--- Log opened Fri Mar 12 00:00:05 2010
--- Day changed Fri Mar 12 2010
20100312 00:00:05< fendrin> The editor branch.
20100312 00:00:18< crimson_penguin> What's that for?
20100312 00:00:46< fendrin> alpha release of the feature.
20100312 00:00:56< crimson_penguin> what feature? :P
20100312 00:01:37< fendrin> unit placement, animated terrain, label placement, village ownership preset, named areas, multiplayer scenario generation.
20100312 00:01:47< crimson_penguin> nice
20100312 00:01:52< fendrin> :-)
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20100312 00:02:08< crimson_penguin> looks like we have 6GB of transfer left on my internet, for the next 5 or 6 days I think
20100312 00:02:20< crimson_penguin> so what's the build for? people to try, or just like one person to try?
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20100312 00:02:54< fendrin> crimson_penguin: Multiple people to try. Best to upload to sf.
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20100312 00:03:28< crimson_penguin> It might be fine to upload to my server, but I was more worried about the uploading time on my internet than anything
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20100312 00:12:12< loonycyborg> crimson_penguin: If you'll be going to upload to sf, place them in experimental/ directory, with windows builds.
20100312 00:13:21< fendrin> http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/experimental/wesnoth-1.7.13-fendrin_editor-r41543-win32.exe
20100312 00:19:24< crimson_penguin> hmm
20100312 00:20:38< crimson_penguin> fendrin: ok, what's the branch called?
20100312 00:20:47< crimson_penguin> I tried svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/branches/editor but it didn't work
20100312 00:20:59< fendrin> fendrin_editor
20100312 00:21:26< CIA-88> crab * r41546 /trunk/changelog: add an entry in changelog for bug #15390
20100312 00:21:35< CIA-88> crab * r41547 /trunk/ (changelog src/actions.cpp): fix bug #15013: make AI gotos persist between turns when set by WML, make the AI don't use gotos for normal moves.
20100312 00:22:00< fendrin> Crab_: Can the gotos be a list?
20100312 00:22:13< Crab_> fendrin: no
20100312 00:22:32< fendrin> oh
20100312 00:22:40< Crab_> fendrin: but they can be, theoretically
20100312 00:23:13< fendrin> Crab_: I thought about setting lists of gotos via the editor path tool.
20100312 00:23:43< Crab_> well, gotos are a limited tool
20100312 00:24:02< Crab_> but, if you want to expand their capabilities, it would be very easy to allow ai to use them
20100312 00:24:20< Crab_> the current policy is: "ai will not use gotos by itself. but, it will honor gotos set by wml"
20100312 00:24:41< fendrin> why does that make them limited?
20100312 00:25:44< Crab_> they're limited because it's only the 'move (in a buggy and straightforward way) to target location, ignoring enemies'
20100312 00:26:25< fendrin> I guess that is at least good enough for cutscenes.
20100312 00:29:21< fendrin> esr: Are you the author of that wiki from macro comments generator?
20100312 00:30:01< Crab_> fendrin: well, lua is better for that
20100312 00:30:23< Crab_> fendrin: since you can make moves/attacks/recalls/recruits via the same kind of code...
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20100312 00:31:35< fendrin> Crab_: Hmmm, what about just storing the path in a variable that belongs to the unit (we support variables in units, still?)
20100312 00:32:06< Crab_> well, you can use formula ai patrol formula :)
20100312 00:32:38< Crab_> the usage of gotos to tell the ai to move to some location is hack...
20100312 00:33:04< Crab_> it's easy to do so, so it'll stay as a "supported hack"
20100312 00:33:23< Crab_> but the ai will not use gotos for anything else, to avoid some subtle side effects
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20100312 00:33:54< Crab_> fendrin: changing 'goto' to contain a vector of locations can be a good thing
20100312 00:34:03< esr> fendrin: Yes, I am the author.
20100312 00:34:07< Crab_> fendrin: both for human and for ai, that is
20100312 00:35:01< Crab_> fendrin: 'storing the path in a variable that belongs to the unit' is also a possible solution. but, it can be already done with formula ai patrol formula or a move-only variation of it.
20100312 00:35:27< Crab_> since formula ai unit formulas belong to the unit and can hold state
20100312 00:36:12< Crab_> fendrin: it is certanly worth discussing whether it's a good thing to allow to attack 'a list of scripted behaviors' to unit via editor
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20100312 00:36:34< fendrin> Crab_: I want a general solution that doesn't include generated code to the scenario. Just storing the things. If you say goto is a good place to do so because it can be addressed by the ai makes it a good candidate.
20100312 00:37:11< fendrin> esr: Can it be modified to read the tag descriptions out of AI0867's wml schema format?
20100312 00:37:42< esr> fendrin: I don't know, I've never seen that format.
20100312 00:39:01< fendrin> esr: data/schema.cfg
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20100312 00:39:45< Crab_> fendrin: well, with lua we can make the generated code very small and self-contained, like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/b4QmTd6R
20100312 00:40:16< CIA-88> esr * r41548 /trunk/data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/13a_Showdown.cfg:
20100312 00:40:16< CIA-88> Work around a minor bug noted in the forums. The real fix needs a
20100312 00:40:16< CIA-88> string melt.
20100312 00:40:44< Crab_> fendrin: we can hide the 'wait till unit reaches A, then ask it to start moving towards B, then, once it reaches B, ...' logic
20100312 00:41:02< fendrin> Crab_: That is nice, but the point is that I don't want to limit the wml coder to a single usage.
20100312 00:41:04< Crab_> fendrin: after all, we only need to write a lua table of orders
20100312 00:41:18< Crab_> ' I don't want to limit the wml coder to a single usage ' - explain, please
20100312 00:41:21< esr> fendrin: I don't understand what I'm seeiing in there, or how it's relevant.
20100312 00:42:06< fendrin> esr: Sorry, I will give you some context. The content of the file describes wml tags that are validated by the schema validator written by AI0867.
20100312 00:42:52< fendrin> I want to read the information there and use it to generate a gui that edit side and unit tags in the editor.
20100312 00:43:43< Crab_> fendrin: well, we will need to 'attach' this info to particular unit, but also we'll need to parse it from the editor
20100312 00:44:03< Crab_> fendrin: we can make this info not self-contained, yes
20100312 00:44:05< esr> I don't see what this has to dop with the macro help extractor.
20100312 00:44:19< Crab_> fendrin: e.g. write only a list of locations to a unit variable
20100312 00:44:43< Crab_> fendrin: and then use a side_formulas or lua stage to actually read this list of locations and act on it
20100312 00:45:06< Crab_> fendrin: we need to mark those units, as well.
20100312 00:45:29< Crab_> for example, we can abuse ai_special= attribute for that
20100312 00:45:44< Crab_> fendrin: or we can name the variable in a specific way
20100312 00:46:06< fendrin> esr: The editor will show the help to the attribute or tag like it is now written in the wiki.
20100312 00:46:23< Crab_> fendrin: e.g., variable named "movement_script" with a list like "(1,1):(1,2):(12,42)"
20100312 00:46:46< Crab_> "(1,1) : ( 1,2) : (12,42)"
20100312 00:47:10< esr> I still dn't have any idea what you are asking me to do. I'm completely lost.
20100312 00:47:33< Crab_> fendrin: and then a separate ai stage (side_formulas - using formula ai), or lua, to 'get a list of all units which have this variable, read it, and then act on it, and then, if needed, modify it (chop off first location once reached)
20100312 00:47:38< fendrin> Crab_: Sounds good. There needs to be a wait symbol to walk slower than movement allows.
20100312 00:48:11< Crab_> fendrin: yes, a way to select between move_full and move
20100312 00:48:29< Crab_> fendrin: or a way to select 'speed'
20100312 00:48:40< fendrin> esr: The wiki help entries can be attribute in the schema wml. That allows me display them in the editor and it will be in sync with the generated wml reference wiki.
20100312 00:48:50< Crab_> fendrin: but, basically, there should be no c++ hardcodes in there..
20100312 00:49:07< Crab_> fendrin: e.g. 'the editor knows how to write that variable, and that's it."
20100312 00:49:14< fendrin> Right.
20100312 00:49:33< esr> The wiki help entries I generate are for *macros8. They're associated with *macro names*.
20100312 00:49:58< fendrin> That is understood.
20100312 00:50:17< esr> It's a completely different problem.
20100312 00:50:29< fendrin> hmmmm
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20100312 00:50:43< Crab_> fendrin: if you give me an example of syntax, we can make the 'implement the ai snippet which acts on it' an easycoding task.
20100312 00:51:05< fendrin> Crab_: So I will just fill that variable for now.
20100312 00:51:23< Crab_> fendrin: I think that if/when we get into gsoc, there'll be some people willing to try their hand at writing ai scripts out here :)
20100312 00:51:53< fendrin> Is it still possible to propose gsoc ideas?
20100312 00:52:08< Crab_> fendrin: of course.
20100312 00:52:26< Crab_> fendrin: even students can propose them, later, when they appear :)
20100312 00:52:39< Crab_> fendrin: the number of mentors is a limiting factor, of course.
20100312 00:52:56< fendrin> I like to propose that the editor can handle wml events read from a [editor_scenario].
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20100312 00:53:37< fendrin> Those events would be named like name=terrain_choosen
20100312 00:53:47< fendrin> or name=terrain placed
20100312 00:53:56< fendrin> name=brush tool selected
20100312 00:55:18< Crab_> fendrin: you're welcome to create a new wiki page with the {{SoC2010Idea}} template :)
20100312 00:55:38< fendrin> Crab_: Did you understand where I want to go with it?
20100312 00:56:01< Crab_> editor macroses ?
20100312 00:56:44< fendrin> More like editor scenarios that produce a certain type of wesnoth scenario out of the editor. A survivale for example.
20100312 00:56:48< Crab_> fendrin: (the easiest way is to copy the source of one of existing SoC_Ideas pages, and change the text, keeping the =Description=header
info =Anything else= )
20100312 00:57:26< Crab_> fendrin: yes, that's possible, too. I was thinking about more generic usage..
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20100312 00:57:58< Crab_> fendrin: but, it's possible to do it in other way....
20100312 00:58:43< Crab_> fendrin: e.g., if you have support for placing items from the editor, then you can add a 'prestart' event which will read items on map and transform items to, say, 'spawn points'
20100312 00:59:12< Crab_> fendrin: this way, you can 'make a map, select a map script, combine them, get a scenario'
20100312 00:59:33< Crab_> fendrin: you'd only need to place 'tokens' from editor.
20100312 00:59:47< Crab_> fendrin: where 'token' is like 'item with user-specified parameters'
20100312 01:00:53< fendrin> That sounds like a single hex named location.
20100312 01:01:05< Crab_> fendrin: yes. with parameters
20100312 01:01:24< fendrin> What parameters?
20100312 01:01:25< Crab_> fendrin: i.e. "named location = spawn point", parameter = "list of units to be spawned with corresponding turns", "map script =" pre-made WML file which contains a prestart event to get those named locations and add events to spawn units"
20100312 01:01:57< Crab_> fendrin: but, actually, it's a bit too early to code such stuff.
20100312 01:02:29< fendrin> early?
20100312 01:02:56< Crab_> fendrin: yes, some gui stuff should be prepared first
20100312 01:03:19< fendrin> That is gui related?
20100312 01:03:23< fendrin> In which way?
20100312 01:04:02< Crab_> fendrin: imagine, for example, that there's a 'map script' which can generate a survival from list of spawn points and spawn types/turns.
20100312 01:04:37< Crab_> fendrin: to do all this from within gui, we need a dialog to allow the editor to 'edit' a spawn point - select spawn types, turns, etc
20100312 01:05:13< Crab_> fendrin: and, that dialog shouldn't be hardcoded in the editor
20100312 01:05:29< Crab_> fendrin: it should be, actually, 'part of that map script'
20100312 01:05:52< Crab_> fendrin: so, this raises a question of 'drawing a user interface from WML code'
20100312 01:06:38< Crab_> fendrin: e.g. , it'll be a lot easier when it'll be possible to draw arbitrary gui things like inventories/edit boxes/etc from WML+lua
20100312 01:07:16< fendrin> Well sure, but that will be in place in wesnoth 1.14
20100312 01:08:09< Crab_> fendrin: so, you'd be held back by gui2, and you'll try to code out some of those things in c++, which will severely limit the utility, and, when wesnoth 1.14 comes out, will be a duplication of effort.
20100312 01:08:18< Crab_> fendrin: and I hope that it will be long before 1.14 ;)
20100312 01:08:46< Crab_> fendrin: after all, gui2 definitions are already WML
20100312 01:09:17< Crab_> fendrin: so, it's actually better to code the gui stuff first
20100312 01:09:42< Crab_> fendrin: for example, MP lobby also suffered because it was done too early.
20100312 01:10:01< Crab_> fendrin: as it was (and still is) hit by gui2 bugs, which slowed things down.
20100312 01:19:43< Crab_> (night)
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20100312 01:22:07< crimson_penguin> fendrin: I think it's too late to start uploading a new build, but remind me tomorrow, or I'll try to remember myself
20100312 01:25:46< fendrin> crimson_penguin: Okay, thank you :-)
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20100312 02:13:40< fendrin> shadowmaster: Regarding http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29099. Do you think the "blessed weapon" feature is any useful in scenario 3? It's causing trouble constantly.
20100312 02:17:39< shadowmaster> well, I don't like that "feature"
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20100312 02:19:34< fendrin> shadowmaster: It has not been around in the original utbs.
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20100312 04:03:01< norbert_> hi, on the 1.6 server, did you changed the AI about a week ago?
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20100312 04:03:31< norbert_> or is it just my imagination
20100312 04:12:57< norbert_> lalala
20100312 04:23:06< shadowmaster> yes, it is your imagination
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20100312 04:30:29< shadowmaster> like the rest, I'm off to bed now
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20100312 04:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 73 bugs, 253 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100312 10:56:26< Ivanovic> moin
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20100312 11:27:27< Ivanovic> esr: what exactly is the bug why you want to break the stringfreeze (hopefully) this shortly before the release of 1.8?
20100312 11:27:59< Ivanovic> esr: that is: if the special unit, that has the gold, dies, what about just not displaying the dialog "you get the gold"?
20100312 11:28:00< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100312 11:30:11< esr> Ivanovic: I've changed it to make retrival of the gold not conditional on Sisal surviving, which fixes the dialog bug. I'll write a real fix in 1.9.
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20100312 11:35:06< Ivanovic> mkay
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--- Log opened Fri Mar 12 13:33:02 2010
20100312 13:33:14-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 13:33:14-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: string/feature freeze active! | 73 bugs, 253 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100312 13:33:14-!- Topic set by wesbot [~wesbot@wesnoth/bot/wesbot] [Fri Mar 12 04:42:34 2010]
20100312 13:33:14[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20100312 13:33:14[ AI0867 ] [ fendrin ] [ loonybot ] [ Smar ]
20100312 13:33:14[ AnMaster ] [ fkhodkov ] [ loonycyborg ] [ stikonas ]
20100312 13:33:14[ apoi ] [ freim ] [ lukjad86 ] [ teaser ]
20100312 13:33:14[ Appleman1234] [ happygrue] [ migge ] [ Tesafilmchen]
20100312 13:33:14[ Becquerel ] [ Ingmar ] [ mjs-de ] [ Tigge_ ]
20100312 13:33:14[ Chusslove ] [ isaac ] [ Mythological] [ Vetinari ]
20100312 13:33:14[ CIA-53 ] [ Ivanovic ] [ Reoz_Dragon ] [ wesbot ]
20100312 13:33:14[ derek_g ] [ iwaim ] [ Rhonda ] [ yann ]
20100312 13:33:14[ dtiger ] [ Ken_Oh ] [ shadowmaster] [ Zarel ]
20100312 13:33:14[ esr ] [ knotwork ] [ shikadibot ] [ zookeeper ]
20100312 13:33:14[ ettin ] [ lobby ] [ Sirp ]
20100312 13:33:14-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 43 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 43 normal]
20100312 13:33:14!hubbard.freenode.net [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
20100312 13:33:19-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 13:33:20-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
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20100312 14:25:34< CIA-53> crab * r41549 /trunk/ (changelog src/unit_types.cpp): Fix bug #15542: if game encounters a base_unit that refers to a unit that the game cannot find, throw exception instead of failing assertion.
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20100312 14:43:20< Crab_> wesbot: topic
20100312 14:43:23-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 71 bugs, 253 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100312 15:20:54-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100312 15:23:06< happygrue> fendrin: I have a bit of time right now, are you still interested in some MP LoW?
20100312 15:23:34-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100312 15:26:56< Ivanovic> have i mentioned that it sucks if people reply to bug reports by mail?
20100312 15:38:51< Ivanovic> Soliton: around?
20100312 15:39:03< Ivanovic> Soliton: something seems to be broken on the server, i can't connect to the mp or addon server
20100312 15:39:23< happygrue> also wesnoth.org
20100312 15:39:32< Ivanovic> 20100312 15:39:18 error network: caught network::error: Could not connect to host.
20100312 15:39:41< Ivanovic> happygrue: wesnoth.org works for me (the website that is)
20100312 15:39:57< happygrue> hum
20100312 15:40:07< happygrue> still not for me
20100312 15:40:25< happygrue> http://units.wesnoth.org/ works though
20100312 15:40:46< Ivanovic> uhm, exactly this one does not work for me...
20100312 15:41:01< happygrue> ????
20100312 15:41:08< Ivanovic> lovely, something is really broken somewhere...
20100312 15:41:14< happygrue> the forums and everyting under wesnoth.org is not working for me
20100312 15:41:17< Ivanovic> Rhonda: do you have any idea what might have gone boom?
20100312 15:42:00< happygrue> aha
20100312 15:42:08< loonycyborg> ssh to server doesn't seem to work for me.
20100312 15:42:08< happygrue> wesnoth.org works for opera but not chrome
20100312 15:42:17< happygrue> I'm guessing firefox also works for wesnoth.org
20100312 15:42:23< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: ssh works for me
20100312 15:42:38< loonycyborg> Must be some DNS issue or something..
20100312 15:43:39< happygrue> Ivanovic: you say units.wesnoth.org does not work for you? everything seems to work for me using opera
20100312 15:43:41< loonycyborg> It definitely fails to resolve wesnoth.org for me.
20100312 15:45:21< happygrue> wow, I guess it is hit or miss for me. Some things (random forum topics, some wiki) work, and others seem to be not working atm.
20100312 15:45:54< loonycyborg> happygrue: That could be explained by dns caching.
20100312 15:47:24< happygrue> server seems to be available to some people at least.
20100312 15:47:57< happygrue> loonycyborg: so not our fault in other words?
20100312 15:48:45< loonycyborg> Unless you have a different issue than me, yes.
20100312 15:49:52< happygrue> I have all kinds of issues! :D
20100312 15:50:05< happygrue> oh, you mean the connection problem... ;)
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20100312 15:56:23< Rhonda> Ivanovic: What IP do you get from DNS, does a connection work via telnet?
20100312 15:56:58< Ivanovic> looks like some dns entries are really f**cked up, wesnoth.org does point to the correct one, some others seem to not
20100312 15:57:01< Rhonda> hmm
20100312 15:57:18< Rhonda> :~$ host wesnoth.org
20100312 15:57:18< Rhonda> wesnoth.org has address 65.18.193.12
20100312 15:57:18< Rhonda> Host wesnoth.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
20100312 15:57:18< Rhonda> Host wesnoth.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
20100312 15:57:22< boucman> hey all
20100312 15:57:22< Rhonda> That's … strange.
20100312 15:57:27< boucman> esr: around ?
20100312 15:58:33< loonycyborg> Rhonda: I'm using opendns and it fails horribly when looking up wesnoth.org
20100312 15:58:39< Rhonda> Our registrar seem to have gone astray.
20100312 15:58:47< Sirp> Ivanovic: FYI there's going to be a scheduled reboot of the Wesnoth server later this evening.
20100312 15:58:51< Ivanovic> http://pastebin.com/u6Qkab4Q
20100312 15:58:59< Sirp> sometime between 10 and 11pm est
20100312 15:59:18< Sirp> should be down for 10-15 minutes. It sounds like they're concerned about some reboots of the server lately and want to make sure everything is okay.
20100312 15:59:20< Ivanovic> our registrar is jexiste
20100312 15:59:37< Ivanovic> Sirp: yes, we are concerned about the reboots, too
20100312 15:59:41< Ivanovic> they happen too often!
20100312 15:59:42< Rhonda> Sirp: dig wesnoth.org @87.98.159.213 and dig wesnoth.org @88.191.226.234 don't turn up any answer. I think there is serious issues with our DNS provider.
20100312 16:00:54< happygrue> hi boucman
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20100312 16:01:28< boucman> hello
20100312 16:01:30< happygrue> I thought of something either really interesting or really stupid that I want to try down the road with your new ally system. :)
20100312 16:03:09< boucman> shoot
20100312 16:03:10< happygrue> I was thinking a game type where you have an "overlord" player who has all info of his team but each other player has only what they can see (but are allied with the team) vs. another similar team. The overload guy would have to use the info to allocate some resources to various sides that need it most and such
20100312 16:03:11< boucman> :)
20100312 16:03:31< boucman> that could be interesting
20100312 16:03:44< happygrue> It might be a fantastic failure, but I have been thinking about it a while and I realize that with the ally system it should be possible to experiment with
20100312 16:04:13< happygrue> so you have a commander on each side and then it would simulate "real combat" more, with the grand general setting strategy and each player in charge of the tactics
20100312 16:05:08< zookeeper> well..
20100312 16:05:13< happygrue> perhaps in combination with a preset scenario, with only the commander able to recruit and send units to various sides. Anyway I'm looking forward to visiting the idea after the system is up
20100312 16:06:05< happygrue> perhaps it would be no fun at all for the commander without (many) units to push, but it could be interesting.
20100312 16:06:37< happygrue> a timer would also be key.
20100312 16:06:48< zookeeper> in theory the commander could just tell the players all that he sees, so there'd be no point in restricting the individual players' vision
20100312 16:06:53< happygrue> yes
20100312 16:06:58< happygrue> that would be a problem
20100312 16:07:05< happygrue> I think a pretty short timer would help
20100312 16:07:07< zookeeper> otherwise that just results in lots and lots of redundant chat
20100312 16:07:11< happygrue> though there would be lots of team chat anyway
20100312 16:07:27< happygrue> that is a perhaps enough of a problem to kill it
20100312 16:07:42< happygrue> it only works if people are not labeling all the info and chatting about everything
20100312 16:07:54< happygrue> if it works at all ;)
20100312 16:08:10< zookeeper> yeah, i think you'd need to change that somehow
20100312 16:10:14< zookeeper> that is, the commander probably can't really be allied with any of the players while having access to extra information
20100312 16:11:00< happygrue> hmm
20100312 16:12:01< happygrue> some sort of limit on communication anyway. Perhaps it could just be a code of honor to test the concept
20100312 16:12:17< happygrue> labeling only with some restrictions
20100312 16:13:04< boucman> commander can only recruit (leader has 0MP)all recruited units are immediatly transfered to an ally player
20100312 16:13:08< happygrue> boucman: using allied chat was not one of the specs was it?
20100312 16:13:17< happygrue> that would be an interesting thing to include
20100312 16:13:17< boucman> except for bats which the commander keeps
20100312 16:13:26< boucman> now play with shroud and fog of war :)
20100312 16:13:33< happygrue> hehe
20100312 16:13:38< happygrue> that might work
20100312 16:14:02< boucman> happygrue: i'm not sure, the specs wer more of a guideline, i'm sure there are still some concepts missing tha would be found while coding
20100312 16:14:07< happygrue> boucman: I was thinking of something like that either the commander moves around to recruit, or just teleports to a point and transfers to the player
20100312 16:14:21< zookeeper> i'm not really fond of artificial limitations on communication
20100312 16:14:37< happygrue> zookeeper: yes, that might be the biggest hurdle
20100312 16:14:44< happygrue> a fast time limit might be enough
20100312 16:14:52< happygrue> just not enough time to label in detail
20100312 16:15:04< happygrue> with each player having ~ 10 units
20100312 16:15:09< happygrue> maybe 4v4
20100312 16:15:38< zookeeper> i get a feeling there might be something to the general idea, but not sure how...
20100312 16:16:01< happygrue> yeah, I was thinking Ender's Game and how to apply that concept
20100312 16:16:15< zookeeper> something like giving the commander information that he _doesn't_ want to share with the players
20100312 16:16:16< happygrue> making it actually fun would be a challanege
20100312 16:16:34< happygrue> what do you mean?
20100312 16:16:37< zookeeper> that is, they're in theory on the same team, but in the end only one can win, either one of the players or the commander
20100312 16:16:53< zookeeper> so basically the commander would be trying to manipulate the players somehow
20100312 16:17:10< happygrue> maybe the players win by accomplishing objectives that the commander sets
20100312 16:17:12< zookeeper> and the commander would have some kind of a secret winning condition
20100312 16:17:16< happygrue> "kill those units" "capture that"
20100312 16:17:23< happygrue> and the commander wins some other way
20100312 16:17:46< happygrue> or scores points, and the team adds points together vs the other team
20100312 16:18:13< happygrue> they still have to have similar enough goals to win "as a team" or else the players would just do the opposite
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20100312 16:21:58< zookeeper> some kind of a system where the commander only has some special...things he can make happen. sort of like if he had a limited deck of special event cards which he could use to help a player
20100312 16:22:22< zookeeper> eh, i don't know
20100312 16:22:28< zookeeper> not very commander'ish anymore
20100312 16:22:34< happygrue> that is a great idea though
20100312 16:22:38< happygrue> worth thinking about
20100312 16:22:46< happygrue> kind of like TL's archmage mod
20100312 16:22:50< happygrue> did you ever see that?
20100312 16:23:05< zookeeper> i'm not sure if i ever tried it, but i think i know what it's like
20100312 16:23:42< happygrue> computer controled units on your side, you cast spells on them, or take control of them to move if you need to IIRC
20100312 16:23:57< zookeeper> right, yeah, i briefly tried it
20100312 16:23:59< happygrue> survival style
20100312 16:24:09< happygrue> anyway, worth thinking about.
20100312 16:24:33< happygrue> by the way, what are people's current attitudes toward the ladder?
20100312 16:24:49< happygrue> force for good? more trouble than good? indifferent?
20100312 16:25:29< boucman> wiki is down ?
20100312 16:25:36< happygrue> I am technically a ladder admin, though not very active there. I am curious what people are thinking since it is pretty established now
20100312 16:25:41< happygrue> boucman: log just before you arrived
20100312 16:26:28< happygrue> boucman: short version is 'sort of' ?
20100312 16:26:33< boucman> irclog is down :P
20100312 16:26:53< Ivanovic> someone around who knows how syncing of generated units in multiplayer should work?
20100312 16:27:09< Ivanovic> if there is someone, then just have a look at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15541
20100312 16:27:15< Ivanovic> maybe ilor knows this, no idea
20100312 16:27:19< Ivanovic> boucman: the logs are not down
20100312 16:27:29< Ivanovic> http://wesnoth.org/irclogs/2010/03/
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20100312 16:27:49< happygrue> Ivanovic: down for me also, hehe
20100312 16:27:51< boucman> irclog.wesnoth.org doesn't answer but your link does
20100312 16:27:57< happygrue> ha
20100312 16:28:07< happygrue> that link is broken for me
20100312 16:28:11< Gambit> Hmm
20100312 16:28:28< Ivanovic> happygrue: then use this one: http://65.18.193.12/irclogs/2010/03/
20100312 16:28:50< Ivanovic> boucman: looks like there are currently some dns troubles...
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20100312 16:36:31< zookeeper> happygrue, the thing is that in a TBS a commander is pretty much redundant
20100312 16:36:49< zookeeper> (well, i guess you could say that having several players on the same team in a TBS is already redundant...)
20100312 16:37:53< happygrue> zookeeper: it can be a really fun kind of redundent though!
20100312 16:38:03< zookeeper> somehow i'd just like to see the commander playing against the players or something :P
20100312 16:38:10< happygrue> of course it makes your team worse, but having to work together brings something else to the game
20100312 16:38:19< happygrue> haha
20100312 16:38:40< happygrue> I get the image of the evel DM trying to kill off all the players...
20100312 16:39:14< zookeeper> like if there's a big maze and the commander loses if the players find location X, and the commander can drop enemies and other obstacles wherever he wants within some limits
20100312 16:40:05< happygrue> that could also be interesting
20100312 16:41:03< happygrue> I was also thinking about using your choose your recruits era. So the commander would pick which recruits to be available, then who gets which units, where extra resources go and that sort of thing
20100312 16:41:38< happygrue> since factoin mixing would already be a problem
20100312 16:41:48< happygrue> why not go all the way!
20100312 16:42:27< happygrue> oo, actually it could be a commander race, still two teams but the commanders trying to get one of their teams through first
20100312 16:42:31< happygrue> killing the other teams and such
20100312 16:42:44< zookeeper> just have a survival with the commander playing the creeps ;)
20100312 16:42:51< happygrue> ha
20100312 16:42:56< happygrue> yeah, that would be great also
20100312 16:43:28< zookeeper> i'm still trying to think of some way to have the commander be on the same team as the players yet still trying to outsmart them himself
20100312 16:45:05< happygrue> did you ever play the "skullduggery" mod?
20100312 16:45:09< happygrue> it was team survival
20100312 16:45:15< zookeeper> errh, i meant to, but i guess i never did..
20100312 16:45:24< happygrue> where you could drop bombs and such on the other team
20100312 16:45:29< happygrue> but it added monsters to your side
20100312 16:45:43< happygrue> having two dueling commanders there might be fun
20100312 16:45:58< happygrue> each controling something helpful for their team and the monsters against the other team
20100312 16:46:17< happygrue> though that gets away from the shared info it still might be fun
20100312 16:47:07< happygrue> hehe, there are enough ideas generated here for mods to last for years of implementation... :(
20100312 16:47:48< zookeeper> i'm not happy with any of the ideas so far :P
20100312 16:47:52 * zookeeper is picky
20100312 16:48:06< happygrue> fine, I'll take your ideas and run with them
20100312 16:48:18< happygrue> I'll start... tomorrow... :P
20100312 16:48:46< happygrue> I agree though, I want to have it all worked out before starting
20100312 16:48:51< happygrue> and nothing has quite clicked yet
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20100312 16:51:53< zookeeper> i've been trying to think of a way to make something like this work...
20100312 16:53:44< zookeeper> eh, nevermind
20100312 16:55:04< zookeeper> i'll go outside for a moment, maybe that'll bring something neat to my mind
20100312 16:55:14< happygrue> zookeeper: it better. I want results!
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20100312 17:18:23< zookeeper> happygrue, sorry, didn't work :P
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20100312 17:39:05< happygrue> zookeeper: I'm putting you on probationary status and docking your pay. Let's not let this happen again.
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20100312 17:46:54< Ivanovic> boucman: is there *anything* that we should list here? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Information_for_Google#Is_there_anything_else_you_would_like_to_tell_the_Google_Summer_of_Code_program_administration_team.3F_:
20100312 17:47:40< Ivanovic> i now exactly copied the questions from the google form to our wiki pages and left just those that google does actually ask (as in "mentors" are not explicitly asked for at the application time (though the "how do you select mentors" is of course still valid and there)
20100312 17:47:54< Ivanovic> there are still some 6h left till the deadline of the application period
20100312 17:48:01< Ivanovic> though i will be away for most of the evening
20100312 17:48:22< boucman> for next year, it would be nice if the organisation questionnaire was provided a bit earlier so we have more time to update and review. I'm not asking for a longer submission period, just to have the questionnaire earlier
20100312 17:48:44< boucman> Ivanovic: it would be nice if you got esr to review it, at least for language
20100312 17:49:06< Ivanovic> boucman: please send this request to the google mentor ml
20100312 17:49:08< Ivanovic> ;)
20100312 17:49:13< boucman> true
20100312 17:49:29< Ivanovic> esr: can you have a short look at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Information_for_Google and sanity/prose check it?
20100312 17:49:42< boucman> not sure what we could add here, since most stuff go to the mentor ML, maybe it's here for those that wern't on the google ml from last year
20100312 17:50:18< Ivanovic> in general the list is rather similar
20100312 17:50:32< Ivanovic> they just ask for a little more about the previous years (as in "more details")
20100312 17:50:42< Ivanovic> beside this the whole list of questions is rather identical
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20100312 18:07:34< esr> Ivanovic: Tch. Germanic excessive "do" in the first paragraph. You'r backsliding :-)
20100312 18:10:46< elias> let us have our excessive does and excessive commas :P
20100312 18:11:23< boucman> anybody has any idea how the castle exploder works???
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20100312 18:15:46< Ivanovic> esr: nah, that one is ancient!
20100312 18:15:51< Ivanovic> esr: some years old by now!
20100312 18:16:21< Ivanovic> boucman: magic?
20100312 18:17:03< boucman> the problem is that actually it doesn't work :P
20100312 18:17:09< boucman> I just fixed it, commiting
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20100312 18:20:20< CIA-53> boucman * r41550 /trunk/data/tools/exploder/models/castle.cfg: fix castle exploder
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20100312 18:28:43< esr> boucman: Since you fixed it, can you *gasp* document it?
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20100312 18:32:57< zookeeper> happygrue, waah.
20100312 18:34:21< boucman> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CastleTutorial
20100312 18:34:32< boucman> esr: the way I debuged, I don't know much more than that
20100312 18:34:44< boucman> in particular I have no idea what the differnt wml stuff is for
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20100312 19:05:59< esr> Ivanovic: Page revised.
20100312 19:07:17-!- norbert_ [~norbert@82-171-70-54.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 19:07:25< norbert_> under GNU/Linux (Debian stable; Gnome, X11), how can I copy from the chat log (alt-c) ?
20100312 19:07:34< norbert_> ctrl-c and select/middle mouse won't work
20100312 19:07:36< Ivanovic> norbert_: in your bugreports, please do reply via the webinterface, not via mail
20100312 19:07:55< Ivanovic> middle mouse button *should* work if X11 support is compiled in
20100312 19:08:32< norbert_> I can't reply there because the reports are private
20100312 19:08:35< Ivanovic> not sure from where to where you can exactly copy
20100312 19:08:40< Ivanovic> argh
20100312 19:08:41< norbert_> and I don't want them public because of my e-mail address
20100312 19:08:45< norbert_> and I don't want to register
20100312 19:08:51< Ivanovic> you really should get yourself an account at gna and use that to report!
20100312 19:08:59< norbert_> ^
20100312 19:09:10< Ivanovic> or use anonymus reports, monitor them by hand and reply
20100312 19:09:22< Ivanovic> the problem with mail replies is that the replies are easily lost
20100312 19:09:29< Ivanovic> afk for ~30mins
20100312 19:09:40< norbert_> if it *should* work, I will file a bug report
20100312 19:09:51< norbert_> because all applications do it, almost except wesnoth
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20100312 19:20:19< norbert_> done https://gna.org/bugs/?15588
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20100312 19:39:39< Ivanovic> esr: okay, added your changes
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20100312 20:06:59< norbert_> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/FdpsBvs5
20100312 20:08:25< norbert_> could maybe use a tooltip
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20100312 20:21:27< Ivanovic> Crab_: you saw silenes update in the report about OOS errors?
20100312 20:21:41< Ivanovic> Crab_: i assume that campaigns also do rely on placing units
20100312 20:22:00< Ivanovic> that is: i am sure that eg fendrin uses it in LoW and thus this bug might break LoW multiplayer campaign
20100312 20:22:02< Crab_> bug #, please
20100312 20:22:14< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15541
20100312 20:22:48< Crab_> ok, i'll take a look
20100312 20:23:05< Ivanovic> that is: the out of sync part might also be related to https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15560
20100312 20:23:13< Ivanovic> (as in "at least partly the same cause")
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20100312 20:33:29< Crab_> Ivanovic: yes. the cause is quite clear - I create units without using our global MP rng, so they go out of sync. will fix soon.
20100312 20:33:42< Ivanovic> okay
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20100312 20:49:50< Crab_> Ivanovic: dark forecast issue seems unrelated (Dark Forecast has random_traits=no on all spawns)
20100312 20:49:59< Ivanovic> okay
20100312 20:50:19< Ivanovic> there it is probably really some mess with random being broken
20100312 20:50:34< Ivanovic> that is zookeeper already had a look at it but has no idea what is supposed to work for mp and what not
20100312 20:53:43< Crab_> we really need a 'pedantic mode' for MP which detects OOSes immediately, by comparing all game state information after each action.
20100312 20:54:31< Ivanovic> yes, could be helpfull
20100312 20:56:26 * Crab_ goes on to add a NotSoEasyCoding entry...
20100312 20:56:32< Ivanovic> :)
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20100312 21:00:20< Zarel> ...
20100312 21:00:31< Zarel> https://gna.org/bugs/?14770
20100312 21:00:44< Zarel> Links to copies of the bug in like seven different trackers, and none of them are the SDL tracker. :[
20100312 21:15:29< CIA-53> crab * r41551 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog src/actions.cpp): Fix bug #15541: fix OOS on [unit] tag generating different traits because of usage of local RNG instead of MP RNG.
20100312 21:15:50< Crab_> Ivanovic: ^
20100312 21:27:28< Ivanovic> Zarel: the sdl lead dev is in the CC list
20100312 21:27:40< Ivanovic> though feel free to add a reference to the sdl tracker, if it is reported there...
20100312 21:28:31< Ivanovic> Crab_: great!
20100312 21:28:44< Ivanovic> Crab_: can you also have a look at dark forecast to see what breaks things there?
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20100312 21:29:05< Crab_> ok. any ideas about how-to-reproduce, apart from 'just playing' ?
20100312 21:29:28< Ivanovic> no, had no look at it so far myself
20100312 21:29:32< Crab_> ok
20100312 21:29:33< Ivanovic> though you will need to start two clients
20100312 21:29:43< Crab_> of course :)
20100312 21:29:48< Ivanovic> :)
20100312 21:32:00< LucaMoller> Hello guys! I'm new around here and possibly a candidate student for GSoC this year.
20100312 21:32:09< Ivanovic> cool, LucaMoller
20100312 21:32:11< Crab_> hi, LucaMoller
20100312 21:32:15< Ivanovic> what are you interested in doing?
20100312 21:32:41< LucaMoller> Crab_ 's idea of IA scripting in lua sounded very interesting to me
20100312 21:34:03< LucaMoller> Right now, I'm trying to donwload things and set up an enviroment to compile the project
20100312 21:34:03< Ivanovic> have you already managed to compile wesnoth yourself?
20100312 21:34:11< Ivanovic> ha, good timing!
20100312 21:34:14< LucaMoller> hehe
20100312 21:34:56< LucaMoller> When I make it, I would like to look a little closer where the wor would be
20100312 21:35:30< Crab_> LucaMoller: yes, I've (with the help of silene) recently added Lua support to the AI, but it will need a library of support functions to be easier to use.
20100312 21:35:37< LucaMoller> I've got some experience with C++, but none with lua yet (though I've heard some interesting thisngs about it)
20100312 21:36:25< Crab_> LucaMoller: wesnoth uses lua directly, so it's quite easy to set up separate c++ project to play with 'calling lua from c++ and c++ from lua'
20100312 21:36:46< Ivanovic> which OS are you using, LucaMoller?
20100312 21:37:00< LucaMoller> Right now Im in windows
20100312 21:37:02< Ivanovic> setting up things to compile on linux is dead easy, on windows it is a lot more challengin
20100312 21:37:06< LucaMoller> but i can move to ubuntu
20100312 21:37:13< LucaMoller> hummm
20100312 21:37:25< LucaMoller> that was something I was about to ask
20100312 21:37:36< Ivanovic> yeah, i can read peoples minds
20100312 21:37:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20100312 21:38:08< Crab_> Ivanovic: well, I've compiled on windows recently, and I've *almost* managed to trick cmake into generating a correct MSVC project file for me (it compiles, but there's still some minor linking issues to solve)
20100312 21:38:14< LucaMoller> Then I think I'll try to set the compiling enviroment in linux instead
20100312 21:38:23< Ivanovic> Crab_: that is cool
20100312 21:38:45< Ivanovic> would be great if you found out what the issue is so that we can fix it in the cmake recipe
20100312 21:39:11< Ivanovic> LucaMoller: in linux it is one line telling your package manager the packages you need and then you are basically done
20100312 21:39:21< Crab_> Ivanovic: well, there's no issues, I just need some time to finish it up
20100312 21:39:27< LucaMoller> cool
20100312 21:39:31< Ivanovic> (okay, you got to fetch the sources afterwards and follow the compile guidlines, but that is copy&paste)
20100312 21:39:45< Ivanovic> cf http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnoth
20100312 21:40:45< LucaMoller> Its sounds much better anyway (i've spent some time getting things for windows and I think i'm far from finishing)
20100312 21:40:49< Ivanovic> for ubuntu this is what you can use: sudo apt-get build-dep wesnoth && sudo apt-get install liblua-5.1-dev
20100312 21:41:34< Ivanovic> (the first one installs the packages ubuntu knows it needs regarding the build commands it has in the version it ships, since that is outdated, you need another additional package)
20100312 21:41:35< Crab_> LucaMoller: ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/msvc9/external.tar.gz - all the 'things' for windows, ~50mb compressed
20100312 21:42:08< Crab_> LucaMoller: but still, linux will be easier, as of now.
20100312 21:42:24< Ivanovic> personally i'd go for compiling with cmake, to be able to do so just get cmake, too: sudo apt-get install cmake
20100312 21:43:21< Ivanovic> (yes, i love installing packages with linux, makes life really easy...)
20100312 21:44:05< LucaMoller> ok, I think will have some free time today, so I'll try to set things up in linux and and doing some dig up to learn more about the project
20100312 21:44:39< Ivanovic> don't forget to play a little, too
20100312 21:44:41< Ivanovic> ;)
20100312 21:45:01< LucaMoller> hehehe
20100312 21:45:08< LucaMoller> sute ^^
20100312 21:45:11< LucaMoller> sure ^^
20100312 21:45:29< Ivanovic> hey, wesnoth is a game, developing wesnoth is meant to be fun, which means you should also play a little every now and tehn
20100312 21:45:31< Ivanovic> ;)
20100312 21:46:39< Crab_> and here's a little and easy bug to fix, if you want to fix something - https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?14114
20100312 21:48:25< LucaMoller> ok
20100312 21:48:29< Crab_> basically, in some specific and easy-to-reproduce circumstances, the game references a unit which is not there, and things go boom.
20100312 21:49:26< Crab_> you can fix it and submit a small patch to patches.wesnoth.org, to get a feel how patches are submitted and what the code style guidelines are. (see http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CodingStandards and http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9979 )
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20100312 21:51:10< Crab_> (to reproduce you'd need to start wesnoth in multiplayer debug mode, with -d command-line option)
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20100312 21:53:38< LucaMoller> ok, ill take a look at it when I get things working
20100312 21:53:59< Crab_> good luck, feel free to ask questions
20100312 21:54:45< LucaMoller> thanks! ;)
20100312 21:55:20< Crab_> thanks to you, too
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20100312 21:59:23< LucaMoller> I'll eat something. Nice to meet you guys! (ill come back later)
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20100312 21:59:53< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok, already see some OOSes in Dark Forecast (harmess so far, like spawned units with 2/4 mp on one side and 0/4 mp on another)
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20100312 22:16:06< Ivanovic> Crab_: would be nice to not have those happen though
20100312 22:16:19< Ivanovic> especially if the units do move right after spawning which would lead to OOS
20100312 22:16:38< Crab_> no, those units do not move after spawning...
20100312 22:18:25-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100312 22:20:02< Crab_> Ivanovic: oh, got a real OOS - unit spawned with half HP on one side, and with full hp on another.
20100312 22:20:19< Ivanovic> nice one
20100312 22:20:40< Ivanovic> and now to check the reply and find the "real" differences between both side and where the error might be
20100312 22:20:50< Crab_> that is, both have 18 hp, but one is a goblin spearman (18/18) and another is a goblin rouser (18/31)
20100312 22:21:00< Ivanovic> uhm, okay
20100312 22:21:07< Ivanovic> so a completely different unit was spawned...
20100312 22:21:10< Crab_> yes
20100312 22:21:25< Ivanovic> sounds like different rng seeds being used or something like this
20100312 22:21:32< Ivanovic> maybe ilor knows something about this part, no idea
20100312 22:22:24< Crab_> that is, it is in 3rd group of spawns (there's two such mismatches)
20100312 22:22:35< Crab_> or even in 4rd..
20100312 22:22:45< Crab_> s/4rd/4th
20100312 22:24:30< Crab_> heh, one of my wesnothes crashed with "X Error of failed request: BadWindow (invalid Window parameter)". luckily, I've saved the game just before that
20100312 22:24:49< Ivanovic> lovely wml
20100312 22:24:58< Ivanovic> okay, i do understand that zookeeper does not want to touch it at all!
20100312 22:25:19< Crab_> that's not WML, that's most likely gui- i wasn't playing at that time, just saving games
20100312 22:26:44< Ivanovic> Crab_: but the issue might be related to some random stuff not working via network as expected
20100312 22:26:54< Ivanovic> and looking at the wml i am not suprised that things don't work
20100312 22:27:02< Ivanovic> looks like "extra compilcated mess" to me
20100312 22:27:15< Crab_> I'll see. now I know that OOSes are real and present in my version, I can debug that extra complicated mess further.
20100312 22:29:46< Crab_> I think that DarkForecast's ADJUST_UNIT_LEVEL macro is somehow involved in the mess, as mismatches are 'same units but one of them is a different level but with same hp'
20100312 22:30:03< Crab_> and all is good for first spawns, which are all L1
20100312 22:33:45< Ivanovic> and how comes the different movement at spawn time?
20100312 22:34:37< Crab_> don't know yet (that's probably related to movement adjustments that DF does, and that's not really important atm because it hasn't led to ooses. I want to fix that level mismatch first.
20100312 22:34:56< Ivanovic> sure
20100312 22:35:42< Ivanovic> what i am mainly concerned of is just not broken wml in one scenario but finding (and documenting!) cases where the engine is not really "multiplayer compatible"
20100312 22:36:11< Crab_> Ivanovic: the issue with level mismatch can be an engine bug, too.
20100312 22:36:35< Crab_> Ivanovic: e.g. "unit type change not properly synced", or something like that
20100312 22:36:37< Ivanovic> if things behave differently on a local box and a remote box, i believe that it is engine related
20100312 22:37:00< Crab_> it depends on how the things are changed on local box...
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20100312 22:39:36< Ivanovic> hi Sapient
20100312 22:39:47< Sapient> yo Ivanovic
20100312 22:40:26< Sapient> you need more witty one-liners for the fortunes? ;)
20100312 22:40:40< Ivanovic> uhm, shadowmaster maintains those
20100312 22:40:44< Ivanovic> rough guess: sure!
20100312 22:41:09< Sapient> ok, I'll consider it a Blocker
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20100312 22:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 71 bugs, 253 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100312 22:42:45< Ivanovic> what do you consider blocker?
20100312 22:44:17< Sapient> uh... coming up with something funny, of course (I guess my joke didn't translate into German too well)
20100312 22:48:21< Ivanovic> ah, uhm, okay
20100312 22:51:44-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 22:55:04< Ivanovic> just heard something important in #gsof:
20100312 22:55:20< Ivanovic> [22:52:18] ojwb: that's awesome. i know he got a whole bunch of chocolate at the musicbrainz summit last year too. i think he's the chocolate guy :-)
20100312 22:55:24< Ivanovic> [22:53:12] carols: I think it's a common "thank you" in their community
20100312 22:55:29< Ivanovic> [22:53:26] indeed
20100312 22:55:33< Ivanovic> [22:53:36] we bribe our release manager with chocolate as well at samba
20100312 22:55:38< Ivanovic> [22:54:15] we tried james bond dvds before, but they don't produce the movies fast enough to keep up with the release cycle
20100312 22:55:48< Ivanovic> now the important question: where is my bribe?!?
20100312 22:55:49< Ivanovic> ;)+
20100312 22:55:59-!- Aethaery1 [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 22:56:23< Sapient> ah, that's what we should start telling people in the forums who complain about the 1.8 release time
20100312 22:56:47< Ivanovic> great idea!
20100312 22:56:51-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20100312 22:56:53-!- Aethaery1 is now known as Aethaeryn
20100312 22:57:27< Crab_> hehe
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20100312 22:58:42< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok, reproduced the bug outside dark forecast, in a sandbox
20100312 22:58:51< Ivanovic> cool!
20100312 22:58:55< Crab_> {TRANSFORM_UNIT } macro is not mp-safe
20100312 23:00:05< Aethaeryn> This isn't asking about the *date*, but rather the *versions*...
20100312 23:00:14< Aethaeryn> How many more betas are we to expect before release candidates?
20100312 23:00:20< Crab_> and Dark forecast, in certain conditions, sets {VARIABLE use_somehack yes}, and, if it's yes, uses that macro...
20100312 23:00:23< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: n
20100312 23:00:41< Crab_> (it's really named 'use_somehack' )
20100312 23:00:43< Ivanovic> with n>=1
20100312 23:00:45< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: not n-1?
20100312 23:00:50< Ivanovic> nope, n
20100312 23:01:32< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: oh, I'll update the Latin translation eventually, btw. The 80 betas has encouraged me to procrastinate Wesnoth in favor of things like grades
20100312 23:01:42< Aethaeryn> maybe sometime this coming week since it's spring break
20100312 23:03:42-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@c169239.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100312 23:04:05< YogiHH> hello
20100312 23:04:25-!- gabm [~gabm@72.0.215.118] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 23:04:46< Ivanovic> hi YogiHH
20100312 23:07:32< Sapient> Crab_: why is TRANSFORM_UNIT not MP-safe ?
20100312 23:07:59< Crab_> Sapient: it works on server, but is ignored on client.
20100312 23:08:34< Sapient> the server maintains its own gamestate now?
20100312 23:08:48< Crab_> by server I mean 'player 1', by client 'player 2'
20100312 23:08:53< Crab_> sorry for the confusion
20100312 23:09:15< Crab_> Sapient: so, it works for player 1, but is ignored by player 2.
20100312 23:09:31< Sapient> ah, the active player (or the hosting player?)
20100312 23:09:46< Crab_> active, i think
20100312 23:10:37< Sapient> could be a bug in the replay code then
20100312 23:10:45< Crab_> note that ADVANCE_UNIT seems mp safe
20100312 23:10:59 * Ivanovic heard the word "replay" and looks at YogiHH
20100312 23:11:09 * YogiHH hides...
20100312 23:11:17< Crab_> YogiHH: I've got a 3-line patch to MPC_Sandbox to reproduce the bug
20100312 23:11:20 * Ivanovic removed the cover from YogiHH
20100312 23:11:54-!- Gambit is now known as Gambit|AFK|FF13
20100312 23:11:54< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Traitor ;)
20100312 23:12:14< Ivanovic> release manager that is not bribed enough!
20100312 23:12:16< Ivanovic> ;)
20100312 23:12:41< YogiHH> Crab_: TRANSFORM_UNIT is a macro?
20100312 23:12:48< Crab_> yes
20100312 23:12:56< Crab_> data/core/unit-utils.cfg
20100312 23:13:05< Crab_> oops, data/core/macros/unit-utils.cfg
20100312 23:13:26< fendrin> crimson_penguin: build?
20100312 23:13:54< YogiHH> Crab_: what is it doing roughly?
20100312 23:14:32< Crab_> copy, advance, merge
20100312 23:14:50< fendrin> Crab_: I am currently working on the gamestate inspector. Having some questions about it...
20100312 23:14:55-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100312 23:15:02< Crab_> YogiHH: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/9p8cGpiG
20100312 23:15:05< Crab_> fendrin: yes ?
20100312 23:16:01< fendrin> Crab_: The class variable_mode_controller fills the model with datas. But shouldn't be that indeependent from each other in the MVC design pattern?
20100312 23:16:42< fendrin> I believe you implemented a modified MCV design, not matching the one in my book, did you?
20100312 23:16:59< Crab_> yes, i won't be surprised if it's modified.
20100312 23:17:26< Crab_> but, they do vary from place to place.
20100312 23:17:52< Crab_> in gamestate_inspector case, 'model' is quite passive, and controller is the actor
20100312 23:19:04< fendrin> So having a different model for my new purpose is not the way to go, but writting a controller that fills the model different?
20100312 23:19:16< Crab_> yes
20100312 23:19:41< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41552 /trunk/ (8 files in 7 dirs): updated Czech translation
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20100312 23:22:52< zookeeper> Crab_, doh. that bug must be my fault -.-
20100312 23:23:06< zookeeper> i think i tried to clean up something by using TRANSFORM_UNIT there
20100312 23:23:28< Crab_> zookeeper: well, we need, if possible, to fix TRANSFORM_UNIT or label it as mp-unsafe
20100312 23:23:40< Crab_> zookeeper: Dark Forecast's usage of it is of secondary concern
20100312 23:24:07< Crab_> zookeeper: although it's not needed there, IMO, advance_unit would work in DF, too
20100312 23:24:48< zookeeper> yeah, i'd suggest trying that
20100312 23:26:55< Sapient> did [set_variables] get moved to Lua ?
20100312 23:27:33< Sapient> if so, it might be a lua integration bug and not a replay bug
20100312 23:28:29< Crab_> 3kb testcase : ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/TRANSFORM_UNIT_BUG.tar.gz
20100312 23:31:54< Crab_> zookeeper: what was the reason of using TRANSFORM_UNIT instead of ADVANCE_UNIT ? are there any bugs that might resurface ?
20100312 23:33:48< zookeeper> Crab_, no particular reason, i think
20100312 23:35:26< crimson_penguin> fendrin: ohh yeah... I am so tired, but maybe I can do it now
20100312 23:35:27< Crab_> how to modify unit movement and attacks to 0 ?
20100312 23:35:43< Crab_> zookeeper: ^ from wml,
20100312 23:35:51< Crab_> knowing x and y
20100312 23:36:55< zookeeper> store the unit (probably stored already), {VARIABLE unitvar.moves 0} and {VARIABLE unitvar.attacks_left 0} and unstore
20100312 23:37:11< zookeeper> in which part (line) do you want to do that?
20100312 23:37:23< zookeeper> or are you working on another test case?
20100312 23:37:30< Crab_> thanks. just after the old TRANSFORM_UNIT call
20100312 23:37:47< Crab_> just replacing it by ADVANCE_UNIT is not enough, and I want to try setting MP and attacks to 0
20100312 23:38:58< zookeeper> then you can just make those calls right before the [unstore_unit] which is a few lines up
20100312 23:39:12< Crab_> ok
20100312 23:39:16< Crab_> thanks
20100312 23:39:22< zookeeper> at least i think advancing/transforming a unit shouldn't touch the remaining moves or attacks, not completely sure
20100312 23:39:40< crimson_penguin> fendrin: anything quick I can test to make sure it works before uploading?
20100312 23:40:03< zookeeper> that is, {VARIABLE new_spawn[$unit_id].moves 0} and {VARIABLE new_spawn[$unit_id].max_attacks 0}
20100312 23:40:14< fendrin> crimson_penguin: Start the editor, file->new side.
20100312 23:40:18< fendrin> Create some of them.
20100312 23:40:36< fendrin> After the sides are in place you can create units for them.
20100312 23:40:52< fendrin> Save the scanario with file->save multiplayer
20100312 23:41:18< fendrin> quit wesnoth, reload it and try to start your new scenario in a local multiplayer game.
20100312 23:41:48< crimson_penguin> too much work, I'll do the first part :P
20100312 23:42:09< crimson_penguin> (my brother's birthday party just started, so I'm trying to get this started uploading asap so I can just leave it)
20100312 23:42:51< zookeeper> Crab_, i'm off to bed, i'll check the log tomorrow if you have something to add..
20100312 23:43:03< Crab_> zookeeper: ok. I'll only add 'more interesting bugs found!' :)
20100312 23:43:11< zookeeper> awesome
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 13 00:00:58 2010