--- Log opened Tue Mar 16 00:00:02 2010
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20100316 00:23:20< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41614 /website/start/1.8/ (index.ja.html po/ja.po): updated Japanese announcement translation
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20100316 00:26:05< Zarel> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=415327#p415327
20100316 00:26:10< Zarel> You know, this guy has a good point.
20100316 00:26:20< CIA-53> caslav_ilic * r41615 /trunk/data/languages/ (sr_RS@ijekavian.cfg sr_RS@ijekavianlatin.cfg): Fixed locale names for sr@ijekavian and sr@ijekavianlatin.
20100316 00:26:22< Zarel> (Not about the RNG)
20100316 00:26:31< Zarel> Maybe we'd have fewer duplicate threads if we fixed the forum search functionality. :P
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20100316 00:28:30< CIA-53> caslav_ilic * r41616 /trunk/doc/man/Makefile.am: Recorded new sr@... variants in autotools files too, just in case.
20100316 00:28:50< ancestral> Zarel: You have to wait 15 seconds
20100316 00:28:54< CIA-53> caslav_ilic * r41617 /trunk/icons/ (wesnoth.desktop wesnoth_editor.desktop): Updated translations for Serbian.
20100316 00:29:03< ancestral> I think it's to prevent the server from getting overwhelmed
20100316 00:29:07< Zarel> ancestral: Which is really unnecessary, for something like paging.
20100316 00:29:16< Zarel> Searches are cached for precisely that reason.
20100316 00:29:28< ancestral> Probably true
20100316 00:29:41< ancestral> I usually try to search through Google
20100316 00:29:43< Zarel> Or, at least, I'm fairly sure they're cached in a default phpBB setup.
20100316 00:29:56< ancestral> site:the.site.com search query here
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20100316 00:30:34< Zarel> ancestral: True, but it offers less fine-grained control like which forums to search, authors, etc.
20100316 00:30:43< Zarel> Plus, its wildcard implementation is pretty screwy.
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20100316 00:30:58< ancestral> Agreed
20100316 00:31:08< ancestral> BTW, Dave's on a roll today with posts! He'll get to 7000 in no time now
20100316 00:31:18< ancestral> :-P
20100316 00:43:57< happygrue> arg, of course I post that idea in #wesnoth and not #wesnoth-dev :(
20100316 00:43:59< happygrue> whoops
20100316 00:44:34 * happygrue smacks forhead
20100316 00:45:02< ancestral> Careful
20100316 00:52:32< shadowmaster> loonycyborg: no, asking in #freenode is rarely a good idea
20100316 00:52:49< shadowmaster> Myth should have sent an email to kline@freenode.net per the server instructions
20100316 00:53:10< shadowmaster> of course, now neither him or krotop are arund
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20100316 01:00:41< loonycyborg> shadowmaster: Why? They at least could tell him about kline@freenode.net :P
20100316 01:01:14< shadowmaster> loonycyborg: they do.
20100316 01:01:23< shadowmaster> in the server notice regarding the ban, duh.
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20100316 01:02:10< shadowmaster> that is, both when the original KLINE is broadcast and propagated across servers and when the affected users tries to connect.
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20100316 01:13:12< shadowmaster> Mythological: you got it solved?
20100316 01:13:34< Mythological> apparently, yes
20100316 01:13:48< shadowmaster> Mythological: did you send an email to kline@freenode.net regarding the issue, I mean?
20100316 01:13:55< Mythological> I did
20100316 01:13:59< shadowmaster> okay
20100316 01:14:22< Mythological> I asked them to remove the ban and told them I did nothing wrong to deserve it
20100316 01:14:34< Mythological> TBH, I dont know what was it all about
20100316 01:14:54< shadowmaster> don't worry, some accidents happen.
20100316 01:15:32< shadowmaster> like when I blew up a 3-page thread (that was rather pointless anyway)...
20100316 01:15:54< Mythological> the reason mantioned was "Evading klines is discouraged on freenode"
20100316 01:16:08< Mythological> I have no clue what that means
20100316 01:16:35< shadowmaster> so someone (no, that information won't be disclosed to non-staffers) was probably evading a ban and someone set an excessively broad one in response, most likely
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20100316 01:17:28< Mythological> maybe you are right, shadowmaster
20100316 01:17:53< Mythological> I've been using irc for almost 15 years, so I know the code of conduct
20100316 01:18:04< Mythological> either way, all is well what ends well
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20100316 01:37:13< esr> Ivanovic: ping?
20100316 01:40:30< CIA-53> torangan * r41618 /trunk/po/wesnoth-sotbe/hu.po: hungarian translation update
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20100316 02:21:14< Mythological> wesbot: seen torangan
20100316 02:21:14< wesbot> Mythological: Sorry, I don't know of torangan.
20100316 02:21:20< Mythological> wesbot: seen mordante
20100316 02:21:20< wesbot> Mythological: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 2h 33m ago.  2h 28m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20100316 02:21:27< Mythological> wesbot: thank you
20100316 02:21:27< wesbot> Mythological: You are welcome.
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20100316 04:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 73 bugs, 254 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100316 04:44:10-!- Salwan [~chatzilla@41.153.48.138] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100316 04:44:23< Salwan> Hi all
20100316 04:50:30< Salwan> I'm planning to start writing code for wesnoth today, and I've noticed several entries in bugs.wesnoth.org that are categorized as a feature request, what is exactly the state for those? are they like future things to consider which are not confirmed yet, or are they like bugs, ie. I can implement them right now
20100316 04:51:09 * Aethaeryn points to the topic, which says "string/feature freeze active"
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20100316 05:05:37< Salwan> Aethaeryn: thanks, I just assumed that may be everything in bugs.wesnoth.org are like... you know..  "bugs", I'm not very bright sometimes :D
20100316 05:08:37< Aethaeryn> Salwan: Well, the bugs have been going down and the feature requests have been piling up ever since the freeze ;)
20100316 05:08:56< Salwan> oh, well
20100316 05:09:01< Aethaeryn> Kinda takes observation over a long period of time to know ;)
20100316 05:09:17< Aethaeryn> Could always work on it and wait to merge it back in though
20100316 05:09:38< Aethaeryn> I'd assume some areas that aren't buggy are relatively stable...
20100316 05:10:01< Salwan> and I just noticed, nearly all tasks in EasyCoding and NotSoEasyCoding (in the wiki) are also features rather than bugs
20100316 05:11:11< Salwan> "Could always work on it and wait to merge it back in though" <-- I may do just that :)
20100316 05:11:12< Aethaeryn> Again, just because it can't be immediately accepted doesn't mean it won't eventually be.
20100316 05:11:29< Aethaeryn> We're closer to the end of the freeze than the beginning.
20100316 05:11:42-!- ancestral [~ancestral@97-116-117-82.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ancestral]
20100316 05:11:47< Aethaeryn> They always say "it is ready when it is ready" but we've had 7 or 8 betas so I'd safely bet we're past half-way
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20100316 05:15:05< Salwan> I'm considering getting into gsoc 2010, I've been adviced here to fix a few bugs and submit patches to gain commit access to the repository, so I guess I'll just stick to the bugs for now
20100316 05:16:01< Salwan> but well, you know how itchy new devs are like ;)
20100316 05:19:10< ancestral> Bed bugs and fleas will do that to you
20100316 05:22:44 * Salwan is itching
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20100316 06:05:24< Soliton> Salwan: all the feature requests in the tracker should be wanted to some degree. doesn't hurt to discuss them a bit before implementing though. and yeah going for bug fixes right now would be nicer.
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20100316 10:40:31< Ivanovic> moin
20100316 10:41:46< Ivanovic> esr: pong
20100316 10:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 74 bugs, 254 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100316 10:43:28< esr> I've been thinking hard about our version-control and hosting problems and what to do about them.  This has led me to unwelcome conclusions.
20100316 10:43:45< stikonas> what are they?
20100316 10:43:59< Rhonda> version control problems?
20100316 10:44:12< Rhonda> I am aware of hosting problems, but what's the issues with version control problems?
20100316 10:44:25< Ivanovic> Rhonda: there is no git support at gna.org
20100316 10:44:33< Ivanovic> that is the "problem"
20100316 10:44:35< Rhonda> So?
20100316 10:44:36< stikonas> Rhonda: branches are pain to work in SVN
20100316 10:44:51< Rhonda> stikonas: binary data are even more pain to work in git
20100316 10:45:22< esr> Rhonda: We've reached the point where Subversion's merge weaknesses are an issue. See mordante's fights with fendrin over new pathfinding and editor features for a consequence.
20100316 10:46:10< Rhonda> esr: Right, but git is unfortunately no solution that is better suited for a project like wesnoth with its tons of binary data.
20100316 10:46:28< esr> As the project grows, the pain from weak branching support will increase.
20100316 10:46:57< esr> Is there an DVCS that handles binary data better?  I'm not attached to git?
20100316 10:47:05< esr> s/?/./
20100316 10:47:10< Rhonda> Unfortunately I fear there isn't.
20100316 10:47:41< esr> Then it's not an issue.  If we're equally inconvenienced by any system we might move to.
20100316 10:48:20< Rhonda> Maybe submodules might work out, but they are even more pain to work with.
20100316 10:48:45< fendrin> Rhonda: What does git wrong when it comes to binary data? SVN isn't good at handling them either (okay, it has improved since CVS)
20100316 10:49:04< stikonas> fendrin: it just takes a lot of disk space
20100316 10:49:10< Rhonda> fendrin: It gets *slow*, hell of.
20100316 10:49:20< esr> Google searching suggests that git's binary data issues may be pasit it.
20100316 10:49:28< esr> s/pasit/past/
20100316 10:49:30< Rhonda> And thus loses one of the core points for switching to git in the first place.
20100316 10:49:54< esr> BUT THIS IS A SIDETRACK.  We have a larger issue.
20100316 10:50:24< Rhonda> Right, sorry to have distracted.
20100316 10:50:44< esr> The larger issue is that we are growing and Gna is stagnant.  It's in a maintainance-only, no-new-features mode.
20100316 10:51:02< Ivanovic> fendrin: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15631
20100316 10:51:06< esr> Ivanovic: You are aware of this, yes?
20100316 10:51:30< Ivanovic> esr: personally i think that wesnoth itself is *not* growing
20100316 10:51:39< Ivanovic> esr: the amount of developers is basically constant
20100316 10:51:50< Ivanovic> sure, the amount of (mainly binary!) data is growing
20100316 10:52:06< Ivanovic> but the development team is basically of constant size
20100316 10:53:05< Ivanovic> regarding gna: the existing stuff they have *is* good (that is the combination of version control systems with their webinterface)
20100316 10:53:09< esr> But I see a trend towards larger and more complex projects being undertaken - GUI2 and fendrin's editor changes are ecent examples.
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20100316 10:53:25< Ivanovic> the only matter is that they don't add new VCSs
20100316 10:53:54< esr> But that's a big one.
20100316 10:53:58< Ivanovic> and even for larger scale projects git-svn *is* a solution (when used correctly!)
20100316 10:54:25< Ivanovic> the problem with all version control systems is that when you branch you have to merge over "mainline changes" regulary to make merging at the end no big pain
20100316 10:54:32< esr> git-svn doesn't solve the branch-merge problem.
20100316 10:54:47< Ivanovic> the problem is mainly between display and chair!
20100316 10:54:54< Ivanovic> even with git you need to regulary sync!
20100316 10:55:10< fendrin> esr: Don't put my editor changes and gui2 in the same cauldron. I am just using the frameworks other people designed and implemented, it's only a task on the surface. GUI2 and Ilor's work on the editor are bigger things that concerned the inners of wesnoth.
20100316 10:55:13< Rhonda> esr: Is self-hosting through redmine or trac one of your thoughts? … left aside that we need to solve our server hosting issues, too.
20100316 10:55:56< Rhonda> And I still think that it might be a real issue that subdir checkouts don't work with any DVCS that I am aware of. But that might be just me.
20100316 10:56:00< esr> Yes, but it makes a difference how strong your merging tools are and I think we are reaching a point where the difference between SVN and DVCSes on that score is significant.
20100316 10:56:49< Ivanovic> esr: regarding merging: git-svn does use the git algorithms for merging
20100316 10:57:04< Ivanovic> so, ehm, in how far would merging with "pure" git be better?
20100316 10:57:10< Ivanovic> sorry that i don't get this point
20100316 10:57:40< esr> Ivanovic: How can it?  The server side doesn't have the info needed for history tracking?
20100316 10:57:57< stikonas> but binary data is no better in git-svn as it is in git
20100316 10:57:59< Ivanovic> ehm, you have all that info locally!
20100316 10:58:39< Ivanovic> git-svn does basically make a svn version a git version and does "just" commit in svn style later on
20100316 10:58:56< Rhonda> Ivanovic: I'm not completely sure if using the git merge handling works from within git-svn, to be honest. Never tried though.
20100316 10:59:04< fendrin> Ivanovic: That is my biggest concern. If I use git-svn I won't have a backup unitil the feature frezze is lifted and the developers have accepted my plan. 
20100316 10:59:26< Ivanovic> ehm, you do commit into the svn tree?
20100316 10:59:29< Ivanovic> there is the backup!
20100316 10:59:51< Ivanovic> Rhonda: from what i have seen it should support the git merging algorithms
20100316 10:59:59< fendrin> Ivanovic: Fine, so I do a git-svn checkout now and commit in ~15 min to svn trunk.
20100316 11:00:12< Ivanovic> fendrin: impossible because it takes ages to get the checkout
20100316 11:00:20< Ivanovic> yeah, git is slow!
20100316 11:00:22< fendrin> Ivanovic: No, it's there.
20100316 11:00:24< esr> Ivanovic: All that tells me is that you can squash commits, not that git-like merging logic actually appllies to divergent branches in the main repo.  I don't see how it can, and I'd take convincing that it does.
20100316 11:00:32< fendrin> I have downloaded it and it's uptodate.
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20100316 11:02:10< esr> Ivanovic: What' s your actual evidence that it does?
20100316 11:02:35< Ivanovic> the same evidence you have that it can't
20100316 11:02:43< Ivanovic> none at all, just asumptions from what we see
20100316 11:03:23< Ivanovic> in general i would just do things this way: http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html
20100316 11:03:38< Ivanovic> fendrin: and you could test if merging works by trying to merge trunk into your branch
20100316 11:03:59< zookeeper> Rhonda, "subdir checkouts don't work"? does that mean that if i want to work with a git checkout, i have to download the entire repo? O.o
20100316 11:04:02< Ivanovic> this way (if things *do* work) you could at least (as backup) create a patch for "all the new stuff"
20100316 11:04:11< Rhonda> zookeeper: Yes, absolutely.
20100316 11:04:16< zookeeper> Rhonda, wtf :x
20100316 11:04:35< Rhonda> There won't be any src/-only checkouts possible anymore with git.
20100316 11:04:38< zookeeper> but that's retarded
20100316 11:05:01< Rhonda> That's the way git is "designed".
20100316 11:05:16< esr> "Git supports merging between branches much better than Subversion"
20100316 11:05:40< esr> From the crash course Ivanovic gave the URL for.
20100316 11:05:45< fendrin> Ivanovic: I have asked for help how to merge different svn branches with git.
20100316 11:06:14< fendrin> But there hasn't been a useful answer. People told me to rtfm.
20100316 11:06:30< zookeeper> so what size is a git checkout of the wesnoth repo then?
20100316 11:07:04< fendrin> I haven't discovered how to bring git to do what I need and have a remote backup in svn that wouldn't be trunk in a feature frezze.
20100316 11:07:24< esr> zookeeper: Huge.  The only gain is that tags would become symbols rather thwan tree copies, so no tag dirs in the checkout.
20100316 11:07:41< stikonas> zookeeper: 1.0-1.6 GB
20100316 11:08:23< esr> Ivanovic: Listen to fendrin.  He is reporting the problems I'm talking about.  He is, as we say in English, where the rubber meets the road.
20100316 11:08:25< Crab__> fendrin: imo, it can work by merging between two local git branches, one of them based on 'trunk' and another on your 'feature' branch.
20100316 11:08:59< Crab__> fendrin: basically the same thing which was done when some fix from trunk is backported to 1.6
20100316 11:09:02< fendrin> Crab__: That is what I thought as well. 
20100316 11:09:20< Ivanovic> i have not used git myself so far
20100316 11:09:34< Ivanovic> from what i read in the net is that you have to tell git-svn about trunk and your branch
20100316 11:09:41< Ivanovic> and then got to merge those two
20100316 11:10:00< fendrin> Crab__: Can you talk me through the process?
20100316 11:11:19< fendrin> I have a trunk only checkout around. But it's size is 2.3GB
20100316 11:12:04< stikonas> I have just ran git gc and .git folder takes 1.3 GB 
20100316 11:12:55< fendrin> Okay, but why is it trunk only? Haven't we learned just a minute ago from Rhonda that parital cheockouts are a nogo with git?
20100316 11:13:26< stikonas> fendrin: because this is git-svn, not pure git
20100316 11:13:26< Crab__> fendrin: I'm at work atm, but I think that, in the evening, I can setup a dummy svn repository at my server, and test the procedure myself, then document it
20100316 11:14:10< fendrin> Crab__: Cool, I am helping to migrate a flat in some minutes. So I will be back in the evening then.
20100316 11:14:15< stikonas> fendrin: this is your own copy of repository, but my can be different, and we can't pull between ourselves
20100316 11:14:41< fendrin> stikonas: We can't pull? 
20100316 11:15:06< esr> Crab__: That's a good idea.  If it turns out we can get git history-sensitive merging to work in git-svn, that puts off the day of reckoning.
20100316 11:16:16< stikonas> fendrin: if you have only trunk, and I have everything, than I think that commits in our repositories has different hashes
20100316 11:16:27< esr> zookeeper: What substitutes for subdirectory checkout is that working with multiple repos is easier in DVCS.  We would for example, probably split out the resources branch.
20100316 11:17:31< stikonas> esr: maybe #git people can answer some of these questions?
20100316 11:18:09< esr> stikonas: Possibly...but fendrin reports not getting anywhere by asking.
20100316 11:18:14< Ivanovic> http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/Linux/kernel.org/software/scm/git/docs/git-svn.html
20100316 11:18:40< Ivanovic> regarding the "BASIC EXAMPLES" block you first need a git tree with trunk and at least the branch you want
20100316 11:19:08< Ivanovic> then later on you should use "git svn rebase" onto the branch you want to sync back
20100316 11:19:23< esr> Ivanovic: But look under CAVEATS.
20100316 11:19:43< Ivanovic> esr: yeah
20100316 11:19:54< Ivanovic> you should *not* use merge/pull but rebase
20100316 11:20:39< esr> Yes.  And rebase is...tricky.  Notoriously so un the case of a non-fast-forward merge. 
20100316 11:21:07< stikonas> esr: "git pull --rebase" works fine for me
20100316 11:21:30< Ivanovic> that is: the result of using merge/pull in a worst case is that all the changes from the branch end in a single commit
20100316 11:21:53< Ivanovic> so that the "tree" part, the single previous commits with their messages, does not appear again
20100316 11:22:07< Ivanovic> IMO not too much of a real problem when a real branch is used and commited to, right?
20100316 11:22:32< esr> The CAVEATS section actually documents some of the problems fendrin and I are worried about.  Look at where it recommends passing around patch sets. That tells you the branch support through this interface is desperately weak.
20100316 11:22:40< fendrin> So I will work on two different svn checkouts to merge branches that would not be able to be different checkouts with pure git but possible with git-svn.
20100316 11:22:56< Ivanovic> fendrin: huh?
20100316 11:22:58< fendrin> Something tells me that git-svn is black magic.
20100316 11:23:18< Ivanovic> 1) git (by design) clones complete trees
20100316 11:23:21< esr> Yes, it is.  And that in itself is a oroblem.
20100316 11:23:38< Ivanovic> they do assume that there are no huge amounts of data in git trees, that you just end with some megabyte anyway
20100316 11:24:02< Ivanovic> for wesnoth a case of "clone everything" is large since the complete version history is included which means several copies of the binary files
20100316 11:24:06< esr> It's another layer for things to go wrong in. git-svn is a very clever kluge, but it's a kluge. 
20100316 11:25:14< Ivanovic> 2) with git-svn you don't do seperate checkouts, you don't just "reuse" svn checkouts!
20100316 11:25:26< fendrin> So my git-svn checkout isn't a real git repository but some critter?
20100316 11:25:30< Ivanovic> instead you create on "local git repository" that you tell about trunk and the branches
20100316 11:26:29< Ivanovic> so as result you have one git tree, for this you can probably use the one provided on wesnoth.org in the hidden section
20100316 11:26:46< Rhonda> fendrin: Yes, if you don't have the branches.
20100316 11:27:31< fendrin> Ivanovic: So you propose to base everything on a single git-svn checkout?
20100316 11:27:49< fendrin> Ivanovic: That is a difference in what Crab__ planned there.
20100316 11:28:07< Rhonda> git is a good piece of tool. It is a perfect solution for many things. It though is *not* the emacs to VCSes (and even emacs has its shortcomings), there are areas where git is not a solution but a cause for troubles.
20100316 11:28:28< Ivanovic> fendrin: no, it is not
20100316 11:29:11< Ivanovic> fendrin: the way with git-svn (and git in general) is that you don't try to do stuff between two compeltely different git checkouts/trees like you would have atm
20100316 11:29:35< Rhonda> I'm really sceptical that switching to git would solve more troubles that it would bring.
20100316 11:29:51< Rhonda> Actually, with respect to translation work, I fear very much that we would lose contributors.
20100316 11:29:54< Ivanovic> Rhonda: at least speed would probably go down
20100316 11:30:14< stikonas> Rhonda: what is the problem with translations?
20100316 11:30:21< Rhonda> They don't want to check out (and update) the whole thing, they only care for the po subdirectory.
20100316 11:30:44< Rhonda> stikonas: The all-or-nothing approach of git.
20100316 11:31:11< Ivanovic> looking at our server the complete git tree (bz2 compressed!) has 1.8GB
20100316 11:31:16< stikonas> Rhonda: at least Chusslove and myself use git repositories for translations
20100316 11:31:31< Crab__> Rhonda: but then you can make a separate repository for translations, and pull stuff from it onto main wesnoth repository
20100316 11:31:45< Crab__> and push new strings back..
20100316 11:31:45< Rhonda> stikonas: … of the whole tree, or rather git-svn of the po subdirectory?
20100316 11:31:45< fendrin> Ivanovic: [11:08] <Crab__> fendrin: imo, it can work by merging between two local git branches, one of them based on 'trunk' and another on your 'feature' branch.
20100316 11:31:51< Ivanovic> since i assume that git itself is not compressed i'd guess that on the harddrive the checkout will be large
20100316 11:32:02< Smar> well, translation, data, stuff that benefits of being external repo, just should be...
20100316 11:32:13< stikonas> Rhonda: no, I'm talking about using git repository for manageing the translations
20100316 11:32:18< Smar> I’m not using translation from repo because it’s just PITA
20100316 11:32:25< stikonas> not about checking out the translations
20100316 11:32:27< Ivanovic> stikonas: sounds like this splitting would be a real PITA for me
20100316 11:32:48< Ivanovic> stikonas: how many repositories would i have to cross sync then to eventually get a release out of things?
20100316 11:32:53< Ivanovic> and how to do a pot-update?
20100316 11:32:56< Rhonda> Crab__: Erm, well, no, I think you misunderstand how git works, I doubt that the seperate directory will be able to carry only the translations.
20100316 11:32:58< esr> We should continue this discussion after Crab__ runs his test.
20100316 11:33:17< Rhonda> stikonas: I am talking about the same, let me repeat the question: What git repository?
20100316 11:33:19< stikonas> Ivanovic: that's why I suggest asking people on #git for the best solution
20100316 11:33:23< Smar> git has dependies and stuff
20100316 11:33:32< Ivanovic> the translations are directly connected to the game and the likes
20100316 11:33:48< Ivanovic> in general asking on #git how to best do some "branch merging" might be the way to go
20100316 11:34:00< Smar> like, you pull main repo and it pulls all its subrepositories
20100316 11:34:17< esr> It makes a major difference whether or not git-svn can give us git branch merging.  I don;t think it will, but discussion og how to cope can wait until we have data.
20100316 11:34:52< Rhonda> http://changelog.complete.org/archives/698-if-version-control-systems-were-airlines
20100316 11:35:03< Ivanovic> esr: what do you think of just asking in #git?
20100316 11:35:16< Ivanovic> they should know, right?
20100316 11:35:20< esr> Ivanovic: I predict the answer we will get is either "RTFM" or "git-svn is a kluge, stop using it".  Remember, fendrin tried this.
20100316 11:35:22< Ivanovic> speculations in here will *NOT* help!
20100316 11:35:42< Rhonda> Smar: Like said, working with submodules is a pain and not really encouraged by #git neither.
20100316 11:35:48< Ivanovic> asking for which docunmentation to read for git-svn will not hurt!
20100316 11:35:54< esr> Which is why Crab's test will give us important info.
20100316 11:35:55< Smar> Rhonda: sure, it’s just an option
20100316 11:36:06< Ivanovic> and saying "our repro provider does not offer anything beside svn" should cover things well enough
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20100316 11:37:05< esr> Ivanovic: The answer is likelty to be "you're screwed, then". Which is more or less my conclusion.
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20100316 11:37:34< Ivanovic> assuming the answer before asking those that know is, you know, not always the correct outcome...
20100316 11:37:35< Rhonda> esr: Actually, I'm sitting in #git since a while and RTFM answers are pretty low. It might have been that fendrin hit a bad day or such.
20100316 11:37:36< Ivanovic> ;)
20100316 11:38:05< esr> I have more to say about tghis but I will wait on Crab's test.
20100316 11:39:22< esr> If it comes out as I expect, I face an unpleasant choice that may involve me bailing out of Wesnoth development for a while in order to concentrate on another project that would increase our options.
20100316 11:39:57< stikonas> i.e. write a new VCS :)
20100316 11:40:15< stikonas> in 2 weeks
20100316 11:40:51< Rhonda> If you do that, please don't forget proper support for subdir checkouts.
20100316 11:41:39< Rhonda> There is also this thing of "shallow clones" that won't pull in the complete history (which might gain someone a fair bit) - but then, those have the shortcomming of not being able to commit to.  %-/
20100316 11:42:19< esr> stikonas: No, not a new VCS.
20100316 11:44:05< esr> I have another project aimed at making project migration between forges easier. I've been short-changing it since December. If I conclude that Wesnoth is going to have to move off Gna, the most usful thing I vasn be doing for Wesnoth is to make that tool work.
20100316 11:44:21< esr> s/vasn/can/
20100316 11:46:49< Rhonda> What are the actual merging troubles anyway? How regular and painful are those, or are we discussing hypothetically?
20100316 11:47:37< Rhonda> And don't get that question wrong - I'm well aware that svn merge is a pain to work with. That's why I usually work with "svn diff -c1234 | patch"
20100316 11:48:06< Rhonda> … and that workaround works extremely well to "merge" the changeset introduced in revision 1234.
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20100316 11:56:37< loonycyborg> Rhonda: What exactly is wrong with git-submodules?
20100316 11:57:06< stikonas> loonycyborg: I think that they do not update themselves
20100316 11:57:48< loonycyborg> Indeed they aren't automatically checked out like svn externals.
20100316 11:58:03< loonycyborg> Though I've no idea why they aren't :/
20100316 11:58:18< Rhonda> conceptual? :)
20100316 11:59:17< esr> WI first ran into "actual merging troubles" when fendrin asked me to nerge his pathgfinding branch because mainline had drifted an he couldn't do it.
20100316 12:00:15< esr> It was a huge pain.  Took me three solid datys of work and all my evil cunning.  I am not bragging when I say most of you could not have done it.
20100316 12:01:48< loonycyborg> esr: If we were using git you'd probably got tons of merge conflicts :P
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20100316 12:02:38< esr> Some.  This is exactly the sort of situation that hisatory-ware merging helps with.
20100316 12:02:44< stikonas> loonycyborg: with git if you are developing someting on a branch, you constantly merge master into your branch
20100316 12:03:23< stikonas> s/constantly/often/
20100316 12:03:32< loonycyborg> Unless you forget to..
20100316 12:03:35< Rhonda> stikonas: … only sometimes. Or rebase. Depends on how it's published.
20100316 12:04:16< esr> Then fendrin and mordante got into a scrap over the editor changes, which mordante rightly says was partly a social/governance issue but was aggravated by the painfulness of branching.
20100316 12:05:03< esr> I don't think this is just fendrin.  I think it's the future.
20100316 12:05:55< esr> fendrin happened to be the point guy on both, but the problem is larger and I think it will become recurrent.
20100316 12:07:52< Rhonda> Sounds like the thing that fendrin worked on was rather huge and over a bigger timespan. I don't see how this wouldn't call for issues in git too, but then that might be just me.
20100316 12:09:47< esr> Well of course it would.  But the strength of the tools actually matters, otherwise we might as well still be using CVS.
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20100316 12:14:09< AI0867> fendrin: git-svn fetch&&git branch editor fendrin_editor&&git checkout editor
20100316 12:14:24< Ivanovic> stikonas: yeah, and this constant merging *has* to be done manually!
20100316 12:14:27< AI0867> you can track multiple svn branches that way
20100316 12:14:44< Ivanovic> stikonas: if this is done with svn it does basically work, too
20100316 12:14:55< AI0867> though you have to rebase them on master rather than merge, as svn will only accept flattened version trees
20100316 12:17:07< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41619 /website/start/1.8/ (index.hu.html po/hu.po): updated Hungarian announcement translation
20100316 12:17:29< Ivanovic> in general you basically have to keep branches as much in sync with "mainline" as possible all the time
20100316 12:17:53< Ivanovic> and that has to be done manually (by invoking the commands and, if merge conflicts arrise, solving merge conflicts by hand)
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20100316 12:18:02< AI0867> Ivanovic: git checkout master&&git svn fetch&&git svn rebase&&git rebase editor master&&git checkout editor
20100316 12:18:21< Rhonda> AI0867: git svn fetch && git svn rebase && git checkout -b editor fendrin_editor  # more straight forward commands? :)
20100316 12:18:39< AI0867> check out trunk, fetch *all* new commits, rebase trunk, rebase the branch on trunk, check the branch back out
20100316 12:19:01< Ivanovic> result: branch again in sync with trunk
20100316 12:19:16< AI0867> Rhonda: fetch all commits (not just the current branch), rebase the current branch, create a local branch named editor based on the remote fendrin_editor branch
20100316 12:19:21< Ivanovic> so that you could even generate a "normal" patch between branches and trunk that should directly apply
20100316 12:19:50< Rhonda> AI0867: I just wanted to point out that git branch editor fendrin_editor&&git checkout editor can be done in one go. :)
20100316 12:20:03< AI0867> I could give rebasing the branch once a week a shot
20100316 12:20:16< Ivanovic> yes, that would IMO make sense
20100316 12:20:27< AI0867> Rhonda: right, I'm not always sure about the scope of remote branches
20100316 12:20:35< AI0867> you generally don't want to check those out remotely
20100316 12:20:51< AI0867> s/remotely/directly
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20100316 12:38:27< orfest> help
20100316 12:38:33< orfest> #join
20100316 12:38:34< esr> Ivanovic: Actually, in restrospect the AI crisis 18 months ago was a a symptom as well.  The guy who screwed up out AI should have been doing that work on a branch.  (There again, I ebnded up having to rescue the situation and it was a huge pain.)
20100316 12:42:28< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: re http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=415537#p415537, I think there was a version of Boost that rendered our network code unusable or something, rather recently. Maybe that guy's using a distribution that has that version
20100316 12:43:44< shadowmaster> well, not just network code, but anything that uses iostreams. Apparently it was Boost 1.41
20100316 12:44:08< shadowmaster> that by looking at trunk/RELEASE_NOTES@r40216 with help from git
20100316 12:44:43< shadowmaster> *boost iostreams
20100316 12:46:35< Ivanovic> ah, okay, the part i removed from the release notes shown in the announcement post since i thought "affected distributions might finally be patched"
20100316 12:46:37< AI0867> fendrin: 12:20 < AI0867> I could give rebasing the branch once a week a shot
20100316 12:47:25< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: well, I don't know much about Ubuntu and I'm not using Boost 1.41 from Sid (yet)
20100316 12:47:56< shadowmaster> most likely will keep tracking Squeeze unless some random idiot decides to change our DST policies again
20100316 12:50:54< Ivanovic> okay, updated my post
20100316 13:01:44< Ivanovic> any OSX users around to test this problem?
20100316 13:01:51< Ivanovic> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29163&start=0
20100316 13:04:12< Ivanovic> with 1.7.15 it does no longer happen on my linux system
20100316 13:04:25< Ivanovic> it *might* have to do with the other font used for mac, no idea though
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20100316 13:32:56< AI0867> Ivanovic: was ther ean issue with boost 1.40?
20100316 13:33:22< AI0867> because that's what lucid ships with
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20100316 13:48:47< Ivanovic> AI0867: no
20100316 13:48:55< Ivanovic> AI0867: but lucid seems to also have 1.41
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20100316 13:55:11< happygrue> Ivanovic: still a problem for me in 1.7.15 on OSX 
20100316 13:55:20< Ivanovic> happygrue: okay, good to know
20100316 14:01:58< zookeeper> is is ok to link random people to http://www.wesnoth.org/files/hidden/win/ or should that remain not-terribly-public for some reason?
20100316 14:02:01< zookeeper> ( http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29215 )
20100316 14:02:54 * Rhonda . o O ( zookeeper killed the server - non responding )
20100316 14:04:31< zookeeper> it's been responding slowly the whole day for me
20100316 14:04:31< Rhonda> The files in there aren't that terribly big, but network rates shouldn't get up from there too much for filesharing issues.
20100316 14:04:38< Ivanovic> zookeeper: since this is only the plain .exe file and not a complete installer it should be okay
20100316 14:05:29< Ivanovic> and the server, especially the forums, were already really slow yesterday
20100316 14:05:29< Rhonda> Something i/o consuming seems to be going on.
20100316 14:05:57< Rhonda> Unfortunately the hoster's kernel doesn't have i/o accounting built in to check closer what might be it.
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20100316 14:15:52< Rhonda> wesnothd-1.6 does take up a lot of memory …
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20100316 15:16:02< Ivanovic> Soliton, Rhonda: ain't it restarted regulary?
20100316 15:16:58< Rhonda> No clue, might well be it, I don't know how to start it though. :)
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20100316 15:29:25< shadowmaster> mytop? oooh, I learn something new every day
20100316 15:38:32< Ivanovic> Rhonda: it might make sense to even restart all wesnothd and campaignd
20100316 15:38:53< Ivanovic> since they are all using some considerate amounts of virtual memory
20100316 15:41:37< Rhonda> I fear it won't help much, I guess they'll hog up the memory as soon as they got restarted again.
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20100316 15:42:01< Ivanovic> we will see...
20100316 15:42:17< Rhonda> shadowmaster: And there is also apachetop and pgtop and iftop and iotop …
20100316 15:42:24< Ivanovic> that is: Rhonda what do you think would make most sense regarding "possible server upgrades" that dave asked about some weeks ago
20100316 15:43:21< Rhonda> I didn't follow that discussion, sorry. Do you have it noted down somewhere?
20100316 15:44:38< Ivanovic> hmm, IIRC it was here in IRC
20100316 15:44:56< Ivanovic> sirp proposed upgrades for ram/cpu and switching the OS to 64bit
20100316 15:45:06< Ivanovic> but i don't know exactly when that was
20100316 15:45:13< shadowmaster> ah, good, it doesn't involve me then *hides*
20100316 15:45:49< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: though there is something for you:
20100316 15:45:56< shadowmaster> argh
20100316 15:46:02< Ivanovic> i loged into the forums admin interface
20100316 15:46:09< Ivanovic> and it mentions some update of phpbb
20100316 15:46:14< shadowmaster> yes, I know!
20100316 15:47:00< shadowmaster> no, I don't feel like upgrading to phpBB 3.0.7 yet. I know that it's already fixed, but critical bugs such as the one that motivated a critical rerelease after that don't make me feel very confident on the upstream devs
20100316 15:47:47< shadowmaster> yes, I know crap happens and that it's happened in Wesnoth too (tsk tsk, Wesnoth 1.1.2a)
20100316 15:48:06< Ivanovic> okay
20100316 15:49:10< shadowmaster> that and I want to try their automatic upgrade thing in my laptop again to see how well it handles the mods we use plus our custom hacks
20100316 15:51:09< Ivanovic> Chusslove: i fear that the two new serbian variants are not complete
20100316 15:51:46< Ivanovic> the files seem to lack one string (probably the "Defeat:" string)
20100316 15:53:50 * shadowmaster . O o (noting that Wesnoth 1.7.13a should have existed)
20100316 15:55:03< Ivanovic> i was not bribed enough for such a release!
20100316 15:55:14< shadowmaster> if I knew beforehand about that bribe thing I'd have sent you that chocolate bar instead of eating it
20100316 15:55:56< shadowmaster> I guess I'll save one of those two I've got now in case of emergency
20100316 15:56:09< Ivanovic> :)
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20100316 16:42:34-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: string/feature freeze active! | 74 bugs, 255 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100316 17:33:02< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41620 /website/start/1.8/ (12 files in 2 dirs): updated Polish announcement translation
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20100316 18:10:47< orfest> help
20100316 18:14:03< loonycyborg> orfest: Huh?
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20100316 18:15:54< happygrue> loonycyborg: you sure told him off. :P
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20100316 18:20:04< loonycyborg> happygrue: He told me in a PM that he's just getting used to irc
20100316 18:20:17< happygrue> ah, I see.
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20100316 19:22:42< fendrin> The svn movie stikonas made is great. 
20100316 19:25:14< stikonas> fendrin: this is actually git movie :)
20100316 19:25:33< stikonas> or git-svn to be precise
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20100316 20:14:21< fendrin> Ivanovic, esr: Is there a printable wesnoth manual?
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20100316 20:23:09< Ivanovic> fendrin: manual.wesnoth.org
20100316 20:23:38< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Are you sure that it's printable? :P
20100316 20:23:55< Ivanovic> of course it is (depending on your webbrowser)
20100316 20:24:48< Aethaeryn> Is it printable in lynx? ;)
20100316 20:26:43< fendrin> Ivanovic: A user has compiled a pdf. It's an early stage but fits what I would call a proper manual. 
20100316 20:27:03< happygrue> fendrin: depending on what you want the redraft of the manual might better suit your need: http://wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25047
20100316 20:29:06< fendrin> happygrue: I will point the user to the forum post. Maybe he wants to become the docu maintainer.
20100316 20:29:21< happygrue> that would be great
20100316 20:30:53< happygrue> fendrin: if they are interested in keeping it updated but not able to commit for whatever reason I wouldn't mind doing the commits
20100316 20:31:22< fendrin> happygrue: It seems like rocket16 is able to use svn.
20100316 20:31:30< happygrue> excellent
20100316 20:32:23< happygrue> fendrin: double check with esr (writing forum guru), but Simons Mith has been in charge of the manual redraft.  I am not sure if he is interested in continuing to maintain it
20100316 20:32:36< happygrue> but that would be a good thing to check first.
20100316 20:50:11< fendrin> What is the set that contains "Lawful" and "Caotic" being called?
20100316 20:51:06< loonycyborg> Alignments?
20100316 20:51:29< fendrin> stikonas: Can you record another version of the git-svn movie? Slower and mid resolution?
20100316 20:52:09< stikonas> fendrin: maybe, but it takes a lot of time...
20100316 20:52:27< stikonas> fendrin: do you want mid resolution or mid quality
20100316 20:52:38< stikonas> because I used the same resolution in both movies
20100316 20:53:04< fendrin> mid quality is enough but slower. Some things just happen to fast.
20100316 20:56:12< stikonas> fendrin: it will probably take at least 2 days
20100316 20:56:20< fendrin> loonycyborg: What would an alignment that has it advantages in the switching phases, dusk and dawn be called?
20100316 20:56:33< fendrin> stikonas: 2 days 100% cpu time on several cores?
20100316 20:57:02< stikonas> gource is not multithreaded, though ffmpeg is
20100316 20:57:28< stikonas> maybe I can try reducing framerate
20100316 20:57:29< loonycyborg> fendrin: Vampirism :P
20100316 20:57:41< stikonas> default 60 is probably more than enough
20100316 20:59:00< stikonas> 30 fps should be enough :)
20100316 20:59:17< fendrin> loonycyborg: I was thinking at "Predator" since many predators prefer that times to hunt the deer.
20100316 20:59:25< loonycyborg> fendrin: Seriously I doubt that there's a word for that. Maybe ask esr.
20100316 21:01:19< esr> ?
20100316 21:01:29< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41621 /website/start/1.8/ (index.hu.html index.lt.html po/hu.po po/lt.po): updated Hungarian and Lithuanian announcement translation
20100316 21:02:03< fendrin> esr: Just a few lines above.
20100316 21:03:19< esr> You looking for a word for predators that prey on other predators by preference?
20100316 21:03:29< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41622 /trunk/ (27 files in 26 dirs): updated Lithuanian translation
20100316 21:04:06-!- Blarumyrran [~Blarumyrr@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100316 21:04:08< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41623 /trunk/RELEASE_NOTES: purge release notes after 1.7.15 aka 1.8rc1 is announced
20100316 21:04:19< loonycyborg> Man! That's how confusing using chaotic/lawful as TOD preference may get :P
20100316 21:04:49< loonycyborg> Maybe they should be called nocturnal /<whatever word for day preference> instead.
20100316 21:05:32< fendrin> esr: No, it's a word that fits as an allignement. Chaotic units are good at night, Lawfull ones are good at Day, xxxxxxx is good at dusk/dawn. Where xxxxxx is the searched word.
20100316 21:06:06< fendrin> My first thought was to call this allignement something predator related because most predators are active at dusk or dawn.
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20100316 21:09:25< ilor> fendrin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crepuscular ;)
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20100316 21:11:13< fendrin> ilor: Yeah, thats it.
20100316 21:11:41< fendrin> ilor: But do you think it fits in Chaotic/Lawful/Crepuscular?
20100316 21:11:51< ilor> fendrin: not in the slightest :)
20100316 21:12:01< fendrin> Hmmm
20100316 21:12:09< Gambit> Does Wesnoth support custom alignments?
20100316 21:12:28< ilor> Gambit: as far as I know not without patching the source
20100316 21:12:50 * fendrin sees his next project moving along.
20100316 21:13:22< Gambit> Alignment:TOD ought to be like Resistance:Damage types
20100316 21:13:34< ilor> fendrin: nethack-wise... you could use Unaligned, or Moloch :P
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20100316 21:14:15< fendrin> ilor: Isn't that just another word for "neutral" ?
20100316 21:14:33< ilor> fendrin: not in nethack
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20100316 21:15:06< stikonas> fendrin: it is also possible to add photos for commiters, I can also do that if you will provide me with them :)
20100316 21:15:33< stikonas> s/will provide/provide/
20100316 21:15:41< fendrin> stikonas: No that would be realy confusing.
20100316 21:16:48< fendrin> Chaotic/Lawful/Twillightlikies
20100316 21:18:18< Blarumyrran> Elves are molochs
20100316 21:18:37< fendrin> No Racism here!
20100316 21:19:00< Blarumyrran> It's not racism if it's against blond people :>
20100316 21:19:14< fendrin> hhmmmm
20100316 21:19:45< fendrin> Maybe I am not uptodate of the current version of racism.
20100316 21:20:28< Gambit> Female mage?
20100316 21:20:32< loonycyborg> fendrin: I wonder how you'd balance this, at which TOD 'Twillightlikies' will be weakest?
20100316 21:20:50< stikonas> Blarumyrran: Moloch is an evil god in nethack 
20100316 21:21:21< Gambit> Also dawn and dusk are very spread out. They won't have enough time to exploit their advantage.
20100316 21:22:05< fendrin> loonycyborg: I thought they are +33 on twillight but +0 at every other time of day. There stats would be weaker that that of other factions.
20100316 21:23:28< esr> Shdowsiders
20100316 21:23:33< ilor> how about "Mixed"
20100316 21:23:50< esr> Sorry, "Shadowsiders".  Neither of light nor darkness.
20100316 21:24:04< Blarumyrran> Shadows are dark though
20100316 21:24:11< esr> There's precedent: the Shadow Mages in Liberty.
20100316 21:24:18< ilor> they're a bit of everything so they work best when light and dark mix
20100316 21:24:40< esr> I'd give the Shadow Mages this alignment in a second.
20100316 21:25:06< esr> Now, shadows are areas of relative darkness cast by light.
20100316 21:25:26< stikonas> fendrin: can you look at this 9s sample: http://stikonas.homelinux.org/files/wesnoth.mp4
20100316 21:26:10< Blarumyrran> esr, and any darkness makes us note it as dark due to there being light somewhere else
20100316 21:27:00< fendrin> esr: so Chaotic, Lawfull and Shadowsiding?
20100316 21:27:13< fendrin> or shodowsided?
20100316 21:27:39< ilor> fendrin: BTW, wikipedia suggests that crepuscular behavior is actually an *anti-predator* adaptation ;)
20100316 21:28:07< fendrin> ilor: Uh, that surprises me.
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20100316 21:28:44< fendrin> stikonas: That is good, but can you make the first few month even more slow?
20100316 21:28:46< esr> Shadowside or Shadowsiders depending on context. "Shadowsiding" sounds odd to a native speaker, because "siding" is what you put on the outside of your house. :-)
20100316 21:29:07< zookeeper> fendrin, there's too much to read on #wesnoth...what is rocket16 doing? i remind you that he's a known troublemaker who's been muted and banned a couple of times, so...
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20100316 21:29:22< fendrin> esr: Well the context would be the other allignments, named "Chaotic" and "Lawful".
20100316 21:30:19< esr> Then probably just "Shadow".
20100316 21:30:25< fendrin> zookeeper: Oh, didn't know of that. He has send me a pdf he is working on. A printable manual of wesnoth. He merged it from the sources out of the forum and from the wiki. 
20100316 21:31:26< fendrin> esr: Is there already a hack for the Shadow Mages in Liberty?
20100316 21:31:43< zookeeper> fendrin, ok. if he does anything useful then that's fine, but i wouldn't advice anyone to spend much of their own time on him ;)
20100316 21:32:39< fendrin> zookeeper: Okay, let's see what he can come up with. I will watch him a little.
20100316 21:35:55< esr> fendrin: Not that I know of.
20100316 21:36:12< stikonas> fendrin: I can not vary speed, I can only change overall speed, so the movie will be longer
20100316 21:36:44< fendrin> stikonas: Okay, please make it three times longer than the first movie.
20100316 21:37:02< esr> zookeeper: rocket16 asked me for help on licensing.  I gave him some.  I hope this didn't contribute to a problem.
20100316 21:38:18< stikonas> fendrin: okay, I can do that, but where will you find the person who will watch this for 30 minutes :)
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20100316 21:42:51< fendrin> stikonas: I like to watch it.
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20100316 21:51:20< Aethaeryn> fendrin: I would love it if you patched it to allow custom alignments.
20100316 21:51:32< Aethaeryn> Though I have more in mind a superchaotic or superlawful.
20100316 21:51:46< Aethaeryn> Vampires would be superchaotic, basically chaotic's benefits/weaknesses doubled
20100316 21:53:09< fendrin> Aethaeryn: Nocturnal?
20100316 21:53:22< Aethaeryn> *that* could be appropriate usage of nocturnal and diurnal
20100316 21:53:44< Aethaeryn> but yeah, I would like to make campaign foes superchaotic
20100316 21:54:04< Aethaeryn> especially monsters in indoor/cave locations to be extra sadistic ;)
20100316 21:54:06< Blarumyrran> Only superceded by megachaotic units
20100316 21:54:12< fendrin> Aethaeryn: I see the vampire point.
20100316 21:54:21< Aethaeryn> no, megachaotics supercede kilochaotics.
20100316 21:54:34< Blarumyrran> kilo sounds silly, so super is a valid alternative
20100316 21:54:44< Aethaeryn> gigachaotics! :o
20100316 21:54:56< Gambit> terra
20100316 21:54:58< Aethaeryn> 100% at night, -100% at day
20100316 21:55:04< fendrin> überdünkel
20100316 21:55:59< fendrin> Überdark
20100316 21:56:13< Aethaeryn> über1337
20100316 21:56:36< Gambit> Or you could have enemies that "can only be seen" at night. It just makes them take 1000% less damage during the day even if you do find them through their "daystalk" ability.
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20100316 21:57:24< Aethaeryn> anyway, I do intend to have non-EoM-related vampires as campaign enemies in Thunderstone Pt. 3 (aka. a few years)
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20100316 21:57:31< Blarumyrran> 1000% less = they heal enemies by 9x their damage?
20100316 21:57:34< Aethaeryn> And superchaotic would be my #1 feature wishlist
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20100316 21:58:37< Blarumyrran> Do you spend more time on wishlists or on parts 1 and 2
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20100316 21:58:42< YogiHH> hello
20100316 21:58:50< fendrin> hi YogiHH
20100316 21:59:05< Ivanovic> hi YogiHH
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20100316 22:00:04< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: I'm on a semi-wesbreak right now, just happens to be my spring break this week
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20100316 22:00:11< Ivanovic> YogiHH: have you seen this bug report? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15598
20100316 22:00:19< Aethaeryn> it's easier to plan things afk than code them afk
20100316 22:03:07< Ivanovic> YogiHH: as well as this one: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15545
20100316 22:03:31< YogiHH> Ivanovic: I have seen it on the forums, yes. Did you try to reproduce it already? If that really is true for every save i wonder why we haven't found it long ago.
20100316 22:03:44< Ivanovic> stikonas: any news on the "broken sorting" bug? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15447
20100316 22:04:31< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Haven't seen the second one so far.
20100316 22:04:50< Ivanovic> YogiHH: the 2nd was confirmed by crab_, so it is at least reproducible
20100316 22:04:51< stikonas> Ivanovic: not yet, but this is low priority bug anyway :)
20100316 22:05:04< Ivanovic> and no, i have not seen the first one yet but i have not tried it myself either
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20100316 22:10:03< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41624 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Slovak translation
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20100316 22:31:06< happygrue> Ivanovic: are minor unit changes (hp, damage, xp) allowed at this time?  Or are we beyond that?
20100316 22:31:24< Ivanovic> we are by far beyond them
20100316 22:31:35< Ivanovic> since those changes to break compatibility
20100316 22:31:57< happygrue> ah, right
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20100316 22:38:19< fendrin> zookeeper: Can you imagine how wml code for costum allignements could work?
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20100316 22:54:57< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41625 /website/start/1.8/ (index.cs.html po/cs.po): updated Czech announcement
20100316 22:56:54< CIA-53> ivanovic * r41626 /trunk/ (8 files in 7 dirs): updated Czech translation
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20100316 22:57:05< Ivanovic> uhm, is there anyone beside me commiting today?
20100316 22:57:06< Ivanovic> ;)
20100316 22:57:56< Rhonda> Me not, me is just deleting worthable stuff today. :'(
20100316 22:58:29< Rhonda> valuable even
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20100316 23:00:43< happygrue> worthable is a perfectly worthable word
20100316 23:01:08< Rhonda> … says the grue
20100316 23:01:34< happygrue> hehe
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20100316 23:14:08< Ivanovic> fendrin: have you already had a look at the bugs that are assigned to you?
20100316 23:14:14< Ivanovic> there are currently several of those
20100316 23:14:31< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/bugs/?15631
20100316 23:14:36< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/bugs/?15631
20100316 23:14:41< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/bugs/?15393
20100316 23:14:47< Ivanovic> https://gna.org/bugs/?15392
20100316 23:17:11< fendrin> Ivanovic: I would like to get rid of https://gna.org/bugs/?15393
20100316 23:17:49< Ivanovic> uhm, okay, ehm, how?
20100316 23:17:49< zookeeper> fendrin, i guess you'd have a top-level [alignment] tag or something, and then refer to them from units in the same way as now.
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20100316 23:19:08< Aethaeryn> fendrin: make sure you can define specific %s so that it's possible to do something like superchaotic
20100316 23:19:22< Aethaeryn> Semi-customization is litle better than no customization
20100316 23:19:30< fendrin> Ivanovic: I will assign it to you or esr to find someone who can fix it?
20100316 23:19:40< Ivanovic> just assign it to "none"
20100316 23:19:58< Ivanovic> somehow i'd guess that maybe Crab_ could be the right one
20100316 23:20:45< fendrin> zookeeper: okay, and what would go into [time] ? That is the biggest question mark in my opinion.
20100316 23:21:16< fendrin> Ivanovic: Well, Crab_ is the right one for every bug that no mortal could find in a lifetime.
20100316 23:21:29< Ivanovic> fendrin: nah, not for everyone of hose
20100316 23:21:33< Ivanovic> s/hose/those
20100316 23:21:36< Ivanovic> some are for silene
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20100316 23:21:49< Ivanovic> ;)
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20100316 23:25:06< zookeeper> fendrin, ah, good question
20100316 23:25:09< zookeeper> let me think a bit
20100316 23:26:27< fendrin> zookeeper: Well, to be honest now you mention it, the [alignment] tag has his fields of questions as well.
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20100316 23:27:20< zookeeper> fendrin, ok, i think the best way would be to rework it so that times would no longer define the lawful bonus at all. they'd still define "lightness" so that the normal lawful and chaotic alignments could define their own bonuses for each "lightness" level.
20100316 23:28:51< zookeeper> so, basically: [time] just defines a "lightness", [alignment] defines what bonuses apply on each time or lightness
20100316 23:30:21< zookeeper> so chaotic would be something like [alignment] id=chaotic [effect] lightness=25 increase_damage=-25% [/effect] [effect] lightness=-25 increase_damage=25% [/effect] [/alignment]
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20100316 23:30:34< fendrin> zookeeper: and a unit is bound to one (or more?) of this [alignment]s?
20100316 23:34:08< fendrin> zookeeper: I prefer lightness to be a enumeration.
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20100316 23:34:42< zookeeper> fendrin, sure
20100316 23:35:28< zookeeper> maybe instead of lightness= you could allow arbitrarily named values
20100316 23:36:03< fendrin> ?
20100316 23:36:25< zookeeper> ...if someone wants to use another concept than lightness/darkness
20100316 23:37:12< fendrin> They can be set to a random value.
20100316 23:37:28< fendrin> It just has to match a definition in an [alignment]
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20100316 23:40:02< Crab_> fendrin: about bug 15393 - how/where it can be reproduced ?
20100316 23:40:30< fendrin> Crab_: The intro scenario of DM
20100316 23:40:36< fendrin> just start it
20100316 23:40:40< fendrin> it is story only
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20100316 23:41:39< zookeeper> fendrin, anyway, it'd be nice if one could use the regular [effect] tag for specifying what effects the alignment has
20100316 23:42:00< fendrin> zookeeper: Right, so it is not only a damage bonus/malus anymore.
20100316 23:42:05< zookeeper> yep
20100316 23:42:37< fendrin> zookeeper: Please specify the wml tags needed and send them to the mailing list. I will code the c++ part if you do the wml.
20100316 23:43:17< zookeeper> well, i'll see if i got time tomorrow to write some kind of a proposal for the tags
20100316 23:43:26< fendrin> cool
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20100316 23:49:22< CIA-53> crab * r41627 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/01_overture.cfg: fix bug #15393: fix a warning in DM1 which happened because of no valid route for movement of Delfador, which was caused by side2 being his enemies, not allies.
20100316 23:50:12< fendrin> Crab_: Umpf, so the whole bug is invalid?
20100316 23:50:54< Crab_> fendrin: well, it was valid, but very minor. DM1 has indeed done things in a subtly wrong way.
20100316 23:51:24< fendrin> Crab_: Do you think the code line I noted in the bug report is suspicious?
20100316 23:51:38< Crab_> fendrin: no
20100316 23:52:06< fendrin> :-(
20100316 23:53:07< Crab_> the purpose is "start at location 1 - move to location 2 - move to location 3 - ... - move to location N"
20100316 23:53:26< Crab_> fendrin: so, the first element should be handled differently, np with that.
20100316 23:55:13< fendrin> Crab_: I see. Thank you for the help :-)
20100316 23:55:58< Crab_> fendrin: glad to help. but that one was very easy.
20100316 23:56:11< ilor> night all
20100316 23:56:17< fendrin> ilor: bye
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20100316 23:59:16< fendrin> shadowmaster: I would like to give the desert elves a new alignment that gives them advantage in twillight.
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 17 00:00:10 2010