changes"
20100218 21:14:52< esr> shadowmaster: A complete secenario editor woulkd be far miore complex.  Don't let the pergect be the enemy of the achievable.
20100218 21:14:54< Ivanovic> but in general it would place scenario objects as well as skelleton code for events and the likes
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20100218 21:15:11< shadowmaster> I can just imagining newbies asking "I put potions in the map but they doesn't werk!11!!!!"
20100218 21:15:16< shadowmaster> s/can/am/
20100218 21:15:55< esr> Ivanovic: I think thge right way tohandle that is WML-accessible nam,es locations in events.  So your moveto can say that its trigger area is map locatiuon foo.
20100218 21:16:03< Rhonda> mordante: I think as long as it is in experimental I will keep it enabled because it doesn't really affect anything.
20100218 21:16:11< shadowmaster> maybe the editor could have some sort of plugin system (mayhbe in Lua) that allowed random joes to extend its functionality, like the GIMO?
20100218 21:16:14< shadowmaster> GIMP.
20100218 21:16:41< esr> shadowmaster: I think you'rre being too ambitious again.
20100218 21:16:54< mordante> Rhonda, well I expect that Wesnoth can be in unstable soon and we might make it before the squeeze freeze :-)
20100218 21:17:05< shadowmaster> esr: I am like that, why do you think persistent WML variables aren't in trunk yet? :P
20100218 21:17:39< fendrin> Okay, the label feature is nearly there. I need only to code writing to the map file and it's ready. I can't see why it will complicate things for the map, not the way it is done now. 
20100218 21:17:40< shadowmaster> (that is besides the "ohhh, I'm coding this new feature- aaaargh freature freeze nooooo" accident)
20100218 21:18:02< mordante> Rhonda, btw that last wesnoth bug indeed looks like the SDL issue
20100218 21:18:12< esr> fendrin: You mean you can deliver named locations in maps?
20100218 21:18:54< fendrin> esr: Yes, you can bind a label to a hex in the editor. Like [label].
20100218 21:19:42< esr> fendrin: Good.  Now WML needs a way to be able to look up labels in the map and resolve them to coordinates.
20100218 21:19:44 * shadowmaster still thinks that editor plugins could be a good "IncrediblyHardCoding" task for the future
20100218 21:20:08 * esr waves the Fish of Excessive Ambition at shadowmaster
20100218 21:20:22< shadowmaster> hey, I didn't say I was going to do it myself or force ilor to work on it
20100218 21:20:33< mordante> fendrin, can we discuss this before adding it, since we always said we wanted to keep the map editor a map editor
20100218 21:21:00< mordante> and adding not map editor features is a slippery slope
20100218 21:21:20< esr> mordante: Some way to associate metadata with map locations is inevitable.  Surrender gracefully :-)
20100218 21:21:35< Ivanovic> esr: 2 things:
20100218 21:21:44< Ivanovic> 1) does not have to be in the normal map editor!
20100218 21:21:53< Ivanovic> 2) feature freeze as well as string freeze!
20100218 21:21:57< esr> That is, we'd need this for htypothetical scenerrio editors anyway.
20100218 21:22:14< shadowmaster> can't we add "3) you will be forced to answer newbie questions like 'potions don't work!'"? ;)
20100218 21:22:25< esr> Ivanovic: 1) Cool down, we're clearly talking 1.9 here
20100218 21:22:33 * fendrin thinks that map editing + labels + overlay items belong in one programm.
20100218 21:23:01< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: ah, right, almost forgot '3', which is really important, too
20100218 21:23:08< mordante> esr, that's bullshit then everybody can just start to code what s/he wants without discussion
20100218 21:23:16< esr> 2) Yes it does have to be in the map editor..  We wannt to *simplify* life for campaign designers, not proliferate tools. 
20100218 21:24:00< esr> mordante: Isn't that the way it works anyway?  I don't recall signing off on GUI2.  No offense meant.
20100218 21:24:06< mordante> fendrin, and the next thing is units also belong in it and where does it stop
20100218 21:24:18< mordante> esr, that was discussed on IRC before I started
20100218 21:24:45< esr> mordante: It doesn't stop anywhere.  You're being mnaive if you think otherwise.
20100218 21:25:04< fendrin> mordante: events. 
20100218 21:25:21< mordante> fendrin, people will ask for that as well
20100218 21:25:31< esr> mordante: Rightly so.,
20100218 21:26:17< mordante> which means you want to turn the map editor into a scenario editor
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20100218 21:26:22< esr> You should think of the map editor as "where all the things that can be visually edited want to live".  This is not bloat, it's correct aggregation of related functions.
20100218 21:26:50< fendrin> mordante: Yes, sure. And hopefully someone will do that but not me. I am fine with emacs for the events. But emacs is not fine for overlay images or other coordinate related map design.
20100218 21:27:05< mordante> esr, which depends on the goal of the program, which is editing maps
20100218 21:27:15< ilor> I'd have to side with esr here. overlays and labels belong in the map editor IMO
20100218 21:27:26< esr> Frankly I don't think a "scenario editor" in the most general sense is either achievable or desirable.
20100218 21:27:44< ilor> I'd add three things to the map format -- these two and definable map areas for use in WML
20100218 21:28:07< esr> ilor: Agreed. I was going to mention map areas.
20100218 21:28:28< Rhonda> mordante: I really am glad that you filed that bugreport - and even more glad that sdl package maintainers didn't downgrade it yet. :)
20100218 21:28:28< esr> They're needed for descrribing area-triggered movetos.
20100218 21:28:53< Ivanovic> which report?
20100218 21:28:54< ilor> I think it would simplify stuff a lot if instead of x,y=lots of numbers we could do area=kalenz_castle
20100218 21:29:03< esr> ilor: exactly.
20100218 21:29:04< fendrin> I won't add anything to the map format. everything goes into a [map] wml tag. I won't touch the editor or the map representation. 
20100218 21:29:04< Ivanovic> the one about libsdl 1.2.14 being broken?
20100218 21:29:09< mordante> Ivanovic, yes
20100218 21:29:24< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Yes, as release-critical so that 1.2.14 won't move into squeeze. :D
20100218 21:29:31< ilor> fendrin: for 1.9 we can touch the map format, especially if we handle old maps gracefully
20100218 21:29:45< mordante> Rhonda, well it breaks an unrelated package so that seems a reason to file an RC bug :-)
20100218 21:30:01< ilor> I would prefer to have static map objects defined together with the map file
20100218 21:30:09< Rhonda> mordante: Too bad that ubuntu synced libsdl 1.2.14
20100218 21:30:20< fendrin> ilor: Yes maybe. But I don't see the need to. I am fine with the current implementation.
20100218 21:30:40< ilor> fendrin: it's keeping stuff that belongs together, together.
20100218 21:31:08 * esr agrees with ilor about static map objects in the map file.
20100218 21:31:08< Ivanovic> Rhonda: hey, they are experienced in using "known to be broken" stuff
20100218 21:31:17< mordante> ilor, and adding extra things to it makes it slower for processing the terrain rules which use the same map parser
20100218 21:31:21< Ivanovic> cf making pulseaudio the default when it was far from ready
20100218 21:31:41< fendrin> esr: What exactly would be a static map object?
20100218 21:32:02< Ivanovic> (and IMO backporting of kernel patches is the worst thing possible, cf that stuff: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzk5Nw )
20100218 21:32:02< mordante> Rhonda, indeed too bad, but t.b.h. I don't care too much about Ubuntu
20100218 21:32:19< ilor> mordante: how would storing a bit more stuff after map data make things noticeably slower?
20100218 21:32:26< esr> fehdrin: a) A label, b) a scenery or item image, c) a named hex or area.
20100218 21:32:52< CIA-88> zookeeper * r41281 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/06a_In_the_Tunnels_of_Trolls.cfg: Worked around bug #15414, prevented some unnecessary undo invalidation and removed a redundant [kill].
20100218 21:33:02< mordante> ilor, that and how should that parser handle that data
20100218 21:33:57< zookeeper> anyone want to look into making fog/shroud be updated right before firing the moveto event when making a move+attack action? i think http://gna.org/bugs/?15414 was caused by the vision getting updated after the moveto event had fired, whereas i think it'd make sense to fire it before.
20100218 21:33:59< ilor> mordante: this data is already there, only it's parsed on scenario level. what's the difference?
20100218 21:34:01< mordante> I already had to do several optimizations to keep the map format fast enough after upgrading to the new multiletter format
20100218 21:34:10< mordante> ilor, ?
20100218 21:34:32< ilor> mordante: I'd imagine this data would be stored after the raw terrain array which would be just like it is now
20100218 21:34:44< ilor> so no changes in the actual terrain data parser
20100218 21:34:46< esr> I don't care whether the static map objects are embedded in the terrain markup or as special structured WML after it in the map file.  
20100218 21:35:46< mordante> I see no advantage to do it in the map data making that parser responsible for things it doesn't care about
20100218 21:35:58< esr> All I care about is a) pick and place scenery/item editing in the editor, and b) the ability to refer to named locations from WML. 
20100218 21:36:19< happygrue> Ivanovic: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28946
20100218 21:36:20< esr> mordante: The representation doesn't matter to me.
20100218 21:36:25< mordante> which if we want to add that has no need to be placed in the map format
20100218 21:36:30 * zookeeper still prefers the idea of having a separate text box window into which the item/label/whatever WML gets outputted to, and from which the user can just copypaste it into the scenario
20100218 21:36:40< ilor> mordante: named ranges have no place outside of the map file
20100218 21:36:47< Ivanovic> happygrue: that one is for mordante
20100218 21:37:55< esr> mordante: But it needs to be in the map *file* so that the editor is working on a unit of data.  Otherwise things get really messay, metatadata easily falls out of sync with maps, and it's no fun.
20100218 21:38:14< mordante> ilor, for named ranges I agree, but for overlays items etc I disagree
20100218 21:38:40< ilor> mordante: for items that have actual use other than just map decoration I agree with you
20100218 21:38:59< mordante> esr, I think the idea ilor has for named map ranges is interesting
20100218 21:39:13< ilor> mordante: for decorations like signposts or other doodads -- those are part of how the map looks, and belong in the map file
20100218 21:39:43< mordante> ilor, I prefer to keep them completely out so you don't have the question why can I add item foo but not bar
20100218 21:39:51< esr> A design goal: *No scenario WML should ever have to mention numerical coordinates.*  Instead it should always be possible to refer to named locations embeddedd in the map file.
20100218 21:40:10< mordante> like I said I like that idea
20100218 21:40:23< happygrue> Ivanovic: ah, whoops.
20100218 21:40:46< mordante> and if we implement that the editor would indeed be the place to add that 
20100218 21:41:08< mordante> happygrue, Ivanovic I'll post a reply
20100218 21:42:13< ilor> mordante: and I think decoration items should be in the editor as well. It migh encourage more such doodads to appear, and will be an easy way to add variety to maps
20100218 21:42:40< ilor> also it will allow placing decorations and seeing how they look in a spot much more conveniently
20100218 21:42:56< shadowmaster> esr: is that your design goal, really?!
20100218 21:43:11< ilor> shadowmaster: what's not to like?
20100218 21:43:28< shadowmaster> I think the "no scenario WML" part is a bit absurd
20100218 21:43:41< ilor> ??
20100218 21:43:50< shadowmaster> I'd prefer "scenario WML shouldn't always have to mention numerical coordinates"
20100218 21:43:59< zookeeper> or "usually"
20100218 21:44:08< esr> How's that different?
20100218 21:44:09< zookeeper> i can't say i really disagree with that goal
20100218 21:44:19< shadowmaster> otherwise, I imagine having to fill the map with special markers for everything I do in the scenario
20100218 21:44:35< zookeeper> it's not like you still couldn't use the numerical coordinates if you wanted to, so it doesn't matter
20100218 21:45:02< esr> shadowmaster: I didn't say WML could *never* use coordinates, just that it should never have to.
20100218 21:45:09< shadowmaster> alright
20100218 21:45:18< ilor> shadowmaster: it's special markers in the map, or magic numbers in the scenario
20100218 21:46:09< esr> ilor is right.  One or the other, there's no third chice.
20100218 21:46:10< mordante> shadowmaster, would be nice if you have x,y or position, besides x,y is needed for backwards compatibility
20100218 21:50:14< shadowmaster> I wonder how often people redraw maps causing "metadata" to become obsolete
20100218 21:51:15< esr> shadowmaster: It's happened to me.
20100218 21:51:27< shadowmaster> at least IME, whenever I feel the need to redraw (rather than simply revise) a map, I want to wipe out *everything* (including most dialogue)
20100218 21:52:34< ilor> shadowmaster: it's much nicer to work with named ranges than it is to work with magic number pairs, and that's in general
20100218 21:52:51< esr> Note, everyone: these features will have one odd second-order consequence.  wmllint/wmlscope will need to be able to find a scenarios maop file in order to do label integrity checks amd the like.  
20100218 21:53:13< esr> That means map-declaration macros have to go away :-)
20100218 21:53:39< mordante> esr, what do you exactly mean with that?
20100218 21:55:02< esr> Some mainline campaignms declare scenarop maps witj mcros that abstract away path locations and the map= attribute.  That womn't be allowable anymore, because wmlscope/wmllint will need to *see* that stuff.
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20100218 21:56:35< fendrin> hmmmm
20100218 21:56:50< shadowmaster> good that I don't use wmllint anyway ;)
20100218 21:57:23< fendrin> currently the editor takes a filename and looks for map_data=. It doesn't care what is around that.
20100218 21:58:04< shadowmaster> and I edit maps, not scenarios
20100218 21:58:11< fendrin> It can however recognize that map_data= is set to a file include. 
20100218 21:58:32< fendrin> shadowmaster: But the map editor is able to open scenario cfg files.
20100218 21:58:39< shadowmaster> yes, but I don't use that, I said
20100218 21:59:02< ilor> fendrin: it just forwards to the relevant map file
20100218 21:59:11< fendrin> shadowmaster: Neither do I, just discovered it while reading the code.
20100218 21:59:23< ilor> (or edits the map data in-place if you're evil, or want to edit the test scenario)
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20100218 22:00:24< fendrin> I am going to grep the [map] wml tag that is located in the embeded file currently.
20100218 22:00:30< fendrin> That seems to work fine.
20100218 22:01:09< shadowmaster> a [map] tag in the map code?
20100218 22:01:26< fendrin> That way I can open a scenario file in the editor and have the defined locations from the scenario file.
20100218 22:01:28< shadowmaster> e.g. inside the map_data string?
20100218 22:02:19< fendrin> shadowmaster: No, I don't touch the map_date= attribute.
20100218 22:03:00< mordante> esr, I think that stuff is used a lot in the terrain macros as well
20100218 22:03:17< shadowmaster> fendrin: wait, so where is the [map] tag?
20100218 22:04:03< mordante> and to be honest I think it's a bad idea to disallow things that are valid to accommodate tools, why break perfectly valid user code if they never intend to use wmlling
20100218 22:04:07< mordante> wmllint*
20100218 22:04:07< esr> mordante: Not a problem as long as my tools don't have to parse them.  wmlscope gave up on the terrain macros long ago. :-)
20100218 22:04:42< mordante> it didn't love them? ;-)
20100218 22:04:54< shadowmaster> yes, but you still forced me to create a duplicate of a images/ file for TRoW :(
20100218 22:04:59< esr> mordante: I sympathize, but wmllint is what keeps the mauntainance load from mainline WML bearable. 
20100218 22:05:04< fendrin> shadowmaster: you can have it inside a file with the map data. or in a scenario file.
20100218 22:05:33< fendrin> And that is doable without changing anything to current implementation. I am just adding things.
20100218 22:05:34< mordante> esr, I know it helps us for mainline, I just don't want to force it on the campaign designers
20100218 22:05:44< shadowmaster> fendrin: I think I don't understand still where you want to put the [map] tag
20100218 22:06:13-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100218 22:06:20< esr> Fine, so we unscramble their macros when we nainline stuff.  No big deal, I'm used to issues like thus.
20100218 22:06:23< fendrin> [scenario] [map] [item] [unit] ....
20100218 22:06:24< shadowmaster> in the first place, map_data= currently doesn't point to a file in particular; it points to data which is included by the preprocessor using the {} directive which points to a file in particular
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20100218 22:06:34< shadowmaster> [map] :| I see
20100218 22:07:01< esr> Radical idea:
20100218 22:07:06< fendrin> shadowmaster: or you can have it in the file with the map data. 
20100218 22:07:29< shadowmaster> how so?
20100218 22:07:30< mordante> esr, exactly just like that in mainline we force a lot of macro parameters to have fixed names 
20100218 22:07:43< esr> mordante: Yes.
20100218 22:07:48< mordante> so your tools can lower the maintenance burden
20100218 22:08:59< esr> The direction I'm seeing this going is that we add some specialized WML as an optional part of map files.
20100218 22:09:38< shadowmaster> ...I don't understand anymore if map files are supposed to keep using the map format, or they are supposed to be one or two things depending on the author's choice:
20100218 22:10:06< shadowmaster> 1) a hideous mapformat+WML combination; or 2) a WML document that also includes mapformat in a quoted string attribute
20100218 22:10:56< esr> Hmm.  Choice 2 would simplify things.
20100218 22:11:09< shadowmaster> emphasis on hideous, for 1, btw
20100218 22:11:17< mordante> esr, I think we first need to discuss/state what we want to achieve and then look what's the best way to implement it, not the other way around
20100218 22:11:32< esr> Agtreed.  I've been trying to do that.
20100218 22:11:38 * shadowmaster also happens to like ML posts for this kind of issues.
20100218 22:11:45 * mordante too
20100218 22:11:53< shadowmaster> (or alternatively, Developer's Discussions if you need to get graphic)
20100218 22:11:59< esr> ilor: still here?
20100218 22:12:13< mordante> no dev-ml is the place to discuss big things
20100218 22:12:14< ilor> esr: yes
20100218 22:12:31< shadowmaster> mordante: well, nowadays anyway :(
20100218 22:12:47< shadowmaster> which makes me wonder if we shouldn't just lock Developer's Discussions.
20100218 22:12:54< esr> ilor: Are you motivated enough to through a design proposal for how to put static map attributes in map files in the ML?
20100218 22:12:57< fendrin> shadowmaster: The mapeditor searches for the map_data= string. It can be anywhere in the file, doesn't matter where. If the attributes value is a file include the editor will take care about that file. I am going to search in every file that is included in that process for the [map] tag. That gives you all possibilities.
20100218 22:13:06< mordante> esr, ok, then lets not start with what to do with the map format/WML since I see that as implementation details
20100218 22:13:31< esr> I'm good with that.  I can post some design goals.
20100218 22:13:45< mordante> yes please
20100218 22:13:51< shadowmaster> fendrin: okay, so you are including a WML document inside the value of the map_data= string, right?
20100218 22:14:11< fendrin> shadowmaster: No, exactly *not*.
20100218 22:14:36< esr> I see where fendrij is going.  I think he's got the right idea
20100218 22:14:51< shadowmaster> I see that I want a formal specification to understand where he's going :7
20100218 22:14:57< shadowmaster> s.7./.
20100218 22:15:09< ilor> the map file right now is a wml file anyway
20100218 22:15:10< fendrin> esr: It is not my idea. I have seen it in the code that is already there. Like it was always meant to be so.
20100218 22:15:52< shadowmaster> okay, wow, the WML parser can handle "lines, like, this" than don't seem to be WML attributes?
20100218 22:17:11< shadowmaster> that would expose a different problem that I'm not sure how it'd be handled by the parser
20100218 22:17:57< ilor> shadowmaster yeah I forgot about that --;
20100218 22:18:11< shadowmaster> although, sure, there *is* a way around it if you want to spend extra time parsing every character in the included file and escaping quotes, etc.
20100218 22:18:57< ilor> there might not be an easy way for straighforward compatibility
20100218 22:19:59< fendrin> ilor, shadowmaster: What are you talking about?
20100218 22:20:06-!- Blarumyrran [~Blarumyrr@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has quit [Quit: Lahkun]
20100218 22:20:40< ilor> fendrin: the problem of parsing a map file with the WML parser
20100218 22:20:42< shadowmaster> fendrin: let's say that you have map_data="{~add-ons/Epic_Fail/maps/scenario1.map}" and scenario1.map contains something like [item] image="foobar.png"
20100218 22:21:11< shadowmaster> the quotes in scenario1.map are unescaped, and...? (yeah, that's as far as my knowledge of the parser goes, admittedly)
20100218 22:22:40< shadowmaster> I'm not sure if that would cause the parser to choke on the parent document (from which scenario1.map has been included by the preprocessor). Sure, you could make your editor automatically escape the contents of scenario1.map before saving to disk
20100218 22:23:07< shadowmaster> I tend to be afraid of such kind of massive operations with strings, though :|
20100218 22:23:42< fendrin> Well, I have to repeat it a third time: There will be no change on the map_data= attribute. It will never include any wml. 
20100218 22:24:50< DesertPanther> Noyga, are you noy?
20100218 22:25:03< Noyga> nope
20100218 22:25:03< shadowmaster> DesertPanther: no, they are different people
20100218 22:25:10< Noyga> i'm a different person
20100218 22:25:16< DesertPanther> oh okay, sorry :)
20100218 22:25:20< shadowmaster> fendrin: okay, let's get "graphical". You  mean something like this? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d44ef727e
20100218 22:26:05< fendrin> shadowmaster: Yes, that would work. But having the map_data at toplevel would work as well.
20100218 22:26:36< shadowmaster> yeah and it'll work without changing our current WML scheme too, since [item]s, [label]s and [sound_source]s can go at [scenario] level :|
20100218 22:26:51< mordante> I'm off night
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20100218 22:27:24< shadowmaster> I'm a stupid short-minded ogre and I can't picture your ideas if you don't post a example WML mock-up
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20100218 22:28:39< fendrin> shadowmaster: I think you got it right. Your example code is just what I am doing now.
20100218 22:28:57< esr> shadowmaster: I don't dislike your syntax, but he entire [map] content needs to live in the map file so that the editor can handle it as a unit.
20100218 22:29:07< shadowmaster> okay... but wait, so what's the purpose of the [map] tag then, fendrin ?
20100218 22:29:29< fendrin> shadowmaster: I don't want the editor to write in the scenario itself.
20100218 22:29:37< esr> It;s a container for the map data so that .map files can be proper WML documents.
20100218 22:29:51< esr> And what fendrin said, too.
20100218 22:30:04< shadowmaster> ahh, now I get it (phew)
20100218 22:30:20< esr> fendrin's proposal = win :-)
20100218 22:30:34< shadowmaster> yeah, but it feels much better with an example, no?
20100218 22:30:39< esr> Yes.
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20100218 22:31:50< esr> Good feature: Existing mao file to fendrin syntax is an easy, unambiguous transformation.  wmllint could do it easily.
20100218 22:32:51< shadowmaster> I understand that the format of the map itself wouldn't change, just the way it is handled with the editor as part of a WML container
20100218 22:34:02< fendrin> The editor doesn't care about wml. It greps everything behind map_data="..." in the file. No mather what is in the context. It just doesn't care.
20100218 22:34:48< shadowmaster> wasn't the whole purpose of this allowing the editor to work with [item]s and such?
20100218 22:35:13< shadowmaster> (and let's not talk about what the editor *does* at the moment; that only makes it more confusing)
20100218 22:35:48< fendrin> Okay, let's talk it through step by step.
20100218 22:36:13< fendrin> The editor is called on the commandline. wesnoth-debug -e a_map
20100218 22:36:59< fendrin> That map is loaded and parsed by my new code. I search for [map] tags and store the information. 
20100218 22:38:48< fendrin> If the file is a pure map file this will work since there is no map tag, only attriburtes the editor will continue as normal.
20100218 22:39:14< fendrin> If it is a scenario file with external map the [map] tag will be found in the scenario file.
20100218 22:39:44< fendrin> The editor will find it's map_data= attribute, follow the file include and work as normal.
20100218 22:40:36< fendrin> If the scenario has embeded map data, it will be the same as in the last case, just that the editor is not following the file include.
20100218 22:41:16< fendrin> And now the last case: Map data and [map] tag is in an external file. This will be handled like it is an scenario file.
20100218 22:41:29< fendrin> Read the map tag, continue as normal.
20100218 22:41:55< fendrin> In the last case there is no double quotes around the map data and the parsing will go well.
20100218 22:42:02< fendrin> That is it.
20100218 22:42:31< fendrin> Every piece of code to handle that is already part of the editor at least since ilor redid it.
20100218 22:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 77 bugs, 248 feature requests, 8 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100218 22:42:40< fendrin> shadowmaster: Any questions left?
20100218 22:43:49< shadowmaster> um, yes, what will [map] contain, besides the map_data itself, that can be modified using the editor? I kind of lost track of that
20100218 22:44:19< shadowmaster> (notably, map_data could be renamed to data to sound less redundant in the future)
20100218 22:44:55< fendrin> [item] [unit] [label] [map_location <-- what esr wants to avoid coordinates] maybe more later
20100218 22:45:07< fendrin> [sound_source]
20100218 22:46:09< shadowmaster> I think map_location is a redundant name.
20100218 22:46:28< fendrin> named_location?
20100218 22:46:38< shadowmaster> and yes, don't forget [sound_source]s. I worked hard to make them usable outside of [event]s ;)
20100218 22:47:15< shadowmaster> maybe marker, location, element...
20100218 22:47:20< fendrin> Everything that works outside of events should be done with less effort on the game engine side of the project.
20100218 22:49:09< ilor> [unit]s probably won't be a priority
20100218 22:50:20< fendrin> ilor: Units is the most work. I will do it the last if ever.
20100218 22:50:58< fendrin> esr: Are you writting to the dev-ml now?
20100218 22:51:31< shadowmaster> ...
20100218 22:51:44< shadowmaster> I'm imagining a fully-featured map editor that allows me to preview sound_source areas, etc. :(
20100218 22:52:22< fendrin> shadowmaster: you want them to be heard?
20100218 22:52:34< shadowmaster> no, I was thinking of visual cues
20100218 22:52:55< shadowmaster> such as white circumfrences for the fade radius, yellow circumferences for the max-volume radius
20100218 22:53:13< ilor> shadowmaster: doable
20100218 22:53:30< shadowmaster> especially if we go OpenGL ;)
20100218 22:53:54< fendrin> shadowmaster: First there will be labels: SoundSource: blah.ogg range=3
20100218 22:54:56< fendrin> ilor: Can a folder full of png files be loaded in a editor terrain group?
20100218 22:55:21< ilor> fendrin: terrains come from [terrain] tags in WML
20100218 22:55:48< fendrin> ilor: I thought so. The question is, is there a lower interfoce to feed it just images.
20100218 22:55:55 * shadowmaster thinks that with so many planned features it could be a good idea to try branching 18 early.
20100218 22:56:08< shadowmaster> s/18/1.8/
20100218 22:56:13< ilor> fendrin: not really, haven't looked reall
20100218 22:56:22< ilor> a terrain is more than just an image anyway
20100218 22:57:11< esr> fendrin: yes, I'm drafting the ml post.
20100218 22:57:42< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: the last time we branched early it was a catastrophe
20100218 22:57:56< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: that is basically everyone stopped working on stable and went right for trunk
20100218 22:58:03< Ivanovic> and things became even slower than before
20100218 22:58:05< ilor> Ivanovic: when was that?
20100218 22:58:08< shadowmaster> hey, 1.2 wasn't half-bad
20100218 22:58:09< shadowmaster> for 1.2
20100218 22:58:38< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: instead, you now have people tempted to spam /branches with trunk forks :P
20100218 22:58:46< Ivanovic> the time it took then to get 1.2 ready was really bad
20100218 22:59:07< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: since people know that it is a pita merging them back they tend to not branch unless it is really required
20100218 22:59:08< Ivanovic> ;)
20100218 22:59:13< shadowmaster> and yes, I'm one of those people, although I need to finish with the design phase first
20100218 22:59:51< shadowmaster> I don't think I'll have time to implement persistent variables later
20100218 23:01:48< fendrin> shadowmaster: forking now would be a good thing.
20100218 23:02:38< fendrin> I don't believe that ilor and mordante would let the mp lobby unfinished for 1.8 and that es the rest that is missing.
20100218 23:02:40< Getty> mordante: i tried that system and it failed horrible for me (keep in my, i dont try it with wesnoth)
20100218 23:02:48< Getty> oh he is gone
20100218 23:04:53< Ivanovic> Getty: he does read the logs
20100218 23:05:00< Ivanovic> so expect a reply in some 20h
20100218 23:05:05< Getty> :D
20100218 23:05:37< Ivanovic> okay, might be earlier if he joins in his lunchbreak (sometimes he does so)
20100218 23:07:22< shadowmaster> yeah, what else is broken in 1.7 anyway? :P
20100218 23:07:37< shadowmaster> (let me think, I don't want to know)
20100218 23:08:03< shadowmaster> ah yeah, "WML got horribly strict since a few versions ago"
20100218 23:09:13-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100218 23:09:20< shadowmaster> fendrin: was jetrel actually contated re https://gna.org/bugs/?15396?
20100218 23:09:39< shadowmaster> I'm not sure he pays a lot f attention to his email inbox
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20100218 23:10:41< YogiHH> hello
20100218 23:11:04< YogiHH> fendrin: any preferences which bug you want me to fix first?
20100218 23:13:31< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: what is nrmally done with "bug" reports such as this? https://gna.org/bugs/?15330
20100218 23:14:00< shadowmaster> (since the solution is *editing* the preferences file itself)
20100218 23:15:30< loonycyborg> Tell him about ctrl-f :P
20100218 23:16:04-!- shadowm [~chatzilla@190.22.103.22] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100218 23:16:21< loonycyborg> If wesnoth launched in fullscreen mode by default that wouldn't be an issue.
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20100218 23:19:16< Ivanovic> genau!
20100218 23:19:24< Ivanovic> ups, wrong tab
20100218 23:19:26< esr> ?
20100218 23:19:39< esr> genau =?
20100218 23:19:55< Ivanovic> it equals "exactly!"
20100218 23:20:08-!- shadowm_chatzill [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Client Quit]
20100218 23:20:51< esr> Oh, that's weird. I typed = followed by ?  and my client gave back a ? in a yellow orb....thought it was a smiley.
20100218 23:21:17< shadowmaster> chatzilla sucks ;)
20100218 23:21:39< shadowmaster> it doesn't display join/part/quit messages for some reason. That's less than useful
20100218 23:21:45< esr> I try moving to something else occasionally.
20100218 23:21:56< esr> Hm, iyt does for me.
20100218 23:22:13< shadowmaster> okay, then I wonder how you managed to make it so. I'm trying to figure it out for someone else
20100218 23:22:39< esr> I think it defaulted to that...
20100218 23:23:02< shadowmaster> hm, and I am using default settings, mostly
20100218 23:23:33 * esr is listing to a Polish prog-metal band(!) that rocks pretty hard.
20100218 23:23:40< esr> listening
20100218 23:24:00< esr> I ddn't know they made prog-metal bands in Poland...
20100218 23:24:27< shadowmaster> I prefer to live with the false notion that Polish is unpronounceable.
20100218 23:24:39< esr> Wgat's false about it? :-)
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20100218 23:27:06< ilor> esr: what's the band called? ;)
20100218 23:27:18< esr> Riverside.
20100218 23:27:33< DesertPanther> noy, hey
20100218 23:27:42< esr> Courtesy of Pandora Radio; I'd never have tripped over them otherwise.
20100218 23:28:41< esr> I seeded a station with the "Liquid Tension II" album and it's been pouring a river of prog-metal and fusion jazz at me ever since. 
20100218 23:28:51< ilor> shadowmaster: btw, I can assure you Polish is pronounceable :P
20100218 23:28:55< esr> (I love that stuff.)
20100218 23:29:45< ilor> esr: haven't heard of them, then again I'm into heavier stuff
20100218 23:30:01< esr> Tool?
20100218 23:30:19< ilor> death-ish metal mostly
20100218 23:30:53< esr> Ah.  Not intricate enough for me; I like instrumentals with multilayeted arrangements.
20100218 23:31:02< zookeeper> regarding the map stuff: i'd like to remind everyone that we don't even need separate map files anymore. the editor should be perfectly capable of editing maps straight from scenario files.
20100218 23:31:19< esr> Now playing, Jordan Rudess's "Feeding the Wheel: album.
20100218 23:31:47< ilor> esr: some of the more technical death stuff is rather intricate
20100218 23:32:00< esr> ilor: Recommendations?
20100218 23:32:34< ilor> Amon Amarth, viking-themed band
20100218 23:33:23< esr> zookeeper: I think that capability sghould remain mostly theoretical,  Editing scenario files with large embedded maps in them is a pain.
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20100218 23:34:36< esr> ilor: I might like that.  Heard a Faroese band called "Tyr" yesterday  that describes itself a folk-Viking-metal.  Liked it.
20100218 23:35:02< zookeeper> esr, a pain for whom or in what way?
20100218 23:35:25< esr> A pain for *me*.  I've had to do it. :-)
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20100218 23:36:30< zookeeper> i still don't see what you mean
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20100218 23:37:06< ilor> zookeeper: it's a large blob of data in an otherwise human-friendly file
20100218 23:37:29< zookeeper> well, sure
20100218 23:38:18< shadowmaster> it's still useful for the self-contained test scenario
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20100218 23:38:36< esr> What ilor said.  It's not a huge pain, but it's a definite speed bumpo when I'm trying to get work done.
20100218 23:38:57< esr> And I agree with shadowmaster too, tHat's a special case.
20100218 23:39:25 * esr just seeded an Amon Amarth station
20100218 23:40:01< zookeeper> ok, was just saying
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20100218 23:41:00< esr> ilor: OK, I'm listening to "Runes to Mty Memory" from "With Oden On Our Side".
20100218 23:41:15< fendrin> YogiHH: hello
20100218 23:41:24< YogiHH> hey fendrin
20100218 23:41:40< fendrin> yes, the one that prevents from going on to the next scenario is important.
20100218 23:43:07< fendrin> YogiHH: You didn't get it with your way of playtesting. If the players leave scenario1 in sequence, what is the normal case if you are only testing alone, everything works fine. But if they go on at the same time what is more likely in a real world play the assertion is sure.
20100218 23:43:30< YogiHH> fendrin: i see
20100218 23:45:15< ilor> esr: don't recall that one, I'm not quite on the "know all songs" level yet, off the top of my head I'd say "Pursuit of Vikings" is a nice one. latest album is good too.
20100218 23:45:23< YogiHH> fendrin: have you tested single player campaigns yet?
20100218 23:46:48-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100218 23:49:42< fendrin> YogiHH: Yes, singleplayer seems to be fine. No problems there.
20100218 23:49:52< YogiHH> nice :)
20100218 23:50:49< fendrin> zookeeper: This is only true if hardcoded and not called by a macro. The editor can't handle macros, so it fails for most scenarios in mainline.
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20100218 23:52:10< shadowmaster> hm, AFAIK most scenarios in mainline don't use macros to *include* map data
20100218 23:52:26< shadowmaster> well, besides including the map data file itself using the macro/file inclusion {}
20100218 23:52:42< fendrin> Realy?
20100218 23:53:01< shadowmaster> map_data="{campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/maps/01_The_Elves_Besieged.map}"
20100218 23:53:05< shadowmaster> no macro involved
20100218 23:53:44< fendrin> Right, maybe it's LoW and DM only.
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20100218 23:54:21< shadowmaster> hm.
20100218 23:54:24< fendrin> shadowmaster: And no, there was no sign from jetrel yet.
20100218 23:54:42< shadowmaster> yeah, that's LoW... and DM...
20100218 23:55:24< shadowmaster> are you sure you didn't mainline a disguised copy of IftU instead of LoW? I always thought that since esr was involved in the development of those, they were always wmllint-aware
20100218 23:55:48< shadowmaster> then again I had to run wmlindent myself, so yeah.
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20100218 23:57:49< shadowmaster> I want to paint Midnight_Carnival white so his posts become invisible
20100218 23:58:10< fendrin> shadowmaster: Most code parts of LoW are between #wmllint: validate-off and on.  
--- Log closed Fri Feb 19 00:00:55 2010