--- Log opened Fri Mar 19 00:00:03 2010
--- Day changed Fri Mar 19 2010
20100319 00:00:03< Azalit> So I'm brainstorming up some ideas for my template-centric WML editor idea; anybody have some common WML tasks that we could simplify with a template?
20100319 00:00:33< Sapient> the problem with statuses is that they usually involve changes to game rules which affects assumptions in the C++
20100319 00:01:08< Sapient> however, if you can find a way to code the status effects in WML, then all you need is the ability to put an icon
20100319 00:01:17< Sapient> that is all that is missing
20100319 00:01:55< Sapient> so I don't think when="start|end" will be a helpful approach
20100319 00:02:18< Sapient> you can't account for all the possible status ideas with that approach
20100319 00:02:43< Gambit> All current, and wanted statuses are effects that are applied each turn.
20100319 00:02:55< Gambit> Even stoned could be seen as merely reducing the unit's moves to 0 each turn.
20100319 00:03:29< Crab_> Gambit: no, stoned also makes the unit an invalid target for enemies...
20100319 00:03:39< Crab_> Gambit: and modifies zoc rules, as well
20100319 00:03:49< Gambit> Crab:_ then give us the ability to control those in the [effect] tag.
20100319 00:04:14< Sapient> now yer talkin
20100319 00:04:19< Sapient> ;)
20100319 00:06:36< Gambit> It will also require reworking abilities though. A ton of work. :(
20100319 00:07:25< Crab_> a ton of fun, yes
20100319 00:08:05< Gambit> Do [effect]'s get stored inside the units when applied?
20100319 00:08:11 * Gambit isn't familiar with save WML
20100319 00:08:56< Sapient> yes, they are in the modifications block
20100319 00:09:25< Sapient> and the modifications may affect the unit stats, which are saved
20100319 00:09:53< Gambit> So if you keep applying the same [effect] to a unit each turn, it keeps adding new chunks?
20100319 00:10:11< Gambit> This idea probably wouldn't work then as I was originally proposing.
20100319 00:10:22-!- loonycyborg_ [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:11:07< Sapient> zoc can already be changed using direct unit modification
20100319 00:11:19< Gambit> So instead of applying the [effect] each turn based on the status, could it be made to just keep looking up which statuses the unit has?
20100319 00:11:23< Sapient> i.e. variable manipulation
20100319 00:12:41< Gambit> poison would also require the [harm_unit] tag from FutureWML
20100319 00:13:06< Sapient> store/unstore
20100319 00:13:06< Sapient> but 'untargetability' is something specific to stone, I think
20100319 00:13:07< Sapient> maybe it should be abstracted out
20100319 00:13:36< Gambit> store/check for 0 or lower/unstore.
20100319 00:14:01< Sapient> that's an action, not an effect
20100319 00:14:19-!- loonycyborg [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100319 00:15:13< Gambit> Well I was just thinking that since [effect]s [might] keep getting stacked in the save file, that we might need all statuses to use direct modification.
20100319 00:15:17< Sapient> I guess we could have it fire a custom event "status $status_name" every turn for every unit afflicted with that status
20100319 00:15:57< Gambit> Of course then there is the problem of undoing the changes if you don't use [effect] :/
20100319 00:16:27< Sapient> I think it's kind of a poor use of time to make custom statuses easy to create because statuses are inherently difficult
20100319 00:17:10< Gambit> Then could we at least get filterable dummies?
20100319 00:17:48< Gambit> With names and icons.
20100319 00:18:22< Sapient> yeah, that is what is needed. just the minimum
20100319 00:18:31-!- shadowmaster [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20100319 00:18:37-!- shadowmaster [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:19:45-!- Aethaery1 [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:20:01-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20100319 00:20:06-!- Aethaery1 is now known as Aethaeryn
20100319 00:22:14-!- ilor [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100319 00:23:32-!- ettin_ [~jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:23:53-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100319 00:27:03-!- ettin [~jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100319 00:35:55-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20100319 00:37:50-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:38:54-!- shadowmaster [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 00:39:02-!- shadowmaster [~ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:41:24< AI0867> Gambit: the entire [ability], along with its [effect] subtags is stored in the [unit]'s [modifications] in the savefile
20100319 00:41:34< AI0867> it's not reapplied every turn
20100319 00:42:09< AI0867> if you could make a list of [effect]s you would like (or things you're not sure how to convert), I could take a look at them after 1.8 is released
20100319 00:43:16-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 00:45:00-!- mpavel [~Pavel@cpc1-dund3-0-0-cust363.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 00:50:11-!- ancestral [~ancestral@166.137.136.152] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 00:51:04-!- Sapient [~patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 00:59:39-!- zohar [~zohar@129.10.230.179] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 01:00:17< zohar> Hello, #wesnoth-dev!
20100319 01:04:43-!- bircht [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 01:06:40-!- cmetz [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20100319 01:11:51-!- bircht [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20100319 01:16:57-!- cmetz [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 01:18:25-!- ancestral [~ancestral@166.137.136.152] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi]
20100319 01:21:08-!- cmetz [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100319 01:33:45-!- cmetz [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 01:38:38-!- zohar [~zohar@129.10.230.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 01:39:41-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-124-191-176-143.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 01:40:21-!- cmetz [~bgates@S010600259c6b8bd3.wp.shawcable.net] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 01:51:44< Azalit> so I just solidified my idea about the graphical WML editor and posted it under the ideas section, if you guys are interested. http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29239
20100319 01:52:39< Azalit> it's still very much in alpha-thought form, at the moment, of course, but I think it's plausible...you tell me if it's practical =P
20100319 01:54:40-!- ancestral [~ancestral@97-116-119-89.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 02:04:45-!- loonycyborg_ [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]
20100319 02:11:16-!- DesertPanther_ [~Khalid@41.234.233.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 02:30:32-!- apoi [~andi@85-126-180-242.volume.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20100319 02:30:52-!- apoi [~andi@85-126-180-242.volume.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 02:41:10-!- LetterRip [~LetterRip@blender/coder/letterrip] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 02:43:38< LetterRip> out of curiosity have you guys every considered trading programming of features for art? Both the GIMP and Blender have huge skilled artists communitys - perhaps a trade of programming a feature for animation and artwork could be done 
20100319 02:45:38< General_Fou_Fou> LetterRip: are you talking about for a GSoC project?  Because in the rules I'm pretty sure they stated that the majority of the work had to be programing in general
20100319 02:45:58< LetterRip> no not for GSoC
20100319 02:46:05< Espreon> If one wants to do art, then he should look into the Summer of Art program, assuming we still do it.
20100319 02:46:20-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 02:46:36-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 02:47:04< General_Fou_Fou> I still think the Sprite idea listed looks fun
20100319 02:47:09< General_Fou_Fou> sort of a combination of the two
20100319 02:48:00< General_Fou_Fou> although not entirely, since it's more from the programing side of things
20100319 02:51:54< Espreon> ... and of course we would love to have an élite group of artists help us, but we do not have a giant platinum reserve...
20100319 02:53:06-!- KoFish [~kofish@c83-254-66-189.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20100319 02:57:11< fendrin> esr: around?
20100319 02:57:46< esr> fendrin: Yes, I was just looking at the Gryphon Mountain bug.  What's up?
20100319 02:58:17< fendrin> I need some names for unit types again.
20100319 02:58:58< fendrin> The desert shaman will splitt into three different pathes. 
20100319 02:59:56< fendrin> One doing fire damage and being lawful, one doing cold damage and being chaotic and one staying neutral.
20100319 03:00:58< esr> L1's the same in all three lines?
20100319 03:01:21< fendrin> My idea was something like shaman/daughter of the moon/Moonsylph or Moonshyde and shaman/dauthter of the suns/Starshyde or Starsylph
20100319 03:01:31< fendrin> yes L1 is for all the same.
20100319 03:01:47-!- Desciero [~chatzilla@cpe-069-132-139-120.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 03:02:28 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100319 03:02:32< esr> That's fine, except change the L2 to "moon-singer" and "sun-singer" respectively.
20100319 03:03:03-!- Desciero [~chatzilla@cpe-069-132-139-120.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100308142847]]
20100319 03:03:10< esr> Espreon: What's your issue?
20100319 03:04:38< Espreon> Nothing...
20100319 03:05:28< esr> And your probably want to stay away from "Starsylph" because it collides with Desert Star.  Hm, do you intend for the sun and moon lines to have L4s?
20100319 03:06:53< fendrin> Maybe better not.
20100319 03:09:55< fendrin> Desert star will be no longer around.
20100319 03:09:58< LetterRip> Espreon no platinum reserve needed - was thinking you might try bartering though :)
20100319 03:10:10 * Espreon LOLs.
20100319 03:10:23< esr> I think you should probably go with "Sunsylph", because "Sunshyde" sounds enough like English "sunshade" that players will giggle and ask "Where's the awning?"
20100319 03:10:54< Espreon> Or we could just make the names moar unique...
20100319 03:12:30< fendrin> And leave the whole shaman term.
20100319 03:13:13< fendrin> but druid is already given away.
20100319 03:16:49-!- LetterRip [~LetterRip@blender/coder/letterrip] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 03:27:46< fendrin> Adept
20100319 03:28:30-!- jekintrivedi [~root@116.72.242.56] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 03:28:42< CIA-53> esr * r41637 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/maps/10_Gryphon_Mountain.map: 
20100319 03:28:42< CIA-53> Give Gryphon Mother's location tthe invisible keep overlay. Fixes bug
20100319 03:28:42< CIA-53> #15646: HttT Gryphon Mountain: Mother Gryphon now migrates northwards.
20100319 03:29:34< esr> wesbot: topic
20100319 03:29:37-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 68 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100319 03:39:21-!- jekintrivedi [~root@116.72.242.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100319 03:41:29< esr> fendrin: In English, "Adept" has connotations of a mage-like or wizard-like kind, rather than shamanic.
20100319 03:41:58< fendrin> Right, and there is already the dark adept.
20100319 03:42:17< esr> The correspponding word for a more theurgic mage would be "Initiate".
20100319 03:42:58< fendrin> Those elves go back the elemental path, it's their way to master the extrem climatic envirenment.
20100319 03:43:01< esr> Although in this case I might consider using "Singer" or "Evoker".
20100319 03:48:39< fendrin> esr: A frankenstein concept for the fighter's weapon: http://imagebin.org/89428
20100319 03:50:30-!- jekintrivedi [~jekin@116.72.242.56] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 03:50:40< fendrin> I need a proper name for it as well.
20100319 03:56:29< fendrin> I want to call them Sandwitch
20100319 03:57:08 * Espreon giggles
20100319 03:57:50< fendrin> sibyl
20100319 03:59:14< esr> Nice weapon.
20100319 03:59:40< esr> And Sybil would indeed be a good type name.
20100319 04:00:04< fendrin> But singer is no longer a good advancement for it.
20100319 04:00:36< fendrin> The weapon can be used like a sword and makes blade damage or like a spear and makes piercing damage, both melee
20100319 04:00:38-!- qemqemqem [~quassel@urwireless-dhcp-128-151-27-139.wireless.rochester.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20100319 04:01:21< esr> Right.
20100319 04:01:31< esr> I rather guessed that.
20100319 04:02:04< fendrin> http://imagebin.org/89431 The lvl one version.
20100319 04:05:34-!- Espreon_ [~espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 04:05:51-!- Espreon_ [~espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 04:05:51-!- Espreon_ [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 04:08:25-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100319 04:08:31-!- Espreon_ is now known as Espreon
20100319 04:21:00-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db2fdd4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 04:22:11-!- rugue [~manuel@205.211.231.65] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 04:24:15-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100319 04:24:58-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20100319 04:26:58< rugue> hello
20100319 04:27:02-!- Corsix [~corsix@88-108-20-60.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit []
20100319 04:28:50< rugue> I saw your SoC ideas and was interested on working with you
20100319 04:33:51-!- rugue [~manuel@205.211.231.65] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20100319 04:34:08-!- rugue [~manuel@205.211.231.65] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 04:37:46< fendrin> What is a female Evoker? Evoketress?
20100319 04:39:45-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100319 04:46:03-!- gabm [~gabm@70.35.167.17] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 04:46:08-!- gabm [~gabm@70.35.167.17] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 04:46:14< esr> fendrin: Evoker could be used for either gender.
20100319 04:47:46-!- rugue [~manuel@205.211.231.65] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20100319 04:48:15< esr> fendrin: Your single-handed clide looks a lot like a historical Thraciamn weapon called a rhompaia
20100319 04:49:14< esr> In midern Greek rhompaia = greatsword, but the archaic Thracian version was a short-hafted plearm with a heavy curved blade.
20100319 04:50:11< esr> It delivered overhand blows so powerful that the Romans actually modified their helmet designs to cope.
20100319 04:50:35< esr> s/plearm/polearm/
20100319 04:51:30-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit [Quit: WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!]
20100319 04:53:59< fendrin> esr: Can the Two sided version be caled "Twinrhompaia"?
20100319 04:54:29< jekintrivedi> humm sounds cool
20100319 04:54:48< esr> Actually, correct Greek might be Diromphaia. 
20100319 04:55:39< esr> But it would be more in line with Wesnoth convention to Anglosaxonize it and call it a "twinblade".
20100319 04:56:11< Azalit> but Diromphaia sounds so much cooler!
20100319 04:56:31< esr> The troubble is it's obviously Earth-historical.
20100319 04:56:34< Azalit> dirhompaia, too...
20100319 04:56:35< fendrin> I don't like it to call it twinblade. The piercing damage is the better one, the blade damage is only a backup.
20100319 04:57:09< fendrin> twinblade suggests it to be a better sword than a spear. 
20100319 04:57:13< esr> Then just call it a spearblade.
20100319 04:57:45< fendrin> And Twinspearblade?
20100319 04:58:06< esr> Nah, too cumbersome.
20100319 04:58:18< jekintrivedi> well dirhompaia sounds like something new , & twinblade is a standard name we use it when we can find anything else 
20100319 04:59:42< fendrin> Then spearblade and Twinspear?
20100319 05:00:06-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 05:00:17< Espreon> Protip: use Anglish.
20100319 05:00:31< Espreon> So... dig deep...
20100319 05:00:46< Espreon> ... into the pool of possibilities... yeahz...
20100319 05:01:21< jekintrivedi> k
20100319 05:02:47< esr> Espreon: Both those words are Anglish.
20100319 05:02:56< Espreon> I know.
20100319 05:03:12< Espreon> But, try stuff from the dead section.
20100319 05:03:48< esr> fendrin: Anglish = English with Latin-derved words omitted.  I tend to write Wesnothian dialogue in a sort of non-strict Anglish.
20100319 05:04:32< Espreon> Anglish = the best thing ever since... Old English before the Norman Conquest.
20100319 05:05:06< esr> It's a technique I acquired from Tolkien, he had the same tendency.  Used it to get distance from modern English.
20100319 05:06:42< esr> fendrin: Most brilliant piece of Anglish *ever*:  Uncleftish Beholding" - http://groups.google.com/group/alt.language.artificial/msg/69250bac6c7cbaff
20100319 05:06:56< Espreon> esr: Force the "evolution" of "secg"... IDK... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/secg#Etymology_2
20100319 05:07:10< esr> I would be interested to know what a non-native speaaker makes of that.
20100319 05:07:25< Espreon> But, it isn't completely pure.
20100319 05:07:46< Espreon> ... sadly...
20100319 05:08:25< esr> Espreon cares more about purity of Anglic than I do.
20100319 05:10:41< Espreon> "Words derived from Old French?
20100319 05:10:46< Espreon> In _my_ Anglish pieces?"
20100319 05:11:24< Aethaeryn> Old French is just badly pronounced, provincial Vulgar Latin.
20100319 05:11:56< esr> True.
20100319 05:12:02< Espreon> Wrong, it is *horribly* pronounced, provincial Vulgar Latin.
20100319 05:12:06< fendrin> Uh, hard to read.
20100319 05:12:12< esr> Correction accepted.
20100319 05:12:18 * Espreon smiles
20100319 05:12:54< esr> fendrin: In truth, it's a little rocky for native speakers too.
20100319 05:13:01< Espreon> Unfortunately...
20100319 05:13:08< Aethaeryn> Without France, though, there would be some things missing... such as the 1815-1914 general European peace after Napoleon lost...
20100319 05:13:12< Aethaeryn> and gna
20100319 05:13:15< fendrin> So, is fighter still a good name for the unit with the spearblade?
20100319 05:13:16< esr> Other than freaks like me and Espreon, anyway,
20100319 05:13:27 * Espreon laughs
20100319 05:13:41< esr> fendrin: I think "Fighter" is still fine.
20100319 05:13:55-!- Zarel [Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 05:14:47< fendrin> Okay, so one advancement takes that Twinspear and the other one stays at spearblade but is given a additional shield.
20100319 05:22:43-!- Azalit [~quassel@c-24-20-244-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 05:23:24-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: http://www.google.com/phone]
20100319 05:24:19< esr> fendrin: Reasonable.
20100319 05:26:02< fendrin> Espreon just suggested twinsedge for the twinspear.
20100319 05:26:20< fendrin> spearedge
20100319 05:26:30< fendrin> could be the singlesided version
20100319 05:26:59< fendrin> The unit holding the twinsedge is a Twinfighter
20100319 05:29:46< esr> Actually I'd assimiliate the s - "twinedge".  It's not phonetically stable in that position, anyway.
20100319 05:32:03< fendrin> And the weapon special is called Twinstrike.
20100319 05:32:25< esr> fendrin: twin, er, win!
20100319 05:33:05< fendrin> For every miss of the attacked unit the Twinfighter gets the chance to hit another sourrounding enemy unit.
20100319 05:34:12< esr> Nice.
20100319 05:34:32< fendrin> The engine is far away from being able to do that...
20100319 05:35:47< fendrin> And the Twinfighter enhances to Twinmaster
20100319 05:39:09< esr> I'm off to sleep.
20100319 05:39:43-!- Mythological [Mythologic@77.28.127.80] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 05:40:12< Espreon> Hello Mythological.
20100319 05:40:39-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Quit: crimson_penguin]
20100319 05:40:42-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:00:53-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:13:47-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has quit [Quit: WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!]
20100319 06:14:58-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-67-19.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:24:49-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100319 06:35:52-!- gabm [~gabm@64.235.202.160] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:37:55-!- ancestral [~ancestral@97-116-119-89.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 06:38:15-!- qemqemqem [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:38:15-!- qemqemqem [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 06:42:39-!- qemqemqem_ [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:47:47-!- ilor [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:51:55-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 06:53:08< CIA-53> silene * r41638 /trunk/src/ai/composite/value_translator.hpp: Fixed random values being returned in case of error. Removed useless dependencies. Simplified and sped up the code.
20100319 06:55:00-!- jekintrivedi [~jekin@116.72.242.56] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 06:57:05-!- ilor [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3472, sources date: 20090703, built on: 2009/09/02 21:14:09 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/]
20100319 07:01:24-!- gabm [~gabm@64.235.202.160] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 07:07:29-!- jekintrivedi [~root@116.72.242.56] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 07:24:04-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100319 07:24:51-!- jarsen [~jarsen@76.8.207.17] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 07:44:05-!- jarsen [~jarsen@76.8.207.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20100319 08:32:06-!- zookeeper [~l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 08:49:54< zookeeper> sapient, gambit: the wiki says "[status] the status of the unit. This affects different features of the unit, for example whether the unit loses health each turn. Default for all keys is 'off', but this can be changed by the scenario or by special abilities (see AbilitiesWML). The status of a unit is displayed on the Status Table; each status modification statusmod is represented by the image misc/statusmod.png."
20100319 08:50:15< zookeeper> it doesn't actually seem to be working, but still.
20100319 08:51:27< zookeeper> i'm not sure if that means intended support for arbitrary status effects, or just the hardcoded slowed, poisoned and stoned.
20100319 09:35:38-!- qemqemqem_ [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100319 09:56:30-!- stikonas [~and@2002:4f84:b38b:b:226:9eff:fe0a:3e55] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 09:56:30-!- stikonas [~and@2002:4f84:b38b:b:226:9eff:fe0a:3e55] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 09:56:30-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 09:57:29-!- mpavel [~Pavel@cpc1-dund3-0-0-cust363.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 09:58:04< stikonas> hi
20100319 09:58:39< stikonas> Ivanovic: I think that I found an untranslatable string in src/menu_events.cpp:2059
20100319 10:00:04-!- YogiHH [~c3f5f304@gateway/web/freenode/x-eujjrrynszlmdutc] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 10:00:19-!- YogiHH [~c3f5f304@gateway/web/freenode/x-eujjrrynszlmdutc] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 10:00:19-!- YogiHH [~c3f5f304@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 10:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100319 10:09:45-!- Tigge [~tigge@bacchus.olf.sgsnet.se] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20100319 10:10:06-!- Tigge [~tigge@c-e8a272d5.015-28-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 10:28:11-!- Blueblaze [~nick@adsl-99-158-47-51.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 10:33:20-!- jekintrivedi [~root@116.72.242.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 10:43:57-!- jekintrivedi [~root@116.72.242.56] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 10:47:16-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 10:50:06-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-67-19.telecom.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 10:52:22< zookeeper> Ivanovic, i was thinking of maybe wiring in the AI controller to a bunch of campaign scenarios if it looks like it indeed works well now. there's a suitable string in LoW (_ "In this scenario, you may change the behavior of an allied side's AI using a context menu brought up by clicking on the allied side's leader.") i could use in the objectives box in those scenarios without needing to introduce new strings.
20100319 10:52:57< zookeeper> there's some tool for moving/copying strings from one textdomain to another, right?
20100319 10:53:06< zookeeper> s/strings/translations
20100319 10:57:56-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@dtmd-4db2fdd4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 10:57:56-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 10:59:17< Ivanovic> moin
20100319 10:59:40< stikonas> Ivanovic:hi,  I think that I found an untranslatable string in src/menu_events.cpp:2059
20100319 11:00:13< Ivanovic> stikonas: what is the string?
20100319 11:00:25< stikonas> "Usage: "
20100319 11:00:40< Ivanovic> zookeeper: we got a tool for it but it is not 100% reliable and i don't want to use it this close to 1.8 final
20100319 11:00:41< stikonas> it is shown in lobby when you type /help some_command
20100319 11:03:04< Ivanovic> stikonas: looking at that code i have the impression that basically all of it is untranslateable
20100319 11:03:05< zookeeper> Ivanovic, ok, i'll leave it for post-1.8
20100319 11:03:12< Ivanovic> stikonas: just look some lines above
20100319 11:03:23< Ivanovic> print("help", "Type " + cmd_prefix_ + "help <command> for more info.");
20100319 11:03:34< Ivanovic> no marker for gettext either
20100319 11:03:44< stikonas> Ivanovic: :(
20100319 11:03:52< Ivanovic> stikonas: i'd say we should wait till post 1.8 and check if this stuff can be marked translateable
20100319 11:03:53< stikonas> what can we do so close to 1.8
20100319 11:03:59< stikonas> ok
20100319 11:04:05< Ivanovic> might be that there is a reason for this one not being translateable
20100319 11:04:24< Ivanovic> but please write a bug report so that it is not forgotten
20100319 11:18:54-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20100319 11:19:29< Ivanovic> General_Fou_Fou: the sprite sheet idea is basically a way to provide artists with the infrastructure for sprite sheets
20100319 11:19:51< Ivanovic> that is: nicely working sprite sheets that help us save memory on the hardware
20100319 11:20:05< General_Fou_Fou> yeah, I've actually been working on doing something similar with javascript
20100319 11:20:16< General_Fou_Fou> it was a project I started doing in my spare time for fun
20100319 11:20:21< Ivanovic> the task basically does include getting in contact with the artists to make it "easy to use" for them, too
20100319 11:20:47< Ivanovic> that is you probably should communicate with Jetrel, too (eg via the forums, that is where most art people do meet)
20100319 11:21:01< General_Fou_Fou> ok, thank you Ivanovic
20100319 11:22:08< Ivanovic> that is sometimes he is online in irc but normally not around in here since it keeps him occupied too much (and thus stops him from doing "real work")
20100319 11:22:47< General_Fou_Fou> makes sense
20100319 11:27:56< General_Fou_Fou> I'll be sure to check out the artist forums
20100319 11:28:58< Ivanovic> though if you have questions regarding what is currently possible with sprite sheets (a very hackish approach!) you should talk to shadowmaster
20100319 11:29:12< Ivanovic> though he is most likely asleep at the moment...
20100319 11:29:25< General_Fou_Fou> mm, I should be asleep
20100319 11:29:55< Ivanovic> in general you should also talk to boucman since he is our expert for animations and eventually you would have to find a good way to get the syntax for animations out of spritesheets work nicely
20100319 11:30:08< General_Fou_Fou> I have done some simple sprite sheeting hacking - I'm a big fan of the old school super nintendo style of gameplay, so I like playing around with tilesets
20100319 11:30:08< Ivanovic> basically it is a project where you have to get in contact with several areas
20100319 11:30:17< General_Fou_Fou> will do
20100319 11:30:21< Ivanovic> great
20100319 11:30:40< Ivanovic> and yeah, there are many great snes games out there
20100319 11:30:47 * Ivanovic still loves secret of mana
20100319 11:30:54< General_Fou_Fou> thats one of my favorite
20100319 11:31:08< General_Fou_Fou> I also like the Final Fantasy 6/3 (depending where in the world you are)
20100319 11:32:02< General_Fou_Fou> although I love the graphics in Secret of Mana 3
20100319 11:32:22< Ivanovic> yeah
20100319 11:32:47< Ivanovic> there are really many lovely games on the good old snes, eg the donkey kong country series
20100319 11:32:55< Smar> General_Fou_Fou: it is 6, only US idiots call it 3, since it is only country where it is versioned so(and later rereleased as 6 iirc) 
20100319 11:33:05 * Ivanovic looks forward to finally getting his pandora
20100319 11:33:15< General_Fou_Fou> yeah, well I'm in the US, so I got used to it being called 3
20100319 11:33:15< Smar> snes is somehow too successful console
20100319 11:33:21< Ivanovic> playing wesnoth and snes/snes/gameboy/... games on a lovely handheld...
20100319 11:33:50< Smar> let’s port wesnoth to snes ;) 
20100319 11:34:07< Ivanovic> and yeah, then i will probably get FF7 out again and play it on the handheld, too
20100319 11:35:24-!- mpavel [~Pavel@cpc1-dund3-0-0-cust363.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 11:36:34< General_Fou_Fou> I think snes is probably a great console because developers found a way to work with the system they had, and were really creative about doing it.  I mean, I love games of today (personally a big fan of the Bioware games), but there are a games that tend to rest too much of special effects and whatnot, instead of creating a good game
20100319 11:38:25-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 11:39:16< stikonas> Ivanovic: submitted https://gna.org/bugs/?15653
20100319 11:39:21< Ivanovic> General_Fou_Fou: exactly
20100319 11:39:41< Smar> I mainly play indie games anyway :)
20100319 11:48:53-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20100319 11:56:05-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 11:56:05-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 11:56:05-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 11:57:20-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 11:57:21-!- meric [~Eric@124-168-169-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 11:57:35-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 11:57:35-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 11:57:35-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:02:17-!- loonybot [~loonybot@ppp79-139-136-187.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:02:17-!- loonybot [~loonybot@ppp79-139-136-187.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 12:02:17-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:03:06-!- loonycyborg [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:11:45< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: at that time I was about to take the subway, rather than asleep
20100319 12:16:36< shadowmaster> okay, I made some progress on discovering why phpBB stopped working
20100319 12:17:35< shadowmaster> http://shadowm.rewound.net/broken-page.png
20100319 12:18:23< shadowmaster> that is to say, not much progress :/
20100319 12:18:32-!- yuvrajtomar [~Administr@59.94.98.216] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:20:01< shadowmaster> I'm guessing that this version of Apache or the PHP component is trying to insert those warnings at the start of the gzip stream, without actually filtering it correctly so I get plain text data at the start of the stream
20100319 12:21:03< shadowmaster> as for the warnings, um.
20100319 12:23:42< Ivanovic> okay, updated the frontpage adding that we are accepted in summer of code 2010
20100319 12:24:37-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:25:07-!- migge_ [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:25:27-!- freim_ [~hogne@feathers.os-tr.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 12:26:11< Crab__> Ivanovic: 'We have been accepted into Summer of Code 2009' ?
20100319 12:26:34< shadowmaster> oh, nice!
20100319 12:26:54< Ivanovic> Crab__: where?
20100319 12:27:04< Ivanovic> only in the old news!
20100319 12:27:06< Ivanovic> ;)
20100319 12:29:43-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: freim, migge
20100319 12:33:38< Ivanovic> Crab__: could you note down (so that at least one of us remembers) to make sure that the link at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas that points to the submission is correct?
20100319 12:33:50< Ivanovic> atm the link does not exist because submission of proposals is not open yet
20100319 12:34:01< Ivanovic> talking about this paragraph:
20100319 12:34:04< Ivanovic> "    *  Once you have everything done here and think your idea is okay, go to page at google to submit your application. You have to submit it before April 9th at 19:00 UTC (12:00 noon PDT) or you have no chance to get in! "
20100319 12:34:15< Crab__> ok
20100319 12:39:47< Ivanovic> Crab__: you wrote the wiki template to generate the short list of proposals at the ideas page, right?
20100319 12:39:53< Ivanovic> where the first paragraph is shown
20100319 12:40:17< Ivanovic> would it be possible to have one "short list" that is just "name + title" and this more verbose one?
20100319 12:40:45< Ivanovic> the short list does help me as admin looking over which ones were submitted and maybe pinging students that are here to remind them not to forget submission of their proposals to google
20100319 12:41:21< zookeeper> updates to MP maps are still ok, right?
20100319 12:41:37< Ivanovic> pure map changes: sure
20100319 12:42:20-!- yuvrajtomar [~Administr@59.94.98.216] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 12:42:48< zookeeper> all right
20100319 12:42:49< Ivanovic> since those should not break compatibility between different versions
20100319 12:43:59< Ivanovic> hmm, how is the ingame version check stuff for mp compatibility done?
20100319 12:44:19< Ivanovic> that is: we should most likely make the mp server we ship in the 1.8 tarball be compatible with 1.8*
20100319 12:44:25< Ivanovic> Soliton: do you know this off hand?
20100319 12:44:32< Crab__> Ivanovic: ok. note that you already have the short list at the start of the page
20100319 12:45:00< Ivanovic> Soliton: as in "how to modify 'accepted_versions' without requiring a .cfg file for the server" (required for eg a local lan game)
20100319 12:45:22< Ivanovic> Crab__: ah, you mean the table of contents
20100319 12:45:24< Ivanovic> right
20100319 12:46:04< Ivanovic> Crab__: how are updates handled, if eg the title of a page is modified?
20100319 12:46:27< Crab__> Ivanovic: should change immediately
20100319 12:46:34-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 12:46:48< Ivanovic> when we eg ask aranair to change his page title to something like "Aranair - New Alliance System"
20100319 12:46:52< Ivanovic> ah, great
20100319 12:47:06< Crab__> think of it as a 'include'
20100319 12:47:12< Ivanovic> lovely
20100319 12:47:26< Ivanovic> i tend to think of this more as "evil black vodoo"
20100319 12:47:27< Ivanovic> ;)
20100319 12:47:59< shadowmaster> so phpBB doesn't seem so bad after all?
20100319 12:48:00< Crab__> well, at least it allows us to keep things perfectly in sync
20100319 12:48:15< Ivanovic> Crab__: yeah
20100319 12:48:19< Ivanovic> and this is really great
20100319 12:48:41< Ivanovic> especially since it removes the "hmm, there is a page that should be an SoC idea linked here, but where is the link?!?" part is gone
20100319 12:52:28-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-116.wl.rs.rrw.colby.edu] has quit [Quit: General_Fou_Fou]
20100319 12:57:51< Crab__> Ivanovic: note that, if needed, we will be able to group the generated list of student pages by their SoC idea.
20100319 12:58:19< Ivanovic> that's probably a great idea to do
20100319 12:58:30< Ivanovic> since it is likely that we will (again) get some 20 to 30 proposals
20100319 12:59:41< Ivanovic> shadowmaster, fendrin: you two don't want to mentor this year, right? (due to whatever reason, no matter if time or *whatever* else)
20100319 13:00:00< Ivanovic> yes, we could use more mentors and i think that there are some projects that you could mentor
20100319 13:01:49-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-119.public.roberts.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 13:23:12< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: nope
20100319 13:23:12< shadowmaster> mostly because I won't have much time during this semester
20100319 13:28:34-!- orfest [~kvirc@43.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 13:32:34-!- orfest [~kvirc@43.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 13:42:03-!- haoyu [~bhy@137.132.252.19] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 13:42:16< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: sure, no problem
20100319 13:42:19-!- haoyu [~bhy@137.132.252.19] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 13:52:29-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-119.public.roberts.colby.edu] has quit [Quit: General_Fou_Fou]
20100319 13:59:55-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-116.wl.rs.rrw.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:03:59< Ivanovic> i am off for some hours, cu
20100319 14:04:41-!- YogiHH [~c3f5f304@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20100319 14:05:26< orfest> Hi, Wesnoth developers!
20100319 14:05:41< Crab__> hi, orfest
20100319 14:05:44< orfest> I want to participate gsoc reimplementing network stack
20100319 14:05:58< orfest> could you suggest some things to be coded now?
20100319 14:06:20< Crab__> yes, I've read your proposal in the wiki. Have you already compiled wesnoth?
20100319 14:07:05< orfest> compiling :), will be ready in several minutes
20100319 14:07:32< orfest> I've noticed More powerful village naming  and  Config memory optimisation 
20100319 14:08:21< orfest> should you do them or something else more related to network/boost can be proposed?
20100319 14:08:46< Crab__> well, I'd think that it would be better to get straight to the point - start to document 'how you want to rewrite the network stack', start to study how it's currently done
20100319 14:09:23< orfest> I see that more features are wanted
20100319 14:09:42< orfest> but what are those issues?
20100319 14:09:55< orfest> "There's a number of issues with it"
20100319 14:10:09-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-124-191-176-143.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100319 14:10:21< Crab__> in the end, after GSoC, I really want to have the ability to code a standalone client for wesnoth multiplayer, which can connect to wesnoth multiplayer server multiple times, and, basically, host mutiple games at the same time.
20100319 14:12:11< Crab__> one of the issues was with stats uploading (btw, 'stats upload' is a small things and it would be really great for you to start with it). on exiting wesnoth, wesnoth tried to upload statistics, and, if that failed, it pauses for ~30 seconds waiting for socket timeout.
20100319 14:13:05< Crab__> another wanted feature is the ability to work through stock http proxies - many people are behind firewalls, which don't allow them to play wesnoth, but have internet access through a proxy.
20100319 14:13:12< orfest> is there a bug about this timeouts?
20100319 14:13:53< Crab__> no, but it was discussed on irc some time ago
20100319 14:13:54< orfest> Crab__: till this year I also was behind a proxy and had a very poor internet :)
20100319 14:14:10< Crab__> orfest: things are better now ? :)
20100319 14:14:14< orfest> ok, I'll look for that discussion
20100319 14:14:26< Crab__> a good idea would be to fetch the archive of irc logs and grep for boost asio
20100319 14:14:47< Crab__> ( http://wesnoth.debian.net/logs-dev/ )
20100319 14:14:56< orfest> thanks for the link :)
20100319 14:16:22< orfest> do you have any insights on the architecture of that multiplexing-client?
20100319 14:16:35< Soliton> Ivanovic: just replace game_config::version with "1.8*" after branching 1.8. a bit nicer would be to check for even/stable versions automatically but i didn't get around to implement that so far.
20100319 14:18:00< Crab__> orfest: no, not yet. but note that such a client will have to reuse part of wesnoth code, since it will have to work with 'config' objects which wesnoth uses to represent WML data structures.
20100319 14:18:31< orfest> Crab__: ok, will design keeping this in mind also
20100319 14:20:34< Crab__> look at wesnoth build files, such as src/CMakeLists.txt - you'll see how wesnoth MP server and wesnoth MP client reuse a common part
20100319 14:20:50< Crab__> s/wesnoth MP client/wesnoth
20100319 14:23:05< Crab__> so, I think that it's a good idea to propose a client/server redesign architecture, and to demonstrate your coding skills by rewriting a sample 'statistics uploader' using boost::asio.
20100319 14:23:27< orfest> ok
20100319 14:24:31< Crab__> see src/upload_log.cpp for the client
20100319 14:25:16-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:25:16-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 14:25:16-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:25:28< Rhonda> The s390 build issue is still still there - anyone wants to investigate? https://buildd.debian.org/fetch.cgi?pkg=wesnoth&arch=s390&ver=1%3A1.7.14-1&stamp=1268157078&file=log&as=raw
20100319 14:29:24-!- YogiHH [~c3f5f304@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:31:12-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 14:32:51-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 14:33:22-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:33:22-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 14:33:22-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:35:04-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-14-108.telecom.by] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:35:46-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:36:16-!- loonybot [~loonybot@ppp79-139-136-187.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:36:16-!- loonybot [~loonybot@ppp79-139-136-187.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 14:36:16-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:38:17-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 14:38:40-!- jpzork [~jpzork@188.26.60.59] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:39:23-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:39:23-!- stikonas [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 14:39:23-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 14:46:48-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-116.wl.rs.rrw.colby.edu] has quit [Quit: General_Fou_Fou]
20100319 14:55:59-!- Tesafilmchen [~quassel@p5B274937.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:00:23-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 15:02:41-!- stikonas_ [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:02:41-!- stikonas_ [~and@ctv-79-132-179-139.vinita.lt] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 15:02:41-!- stikonas_ [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:02:59-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20100319 15:12:37-!- haoyu [~bhy@cm26.delta25.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:13:00< haoyu> hi Crab__ 
20100319 15:13:35< haoyu> Crab__, I'm interested in the GSoC Lua AI project
20100319 15:14:44< Gambit> haoyu: He may not be around at the moment. It's a multinational project. 
20100319 15:15:29< haoyu> Gambit, I see. What's his timezone?
20100319 15:15:39-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@137.146.137.198] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:15:48< Gambit> Well his info says paris france.
20100319 15:16:20-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@137.146.137.198] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 15:17:32< haoyu> Gambit, thank you.
20100319 15:17:57< haoyu> Gambit,  by the way, what's the meaning of your name? I know a lab is called "Gambit"
20100319 15:18:41< Gambit> Dual meaning. 1. The greatest X-Men ever. 2. "a move made to gain an advantage". Commonly used in chess.
20100319 15:19:17< Gambit> But this is better talk for #wesnoth than #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:19:43< Blarumyrram> every move is made to gain an advantage though
20100319 15:20:41< Gambit> Also according to google Crab's clock has 3:19 PM or 15:00 
20100319 15:21:14-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-028.wireless.cotter.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:21:31< Gambit> He's probably out bowling :o
20100319 15:21:39< haoyu> Gambit, yeah, I see. :)
20100319 15:21:48< Crab__> haoyu: no, I'm at work atm
20100319 15:22:19< Crab__> haoyu: it's 16:22 for me atm
20100319 15:22:36< haoyu> Crab__, ok. so google is making mistake :p
20100319 15:22:45< haoyu> Crab__, so do you have time to talk?
20100319 15:23:22< Crab__> haoyu: no, not now. I'll be home in 5-6 hours
20100319 15:23:47< Crab__> haoyu: but, if you're got any quick questions, I can answer them now
20100319 15:24:53< haoyu> Crab__, ok. But that would be 3am for me. may I have your email?
20100319 15:26:26< haoyu> Crab__, I'm interested in the Lua AI project (as I'm quite interesting in the langauge binding stuff). But I see there's already a people start to working on it. So I want ask, what's your policy for such conflict?
20100319 15:26:46< Crab__> haoyu: then, in 1.5 days it'll be possible to catch me in good time for you, on the day after tomorrow
20100319 15:27:47< Crab__> haoyu: the policy is: we will have X mentors, the google will tell us we have Y slots  (Y <= X), and we'll have to choose Y best students.
20100319 15:27:50< haoyu> em, thanks
20100319 15:28:16< Crab__> haoyu: it is possible that two students will work on a single project, and it's possible that a certain project will not get any students at all.
20100319 15:28:25-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-028.wireless.cotter.colby.edu] has quit [Quit: General_Fou_Fou]
20100319 15:28:57< Crab__> haoyu: be sure to check http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Lua_AI#Possible_pre-gsoc_tasks
20100319 15:30:35< Crab__> haoyu: in general, the number of applying students is >> than number of slots. so, you'd have to demonstrate that your project is a good one and that you'll be able to complete it.
20100319 15:30:56< haoyu> Crab__, yes I have seen that.
20100319 15:31:07-!- TWW2 [~TWW2@n128-227-40-2.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:31:40< haoyu> Crab__, I think I'm capable for doing this because I was working on boost.python and SWIG
20100319 15:32:22< haoyu> ok I'll start to try these tasks :)
20100319 15:32:25< haoyu> thanks
20100319 15:32:40< Crab__> haoyu: most imporant of all, have fun. find things that interest you, discuss them and try them
20100319 15:34:26< haoyu> sure. :)
20100319 15:35:26< Crab__> see data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg and src/scripting/lua.cpp
20100319 15:37:43 * Gambit hopes someone picks up Persistent Gameworld
20100319 15:38:30-!- Desciero [~chatzilla@adsl-074-164-230-146.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:39:36 * haoyu is checking out the code
20100319 15:39:40< Crab__> Gambit: well, note I can do something during the summer, too. just for fun of it. So, even some of the unpicked projects will be done.
20100319 15:46:46-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:50:52-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20100319 15:55:50-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-090.public.runnals.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:55:56-!- nobody [~4e30c537@gateway/web/freenode/x-brlwsgphdsycvaoq] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:56:57-!- stikonas_ is now known as stikonas
20100319 15:57:07-!- nobody [~4e30c537@gateway/web/freenode/x-brlwsgphdsycvaoq] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 15:58:01-!- nobody [~4e30c537@gateway/web/freenode/x-csvvoffqlyapaslg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 15:59:08-!- jpzork [~jpzork@188.26.60.59] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 16:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 71 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100319 16:10:03-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-090.public.runnals.colby.edu] has quit [Quit: General_Fou_Fou]
20100319 16:10:58-!- Master_Chief [~chatzilla@59.177.7.250] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 16:11:10-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-090.public.runnals.colby.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 16:14:13-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@dhip-090.public.runnals.colby.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 16:15:40-!- nobody [~4e30c537@gateway/web/freenode/x-csvvoffqlyapaslg] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 16:27:37< Master_Chief> quit
20100319 16:27:48< Master_Chief> exit
20100319 16:27:51-!- Master_Chief [~chatzilla@59.177.7.250] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]]
20100319 16:30:43-!- TWW2 [~TWW2@n128-227-40-2.xlate.ufl.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100319 16:38:03-!- sebas___ [~be2a4c76@gateway/web/freenode/x-jbtgsddafnysugii] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 16:42:22-!- Blarumyrram [~Blarumyrr@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has quit [Quit: Lahkun]
20100319 16:58:37-!- athros [~athros@www.meteostar.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:04:23-!- meric [~Eric@124-168-169-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: meric]
20100319 17:04:44< Tesafilmchen> a great thumbs up for the person who did the notification thingie (freedesktop or knotify, dunno which it is) , love it :)
20100319 17:04:45-!- Blarumyrran [~Blarumyrr@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:06:54-!- Mythological_ [Mythologic@77.28.117.105] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:07:53-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100319 17:10:09-!- Mythological [Mythologic@77.28.127.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20100319 17:11:26-!- YogiHH [~c3f5f304@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20100319 17:13:04-!- Mythological_ is now known as Mythological
20100319 17:18:38-!- boucman [~58b8e47f@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:19:42-!- Tesafilmchen [~quassel@p5B274937.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100319 17:20:47-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:36:09-!- athros [~athros@www.meteostar.com] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 17:36:53-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 17:37:17-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:37:30-!- happygrue [~George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:43:36-!- qemqemqem [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:47:26-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100319 17:47:41-!- fendrin [~fabi@88-134-187-173-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:47:41-!- fendrin [~fabi@88-134-187-173-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 17:47:41-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 17:57:52-!- ilor [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:05:29-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100319 18:10:29-!- qemqemqem [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100319 18:16:36-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@43.sub-75-195-220.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:23:11-!- qemqemqem_ [~quassel@dhcp-urwireless-128-151-180-54.wireless.rochester.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:27:28-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:33:18-!- boucman [~58b8e47f@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100319 18:33:22-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100319 18:36:21-!- General_Fou_Fou_ [~Sarah@125.sub-75-236-212.myvzw.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:37:54-!- General_Fou_Fou_ [~Sarah@125.sub-75-236-212.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 18:38:13-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:38:28-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@43.sub-75-195-220.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100319 18:42:15< Gambit> shadowmaster: ?
20100319 18:42:21< shadowmaster> regarding bug #15096...
20100319 18:42:55< shadowmaster> I've heard rumors that the halos engine was written long ago before the whole layered animation engine had become what it is now
20100319 18:43:23< shadowmaster> I also know that there were problems with applying image path functions to haloes because that engine doesn't use image::get_image() like it should
20100319 18:43:55< shadowmaster> which means that I cannot support it since image path functions are parsed via the locator system invoked by get_image
20100319 18:44:36< Gambit> All greek to me.
20100319 18:44:44< Gambit> so basically it depends on when the image path is applied?
20100319 18:45:00< shadowmaster> no, it depends on what code path receives an image path that contains functors
20100319 18:45:22< shadowmaster> in this case it's down to haloes, or not haloes.
20100319 18:45:36< Gambit> [item]s are not haloes though.
20100319 18:45:55< shadowmaster> no idea about what exactly causes what you mention in comment #5, though. You shouldn't expect scaling of an image to preserve the original boundaries and recenter the content on that rectangle
20100319 18:46:23< Gambit> It does that when you apply it to the "fully working" ones though.
20100319 18:46:45< shadowmaster> particularly because it'd defeat the whole point of scaling. I'm not sure if you are just experiencing a side effect of not using a 72x72 surface for [item] images, or something else
20100319 18:47:23< Gambit> I was scaling a 72*72 image up and down (to other squares)
20100319 18:47:31< shadowmaster> and yes, [item]image= has its limitations. Unlike most other things since 1.5.x, it cannot handle multihex images correctly...unless you use a [item] halo instead
20100319 18:48:09< Gambit> When you apply it to a unit's animations it both scales and recenters them.
20100319 18:48:14< shadowmaster> which then brings us to the problem with the haloes mechanism being implemented in a completely different fashion to the rest of the animation system for some reason.
20100319 18:48:21-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:48:44< shadowmaster> most likely historical
20100319 18:48:47< Gambit> Same with the icon for [set_menu_item]
20100319 18:48:54< Gambit> and other ones that imo "work perfectly"
20100319 18:49:53< shadowmaster> Gambit: what are "overlays" in comment #7? unit overlays?
20100319 18:49:57< Gambit> I can't explain what it does in your terms. It moves the center of the new, scaled, image to where the center of the old unscaled ones.
20100319 18:50:00< Gambit> Yes.
20100319 18:50:09< Gambit> That was where I originally found the weird behaviour.
20100319 18:50:21< Gambit> It won't scale them vertically up. I can't remember if it worked on down.
20100319 18:50:45< shadowmaster> it could also be handled differently to the rest of the animations system, for all I know
20100319 18:51:06< Gambit> Well it acts just like haloes.
20100319 18:51:11< Gambit> Except haloes make the  game crash :s
20100319 18:51:24< shadowmaster> all that the image path functions do is give the game engine a modified surface. Whether they can handle that or not is not my business
20100319 18:51:37< Gambit> :(
20100319 18:52:02-!- Desciero [~chatzilla@adsl-074-164-230-146.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20100319 18:52:10< Gambit> Well I'm working around all those issues with standing animations. I don't know of anyone else who is using scale.
20100319 18:52:27< shadowmaster> and then there's [story], another part of the engine I've messed with
20100319 18:52:50< Gambit> It scales the image, and then it streches it!
20100319 18:52:53< Gambit> strangest thing.
20100319 18:52:59< shadowmaster> no, it isn't strange
20100319 18:53:15< Gambit> It's made to strech images to fill the screen?
20100319 18:53:17< shadowmaster> the story screens renderer does post-processing of its own after receiving the get_image() results with any image path functions applied
20100319 18:53:28< shadowmaster> there's a way to avoid autoscaling of background images
20100319 18:53:40< Gambit> *not strech to fill the screen, strech to original dimensions 
20100319 18:53:55< Gambit> Actually I can't remember properly at this point.
20100319 18:54:28< shadowmaster> specify story.scale_background as a true value
20100319 18:54:28< shadowmaster> er, part, not story
20100319 18:54:28< shadowmaster> e.g. [story] [part] scale_background=yes
20100319 18:54:31< shadowmaster> er, I mean false value, and no, not yes
20100319 18:54:54< shadowmaster> the default is a true value, when not specified by the WML
20100319 18:55:15< Gambit> I guess I should document this stuff in the wiki.
20100319 18:55:35< shadowmaster> note that this apparently used to be considered a feature since story screen background art is generally expected to have a very high resolution
20100319 18:55:45< Gambit> Yes I know.
20100319 18:55:58< Gambit> At that point I was just testing ~SCALE with everything I could think of.
20100319 18:56:22< shadowmaster> I'm not sure how to follow up the bug report with this information. (esr ?)
20100319 18:57:12< shadowmaster> in other words, there are non-bugs (a..k.a. "features"), bugs in some engine components, and bugs in other components, all mixed in your report
20100319 18:57:47< shadowmaster> and then some need to be confirmed to be bugs by someone who understands those parts
20100319 18:58:13-!- boucman [~58b8e47f@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 18:58:22< shadowmaster> (phew, I can see why mordante almost killed me for filling a multi-issue bug)
20100319 18:58:28< ilor> shadowmaster: by the way, do you know if there is a Pyton implementation of image path functions?
20100319 18:58:44< shadowmaster> ilor: I replied to you in the logs regarding that, some days ago :(
20100319 18:59:03< ilor> shadowmaster: :( must have missed one day of the logs
20100319 18:59:30< shadowmaster> data/tools/unit_tree/TeamColorizer should implement the correct color range RC  logic nowadays
20100319 19:00:07< shadowmaster> that doesn't make it a image path function interpreter, though, and I don't think it provides the RC a.k.a. ~PAL() logic
20100319 19:00:51< shadowmaster> *simple RC
20100319 19:01:24< ilor> shadowmaster: thanks
20100319 19:02:02< shadowmaster> (especially now that image path functions can do much more than just RC/TC and greyscale conversion)
20100319 19:03:34< ilor> I figure that addon-server-www-interface-wise, RC/TC will do 
20100319 19:04:13-!- Iskander [kvirc@91.205.83.55] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 19:04:16-!- Iskander [kvirc@91.205.83.55] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 19:04:22-!- Iskander [kvirc@91.205.83.55] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 19:04:35< shadowmaster> only if you assume that users won't want to use the other functions, or decide to introduce that restrain :)
20100319 19:05:29< shadowmaster> other functions could be trivially reimplemented with help from some image manipulation framework like gd* or ImageMagick, though
20100319 19:06:08-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@d083036.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 19:06:11< shadowmaster> * (where gd should be fine for presentation purposes)
20100319 19:06:15< fendrin> hi YogiHH
20100319 19:06:19-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@d083036.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 19:06:19-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 19:06:24< YogiHH> hi everyone
20100319 19:06:29< shadowmaster> hi there
20100319 19:09:06< Iskander> hi all
20100319 19:09:14< YogiHH> Ivanovic: About your release plans: I'd like to have a look at that savegame bug, but i can't promise to make it in time. I will keep you updated.
20100319 19:09:25< YogiHH> hi Iskander
20100319 19:09:45< shadowmaster> um, s/restrain/restraint/
20100319 19:10:01-!- Blueblaze [~nick@adsl-99-158-47-51.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 19:10:09< esr> shadowmaster: What were you wondering about?
20100319 19:10:27< shadowmaster> about how to reply to that bug I mentioned given the long talk I gave above
20100319 19:18:14< fendrin> esr: Please ask the volunteers in the writer's forum to invent names for the Quenoth elves.
20100319 19:18:57< esr> fendrin: You mean personal names?  How many do you need?
20100319 19:19:56< shadowmaster> hey, wait a second, you won't get rid of Ryoko, will you? :(
20100319 19:21:17-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20100319 19:27:32-!- ettin_ [~jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100319 19:30:38-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@wesnoth/developer/yogihh] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 19:33:09-!- ilor [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 19:39:40-!- sebas___ [~be2a4c76@gateway/web/freenode/x-jbtgsddafnysugii] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100319 19:43:35< fendrin> esr: Well, in the same range as the poolsize of the other races is from which their names are autogenerated.
20100319 19:44:34< esr> Where will this string live? Are you plasnning to make Quenoth elves a first-class race? 
20100319 19:45:17< shadowmaster> preferably that string will live in a race declaration as it should. It'd spam saved games otherwise
20100319 19:46:04< shadowmaster> assuming overriding it in unit types is supported at all.
20100319 19:47:12< fendrin> esr: Yes, that goes inside a [race] tag.
20100319 19:47:43< esr> OK.
20100319 19:54:02-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 19:59:35< fendrin> esr: The system is quite flexible. It can generate names out of syllables. 
20100319 19:59:54< fendrin> So it's not realy a call for names but for syllables that generate names.
20100319 20:01:49< esr> Syllable-based generation works well for placemes, which have stylized affix patterns, but not so well for personal names.  It's best to draw those from a list.
20100319 20:03:27-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:05:26-!- [Relic] [~relic@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:05:26< esr> fendrin: The challenge hear is to come up with names that don't quite sound wood-Elvish.
20100319 20:05:41< esr> It can be done.
20100319 20:06:28< [Relic]> Hello :)
20100319 20:07:34-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100319 20:09:57< Gambit> Do wesnoth arrays start at 0 or 1?
20100319 20:11:57< Gambit> Sorry wrong channel.
20100319 20:12:23< [Relic]> think they start with 0
20100319 20:16:43-!- ettin [~jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:23:20< esr> fendrin: Name generation now in progress....have 13 male names, 11 female.  I'll think up more in the shower.
20100319 20:27:08-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@rrcs-24-39-30-121.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:27:52-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:29:46-!- Tesafilmchen [~quassel@p5B276515.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:34:12-!- jekintrivedi [~root@116.72.242.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100319 20:39:09-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 20:39:30< mordante> servus
20100319 20:39:31-!- boucman [~58b8e47f@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20100319 20:42:21-!- General_Fou_Fou [~Sarah@rrcs-24-39-30-121.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: General_Fou_Fou]
20100319 20:45:29-!- Blueblaze [~nick@adsl-99-158-47-51.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100319 20:55:31-!- qemqemqem_ [~quassel@dhcp-urwireless-128-151-180-54.wireless.rochester.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100319 20:58:11-!- Chusslove [~Chusslove@brsg-d9bef7c6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 21:00:04-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100319 21:00:28-!- Steinwachs [~matthew@c-24-23-45-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:01:09< mordante> fendrin, any news on http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561580 ?
20100319 21:02:39< fendrin> mordante: no, haven't done any work regarding that debian bug report.
20100319 21:02:48< esr> fendrin: Fir all your Quenoth-elf naming needs:
20100319 21:03:00< esr> Male: Amru,Aru,Dees,Elin,Ethul,Eyrin,Hamar,Ithrak,Kiru,Kitru,Llor,Nanuil,Methrin,Narek,Paran,Queren,Sul,Talak,Talru,Telen,Valen,Vel,Veru,Zan,Zharu,Zhir
20100319 21:03:01< esr> Female: Arani,Athri,Bethra,Dara,Dena,Ela,Eren,Eshta,Fala,Hira,Inalla,Iri,Jenn,Khiri,Kora,Lazha,Marai,Nera,Ryara,Rynen,Ryona,Selie,Telra,Vala,Zeyla,Zhara
20100319 21:04:00< fendrin> esr: Good, work. Do you want me to commit them?
20100319 21:04:05< mordante> fendrin, :-( any chance it will be fixed before 1.8?
20100319 21:04:48< esr> fendrin: If you have a branch.  We probably shouldn't be breaking string freeze.
20100319 21:05:19< fendrin> mordante: I will have a look before the release. But I won't fix them if it is nontrivial. The utbs coding is very complicated and you most likely introduce more bugs with every attempted fix.
20100319 21:05:50< mordante> then let's hope it's trivial
20100319 21:06:07< fendrin> esr: https://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/wesnoth-umc-dev/trunk/Quenoth-Sandbox/units/quenoth/quenoth.cfg
20100319 21:07:22< esr> fendrin: luminal -> liminal
20100319 21:07:33-!- BWaters [~ben@CPE00222d540c10-CM00222d540c0d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:07:44< mordante> ilor any info regarding how to reproduce the crash you ran into?
20100319 21:08:53< fendrin> esr: fixed, thanks.
20100319 21:08:57< esr> And I think I know where those duplicate names are coming from (Debian bug item #1).  
20100319 21:10:34< esr> Look at the scxenario fiile for Blood Is Thicker Than Water, near line 1061.  Bunch of rebel units recruited with the same name.  Easily fixed by calling GENERIC_UNIT rather than NAMED_GENERIC_UNIT.  I'll do it.
20100319 21:11:54-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: elias, AnMaster, isaac
20100319 21:12:57< esr> Oh, frack.  UtBS is *full* of bogus blank-name declrations like that,. Has 69 of them.
20100319 21:13:08< esr> I'll fix.
20100319 21:13:14< esr> Literally 69...
20100319 21:14:54-!- dtiger [~dtiger@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-14-108.telecom.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 21:15:09-!- Netsplit over, joins: elias
20100319 21:15:10-!- Netsplit over, joins: AnMaster, isaac
20100319 21:18:06< zookeeper> esr, i'll check it when you commit, i suspect some of those _might_ be intentional
20100319 21:18:58< esr> zookeeper: I'm checking for uses of the generic names in messages and so forth.
20100319 21:20:06< esr> I should say those are *blank-ID* declarations.  No IDS, and names that are iun effect riles, likle "Troll Skirmisher" - there were 4 or 65 of those.
20100319 21:20:17-!- ilor [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:20:29< esr> I see no reason these shhouldn't turn into GENERIC_UNIT calls.
20100319 21:20:45< esr> s/riles/roles/
20100319 21:21:06< ilor> mordante: re the crash I was getting it on my desktop when trying to run a local server and two clients
20100319 21:21:34< ilor> I have a script for that which starts the server and the clients with a few seconds delay between them
20100319 21:21:48< ilor> this was on windows, though
20100319 21:23:10< mordante> ilor, can you pastebin that script?
20100319 21:24:09< ilor> mordante: I don't have it here ... basically start wesnothd, start one client, wait 2s, start other client
20100319 21:24:31< ilor> userdata is separate
20100319 21:25:54-!- boucman [~58b8e47f@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:27:02< mordante> ilor, I tested few times, but can't reproduce it
20100319 21:27:42< mordante> Rhonda, try to build Wesnoth with --disable-strict-compilation as configure option
20100319 21:29:23< ilor> mordante: I'll try again on sunday when I get to that desktop... on a netbook atm
20100319 21:29:47< mordante> ok
20100319 21:30:15< esr> zookeeper: What's supposed to happen if yiu declare a unit with a name but a blank ID?  Should that be a problem, or will the enginwe autogenerate a unique ID?
20100319 21:30:29< ilor> mordante: at least the crash you reported wayyy back should be fixed finally
20100319 21:31:22< zookeeper> esr, the latter
20100319 21:31:25< mordante> ilor, cool which one exactly?
20100319 21:31:42< Tesafilmchen> http://img444.imageshack.us/i/bildschirmfoto6.png/
20100319 21:31:43< zookeeper> esr, probably a lot of those empty-id calls are leftovers from a while back when i fixed the duplicate id's
20100319 21:31:48< Tesafilmchen> and then crash
20100319 21:31:56< esr> zookeeper: Then the change I'm working on shouldn't be necessary?
20100319 21:32:34< Tesafilmchen> segmentation fault
20100319 21:32:39< Tesafilmchen> again
20100319 21:32:42< zookeeper> esr, well, i can't think of any reasons besides cleaning up the WML
20100319 21:33:27< esr> zookeeper: Hmmmm....well, can you make any sense out of this then?
20100319 21:33:38< esr> 1. If there are multiple survivors from the Elvish Rebels in "Blood is
20100319 21:33:40< esr> Thicker than Water" WML errors are triggered in "The Battle for
20100319 21:33:41< esr> Zocthanol Isle" as there are several units that can be recalled with the
20100319 21:33:42< esr> same name.  It's annoying and fills half of the screen with error
20100319 21:33:43< ilor> mordante: five down in total... at least one of which was yours ;P
20100319 21:33:44< esr> messages but doesn't crash.
20100319 21:34:13< esr> That's from Debian bug #561580
20100319 21:34:13< mordante> ilor, ok cool 
20100319 21:34:26< mordante> Tesafilmchen, which version of Wesnoth do you use?
20100319 21:34:34< Tesafilmchen> rc
20100319 21:34:54< Tesafilmchen> ubuntu packages from IT source
20100319 21:35:18< mordante> ilor, might Tesafilmchen's it be one of the 5 you fixed?
20100319 21:36:12< ilor> hm, no, I don't recall markup breakdowns lately
20100319 21:36:40< ilor> mordante: btw did you know the server can send game id=X *after* it's sent game id X+1?
20100319 21:36:48< zookeeper> esr, humh
20100319 21:37:22< mordante> ilor, no I didn't, it really sends them in that order or do you receive them in that order?
20100319 21:37:57< zookeeper> esr, but it still isn't caused only by multiple units with the same name in your recall list, right?
20100319 21:38:14< ilor> mordante: send, it even ends up in the server logs out of order
20100319 21:38:43< ilor> crab had a run through the logs and found that it happens around 2% of the time, which I think is absurdly high
20100319 21:39:38< mordante> can it be a threading issue? game X starts to process pauses X + 1 gets processed and finishes, X awakes again and finishes?
20100319 21:40:44< Gambit> Has anyone ever tested if wensoth crashes at a certain really high turn number?
20100319 21:40:50< ilor> mordante: I'd say so, since game id's are assigned sequentially in theory
20100319 21:41:05< mordante> Gambit, I've reached 365 turnes once
20100319 21:42:01< mordante> turns*
20100319 21:42:06< Gambit> mordante: I'm running a simulation with my solar system generator in which it will alert me if it generates a solar system with 5 suns. It generates one system per turn. I am up to turn 1900 and climbing at 3 turns per second.
20100319 21:42:30-!- boucman [~58b8e47f@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100319 21:42:42< mordante> Gambit, well guess that's a nice number ;-)
20100319 21:42:59< Gambit> I was just wondering what would happen when it reaches 5 digits.
20100319 21:43:08< Gambit> Since it doesn't look like the box holds that much.
20100319 21:43:13< mordante> ilor, but is it a problem that the order is erratic?
20100319 21:43:21< Tesafilmchen> ok tons of : 20100319 21:41:31 error config: Illegal character in map: (Zc) 'Zc'
20100319 21:43:21< Tesafilmchen> 20100319 21:41:31 error config: Error while loading the map: Illegal character in map: (Zc) 'Zc'
20100319 21:43:21< Tesafilmchen> The map cannot be loadedP
20100319 21:43:41< mordante> Zc is a custom terrain letter
20100319 21:43:59< Tesafilmchen> mmh is there a better place to post that code from gdb ?
20100319 21:44:06< ilor> mordante: well, not anymore, lobby handles that correctly now
20100319 21:44:21< mordante> Tesafilmchen, paste.debian.net
20100319 21:44:27< Tesafilmchen> ty
20100319 21:44:29< mordante> ilor, ok 
20100319 21:44:49< esr> zookeeper: I have no idea what it's caused by.  My suspicion fell on the blank IDs for the rebel Elves.
20100319 21:44:54< ilor> it was quite an issue since up until tuesday the code assumed id's won't arrive out of order, and triggered a full refresh when things went haywire
20100319 21:45:10< ilor> however, the "trigger full refresh" bit was, uh, buggy itself
20100319 21:45:46< ilor> things were a lot simpler without the diff gamelist updates :P
20100319 21:46:12< mordante> that's often the problem with optimization, the code gets more complex :-/
20100319 21:46:35< Tesafilmchen> http://paste.debian.net/64902/
20100319 21:46:51< mordante> not too happy with how some parts of the gui code look after speeding up the lobby :-(
20100319 21:46:59-!- gtpd [~803d1102@gateway/web/freenode/x-yytqkfgrvhhkoknd] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:47:06< ilor> mordante: this was one of those optimizations that would've been a lot easier to work with from the beginning, rather than patching things up
20100319 21:47:32< zookeeper> esr, i'd suggest checking from a savefile whether they have sane id's then
20100319 21:47:49< zookeeper> (i'm semi-busy with other stuff atm)
20100319 21:47:50< ilor> however there's no way I'm attempting player list diff updates anytime soon
20100319 21:47:57-!- gtpd [~803d1102@gateway/web/freenode/x-yytqkfgrvhhkoknd] has quit [Client Quit]
20100319 21:48:15< mordante> ilor, I know the feeling, I want to rewrite some parts of gui2 again to make the code look sane again
20100319 21:48:22< esr> zookeeper: I think I've run out of time. I have to pack for a weekend trip now.  I'll have to leave this one to you.
20100319 21:48:51< zookeeper> all righty
20100319 21:48:59-!- allefant [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:49:07< mordante> ilor, ok then we just need to see how fast it is in practice
20100319 21:49:37< mordante> ilor, I assume the thing Tesafilmchen just pastebinned is fixed (at least an error I reported long ago ;-) )
20100319 21:49:53 * mordante hopes that's the one fixed
20100319 21:50:29< ilor> mordante: yes that one was the first to go
20100319 21:50:58< ilor> it uncovered two more in the process, but I'm confident it's okay now
20100319 21:51:10< mordante> ok nice to know that's the one
20100319 21:51:27-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20100319 21:53:03-!- Espreon [~espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 21:55:39< mordante> teaser, I see ilor changed quite a bit of the lobby refresh calls, could you test whether it fixes 15561 by accident?
20100319 21:56:01< mordante> teaser, if not I'll look further
20100319 21:56:41< teaser> so, that means getting trunk right? is there a way to use my dev-release check out to create a new for trunk?
20100319 21:57:17< teaser> can I just copy the files to a new dir? (mordante ^^)
20100319 21:58:08< mordante> teaser, you are using trunk aren't you?
20100319 21:59:19< teaser> no, I have the stable and dev releases (swithed by tags) only, but I'll try to copy my wesnoth-dev dir to a wesnoth-trunk dir and then update it
20100319 21:59:47< teaser> all this will have to wait though, my comp is doubling as cinema in 1 min
20100319 22:00:49< mordante> this normally works, you can also switch to trunk test and switch back to the tag
20100319 22:02:41-!- esr [~chatzilla@static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235958]]
20100319 22:05:53-!- qemqemqem_ [~quassel@cpe-74-74-155-246.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:06:16< Rhonda> mordante: I know about that option and will use it with next upload if necessary, but I thought you lot would like to know about such issues - at least in the past it was like that. :)
20100319 22:06:52< mordante> Rhonda, I am interested in it, but only wonder why it only happens at s390
20100319 22:07:36< Rhonda> You're not the only one - one of our Debian buildd maintainers was confused why this only happens on s390 too because it looks like a more general issue.
20100319 22:08:06< mordante> you mean other packages have the same problem?
20100319 22:08:06< Rhonda> I was told that "hercules" might be an option to try to reproduce it on a regular system, too. That's an 390 emulator.
20100319 22:08:23< Rhonda> No, he would have thought that this to be an issue on non-s390 archs, too.
20100319 22:13:34< mordante> Rhonda, do you know which gcc version is exactly used on that machine?
20100319 22:15:34-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@CPE-124-191-176-143.oxqn1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:21:36< Gambit> Regarding earlier: The user will run out of ram long before wesnoth reaches it's turn limit.
20100319 22:21:50< Gambit> Wesnoth is a ram hog :s
20100319 22:21:56< Gambit> The save file I guess?
20100319 22:22:14< mordante> I guess so too
20100319 22:22:38< mordante> but having 1000+ turns isn't really realistically 
20100319 22:22:41< Gambit> It's up to 728mb of memory at 7800 turns.
20100319 22:22:53< Gambit> I know. No user will make it to this.
20100319 22:24:01< Blarumyrran> And if they do, they can feel happy about "beating the system"
20100319 22:24:12< Blarumyrran> Consider it a feature
20100319 22:24:36< mordante> I'm off night
20100319 22:24:58< ilor> night mordante
20100319 22:25:15-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 22:25:30< Rhonda> mordante: 4.4 I would expect, not sure though if it's not contained in the logs.
20100319 22:25:43< Rhonda> mordante: 4.4.3 is the version in Debian unstable currently.
20100319 22:30:59< Gambit> gotta close pidgin. need more ram.
20100319 22:31:01-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100319 22:32:37-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:37:44-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:40:34-!- Iskander [kvirc@91.205.83.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100319 22:41:39< Gambit> Okay I have some interesting news.
20100319 22:41:52< Gambit> I made it up to over 10k turns. Wesnoth was using over 1gb of memory at that point.
20100319 22:41:56< Gambit> I undroided side one.
20100319 22:42:04< Gambit> And wesnoths memory usage doubled almost instantly.
20100319 22:42:10< Gambit> Then it silently crashed.
20100319 22:42:26< Crab_> cool :)
20100319 22:43:22< Gambit> Yeah but why would it crash *after* I was done sending the turn counter through the roof?
20100319 22:43:56< Crab_> maybe different code path handled this... 
20100319 22:43:56< Gambit> Something to do with the human taking over?
20100319 22:44:09< Crab_> do you, by chance, have a stack trace ?
20100319 22:44:14< Gambit> A wha?
20100319 22:44:40< Gambit> If you explain to me how to do that I can run it again. It only took a 45 minutes.
20100319 22:44:46 * Gambit really wanted to keep the save file :(
20100319 22:45:07< Crab_> (if you crash wesnoth when it's running in a debugger, you'll be able to get access to some information about 'where' it crashed. it might or might not be relevant, but still interesting to see)
20100319 22:46:00-!- Jetrel [~Jetrel@wesnoth/artist/jetrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:46:32< Gambit> How do I run wesnoth in a debugger?
20100319 22:46:37< Jetrel> wesbot:  seen ivanovic
20100319 22:46:37< wesbot> Jetrel: Queried user last spoke 40m 18s ago.  Ivanovic is currently here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-de.
20100319 22:46:42< Jetrel> yey
20100319 22:47:13< Crab_> on *nix, " gdb ./wesnoth "
20100319 22:47:53< Ivanovic> Jetrel: whats up?
20100319 22:48:00< Crab_> (or gdb /path/to/wesnoth )
20100319 22:48:20< Crab_> it'll pause immediately after starting, type 'continue' and press enter
20100319 22:48:21< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  there's a change I'd like to do before 1.8 goes out, and which kitty, thespaceinvader and I have all agreed on as a change in policy.  We no longer want to allow "montage" images as the single images representing a campaign.
20100319 22:48:34-!- ceninan [~ceninan@c-ea3be255.1119-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:48:46< Ivanovic> Jetrel: uhm, okay
20100319 22:48:49-!- ceninan [~ceninan@c-ea3be255.1119-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20100319 22:48:51< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  essentially we want anything that's not crudely shopped together.
20100319 22:48:58-!- thespaceinvader [~chatzilla@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:49:35-!- Upth [ogmar@adsl-75-26-176-30.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 22:49:39< Gambit> Crab_: So that's a terminal command for ubuntu?
20100319 22:49:45< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  so the new rule is, we want to use only portraits of a main, iconic character from the campaign, or a cropped story picture.
20100319 22:50:20< Crab_> Gambit: yes. "gdb /path/to/wesnoth/binary", then "continue"<enter> and, when it crashes, type "bt" (without quotes) and press enter.
20100319 22:50:37< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  we're not opposed to someone creating a custom "title" picture for the campaign, but it has to be *kitty* good.  It has to actually look professionally done.
20100319 22:51:04< Ivanovic> Jetrel: and what does this mean for the existing campaign images?
20100319 22:51:16< Ivanovic> which ones have to be removed/redone?
20100319 22:51:23< Ivanovic> and: will you do so before 1.8?
20100319 22:51:34< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  Right now we have several campaigns where someone grabbed two portraits and did a very ugly job of merging them together - I'm going to replace them right now with portraits from the campaigns.
20100319 22:52:27-!- Upth is now known as Upthorn
20100319 22:53:01< Jetrel> Some of our portraits are just plain ugly, but .. such is life. :P
20100319 22:53:10< Crab_> Gambit: an example stack trace (also called 'backtrace') - http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/njdeSHxA - if I had compiled wesnoth in debug mode, I'd also had line numbers in the source files. but even function names (which I get from unstripped non-debug binary) tell me 'where I am' quite precisely.
20100319 22:53:44< Gambit> Of course it could react completely different on linux.
20100319 22:55:45< Gambit> Vista was the OS I just ran it on.
20100319 22:55:58< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  so I'm downloading a copy of rc1 to make sure any replacement images behave nicely before I commit them. :)
20100319 22:56:07< Ivanovic> Jetrel: okay
20100319 22:56:55< Crab_> Gambit: oh, vista... (
20100319 22:57:03< Gambit> Crab_: I don't suppose you know how to get a backtrace on that?
20100319 22:57:26< Jetrel> Gambit:  well, what's your development environment?
20100319 22:57:56< Gambit> ?
20100319 22:57:59< Crab_> well, you can either use MSVC (Express edition is free), or you can install gdb there, as well...
20100319 22:58:00< Jetrel> Gambit:  do you have any of the gcc/gdb tools installed (you'd know if you do, because you'd have had to install them yourself)?
20100319 22:58:16< Gambit> I'm going to say no then Jetrel.
20100319 22:58:28< Crab_> Gambit: see http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/index.php/GDB_on_Windows.html
20100319 22:58:59< Jetrel> Gambit:  okay, right now, then, you've got nothing pre-installed on your system which can do a stacktrace, so you'll need to install something else to do it.
20100319 22:59:11< Jetrel> Like Crab_'s link.
20100319 23:02:11< Gambit> In the end will this really be useful though?
20100319 23:02:28< Jetrel> What are you trying to accomplish?
20100319 23:02:56< Gambit> I crashed the game on purpose, but it didn't crash exactly how I expected it to.
20100319 23:04:17< Gambit> It was right for the wrong reasons I guess is the cliched way to put it. And Crab said a stacktrace might be interesting.
20100319 23:05:32< Crab_> Gambit: this might be useful, if that crash comes at lower turn number for someone with a lower-end system with less ram. but, it's just interesting. you can just tell 'how to reproduce it' and maybe someone who has a debugger already will try...
20100319 23:06:01< Crab_> it all depends on how much time it'll take you...
20100319 23:06:02-!- MikeJB [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:06:27< Upthorn> sort of like how back in the win9x days, it would often bluescreen on me when I told it to shutdown. (actually 2000 did that on my desktop as well)
20100319 23:06:37< Gambit> Make a scenario with only one side. Droid that side, let it run until wesnoth is eating up copious amounts of memory, and then undroid the side.
20100319 23:06:44< Gambit> Be watching your resource monitor the entire time.
20100319 23:06:50< Upthorn> in response to your comment about "Right for the wrong reasons"
20100319 23:07:42< Gambit> I'll try to get you what you asked for tomorow.
20100319 23:07:46< Crab_> Gambit: and, 'getting a debugger' can be a good thing later - if, later, you'll find a different bug, it might be a lot easier for us to find it with stack trace attached. it depends whether you'll work 'on the edge' during 1.9 lifetime or stick to releases.
20100319 23:08:02< Gambit> Though it will take more turns with just an empty scenario.
20100319 23:08:16< Gambit> My test scenario was creating a massive array every turn.
20100319 23:08:44< Gambit> Alright I'll get that debugger tomorow.
20100319 23:08:52< Upthorn> Thought: could you provide the scenario for someone else to run?
20100319 23:09:16< Gambit> Yes that too.
20100319 23:09:37< Upthorn> science works better if the process is exactly the same in each trial.
20100319 23:11:09-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100319 23:11:22-!- meric [~Eric@124-168-169-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:13:13< Upthorn> Incidentally, I am a student trying to decide whether or not to apply to wesnoth for GSoC this summer (or apply to GSoC at all this year).
20100319 23:15:43-!- stikonas [~and@2002:4f84:b38b:b:226:9eff:fe0a:3e55] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:15:43-!- stikonas [~and@2002:4f84:b38b:b:226:9eff:fe0a:3e55] has quit [Changing host]
20100319 23:15:43-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:16:12< Upthorn> who should I want to be around to discuss about this?
20100319 23:16:30< Gambit> Depends on which project you want to work on I think.
20100319 23:16:36< Gambit> They all have different mentors afaik.
20100319 23:16:39< Upthorn> (incidentally, the ideas I'd be interested in doing are the new alliance system, and the persistent world storage)
20100319 23:16:48-!- meric [~Eric@124-168-169-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: meric]
20100319 23:17:00< Gambit> Boucman and Crab respectively then (I think).
20100319 23:17:19-!- pfunked_ [~4b8f586e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tllpsouyfqgaitls] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:18:05< Upthorn> I am having a great deal of difficulty ascertaining from the description of the persistent world storage idea what level of difficulty it involves
20100319 23:18:23< Gambit> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#People_to_bug_on_IRC
20100319 23:18:30< Upthorn> oh thanks
20100319 23:18:49< Upthorn> that section is so small my eyes skimmed right past it every time I looked through
20100319 23:19:15 * MikeJB points to Crab_ 
20100319 23:19:44< MikeJB> The whole idea could be very simple or very hard, depending on the approach and scope
20100319 23:20:00< Crab_> Upthorn: basically, for persistent world storage, there's two branches, 'single player' and 'multi player'
20100319 23:20:01< MikeJB> so only Crab_ will be able to reliably answer your question
20100319 23:20:15< Upthorn> And there he is
20100319 23:20:44< Crab_> for single player, we can try to think about something like a 'player profile', where it'll be possible to store information
20100319 23:21:09< Upthorn> Right, but multiplayer would presumably have to store information on a centralized server
20100319 23:21:31< Upthorn> right?
20100319 23:21:53< Crab_> yes, most of current ideas about multiplayer persistence involve a additional entity, which I call 'the gamemaster'. 
20100319 23:21:55< Gambit> No because you can play multiplayer games locally.
20100319 23:22:08< Crab_> but think of it not as 'centralized server', but as 'additional client'
20100319 23:22:21< Crab_> basically, every one should be able to host its own.
20100319 23:22:35< Upthorn> Right, that makes sense
20100319 23:23:00< Upthorn> the term "massively multiplayer" in the idea description is what led me to centralized server
20100319 23:23:34< MikeJB> I'd see it more of a MUD than a MMO
20100319 23:23:35< Upthorn> so that actions which occur in that context will affect all users thereafter
20100319 23:23:57< MikeJB> maybe a fancy MP campaign is the best way of thinking about it?
20100319 23:24:04< Crab_> well, nothing will prevent a group of players from hosting their own 'MP global campaign', and their 'gamemaster' for this campaign can be considered 'centralized' for them
20100319 23:24:05< MikeJB> basically, a scenario where your actions somehow matter.
20100319 23:24:21< Upthorn> Yeah, I understand this now
20100319 23:24:28< Crab_> MikeJB: basically, yes, we want to group MP games together.
20100319 23:24:31< MikeJB> As simple as "recall lists carry over between maps" and as fancy as a dynamic set of AI empires with preferences, locations, diplomacy, etc.
20100319 23:24:43< Upthorn> So the uncertainty I am having towards project difficulty stems from two general areas, I think
20100319 23:25:08< Upthorn> The first is that I am almost entirely unfamiliar with how WML currently works
20100319 23:25:28< MikeJB> it's a scripting language, kinda like XML.
20100319 23:25:48< MikeJB> it's a way to modify and create content without actually changing the source and recompiling (and without knowing C++)
20100319 23:26:04< MikeJB> Maybe 90% of the stuff you see in the game isn't "hard coded"
20100319 23:26:11< MikeJB> but rather "soft coded" through WML.
20100319 23:26:28< MikeJB> Unit stats, campaign events, even animations.
20100319 23:26:36< Upthorn> okay, so I do have some minor experience with WML from editing my savegames
20100319 23:26:40< Crab_> MikeJB: there's a problem with  just 'recall list carry over'
20100319 23:26:49 * Upthorn is not terribly good at strategy
20100319 23:26:58< MikeJB> Crab_: well, that's the simplest scenario I could imagine... :S
20100319 23:27:00< Crab_> MikeJB: it'll be linear - e.g., we'll need to 'base' each next game on the previous
20100319 23:27:14< MikeJB> not necessarily.
20100319 23:27:41< MikeJB> Player A plays Player B. Player C plays Player D. Next game, A plays F while C and D are still in on their game.
20100319 23:28:00< MikeJB> and while A is still playing F, B plays D because the C-D game ended.
20100319 23:28:03< Gambit> Nobody likes player E.
20100319 23:28:21< MikeJB> Well, I was too lazy to list the third pair of E-F :P
20100319 23:28:23< Crab_> MikeJB:after that how we can make C play A with both keeping their recall lists from previous games ?
20100319 23:28:30< MikeJB> E is a troll, anyway
20100319 23:28:49< MikeJB> Crab_: well, basically, your recall list is written once the game is over.
20100319 23:28:57< Upthorn> the second issue that would greatly influence the project's difficulty is that I have absolutely no experience with networking code of any sort, and haven't looked at wesnoth's internals yet to determine whether the necessary data transmission is already present in a genericized form, or if it would be necessary to refactor and/or implement new network communication stuff to handle transmission of the persistence data
20100319 23:29:22< Crab_>  a simplest use case: campaign where scenario 1 is MP, scenarios A2-A5 are for player 1 only  (so, he can play them offline), scenarios B2-B5 are for player 2 only (so, he can play them offline), and scenario 6 is for both players again, with them keeping recall lists from their previous play.
20100319 23:29:36< Upthorn> ... that line is much longer than I thought it would be, I hope it did not cut off.
20100319 23:29:46< MikeJB> to handle transmission of the persistence data
20100319 23:29:49< MikeJB> is where it eneded
20100319 23:29:51< Crab_> Upthorn: check the log if you're not sure if it was cut or not :)
20100319 23:30:05< Upthorn> MikeJB: that's the whole line then.
20100319 23:30:10< Upthorn> Crab_: oh. where's the log?
20100319 23:30:17< Upthorn> oh I see it in the topic now
20100319 23:30:24< Crab_> :)
20100319 23:30:40< MikeJB> yeah, checking the log is pretty useful.
20100319 23:32:02-!- gabm [~gabm@64.235.202.160] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:32:08< Crab_> Upthorn: we want all this persistence stuff to be usable without extensive modifications to wesnoth network client/server (since it's a separate project to rewrite them :))) )
20100319 23:32:10< Upthorn> I cannot find logs that include my nick, how frequently are they written out, or is the current log hidden in a subfolder?
20100319 23:32:31< Crab_> Upthorn: http://wesnoth.debian.net/%23wesnoth-dev-2010-03-19.log ?
20100319 23:32:41< MikeJB> Crab_: If this is doable, you may make me have to rethink one of my planned add-ons to make it much fancier...
20100319 23:32:47< Upthorn> I checked it twice!
20100319 23:33:00< Upthorn> oh wait
20100319 23:33:04< Upthorn> I forgot the -dev
20100319 23:33:08< MikeJB> Crab_: Basically, one giant "worldmap" that's an overview, you travel to locations, and those locations start scenarios...
20100319 23:33:11< Upthorn> embarrassing.
20100319 23:33:19< MikeJB> So players can be on the same scenario or different missions...
20100319 23:33:27< MikeJB> And the overarching storyline and worldmap links it
20100319 23:33:43< MikeJB> Crab_: sound like an interesting use case?
20100319 23:33:43< Gambit> Crab_: Would the MP games be able to access the Player Profile?
20100319 23:33:48< Gambit> Even if they can't write to it.
20100319 23:34:14< Upthorn> Crab_: yeah, I saw the network rewriting project. I guess that if I thought about that a bit more, it should have been enough to clarify that question for me.
20100319 23:34:54< Crab_> Gambit: I think that each bit of the player profile should have a 'policy' attached to it. e.g. 'it's internal for addon FOO', "it's for SP only", "it's normal - both for MP and SP"
20100319 23:35:28< Gambit> Even though that's hypothetical; you just made my day. :D
20100319 23:35:33< Gambit> Bye now. lol
20100319 23:35:53< Crab_> MikeJB: yes. it's interesting.
20100319 23:36:15< Crab_> MikeJB: basically, we want to make such campaigns 'easy to write'
20100319 23:36:39< Crab_> MikeJB: by providing a set of WML tags to describe the scenarios, the outcomes, the events and transitions, etc.
20100319 23:36:45-!- mpavel [~Pavel@cpc1-dund3-0-0-cust363.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:37:06< Crab_> MikeJB: and by making it possible for such a campaign to 'publish' games on a MP server
20100319 23:39:21< MikeJB> well, afaik, in 1.8, it would only be possible if the players shared a mission
20100319 23:39:40< MikeJB> so they go to worldmap, and then they'd have to be cooperative and go to the same mission together, and then go back to the worldmap together, etc.
20100319 23:40:03< MikeJB> there's no forking into different paths or even doing missions entirely independently... freely travelling from worldmap to missions and back
20100319 23:40:17< Crab_> MikeJB: yes, such  MP campaigns are possible in 1.8, without forking/independent missions/free-style travel/etc
20100319 23:40:32-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 23:41:03< MikeJB> so basically, the worldmap game overview mission/map selector would be shared between them, but they wouldn't necessarily be on the same scenario (at least not at the same time)
20100319 23:41:07< Crab_> we can also try to think about handling it in a more peer-to-peer approach, by avoiding a 'gamemaster' but adding code for wesnoth clients to exchange information before games to sort things out.. e.g., to do a 'merge' of two save files.
20100319 23:41:37< MikeJB> so they might run into each other on the worldmap, or they might go to it at different times, but it's the same universe, the same campaign
20100319 23:41:45-!- BWaters [~ben@CPE00222d540c10-CM00222d540c0d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100319 23:42:27< Gambit> Crab_: Assuming it gets to the point where MP could load SP "player profile" information, would a WML author be able to reference individual player's "player profile"s
20100319 23:42:42< Upthorn> I don't think peer-to-peer seems reasonable as an approach to this. How would you resolve issues where a campaign is chosen that both players have done the same mission, separately, and achieved different results?
20100319 23:43:17< Gambit> Example: $player1.HttT.total_gold_spent
20100319 23:43:23< Upthorn> (assuming multiple possible outcomes are possible for a given scenario, I seem to recall things that indicate this is)
20100319 23:43:46< Crab_> Gambit: I currently think of it as a tag to query a player for his variable, and store it into a 'standard' variable.
20100319 23:43:48< Upthorn> err wow that was really badly phrased
20100319 23:44:45< Gambit> so $player1_gold_spent_in_HttT=query player one for that variable ?
20100319 23:44:47< Upthorn> I seem to recall things that indicate that multiple possible outcomes are possible for a single scenario, that is, a single mission which can be completed in at least two different ways without ending the campaign
20100319 23:45:08< Crab_> Gambit: yes, I'm thinking about such approach.
20100319 23:45:32< Gambit> Upthorn: Each gamemaster would be running it's own campaign. So I don't think two players could achieve different results on the same scenario. If they're playing the same scenario, they're playing togethor.
20100319 23:46:05< Upthorn> Gambit: I am talking about the hypothetical peer-to-peer approach where there is no game master.
20100319 23:46:19-!- mpavel1 [~Pavel@cpc1-dund3-0-0-cust363.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100319 23:46:20< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, you're right, the issues with merging will be huge
20100319 23:46:23< MikeJB> well... I do think that the way I see it...
20100319 23:46:26< Gambit> Well then take my response and replace "each game master" with "each cluster of players"
20100319 23:46:35< MikeJB> if Player A is on a map for 30 min and Player B joins in, there's no issue
20100319 23:46:45< MikeJB> though I do think most campaigns will have the kind of overview map I have.
20100319 23:46:46< Upthorn> well imagine Player A did scenario 1 with player C
20100319 23:46:52< Upthorn> and player B did scenario 1 with player D
20100319 23:47:00< MikeJB> impossible?
20100319 23:47:03< Upthorn> and now player A and B are trying to play scenario 2 of the same campaign together
20100319 23:47:10< MikeJB> they won't be able to
20100319 23:47:12< Gambit> Players B and D would be in their own campaign at that point.
20100319 23:47:19< MikeJB> player A, B, C, and D will have to be in the same campaign.
20100319 23:47:39< Upthorn> so player A and B would have to start over from scenario 1 if they want to play the campaign together
20100319 23:47:43< MikeJB> yeah
20100319 23:47:54< Gambit> Or player B would jump in with no information from before?
20100319 23:47:54< MikeJB> or A could let B take over from what C did.
20100319 23:47:56< Crab_> Upthorn: or they can enter the campaign later, if the gamemaster allows it
20100319 23:48:14< Upthorn> The gamemaster approach seems much more flexible about allowing players to join in late, etc
20100319 23:48:16< MikeJB> so restarting, B taking over for C, and starting with no info are all possible.
20100319 23:48:29< MikeJB> *B starting with no info
20100319 23:48:48< Upthorn> I do not see how it could be resolved in a peer-to-peer approach unless A and B achieved the same results in Scenario 1 in their earlier separate campaigns
20100319 23:49:06< Gambit> The campaigns would be persistent but not retroactive.
20100319 23:49:09< Upthorn> so I would argue against taking that approach
20100319 23:49:27< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, gamemaster approach is much more flexible. it will even allow things like 'dynamic transferring of units from one scenario to another. e.g. where scenario A is 'the siege' and scenario 2 is 'reinforcements trying to get in'.
20100319 23:49:51< Upthorn> (that approach being peer-to-peer, with no gamemaster)
20100319 23:50:03< Gambit> And in the MMO style game you'd have a persistent "world state" where the players don't matter.
20100319 23:50:13< Crab_> Gambit: true
20100319 23:50:14-!- mpavel [~Pavel@cpc1-dund3-0-0-cust363.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100319 23:50:22< Gambit> player B's computer has player B's character stored in player b's profile.
20100319 23:50:32< Gambit> When he enters the world his character is spawned.
20100319 23:50:37< MikeJB> I'd imagine either two persistents...
20100319 23:50:41< Crab_> Gambit: or in gamemaster's profile :)
20100319 23:50:56< Upthorn> So, the persistent game data thing is starting to sound like it is within the realm of my capabilities
20100319 23:51:17< MikeJB> Either (1) a literal metascenario where you travel to other scenarios on a larger zoom-out, and might encounter others, etc. You join a scenario with someone else, and it's already in progress and you already have data from earlier to carry around.
20100319 23:51:31< MikeJB> or (2) just background recording of information that carries over.
20100319 23:51:31< Upthorn> the new alliance system definitely is, but I am worried that if I went for that project, it might end up with a similar situation as I wound up in with ScummVM last summer
20100319 23:51:33< Crab_> MikeJB: my play would be to use MP lobby as (1).
20100319 23:51:38< Crab_> s/play/plan
20100319 23:51:46< Gambit> If this ever got done and it was lay enough for me to understand and make use of it, the gamemaster would only be managing the world. Players would keep track of themselves.
20100319 23:51:57< MikeJB> Crab_: I would actually make a scenario for (1) instead of the lobby... Kind of like The High Seas
20100319 23:52:01< Upthorn> where I finished the entire project before the midterm and had a ton of issues getting anything else done for the rest of the period
20100319 23:52:12< MikeJB> As in, you travel around in an abstracted map, and you go to a certain hex to enter another scenario.
20100319 23:52:13< Crab_> MikeJB: the number of players in the scenario can be limited...
20100319 23:52:20< MikeJB> Yes.
20100319 23:52:34< MikeJB> That's not necessarily a Bad Thing.
20100319 23:52:43< Crab_> MikeJB: and then, imagine a MP lobby with a 'map' with clickable 'points'.
20100319 23:52:51< Gambit> Also will anything be done about the 9 player limit?
20100319 23:52:56< MikeJB> Yeah, that could work, I just don't see it working with what I have in mind.
20100319 23:53:02< Crab_> Gambit: i want to work around it somewhat.
20100319 23:53:07< MikeJB> I have a 3p MP campaign in mind.
20100319 23:53:09< Crab_> MikeJB: you click on a point,and the gamemaster spawns a game for you
20100319 23:53:19< MikeJB> The "zoom out" scenario metamap would simply allow divergent paths.
20100319 23:53:19< Crab_> MikeJB: a normal mp game :)
20100319 23:53:21< Gambit> Of course there's still the turn based limitation.
20100319 23:53:33< MikeJB> So click and point would kill the atmosphere of what I have in mind
20100319 23:53:39< Gambit> And we'll need an [event] name=player_join :P
20100319 23:53:55< Crab_> Gambit: of course. we'd need  many different events :)
20100319 23:54:11< MikeJB> Crab_: Not normal, because I did point out that what I had in mind is currently impossible, in that players can't play individual missions and then join back together on one metamap which they can leave/enter freely.
20100319 23:54:16-!- pfunked_ [~4b8f586e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tllpsouyfqgaitls] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20100319 23:54:44< MikeJB> Crab_: Just play The High Seas, and imagine the stuff at the raids bottom of the map that you teleport to at various map points were their own scenarios
20100319 23:54:48< Crab_> MikeJB: well, each 'individual mission' is a normal mp game.
20100319 23:55:02< MikeJB> Crab_: and then the metamap would be used for travel.
20100319 23:55:12< MikeJB> Best analogous way to explain it even though it's not exact.
20100319 23:55:18 * Gambit wishes Bob_The_Mighty will come back to take advantage of this awesomeness.
20100319 23:56:07< Crab_> MikeJB: the problem is that each scenario is not real-time,it's hard to travel quickly from a to b if there's 8 other players who do nothing
20100319 23:56:24< Crab_> MikeJB: a 'metamap scenario' has to be the point where you can 'gather and talk'
20100319 23:56:31< MikeJB> Crab_: Again, this wouldn't be massively multiplayer. There'd only be about 3.
20100319 23:56:47< Gambit> No gamemaster global chat plans?
20100319 23:56:50< MikeJB> You would just be able to interact with other people's "single player" and possibly team up if you'd like
20100319 23:56:56< Crab_> MikeJB: yes, for 3 player 'a metamap' will work.
20100319 23:57:04< Gambit> Player A says to player D "we're almost done here."
20100319 23:57:04< Crab_> Gambit: it will be possible to code it in plain wml :)
20100319 23:57:06< MikeJB> anyway, I'm just asking for multiple approaches.
20100319 23:57:17< MikeJB> metamap would work for most MP campaigns fine.
20100319 23:57:22< Gambit> Heh through text_input and message?
20100319 23:57:37< Gambit> That'd mean one scenario can send things to the other? :s
20100319 23:57:40< Crab_> Gambit: why not :) ? a gamemaster is a player, so he gets a turn
20100319 23:57:44< Crab_> Gambit: exactly.
20100319 23:58:01< Gambit> Meh I'd rather see WML that is capable of sending regular chat messages.
20100319 23:58:05< Gambit> instead of [message]
20100319 23:58:18< Crab_> Gambit: lua code can do it
20100319 23:58:21< Gambit> [message] target=chat
20100319 23:58:33< Crab_> Gambit: at least very similar to it.
20100319 23:58:39< Gambit> Ah so then someone would just have to make a pseudo WML tag in lua.
20100319 23:59:20< Gambit> semi related question can lua monitor chat messages?
20100319 23:59:56< Gambit> nevermind ^^^ that was retarded question.
--- Log closed Sat Mar 20 00:00:34 2010