--- Log opened Sat Mar 20 00:00:34 2010
20100320 00:00:47< Crab_> Gambit: but, actually, in my plans the gamemaster looks to other players as a 'group of players'. so, he can communicate with them using both wml and chat.
20100320 00:00:53< mpavel1> "you must have your unit on a keep to recruit" - i have no idea what that means?!?!
20100320 00:01:40< Crab_> Gambit: so, it'd be possible for a gamemaster to receive and send chat events
20100320 00:01:52< Gambit> So there'd be an event gateway for chatmessages afterall?
20100320 00:02:17< Gambit> Because then you could watch for "/global" and propogate those messages.
20100320 00:02:25< Crab_> Gambit: what's /global ?
20100320 00:02:32< Gambit> Just an example string.
20100320 00:02:47< Crab_> wesbot: hello
20100320 00:02:47< wesbot> Crab_: Aiya Crab_
20100320 00:02:53< Crab_> Gambit: something like this
20100320 00:02:55< Gambit> Messages that contain "/global" or "cheese" or "raccoonking" get the keyword cut out and sent to everyone.
20100320 00:02:57< Gambit> Yes.
20100320 00:03:32< Crab_> Gambit: note that we have another useful tool atm - it's gui2
20100320 00:03:36< Gambit> Except wesbot would have just pchatted everyone in the channel with "Crab says hello"
20100320 00:03:37< MikeJB> brb
20100320 00:03:54< Crab_> Gambit: so, if we need a custom dialog for doing something, it can be coded...
20100320 00:04:30< Crab_> Gambit: e.g. to avoid the need to type 'raccoonking', you just hit a keyword, and select what you need and where you need to send it from a gui.
20100320 00:05:09< Crab_> the main part is to push out as much as possible to WML-configurable part.
20100320 00:05:25< Gambit> Just so long as players can easily chat both amongst their scenario, and to the wider campaign at their choosing.
20100320 00:05:42< Crab_> exactly.
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20100320 00:07:45< Gambit> Maybe multiple checkboxes similar to "talk to team only"
20100320 00:07:49< Gambit> You select "channels"
20100320 00:08:04< Gambit> allies, enemies, global
20100320 00:08:25< Crab_> yes, a simple selector..
20100320 00:08:34< Crab_> where channels are wml defined...
20100320 00:08:47< Crab_> to allow scenario-specific channels in addition to 'normal' ones.
20100320 00:08:52< Gambit> ooooh I like that even better.
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20100320 00:10:56< Crab_> also, it would be cool if said game-master would be able to reload/amend it's config on the fly..
20100320 00:11:36< Gambit> If WML were capable of doing things on chat messages; That in combination with FAI could open the door to some sort of AI command interpereter.
20100320 00:12:20< Crab_> Gambit: note that, apart from chat, there's nothing that ai can do out of turn.
20100320 00:12:43< Gambit> commands would be stored
20100320 00:13:06< Gambit> well the last one anywho.
20100320 00:13:13< Crab_> Gambit: you can do so even now, by getting text from player
20100320 00:13:23< Gambit> I know.
20100320 00:13:44< Gambit> That's slighlty bugged though.
20100320 00:13:58< Crab_> Gambit: how ?
20100320 00:14:08< Gambit> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15060
20100320 00:14:24< Gambit> Just for long commands.
20100320 00:14:25< Crab_> Gambit: just another gui2 bug :)
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20100320 00:14:57< Gambit> But anyway this is getting off topic from what Upthorn needs help with. Sorry.
20100320 00:15:14< Crab_> Gambit: then, after getting a variable from a player, either modify ai using it, or leva it be. then, as LuaAI can use all the luaWML, e.g. wesnoth.get_variable, it can parse that input and go for it..
20100320 00:15:34 * Gambit needs to sit down and learn lua this summer.
20100320 00:15:46< Crab_> Gambit: well, that's ok, since it helps to think out about other aspects of the idea :)
20100320 00:16:40< Gambit> Crab_: Basically during the implementation of your one idea you're going to be sprinkling many unrelated golden rose petals across the engine :)
20100320 00:17:17< Gambit> Addons are going to *really* be awesome one or two years from now.
20100320 00:17:37< Crab_> Gambit: it's important to do the core first, and then answer with 'hey, you can do it in WML' to all other feature suggestions :)
20100320 00:19:06< Upthorn> I think I've already figured out the answers to most of my questions
20100320 00:19:10< Rookie> hey..anybody there?
20100320 00:19:20< Crab_> Gambit: and, there's a lot of issues that we need to solve before it all kicks in. rewriting (or just hacking) wesnoth network layer to allow multiple-connections to server is very important...
20100320 00:19:29< Upthorn> my only remaining concerns are real life stuff (I am probably going to be in summer classes this year, for instance)
20100320 00:19:49< Crab_> Upthorn: and how you'd want to contribute ?
20100320 00:20:38< Upthorn> err, as a GSoC student. Unless you mean like between patches, and a version control system
20100320 00:20:50< Crab_> Upthorn: e.g., 'what do you want to do, in more detail?'
20100320 00:20:57< Upthorn> oh
20100320 00:21:23< Crab_> Gambit: since 'multiple connections to wesnoth MP server' will allow our game master to spawn multiple games simultaneously, and the rest is quite easy... just bundle in a SQL db, a queue processor of sorts, a rule engine for processing WML events, and it's set...
20100320 00:21:52< Gambit> That simple huh?
20100320 00:22:02< Gambit> hahaha
20100320 00:22:41< Crab_> Gambit: well, I think that with some hacky workarounds it's possible to do a prototype quickly, if enough time is devoted to that...
20100320 00:24:11< Rookie> hey....i'm varnit..a cs student and a cs gamer both..i think u got the 2 of them right....can somebody tell me how to start with doing something for wesnoth???:D:D
20100320 00:24:16< CIA-53> ai0867 * r41639 /trunk/src/gamestatus.cpp: Initialize superclass
20100320 00:24:24< Upthorn> well, I was thinking that I would just handle the world persistence data -- saving and loading for single player, and all the gamemaster stuff for multiplayer (since I don't think that I could make it reasonably functional under a p2p model)
20100320 00:25:45< Upthorn> modifying the capabilities of the wesnoth server to allow multiple connections simultaneously I see as being a separate project with relevant functionality
20100320 00:25:59< Crab_> Rookie: install it and play :) or, get the source code, compile, and change it for the better :)
20100320 00:26:23< Rookie> ty bor
20100320 00:26:29< Rookie> *bro
20100320 00:26:51< Upthorn> but if I were to take a stab at it, I would not want to start doing so until after I'd gotten the world persistence actually working without that
20100320 00:27:09< Upthorn> Crab_: does that answer your question in enough detail?
20100320 00:27:33< Crab_> Upthorn: I'd love to see a prototype :)
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20100320 00:28:37< Upthorn> I don't think I will be likely to have time to actually start work on a prototype until after the summer of code period begins
20100320 00:28:51< Crab_> Upthorn: that's not good (
20100320 00:30:24< Crab_> Rookie: on http://bugs.wesnoth.org/ , you can find a list of issues/feature suggestions, and you can see if you can/want fix/implement anything from it. or, if you find a thing that is not good, and if you know how to change it for the better, you are welcome to propose/implement it.
20100320 00:30:25< Upthorn> I mean
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20100320 00:30:49< Upthorn> I will have time to look at the source and research how things work currently
20100320 00:31:23< Rookie> crasb: wo thanx ..i was jst going to ask what type of changes r recommended...:D:D
20100320 00:31:35< Upthorn> but I have classes until may 19
20100320 00:31:39< Rookie> *crab
20100320 00:32:05< Upthorn> so I am probably not going to be able to get a prototype working during the application period
20100320 00:32:10< Crab_> Rookie: there's also a forum for discussion about any crazy ideas  - http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewforum.php?f=12
20100320 00:32:53< Crab_> Upthorn: yes, that's understood. then, try to show your best during the application period.
20100320 00:33:05< Rookie> crab: thanx buddy im really lokking forward for doing something in the field
20100320 00:33:41< Rookie> bt i think i should play tha game first
20100320 00:33:46< Rookie> :D:D
20100320 00:33:55< Crab_> :) :)
20100320 00:35:20< Rookie> bt i dont hv any experience in game programming etc... i dont think that would be a problem..right??
20100320 00:36:17< Gambit> C++ for big stuff. simple WML for mods and addons.
20100320 00:36:37< Gambit> So that depends on what you want to do.
20100320 00:37:06< Crab_> Rookie: no,  game-specific code is only a small part of wesnoth
20100320 00:37:14< Rookie> ya im a pro in c++ ...or at least i think so...
20100320 00:37:23< Rookie> :D:D
20100320 00:37:28< Gambit> Well wouldn't that be "experience in game programming" :s
20100320 00:37:30< Crab_> Rookie: mostly, the code is passing various data structures around and messing with them in some way.
20100320 00:39:15< Rookie> crab:one more thing
20100320 00:40:06< Rookie> gaming experience is surely gonaaa help in devloping it ..right?
20100320 00:40:33< Crab_> depends on the task you want to take. for many things it is very good to have a feel for the game, to know it, to understand it, to love it ;)
20100320 00:41:42< Rookie> so is there any strategy maaking sort of task...i know im gud at that
20100320 00:42:11< Gambit> Question: Do you guys time the release of new stables (and therefore new development branches) with GSoC, or is that just coincidence?
20100320 00:42:33< MikeJB> iirwiir
20100320 00:42:36< Gambit> Three years running coincidence.
20100320 00:43:20< Gambit> I know that MikeJB, but GSoC always hits a fresh cycle.
20100320 00:43:42< Crab_> Gambit: well, the time for current release was largely determined by the state of MP lobby, and the impressive number of bugfixes that went into it, to make it quicker and stabler
20100320 00:43:47< MikeJB> If there is no scheduled roadmap with planned dates, then how can they time it with GSOC?
20100320 00:44:16< MikeJB> If anything 1.8 is at least a month late.
20100320 00:44:23< MikeJB> because there's been many more betas than "usual"
20100320 00:45:03< Gambit> So then it's just massive coincidence.
20100320 00:45:20< MikeJB> not really massive
20100320 00:45:25< MikeJB> it takes roughly a year to do the cycle
20100320 00:45:29< MikeJB> so it roughly comes out every spring
20100320 00:45:48< MikeJB> it's not a coincidence if the timing to do development happens to be about the same length each time
20100320 00:46:43< Crab_> Rookie: well, 'strategy making tasks' are not available 'by themselves', because it's hard to measure the results, and to plan any progress. but, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Lua_AI includes some 'strategy' tasks and parts.
20100320 00:46:45< MikeJB> if anything, timing release to give GSOC a "fresh" cycle means players have to wait 1 year to see GSOC in stable
20100320 00:46:49< MikeJB> so it might not even be ideal
20100320 00:47:58< Gambit> Well if it takes a whole year to create and perfectly debug something then it's perfect.
20100320 00:48:01< Rookie> crab: ty... 
20100320 00:48:48< MikeJB> a lot of projects have 6 month life
20100320 00:49:17< MikeJB> gnome, some distros, etc.
20100320 00:49:57< Rookie> crab: bye then... i am gonaa play the game and then i will ask if i need anything...ty again ..bbye
20100320 00:50:06< Crab_> bye :)
20100320 00:55:33< Gambit> 1.9 is going to be bada**.
20100320 00:56:28< MikeJB> why bada?
20100320 00:56:35< loonycyborg> badass?
20100320 00:57:39< MikeJB> I bet bada is something
20100320 00:57:51< MikeJB> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bada
20100320 00:57:55< MikeJB> a lot of stuff, actually
20100320 00:58:13< MikeJB> I'm glad Wesnoth 1.9 will be coming to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bada_%28operating_system%29
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20100320 00:59:18< Blarumyrran> MikeJB, it "does not allow input methods" though :o
20100320 01:00:02< fendrin> Ivanovic: around?
20100320 01:02:52< Gambit> Ha and the release schedule for 1.9 coincides with the phone's.
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20100320 01:05:21< Ivanovic> fendrin: not really, should be sleeping since about an hour...
20100320 01:06:14< fendrin> Ivanovic: I can make gsoc menthor
20100320 01:06:22< Ivanovic> great!
20100320 01:06:39< fendrin> I won't have much time during the next semester but I guess it can be done
20100320 01:07:18< Ivanovic> at least as "backup"
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20100320 01:07:46< Crab_> fendrin: great!
20100320 01:08:26< thespaceinvader> Ivanovic: just to check: I realised today that I'd forgotten to add the updated Cave Spider graphics beetlenaut made months ago - is there time to get them in before 1.8 if i do it this weekend?
20100320 01:08:40< Ivanovic> thespaceinvader: yes
20100320 01:08:58< thespaceinvader> col, thanks Ivanovic
20100320 01:09:00< thespaceinvader> *cool
20100320 01:12:24< Ivanovic> off to bed now, n8
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20100320 01:19:54< AI0867> fendrin: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29246
20100320 01:21:20< happygrue> fendrin: jb and I start LoW on 1.7.15 now if you want to lurk
20100320 01:21:37< fendrin> happygrue: Cool
20100320 01:24:41< fendrin> AI0867: Thank you.
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20100320 01:28:00< AI0867> fendrin: looks like I need to abandon my first attempt at updating your branch
20100320 01:28:23< fendrin> AI0867: Huh?
20100320 01:28:24< AI0867> deletion of src/pathfind/teleport.hpp was merged perfectly...
20100320 01:28:40< AI0867> fendrin: merging the changes in trunk into /branches/fendrin_editor
20100320 01:29:30< AI0867> I'll need to work commit-by-commit, unfortunately...
20100320 01:30:13< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  actually, now that I've been working with several of these, I'm convinced that for consistency's sake, the campaign image should "a portrait from the campaign (or a generic mainline portrait if no good campaign portrait is there), and nothing else.
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20100320 02:12:04< CIA-53> ai0867 * r41640 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (10 files in 7 dirs): Merge trunk into editor branch up to r41351
20100320 02:12:14< CIA-53> ai0867 * r41641 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (26 files in 5 dirs): Merge trunk into editor branch up to r41360
20100320 02:12:22< CIA-53> ai0867 * r41642 /branches/fendrin_editor/doc/manual/images/it/main-menu-1.5.11.jpg: Updated localized images for Italian.
20100320 02:14:34< AI0867> hmm, that one wasn't aggregated?
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20100320 02:19:04< CIA-53> ai0867 * r41643 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (555 files in 33 dirs): Merge trunk into editor branch up to r41397
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20100320 02:19:23< CIA-53> ai0867 * r41644 /branches/fendrin_editor/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Merge trunk into editor branch up to r41400
20100320 02:24:48< CIA-53> jetryl * r41645 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (22 files in 22 dirs): 
20100320 02:24:48< CIA-53> Standardized all campaigns on having 350x350px images as their campaign image,
20100320 02:24:48< CIA-53> and also being ONLY campaign portraits, never montaged/combined with other
20100320 02:24:48< CIA-53> portraits, always just one stand-alone portrait. Kitty, TSI and I all agreed
20100320 02:24:48< CIA-53> this looks much better than before. The sceptre of fire's image does get pushed
20100320 02:24:49< CIA-53> down by its text, but the image is an old ugly portrait anyways, so it's
20100320 02:24:50< CIA-53> considered a tolerable issue in order to get this standardization done.
20100320 02:26:24< happygrue> fendrin: some issues with scenario 2, we started with different gold amounts
20100320 02:27:07< happygrue> player 1 started with 188, player 2 with 196 (after both of us got no bonus from scenario 1) by the host's count, and 100 less than that for each by the other player's count
20100320 02:29:08< happygrue> (and none of those numbers is the minimum starting gold, which is what player 1 should have had?)
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20100320 02:51:56< fendrin> happygrue: uh
20100320 02:52:41< happygrue> fendrin: that is, I started with 188, jb saw me having 88, and we were OOS shortly
20100320 02:52:55< happygrue> but both of those numbers is bad, as I think I should have started with 100
20100320 02:53:03< happygrue> *are
20100320 02:54:08< fendrin> happygrue: yes, both kalenz and landar should start with 100 gold if there was no carryover.
20100320 02:55:08< fendrin> happygrue: I can't see anything wrong with the wml coding here. In fact there is no wml coding beside the starting gold attribute. Would you please fill a bug report for yogiHH?
20100320 02:55:57< happygrue> fendrin: is difficulty fixed on hard for coop?
20100320 02:56:04< happygrue> we didn't select any difficulty
20100320 02:56:24< fendrin> happygrue: Yes, it is. There is no easy way to let the players choice a difficult level in MP:
20100320 02:56:27< fendrin> .
20100320 02:57:07< Zarel> Hey, Wesnoth developers!
20100320 02:57:10< happygrue> ok, I'll try to file one tonight.
20100320 02:57:13< Zarel> Anyone a Git fan here?
20100320 02:58:14< Crab_> depends on what you're trying to do with it
20100320 03:19:07< shadowmaster> Git is cool, it doesn't need fans
20100320 03:19:45< Crab_> shadowmaster: but it has, for example http://twitter.com/rebastiality :)
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20100320 03:54:48 * Dun1031|Zen waves
20100320 03:55:03< Crab_> hi Dun1031|Zen
20100320 03:55:21< Dun1031|Zen> Hello Crab_, how are you?
20100320 03:55:47< Crab_> fine, although there's pretty late out here :) 
20100320 03:55:59< Crab_> (almost 5am, that is)
20100320 03:56:18< Dun1031|Zen> oh, nice. Its almost 11pm here
20100320 03:57:56< Dun1031|Zen> I am browsing through the GSoC projects on the site
20100320 03:59:29< Crab_> found anything that interests you ?
20100320 03:59:49< Dun1031|Zen> I have to say, I am impressed at the amount of information available
20100320 04:00:31< Dun1031|Zen> yes, I am very interested in the "Extend Wesnoth Lus AI Support" project
20100320 04:01:23 * Dun1031|Zen is going over the Coding Standards page
20100320 04:02:20< Crab_> that's good :) yes, the first step, probably, is to compile wesnoth, see the code, and get a feel of what the project is about. and play a bit, if you haven't done so before :)
20100320 04:02:39< Dun1031|Zen> I haven't, I am working on that now :)
20100320 04:02:59< Crab_> :) should be pretty interesting work
20100320 04:03:54< ancestral> What? Play Wesnoth before you edit the code? What a bummer.
20100320 04:04:14< Dun1031|Zen> hehe
20100320 04:04:19< ancestral> :-P
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20100320 04:04:57< Crab_> ancestral: http://xkcd.com/303/
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20100320 04:05:28< ancestral> Nice
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20100320 04:05:41< ancestral> I haven't kept up with xkcd recently
20100320 04:05:44< Dun1031|Zen> haha
20100320 04:05:56< Dun1031|Zen> I have it coming to my phone now
20100320 04:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 72 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100320 04:09:39< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: the second step, after you'd done with the first, would be to try something from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Lua_AI , or similar, to learn how wesnoth AIs can be written. Ping me (usually I'm here in the evenings-in-europe, 4pm-9pm for you) if you have any questions, or leave questions in the irc, i can read them from the log.
20100320 04:11:01< Dun1031|Zen> Crab_: thanks. I will do that. I am usually on during the week from 7:30 am to 10:30 pm (EST) with mild interruptions.
20100320 04:12:05< Crab_> to learn what we want to do with lua AI this summer, it is needed to try to write some scripts and see what is easy to do, and what is hard to do,and try make hard things easier
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20100320 04:13:13 * Dun1031|Zen nods
20100320 04:14:42< Dun1031|Zen> I think I will spend a good chunk of this weekend playing with it :)
20100320 04:14:48< Crab_> that's good :)
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20100320 04:16:18< Crab_> (we can discuss things in more detail later, when you'd say that you're ready)
20100320 04:16:32< Crab_> but if you're got any questions - ask them
20100320 04:16:45< Dun1031|Zen> sounds good. 
20100320 04:17:08 * Dun1031|Zen prods TortoiseSVN to go faster
20100320 04:18:17< Crab_> compiling on windows can be fun :)
20100320 04:18:48< Dun1031|Zen> ooo yay!
20100320 04:19:40 * Dun1031|Zen is reading the 9 page thread on it atm
20100320 04:19:41< Crab_> basically, there are two routes. MSVC or codeblocks (using gcc and other gnu tools)
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20100320 04:20:00 * fendrin doesn't understand why to bother with Windows and compilation. It's easier and faster to install a linux and do it with the right tools.
20100320 04:20:12< Dun1031|Zen> what version of MSVC us supported?
20100320 04:20:27< Dun1031|Zen> unless you are familiar with linux :P
20100320 04:20:35< Dun1031|Zen> arent familiar*
20100320 04:20:35< fendrin> No that is not needed.
20100320 04:20:36< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: 9-page thread works ok, too (with codeblocks) will need to fix a few issues along the way but it's pretty easy.
20100320 04:20:49< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: MSVC 9  (2008)
20100320 04:21:13< Dun1031|Zen> Crab_: cool deal. I will get it with one of the two methods then :)
20100320 04:21:48< fendrin> Dun1031|Zen: To do compilation and software development it's not necessary to have a deeper insight of linux.
20100320 04:21:53< Dun1031|Zen> my only *nix experience is with an old RISC 6000 that I have been scrapping little by little for years
20100320 04:22:04< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: you can get a tarball of all libraries at ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/msvc9/external.tar.gz , or you can follow the instructions in the readme file in projectfiles/VC9 for getting them
20100320 04:22:21< fendrin> Dun1031|Zen: Well, you are participating for gsoc? 
20100320 04:22:36< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: but you'll need to modify the project a bit, see https://gna.org/patch/?1509
20100320 04:22:39< Dun1031|Zen> fendrin: I would like to, yes. 
20100320 04:22:47< fendrin> Dun1031|Zen: Then you are a student?
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20100320 04:23:06< Dun1031|Zen> yes, though I do work a full time day job
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20100320 04:23:58< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: managing two full-time jobs can be hard to do (as gsoc is a full-time thing, too)
20100320 04:24:04< fendrin> Dun1031|Zen: I was told once that a student should have the abiltiy to adopt to different envirenments (like a different operating system) in a very short time.
20100320 04:24:36< Dun1031|Zen> fendrin: this is true and I am looking to use linux more in the future :)
20100320 04:24:38< fendrin> But it's not true for me as well. My hate against windows is just too great.
20100320 04:25:07< Dun1031|Zen> Crab_: true, though I do a lot of coding at work since I have a lot of down time
20100320 04:25:51< Dun1031|Zen> I am a systems administrator in a small bankruptcy office... it doesnt tend to get busy for long periods of time
20100320 04:25:59< shadowmaster> fendrin: why so much hatred? did Windows eat your family? ;p
20100320 04:26:04< Dun1031|Zen> lol
20100320 04:26:38< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: sometimes it's good to be a sysadmin :)
20100320 04:26:51< Dun1031|Zen> Crab_: so true!
20100320 04:26:52< Crab_> Dun1031|Zen: I was a sysadmin some years ago, too
20100320 04:27:10< Dun1031|Zen> It can be nice at times
20100320 04:28:53< fendrin> shadowmaster: Well, I had an Amiga during the 80s. When I switched to a microsoft based system all was hell. I have gained my love to the machine back when I switched to linux some time later.
20100320 04:31:56< MikeJB> You are a fortunate man.
20100320 04:32:06< MikeJB> I grew up on Win 95, 98, and ME.
20100320 04:32:13< MikeJB> I was an angry kid. ;)
20100320 04:32:14< Dun1031|Zen> ME?
20100320 04:32:18< MikeJB> Yes.
20100320 04:32:19 * Dun1031|Zen shivers
20100320 04:32:23< MikeJB> It was as bad as they say it was.
20100320 04:32:28< MikeJB> Highest blue screen per capita ratio.
20100320 04:32:32< MikeJB> Vista just has bad CPU usage.
20100320 04:32:44< Dun1031|Zen> I had a teacher with it. She never knew I could fix computers
20100320 04:33:07< Dun1031|Zen> ME's slogan was Why ME?
20100320 04:33:58< MikeJB> Actually, I didn't have ME for a long time.
20100320 04:34:09< MikeJB> My dad "upgraded" to Win 2000, aka. an operating system that was released a year before ME
20100320 04:34:34< Dun1031|Zen> lol. I stuck with 98 through the ME era
20100320 04:34:57< fendrin> I switched to linux after 98 second release.
20100320 04:35:11< MikeJB> Imo, XP is the most solid Windows release. That's why people are still stuck on it.
20100320 04:35:29< Dun1031|Zen> Yea, I am sad to see its support days numbered
20100320 04:35:40< MikeJB> 7 is actually *less* efficient than Vista in some resource areas...
20100320 04:35:47< MikeJB> Which is funny, because it's supposed to be a slim Vista.
20100320 04:36:26< MikeJB> Tbh, Linux is finally getting to the point in the past few years where I can call its overall experience better than XP... It's always been better than Vista.
20100320 04:36:40< MikeJB> At least, imo. I dualboot so I can tell the frustrations. :S
20100320 04:38:13< Dun1031|Zen> Its just a matter of taking the time to make myself use linux. It is always easier to use what you know
20100320 04:38:28< MikeJB> Yeah, but there are some areas really easy with linux... like the centralized repository for updating/downloading.
20100320 04:38:37< MikeJB> Instead of just Microsoft-branded stuff
20100320 04:39:02< MikeJB> I have high-hopes for Google though.
20100320 04:39:09< shadowmaster> MikeJB: agreed about XP, can't agree wi[B[B[B/37
20100320 04:39:33< Dun1031|Zen> true, but when you have 5 windows computers its hard to look at my linux box and say "Yea, ill use you"
20100320 04:40:00< MikeJB> The only reason Windows dominates is that it was cheaper and everwyhere... Apple doesn't stand a chance to be everywhere with only one manufacturer and > $1000... Even if it offers a better experience to most people (those with 0 computer knowledge)
20100320 04:40:19< MikeJB> So honestly, I believe Google is the only company that can beat Microsoft at its own game.
20100320 04:40:23< MikeJB> Basically, Google is karma.
20100320 04:40:25< shadowmaster> MikeJB: ignore that message. I had removed it from the input line but I got raw down keypresses sent instead :/
20100320 04:40:27< Dun1031|Zen> lol
20100320 04:40:48< MikeJB> Microsoft released IE for free and bundled it to kill an industry of companies who sold web browsers.
20100320 04:41:07< MikeJB> Google can release operating systems for free and bundle it with its web services to kill an industry of companies who sell operating systems...
20100320 04:41:10< MikeJB> Oh wait, there's only one.
20100320 04:41:14< Upthorn> MikeJB: apple set that trap for itself when it didn't allow the OS to be sold separate from the hardware
20100320 04:41:32< Upthorn> I also wouldn't look to Chrome to kill the Windows beast
20100320 04:41:38< MikeJB> Upthorn: Actually, it did for a while. Steve Jobs, when he cleaned up the company, ended that. And it actually was a good decision to control a niche and the full experience.
20100320 04:41:49< MikeJB> And no, I wouldn't look at Chrome to kill Windows.
20100320 04:41:56< MikeJB> That's why I said "Google"
20100320 04:42:05< MikeJB> Honestly, I bet Google will make its play in the next 10 years.
20100320 04:42:12< MikeJB> It's already made its play on Microsoft's #2 cash cow, Office.
20100320 04:42:13< Upthorn> I don't believe google has any other designs on operating systems at the moment
20100320 04:42:33< MikeJB> Meh, I see Chrome OS as a distraction. I bet Android will just be upscaled further and further.
20100320 04:42:35< Dun1031|Zen> Chrome OS is their first foray
20100320 04:42:38< MikeJB> First phones, then tablets, and now rumored TVs
20100320 04:42:48< Dun1031|Zen> next cars!
20100320 04:42:59< MikeJB> If Google has a desktop OS 10 years from now, it'll be a flavor of Android upscaled.
20100320 04:43:16< Upthorn> That'd be Chrome
20100320 04:43:20< MikeJB> No.
20100320 04:43:31< Upthorn> yes. Their longterm plans are to merge chrome and android
20100320 04:43:32< MikeJB> Chrome and Android are totally separate OSes and projects.
20100320 04:43:37< MikeJB> Longterm.
20100320 04:43:41< Upthorn> I read an interview about it a couple months back
20100320 04:43:56< MikeJB> I'll still call it "Android" 'cause that's the one getting all the hype.
20100320 04:44:18< MikeJB> But yeah, honestly, I think Google can out Microsoft Microsoft in terms of ruthless business tactics.
20100320 04:44:27< Upthorn> that is like calling pepsi coke because coke is advertised better
20100320 04:44:42< shadowmaster> um, "What Windows are you using?"
20100320 04:44:58< MikeJB> Upthorn: I don't think you understand.
20100320 04:45:04< MikeJB> They'll probably use the name "Android" if they merged.
20100320 04:45:08< shadowmaster> it's pretty common for regular joes here where I live to call any OS "windows"
20100320 04:45:12< Upthorn> I doubt it, actually.
20100320 04:45:15< MikeJB> Because Android is in phones, tablets, TVs, cars.
20100320 04:45:22< MikeJB> Why the hell not use a brand that people identify with?
20100320 04:45:35< MikeJB> That'd be like calling the GMail client on Android "Toast"
20100320 04:45:38< MikeJB> Just because.
20100320 04:45:59< Dun1031|Zen> mm Toast.....
20100320 04:46:15< MikeJB> In other words, if Chrome merges with Android, Android'll get the name and Chrome will get the browser :P
20100320 04:46:19< Upthorn> Because the average user doesn't know or care what the hell their phone, TV, or car uses (and also doesn't have a tablet), but is more likely to pay attention to what runs on their computer
20100320 04:46:30< MikeJB> ...
20100320 04:46:45< MikeJB> First of all, you're talking on IRC. About a fairly obscure open source game.
20100320 04:46:52< MikeJB> None of us have the right to speak for the average user.
20100320 04:47:02< Dun1031|Zen> lol
20100320 04:47:02< Upthorn> well, you felt entitled to
20100320 04:47:13< MikeJB> I was speaking for Google marketing... :P
20100320 04:47:19< Upthorn> and I was correcting your fallacious assumption that the average user is operating from an informed position
20100320 04:47:28< MikeJB> 23:44:47 < shadowmaster> um, "What Windows are you using?"
20100320 04:47:34< Upthorn> which was the basis for your decision on behalf of google marketing
20100320 04:47:53< MikeJB> But here's the fallacious assumption on your part:
20100320 04:48:01< MikeJB> The average user isn't operating from an informed position.
20100320 04:48:12< MikeJB> So they won't really know about "Chrome"
20100320 04:48:15< Upthorn> err
20100320 04:48:35< MikeJB> So they could call it "GOOGLE Asdfasdfasdfasdf... Oh, and also GOOGLE" and people wouldn't care
20100320 04:48:39< MikeJB> Only the tech blogs would
20100320 04:48:51< MikeJB> There's no advantage in calling it "Chrome" over "Android... for Desktops"
20100320 04:48:52< Upthorn> no, they will know about chrome because it is a browser. A user is more likely to know about firefox than android, for instance
20100320 04:48:57< MikeJB> Uh.
20100320 04:48:58 * Dun1031|Zen refrains from commenting about average users
20100320 04:49:05< MikeJB> There's a Youtube video from Google
20100320 04:49:11< Upthorn> but will have no idea what platform their phone is operating on
20100320 04:49:11< MikeJB> about how the average person doesn't know wth a browser is
20100320 04:49:14 * Espreon LOLs
20100320 04:49:20< MikeJB> I remember seeing it a few weeks ago
20100320 04:49:27< MikeJB> A "man on the street" in Jaywalking style
20100320 04:49:33< ancestral> Who is an average person?
20100320 04:49:37< Upthorn> MikeJB: I didn't say they do. I just said they are more likely to know what a browser is than what a phone operating system is
20100320 04:49:45< MikeJB> Idk about that.
20100320 04:49:56< Upthorn> let me explain
20100320 04:49:59< Upthorn> I have grandparents
20100320 04:50:01< MikeJB> More people probably will be using Android in 2 years than Chrome in 2 years. Especially if the iPhone remains an AT&T exclusive
20100320 04:50:08< Upthorn> they understand the concept of firefox
20100320 04:50:10< Upthorn> but not android
20100320 04:50:15< MikeJB> Android is basically the best strategy for Verizon, T-Mobile, and Sprint.
20100320 04:50:38< Upthorn> android has a ton broader deployment
20100320 04:50:43< MikeJB> Right.
20100320 04:50:44< Upthorn> but it is in an invisible position
20100320 04:50:48< MikeJB> No.
20100320 04:50:51< Upthorn> yes.
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20100320 04:50:57< MikeJB> Maybe semi-invisible.
20100320 04:51:01< Upthorn> because people don't think about what their phone runs
20100320 04:51:07< Upthorn> or what runs their phone
20100320 04:51:20< MikeJB> I bet you DROID users could rather easily make the connection between "DROID" and "Android"
20100320 04:51:31< MikeJB> Verizon actually makes most of their Android phones branded "DROID"
20100320 04:51:37< MikeJB> "DROID" and "DROID Eris"
20100320 04:52:01< MikeJB> The "DROID" is one of the most popular high end phones on the most popular US carrier.
20100320 04:52:05< MikeJB> You underestimate people.
20100320 04:52:05< Upthorn> Perhaps, but I'd bet they're reaction is more likely to be
20100320 04:52:07< Dun1031|Zen> actually when I say "Its an android phone" they say "Oh! The Droid is soo coool"
20100320 04:52:41< Upthorn> right, but when you say "it's an android car" I bet you don't get that reaction
20100320 04:52:43< MikeJB> Upthorn: Besides, if Google made a desktop OS it would be just as transparent about Android...
20100320 04:52:53< MikeJB> People will only care about the "GOOGLE" branding, nothing else.
20100320 04:52:59< Dun1031|Zen> well no, I dont carry a car in my pocket...
20100320 04:53:11< MikeJB> So again, they could call it "Android", "Chrome", or "Ceiling Cat"
20100320 04:53:15< MikeJB> And it'd probably sell the same amount.
20100320 04:53:29< MikeJB> So how can we even dare speculate about a Google Desktop OS 10 years from now and its name?
20100320 04:53:34< Espreon> I'd rather purchase something called "Tacgnol"...
20100320 04:53:36< Upthorn> When you start talking about your computer running Android, your reaction is probably going to be "huh, I wonder if that has something to do with my phone" at best
20100320 04:53:49< Upthorn> whereas if you talk about your computer running chrome they'll be like
20100320 04:53:57< Upthorn> "Oh is that the thing with those ads on TV?"
20100320 04:53:58< MikeJB> Upthorn: But my point is that you're undermining your own argument.
20100320 04:54:10< MikeJB> The stupid users are going to be stupid, regardless of the name or type.
20100320 04:54:14< Upthorn> right
20100320 04:54:25< MikeJB> As long as Google pays enough money to advertize it, and makes "GOOGLE" as big as the name, it'll sell
20100320 04:54:27< Upthorn> but they will be more likely to know about the thing that has ads for it on TV
20100320 04:54:32< MikeJB> Right.
20100320 04:54:37< MikeJB> So there's no advantage to calling it "Chrome"
20100320 04:54:39< Upthorn> than they are to know about the thing that underpins it
20100320 04:54:42< Upthorn> uh
20100320 04:54:44< Upthorn> Chrome
20100320 04:54:48< Upthorn> has ads for it on TV
20100320 04:54:54< Upthorn> this is perhaps a point you are missing.
20100320 04:54:57< MikeJB> I've never seen any.
20100320 04:55:03< MikeJB> Except for on YouTube.
20100320 04:55:13< MikeJB> It's a rather weak brand.
20100320 04:55:14< Upthorn> I see them about twice a week when I watch TV
20100320 04:55:26< Upthorn> usually it's interrupting the daily show
20100320 04:55:35< MikeJB> Well, isn't that interesting, because I've never seen any.
20100320 04:55:47< MikeJB> So generalizing isn't very helpful here, eh?
20100320 04:56:12< Upthorn> Have you seen any ads for Android?
20100320 04:56:22< MikeJB> I've seen 1,000,001 ads for the DROID
20100320 04:56:22< Blueblaze> #wesnoth for this crap
20100320 04:56:25< Upthorn> I have seen ads for products which use it
20100320 04:56:41< MikeJB> Blueblaze: I didn't expect to get caught in a circular argument.
20100320 04:57:07< MikeJB> That has absolutely no value, since we're speculating over a hypothetical name to a hypothetical Windows-killer hypothetically run by Google in 2020
20100320 04:57:09< Upthorn> Neither did I.
20100320 04:57:48< Upthorn> But you were the one who started with ridiculous speculation (:p)
20100320 04:57:57< Upthorn> Subject is dropped.
20100320 04:58:53< MikeJB> I started the speculation, you started the name discussion, we both perpetuated it. Equally guilty. :P
20100320 04:59:02< MikeJB> And yeah, let's now talk about Wesnoth.
20100320 05:00:48< MikeJB> So 1.8's almost done, eh?
20100320 05:00:57< MikeJB> damn, g2g
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20100320 06:51:03< haoyu> hi, anyone around?
20100320 06:52:33< ancestral> Around what? :-P
20100320 06:53:10< fendrin> Cocain all around my brain.
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20100320 07:14:21< haoyu> eh, just curious, why you have a lua-binding written from scratch instead of using something like luabind?
20100320 07:15:13 * haoyu just got his first wesnoth build working
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20100320 07:22:27< fendrin> haoyu: Have we?
20100320 07:23:02< haoyu> em? I think so..
20100320 07:23:04< fendrin> haoyu: Silene was the developer that implemented the lua support. He can surely answer your question.
20100320 07:23:47< fendrin> haoyu: The lua isn't implemented by ourselves, it comes out of a library.
20100320 07:24:50< haoyu> oh, yeah. I know the lua interpreter itself is a outside lib
20100320 07:25:23< haoyu> I mean the interface for wesnoth to talk with Lua - there's some tools can automatically generate these code
20100320 07:26:03< haoyu> - of course, the generated code has less quality than hand-written code, but may save some labor :p
20100320 07:27:09< fendrin> I see.
20100320 07:27:17< fendrin> It's a good question.
20100320 07:27:30< fendrin> Let's ask silene when he is around. 
20100320 07:27:53< fendrin> haoyu: Are you a gsoc student?
20100320 07:28:04< haoyu> fendrin, em, yes
20100320 07:28:40< fendrin> What is your project?
20100320 07:29:13< haoyu> I'm looking into the lua AI stuff
20100320 07:29:23< fendrin> ah
20100320 07:29:44< fendrin> That is surely a interresting one.
20100320 07:31:02< haoyu> yeah, surely :)
20100320 07:32:13< Upthorn> I think a better question is for the Lua interpreter developers, why they decided to use the stack metaphor in all contexts where Lua is interfacing with C
20100320 07:34:34< haoyu> maybe the Lua interpreter has its own stack
20100320 07:35:08< haoyu> so C is a kind of assembly for lua
20100320 07:35:52< Upthorn> It's possible, but it still seems mystifying that this was the best interface paradigm that they could come up with.
20100320 07:36:30< Upthorn> But I'm just griping from my personal experience with the system, and it probably doesn't really belong here.
20100320 07:37:00< haoyu> there's actually other tools provide a better interface, eg. luabind
20100320 07:39:00< Upthorn> I know, but they are third-party, and wouldn't be useful if not for the poor design of the direct interface. And they aren't always really an option (when, for instance, someone else has already gone ahead and added Lua bindings just using the standard Lua API funcs)
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20100320 07:40:44< Upthorn> though that sort of suggests a possible student proposal -- converting the wesnoth Lua bindings to use a better interface (e.g. luabind)
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20100320 08:25:50< mordante> servus
20100320 08:26:07-!- Mythological_ is now known as Mythological
20100320 08:29:04< fendrin> hi mordante
20100320 08:29:16< mordante> hi fendrin 
20100320 08:35:46< mordante> Crab_ regarding bug 15060, can you reproduce it on Windows?
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20100320 09:00:38< fendrin> mordante: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561580
20100320 09:01:42< fendrin> The Traveler's Ring can only loose it's power if the role is lost during an update.
20100320 09:02:05< fendrin> s/update/unit upgrade
20100320 09:02:41< fendrin> Meaning the [role]
20100320 09:10:15< mordante> fendrin, ok, could you reply that to the debian bug as well?
20100320 09:10:36< fendrin> ?
20100320 09:11:01< fendrin> Do you think that this information is of value for the debian people?
20100320 09:11:27< fendrin> It's more like I should fill a bug report in our bug tracker if the problem still exists.
20100320 09:12:40< mordante> it is interesting for the original poster of the bug report
20100320 09:13:01< fendrin> Are you sure he is still alive? That bug was for 1.4
20100320 09:16:19< fendrin> mordante: Okay, the ring thing isn't reproducable in 1.7 anymore. Bug fixed :-)
20100320 09:19:50< mordante> nice :-)
20100320 09:20:52< fendrin> Whoever wrote the UtBS code needs elektroshocks.
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20100320 09:21:41< mordante> who wrote it or who rewrote it? ;-)
20100320 09:21:54< fendrin> svn blame
20100320 09:22:17< fendrin> But I never managed to target it against lines. The syntax is strange.
20100320 09:23:16< mordante> it's possible with git-svn ;-)
20100320 09:25:17< fendrin> Hell, there is a battle turn counter that must match a randomized variable. That variable is read in another event to trigger the assassin.
20100320 09:26:16< fendrin> That file has 3500 lines. That is more than the whole code of LoW. Well, maybe not.
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20100320 09:30:02< fendrin> The code looks fine. Well, it looks correct. Well no, it is too complicated to spot errors. 
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20100320 10:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 73 bugs, 256 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100320 10:42:46< Ivanovic> moin
20100320 10:46:10< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
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20100320 11:00:12< Ivanovic> and yes, at the logs you do see that it is summer of code
20100320 11:00:20< Ivanovic> *lots* of backlog to skip
20100320 11:00:21< Ivanovic> ;)
20100320 11:02:20< timotei21> hello ivanovic:D
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20100320 11:35:01< Darkas> hi
20100320 11:36:15< mordante> hi Darkas 
20100320 11:36:42< Darkas> I'm interested in participating in the Google Summer of Code
20100320 11:38:15< mordante> nice you read our summer of code wiki page?
20100320 11:38:21< Darkas> I have already looked through the wiki page, and the ideas I'd be interested in are the alliance system or lua support
20100320 11:38:37< Darkas> yeah ;)
20100320 11:39:05< mordante> boucman knows most about the alliance system (it's his idea)
20100320 11:39:20< Darkas> ok
20100320 11:39:46< mordante> and for lua support best ask Crab_ if you want more details
20100320 11:40:15< mordante> of course you can also ask them here and see whether somebody else knows the answers
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20100320 11:40:56< Darkas> so where do I find them? in the forums?
20100320 11:44:01< mordante> no they often visit here
20100320 11:44:21< mordante> in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they show up any minute ;-)
20100320 11:44:23< Darkas> ok, then I'll wait
20100320 11:44:34< Darkas> :)
20100320 11:45:02< mordante> but this chan is logged, so you can ask they can read your questions even if you're away
20100320 11:45:45< mordante> just make sure you mention their names, not everybody reads the entire log, but most at least grep for their names
20100320 11:47:16< Darkas> that's great, thanks for the information
20100320 11:48:57< orfest> Crab_: uploader bug is reproducable, SDLNet_ResolveHost causes a long timeout. Starting working :)
20100320 11:57:13< Ivanovic> orfest: cool!
20100320 12:07:11-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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20100320 12:09:43< Crab_> orfest: that's good
20100320 12:10:56< Crab_> Darkas: if you want to talk with me I have a few minutes now, and will be for longer either in +11 hours or in +21 hours from now.
20100320 12:11:57< Darkas> ok
20100320 12:12:55< Darkas> Crab_, what would be the job with the lua ai support, the functions are already written but only have to be exposed to lua?
20100320 12:13:54< Darkas> because I think that wouldn't be much...?
20100320 12:15:14< Crab_> Darkas: the lua itself is a powerful language, but to do anything ai-related, we need to be able to get the right data about the game state and the game rules. there is 'base' data ( see src/ai/game_info.hpp ) which we need to get (we already can get some of the info from existing lua bindings for WML)
20100320 12:16:31< Crab_> Darkas: and there's also 'derived' data,like movement maps - srcdst maps like (unit A can move to A1,A2,A3, unit B can move to B1,B2,...) and dstsrc maps (to A we can move units A,C,E, to B we can move units D,F,G...)
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20100320 12:17:04< Crab_> Darkas: such data sometimes is hard to generate (for example,attack prediction by itself is ~900 lines of C++ code - we don't want to replicate the logic in lua
20100320 12:17:34< Darkas> Crab_, so the job would be providing that data in lua?
20100320 12:18:36< Darkas> by using the existing c++ functions of course
20100320 12:18:49< Crab_> Darkas: yes. to quote from alpha centauri, 
20100320 12:18:50< Crab_> "Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken. "
20100320 12:19:16< Crab_> so, we firstly want to expose existing c++ things to lua
20100320 12:19:50< Crab_> then, we want to build a lua-based 'wesnoth lua ai standard library', a library of functions useful to ai developer
20100320 12:21:01< Crab_> then, we want to build a library of high-level functions which will be directly usable by scenario developer, with the level of complexity like 'drop this 1-line macro here, set this unit variable there, and voila - the unit is now controlled by lua ai according to your wishes'
20100320 12:21:18< Crab_> example of such behavior are 'patrol', 'retreat', and 'guard' behaviors
20100320 12:22:03< Darkas> ok, that sounds very interesting
20100320 12:22:22< Crab_> then, we want to improve the ai directly, areas like recruiting with multiple leaders, actually *defending* something, handling concepts like leadership,skirmish, illuminate, and other, even, created-from-WML, concepts
20100320 12:22:37< Darkas> the first step should actually be pretty easy for me, as I'm already experienced in lua ;)
20100320 12:23:01< Crab_> then, we want to make sure that multiple ais can coordinate between themselves, and stick to a certain strategy in battle,as determined by situation and whims of scenario creator
20100320 12:23:21< Crab_> yes, the first steps are easier than last, and their purpose is to make last steps easier to code.
20100320 12:23:51< Darkas> but the last steps are the really interesting ones
20100320 12:25:13< Crab_> right :) so, try to do the interesting things, get a concept code up and running. and you'd certainly notice 'ok, if I had this, this, and this from c++ code, I'd be easier to do' - then modify the c++ code to expose such things, and go ahead :)
20100320 12:26:47< Darkas> yeah, that's what beginners do, and where I often failed a few years ago ;)
20100320 12:27:28< Crab_> Darkas: and, what do you want to do ?
20100320 12:29:16< Darkas> I'd do it like you said, that's the logical order
20100320 12:29:57< Darkas> and the ai currently sounds much more interesting than the alliance system
20100320 12:30:18< Crab_> note that actually there's a lot of things that we already can do, thanks to silene's efforts (see src/scripting/lua.cpp )
20100320 12:31:07< Crab_> and I've already exposed move/attack/recruit/recall routines to the ai ( data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg )
20100320 12:31:13< Darkas> I'll have a look at it, but I don't have the code checked out yet
20100320 12:31:39< Crab_> ok.I got to go, good luck to you. I'll read the logs, of course.
20100320 12:31:48< Darkas> ok, thanks
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20100320 12:52:50< teaser> mordante: I tried testing with trunk (41645) but I get an error, will update and try again later (and if needed report the bug)
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20100320 12:59:33< teaser> hm, seems I'm already at the head ... the error I get is at http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/trvLeSW3 (<- ilor, mordante ??)
20100320 13:06:53< haoyu> Darkas, I'm also interested in the lua AI project
20100320 13:08:15-!- orfest [~kvirc@43.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has quit [Quit: Changing server...]
20100320 13:08:18< loonycyborg> haoyu: Are you the person who worked on boost.python's python3 support, right?
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20100320 13:08:40< haoyu> loonycyborg, em, yes :)
20100320 13:12:51< loonycyborg> I asked silene why he didn't use luabind some time ago. iirc he said that it won't be necessary because he considered wesnoth's use of it simple enough to stick with C api.
20100320 13:13:35< ilor> off for today, will be around sunday evening
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20100320 13:16:17< Ivanovic> i am off till the evening, too
20100320 13:16:18< Ivanovic> cu
20100320 13:18:55< haoyu> loonycyborg, i see. thanks
20100320 13:41:47< mordante> teaser, I just tested head and no problem, could you also test with head?
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20100320 14:10:47< haoyu> so how to run the lua ai test scenarios, such as "scenario-lua-ai.cfg"?
20100320 14:10:58< haoyu> is that ./wesnoth --test ?
20100320 14:11:29< haoyu> is loads a test scenario but seems need manual interaction?
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20100320 15:05:02< orfest> what is the desired behaviour of statistics uploader? It should be uploading at the beginning and at the end of a game? If the game is being finished, should it wait until uploading is finished? And what if the application is terminating?
20100320 15:12:53< mordante> orfest, why do you ask? You want to work on that part of the code?
20100320 15:13:12< orfest> mordante: yes, I'm fixing the statistics uploader
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20100320 15:16:32< Gambit> I think I found a gui bug.
20100320 15:16:40< Gambit> The inspect window appears to have a maximum length.
20100320 15:20:09< mordante> orfest, ok cool which issue?
20100320 15:20:19< mordante> Gambit, you mean a really long text?
20100320 15:20:26< Gambit> I mean a massive array
20100320 15:20:33< Gambit> http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt107/Grickit/maxlength.jpg
20100320 15:21:31< orfest> mordante: there is a problem that terminating application can wait for a long timeout while statistics uploader tryes to connect to an unavailable server
20100320 15:21:58< Gambit> I have several a map and several units stored in different levels of the same array.
20100320 15:22:06< orfest> mordante: so, I want to make sure about the expected behaviour of the uploader
20100320 15:22:07< Gambit> And later on most of those units will have maps inside them.
20100320 15:22:08< mordante> Gambit, for the gui it's a long text
20100320 15:22:42< mordante> Gambit, the problem is known, the SDL library can create surfaces with a maximum height/width of 32K pixels
20100320 15:23:11< mordante> the widget library creates a surface for the entire height, which doesn't work for overly sized items
20100320 15:23:36< Gambit> So the problem lies in third party tech?
20100320 15:23:51< mordante> the bug is already reported, but low priority since it only happens in during debugging
20100320 15:24:32< mordante> Gambit, jein it's a known limitation there and I never expected items that big so the code takes a naïve approach to the problem
20100320 15:24:49< mordante> so it could be fixed, by using a different algorithm
20100320 15:27:57< mordante> orfest, I don't know what the exact behaviour is, but if in order to fix the bug the behaviour of when to upload needs to change I don't think that will be a big problem
20100320 15:28:49< mordante> orfest, do you also want to work on the boost asio implementation for the summer of code?
20100320 15:29:11< orfest> mordante: yes, I'm fixing the uploader using boost::asio also
20100320 15:30:24< mordante> interesting, do you have experience with boost asio?
20100320 15:31:39< orfest> mordante: just 1 academic project, just a toy server :)
20100320 15:33:01< mordante> ok
20100320 15:34:55< mordante> does your solution also involve boost thread or do you keep the threading code already there?
20100320 15:36:01< orfest> mordante: in the uploader I was going to use the same threading mechanism, not boost::thread
20100320 15:36:46< mordante> ok good
20100320 15:39:32-!- thespaceinvader [~chatzilla@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100320 15:44:29< mordante> hi thespaceinvader 
20100320 15:44:52< mordante> thespaceinvader, did you get a PM regarding a new progress bar?
20100320 15:45:00< thespaceinvader> not that I recall, no
20100320 15:48:07< thespaceinvader> mordante: why do you ask?
20100320 15:48:40< mordante> I was searching the tread, but here it is http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29008
20100320 15:50:11< thespaceinvader> seems like a good idea to me, but it's not something i could do quickly or easily myself
20100320 15:50:52< mordante> thespaceinvader, well I was hoping that you could give some critic regarding the proposed image
20100320 15:51:09< mordante> I think it looks promising, but needs work
20100320 15:51:26< thespaceinvader> eh, it looks like a loading bar to me
20100320 15:51:41< thespaceinvader> sorry, i recognise that;s not really helpful, but it;s the best i can do
20100320 15:51:48< thespaceinvader> it;s why i;ve not really commented on it before
20100320 15:52:06< thespaceinvader> GUI design is one of the many areas i cannot exactly claim great knowledge of
20100320 15:52:29< mordante> do you think it looks good enough to add or should the picture of the bar be improved?
20100320 15:53:48< thespaceinvader> it's probably good to go in as it is, but i couldn't say for sure
20100320 15:58:02< mordante> who would be the best to ask Jetrel?
20100320 16:10:28< thespaceinvader> mordante: probably, yes
20100320 16:12:37< mordante> ok
20100320 16:24:39< CIA-80> thespaceinvader * r41646 /trunk/ (31 files in 4 dirs): Add and wire new Cave Spider graphics by beetlenaut, delete obsolete graphics. Update changelogs, credits.
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20100320 16:54:55< CIA-80> ai0867 * r41647 /trunk/configure.ac: Remove some remaining reference to the EXPERIMENTAL flag
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20100320 17:42:31< Gambit> mordante: the bug I reported earlier with not showing all information on windows
20100320 17:42:37< Gambit> it crashes on ubuntu
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20100320 17:48:48< mordante> Gambit, ok, not too surprised about that 
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20100320 17:53:14< CIA-80> mordante * r41648 /trunk/ (changelog doc/design/ doc/design/gui2.tex): 
20100320 17:53:14< CIA-80> Adds the draft gui2 design documentation.
20100320 17:53:14< CIA-80> This document describes parts of the design of gui2 and the ideas behind the
20100320 17:53:14< CIA-80> gui in general. It's composed of several notes I've written during the
20100320 17:53:14< CIA-80> development. More parts will be added later.
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20100320 18:22:34< teaser> mordante: now I've managed to test it with trunk (41647) and the problem is still unresolved
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20100320 18:30:11< mordante> teaser, I assume you mean the resize issue, not the error you reported today
20100320 18:31:03< teaser> mordante: yes the problem I reported earlier was due to some weird leftovers in my trunk dir (after a clean co and install they went away)
20100320 18:31:58< mordante> ok good then I'll run my patch along ilor if he sees no problem I'll commit that version
20100320 18:32:24< mordante> I didn't really expect the changes would have fixed it, but one can hope
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20100320 18:38:09< Darkas> haoyu, so what do we do? ;)
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20100320 19:00:16< shadowm_laptop> </quit later
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20100320 20:11:58< Ivanovic> re
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20100320 20:19:37< fendrin> hi boucman
20100320 20:20:09< boucman> hey fendrin
20100320 20:20:13 * boucman is back home
20100320 20:20:36< mordante> Crab_, silene, can either of you look at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15659 ?
20100320 20:20:55< mordante> hi boucman 
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20100320 20:22:57< mordante> Ivanovic, do yo agree with won't do? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15633
20100320 20:23:13< Ivanovic> yes
20100320 20:24:38< fendrin> I think that there is a point in the request.
20100320 20:24:52< Ivanovic> fendrin: it is not easily doable!
20100320 20:25:07< mordante> fendrin, I think not, there might be an option to show the % translated and then let the user decide
20100320 20:25:08< Ivanovic> fendrin: we had such a policy for 1.0
20100320 20:25:25< Ivanovic> and in fact it was quite some work when packaging the tarball
20100320 20:25:32< mordante> Ivanovic, guess what I just typed in the bug report ;-)
20100320 20:25:48< Ivanovic> and all packagers would have to rely on the tarball, just checking out tags/ would *not* work
20100320 20:25:52< boucman> Ivanovic: 1.8 isn't branched yet, is it ?
20100320 20:26:05< Ivanovic> no, it will branched about a day after 1.8 is tagged
20100320 20:26:18< Ivanovic> cf my mails to the dev ml explaining the schedule in detail
20100320 20:26:36< boucman> ok, (getting up to speed)
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20100320 20:27:48< fendrin> boucman: Do you need help with the stuff you want to be in 1.8?
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20100320 20:34:30< fendrin> esr: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561580 You had a fix for the first point? Is zookeeper working on that? 
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20100320 20:37:59< boucman> fendrin: i don't have anything for 1.8, it was more about merging the anim branch, but not yet
20100320 20:38:48< fendrin> boucman: You want it to merge into trunk right after the branch?
20100320 20:38:49< timotei21> hello everyone
20100320 20:39:04< boucman> fendrin: not all of it, but most of it, yes
20100320 20:39:07< boucman> hello timotei21
20100320 20:39:37< timotei21> I'm a wannabe GSoc participant, and as I saw until now, this project is the most suited to me
20100320 20:40:08< mordante> hi timotei21 nice to hear
20100320 20:40:09< timotei21> so, boucman, if you have some time, could you mark my forum account (timotei21) as a GSoc participant?
20100320 20:40:46< boucman> timotei21: right away, i need to figure out how to do it :)
20100320 20:41:21< timotei21> thank you
20100320 20:41:24< Ivanovic> boucman: you have to add timotei21 to the group and make the group default
20100320 20:41:57< boucman> done
20100320 20:42:56< mordante> crimson_penguin, does this also happen on your system? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15625
20100320 20:44:12< crimson_penguin> mordante: I would assume so; I get warnings when it starts, I haven't checked playing through the game
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20100320 20:44:29< orfest> guys, if I've coded something and want to share this, where should I put it?
20100320 20:44:44< mordante> orfest, a sample or a patch?
20100320 20:44:56< crimson_penguin> orfest: bugs.wesnoth.org - under patches, if it's a patch
20100320 20:45:05< timotei21> pastebin?
20100320 20:45:25< mordante> a sample pastebin a patch patches.wesnoth.org
20100320 20:45:30< orfest> so, it affects 2 files with code and 2 CMakeLists.txt
20100320 20:46:14< mordante> orfest, that doesn't matter, the question is more is it a finished patch or some work in progress
20100320 20:46:36< mordante> if work in progress pastebin the patch
20100320 20:46:50< orfest> ok, I'm going to pastebin :)
20100320 20:47:01< mordante> ok
20100320 20:57:03< orfest> stats uploader rewritten to *blocking* boost::asio : http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/tQuytEwZ
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20100320 20:57:31< orfest> the issue with a long timeout on application termination seems to be fixed by it
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20100320 20:57:57< orfest> the question is, does it make any sense to rewrite it to non-blocking boost::asio?
20100320 20:58:01< Ivanovic> orfest: uhm, could you upload a patch, too?
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20100320 20:58:17< Ivanovic> (eg done via "svn diff > my.patch")
20100320 20:58:33< boucman> orfest: (assuming it's not ready for commit) could you post a svn diff to pastebin, it's easier for us to proofread
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20100320 21:00:03< orfest> boucman: should I make to different submits for cpp and hpp ?
20100320 21:00:09< orfest> s/to/two
20100320 21:00:30< boucman> no need, multi file patches are (quite) easy to read
20100320 21:01:19< orfest> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/w7rL5FZh
20100320 21:02:41< Ivanovic> orfest: around like 305 in the diff formatting is screwed up, extreme amount of spaces at the end of the lines
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20100320 21:05:06< mordante> orfest, before submitting a patch read this thread http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9979 regarding the changelog and about.cfg
20100320 21:05:50< mordante> orfest, also make the changes to CMakeLists.txt to the other two build systems SCons and autotools
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20100320 21:12:58< mordante> orfest, IMO it's also a good idea not to mix cleaning up with changing code (not that you need to change it now just a general remark)
20100320 21:16:54< mordante> orfest line 282 +       if (response.size() != wanted_response.size()) return false;
20100320 21:17:19< mordante> this in combination with the comment before the function looks odd
20100320 21:17:51< mordante> since I would expect an std::vector<std::string> to be allowed as well
20100320 21:18:13< mordante> so better make the comment clearer
20100320 21:18:21< orfest> mordante: what's wrong with it?
20100320 21:19:31< mordante> orfest, nothing wrong, but confusing; there are more constrains to the parameter T being send
20100320 21:20:13< mordante> better use std::string<char> to make it clearer what's expected
20100320 21:20:25< orfest> mordante: I see, will fix
20100320 21:22:44< timotei21> well, it looks like I'll choose this project for GSOC.
20100320 21:22:57< timotei21> It is that much problem if I've never worked with SDL?
20100320 21:23:19< boucman> it's an extra hurdle, but we don't know if any students will already know sdl
20100320 21:23:34< timotei21> but worked with XNA and I know general game design principles
20100320 21:23:36< timotei21> ok:)
20100320 21:24:36< timotei21> I shall go now and read more about gsoc and wesnoth
20100320 21:25:18-!- Gambit is now known as MatterNots
20100320 21:27:17< boucman> timotei21: if you're new at wesnoth, you should consider playing it too :)
20100320 21:27:21< mordante> orfest, could you make a real patch, including the build system changes and post it at patches.wesnoth.org
20100320 21:28:25< orfest> mordante: I don't have changes for other build systems yet
20100320 21:28:35< orfest> mordante: isn't it a problem?
20100320 21:29:18< boucman> orfest: not at this point, but you'll need it for the patch being accepted
20100320 21:29:27< boucman> (fortunately, it's trivial to add files)
20100320 21:29:37< mordante> orfest, are you able to make these changes yourself?
20100320 21:29:46< mordante> boucman, it's not adding files ;-)
20100320 21:29:57< orfest> mordante: sure, I just really want to have some sleep :)
20100320 21:30:28< mordante> ok otherwise one of us could have helped you with it
20100320 21:31:04< orfest> mordante: ok, if I get into troubles, I will ask for help :)
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20100320 21:35:36< fendrin> Hello YogiHH
20100320 21:35:43< YogiHH> hi fendrin
20100320 21:36:03< fendrin> Did someone assign a bug to you? Something with gold and multiplayer.
20100320 21:37:38< fendrin> YogiHH: Ah no, it is assigned to me. https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15656 Can you take that over?
20100320 21:38:31< YogiHH> fendrin: done
20100320 21:39:43< fendrin> Thanks
20100320 21:40:42< fendrin> Ivanovic: I am playing with the thought to investigate how eclipse plugins are coded for the gsoc mentoring.
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20100320 22:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 73 bugs, 255 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100320 22:23:14< CIA-80> jhinrichs * r41649 /trunk/ (changelog src/play_controller.cpp): Fix bug #15545 (recall list gone after loading savegame created in linger mode).
20100320 22:26:43-!- MatterNots is now known as Gambit
20100320 22:27:09< YogiHH> happygrue, you there?
20100320 22:31:58< zookeeper> fendrin, i can't figure out what the version is in that debian bug.
20100320 22:32:04< zookeeper> "Version: 1:1.4.4-2+lenny1
20100320 22:32:06< zookeeper> "
20100320 22:33:25< Soliton> 1.4.4
20100320 22:35:27< zookeeper> great
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20100320 22:36:25< zookeeper> unless someone can reproduce them with current versions, i think i won't try to...
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20100320 22:53:51< CIA-80> ai0867 * r41650 /trunk/src/ (6 files): Initialize savegame_config in all subclasses
20100320 22:54:40< Ivanovic> YogiHH: cool, so one savegame/multiplayer/replay bug less
20100320 22:55:51< Ivanovic> hmm, who is best for looking at this bug? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15659
20100320 22:55:53< boucman> thespaceinvader: around ?
20100320 22:55:55< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: maybe for you?
20100320 22:56:29< thespaceinvader> boucman: indeed
20100320 22:56:45< crimson_penguin> but... it's Windows, and I don't know anything about lua
20100320 22:56:48< boucman> thespaceinvader: did you have a look at http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=416463#p416463 ?
20100320 22:56:58< Ivanovic> ups, i meant Crab_, not crimson_penguin
20100320 22:57:07< thespaceinvader> saw the thread, didn't check out the file yet
20100320 22:57:10< thespaceinvader> give me a minute
20100320 22:57:14< Ivanovic> why are the first two letters not a unique hash for the users in here?!?
20100320 22:57:15< mordante> Ivanovic, I also asked that question ;-)
20100320 22:58:01< Crab_> Ivanovic: I'll take a look
20100320 22:58:24< Ivanovic> Crab_: thanks
20100320 22:58:33< Ivanovic> this one sounds really strange to me...
20100320 22:58:49< thespaceinvader> boucman: the images look fine, but aside from the equivalent of mangrove swamps, i see no reason to include submerged trees
20100320 22:59:30< boucman> ok, i could "special case" tree overlays on water, if it was worth it, but i'm not sure it is...
20100320 23:00:02< boucman> and if it is, i'd rather have it without the under layer so it can be adapted if we change the water tiles
20100320 23:01:45< boucman> thespaceinvader: more generally, i've been keeping a separate branch for terrain stuff, taking upon myself of adding them so artists would get interested in terrain again (it seems to work) but I would be glad if you/jetryl could give me ok/nok for terrains, so i don't add "ugly stuff" 
20100320 23:02:28< thespaceinvader> in terms of appearance, that looks fine (though i'd maybe prefer the water a little shallower)
20100320 23:02:41< thespaceinvader> i'm happy with that arrangement, though
20100320 23:03:23< boucman> you mean about me deciding about new terrain ?
20100320 23:06:01< timotei21> got a little question (I've subscribed to the commit mailing-list): the "mp" from: mp_game_settings, does it come from MultiPlayer?:)
20100320 23:06:28< Ivanovic> yes
20100320 23:06:34< timotei21> ok, thanks
20100320 23:13:45< Ivanovic> Crab_: have you tried to reproduce this one and been able to do so? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15598
20100320 23:14:13< Crab_> Ivanovic: no, haven't tried that one
20100320 23:14:19< Ivanovic> okay
20100320 23:15:31< Ivanovic> YogiHH: a case of "won't fix"? (since the unit dies at the beginning of its own turn due to wml stuff) https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?14427
20100320 23:16:20< Ivanovic> that is: at the time the save is created the wml was not yet executed and thus the game can not yet know that the save is worthless
20100320 23:16:52< Crab_> Ivanovic: what about 'even can be loaded with your main character dead and missing. '  part ?
20100320 23:16:58< Crab_> Ivanovic: e.g. is it playable ?
20100320 23:17:47< Ivanovic> Crab_: since the autosave takes place before any wml is played of the turn: you end *right* at the start since then the event is executed that kills you
20100320 23:17:53< mordante> I'm off night
20100320 23:18:07< YogiHH> Ivanovic: I think it is valid, though i probably won't fix it before 1.8 gets out
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20100320 23:18:29< Crab_> Ivanovic: then, does the WML make you immediately lose you game again because of 'no leader' ?
20100320 23:18:34< Ivanovic> YogiHH: personally i know no way around this
20100320 23:18:53< YogiHH> Ivanovic: It sounds like events are executed before the autosave takes place. If that is the case, maybe just the time for autosaving needs to be earlier.
20100320 23:18:56< Ivanovic> Crab_: when you load the savegame the wml is executed that will kill you
20100320 23:19:07< Ivanovic> YogiHH: ehm, no
20100320 23:19:16< Ivanovic> YogiHH: from what i read it does work perfectly fine
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20100320 23:19:40< Ivanovic> YogiHH: from what i read the autosave is created right before any side events of the turn are exectued
20100320 23:19:48< Ivanovic> and those side events will directly lead to death
20100320 23:20:02< timotei21> ok guys, I gotta go. see ya tomorrow!
20100320 23:20:05< timotei21> good night
20100320 23:20:26< Crab_> Ivanovic: no, load the save and see for yourself
20100320 23:20:36< YogiHH> Ivanovic: If you load the autosave and immediately loose (with an according message), then that is ok
20100320 23:20:50< YogiHH> Ivanovic: If not, there is something to fix :)
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20100320 23:20:53< Crab_> Ivanovic: load the save at the end of the next turn, let hero die, load auto. you'll be able to play
20100320 23:21:15< Crab_> YogiHH: it is not. you can load the autosave and play without the leader.
20100320 23:21:29< Crab_> only till the end of turn, of course.
20100320 23:21:37< YogiHH> hehe
20100320 23:22:23< Ivanovic> okay, this looks really interesting
20100320 23:23:16< Crab_> note that if you make someone other that the leader die , someone whose death only leads to defeat because of a 'die' event, not because of 'normal' defeat conditions, then you'd probably be able to play normally :)
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20100320 23:32:17< Crab_> haoyu: './wesnoth -t lua_ai -d' to load a test scenario. it's also possible to use ai batch testing, you can write some python code to parse wesnoth's logs from stderr (see utils/ai_test for example)
20100320 23:32:32< Crab_> (where the argument after -t is a scenario id)
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20100320 23:36:35< Crab_> orfest: the uploader should try to be unnoticed by the player, and upload the files-ready-to-be-uploaded only when it's possible and convenient. the exact upload moment is not important.
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20100320 23:55:58< CIA-80> thespaceinvader * r41651 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Update credits
--- Log closed Sun Mar 21 00:00:43 2010