--- Log opened Sat Feb 20 00:00:04 2010
20100220 00:06:28< Noyga> n8
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20100220 00:09:38< Mythological> gn Noyga
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20100220 01:00:54< shadowmaster> Mythological: campaignserver_client.py isn't the add-ons server client script anymore
20100220 01:01:07< shadowmaster> you want /data/tools/wesnoth_addon_manager instead
20100220 01:01:40< shadowmaster> campaignserver_client.py appears to be a dependency of the latter
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20100220 01:28:28< Mythological> shadowmaster: is wesnoth_addon_manager a python script?
20100220 01:30:04< shadowmaster> yes
20100220 01:47:05< Mythological> it works; thank you shadowmaster
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20100220 01:49:27< Tonepoet> Hi.
20100220 01:53:12< Mythological> hi Tonepoet
20100220 01:53:35< Tonepoet> Ah hey, how're you Myth?
20100220 01:54:17< Mythological> okay I suppose
20100220 01:54:53< Mythological> what made you dissapear so suddenly before I could even get to answer you earlier today?
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20100220 01:55:29< Tonepoet> Oh. I'd been on for a while, I thought. I thought you were AFK.
20100220 01:55:47< Mythological> no
20100220 01:55:55< Tonepoet> So an errant thought ran into my mind and I started on a project kinda.
20100220 01:56:00< Mythological> I suppose I must have been lagging
20100220 01:56:36< Mythological> from my point of view, I got all your whispers at once, and then you were gone
20100220 01:56:55< Tonepoet> That's probably it. I wasn't on too, too long. Must've been about five minutes though.
20100220 01:57:48< Tonepoet> Pablo asked if you were AFK and I responded "probably" if you still have the window up.
20100220 01:58:40< Mythological> no, a problem made me restart the client several times
20100220 01:58:56< Mythological> I'm almost done with it
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20100220 01:59:14< Tonepoet> Ah. I see.
20100220 02:01:40< Tonepoet> What's the problem?
20100220 02:02:00< Mythological> do you remember Extended Era?
20100220 02:02:09< Tonepoet> Vaguely.
20100220 02:02:21< Mythological> I'm trying to get it up and running again
20100220 02:02:27< Tonepoet> It's the one with the fireball flinging troll and the weird nagas.
20100220 02:02:33< Mythological> right
20100220 02:02:58< Mythological> do you like the troll mage?
20100220 02:03:40< Tonepoet> It's an okay unit. My problem with E.E. is that there's a big power gap between the added units and the normal ones.
20100220 02:04:04< Mythological> it is more a problem with the factions
20100220 02:04:17< Mythological> I dont think the units are overpowered per se
20100220 02:04:26< Mythological> but feel free to prove otherwise
20100220 02:05:34< Mythological> a porssibe problem is that EE factions sometimes have twice the number of available recruits compared to the default factions, which makes them more powerful
20100220 02:05:38< Tonepoet> Nah, I'm not one of those proof people. I play the game mostly based upon observation, perception and general advice.
20100220 02:06:53< Tonepoet> I never really played the E.E. exclusive half of it really. I think I was still exclusively a Northerner's player for the most part.
20100220 02:08:17< Tonepoet> Though I vaguely recall it had a rouge mage.
20100220 02:08:38< Mythological> yes, it has a rogue faction
20100220 02:08:52< Mythological> and a dwarven one, instead of knalgans
20100220 02:09:11< Tonepoet> I thought it had outlaws, knalgans and dwarves. XD
20100220 02:09:28 * Tonepoet probably played a very old version
20100220 02:09:48< Mythological> well, EE has two paralel eras
20100220 02:10:14< Mythological> one of them includes the default factions together with EE exclusive ones
20100220 02:10:34< Tonepoet> Ah.
20100220 02:11:36< Tonepoet> What was the era with the beserker dog? Was that E.E. too or was it... I think it was Era of Myths come to think about it.
20100220 02:12:12< Mythological> right
20100220 02:12:47< Mythological> it is EE chaos dog
20100220 02:13:28< Tonepoet> Kinda reminded me of Interceptor from Final Fantasy VI in terms of design.
20100220 02:13:46< Mythological> I am clueless about that
20100220 02:13:48< Tonepoet> Not that there are many Final Fantasy fans here.
20100220 02:14:09< Mythological> I never played RPGs, despite owning a few good ones
20100220 02:15:40< Mythological> at least not intenisvely
20100220 02:15:59< Tonepoet> They're interesting I think although you have to be into exploration and storytelling as well as the combative aspect.
20100220 02:16:43< Tonepoet> Because they dwelve a lot deeper into those regards than most video games.
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20100220 02:17:33< Mythological> guess so
20100220 02:18:29< Mythological> althow any genre can have a good storyline, if the designers put enough effort into it
20100220 02:18:51< Tonepoet> Going into the towns, talking to the non-playable characters, working your way through the preplotted events. It's something like an interactive movie, except with more options. And that is true Myth.
20100220 02:19:42< ancestral> I've heard Wesnoth being compared to the game Myth before
20100220 02:19:48< Tonepoet> It's one of the things to love about Cave Story, aside from its solidity as a platformer. I find it interesting that Jetryl's current avatar is from the game.
20100220 02:19:50< ancestral> The recalling of units in particular
20100220 02:20:15< Tonepoet> Myth: The Fallen Lords?
20100220 02:20:42< ancestral> Yeah
20100220 02:21:02< ancestral> Oh, you were referring to Mr. Mythology
20100220 02:21:05< ancestral> All the same
20100220 02:21:06< ancestral> :)
20100220 02:21:12< ancestral> Or Ms.
20100220 02:22:19< Tonepoet> The blizzard RTS? Not really. I've played a fair bit of that. You start with all of your units handed to you. You get to keep vets. but you don't really have a choice in what you use. I suppose it could lend itself a lot of backstarting though. XD
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20100220 02:24:44< Tonepoet> Although I guess they're about as similar as an RTS and a TBS could be.
20100220 02:24:52< ancestral> Tonepoet: Not Blizzard, but Bungie
20100220 02:25:06< Tonepoet> Ah. Mixup. XD
20100220 02:25:22< ancestral> Actually, GoD and produced by Bungie?
20100220 02:25:49< Tonepoet> http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/0/89360_41500_front.jpg
20100220 02:25:56< ancestral> Okay it was Bungie, nevermind
20100220 02:26:10< ancestral> They sold it off basically
20100220 02:26:38< ancestral> Gosh I wish Bungie would make something new, or revisit something old
20100220 02:26:42< ancestral> Anything but Halo please
20100220 02:28:42< Tonepoet> Hmm. It was a nice game. Very simple.  Also rewards units for gruesome acts of war by making them fight more effectively like Wesnoth and of course gunpowder dwarves (although theirs used grenades)
20100220 02:31:04< Tonepoet> Nothing like ZoC though, it had true ranged, your units merely had functions as opposed to readable statistics and RTS games are naturally not tile based, since they flow in real time.
20100220 02:32:55< ancestral> Modern RTS games
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20100220 02:33:03< ancestral> Old school ones were
20100220 02:33:46< Tonepoet> I remember playing that on Mac OS classic so it's not exactly what I'd call modern per se.
20100220 02:34:04< Tonepoet> But I suppose you're talking about even older.
20100220 02:34:18< ancestral> Dune, Warcraft, etc.
20100220 02:34:27< ancestral> C&C
20100220 02:35:01< Mythological> Dune 1? I wound not call that one a RTS
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20100220 02:40:54< ancestral> They say it was
20100220 02:41:51< ancestral> Oh, maybe Dune II
20100220 02:42:03< ancestral> Or it was coined when Dune II came out
20100220 02:42:31< ancestral> Ah okay… there were a handful of games prior that were considered RTS
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20100220 02:45:20< Mythological> yes, Dune II is one of the oldest RTS games out there
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20100220 02:45:56< Mythological> I think it was created by westwood, because it has the same interface as C&C series
20100220 02:46:21< Mythological> but the predecessor of Dune II was an adventure game
20100220 02:46:52< Mythological> not always all the games of a series belong to the same genre ;)
20100220 02:48:00< Mythological> IIRC, they were completely different from each other in the gameplay; the only common thing they had ware the story, the name and the company which published them
20100220 02:48:58< Tonepoet> Based off of the books I suppose? I never read those.
20100220 02:55:00< Mythological> either that or the movie
20100220 02:56:36< Mythological> havent you watched the movie, Tonepoet?
20100220 02:56:44< Tonepoet> Nope.
20100220 02:56:51< Tonepoet> Not much of a movie goer.
20100220 02:57:27< ancestral> Patrick Stewart stars in it
20100220 02:57:31< ancestral> And Sting
20100220 02:57:32< Tonepoet> My primary visual media input is usually either japanese animation or video games.
20100220 02:57:47< ancestral> I don't know if I've seen it… I did see the remake on Sci-Fi though that was a while ago
20100220 02:58:06< Tonepoet> Never saw Patrick Stewart outside of his Picard role really. Must be awesome though: TNG was my favorite T.V. show.
20100220 02:58:27< Tonepoet> When it aired.
20100220 02:58:47< ancestral> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(film)#Reception
20100220 02:58:59< ancestral> Ebert hated it
20100220 02:59:27< Tonepoet> Ebert's opinion is invalid without Siskel's input. =P
20100220 02:59:35< Tonepoet> Too bad Siskel is dead...
20100220 03:00:26< Tonepoet> Roper seemed too agreeable.
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20100220 03:00:38< ancestral> Ebert is having health issues
20100220 03:00:39< ancestral> Poor guy
20100220 03:00:47< ancestral> Fortunately he
20100220 03:00:53< Tonepoet> That's too bad.
20100220 03:01:15< ancestral> He's a writer first and foremost, but cannot speak due to removing part of this throat (thorax? larynx?) due to cancer
20100220 03:01:46< Tonepoet> When did Ebert lose his ability to speak?
20100220 03:02:12< ancestral> Couple years ago?
20100220 03:03:06< ancestral> Thyroid cancer
20100220 03:03:42< Tonepoet> Geeze, that's a fate that shouldn't befall any man. I suppose as a critic a lot of people wished he would just shut up because they didn't like his bad reviews but I mean, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't have meant it to go quite like that...
20100220 03:03:57< Tonepoet> And by bad reviews, I mean thumbs down, not low quality.
20100220 03:04:35< ancestral> Cancer shouldn't befall anyone
20100220 03:04:37< ancestral> But it does
20100220 03:05:14< ancestral> "Although doctors have asked him to allow them to make one more attempt to restore his voice, Ebert has refused, indicating that he is done with surgery, and will also probably decline significant intervention even if his cancer returns, as the last procedure he underwent did more harm than good."
20100220 03:07:25< Tonepoet> Hmm, I'll take it that he did so with more than a simple thumbs down.
20100220 03:08:51< Tonepoet> What happened with his last surgery that could be worse than not having his voice though? Sends chills down my spine.
20100220 03:09:18< ancestral> Well, I think general weakness
20100220 03:09:44< ancestral> But you might read the Wikipedia article
20100220 03:15:51< Tonepoet> Maybe not the wiki article per se buut it seems that he has a blog
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20100220 03:22:26< ancestral> He does
20100220 03:22:53< ancestral> He writes about how he uses Alex, a voice in OS X, and wrote about his alcoholism back in the day
20100220 03:23:41< ancestral> He and a few of the anchors when he was on TV in Chicago went to an AA meeting after the evening news and a guy in the group thought he was crazy because he had just seen them on TV
20100220 03:24:01< Tonepoet> Ah the good ol' mac voices, I had a lot of fun with those back in the day.
20100220 03:25:23< Tonepoet> "Heh. That can't really be Ebert can it? I must remember not to eat anymore week old pizza with tabasco sauce anymore."
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20100220 03:38:48< ancestral> So is it just me, or am I the only one saddened when people drop off "The Battle for" and just call it "Wesnoth"?
20100220 03:40:26< Mythological> I dont know
20100220 03:40:38< shadowmaster> well, considering that the real "The Battle for Wesnoth" scenario is crap, well..
20100220 03:40:39< sevis> I don't mind it at all.
20100220 03:40:54< ancestral> shadowmaster: haha
20100220 03:41:02< shadowmaster> also, take a look at the website; it's Battle for Wesnoth, and the "The" is optional
20100220 03:41:18< shadowmaster> and we developers also call it wesnoth, so yeah
20100220 03:41:28< ancestral> Or someone is lazy? (No offense intended to anyone!)
20100220 03:41:32< Mythological> if we make an analogy to the real people, moving from "The Battle for Wesnoth" to "Wesnoth" represents closenes
20100220 03:41:43< ancestral> So has the name changed?
20100220 03:41:55< shadowmaster> no, it hasn't.
20100220 03:42:08< ancestral> So, the name hasn't changed yet we're calling it something different…
20100220 03:42:08< shadowmaster> the main executable has been called wesnoth since CVS versions AFAIK
20100220 03:42:23< ancestral> So why not change it for real then?
20100220 03:42:27< shadowmaster> and how many people call it "Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia" anyway?
20100220 03:42:33< ancestral> That's not the same
20100220 03:42:42< shadowmaster> or "Microsoft(R) Windows XP(tm??)"
20100220 03:42:51< ancestral> That's also not the same
20100220 03:43:11< ancestral> Maybe Mozilla Firefox
20100220 03:43:41< shadowmaster> okay, how about this: Dave also calls it Wesnoth most of the time
20100220 03:44:03< shadowmaster> there, you have nothing to be sad about. Even the creator is inconsistent in regards to naming :P
20100220 03:44:09< ancestral> So
20100220 03:44:14< ancestral> Let's change it to "Wesnoth"
20100220 03:44:24< ancestral> :D
20100220 03:44:31< Espreon> No! :D
20100220 03:44:50< shadowmaster> no, it's "Battle for Wesnoth" and we call it "Wesnoth" unless we need to get formal, period
20100220 03:45:00< ancestral> If we did, all of Espreon's beautiful work would require re-doing
20100220 03:45:03< ancestral> :P
20100220 03:45:05< sevis> That's quite the same... And "The Battle for Wesnoth" looks much better than "Wesnoth" when put in big letters over a map, imho.
20100220 03:45:22< ancestral> So it's got a nickname?
20100220 03:45:35< shadowmaster> yes
20100220 03:46:00< shadowmaster> I also dn't talk about "Debian GNU/Linux" most of the time, I talk just about "Debian"
20100220 03:46:16< ancestral> I suppose
20100220 03:46:25< shadowmaster> (there is room for ambiguity here since there are also Debian GNU/Hurd and Debian GNU/kFreeBSD)
20100220 03:47:21< sevis> And I'd like to see at least one person who ever uses the full name "The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle Earth II: The Rise of the Witch-King" :P
20100220 03:48:30< shadowmaster> furthermore, I usually talk about "wesnoth-umc-dev", not "The Coordinated Wesnoth User Made Content Development Project with SVN"
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20100220 04:06:45< Tonepoet> Hmm.Huh...
20100220 04:07:03< Tonepoet> Oh.
20100220 04:08:04< Tonepoet> Nicknames are nicknames Wesnoth is utter nonsense to the rest of the world without "The Battle for" in front of it though.
20100220 04:08:25< Tonepoet> Gives the gibberish context to make it really seem like a word.
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20100220 04:10:58< ancestral> http://twitter.com/battleforwesnoth
20100220 04:11:00< ancestral> Still available
20100220 04:11:12< ancestral> http://twitter.com/wesnoth has been taken
20100220 04:11:18< Tonepoet> Who'd twitter about Wesno... huh?
20100220 04:11:32< ancestral> I dunno
20100220 04:11:32< shadowmaster> twitter?!
20100220 04:11:38< shadowmaster> that's not official anyway.
20100220 04:11:48< ancestral> Many games use Twitter
20100220 04:11:55< Tonepoet> When you're talking URL names shorter is easier to remember anyways.
20100220 04:12:05< ancestral> http://twitter.com/civgame
20100220 04:12:16< shadowmaster> yes, it's www.wesnoth.org, not www.thebattleforwesnothwhereasheviereisanincompetentbitch.org anyway
20100220 04:12:26< ancestral> Hehe
20100220 04:12:28< Tonepoet> "The Battle for Wesnoth" is more along the lines of a title, like "The Mask of Zorro."
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20100220 04:27:33< Tonepoet> I think it's more congruent with what the fans like too, looking along the titles of the officialized content. Heir to the Throne, Under the Burning Suns, An Orcish Intrusion. The only single word one we've got is Liberty, which may be meant to paint a similarly descriptive image in one powerful word. As far as an executable goes, "Wesnoth" is fine though, as it uniquely pertains to Wesnoth and due to now defunct file name 
20100220 04:27:33< Tonepoet> character limits, program names were forced to be truncated to the product's most defining aspect. 
20100220 04:28:18< Tonepoet> So it matches with tradition.
20100220 04:31:19< shadowmaster> I really doubt anyone looked at what the fans liked when naming the oldest campaigns
20100220 04:31:50< shadowmaster> and HttT was the first campaign, although at what point it received a name I don't know
20100220 04:33:49< Tonepoet> The names themselves indicate what the fans like to a degree, since they're the ones that got accepted and seem to all be stylistically congruent. Although you're right in that it probably wasn't given all that much consideration to begin with though.
20100220 04:36:05< shadowmaster> in my case, "Invasion from the Unknown" was a working name
20100220 04:36:14< shadowmaster> I was supposed to eventually rename it. It didn't happen.
20100220 04:36:39< Tonepoet> Did you ever decide upon a new name?
20100220 04:36:46< shadowmaster> nope.
20100220 04:37:21< shadowmaster> and 1.0 was released more than a year ago, and it was added to wesnoth-umc-dev, so yeah, I am not renaming it any soon
20100220 04:37:23< Tonepoet> Hmm. Do you find the current one fitting enough or does it still bug you that it's stuck?
20100220 04:37:40< shadowmaster> yes, it still bugs me, but people already know it by that name
20100220 04:38:24< shadowmaster> I couldn't have chosen a more cliched and cacophonic name!
20100220 04:40:13< Tonepoet> I suppose there's a sense to that although since Wesnoth is in neverending development things can more easily be changed if it brings a more desirable quality. It's one of the things, which for better or for worse, makes Wesnoth different from say a normal commercial game.
20100220 04:43:08< Tonepoet> That being said, after so long I suppose it'd have to be a 'really' good name, to justify the latency of the change.
20100220 04:44:44< ancestral> Nevertheless, if it's yours, you have the power to change it :)
20100220 04:44:54< shadowmaster> yeah, ... no
20100220 04:44:58< ancestral> Hehe
20100220 04:45:22< shadowmaster> I'm too lazy to change the registry entry, talk with the add-on server managers to keep the stats, renaming a few paths and update my website references
20100220 04:45:25< ancestral> I suppose once it's mainlined it becomes increasingly difficult…
20100220 04:45:56< Tonepoet> XD
20100220 04:45:59< shadowmaster> and once it's mainlined, I hope it gets renamed to something else and it says "based on work from shadowmaster" rather than "by shadowmaster"
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20100220 04:47:11< Tonepoet> Or you might not be credited at all due to the nature of the GPL. (Vaguely remembers some forum controversy over the credits for M.P. maps)
20100220 04:48:03< shadowmaster> I have the power to edit the credits, so meh.
20100220 04:48:09< shadowmaster> :P
20100220 04:48:16< Tonepoet> XD
20100220 04:50:44< Tonepoet> Sounds like you'd have to jump through just as many hoops to do it though. ;-)
20100220 04:56:36 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100220 04:56:59< Espreon> Just edit and type svn ci... and yeahz...
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20100220 05:13:12< Tonepoet> I dunno how anything works regarding the bureaucracy of official content. I've never actually cared to try even making U.M.C before, let alone trying to get it officialized. XD
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20100220 05:37:04< Tonepoet> Anyway, bye guys.
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20100220 10:20:29< PrinceHaldric> Hello 
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20100220 10:21:10< PrinceHaldric> i've come to ask a solution for an episode, is here anyone?
20100220 10:22:46< PrinceHaldric> I can't resolve an episode of Prince Haldric...(The Sunrise of Wesnoth)
20100220 10:22:56< lizard_r> PrinceHaldric, do you want a walkthrough for a campaign scenario?
20100220 10:23:35< PrinceHaldric> no thanks..
20100220 10:23:49 * lizard_r wounders whether  Prince Haldric is a mainline campaign
20100220 10:24:01< PrinceHaldric> I can't pass the episode called "The Lich Peak"
20100220 10:24:30< PrinceHaldric> in the campaign "The Sunrise of Wesnoth"
20100220 10:25:05< PrinceHaldric> it is written "easy" but isn't
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20100220 10:25:42< PrinceHaldric> is incredibly difficult...then after killing the lich a can't find the
20100220 10:25:48< lizard_r> do you play it in english or do you use a foreign language?
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20100220 10:26:30< PrinceHaldric> i'm playing it in italian
20100220 10:26:33< PrinceHaldric> why?
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20100220 10:26:54< lizard_r> I think the Campaign is Called "The Rise of Wesnoth", I was a bit confused :-)
20100220 10:27:09< PrinceHaldric> sorry, was my translation
20100220 10:27:11< PrinceHaldric> :D
20100220 10:27:51< PrinceHaldric> then I cant find the "sewers"
20100220 10:28:31< lizard_r> Was there a yeti in the scenario (yust making sure we talk about the same thing)
20100220 10:28:32< PrinceHaldric> wich is a place to complete the level...but really I don't know where are they...could you help me pls?
20100220 10:28:39< PrinceHaldric> YES!
20100220 10:28:48< PrinceHaldric> that one!
20100220 10:29:25< lizard_r> I'll have a look at that scenario
20100220 10:29:28< PrinceHaldric> there's anything wich suggest where the sewers are..
20100220 10:29:33< PrinceHaldric> ok
20100220 10:29:37< PrinceHaldric> thank you very much
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20100220 10:31:39< lizard_r> well, my game crashed right in the scenario before that.
20100220 10:31:58< lizard_r> The excact coordinates must be in the code, though
20100220 10:32:58< PrinceHaldric> right, how can I discover them?
20100220 10:33:16< PrinceHaldric> I'm not a geek
20100220 10:33:19< PrinceHaldric> :(
20100220 10:33:21< lizard_r> I'm currently having a look at the source code
20100220 10:33:29< PrinceHaldric> ok
20100220 10:33:33< PrinceHaldric> thank you again
20100220 10:34:20< lizard_r> thy (15,9)
20100220 10:34:30< lizard_r> /s/thy/try
20100220 10:35:08< PrinceHaldric> sorry, have patience...What I should do with that numbers?
20100220 10:35:54< lizard_r> in the top right there is a number that displays the current position of your mouse cursor
20100220 10:36:05< lizard_r> right next to the clock
20100220 10:36:08< PrinceHaldric> ok
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20100220 10:36:24< PrinceHaldric> it's done...it's the bad translation
20100220 10:36:32< lizard_r> is there anying special on the tile (15, 9)
20100220 10:36:53< PrinceHaldric> in italian they are translated like "sewers" but it's a cavern
20100220 10:36:59< PrinceHaldric> :(
20100220 10:37:14< PrinceHaldric> thank you very much
20100220 10:37:19< lizard_r> If you got a better translation I'm sure the Wesnoth team would like your help :-D
20100220 10:37:25< PrinceHaldric> but it's a hard level...
20100220 10:37:50< PrinceHaldric> do you know any strategy?
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20100220 10:38:23< PrinceHaldric> cause I have to kill the lich and going right up the scenario, which is full of orcs..
20100220 10:38:31< lizard_r> No, I only know the strategy of the Walkthrough http://wiki.wesnoth.org/TheRiseOfWesnoth
20100220 10:38:38< PrinceHaldric> ok
20100220 10:38:46< PrinceHaldric> thank you for your help
20100220 10:39:22< lizard_r> I think I played the campaign only 5 scenarios further than you
20100220 10:39:26< PrinceHaldric> how can I make noticed the right translation for the italian =)?
20100220 10:39:54< lizard_r> I hope that explains it propperly, as I can't read it: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/ItalianTranslation
20100220 10:40:11< PrinceHaldric> ok
20100220 10:40:23< PrinceHaldric> italian it's my born language...
20100220 10:40:35< PrinceHaldric> but I'm leaving Italy to live in Scotland...
20100220 10:40:48< PrinceHaldric> so, now I have to improve my english..
20100220 10:41:12< PrinceHaldric> Italy, specially the south, it's hard to find a job...
20100220 10:41:25< PrinceHaldric> even if you are able to speak good english...
20100220 10:41:43< PrinceHaldric> You can't use it very much, cause the are no tourists..
20100220 10:41:44 * lizard_r still has to improve his english until he is out of school
20100220 10:41:45< PrinceHaldric> :(
20100220 10:42:10< PrinceHaldric> :D
20100220 10:42:18< PrinceHaldric> bye friend..
20100220 10:42:24< PrinceHaldric> see ya hera again
20100220 10:42:29< lizard_r> bye
20100220 10:42:32< PrinceHaldric> ;)
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20100220 15:41:41< Ivanovic> hi
20100220 15:42:03< Jarkko> Hey
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20100220 21:36:55< bhrich> First time on IRC & first time here; am I connected?
20100220 21:37:07< shadowmaster> no
20100220 21:37:08< [sky]> Yes, you are. :)
20100220 21:37:43< [sky]> Welcome to your new home. :P
20100220 21:37:55< bhrich> TY
20100220 21:42:26< bhrich> Playing Wesnoth 1.4.5 on old computer with Ubuntu 500 mHz processor & 256 RAM. Will I be able to play MP internet games?
20100220 21:43:11< bhrich> Cable connection
20100220 21:43:21< MikeJB> Possibly, but 1.4 isn't going to be up forever. It's an old version.
20100220 21:43:35< MikeJB> 1.8 is coming, and 1.6 is current.
20100220 21:44:03< bhrich> Newer vs. work with Ubuntu?
20100220 21:45:13< bhrich> Ibex
20100220 21:46:31< Sacho> which ubuntu version
20100220 21:47:15< bhrich> 8.10
20100220 21:47:34< MikeJB> bhrich: I just compile Wesnoth myself. Fedora personally has an annoying lag in versions, and I prefer the development version anyway.
20100220 21:48:07< Sacho> yea and compiling it is easy(though probably slow on such a machine) (:
20100220 21:48:39< MikeJB> Ah yeah, 500 mHz
20100220 21:48:59< MikeJB> Mine is 1.83 gHz dual core, and I find it annoyingly slow with certain "modern" applications.
20100220 21:49:07< MikeJB> Especially virtualization.
20100220 21:53:30< bhrich> I'll try compiling 1.6 and see how it goes.
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20100220 21:57:28< zookeeper> yes
20100220 21:57:36< zookeeper> oops, wrong channel
20100220 21:57:41< bhrich> MikeJB; I have a tab with your name on it. What's that all about? Says Received CTCP VERSION (to bhrich) from Mike JB.
20100220 21:57:52< MikeJB> bhrich: that's called a bad IRC client :P
20100220 21:58:15< MikeJB> "ctcp" requests normally go in the server window, it's when someone checks something such as TIME or VERSION...
20100220 21:58:25< MikeJB> TIME being what your system time is and VERSION being which IRC client you use
20100220 21:58:29< MikeJB> Also, ping.
20100220 21:58:36< bhrich> Pidgin What do you suggest?
20100220 21:59:06< MikeJB> Pidgin is better as an IM client than an IRC client. Back when I was into IM, I still used something else for IRC.
20100220 21:59:15< shadowmaster> pidgin sucks for IRC, honestly
20100220 21:59:25< [sky]> Yeah, I'd just use it for IM.
20100220 21:59:37< bhrich> Xchat?
20100220 21:59:42< [sky]> I use that :)
20100220 21:59:52< MikeJB> I use irssi, but it's text-based and run in the Terminal...
20100220 21:59:55< shadowmaster> I'd use konversation, kvirc or irssi rather than pidgin
20100220 22:00:08< shadowmaster> or... xchat, if I was into gtk/gnome applications
20100220 22:00:20< [sky]> You can use irssi, but that's a pain if you have different nicks for different servers.
20100220 22:00:35< shadowmaster> [sky]: hmmm... how so? :)
20100220 22:00:47< MikeJB> terminal-based IRC clients aren't bulky, have features that GUI-IRC clients just can't have, and tend to be very powerful and customizable.
20100220 22:01:02< MikeJB> You can even run them in "screen" so they don't go down if the GUI goes down, you just do "screen -R"
20100220 22:01:03< happygrue_> bhrich: I like quassel, but I am not a power user so it might not have all the functionality that you would want
20100220 22:01:16< MikeJB> Very useful as a back-up at the very least, just in case you have driver problems and need to get tech support from IRC
20100220 22:01:38< MikeJB> The one major disadvantage is higher learning curve, but I tended to use commands like /join rather than the slower menus even before switching to irssi
20100220 22:01:45< [sky]> shadowmaster, I like using autoconnect, and I haven't found any ways to auto change your nick on startup
20100220 22:02:01< shadowmaster> MikeJB: telnet is a good emergency client if you don't have irssi handy, too
20100220 22:02:11< MikeJB> I find that a lot of IRC "power users" (such as IRCops) use irssi.
20100220 22:02:40< MikeJB> It's also very handy if you know Perl, since a lot of IRC clients use a proprietary language (mIRC) that is only useful within mIRC and thus kinda pointless to learn
20100220 22:02:47< shadowmaster> [sky]: when creating networks with NETWORK ADD you can specify the nickname you want to use there (-nick NicknameHere)
20100220 22:03:10< [sky]> Oh thanks, I'll try that.
20100220 22:03:46< shadowmaster> you can even specify the username and realname to use for different networks, actually
20100220 22:04:00< MikeJB> So irssi is basically (1) emergency/"indestructable", (2) power user, (3) flexible/Perl-using, (4) powerful if you know what you're doing. The "disadvantages" are (1) no GUI, and (2) because of no GUI, steeper learning curve
20100220 22:04:37< MikeJB> Basically comparable to some other Linux apps
20100220 22:04:40< shadowmaster> I'm not sure about 2. I learned to use the basics in less than an hour thanks to that fine documentation.
20100220 22:05:04< MikeJB> Well, it's pretty easy to learn, especially if you've used IRC before and know things like /join and /connect
20100220 22:05:18< Sacho> I like xchat because I have an incredibly long list of things to learn
20100220 22:05:22< MikeJB> But it's a little harder to do some things more advanced, you'd need documentation/Google for that
20100220 22:05:27< MikeJB> like splitting the window
20100220 22:05:30< Sacho> and an IRC client just falls really down the line :P
20100220 22:05:36< shadowmaster> MikeJB: yeah /help, and irssi.org.
20100220 22:06:00< MikeJB> I've found better guides than irssi.org, but I haven't needed them in a while so they're probably lost in bookmarks on my old computers.
20100220 22:06:48< bhrich> I'll be back with Xchat.
20100220 22:06:50< MikeJB> The point is that although mIRC is the most common Windows client and x-chat the most common Linux client, there's a powerful and vocal "mafia" of irssi users. :P
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20100220 22:07:32< shadowmaster> hush, you scared him
20100220 22:07:39< MikeJB> I'm sure that if irssi ever "died" it would be revived in a fork by someone who knows what they're doing.
20100220 22:07:53< MikeJB> Immortality is a very powerful thing.
20100220 22:08:09< shadowmaster> stop thinking about "if opensource software X died", that's really silly
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20100220 22:08:26< shadowmaster> like Wesnoth.org, irssi has an active developer team
20100220 22:08:31< shadowmaster> er, Wesnoth, not Wesnoth.org :x
20100220 22:08:32< [sky]> anyway, I'm leaving
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20100220 22:08:52< MikeJB> shadowmaster: My point is that open source wouldn't ever die as long as someone likes it or finds it useful.
20100220 22:09:03< MikeJB> Good open source apps don't really go "abandonware"
20100220 22:09:12< shadowmaster> your point is redundant
20100220 22:09:56< MikeJB> It happens sometimes though that one iteration dies and a fork lives on, so I'd probably say that the "code" will never die, not necessarily the application that goes by the name.
20100220 22:11:20< MikeJB> The best thing about irssi though is that the minimum system requirements are very low.
20100220 22:11:35-!- mode/#wesnoth [+o shadowmaster] by ChanServ
20100220 22:12:32-!- mode/#wesnoth [-bqqq *!*anirban@* *!*@115.117.193.6 *!*@219.64.79.83 *!*@219.64.76.199] by shadowmaster
20100220 22:12:39-!- mode/#wesnoth [-o shadowmaster] by shadowmaster
20100220 22:12:44< Sacho> code can't die
20100220 22:12:48< Sacho> just the community using it :)
20100220 22:13:00< Sacho> especially in open source, on the web
20100220 22:13:04< Sacho> it's hard to "die" :)
20100220 22:13:32< MikeJB> Woah, firefox can toggle tabs similar to irssi. alt+2, alt+3, etc. go to the 2nd, 3rd, etc., tabs.
20100220 22:13:42< MikeJB> I found this out accidentally because I was in the wrong window :P
20100220 22:13:52< Blarumyrran> But if everyone stops using something, it rarely ever comes back - why is death a bad allegory?
20100220 22:17:33< MikeJB> eh, if you bring back an app that hasn't existed for 10 years, then you can call it a "resurrection"
20100220 22:18:32< Sacho> well, the code is still there, reusable and such.
20100220 22:18:46< Sacho> plus, if you have a huge shift in the codebase, and the community changes radically
20100220 22:19:01< Sacho> it's a "death" still, no?
20100220 22:19:48< MikeJB> Oh, here's an example: Netscape and Mozilla are pretty much dead. Replaced by Firefox.
20100220 22:19:54< MikeJB> Galleon's dead too.
20100220 22:20:15< MikeJB> *Galeon
20100220 22:20:33< shadowmaster> MikeJB: are you even aware that Mozilla was superseded by Mozilla SeaMonkey?
20100220 22:20:48< MikeJB> shadowmaster: Yes. It's an awful name, and hardly anyone uses it.
20100220 22:20:51< shadowmaster> or are you just talking for the sake of it?
20100220 22:21:23< MikeJB> shadowmaster: No, I'm talking as someone who *used* Mozilla Suite for a long time, before Firefox even existed.
20100220 22:21:25< shadowmaster> I wonder who told you that "hardly anyone uses it". God?
20100220 22:21:32< MikeJB> And stats told me.
20100220 22:21:36< shadowmaster> things that you don't use aren't necessarily unused
20100220 22:21:37< MikeJB> You know, empirical evidence.
20100220 22:21:57< shadowmaster> stats from where?
20100220 22:22:01< MikeJB> As in, every single website that tracks web browser usage doesn't even mention mozilla/seamonkey as a blip in the radar.
20100220 22:22:09< MikeJB> Thus, stats from *everywhere*
20100220 22:22:16< MikeJB> About 5 different sites good enough?
20100220 22:22:18< shadowmaster> yes, you are a system admin everywhere.
20100220 22:22:31< shadowmaster> I bow to your magnificient sys admin powers
20100220 22:23:03< MikeJB> I didn't say "no one" used it, I said "hardly anyone used it" and I said "pretty much" dead since there could even be 100-1,000 people still using Netscape on some Windows 2000 computer.
20100220 22:23:17< MikeJB> When you have so many different computers out there, it's hard to have 0 users for something that was once popular.
20100220 22:23:35< Blarumyrran> Most sites don't mention Konqueror either, it's not dead
20100220 22:23:39< shadowmaster> I really doubt that if it was so worthless it'd continue receiving updates like this: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/news
20100220 22:23:43< happygrue_> MikeJB: I think you mean these folks:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Ka5HUb7qg  ?
20100220 22:24:09< happygrue_> ;)
20100220 22:24:32< MikeJB> shadowmaster: I think SeaMonkey mainly exists for legacy support, as in a clean upgrade path for Mozilla Suite and Netscape Suite users. And the name is *awful*
20100220 22:24:45< Sacho> what does it do?
20100220 22:24:50< shadowmaster> "I think", okay.
20100220 22:25:08< Sacho> hey, that's a nice bit of software :)
20100220 22:25:14< shadowmaster> also "the name is awful" counts as Best Argument Ever. Congratulations
20100220 22:25:21< MikeJB> Again, I used Mozilla Suite until about sometime into the life of Firefox 1.0 because I didn't really like the pre-release Firefox. I only used Firefox reluctantly because it was more popular and because of extensions. 3.0 was the first release where I really liked Firefox.
20100220 22:25:31< Sacho> I don't think you could measure it to web browsers
20100220 22:25:41< Sacho> which get tons more use
20100220 22:25:52< Sacho> compared to a swiss knife tool
20100220 22:26:01< MikeJB> shadowmaster: Also, again, I think I could have empirical support backing me up. If you wish to fund it, we could organize a survey representative of the general population as to which sounds better: "Firefox" or "SeaMonkey"
20100220 22:26:07< Smar> opera is nice :)
20100220 22:26:12< shadowmaster> stop highlighting me
20100220 22:26:23< Blarumyrran> opera halts at loading stuff arbitrarily sometimes
20100220 22:26:33< MikeJB> I only highlight if someone speaks in between, so that the person can understand who I am talking to
20100220 22:26:47< MikeJB> tends to be useful, you know, to know for whom a sentence is intended.
20100220 22:27:26< fendrin> MikeJB: You must know that shadowmaster is a creature of the dark. He can't stand to stand in the highlight.
20100220 22:27:29< shadowmaster> yes, but I'm not interested on talking with people who think statistics are everything
20100220 22:27:36< MikeJB> Anyway, I think Firefox 3.x + Extensions has more "suite" capability than Mozilla Suite at its prime, thus making legacy upgrades the only legitimate use for seamonkey.
20100220 22:28:04< MikeJB> And statistics aren't everything, but if you ask for more than mere opinion, it's pretty much the best thing short of a census to back things up.
20100220 22:28:22< MikeJB> And the annual UN World Census doesn't measure every software installed and used on your computer, yet.
20100220 22:28:26< Sacho> 6mil google hits
20100220 22:28:40< MikeJB> For?
20100220 22:28:44< Blarumyrran> MikeJB, you meant, we could organize a survey representative of the general population as to whether people rarely use SeaMonkey because of the name*
20100220 22:28:47< Sacho> seamonkey
20100220 22:29:07< MikeJB> think possible alternative uses of it.
20100220 22:29:19< MikeJB> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seamonkey
20100220 22:29:23< fendrin> MikeJB: I was pretty fine with the old mozilla suit. I hope that SeaMonkey will survive. The suite was much better to handle in an internetcafe environement.
20100220 22:30:07< MikeJB> I liked Mozilla Suite, too, I just think that at this point, there's an extention that can replicate a suite functionality, and much more modular/flexible at that.
20100220 22:30:34< MikeJB> In other words, if you wanted a feature, you can probably find it fore Firefox. And only install it if you want it. It's a better system for most users.
20100220 22:30:55< shadowmaster> Firefox sucks,btw
20100220 22:31:01< MikeJB> In fact, the main reason I don't use Chrome is that Firefox has extensions that make it so useful, even ones that make it run faster on certain sites than Chrome.
20100220 22:31:28< shadowmaster> if I need to do something really important (e.g. upgrading a forum database), I use a crashless browser like Chrome or Opera instead
20100220 22:31:41< Blarumyrran> Opera is not crashless
20100220 22:31:46< shadowmaster> it is for me
20100220 22:31:48< MikeJB> Opera isn't that great.
20100220 22:31:48< Sacho> pretty cool
20100220 22:31:51< Blarumyrran> Opera is indeed the only browser to crash when loading webct for me
20100220 22:31:58< Blarumyrran> (sometimes)
20100220 22:32:26< MikeJB> Opera Mini 5 beta 2 sometimes crashes on my phone, but it's both a beta and not the main version of the application, so I can't judge it based off of that.
20100220 22:32:28< shadowmaster> it is for me, and that's all I care. Screw the facts. ;)
20100220 22:33:12< MikeJB> I honestly didn't know they had a Linux version of it though.
20100220 22:33:20< MikeJB> I might have to download and play with it like I do with Chrome.
20100220 22:33:56< MikeJB> When the new version comes out.
20100220 22:34:00< shadowmaster> dammit, I'm hungry.
20100220 22:34:04 * Sacho is not particularly fond of administering stuff over a web interface
20100220 22:34:19< shadowmaster> and there's been no tap water for the whole day. No way to wash dishes, make food, etc.
20100220 22:35:00< MikeJB> < shadowmaster> it is for me, and that's all I care. Screw the facts. <- The only times Firefox (or Chrome) have ever crashed, it has been Flash's fault. The sooner the web moves to HTML 5, the better.
20100220 22:35:15< shadowmaster> I said don't highlight me
20100220 22:35:24< MikeJB> ...
20100220 22:35:31< Blarumyrran> wikipedia said HTML5 might become w3c recommendation at 2020
20100220 22:35:42< MikeJB> okay, next time I quote you I'll change your name to <thatshadowguy>
20100220 22:36:03< Sacho> As of February 2010[update], the specification is in the "Last Call" state at the WHATWG
20100220 22:36:21< Blarumyrran> 2022*
20100220 22:36:35< MikeJB> because you're the only person I've ever seen on IRC so vehemently opposed to IRC highlighting. And I practically grew up on IRC.
20100220 22:36:36< shadowmaster> MikeJB: I am pretty sure my Firefox issues weren't the fault of any add-ons or extensions. I know better than that, thank you.
20100220 22:37:11< MikeJB> and maybe yours weren't, but didn't you just deny Blarumyrran's assessment of Opera on the same grounds I'm denying your assessment of Firefox?
20100220 22:37:12< shadowmaster> it got better with 3.5, but wasn't 3.0 the one that got so publicized with that download day business?
20100220 22:37:16< MikeJB> Sounds rather logically inconsistent.
20100220 22:37:21< MikeJB> And imo, 2.x was the unstable one.
20100220 22:37:33< MikeJB> 3.0 and 3.5, as well as 1.x, were okay with me.
20100220 22:37:34< shadowmaster> MikeJB: yes, it is inconsistent and I am aware of that.
20100220 22:37:44< Sacho> no, 0.1 preview release was pretty unstable!
20100220 22:37:45< shadowmaster> MikeJB: I did it on purpose in case you didn't notice
20100220 22:38:07< Sacho> Blarumyrran: Hopefully people won't wait for it to become a recommendation.
20100220 22:38:45< Sacho> These specification drafts seem to take too long as far as the web is concerned :P
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20100220 22:39:03< MikeJB> thatshadowguywholiekstohighlightothersbutnotbehighlighted: I'm a Philosophy major taking a logic course. Logic isn't concerned about the truth in the premises, but rather assuming the truth and then finding inconsistencies in the arguments themselves.
20100220 22:39:39< Blarumyrran> MikeJB, you're younger than me. How can you be a major?
20100220 22:39:42< shadowmaster> in such case you may want ##philosphy, not #wesnoth
20100220 22:39:51< shadowmaster> * ##philosophy
20100220 22:40:18< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: In the US, we declare our majors before we graduate. And a whatever-major is someone intending to acquire a degree in it.
20100220 22:40:32< MikeJB> Major = concentration.
20100220 22:40:39< Blarumyrran> Oh.
20100220 22:41:30< MikeJB> basically, saying that I am working toward a BA (liberal arts, as opposed to BS which is most sciences) in Philosophy...
20100220 22:41:31< Blarumyrran> MikeJB, what premises?
20100220 22:42:06< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: Technical term in logic, basically, all the stuff that back up an argument/thesis.
20100220 22:42:41< Blarumyrran> That is certainly a very technical term
20100220 22:42:49< Blarumyrran> Backs up stuff.
20100220 22:43:41< Sacho> so like, sysadmins?
20100220 22:44:34< MikeJB> lol
20100220 22:45:06< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: Unfortunately, terms taught day one in a class and then used *extremely* often afterward are usually applied outside of class. That's why some detailed Wikipedia articles are dense and hard to read: technical language that the authors assume everyone uses.
20100220 22:45:47< MikeJB> Also why documentation is so hard to read :P
20100220 22:46:39< Blarumyrran> What.
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20100220 22:48:02< Sacho> That makes no sense. I don't want my documentation in dumbspeak.
20100220 22:48:16< Blarumyrran> MikeJB, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premise by that, any true statement is a premise. So any truth value is a premise - I don't think you knew what that meant when saying it.
20100220 22:48:28< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: that's not how my professor teaches it.
20100220 22:48:34< shadowmaster> I want mah documntation in lolspeak
20100220 22:48:43< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: So if he's wrong, please correct me *after* the final exams.
20100220 22:50:03< MikeJB> The way it's taught, there's basically two parts to any argument... premises and conclusions. The conclusion is the main argument sentence, and the premises are the supporting statements. There's no value as to truth because premises can be false.
20100220 22:50:04< Sacho> your use of "backs up" is probably the confusing part
20100220 22:50:15< MikeJB> Of course, a conclusion supported by false premises isn't a very good conclusion.
20100220 22:50:50< Blarumyrran> What is the use of taking it like that?
20100220 22:51:19< MikeJB> Because the field of (deductive) logic is concerned with the form of the argument itself, not the truth of its premises.
20100220 22:51:46< MikeJB> Again, according to my professor/department
20100220 22:52:04< Blarumyrran> So the truth value of a&b does not depend on the truths of a and b?
20100220 22:52:08< MikeJB> And I'd assume it crosses over into the comp. sci. department because he also teaches there.
20100220 22:52:29< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: No. There's a whole group of more technical terms.
20100220 22:52:33< shadowmaster> *yawn*
20100220 22:52:41< Blarumyrran> There's a whole group on inane terms
20100220 22:53:58< MikeJB> Blarumyrran: It's all about valid form and invalid form. This does not judge the truth of the conclusion. In inductive logic, it's about cogent (highly probable) or uncogent (improbable)
20100220 22:54:12< shadowmaster> and then it came to happen, the Battle for Wesnoth user channel became a dump pit for grandiloquent logic terminology.
20100220 22:54:31< MikeJB> Sound argument = valid form, true premises/conclusion.
20100220 22:54:32< Blarumyrran> I'm getting the impression that the logic in philosophy is just about big words
20100220 22:54:43< MikeJB> No, this is just the first few weeks.
20100220 22:54:50< MikeJB> We're starting to move onto the symbols and truth tables now :P
20100220 22:54:55< shadowmaster> and therefore you shall seek another channel to talk about it.
20100220 22:55:16< MikeJB> thatshadowguy: is there ever an on-topic in this channel?
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20100220 22:55:26< shadowmaster> yes
20100220 22:55:48< Blarumyrran> MikeJB, I've had some courses in logic, and I do think I know more than you, and I can say you are using pointlessy using big words that are pointlessy ambiguous
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 21 00:00:12 2010