--- Log opened Wed Feb 24 00:00:38 2010
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20100224 02:06:04< Zarel> "Threads don't get locked simply for existing."
20100224 02:06:06 * Zarel coughs
20100224 02:08:23< Espreon> Well of course they do. ;)
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20100224 03:35:22< Gambit> Depends on content
20100224 03:35:47< Gambit> A topic entitled "SCREW ALL YOU WESNOTH TOSSERS" would probably get locked simply for existing
20100224 03:39:06 * Gambit Is bored
20100224 03:39:29 * Gambit is supposed to be tutoring people in algebra, but nobody has shown up.
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20100224 04:11:50< VurtualRuler98> I think I should use that title(or something similar) for a thread on a forum where I'm a very respected poster, and have an amazingly detailed, interesting, or otherwise insightful and friendly post. Then see if I get banned for flaming, or for having an incorrect/misleading/useless topic name.
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20100224 04:40:46< Gambit> lol Vurtual
20100224 04:41:06< Gambit> I'd warn you for the topic title if it were my forum
20100224 04:41:15< Gambit> other than that...
20100224 04:41:48< shadowmaster> 3/sb end
20100224 04:41:55< Gambit> ?
20100224 04:42:14< shadowmaster> mistyped
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20100224 05:19:19< Gambit> Hello wesbot
20100224 05:23:15< Gambit> People really hate threads titled "Don't click here".
20100224 05:24:07< Gambit> Good night Wesnoth.
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20100224 05:28:52< Kidpunkx> hello all
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20100224 10:18:27< Ivanovic> moin
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20100224 12:38:24< Appleman1234> got to love 67% taken
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20100224 15:01:49< Gambit> Good morning wesnoth.
20100224 15:03:08< KHDN> Good afternoon.
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20100224 15:29:38< Gambit> What time zone are you in?
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20100224 15:37:04< KHDN> GMT+1.
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20100224 17:08:09< evanton> what's up with monster statues on wesnoth maps? can they be revived to fight on my side? I failed to find something about statues in docs
20100224 17:08:59< KHDN> As far as I know, petrification status can't be cured, but I could be mistaken.
20100224 17:12:04< evanton> I've tried to look into the in-game help but I didn't find anything
20100224 17:12:06< Blarumyrran> evanton, by statues you could mean both Stoned units or monster-shaped scenery statues (like the drake one); but no. Unless the scenario maker specifically did something about.
20100224 17:12:15< evanton> aha
20100224 17:13:00< evanton> Blarumyrran: by statues I mean stone pieces, monster-shaped, that display properties of monsters (like lvl, hit points etc) when I select them
20100224 17:13:45< Blarumyrran> they are units that have the status Stoned (like units that are Poisoned are green).
20100224 17:14:24< Blarumyrran> I don't think they're used anywhere mainline for anything else than eye-candy
20100224 17:14:47< Blarumyrran> Except the TRoW scenario with the lich
20100224 17:20:13< KHDN> Caves of the Basilik has 'em, but I don't think they do anything except for blocking a few paths.
20100224 17:23:03< Gambit> That map would be interesting in an era with an ability to cure stone
20100224 17:23:21< Gambit> It'd be a race to claim the most statues
20100224 17:24:00< Gambit> Looks like [heals] can only do hp and poison though. It'd have to be a dummy ability.
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20100224 17:29:16< Gambit> You could set it up like Feeding I guess.
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20100224 17:49:40< Gambit> Trying to balance an all wose faction against mainline
20100224 17:50:15< Gambit> Anyone wanna help? :P
20100224 17:50:39< KHDN> Depends. What kinda help would you need?
20100224 17:52:23< Gambit> Ideas mainly
20100224 17:52:35< Gambit> I can tweak the stats any way I want, but I want it to make sense
20100224 17:52:59< Gambit> Also I don't understand default all that well to begin with
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20100224 17:53:38< Gambit> They'll mostly rely on traits to give them the variation they need
20100224 17:53:51< Gambit> hydroponic increases water defense
20100224 17:53:58< Gambit> mystic makes their melee attack arcane
20100224 17:54:08< Gambit> green makes them stronger against fire but weaker to blade
20100224 17:54:46< KHDN> Hmm... interesting idea, although it's going to be a bit luck-dependant if you only handle it via traits.
20100224 17:55:24< Gambit> there are also various types of woses
20100224 17:55:35< Gambit> light woses have more moves
20100224 17:55:41< Gambit> spikey woses have pierce ranged
20100224 17:55:48< Gambit> wose bellowers are kind of like shamans
20100224 17:55:59< Gambit> they slow enemies and they're weak
20100224 17:56:03< Gambit> but they do double damage on forest
20100224 17:56:25< Gambit> there's mud/rock throwers too that do impact ranged
20100224 17:56:40< Gambit> They have everything at their disposal except for blade
20100224 17:57:01< Gambit> and fire
20100224 17:57:04< Gambit> ... and cold
20100224 17:57:09< Gambit> okay nevermind that statement was retarded :P
20100224 17:57:32< KHDN> So basically, they're one hell of a generalist faction.
20100224 17:58:28< Gambit> they're designed to be way overpowered 1v1
20100224 17:59:12< Gambit> but as a faction
20100224 17:59:18< KHDN> So you /don't/ want them balanced, huh? :P
20100224 17:59:20< Blarumyrran> Against drake-burners too?
20100224 17:59:21< Gambit> their lack of variety and woses inherint weaknesses
20100224 17:59:50< Gambit> Yes Blaru. Thanks to the green trait
20100224 18:00:19< Gambit> You'll do alright against drakes if you get a green spiker
20100224 18:00:32< Blarumyrran> So you'd never buy anything but green units against drakes?
20100224 18:00:38< Blarumyrran> Because the rest would be suicidal
20100224 18:00:40< Gambit> Green is a trait
20100224 18:00:45< Blarumyrran> oh.
20100224 18:00:56< KHDN> What Fire resistance to Green units get, exactly?
20100224 18:01:00< KHDN> *do
20100224 18:01:02< Blarumyrran> Still if you're unlucky with traits, you'll die in a few turns
20100224 18:01:39< KHDN> And since green units are weaker to blade, the Drake player can just toss in a few fighters.
20100224 18:01:39< Gambit> 10% resist to fire
20100224 18:01:51< Gambit> but -20% blade
20100224 18:02:08< Gambit> You won't die in a few turns either
20100224 18:02:16< Blarumyrran> Why not?
20100224 18:02:20< Blarumyrran> Drakes are fast.
20100224 18:02:25< Gambit> Spikers have 5-4 ranged pierce
20100224 18:02:32< Gambit> And woses have high HP and regen
20100224 18:02:58< Gambit> Also Wose Bellowers have 4-3 slow arcane
20100224 18:03:02< Gambit> with double damage on forest
20100224 18:03:03< KHDN> So their fire resistance increases from -50% to +10%, but blade defense only drops from 0% to -20% ?
20100224 18:03:20< Gambit> Yes
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20100224 18:03:32< Blarumyrran> burners have only 10% pierce weakness
20100224 18:03:42< Blarumyrran> woses have 50% fire weakness
20100224 18:04:12< Gambit> also even if you don't get the green trait
20100224 18:04:12-!- SekoIdiootti [~chatzilla@cs148185.pp.htv.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20100224 18:04:17< Gambit> there is still mystic 
20100224 18:04:23< Gambit> Which makes your melee attack arcane
20100224 18:04:59< Gambit> or hydroponic, but all that does is make you move and defend better in water
20100224 18:05:05< Gambit> Woses that can move in deep water XD
20100224 18:05:10< KHDN> That is a lot... but assuming equal distribution, a smart drake player should still be able to quickly cripple the woses with a mix of fighters and burners. Well, assuming the guy with the woses doesn't totally luck out and get mystic/green units only.
20100224 18:05:34< Gambit> Well there's 1/3 odds on all three of the traits atm
20100224 18:05:40< Gambit> I'd like to add more traits
20100224 18:05:44< Gambit> which is where I need help
20100224 18:05:57< Blarumyrran> What's 1/3
20100224 18:06:04< Gambit> one third
20100224 18:06:06< Gambit> 33.3%
20100224 18:06:15< Blarumyrran> Only one trait?
20100224 18:06:19< Blarumyrran> (per unit)
20100224 18:06:21< KHDN> Well, there's always the standard stuff. Resiliant and Strong kinda sound "thematically fitting" to me.
20100224 18:06:39< Gambit> no
20100224 18:06:49< Gambit> They don't give enough of an advantage
20100224 18:06:53< dissociative> anyone happens that wesnoth stable runs really slow
20100224 18:06:56< Gambit> Woses are still really weak to drakes
20100224 18:07:01< dissociative> in windows 7 x64
20100224 18:07:08< Gambit> But I'm working on it
20100224 18:07:13< KHDN> ...oh, right, you wanted them to be overpowered.
20100224 18:07:28< Gambit> 1v1 overpowered
20100224 18:07:30< Gambit> faction balanced
20100224 18:07:37< KHDN> In that case, Thorny to make their melee attacks of type Pierce. :P
20100224 18:07:50< Blarumyrran> Thorny spiker is like Strong adept
20100224 18:07:53< Gambit> Okay
20100224 18:07:55< Blarumyrran> (which exists no more)
20100224 18:08:03< Gambit> A wose bellower on forest would be tough to remove
20100224 18:08:06< Blarumyrran> (so yeah it's not a good point i guess...)
20100224 18:08:08< Gambit> especially if it got green trait
20100224 18:08:14< Gambit> 8-3 arcane slows
20100224 18:08:20< Gambit> though pretty weak HP
20100224 18:08:36< Blarumyrran> ... on forest
20100224 18:08:40< Blarumyrran> What about villages.
20100224 18:08:44< Blarumyrran> Who cares about forests.
20100224 18:08:50< Gambit> That is a glaring weakness for them right now
20100224 18:08:55< Gambit> they can't hold villages
20100224 18:09:29< Blarumyrran> Yeah, and drakes have particularly easy time endangering all enemy villages at once
20100224 18:09:51< Gambit> There is the light wose with 6 moves and skirmisher
20100224 18:11:08< Gambit> Thorny trait is good
20100224 18:11:19< Gambit> I wonder if I can control what units are eligable for different traits
20100224 18:11:30< Gambit> Getting mystic on a wose bellower is a waste
20100224 18:11:33< Gambit> g2g bbl
20100224 18:12:09< KHDN> Take care.
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20100224 18:13:19< dissociative> is the wesnoth default AI still written in C++?
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20100224 18:29:01< evanton> "update all addons" button is great. but I miss a "download all available addons" button, so I wouldn't have do download them manually one by one. or is this possible?
20100224 18:30:16< KHDN> I don't think it's possible via the built-in interface.
20100224 18:31:27< KHDN> You could bulk-download the stuff from, say, http://add-ons.wesnoth.org/1.8/ and "install" 'em manually, though.
20100224 18:32:16< evanton> consider this a suggestion then :)
20100224 18:32:40< Blarumyrran> You shouldn't download all add-ons though
20100224 18:32:46< Blarumyrran> Most of them are crappy
20100224 18:33:55< Blarumyrran> And your help will be a mess for one
20100224 18:34:03< KHDN> Sadly true. There are some quite awesome ones out there, though.
20100224 18:34:35< evanton> this can be fixed by a proper policy I guess
20100224 18:34:50< Blarumyrran> The help, you mean?
20100224 18:34:58< evanton> the crappy add-ons
20100224 18:35:14< evanton> store the crappy ones, that are not polished yet, to a different location
20100224 18:35:15< Blarumyrran> What, would you disallow people to upload stuff just because you think it's crappy?
20100224 18:35:17-!- Noyga [~noyga@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth
20100224 18:35:20< KHDN> As in, filtering content?
20100224 18:35:25< evanton> no
20100224 18:35:44< evanton> Blarumyrran: I believe by crappy you meant that not enough work was invested into some add-ons yet
20100224 18:35:58< evanton> so they are not polished and almost unplayable
20100224 18:36:03< evanton> right?
20100224 18:36:18< KHDN> But what you described would basically be akin to that. There'd have to be a screening process to decide which location an add-on would go to etc.
20100224 18:36:31-!- meric [~Eric@124-171-29-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: meric]
20100224 18:36:57< Blarumyrran> evanton, that and other reasons
20100224 18:37:15< Blarumyrran> But how else would you direct addons to that other place, without forceful filtering?
20100224 18:37:39< KHDN> My point exactly.
20100224 18:37:45< evanton> all addons shall be considered "experimental" by default
20100224 18:38:01< evanton> and make it to "stable" if they fit into some rule set
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20100224 18:38:08< evanton> like a certain amount of positive feedbacks
20100224 18:38:17< evanton> no widely known bugs etc
20100224 18:38:23< Blarumyrran> You could consider making and publishing add-ons as part of the game - making them is fun, the people who make & publish them are foremostly having fun.
20100224 18:38:32< evanton> I know
20100224 18:38:40< Blarumyrran> Strict filtering takes that fun away
20100224 18:39:55< Blarumyrran> Having ratings or such by some ratings commitee might be nice, and it has been proposed countless times and I don't remember what was the reason for saying no to that - but strictly not allowing addons to that server without a positive review would be wrong
20100224 18:41:18< evanton> Blarumyrran: I mean it would be good if the addon development would follow the general software development practices
20100224 18:41:21< KHDN> It'd probably be a bit of a hassle to build a "proper" database system, I guess.
20100224 18:41:25< evanton> like going throug alpha, beta and so on
20100224 18:41:51< evanton> using stable software is great, even if we mean game add-ons here
20100224 18:41:57< KHDN> "Standard procedure" kinda goes out of the window if people are just amateurs doing things for fun, though.
20100224 18:42:20< evanton> amateurs can be directed and educated
20100224 18:42:22< KHDN> Beta-testing would be a really good idea, though.
20100224 18:42:46< evanton> so wesnoth would contribute to the appearance of software-literage generations of kids :)
20100224 18:43:01< evanton> *literate
20100224 18:43:24< Blarumyrran> evanton, all add-ons are "alpha/beta" in that sense.
20100224 18:43:38< Blarumyrran> Campaigns that have very high quality will generally get mainline
20100224 18:43:44< evanton> I see
20100224 18:43:53< KHDN> Which is about the best incentive /ever/ .
20100224 18:44:01< Blarumyrran> For eg eras, the criteria for getting mainline is much higher so those are just ver unlikely to
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20100224 18:47:19< KHDN> Well, you can always go the sneaky route and just make a campaign set in that era. :P
20100224 18:47:33< Blarumyrran> What.
20100224 18:48:46< evanton> KHDN: you mean like MS founding the apache foundation by becoming a platinum sponsor in order to take it over later? :D
20100224 18:48:54< evanton> *funding
20100224 18:49:59< KHDN> I meant, like, a campaign set in your custom era would probably have higher chances to become mainline than the "naked" era. Sorry if I'm being a bit unclear, I'm critically undercaffeinated.
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20100224 18:51:30< Blarumyrran> It's a campaign, not an era though
20100224 18:52:18< Blarumyrran> You can't use the units in a campaign as an era without separately defining an era.
20100224 18:53:53< KHDN> Well, yeah. It was just intended as an example on how to get the stuff from your era into the mainline.
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20100224 18:54:57< Blarumyrran> Well "stuff from an era" is a whole different thing; getting new units mainline is way more likely than an era, even without a campaign.
20100224 18:56:41< Blarumyrran> Some mainline units are connected to a campaign (such as the vampire from TRoW, and the necromancer-like unit that the main guy from DiD is), some are just "core" units (such as all the units in Default, plus yeti, tentacle, spider, sea monster, etc)
20100224 18:57:10< KHDN> I don't think getting new units mainline is exactly easy, though. At least not if they're intended to be recruitable.
20100224 18:57:25< Blarumyrran> What does "intended to be recruitable" mean
20100224 18:57:38< Blarumyrran> eg Scorpions are recruitable buy some guy in TRoW
20100224 18:57:48< Blarumyrran> All units can be made recruitable
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20100224 19:00:03< KHDN> I meant, in standard scenarios. Multiplayer mode. That sort of thing.
20100224 19:00:22-!- Blarumyrran is now known as Blamurymman
20100224 19:00:26< KHDN> In campaigns, you're of course free to run wild with your recruiting lists.
20100224 19:00:42< Gambit> But their costs increase exponentially by level.
20100224 19:01:16< Blamurymman> KHDN, "multiplayer mode" generally means eras
20100224 19:02:29< KHDN> ...I think I shouldn't try to discuss anything when I'm falling asleep at my keyboard. What I meant was that you probably shouldn't expect your units to be admitted into the "default" setting. That kind of thing. I'll be back after I get some sleep, I think. :P
20100224 19:03:12< Blamurymman> Default era? :P
20100224 19:03:21< KHDN> ...yeah, that one.
20100224 19:04:54< Gambit> I'm going to do Wose AI vs Drake AI
20100224 19:05:07< Gambit> AI can't be used to balance things I know
20100224 19:05:22< Gambit> Just want to see what it thinks of them.
20100224 19:05:23< Blamurymman> I'm going to do Coffee vs Me
20100224 19:05:29< Blamurymman> *battle ensues*
20100224 19:05:41-!- pessoa [~pessoa@pD9E7979F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth
20100224 19:05:41< Blamurymman> I won. The coffee is no more.
20100224 19:05:45< Gambit> rofl
20100224 19:06:15< pessoa> there's no coffee in wesnoth
20100224 19:06:26< Gambit> NCIW
20100224 19:06:41< Gambit> It was replaced with tea in 1.3.4
20100224 19:07:42< Gambit> the AI is retarded. It's throwing green woses at blade units. And it's throwing gliders at green units.
20100224 19:08:20< pessoa> what are green units?
20100224 19:08:34< Blamurymman> "it's using gliders" is enough of a proof
20100224 19:08:41< Gambit> lol
20100224 19:08:55< Gambit> Green is a trait I gave to my wose army that makes them fire resistant.
20100224 19:09:44< Gambit> It's using the Bellowers quite well though (it's moving other woses out of the way to save forest for bellowers). That's probably just luck. It doesn't actually know that they have an ability that does double damage on forest...
20100224 19:09:58< Gambit> Does it?
20100224 19:10:10< Gambit> lol drakes are getting owned
20100224 19:11:02< pessoa> Drakes are feable to cold and piercing
20100224 19:11:29< Gambit> Surprisingly the AI recruited no spikers
20100224 19:11:34< Gambit> The only wose with pierce
20100224 19:11:39< Gambit> and it hasn't used a single one.
20100224 19:11:53< Gambit> WOSES WIN!
20100224 19:14:02< Gambit> It wasn't even 20 turns
20100224 19:14:27< Gambit> Anyone want to playtest them?
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20100224 19:15:45< pessoa>  i only run wesnoth 1.2
20100224 19:15:58< Gambit> ?
20100224 19:16:02< Gambit> Seriously?
20100224 19:16:16< Blamurymman> Gambit, sure.
20100224 19:16:35< Gambit> kk I'll upload a new zip to the forums.
20100224 19:17:04< pessoa> my hardware can't handle newer versions
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20100224 19:17:53< pessoa> so the innovations are the green trait for some woses, and the spikers?
20100224 19:18:03< Gambit> No
20100224 19:18:16< Gambit> This is just a project of mine. Not an actual feature of the new versions.
20100224 19:18:45< Gambit> 1.6 Blamury?
20100224 19:18:56< Gambit> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=26122&p=411780#p411780
20100224 19:19:39< unnheulu> pessoa: I still have 1.2 on my old distro to
20100224 19:19:47< unnheulu> i think i'm 1.4 now :/
20100224 19:19:49< unnheulu> or 1.5
20100224 19:20:12< pessoa> 1.5 was just a beta for 1.6
20100224 19:20:17< unnheulu> yeh
20100224 19:20:23< unnheulu> the dev version
20100224 19:20:36-!- deekay [~dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth
20100224 19:21:17< pessoa> but why would drakes want to fight woses?
20100224 19:21:46< Gambit> It's a multiplayer faction
20100224 19:21:49< Gambit> and a single player campaign
20100224 19:21:52< unnheulu> wuts a bellower?
20100224 19:22:01< Gambit> It's a magic wose basically
20100224 19:22:07< Gambit> It deals arcane damage
20100224 19:22:10< unnheulu> ok
20100224 19:22:22< Gambit> Again, I'm not talking mainline here.
20100224 19:22:28< Gambit> Just a crazy side project.
20100224 19:22:41< unnheulu> ok
20100224 19:22:43< Blamurymman> Do eras still go under the campaigns folder?
20100224 19:22:48< Blamurymman> Gambit, ^
20100224 19:22:49< Gambit> Yes
20100224 19:22:52< Blamurymman> Okay.
20100224 19:23:09< Gambit> You want Drakes or Woses?
20100224 19:23:18 * Gambit is going to get owned D:
20100224 19:23:21< Blamurymman> Drakes :>
20100224 19:23:25< Blamurymman> I like winning.
20100224 19:23:43< Gambit> lol
20100224 19:23:49< evanton> the computer always beats me in regular multiplayer
20100224 19:23:51< evanton> on any map
20100224 19:23:55< Gambit> meh you'd probably beat me with woses
20100224 19:25:18< Gambit> What's your in game name?
20100224 19:25:56-!- Blamurymman is now known as Blarumyrran
20100224 19:25:58< Blarumyrran> that.
20100224 19:26:34< Gambit> Are you in the lobby?
20100224 19:26:45< Gambit> oh yeah -_-
20100224 19:26:55< pessoa> there was no arcane damage in 1.2 :((((
20100224 19:28:02< KHDN> Wasn't it called "Holy" back then or somesuch?
20100224 19:28:22< pessoa> yeah, white mages et al. did holy damage
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20100224 19:29:01< pessoa> I often tried to backport units from 1.4 to 1.2, it's one big hassle ...
20100224 19:29:32< pessoa> and even worse from 1.6 to 1.2
20100224 19:32:58< pessoa> woses win, riight?
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20100224 19:41:34< pessoa> how about woses vs. trolls?
20100224 19:46:35< Blarumyrran> woses would always win obviously
20100224 19:46:45< Blarumyrran> trolls have impact weakness, woses resistance
20100224 19:46:55< KHDN> And both sides regenerate.
20100224 19:48:33< Ivanovic> depends on the terrain and ToD!
20100224 19:49:23< KHDN> At night/underground it may be slightly less of a curbstomp, but I'd still guess woses would win.
20100224 19:50:09< Ivanovic> the troll on a mountain where the wose is on flat terrain and the fight takes place at night
20100224 19:50:17< Ivanovic> then i am sure that the troll has a good chance
20100224 19:52:25< Ivanovic> though you should not forget the price difference, a wose costs 20 and a troll (whelp) 13 gold
20100224 19:52:35< Ivanovic> so there is a *huge* difference to be expected
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20100224 19:53:07< KHDN> Woses still have 40% impact resistance, though.
20100224 19:53:13< KHDN> And trolls 0%.
20100224 19:53:30< pessoa> woses haven't got good defenses anywhere
20100224 19:53:47< Blarumyrran> Right now I have 5,5 times his villages
20100224 19:53:54< Ivanovic> but woses make -25% damage at night and are hit by far more often
20100224 19:54:06< Ivanovic> plus trolls are faster
20100224 19:54:19< KHDN> Hmm... lemme do the math.
20100224 19:54:28< Ivanovic> so when dawn breaks they can run away
20100224 19:54:48< Ivanovic> you should make the calcs for 3 trolls vs 2 wose regarding the recruit costs
20100224 19:56:48< pessoa> if both of them regenerate, it's not unlikely that some of them level during such a match
20100224 19:56:51< KHDN> Alright, for the wose, expected value is (13*0.75*0.4)*2=7.8 . For one troll, it's (7*1.25*0.6*0.8)=8.4, unless I'm mistaken. So under absolute worst conditions for the wose, the troll actually wins out (even if it has more HP). Huh.
20100224 19:57:07< KHDN> Um... even if it has *less* HP.
20100224 19:57:40< KHDN> As soon as it dawns, however...
20100224 19:57:54< Ivanovic> the troll can run away!
20100224 19:58:41< KHDN> That's what ZOC pinning is for. Wose mobility is kinda low, but it should be managable if you're careful.
20100224 19:59:19< KHDN> Trolls only have one move more in mountains and two in caves.
20100224 20:00:16-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth
20100224 20:01:56< KHDN> So. At dawn. Two woses: ((13*0.4)*2)*2=20.8. Three trolls: ((7*0.6*0.8)*2)*3=20.16.
20100224 20:02:29< Ivanovic> and two wose can barely ZoC three trolls
20100224 20:02:35< Ivanovic> so you can at least rescue some
20100224 20:02:37< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100224 20:30:24< Gambit> rofl
20100224 20:30:47< Gambit> I think my time would be better spent on projects that have even 1% chance of success
20100224 20:31:09< Blarumyrran> And that have a purpose
20100224 20:31:24< Blarumyrran> Which balancing woses against Default doesn't :P
20100224 20:31:37< Gambit> Well it was going to be a SP campaign too.
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20100224 20:31:57< Blarumyrran> Balancing doesn't matter for campaigns like that
20100224 20:32:11< Blarumyrran> If you have any sense of dignity, you won't be using drakes in your campaign anyway.
20100224 20:32:26< Gambit> They're in scenario 2 :$
20100224 20:32:47< Gambit> The dwarves kick the Woses butts and they have to flee to an "older part of the forest"
20100224 20:32:49< Gambit> but when they get there
20100224 20:32:56< Gambit> the drakes have been living there for forever
20100224 20:33:05< Gambit> (the woses were asleep or some such thing)
20100224 20:33:09< Gambit> and it's not a desert
20100224 20:33:12< Gambit> they get mad
20100224 20:33:15< Gambit> I rip off LOTR
20100224 20:33:18< Gambit> there is a dam involved
20100224 20:33:29< Gambit> *it's now a desert
20100224 20:33:31< Blarumyrran> Can you replace drakes with yetis?
20100224 20:33:47< Gambit> Why are yetis converting forest to desert :s
20100224 20:34:01< Blarumyrran> that adds mystery
20100224 20:34:05< Gambit> lol
20100224 20:34:32< Gambit> Scenario three is a massive battle
20100224 20:34:36< Gambit> that you're not a part of
20100224 20:34:45< Gambit> you just need to get your tails through it without getting killed
20100224 20:34:55< Gambit> Drakes vs Humans on the edges of the desert
20100224 20:35:31< Gambit> And looking back at the chat, people want trolls :)
20100224 20:35:37< evanton> they might be eating the trees
20100224 20:37:03< Gambit> I think I might start on a tutorial draft.
20100224 20:37:33< KHDN> It needs to be pretty mountain-y terrain for the trolls to stand any chance, though.
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20100224 20:40:44< Gambit> tutorial has no _main.cfg?
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20100224 20:59:21< Gambit> I think I just found a bug in the editor. If you take... say snow, and click 20 times on grass
20100224 20:59:26< Gambit> you have to undo 20 times to get back to grass
20100224 20:59:43< Gambit> It's adding things to the undo history even when no change is made.
20100224 21:04:37< Smar> Gambit: conceptally that’s no bug, feel free to submit a feature request about that :)
20100224 21:04:46< Smar> since it behaves as it says it does:
20100224 21:05:05< Smar> when you put grass over grass, it actually puts the grass to there, so it *is* one action
20100224 21:05:14< Smar> since it adds itself to undo queue too
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20100224 21:09:17< skaboobie> Hey, I just thought I'd let you know this guy is charging for Battle for Wesnoth on the iTunes store:  http://appshopper.com/games/battle-for-wesnoth
20100224 21:09:34< skaboobie> Isn't that a GPl violation?
20100224 21:09:37< Smar> yeah, it’s perfectly known
20100224 21:09:38< Smar> no is not
20100224 21:10:04< Smar> you can charge of gpl application as much as you want, as long as you don’t violate the gpl lisence
20100224 21:10:29< Smar> http://wesnoth.repositoryhosting.com/trac/wesnoth_wesnoth/
20100224 21:10:41< skaboobie> I'm not arguing the point, since I'm no expert on GPL, but why doesn't it violate it?  Be cause he makes the code available?
20100224 21:10:52< Smar> look the link.
20100224 21:11:00< Smar> wesnoth.org’s front page is your source.
20100224 21:11:31< Gambit> You can burn copies of wesnoth and sell them to all your friends
20100224 21:11:36< Gambit> as long as you pass on all the same rights
20100224 21:11:46< Gambit> and source
20100224 21:11:51< Gambit> and information
20100224 21:12:06< Smar> you know, gpl is a lisense, not a copyright grant to you 
20100224 21:12:23< skaboobie> Oh, okay.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I saw the link on SlickDeals.net, and I thought it might have been fishy.
20100224 21:12:34< evanton> is this guy at least a contributor to wesnoth?
20100224 21:12:37< Smar> it’s advertised on wesnoth.org
20100224 21:12:38< Gambit> He's put a lot of work into the Iphone port btw
20100224 21:12:43< Smar> very much.
20100224 21:13:06< Gambit> And I think he said something about apple not letting you put free things in the store?
20100224 21:13:06< evanton> I guess it makes sense then
20100224 21:13:15< evanton> common sense at least
20100224 21:13:38< evanton> and apple is moronic :)
20100224 21:13:42< Smar> well, I wouldn’t care less about that one
20100224 21:14:04< Smar> if it brings wesnoth to people who wouldn’t otherwise play it, what am I to say it’s bad?
20100224 21:14:34< Smar> if it does something completely new, how’s that bad?
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20100224 21:15:18< Blarumyrran> And he donates half of the money to wesnoth devs, I've heard
20100224 21:15:41< Smar> sure that’s true?
20100224 21:15:54< Gambit> And the other half he spends bribing people for 5 star ratings (sarcastic joke)
20100224 21:16:39< Blarumyrran> Of course; any sane person would spend the money on botnets to get much more ratings
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20100224 21:18:11< Gambit> Did anyone see what I wanted to do to the tutorial and is it okay in your opinions? I want to pop them up a list of lessons in the begining.
20100224 21:18:18< Gambit> Letting them choose what they play.
20100224 21:18:20< Blarumyrran> Not letting you "sell" free things might be a good thing
20100224 21:18:36< Blarumyrran> Because of all those "Download FREE SMILEYS!"
20100224 21:18:54< Gambit> People are skeptical of free.
20100224 21:19:16< Gambit> That's the only reason wesnoth isn't the most popular video game on the planet right now.
20100224 21:19:38< Smar> Gambit: no, not the only reason. 
20100224 21:19:40< Blarumyrran> Well objectively wesnoth has a lot of flaws
20100224 21:19:54< Smar> it’s because there’s people who just doesn’t like strategy games
20100224 21:19:56< evanton> maybe "flaws" is a bit too harsh
20100224 21:20:03< evanton> I'd call them inconveniences
20100224 21:20:06< Blarumyrran> evanton, what, why
20100224 21:20:25< Blarumyrran> Eg it's clearly a flaw that the UI panels are still so ugly
20100224 21:20:28< Smar> evanton: yeah, I don’t win all the time
20100224 21:20:28< evanton> too bit impact of randomness, tight time limits during quests
20100224 21:20:44< evanton> but of course this is the point of view of a newbie
20100224 21:20:49< Smar> I disagree with both
20100224 21:20:52< Blarumyrran> It's a flaw that the style is disconnected because the artists are not few enough
20100224 21:21:02< Smar> and I’m completely newbie in terms of goodyness in game ;)
20100224 21:21:12< Gambit> Same
20100224 21:21:18< Blarumyrran> As fewer, professionally educated & devoted artists of course give a much more cohesive style
20100224 21:21:30< evanton> Smar: winning shall be complicated, but possible, as in chess. that would make me happier. but again, thats my IMHO
20100224 21:21:39< Smar> evanton: yeah, it is
20100224 21:21:49< Smar> you just need the kick the damn off from RNG
20100224 21:22:02< Smar> s/from/of/
20100224 21:22:10< Smar> or something
20100224 21:22:14< evanton> having a trained unit being killed because of bad randomness luck is a tragedy for me
20100224 21:22:19 * Smar just started to hate english even more and runs away
20100224 21:22:35< evanton> I can't sleep after that, not to mention trying to play again the same map :)
20100224 21:22:39< Smar> evanton: I play by luck :P
20100224 21:22:58< Blarumyrran> evanton, yeah I'd like it more too if units could upgrade only once
20100224 21:23:19< evanton> Smar: point is that this randomness thing makes strategy less relevant that it could be
20100224 21:23:25< Blarumyrran> But that's just a personal likeness
20100224 21:23:31< evanton> I saw how the computer is playing in simple multiplayer
20100224 21:23:39< evanton> just buys loads of different units
20100224 21:23:44< evanton> and pwns me everytime
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20100224 21:24:41< Smar> evanton: even more relevant; cope with the RNG as much as you need and be rendezvous
20100224 21:25:01< Sacho> evanton: nobody losing to the AI is qualified enough to talk about game randomness
20100224 21:25:25< Smar> support the units in need and still be able to forward with good luck until the point you can’t forward when you next turn get bad luck
20100224 21:25:26< evanton> Sacho: I've admitted I'm a newbie sucker from the start
20100224 21:25:39< Sacho> I doubt you're even getting that much randomness.
20100224 21:25:46< Gambit> I couldn't beat the AI 100% of the time until I learned about resistance.
20100224 21:25:48< Sacho> Have you looked at the "statistics" window?
20100224 21:26:03< evanton> nop
20100224 21:26:13< Blarumyrran> Gambit, ... the tutorial doesn't mention resistance?
20100224 21:26:13< Smar> Sacho: I lose to AI too, because I’m too impatient to play until the end, as they just dies before my units... scaredyrats. :(
20100224 21:26:19< Gambit> It's like a whole new game...
20100224 21:26:40< Gambit> I don't think so Blaru.
20100224 21:26:42< Smar> ...they still haven’t rewritten the tutorial? :P
20100224 21:26:46< Gambit> It will when I'm done with it.
20100224 21:26:55< Gambit> If people like my rewrite
20100224 21:26:59< Blarumyrran> Smar, they have
20100224 21:27:06< Blarumyrran> You don't kill Delfador enaymore, at least
20100224 21:27:06< Smar> Blarumyrran: since when?
20100224 21:27:12< Gambit> Not for like four stable versions!
20100224 21:27:15< Smar> Blarumyrran: that’s oldie change
20100224 21:27:17< Gambit> XD
20100224 21:27:19< Smar> Gambit: yeah, do it
20100224 21:28:50< Gambit> pango is going to be fun
20100224 21:29:08< Gambit> And I'm going to include a rundown of the UI in it with screenshots, much like the manual
20100224 21:29:29< Gambit> That will be the first "lesson".
20100224 21:31:34< Smar> :)
20100224 21:31:59< Smar> Gambit: it could  be first good to show what units do before putting player to do it herself
20100224 21:35:02< Gambit> I can't get it to quit when a user chooses "Exit Tutorial". I have an [end_level] event with result=victory and no next_scenario defined.
20100224 21:35:30< Gambit> *end_level tag
20100224 21:36:51< Smar> I don’t really know WML, so can’t help
20100224 21:37:06< Gambit> nevermind
20100224 21:37:11< Gambit> I found it
20100224 21:37:14< Gambit> some things have underscores
20100224 21:37:17< Gambit> some things done -_-
20100224 21:37:22< Gambit> *don't
20100224 21:37:58< Smar> :)
20100224 21:39:07< Smar> ♬ Kanon AIR Piano Arrange Album — 09. Account of a Dream
20100224 21:49:23< Gambit> And if someone who knew something about that balance thinger drafted some text, I could include an intro to MP factions.
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20100224 22:35:22< Gambit> An hour and a half later the first scenario/main menu is done. Uploaded it to the forums if anyone wants to see. Doesn't actually tutor anything yet. :P
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20100224 22:49:30< Blarumyrran> What main menu.
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20100224 23:03:18< Blarumyrran> Heh
20100224 23:03:36< Blarumyrran> The person who designed Archon was named Paul Reiche III
20100224 23:03:39-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100224 23:03:58< Sacho> that's an odd bit of trivia
20100224 23:04:04< Blarumyrran> That's a mighty nazi name if I ever saw one
20100224 23:04:19 * Sacho shrugs
20100224 23:05:27< KHDN> Needs more Siegfried. Or Viktor.
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20100224 23:09:22< Blarumyrran> My goodness, he also made star control II
20100224 23:09:31 * Blarumyrran will look for undertones the next time he plays it
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20100224 23:11:30< KHDN> With a bit of imaginativeness, you can find Nazi parallels /everywhere/ .
20100224 23:12:08< Gambit> With a bit of imaginativeness, you can find anything anywhere at any time.
20100224 23:12:16< Blarumyrran> Well, finding parallels there will be a bit too easy
20100224 23:12:44< Blarumyrran> The whole story centers on genocide, and the caterpillars who mostly do it, are presented quite favorably
20100224 23:12:53< Blarumyrran> even if they are the major antagonists
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 25 00:00:45 2010