--- Log opened Sun Feb 21 00:00:12 2010
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20100221 03:12:40< [Relic]> Hello :)
20100221 03:23:07< un214> oh hello Relic
20100221 03:24:00< [Relic]> :)
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20100221 03:49:40< DDR> WESNOTH: We Enter Snappy - No Other Teams Hope. 
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20100221 03:53:11< MikeJB> asdf
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20100221 09:09:03< DDR> I know teachers who would _kill_ for this much silence in their classrooms.
20100221 09:09:55< Sacho> well, what do you want to talk about?
20100221 09:10:11< DDR> Beats me. *shrugs*
20100221 09:10:22< DDR> And... this is why. :)
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20100221 09:29:40< Cyber_Rock|away> can anybody inform me about any MP campaign Team play
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20100221 09:29:59< Cyber_Rock|away> something like world conquest and a new land
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20100221 10:18:44< Ivanovic> moin
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20100221 16:45:39< G-Lo> Hi, I have an error after having loaded the survivalX addon(http://i.imgur.com/dapKd.png)  from the addon server, who do I have to warn?
20100221 16:47:15< zookeeper> G-Lo, whoever is the author?
20100221 16:47:24< G-Lo> clonkinator
20100221 16:47:43< G-Lo> the weird thing is I had this addon installed, but it made errors on a game i joined
20100221 16:47:58< G-Lo> so I re-downloaded it, and I got error
20100221 16:48:22< G-Lo> (i re-downloaded it because the auto-update didn't found it deprecated)
20100221 16:48:47< zookeeper> SurvivalXAddOnPacks is mabuse's though..
20100221 16:49:20< G-Lo> SurvivalXtreme
20100221 16:50:06< G-Lo> weird
20100221 16:50:28< G-Lo> i had the error after loading SuvivalXttreme addon, not survivalXaddonPacks
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20100221 16:51:13< Noyga> incompatible addons ? try to uninstall one and see what happen
20100221 16:52:06< G-Lo> they're not incompatible, I had both installed for a while, it's when I re-DL'd them that I had those errors...
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20100221 17:06:37< G-Lo> well, i've got the error even after having uninstalled both addons
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20100221 17:42:29< G-Lo> I PM'd mabuse
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20100221 20:20:02< Gambit> Um hi smart people. I have a question.
20100221 20:20:15< Gambit> When you include one cfg inside another, at what point does that get done?
20100221 20:20:24< Smar> hi Gambi
20100221 20:20:25< Gambit> If you do it inside of an event, does it wait for that event to do it?
20100221 20:20:43< Gambit> Hi Smar
20100221 20:21:00< Gambit> Hmmm this might be a better question for UMC dev channel
20100221 20:21:23< Smar> if there’s such
20100221 20:21:44< Gambit> There is. #wesnoth-umc-dev
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20100221 20:21:53< shadowmaster> Gambit: no
20100221 20:22:10< Gambit> No channel or no it doesn't wait for the event?
20100221 20:22:22< shadowmaster> both
20100221 20:22:32< shadowmaster> inclusion of files occurs at preprocessing time, just like macros
20100221 20:22:37< Gambit> What about [replace_map]? Does it wait before it looks up the map file?
20100221 20:22:40< shadowmaster> no
20100221 20:22:53< shadowmaster> anything between {} is a macro or file inclusion and is handled by the preprocessor
20100221 20:22:57< Gambit> meh. /me goes to delete idea proposal
20100221 20:23:16< Gambit> I was contemplating the possibilities of including .php files from the internet
20100221 20:23:21< Gambit> you could have addons with web interfaces
20100221 20:23:29< shadowmaster> we'd kill you, seriously.
20100221 20:23:34< Gambit> LOL
20100221 20:23:53< Gambit> No worries. I can't even get it to take an absolute path starting at C:/
20100221 20:23:56< Gambit> let alone http://
20100221 20:24:00< shadowmaster> also, absolute paths are *not* supported to avoid security issues
20100221 20:24:07< Gambit> That's what I figured
20100221 20:24:55< Gambit> I guess I
20100221 20:25:05< Gambit> 'll just keep my fingers crossed for persistant variables some day.
20100221 20:25:14< Gambit> Hate it when I hit enter instead of shift <_<
20100221 20:25:24< shadowmaster> next time you make posts like that, please disable automatic linkification of URL/don't use [url] for paths that don't exist in our server
20100221 20:25:51< Gambit> Sorry. Post deleted anyway now.
20100221 20:25:57< shadowmaster> yes, I noticed that too
20100221 20:27:08< Gambit> Well it was an interesting idea when I had it (1:00 am)
20100221 20:27:53< Gambit> Wesnoth would have even been able to send data TO the server  for storage via URL parameters
20100221 20:28:06< Gambit> Viola, persistant variables as long as you're connected to the internet
20100221 20:28:48< shadowmaster> I'm not implementing persistent variables for MP add-ons, so don't hold your breath. They'll be only for single-player add-ons until someone smarter than me figures a synchronization system
20100221 20:29:22< Gambit> Why do they have to be synchronized?
20100221 20:29:26< Gambit> They're per user no?
20100221 20:29:38< Gambit> They could just be regular variables until you closed/saved?
20100221 20:30:02< shadowmaster> thank you captain obvious
20100221 20:30:14< Gambit> :P
20100221 20:30:18< shadowmaster> now consider the possibility of each player having different persistent variable states
20100221 20:30:43< Gambit> Hmmm. That's actually what I wanted.
20100221 20:31:06< Gambit> Why can't we reference $global.player1.variablename?
20100221 20:31:09< shadowmaster> yes, consider the possibility of WML going through different execution paths due to the differing states
20100221 20:31:34< shadowmaster> you know what that means
20100221 20:31:46< Gambit> No.
20100221 20:31:55< shadowmaster> OOS
20100221 20:32:18< Gambit> Hmmm all the plans I had for them involved each players team interacting with it's own variables
20100221 20:34:55< Gambit> Can the host ask for a copy of everyone's global variables at the begining?
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20100221 20:35:24< shadowmaster> you didn't pay attention when I said "until someone smarter than me figure a synchronization system"
20100221 20:35:42< shadowmaster> and don't worry about the exact implementation yet, it won't be in 1.8 anyway
20100221 20:36:16< Gambit> lol for something as awesome as global variables, I'd move to development branch
20100221 20:37:09< Gambit> For now then can you just make the host's global varialbes accessable in MP?
20100221 20:37:40< shadowmaster> no
20100221 20:37:53< Gambit> Why doesn't that work?
20100221 20:38:00-!- [sky] [~yana@ip545235f5.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100221 20:38:01< shadowmaster> because it's not in my plans to make it so
20100221 20:38:08< Gambit> Ah. lol
20100221 20:38:46< Gambit> Well it wouldn't require any extra synchronization than what is already put into variables.
20100221 20:38:51< Gambit> Thanks for answering my questions
20100221 20:39:07< Gambit> See you later.
20100221 20:39:28< shadowmaster> what is already put into variables is based ont he gamestate, not the disk's contents 
20100221 20:39:40< Gambit> Move them to the gamestate at the begining.
20100221 20:40:30< Gambit> set gamestate counterparts to thier value
20100221 20:40:46< Gambit> Well I don't understand C++ at all so I'ma stop telling you what to do XD
20100221 20:40:55< Gambit> Bye
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20100221 20:41:47< G-Lo> this addon drives me crazy, can someone test it please?
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20100221 20:55:44< Gambit> You know though, lacking the ability to delay substitution until the event, you could still have maps and scenarios that varied on say... time of day, date, and other info the server would have access to.
20100221 20:57:23< Gambit> What security issues are there with absolute paths outside of wesnoth's folder? And are you guys adamant on not allowing them?
20100221 20:57:39< Gambit> There's no more risk than there is of someone putting a virus in an addon.
20100221 20:58:30< Gambit> Whatever the thing was would have to already be on their computer. And if it was anyhting other than plaintext WML, wesnoth would throw up errors.
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20100221 21:07:42< shadowmaster> Gambit: you cannot delay preprocessor substitution :|
20100221 21:08:47< shadowmaster> and the security issue with absolute paths...what about including arbitrary files revealing information about the user's machine?
20100221 21:09:02< shadowmaster> you really think we didn't spend time thinking on it?
20100221 21:09:34< shadowmaster> you forget that you can not only include WML, but include *anything* anywhere (e.g. in a string literal for a message)
20100221 21:09:35< Gambit> I don't want to delay it.
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20100221 21:10:07< Gambit> Okay so if I go type up say... an html file
20100221 21:10:13< Gambit> and try to include it into a scenario
20100221 21:10:29< shadowmaster> it will work as long as there are no strange quotes (")
20100221 21:10:40< shadowmaster> if you include it inside a string literal, that is
20100221 21:11:07< Gambit> So then the problem would be messages in multiplayer revealing info to everyone?
20100221 21:11:34< shadowmaster> exactly
20100221 21:12:07< Gambit> Is that the only problem?
20100221 21:12:54< shadowmaster> I don't remember exactly but it probably wasn't the only one
20100221 21:13:13< Gambit> So could it be for only macros/maps?
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20100221 21:14:30< Gambit> Besides just messages announcing to everyone it could store stuff in variables and the malicious host could be really stealthy and just save :O
20100221 21:14:51< Gambit> You'd never catch them unless you took a good look, and if they never uploaded their scenario anywhere...
20100221 21:15:07< Gambit> Unless you were suspicious of every custom scenario someone makes.
20100221 21:15:17< shadowmaster> ...
20100221 21:15:56< Gambit> is that a "facepalm" triple dot? :(
20100221 21:16:11< shadowmaster> no, it's a "thank you captain obvious"
20100221 21:17:18< Gambit> Alright then. Nevermind. Neat idea, but too many arseholes in the world for it to be safe. :(
20100221 21:17:20< Gambit> Bye again.
20100221 21:17:29< Gambit> Unless of course I think of something else :P
20100221 21:17:41< shadowmaster> you weren't proposing any idea
20100221 21:17:56< Gambit> I was proposing allowing absolute paths
20100221 21:18:08< shadowmaster> and I already explained why it won't be
20100221 21:18:11< Gambit> For including files from the internet.
20100221 21:18:19< Gambit> Yes. Yes you did.
20100221 21:19:09< Gambit> I just couldn't come up with any obvious security holes so I came back for a better explanation.
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20100221 21:19:37< shadowmaster> right
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20100221 21:35:10< morphles> ok now weird thing happend
20100221 21:35:12< morphles> i hosted a game
20100221 21:35:16< morphles> and got massage:
20100221 21:35:28< morphles> <server>: <player> is reporting out of sync error
20100221 21:35:34< morphles> or something like that
20100221 21:35:40< morphles> my question, what a hell?
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20100221 21:36:22< Ivanovic> in 1.7.x random numbers for fights are generated on the server
20100221 21:36:48< Ivanovic> though in some versions you do get a warning about random number missmatches when recruiting because this is not handled nicely via the server
20100221 21:37:16< morphles> dunno somehow out of sync errors in tbs sound just.....
20100221 21:37:24< morphles> like how can this not be corrected?
20100221 21:37:26< morphles> or can it?
20100221 21:37:38< morphles> the guys that were out of sync said we cant contiue
20100221 21:37:42< Ivanovic> though, it can of course be that you are *really* out of sync because a player changed his/her data or because you are using different versions of an addon (with different unit stats)
20100221 21:38:31< Ivanovic> yes, when those real boxes about "you are out of sync" are popping up should consider stopping, something has really gone wrong
20100221 21:38:44< Ivanovic> then a savegame from all sides is nice so that the issue can maybe be found
20100221 21:39:15< morphles> ok i still dont get how can this be in tbs?
20100221 21:39:47< Ivanovic> if for example your game has the elvish figher twith 3 strikes each doing 4 damage
20100221 21:40:01< zookeeper> out of sync just means the clients disagree on the state of the game, nothing more
20100221 21:40:10< morphles> yes i understand what it means
20100221 21:40:14< Ivanovic> and one other client changed his unit to have 3 strikes with 40 damage (rough example) both sides will get different results in the calculations
20100221 21:40:18< morphles> i dont understand how game cannot be selfcorrecting
20100221 21:40:51< Ivanovic> since what is exchanged between your clients is not the exact outcome of everything but just "move unit to ABC, attack using random seed XYZ, display result"
20100221 21:40:56< morphles> unless as you said addom/mod differs or something like that, but tha should be checked before game
20100221 21:41:01< zookeeper> because most of the calculations aren't done by the server, but by each client individually based on the data sent by the current player's client
20100221 21:41:16< Ivanovic> so at one side the unit might die, on the other not, you are out of sync since your client thinks there is still a unit, the other thinks there is none
20100221 21:41:44< morphles> i understand that, but its tbs and banwith timming shouldnt be issue you should be able to send eought data to check for everything
20100221 21:41:47< Ivanovic> it is not this trival to check all the data right before a game
20100221 21:42:05< zookeeper> the game just isn't self-correcting in those cases, there's no special reason for it except that no one has made it be self-correcting.
20100221 21:42:06< Ivanovic> and someone could cheat by somehow giving himself more gold or the likes, then he could recruit units that are not possible for you
20100221 21:42:08< Ivanovic> stuff like this
20100221 21:42:38< Ivanovic> this is absolutely *NOT* about timing but preventing cheats
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20100221 21:43:02< Ivanovic> if someone does cheat the result will most likely be that the game does go out of sync
20100221 21:43:13< morphles> only way to prevent cheats ir calculate server side
20100221 21:43:27< Ivanovic> uhm, no, this one works lovely
20100221 21:43:36< morphles> which one?
20100221 21:43:37< fendrin> I don't get it anymore.
20100221 21:43:49< Ivanovic> the relevant stuff (the random numbers) are generated on the server
20100221 21:44:00< Ivanovic> the rest is pure clientside
20100221 21:44:22< Ivanovic> fendrin: i am just not sure if the fix was included in 1.7.13 or not
20100221 21:44:26< morphles> dunno from what you are saying protocol seems to be lacking in robustness
20100221 21:44:37< Ivanovic> (that is the one hiding the "uhm, i don't like those random numbers at recruiting")
20100221 21:44:48< Ivanovic> morphles: it is very robust
20100221 21:45:07< morphles> well it gets out of sync withou someone cheating?
20100221 21:45:08< Ivanovic> there is no timing or the likes involved
20100221 21:45:19< Ivanovic> it is just that the two sides do disagree on the current status of the game
20100221 21:45:32< Ivanovic> yes, with something really bad going on this *can* be caused by some game bug, too
20100221 21:45:36< morphles> so there shoudl be one side: server
20100221 21:45:38< Ivanovic> for those we do need bug reports
20100221 21:45:53< Ivanovic> *when* does it go OOS?
20100221 21:46:02< Ivanovic> please post savegames from all players involved
20100221 21:46:11< Ivanovic> and also state what you were doing when in which version!
20100221 21:46:28< zookeeper> morphles, yes, everyone agrees that calculating everything server-side would be the only way to prevent all forms of cheating.
20100221 21:46:47< morphles> so whats the problem
20100221 21:47:00< morphles> the thing is reason i started this discussion
20100221 21:47:03< Ivanovic> and everyone does agree that calculating everything on the server would cost a fortune in hardware power
20100221 21:47:07< morphles> im also playing this game spring rts
20100221 21:47:28< morphles> and it manages to continue even when reporting sync errors
20100221 21:47:30< morphles> and its rts
20100221 21:47:34< morphles> with hundrets of units
20100221 21:47:44< morphles> what hardware power?
20100221 21:47:52< morphles> im not getting something
20100221 21:47:54< morphles> badly
20100221 21:48:17< morphles> rolling rng and checking some cheksums 
20100221 21:48:42< Ivanovic> rolling the rng IS done on the server!
20100221 21:48:52< morphles> now wuestion
20100221 21:49:00< Ivanovic> and "checking some checksums" is *NOT* a trival thing to do
20100221 21:49:00< morphles> if i host the game on oficial server
20100221 21:49:07< zookeeper> you're not getting that there's no special reason for all parts of the game not being designed in the best possible way, they just aren't :p
20100221 21:49:14< morphles> it is my comp that calculates randomas?
20100221 21:49:25< Soliton> depends.
20100221 21:49:30< Ivanovic> your comp only calculates *some* of the numbers
20100221 21:49:36< morphles> so wait wait
20100221 21:49:56< morphles> master server is processing MY game?
20100221 21:49:59< Ivanovic> regarding whatever problem you have, please do *exactly* describe what happened!
20100221 21:50:23< Soliton> what's a master server?
20100221 21:50:24< morphles> started game and just got a message that one player is reproting sync error
20100221 21:50:27< Ivanovic> some "i got OOS and the other player told me we can't continue" does not cover things
20100221 21:50:35< morphles> master server ofisial wesnoth server that hosts
20100221 21:50:36< Ivanovic> which version of wesnoth?
20100221 21:50:42< morphles> 1.6
20100221 21:50:43< Ivanovic> which era?
20100221 21:50:45< morphles> 1.6.5
20100221 21:50:45< Ivanovic> which map?
20100221 21:50:49< morphles> normal/standart
20100221 21:51:02< morphles> iir path to daggers or sth like that
20100221 21:51:15< Soliton> the server is processing your game, sure.
20100221 21:51:30< morphles> why???
20100221 21:51:41< morphles> if im not on ladder game
20100221 21:51:53< Soliton> can you ask a coherent question?
20100221 21:51:55< morphles> what is the reason for master server to process anything
20100221 21:52:24< zookeeper> to prevent cheating
20100221 21:52:33< Ivanovic> to have the game shown in the lobby!
20100221 21:52:33< morphles> why should master server oversee nonranked games?
20100221 21:52:57< Ivanovic> unless it keeps track in which turn you are, how should it show the turn number?
20100221 21:53:00< Soliton> there is no difference between games of any kind.
20100221 21:53:02< morphles> to show in lobby you dont have to runs simmulation, it woudl be enought to keep connection with host
20100221 21:53:19< Soliton> processing == simulation?
20100221 21:53:25< morphles> yes
20100221 21:53:28< Soliton> i guess i'm missing something here.
20100221 21:53:41< Ivanovic> we are not simulating anything!
20100221 21:53:41< Soliton> the server is not simulating anything.
20100221 21:54:27< morphles> ok lets see terminology: master server would be - wesnoth official server/lobby, then host of game, and then clients
20100221 21:54:41< Soliton> why do you call it master server?
20100221 21:54:47< Ivanovic> the host behaves just the same as any client
20100221 21:54:53< morphles> other games call such things like that :)
20100221 21:54:55< Ivanovic> there is no "master" server since there are no "slaves"
20100221 21:55:00< Soliton> no they don't.
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20100221 21:55:12< morphles> ok sorry
20100221 21:55:14< morphles> meta server maybe
20100221 21:55:17< morphles> what i meant
20100221 21:55:20< Soliton> same thing.
20100221 21:55:22< Ivanovic> no meta server either
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20100221 21:55:29< Soliton> we don't have such a thing.
20100221 21:55:39< morphles> so how do you call lobby server ?:)
20100221 21:55:41< Ivanovic> the server is basically just some kind of gateway that does send the data to everyone in the game
20100221 21:55:42< morphles> jsut lobby server?
20100221 21:55:45< Ivanovic> just "server"
20100221 21:56:01< morphles> and then how do you call the host of the game?
20100221 21:56:01< Ivanovic> there you have a lobby where all games taking place on this server are listed
20100221 21:56:29< Soliton> we call the host of the game the host.
20100221 21:56:34< Soliton> we're weird like that.
20100221 21:56:35< Ivanovic> someone starts a game on this server (hosts the game)
20100221 21:56:48< Ivanovic> players join in, the game is started
20100221 21:57:09< morphles> so by your terminology still seems that server is simullating
20100221 21:57:15< Ivanovic> there are almost zero difference (gameplay wise) between a host and any other player joining later on
20100221 21:57:30< Soliton> well, then you have to explain what simulating is.
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20100221 21:57:39< morphles> roling rngs
20100221 21:57:45< Soliton> since i have no clue how you made that conclusiong.
20100221 21:57:46< Ivanovic> the currently active player sends what he does over to the server which forwards the data to every client involved
20100221 21:58:16< Soliton> producing a random number is simulating?`
20100221 21:58:23< Ivanovic> in 1.7.x the client is also able to ask for random numbers, which is done when a fight takes place
20100221 21:58:35< Ivanovic> then those random numbers will be used for this fight
20100221 21:59:00< morphles> now that makes sense a bit more :)
20100221 21:59:05< Ivanovic> every side will then get "unit at x,y moves to x1,y1 and attacks x2,y2 with random seed FOO"
20100221 21:59:21< morphles> well wesnoth is simple game, no physics or such just some rngs so all simulation is basicly rng rolling
20100221 21:59:23< Ivanovic> the result of this "command" that every client receives is calculated by every client
20100221 21:59:27< morphles> well it seems so at least :)
20100221 21:59:43< morphles> and thats good
20100221 21:59:46< Ivanovic> so every client will calculate how many HP some unit has, how much XP, ...
20100221 21:59:52< morphles> but everything should be compared to the host
20100221 21:59:58< Ivanovic> this leads to the possibility of out of sync errors
20100221 22:00:02< morphles> using some checksum or sth like that
20100221 22:00:11< Ivanovic> once you receive something that is "just not possible" you are "out of sync"
20100221 22:00:16< morphles> its seems wesnoth is designed in p2p maner
20100221 22:00:26< Ivanovic> provide a patch for this stuff, if you want checksums!
20100221 22:00:35< Ivanovic> checksums are a non trival thing in regards to wesnoth
20100221 22:00:36-!- rolando [~rolando@3.38.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100221 22:00:43< morphles> why?
20100221 22:00:55< Ivanovic> what is part of the checksums?
20100221 22:00:56< morphles> take all unit stats in buffer do md5 or sth
20100221 22:01:02< Ivanovic> ahhh, lovely
20100221 22:01:07< Ivanovic> what matters regarding unit stats?
20100221 22:01:10< Ivanovic> the animations?
20100221 22:01:13< Soliton> we do use checksums to show you whether a game is using modified WML for example.
20100221 22:01:15< morphles> if it doesnt mach somethins wrong investigate further and correct
20100221 22:01:21< morphles> what about animations???
20100221 22:01:24< morphles> its just visuals
20100221 22:01:32< morphles> nothing to do with net or gameplay
20100221 22:01:37< Ivanovic> they are part of the unit config object
20100221 22:01:43< Soliton> we do unit checksums on recruiting as well.
20100221 22:02:09< Ivanovic> in general there are several ways you can get out of sync:
20100221 22:02:15-!- rolando [~rolando@3.38.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #wesnoth
20100221 22:02:25< Ivanovic> 1) some game bug triggered in "whichever way"
20100221 22:02:38< Ivanovic> 2) some game problem triggered by strange things some addon does
20100221 22:02:39< Soliton> obviously correcting out of syncs errors is not something to do silently.
20100221 22:03:08< Soliton> we could have some automatism that basically reloads the game though.
20100221 22:03:19< Soliton> after asking the players i mean.
20100221 22:03:36< Ivanovic> 3) some player does have different stats do to using either a different version of the configs or "cheating" (gold cheating or whatever)
20100221 22:04:20< Ivanovic> if there are bugs, they should be reported, that is all players in the game should attach their saves to a single bug report
20100221 22:04:59< morphles> ok let me tell how i think things could be done :)
20100221 22:05:20< morphles> just a sec ;)
20100221 22:05:32< zookeeper> we can all think of ways it could be done
20100221 22:06:06< zookeeper> that's never a problem...having someone actually do it might be
20100221 22:07:00< morphles> the host is server - meaning he is "GOD" of one game it host it calculates everything, now clents calculate also, but if chesum doesnt match they request correctiosn from host/server
20100221 22:07:11< morphles> lobby is meta server ir just tracks hosts/servers
20100221 22:07:16< morphles> and clients are just clients
20100221 22:07:48< Soliton> why do you want the host to be god?
20100221 22:07:50< zookeeper> that'd mean the host could just modify his client and cheat however much he wants
20100221 22:07:52< morphles> in this case any cheating whould be reveald soon for host, if its not host who is cheting
20100221 22:08:01< morphles> so what?
20100221 22:08:08< morphles> people could report
20100221 22:08:11< morphles> o just leave
20100221 22:08:14< zookeeper> they wouldn't know
20100221 22:08:19< Soliton> excellent.
20100221 22:08:54< Soliton> so basically you'd like us to go a step back.
20100221 22:09:07< Soliton> i suppose if we're bored we'll get back to you.
20100221 22:09:09< morphles> well i must agree that wesnoth is kinda of the game where it would be hard to notice cheating :)
20100221 22:09:20< zookeeper> people don't make servers, they just make single games. server hosts can be gods, sure, but when MP is just lots of people creating lots of single games, making hosts be able to cheat freely isn't a good idea.
20100221 22:09:56< morphles> now oke there is some solution
20100221 22:10:06< morphles> there should also be dedicated server/host
20100221 22:10:10< Soliton> not to forget that we would have to explain hosts how to open ports on their routers/firewalls.
20100221 22:10:25< morphles> (all games do this...)
20100221 22:10:35< morphles> now 
20100221 22:10:36< zookeeper> you can run your own lobby server
20100221 22:10:40< morphles> if there si ladder
20100221 22:11:02< morphles> trusted party can setup dedicated hosts/servers
20100221 22:11:09< morphles> and there woudl be no cheating at ladder games
20100221 22:12:09< Soliton> not that you explained anything about how that dedicated server works.
20100221 22:12:35< morphles> just as host, but its a game created with no players
20100221 22:12:54< morphles> it waits fro players to join, when everyones ready it starts the game
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20100221 22:13:28< morphles> do you people game much besides wesnoth? :)
20100221 22:13:30< Soliton> ok, is there any point to all of this?
20100221 22:13:47< Soliton> or do you just want to make wesnoth like all the other games you know?
20100221 22:14:09< Soliton> (which have quite different designs.)
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20100221 22:17:10< morphles> no juts out of sync error made me think, since thats not a thing id expect from turn based game
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20100221 22:18:47< Soliton> we don't have to completely redesing wesnoth mp in an inferior way just to handle OOS errors differently.
20100221 22:19:19< Soliton> and i have no idea why you don't expect OOS errors in a mp game of pretty much any sort.
20100221 22:19:25< morphles> now im not sayin you should do, im just interested in how its done and if there could be a better way
20100221 22:19:55< Soliton> i already mentioned what could be done.
20100221 22:20:09< morphles> because tb games have enough time to sync everything or come to conclusion that game in unsyncalbe(duet to cheating differences or bus) and just stop the game
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20100221 22:21:45< Soliton> so you do expect OOS, okay.
20100221 22:21:55< Soliton> you're confusing.
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20100221 22:22:31< morphles> i expect that if oos happens the game would stop of course wtih information
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20100221 22:23:40< Soliton> that's what happens in wesnoth and you even have the possibility to continue anyway.
20100221 22:24:47< morphles> wery small message for such a big thing id say ;)
20100221 22:25:24< Soliton> choose a smaller resolution.
20100221 22:25:29< morphles> :D
20100221 22:25:40< morphles> i mean it should be a table with choices and explanation
20100221 22:25:51< morphles> that really bad stuff happend, its recomended to not continue
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20100221 22:26:08< Soliton> you got an OOS error before?
20100221 22:26:28< morphles> first tiem today in wesnoth
20100221 22:26:42< Soliton> did you look at it?
20100221 22:27:04< morphles> it was just a mesage that some player reports sync errors
20100221 22:27:10< morphles> where should i look?
20100221 22:27:27< Soliton> so you didn't, ok.
20100221 22:27:42< morphles> so tell me where i must look so id know :)
20100221 22:27:56< morphles> as i said it was very unclear
20100221 22:28:04< Soliton> you'll see once it's your client that reports out of sync.
20100221 22:29:11< Soliton> the server message can't be made more informative atm.
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20100221 22:31:37< morphles> does a client know the position of units that are in fog of war?
20100221 22:32:00< Soliton> yes.
20100221 22:32:26< morphles> so basicly that means you could cheat fog of war quite easily?
20100221 22:32:35< Soliton> yes.
20100221 22:32:39< morphles> (not that this is exclusive to wesnoth)
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 22 00:00:20 2010