--- Log opened Wed Mar 24 00:00:11 2010
--- Day changed Wed Mar 24 2010
20100324 00:00:11< Gambit> Darn my reply didn't go through to stupid "AI cheats" guy :(
20100324 00:03:27< CIA-80> crab * r41726 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): modify lua ai attack routines to use correct aggression value for the ai side. eExpose ai::engine_lua and ai::readonly_context to lua ai function handlers. Patch #1559 (second patch by Darkas)
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20100324 00:04:27< shadowmaster> Gambit: please let TSI do his job
20100324 00:04:39< shadowmaster> there's no need to make further replies
20100324 00:04:43< Gambit> kk
20100324 00:08:18< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41727 /website/start/1.8/ (index.lt.html po/lt.po): updated Lithuanian announcement translation
20100324 00:08:24< Gambit> You've got to lol at that thread; For once someone isn't complaining about the influence of luck, but that somewhow the AI is luckier at higher difficulties.
20100324 00:09:04< Gambit> Actually I guess you don't have to lol. It might make some people cry that there are people out there like that.
20100324 00:09:53< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41728 /trunk/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Lithuanian translation
20100324 00:10:01< CIA-80> crab * r41729 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg: UtBS 2: fix wrongly used [protect_location] tags - speed up AI
20100324 00:10:11< Gambit> Also I don't see where anyone called him an ass.
20100324 00:10:18< Gambit> Except maybe here :P
20100324 00:13:03< CIA-80> crab * r41730 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog): changelog entries for above commit
20100324 00:13:06< Crab_> well, at higher difficulties ai can indeed kill more units because it forgives less mistakes 
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20100324 00:13:23< Crab_> e.g. leaving a high-hp unit in a vulnerable terrain
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20100324 00:14:10< Ivanovic> at higher difficulties the ai simply has more money available and thus more units to kill the players units
20100324 00:15:05< Crab_> that's too. but I was talking about attack depth, it's sometimes set to 3 at lower difficulties, thus allowing high-hp units to act as 'invulnerable shields'
20100324 00:15:51< Ivanovic> only rather seldom IIRC
20100324 00:16:29< Gambit> But does it modify CTH?
20100324 00:16:31< Crab_> yes, seldom
20100324 00:16:36< Crab_> Gambit: not at all.
20100324 00:16:50< Crab_> Gambit: it only says how many attacks ai thinks in 'advance'
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20100324 00:17:07< Gambit> And that guy refuses to recognize that. He wants you (the developers) to *prove* that it doesn't.
20100324 00:17:22< Crab_> Gambit: a good guy, isn't it ? ;)
20100324 00:17:23< Gambit> Instead of him (the only person that believes it does) to prove that it does.
20100324 00:18:08< Gambit> And when it was stated that the proof is in the source code he basically said "No. I am just a player. Why should I do extra work?". No pleasing him. :)
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20100324 00:18:46< Gambit> Not to mention the fact that difficulties are defined in WML, which makes it even easier yet to prove.
20100324 00:19:42< Sapient> So all we have to do is translate the entire game engine (and any called C routines), into a simple language he can understand
20100324 00:20:08< Gambit> Well the game engine doesn't really care/know what a difficulty is right?
20100324 00:20:17< Gambit> It just takes whatever is set in the WML?
20100324 00:20:18< Crab_> Sapient:and that simple language is called 'forum ban?' ;)
20100324 00:20:33< Crab_> Gambit: yes, difficulty is a preprocessor-only thing
20100324 00:20:43< Gambit> I mean you could give the player 500 more gold than the AI and set the AI to recruit only one unit per turn and call it "Super Hard".
20100324 00:21:02< Crab_> yes
20100324 00:21:19< Gambit> So if he had taken time to do any amount of research...
20100324 00:22:48< Crab_> :)
20100324 00:22:57< Ivanovic> you could even call it "uberhard" and it would still not behave differently...
20100324 00:23:27< Gambit> Nope; the word uber adds 10% CTH to all enemy attacks. 
20100324 00:24:24< Espreon> I could call myself 'God', but that wouldn't enable me to cause mangos to fall from the sky by snapping my fingers.
20100324 00:30:31< Ivanovic> why would you want *mangos* falling from the sky?
20100324 00:30:53< Ivanovic> why not better fried chicken?
20100324 00:31:00< Ivanovic> or let it rain chocolate
20100324 00:31:47< Espreon> Not funny...
20100324 00:31:53< Espreon> Also, I love mangos...
20100324 00:34:11< Espreon> As for fried chicken... no... just... no...
20100324 00:34:17< Espreon> I'd rather have eel fall from the sky.
20100324 00:36:19< Ivanovic> no!
20100324 00:36:31< Ivanovic> what about steak and french fries?
20100324 00:37:24< Ivanovic> anyway, time to head over to my (really comfortable) bed, n8
20100324 00:37:33< Espreon> OK, goodnight.
20100324 00:41:43< Remiel_> Crab_: dinnertime here, I'll read up on Lua and the AI in wesnoth and hopefully be back with better questions than "Hurrr, duh durrr, how do I do this?"
20100324 00:41:55< Crab_> Remiel_: ok :)
20100324 00:42:05< Crab_> Remiel_: it's always good to hear interesting questions :)
20100324 00:42:25 * Espreon LOLs
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20100324 00:42:57< Crab_> Espreon: thinking about "is the RNG...?" ones, aren't you ? :)
20100324 00:43:10< Espreon> Huh?
20100324 00:43:39< Crab_> (sorry, then, forget)
20100324 00:43:48< Espreon> The RNG is the RNG...
20100324 00:43:53< Espreon> ... yeahz...
20100324 00:44:26< Espreon> It's random... and it generates numbers... what more is there?
20100324 00:48:43< fendrin> Espreon: It's a black magic system that we abuse to balance campaigns. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29289 http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29300
20100324 00:49:01< Espreon> 'Tis a lie!
20100324 00:50:22< Gambit> Yeah don't forget the part where you lie about it to.
20100324 00:51:07< Espreon> Shhhhh...
20100324 00:51:20< fendrin> Crab_: You fixed the utbs ai issue already?
20100324 00:51:49< Crab_> fendrin: yes, but feel free to refix. I was just making sure that its current state is not broken.
20100324 00:52:32< Crab_> fendrin: I made northern bandits protect top part of the map, and the southern - area around their oasis.
20100324 00:52:43< Crab_> fendrin: I think that it's ok.
20100324 00:53:14< Crab_> fendrin: the general way of fixing such bugs is launching with --log-debug=ai/* to see what ai is doing
20100324 00:53:23< fendrin> Crab_: I don't get how you did it. There is only one hex protected right now, isn't it?
20100324 00:53:34< Crab_> fendrin: with the default radius 
20100324 00:53:45< Crab_> fendrin: the same default radius as it was before
20100324 00:54:06< Crab_> fendrin: the [protect_location] tag was broken from summer-2009 till end-of-january 2010
20100324 00:54:10< fendrin> What amount is the default radius?
20100324 00:54:35< Crab_> 20
20100324 00:54:41< fendrin> 20?
20100324 00:54:43< fendrin> Hell
20100324 00:54:52< fendrin> That is the whole map on most scenarios.
20100324 00:55:01< Crab_> fendrin: that's the old default value
20100324 00:55:04< Crab_> fendrin: it's too big
20100324 00:55:30< Crab_> fendrin: what is means: as soon as some other unit gets nearer than protect_radius to target hex, the ai will start to get a bit nervous about it
20100324 00:55:32< fendrin> It may work well for that scenario since it is huge.
20100324 00:55:40< Crab_> fendrin: the nearer, the more nervous..
20100324 00:55:56< fendrin> Ah
20100324 00:55:57< fendrin> I see
20100324 00:56:32< Crab_> fendrin: it doesn't do anything for AI units which are already 'in combat range' with the enemy, but it affects units which are far away from enemy
20100324 00:57:16< Crab_> the new syntax for it is http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8#protect_location_.5Bgoal.5D
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20100324 01:11:46< UnknownDevice__> Hey Crab_ any chance you could answer some questions for me? :)
20100324 01:11:56< Crab_> you're welcome
20100324 01:12:14< UnknownDevice__> I was just doing my page on the wiki for the GSoc
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20100324 01:13:08< UnknownDevice__> And I was just working is it better to do something like Gabba has done and answer most of the questions in his user profile page and then link that in the template page? 
20100324 01:13:24< UnknownDevice__> *just wondering
20100324 01:14:18< Crab_> UnknownDevice__: np with that. note that gabba had a reason for doing it that way - he submitted two proposals to us and he wanted to avoid duplication of the info.
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20100324 01:14:35< UnknownDevice__> Yeah that's what I'm also interested in doing :)
20100324 01:14:42< Crab_> UnknownDevice__:  if you want, you can do the same, yes, that's ok.
20100324 01:14:58< UnknownDevice__> Great thanks for the help.
20100324 01:15:15< Crab_> UnknownDevice__: knowing about you is important, but, we're mainly interested in the project details of your proposal.
20100324 01:16:34< Crab_> UnknownDevice__: your proposal pages should be using standard student page template, your user page should be in {{SoC2010}}
20100324 01:16:57< Crab_> (just as gabba has done)
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20100324 01:45:55< fendrin> Crab_: Would a range=1 added to the [protect_location] tag have fixed it as well?
20100324 01:46:31< Crab_> fendrin: it would have helped, but differently
20100324 01:47:03< Crab_> fendrin: it's better to keep the number of goals and target markers low
20100324 01:48:19< fendrin> I see.
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20100324 02:00:15< fendrin> esr: around?
20100324 02:00:31< esr> fendrin: Yes, what's up?
20100324 02:01:20< fendrin> I saw your plans during the 1.9 cycle. Do you want to add some work on LoW to your list?
20100324 02:01:57< fendrin> The multiplayer port brings another leader (Landar) with it. So the speech should reflect that.
20100324 02:02:45< fendrin> It's no longer a campaign about the elvish hero Kalenz, it is a campaign about two elvish heroes.
20100324 02:03:04< Crab_> (or villains, depending on PoV)
20100324 02:03:19< fendrin> So the amount of speech of that two characters should equal.
20100324 02:03:24< fendrin> Crab_: :-)
20100324 02:04:11< fendrin> Cleodil is still much to quiet and there needs to be more hints to her lovestory with Kalenz. 
20100324 02:04:37< fendrin> Overall, I see the need to redo many of the prose of the campaign.
20100324 02:05:05< Crab_> fendrin: and some scenarios, such as 'battle of the book', needs redesign, too
20100324 02:06:05< fendrin> Crab_: Battle of the book, elvish assassins and The chief must die are candidates for a redo.
20100324 02:06:26< Crab_> well, 'chief must die' is at least funny 
20100324 02:06:35< Crab_> agree about the others
20100324 02:09:46< fendrin> If the feature of joining player through a MP campaign gets implemented Olurf will become a third player character.
20100324 02:10:27< fendrin> And we have to think about a Cleodil or similar for Landar.
20100324 02:11:29< fendrin> Scenario 17 and 22 need a better map.
20100324 02:14:23< fendrin> Crab_: I have cut off LoW MP after scenario 7 because I didn't know how to handle Olurf.
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20100324 02:14:59< Crab_> fendrin: well, it was a preview anyway. I suggest joining him with Kalenz
20100324 02:15:18< fendrin> hmmm
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20100324 02:15:32< Crab_> fendrin: for story reasons - Landar won't ally with him, I think.
20100324 02:16:03< fendrin> I want to avoid fights between the players about who is the one that is allowed to play Kalenz.
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20100324 02:16:25< Crab_> fendrin: well, I think that both sides should be a bit different
20100324 02:16:38< Crab_> fendrin: balanced, but different. it's funnier that way
20100324 02:17:09< fendrin> No problem with that but how can we compensate the dwarfs joining Kalenz?
20100324 02:17:45< Crab_> fendrin: well, more $$$ is the first compensation - Kalenz spends gold on dwarves
20100324 02:18:10< Crab_> fendrin: but, actually, who can be Landar's allies ?
20100324 02:18:21< Crab_> fendrin: story-wise, who can we pick ? 
20100324 02:18:26< fendrin> Yes, but that is not a satisfying solution. Nearly every player would prefer new units over some gold.
20100324 02:18:37< Crab_> fendrin: some elven veterans ? woses ? something else ?
20100324 02:18:51< fendrin> Would woses join Landar?
20100324 02:19:28< Crab_> fendrin: maybe esr knows this..
20100324 02:19:45< Zarel> I don't think woses would join Landar.
20100324 02:19:54< Zarel> They'd probably be on the side of the shamans. :P
20100324 02:20:02< Zarel> (If nothing else)
20100324 02:20:23< fendrin> Zarel: Agreed.
20100324 02:20:25< esr> I think so too.
20100324 02:20:58< Crab_> Zarel, esr: so, the question is: if we want to give Landar's player a new unit or two to recruit, which unit can we pick ?
20100324 02:21:15< esr> fendrin: I'm not averse to doing some work on LoW, especially not on the prose side.  But I expect you'll be taking the lead on that.
20100324 02:22:14< esr> Crab_: That's a problem.  Landar is a xenophobe.  Pretty much rules out anything but other elves.  
20100324 02:22:20< Zarel> Crab_: Are Elvish fighters, archers, and scouts not good enough? :(
20100324 02:22:32< esr> Well, undead maybe.
20100324 02:22:34< Crab_> Zarel: but they're already present from scenario 1. not funny.
20100324 02:22:56< Zarel> esr: I dunno, I find it a bit too stereotypical to associate undead and orcs with anything remotely evil.
20100324 02:23:06< esr> Does Wesnoth have dark elves?  Might be cool if it did.
20100324 02:23:31< esr> Zarel: I sympathize, I'm just listing the alternatives,'
20100324 02:24:35< Crab_> esr: I think it needs to be a caster/healer
20100324 02:24:47< fendrin> Zarel: They are good enough. It's just a problem that Kalenz is joined by dwarves and Landar is not if both are played be players in the MP mode.
20100324 02:24:50< Zarel> Does Landar have _any_ Shaman-line units?
20100324 02:25:12< Crab_> Zarel: yes, but they need to leave after scenario 17
20100324 02:25:14< esr> Zarel: It's politically unlikely he's get any.
20100324 02:25:25< Crab_> ok
20100324 02:25:29< esr> After the breach, I mean.
20100324 02:25:41< fendrin> Zarel: Right now he does. But there are plans to introduce per Leader recruiting lists in 1.9. 
20100324 02:26:15< fendrin> After that I plan to let only Cleodil recruit shamans.
20100324 02:26:29< fendrin> In SP mode that is no problem.
20100324 02:26:58< fendrin> But in MP mode it is if Cleodil is on Kalenzes team and there is no compensation for Landar.
20100324 02:27:29< fendrin> All that problems let me think that it is a bad idea to convert LoW to a multiplayer campaign when Crab_ suggested it first.
20100324 02:27:44< Crab_> are there half-elves in wesnoth ?
20100324 02:27:57< fendrin> Crab_: Good question.
20100324 02:28:14< fendrin> esr: There is a dark elve faction in a UMC era somewhere.
20100324 02:28:19< Zarel> Crab_: I think I've heard that the answer is "no"
20100324 02:29:22< Crab_> maybe add a L4 promotion to one of Landar's elven units ? sort of praetorian guard
20100324 02:29:24< Zarel> All the romance in Wesnoth campaigns seem forced...
20100324 02:29:28< esr> fendrin: I think that might desrve to be polished to mainline level.  I can think of *lots* of juicy uses for bad-guy elves, oh yes indeed.
20100324 02:30:03< Zarel> I'm not sure the best way to implement bad-guy elves is with a "designated bad" faction.
20100324 02:30:46< Zarel> I think I remember hearing that Wesnoth was trying to move away from clear black/white morality.
20100324 02:30:48< esr> Zarel: That's because the medium doesn't give us a lot of column-inches to develop romances in.  Be grateful those subplots don't suck much worse. They easily could.
20100324 02:31:02< Zarel> esr: Heh, true.
20100324 02:32:02< Crab_> e.g., add a L4 advancement for Landar and Landar's Elvish Avengers (this will also naturally make Landar's player recruit more archers)
20100324 02:32:10< esr> And as-to black/white morality - I'd love to have dark elves in mainline and to write a campaign written from their point of view in which they're the good guys.
20100324 02:33:18< esr> I could do it, too.  Look at what I did to Malin Keshar's backstory in DiD.  Bwahaha.
20100324 02:34:12< Zarel> Crab_: That's not a bad idea.
20100324 02:34:24 * esr concurs
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20100324 02:34:57< Zarel> Or maybe another branch from L2.
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20100324 02:35:14< Zarel> noy: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=417234#p417234
20100324 02:35:19< noy> I can read
20100324 02:35:21< noy> thank you
20100324 02:35:21< Crab_> Zarel: imo, L4 is better, because there'll be L4 shamans on Kalenz's side
20100324 02:35:54< Zarel> noy: Wasn't sure if you were planning on continuing reading that thread. :/
20100324 02:36:06< Zarel> Crab_: I said "branch". It _could_ go to L4. ;)
20100324 02:36:13< Crab_> hehe :)
20100324 02:36:39< Zarel> I mean, Sylphs get so much... flying, magic, slow, high dodge...
20100324 02:36:52< Zarel> I'm not sure an L4 Avenger would really be a good match.
20100324 02:37:02< Crab_> Zarel: w Leadership :) ?
20100324 02:37:06< fendrin> esr: Yes maybe. But there is so much art already waiting to be finished. The Kalifa, new desert elves, the normal elves need a redo. I fear that a new faction that could ally with Landar will not be ready that soon.
20100324 02:37:20< Zarel> Crab_: rofl, now _that_ would definitely make it a more even fight.
20100324 02:38:05< fendrin> Crab_: Why should the elves that Landar leads have another advancement tree than the ones that follow Landar?
20100324 02:38:07< noy> If you read carefully I already addressed the point you made too Zarel 
20100324 02:38:28< fendrin> s/Landar/Kalenz for the later Landar.
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20100324 02:39:58< Zarel> Well, I mean, Kalenz has everything Landar has, plus dwarves (or so I hear) and shaman-line units. Makes the fight _really_ uneven...
20100324 02:40:15< fendrin> A third player for Olurf or olurf being a ai side would solve the dwarf problem at least.
20100324 02:40:16< Crab_> fendrin: because Landar seems a lot more focused on martial prowess and doesn't trust any allies, i thought that it was quite logical for him to train a cadre of elite warriors which'll be sworn to defend Landar's and his ideals, and keep the secrets of their training 
20100324 02:40:34< Crab_> s/Landar's/Landar
20100324 02:42:55< Crab_> and it'd make for a good 'my ELVES are so powerful, they can win vs anything, I don't need those puny dwarves' attitude from Landar players :)
20100324 02:44:13< Zarel> Makes sense.
20100324 02:44:18< Zarel> We could use Elvish Hunters?
20100324 02:44:19< Gambit> You elf supremacist skin head.
20100324 02:44:58< Crab_> and, actually, giving them leadership is a good idea, since, without healers, Landar would need to spam L1 and lead them to their glorious deaths, to defend his elite units.
20100324 02:45:35< Crab_> or it can be 'Elvish Assasins'
20100324 02:47:20< fendrin> I would like to have a useful lvl4 advancement for Cleodil.
20100324 02:47:27< fendrin> By the way.
20100324 02:47:28< Zarel> Crab_: No, I mean, there are already units called "Elvish Hunter" out there.
20100324 02:47:54< Zarel> I think they're used in shadowmaster's campaign, what's it called.
20100324 02:48:03< Crab_> Zarel: oh, that's even better :)
20100324 02:48:11< Zarel> That one campaign.
20100324 02:48:20< Zarel> Basically, non-desert versions of the Desert Hunters in UtBS.
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20100324 02:48:49< Zarel> http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/C/Desert%20Hunter.html
20100324 02:48:59< Zarel> Like that, except with green clothes and regular elf movetype.
20100324 02:49:49< Zarel> Could also adapt the Elvish Horseman from UtBS.
20100324 02:55:01< fendrin> The desert hunter is a horrible unit I want to get rid of in UtBS.
20100324 02:55:10< Crab_> why ?
20100324 02:55:24< fendrin> It makes the elvish fighter pretty much obsolete.
20100324 02:55:33< Crab_> oh
20100324 02:55:38< Zarel> Even so, it's used in IftU (I remembered what the campaign I was thinking of was called!)
20100324 02:55:43-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy]
20100324 02:55:59< fendrin> Zarel: IftU is a UMC and no longer maintained.
20100324 02:56:14< Gambit> H
20100324 02:56:23< fendrin> H? Hitler?
20100324 02:56:30< Espreon> Oh noez!
20100324 02:56:31< Zarel> And if it makes Elvish Fighter obsolete, then, well, Landar _does_ need stronger units. ;)
20100324 02:56:48< Zarel> We can balance its melee attack to be stronger, if necessary.
20100324 02:56:56< Zarel> I mean, weaker.
20100324 02:57:34< Crab_> Zarel:well, Landar is associated more with archers, than with fighters. so, it's probably ok if fighters are somewhat obsolete for him )
20100324 02:58:02< Zarel> Yeah, what Crab_ said. ;)
20100324 02:58:18< Zarel> Plus, it adds back the slowing attack that Landar loses.
20100324 02:59:16< Crab_> Zarel: the main thing that is needed is counteracting shamans... for that, a skirmisher 'assasin' would be nice to have
20100324 03:00:04< Zarel> Are higher-level Elvish Hunter line units skirmisher?
20100324 03:00:05< Crab_> Zarel: and, actually, if we don't give leadership to that L4 unit , then Landar will need fighters anyway for leading , to make them marshalls
20100324 03:00:14< Zarel> If not, we could decrease their melee attack and add that.
20100324 03:00:55< Crab_> Zarel: why 'decrease melee' ? I don't think that a shaman-killer unit would want to kill the shamans in ranged :)
20100324 03:01:13< Zarel> Mainly just afraid it'd be overpowered.
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20100324 03:01:54< Crab_> Zarel: not for a L4. and it won't have massive ranged damage that certain shamans have
20100324 03:02:11< Zarel> Heh.
20100324 03:02:30< Zarel> Are we planning this unit as an L4 version of the Elvish Hunter then?
20100324 03:02:43< Crab_> Zarel: I'm thinking of it more as a 'elvish assassin' )
20100324 03:03:17< Crab_> Zarel: and Landar would need fighters for meatshield and for leadership, so, that wouldn't be 'all archers' army
20100324 03:04:15< Zarel> It makes kind of sense that a "Hunter"/"Prowler" could become an assasin-like unit.
20100324 03:04:42< Crab_> yes, so, branch a "Hunter"/"Prowler" off L2, and then turn it into assasin at L4 ?
20100324 03:05:05< Zarel> Alternate level-up for the Prowler? Lose the ranged slow attack, add poison to melee and skirmisher?
20100324 03:05:21< Zarel> And elusivefoot
20100324 03:05:26< Crab_> I like it
20100324 03:05:30< Crab_> what's elusivefoot ?
20100324 03:05:43< Espreon> A movetype.
20100324 03:05:53< Zarel> 70% on most terrain, 60% of flat, 40% on deep water and other bad-terrain.
20100324 03:06:07< Zarel> Y'know, what assasins have.
20100324 03:06:14< Crab_> good :)
20100324 03:06:38< Crab_> actually, is poison better than slow ?
20100324 03:06:57< Zarel> Depends on if you're trying to kill a unit, or let someone else kill it. ;)
20100324 03:07:11< Zarel> I mean, make it easier for someone else to kill
20100324 03:07:26< Crab_> well, poison doesn't kill, too :)
20100324 03:08:01< Zarel> True, but it makes them easier to kill next round.
20100324 03:08:08< Zarel> Which slow doesn't.
20100324 03:08:26< Crab_> slow means more chances to survive till next round ;0
20100324 03:08:39< Crab_> actually, 'backstab' is the best for quickly killing things
20100324 03:08:54< General_Fou_Fou> wouldn't slow help you get more people over there to kill the unit?
20100324 03:08:56< Zarel> Well, you're an assassin. Unless you catch someone alone, that's really not going to be an issue.
20100324 03:09:20< Zarel> General_Fou_Fou: ...I don't think so...
20100324 03:10:06< Crab_> Zarel: so, basically, it's a L4 version of Human Assasin :)
20100324 03:10:20< fendrin> Crab_: Is it hard to implement recruit lists per leader?
20100324 03:10:39< Crab_> fendrin: if we don't care about compat , easy enough :)
20100324 03:10:54< Crab_> fendrin: if we care a bit, somewhat harder, but still easy.
20100324 03:11:23< Zarel> Crab_: I'm not sure that's a good idea.
20100324 03:11:38< Crab_> Zarel: how do you want it to differ ?
20100324 03:11:52< Zarel> Melee poison was a pretty good idea, I think.
20100324 03:11:55< Crab_> Zarel: 'no backstab, poison melee'?
20100324 03:12:38< Zarel> Yeah. Perhaps keep the bolas, but weakened?
20100324 03:12:40< Crab_> I don't like 'poison', since it won't help you kill shamans
20100324 03:12:42< Zarel> Like 6-1.
20100324 03:12:54< Zarel> Hmm.0
20100324 03:13:41< Crab_> yes, keeping the ranged bolas is a good idea (it's a good defense against massive ranged like Sylph's 11-5 )
20100324 03:14:20< Crab_> even L1 elvish shaman will stop the effects of poison, so no additional dmg will be done
20100324 03:15:38< Crab_> that's why I prefer backstab - it'll be actually possible to blast out a poorly-positioned sylph by a pair of assassins
20100324 03:18:01< General_Fou_Fou> Crab_: I think you're a person I'm supposed to inform of the "GSOC Possible Student" status of my wesnoth forum name?  It's "Fou_Fou"
20100324 03:18:24< Crab_> General_Fou_Fou: will do so now :)
20100324 03:18:31< General_Fou_Fou> Crab_: Thanks!
20100324 03:18:34< Crab_> Zarel: L3 elvish avenger natively has ambush. for L4 - add a backstab to it, lower ranged dmg and increase speed and change the movetype - and all is good. what do you think ?
20100324 03:20:19< Zarel> Crab_: I don't know, that seems a bit too big of a change for a straight level-up.
20100324 03:20:37< Zarel> I still think branching the Hunter might be a better idea.
20100324 03:20:48< Zarel> Maybe add backstab instead of poison.
20100324 03:21:03< Crab_> yes, this can be a better idea
20100324 03:21:25< Crab_> I agree
20100324 03:24:06< Crab_> General_Fou_Fou: done. anything else ?
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20100324 03:24:31< General_Fou_Fou> Crab_: I don't think so.  Sorta working my way through the checklist now of stuff to do
20100324 03:24:40< Crab_> ok, good luck to you :)
20100324 03:24:44< General_Fou_Fou> Thanks
20100324 03:24:52< Crab_> Zarel: good night
20100324 03:25:09-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100324 03:25:13< Zarel> 'Night.
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20100324 04:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8 commits allowed till March, 24th, 12:00 GMT, afterwards "testfreeze" | string/feature freeze active! | 69 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100324 04:08:04< fendrin> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29302&p=417248#p417248
20100324 04:08:25< fendrin> Gambit: Yes, you didn't convince that idiot.
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20100324 04:20:49< Gambit> You all need to get new jobs apparently.
20100324 04:20:59< Gambit> Though I'm not sure what your current jobs have to do with wesnoth.
20100324 04:21:19< Gambit> Since working on an open source game as a hobby != employment :\
20100324 04:24:15< Gambit> please don't lock
20100324 04:24:19< Gambit> imma try to explain the WML?
20100324 04:24:49< fendrin> Gambit: If you feel so. :-)
20100324 04:29:23< ancestral> To be honest...
20100324 04:29:44< ancestral> I think the frustration comes from not knowing how to play Wesnoth
20100324 04:29:53< ancestral> And the best way to resolve this
20100324 04:30:21< ancestral> Is to really get the tutorial revamped, which has been discussed and generally agreed upon as a good course of action
20100324 04:30:54< ancestral> Wesnoth combat is very different from most games
20100324 04:31:17< Gambit> ancestral: I guess I should get back to work on that...
20100324 04:31:32< ancestral> :)
20100324 04:32:17< Gambit> But JMC doesn't strike me as the kind of person who plays tutorials
20100324 04:33:44< fendrin> ancestral: You do have a point there. But Wesnoth does have a manual. And not knowing how to play a game is no reason to insult the developers.
20100324 04:33:58< ancestral> Of course not
20100324 04:34:05< Gambit> Zarel: That's uncalled for :P
20100324 04:34:08< ancestral> However
20100324 04:34:19< Gambit> But a little bit funny.
20100324 04:34:23< Zarel> Gambit: Oh, believe me, it's even worse now.
20100324 04:34:30< Zarel> (I edited my post)
20100324 04:34:48< ancestral> At the end of the day, despite the criticism and such, you have to look at yourself and think, alright, why is this happening
20100324 04:34:57< Gambit> Zarel go through todays IRC logs in #wesnoth
20100324 04:35:03< Gambit> look for rocket16
20100324 04:35:05< Gambit> I lol'd
20100324 04:35:08< Zarel> What'd he say?
20100324 04:35:13< Gambit> Apparently he is part of an indian community
20100324 04:35:22< Zarel> Oh, yeah, Espreon and I had a good laugh at that.
20100324 04:35:27< Zarel> The first time he joined.
20100324 04:35:27< Gambit> with membership only 129 thousand people shy of the entire population of india
20100324 04:35:37< Gambit> and they all hate warzone 21
20100324 04:35:38< Zarel> We trolled each other when he first arrived.
20100324 04:35:41< Gambit> and microsoft.
20100324 04:35:52< Espreon> Indeed...
20100324 04:36:00< Zarel> Hmm? What'd they say about Warzone? >:(
20100324 04:36:16< Gambit> "Not enough building and fighting"
20100324 04:36:22< Gambit> lmao.
20100324 04:36:47< Zarel> rofl
20100324 04:37:14< Gambit> And yeah his community is based in india with a membership of 1 billion
20100324 04:38:13-!- Mythological_ is now known as Mythological
20100324 04:38:50< Gambit> But Zarel in WZ2100 the AI aims better at higher difficulties!!!1!one!eleven!!1!
20100324 04:39:06< Gambit> good night wesnoth XD
20100324 04:39:20< fendrin> Gambit: Would be a good reason to go to there forum and do some trolling :-)
20100324 04:39:31< fendrin> s/there/their
20100324 04:40:03< Gambit> and tell them all to get new jobs.
20100324 04:40:08< Zarel> rofl.
20100324 04:40:16< fendrin> :-)
20100324 04:40:19< Zarel> The developers only, though, not the artists. ;)
20100324 04:40:29 * Zarel quickly goes and changes his Warzone forum rank to "artist"
20100324 04:40:30< Gambit> Though to any unemployed wesnoth developers; that would seem like solid advice.
20100324 04:41:01< Zarel> http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?p=51398#p51398
20100324 04:41:09< Zarel> Although, as you can see, I'm already halfway there. ;)
20100324 04:41:31 * Espreon rolls his eyes
20100324 04:42:24< ancestral> "Artveloper?"
20100324 04:42:53< Zarel> You're just jealous because you don't have my sense of humor. :P
20100324 04:43:22< Gambit> Zarel: I bet JMC gets ticked off at you "WTF kind of game is CC-0? Get a new job!"
20100324 04:43:35< Zarel> rofl
20100324 04:44:06< ancestral> Heh
20100324 04:45:04< Gambit> And a haircut.
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20100324 04:45:10< Zarel> THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR
20100324 04:47:07< Espreon> OKz...
20100324 04:48:14< Zarel> CC-0 is a fun game, anyway. The game of getting rid of your copyrights! :D
20100324 04:48:20< Zarel> Copyrights are for losers, anyway.
20100324 04:48:27< Zarel> Like the RIAA and MPAA.
20100324 04:49:17< Zarel> No RNG there, either. Unless you were playing like "Russian Roulette CC-0".
20100324 04:49:39< Zarel> Roll a die, roll a 6 and you public domain all your stuff, otherwise you keep it GPL. ;)
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20100324 05:00:19< ancestral> I personally prefer the WTFPL
20100324 05:00:44< ancestral> (http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/)
20100324 05:06:57< Zarel> The problem with the WTFPL is that it's not a public domain license.
20100324 05:07:29< Zarel> So basically it's about the same, except users in some countries could have legal problems using your software.
20100324 05:07:36< ancestral> Then clearly you are an America-centered, Commonwealth-biased individual
20100324 05:07:45< ancestral> according to the author
20100324 05:07:56< Zarel> No, that would be the flaw of the WTFPL.
20100324 05:09:12< ancestral> They could have legal problems?
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20100324 05:20:12< Zarel> ancestral: Yes.
20100324 05:20:30< Zarel> CC-0 is basically WTFPL rewritten to eliminate its legal problems.
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20100324 07:02:54< Blarumyrran> Does NRIW mean not using crosses on things like crowns & flags & shields also?
20100324 07:03:12< Blarumyrran> I mean, that would be silly but I don't think I've seen it
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20100324 07:22:39< zookeeper> err, 12:00 GMT meaning am or pm?
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20100324 07:41:44< ebozgul> it is greenwich mean time
20100324 07:42:48< ancestral> 5 hours left?
20100324 07:43:54-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Quit: crimson_penguin]
20100324 07:45:53< fendrin> zookeeper: Are you asking about the time when Ivanovic will branch 1.8?
20100324 07:47:52< zookeeper> no
20100324 07:48:35< zookeeper> anyway, i'm assuming 5 hours...
20100324 07:49:16< fendrin> Yes, that is the plan.
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20100324 10:12:16< Ivanovic> zookeeper: yes, i mean "high noon" gmt
20100324 10:12:20< Ivanovic> moin
20100324 10:13:06< pokhbocee> goodnight everybody
20100324 10:13:33< zookeeper> Ivanovic, ok, so i still a couple of hours
20100324 10:13:36< zookeeper> +have
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20100324 10:16:01< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41731 /trunk/po/wesnoth-units/de.po: updated German translation
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20100324 10:29:49< Ivanovic> zookeeper: you saw this bug report? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15687
20100324 10:33:52< zookeeper> uh, no. i'll take a look before time runs out..
20100324 10:36:25< Ivanovic> yes, please
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20100324 10:49:03< Crab__> zookeeper: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15687 is probably my fault
20100324 10:50:06< zookeeper> Crab__, so i'd imagine, but if you don't have time to investigate and fix, i can try to find a workaround
20100324 10:53:38< Crab__> zookeeper: it's a c++ issue
20100324 10:53:38-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100324 10:54:06< zookeeper> if the guards could be given a proper AI so the WML hack wouldn't be needed, then that'd simplify things a lot...
20100324 10:54:30< Crab__> zookeeper: I'll take a look
20100324 10:54:46< zookeeper> well, actually not since the WML hack for the guard behaviour isn't really complicated, it's the guard placement which is
20100324 10:55:00< zookeeper> so nevermind that, better spend your time in trying to fix the c++ issue :P
20100324 10:55:39< Crab__> anyone here willing to quickly fix a simple c++ issue before the release ?
20100324 10:57:12< Crab__> zookeeper: it's easy enough to fix, I'd probably be able to post a patch even without access to compiler, but I can't commit it atm :)
20100324 10:58:27< zookeeper> well sure, i can commit it if you want
20100324 10:58:39< zookeeper> how sure you are that it works?
20100324 10:58:58< Crab__> zookeeper: you'd be able to compile and test if the bug is solved, isn't it ?
20100324 10:59:07< zookeeper> no, can't compile
20100324 11:00:50< Serei_> Hmm.
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20100324 11:04:07< Crab__> ok, then, the question is slightly different: anyone here willing to try out a patch ?
20100324 11:07:03< Crab__> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/jZSi2whC
20100324 11:07:41< Crab__> Ivanovic: ^ this patch should fix idle_ai, used on several mainline maps
20100324 11:10:31< Ivanovic> try as in "see if it compiles"?
20100324 11:10:45< Ivanovic> got no time for more, got to leave for uni in 45mins
20100324 11:13:24< Crab__> Ivanovic: I think that it compiles. but we need to check if it fixes bug #15687, before the release
20100324 11:15:56< Ivanovic> Crab__: i can commit the patch and then zookeeper can wait for loonycyborg to get a binary to test things
20100324 11:16:10< Ivanovic> that is: it compiled nicely over here
20100324 11:16:13< Crab__> good
20100324 11:16:40< Crab__> yes, commit it
20100324 11:17:14< Crab__> or maybe any one of gsoc-ers can update&test, if they happen to be around :)
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20100324 11:17:50< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41732 /trunk/src/ai/configuration.cpp: 
20100324 11:17:51< CIA-80> AI fix/addition by Crab_ that might fix bug #15687
20100324 11:17:51< CIA-80> TODO: test if the bug is really fixed
20100324 11:17:51< CIA-80> if it is fixed: add a changelog entry; if it is not fixed: revert this commit
20100324 11:20:07< CIA-80> zookeeper * r41733 /trunk/data/core/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Added Lordbob's new orcish assassin portrait.
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20100324 11:31:07< CIA-80> zookeeper * r41734 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Map update to Cynsaun Battlefield from Doc Paterson.
20100324 11:31:58-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20100324 11:32:21< stikonas> wesbot: topic
20100324 11:32:23< wesbot> stikonas: Don't be impatient, wait until something changes...  *tsk*
20100324 11:32:52 * stikonas hides
20100324 11:38:51-!- mordante [~mordante@87.215.201.26] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 11:38:58< mordante> servus
20100324 11:39:21< mordante> esr, YogiHH was/is working on the load dialog gui2 conversion, not me
20100324 11:39:49< mordante> I did some random fixes on it but not really working on it
20100324 11:40:37< esr> mordante: OK, that must have changed since you and I last discussed game-threading.  Noted.
20100324 11:42:57< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: could you create a fresh trunk binary for zookeeper so that he can test if bug #15687 is fixed?
20100324 11:43:41< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: I've started the process.
20100324 11:43:46< Ivanovic> great
20100324 11:51:54< mordante> esr, I don't mind to work on it, I just know YogiHH was working on it
20100324 11:52:27< mordante> esr, and regarding the treeview there is a widget, but it will probably fail for your use case
20100324 11:52:47< mordante> esr, since it was added as fix for the lobby and only tested for that use case
20100324 11:52:56< mordante> (I plan to fix that in 1.9)
20100324 11:53:21< esr> mordante: Yes, that was my understandng when we last discussed this.
20100324 11:54:40< Ivanovic> i am off to uni now, cu
20100324 11:55:37< mordante> esr, yeah I was just not aware whether or not you knew YogiHH already did some things
20100324 11:55:41< loonycyborg> zookeeper: The binary is updated.
20100324 11:56:02< zookeeper> loonycyborg, great, i'll take a look..
20100324 11:56:46-!- deekay [~dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 11:57:42< esr> Ivanovic: I am thinking about the time between 1.8 freeze and 1.9 fork and being puzzled.  What ourpose does that gap serve?
20100324 11:57:51-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 11:58:11< Crab__> hello, deekay
20100324 12:00:51< deekay> hey everyone
20100324 12:01:13< deekay> hi Crab__ 
20100324 12:01:50< loonycyborg> esr: It's a dramatic pause :P
20100324 12:02:07-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 12:08:48< shadowmaster> esr: my guess: "making sure no release-critical bugs are hiding in trunk that could make 1.8 a disaster like 1.6"
20100324 12:09:43< stikonas> esr: all developers will have to join wesnoth multiplayer server and start gaming
20100324 12:09:55< shadowmaster> eh?
20100324 12:10:21< shadowmaster> when? where? will there be coffee and snacks?
20100324 12:10:50 * stikonas gives shadowmaster a cookie
20100324 12:11:02 * esr wants hot wings
20100324 12:12:09< shadowmaster> stikonas: nah, I'm eating a berliner
20100324 12:12:10 * esr wonders if there's anyone else on the channel who knows what "hot wings" are
20100324 12:12:35< Appleman1234> esr: hot wings lol
20100324 12:14:03< Appleman1234> esr: www.omahasteaks.com/gifs/big/sp065.jpg ? 
20100324 12:15:01< esr> Appleman1234: Yes, that's it.  Though there's a tend away from wet sauces towards spicy dry rubs.
20100324 12:15:15< esr> s/tend/trend/
20100324 12:16:26< esr> shadowmaster: In English "berliner" = "jelly doughnut".  (But very few Americans know this.)
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20100324 12:20:22< Appleman1234> hmm, adding a plugin architecture to the wesnoth lobby 
20100324 12:20:37< Appleman1234> so that you can use commands to do things....
20100324 12:20:52< Appleman1234> like order hotwings via the internet from wesnoth lobby
20100324 12:21:31< Appleman1234> hmm
20100324 12:24:12< Crab__> Appleman1234: just make a lobby-irc gateway, and do the rest in an irc bot :)
20100324 12:25:55< Appleman1234> I was thinking of extending the command list to a command that run a program in console and using something like that domino console client 
20100324 12:25:57< zookeeper> Crab__, Ivanovic, looks like hide and seek works right now
20100324 12:26:20< Crab__> zookeeper: that's good
20100324 12:26:26< Crab__> thanks for verifying this
20100324 12:26:44< zookeeper> wings would be nice but you can't get any decently produced ones from pretty much anywhere in this whole backwater country -.-
20100324 12:34:23< zookeeper> actually you can't buy any non-intensive-farmed chicken meat of any kind anywhere in here, which is highly annoying
20100324 12:34:50< Blarumyrran> Would you know it's intensive-farmed by its taste?
20100324 12:35:02< zookeeper> maybe, but i doubt it
20100324 12:43:05< zookeeper> Crab__, btw, i marked the hide and seek bug as fixed and assigned to you
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20100324 12:57:13< Crab__> zookeeper: ok
20100324 13:00:07-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 13:01:12< timotei21> helo everyone
20100324 13:01:50< Blarumyrran> Hello timotei21.
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20100324 13:22:20< timotei> is anyone who builds wesnoth with vs2008 on windows herE?
20100324 13:25:02-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100324 13:30:26< CIA-80> zookeeper * r41735 /trunk/data/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Added undead recruitment animations for Malin in DiD and added a missing magic sound to the dark sorcerer's animation.
20100324 13:30:54< zookeeper> ok, i don't think i have anything else pending
20100324 13:32:11< zookeeper> hmmh, maybe that slight balance tweak to EI:evacuation...
20100324 13:33:10< timotei> guys, I have a little problem compiling the project
20100324 13:33:15-!- FAAB [~huajie@219.142.227.233] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 13:33:29< timotei> In my visual studio project, there is a file named "src/time.cpp"
20100324 13:33:33< timotei> but that doesn't exist
20100324 13:34:12< FAAB> hi Crab__, are you there ?
20100324 13:35:03< shadowmaster> timotei: just remove that entry
20100324 13:35:11< timotei> ok
20100324 13:35:39< timotei> it seems there are many more invalid entries. Can I remove them, and submit a patch with the fix?
20100324 13:35:50< shadowmaster> sure
20100324 13:36:02< timotei> ok
20100324 13:36:44< FAAB> Crab__: for the problem I got yesterday with AI Arena, I got it fixed by introducing the line {core/macros/ai_candidate_actions.cfg} into data/ai/dev/formula_ai_poisoning.cfg
20100324 13:38:07< FAAB> Crab__: seems like the macro AI_CA_COMBAT_SCORE used in data/ai/formula/poisoner_eval.fai were not defined for me.
20100324 13:38:25< YogiHH> timotei: just for the record, i am on vs2008 express
20100324 13:38:35< Crab__> FAAB: hi
20100324 13:39:20< Crab__> FAAB: yes, it's a known problem in c++ code which can be worked around for the ai arena in that way
20100324 13:39:21< YogiHH> timotei: i use my own project file separate from svn, so the one in the repository might be out of date now and then
20100324 13:39:37< FAAB> Crab__: now I want to put my AI in the related UMC but I can't find the trick. Part of my investigations got logged on the #wesnoth channel
20100324 13:40:12< Crab__> for sp or for mp ?
20100324 13:40:19< timotei> yeah
20100324 13:40:24< FAAB> Crab__: if you have time to read it and if you can give me a pointer that would be much appreciated
20100324 13:40:31< FAAB> Crab__: MP
20100324 13:41:48< Crab__> you can include your ai in your own umc or you want to do this from an era ?
20100324 13:42:01< FAAB> my latest status is that I made it worked by removing all stuffs out of the [ais] tags in data/_main.cfg and make a direct include of my AI .cfg file from there :
20100324 13:42:35< FAAB> my UMC is an era (a single faction actually)
20100324 13:42:39< shadowmaster> maybe there should be a script that automatically generated the VC++ project files from one of the other recipes
20100324 13:42:45< shadowmaster> or at least updated the input lists
20100324 13:42:57< Crab__> shadowmaster: I've almost got cmake working for that.
20100324 13:43:11< YogiHH> timotei: btw, i work with a release build most of the time, it's really quite a bit faster and has debugging and stack traces as well.
20100324 13:43:22< Crab__> shadowmaster: it compiled, but I got to fix 2-3 remaning linking issues (just some path mismatches)
20100324 13:43:25< YogiHH> timotei: these are my preprocessor definitions: WIN32;NDEBUG;_WINDOWS;_CRT_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS;HAVE_PYTHON;USE_GZIP;NO_HAVE_FRIBIDI;NOMINMAX
20100324 13:43:25< FAAB> the faction defines new abilities and specials and I want to provide some tweak in tha AI that keep it playable vs AI
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20100324 13:43:33< shadowmaster> Crab__: ah
20100324 13:44:03< Crab__> FAAB: then the best solution is to add a [event] which'll use  [modify_ai] tags to add things to the ai
20100324 13:45:20< CIA-80> zookeeper * r41736 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/ (maps/Evacuation.map scenarios/13.Evacuation.cfg): Made the troll guardians lvl2 on easy, moved the enemy encampments 1 hex further away from the player and added a bit of forest and other minor tweaks to the map. Ought to make the scenario slightly easier.
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20100324 13:45:31< timotei> ok
20100324 13:45:43< Crab__> FAAB: or, you can fix c++ code to get the list of MP ais not only from  data/_main.cfg [ais] tag, but from umc-based [ais] tags in addons, as well
20100324 13:45:54< timotei> thanks
20100324 13:46:11< YogiHH> np
20100324 13:46:21< FAAB> AFK
20100324 13:47:00< Crab__> FAAB: or, you can make a 'standalone ai' (which can be parsed as a separate file, just like you did when you referenced the ai macroses from the ai config), and load it via switch_ai, just as ai arena does.
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20100324 14:32:33< Gambit> For you guys: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29306 
20100324 14:33:52< timotei> very nice!
20100324 14:33:54< timotei> congrats
20100324 14:34:21< timotei> yogi, you're still online?
20100324 14:35:28< Crab__> Gambit: a good one :)
20100324 14:38:59< CIA-80> zookeeper * r41737 /trunk/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/ (maps/9_Caverns_of_Flame.map scenarios/9_Caverns_of_Flame.cfg): Gave the starting location a bit more space so that larger number of units fit there without getting placed inside walls. Also removed an obsolete dummy side.
20100324 14:45:35< YogiHH> timotei: yes
20100324 14:46:01< timotei> oh, I think I resolved the issue, but not sure yet
20100324 14:46:12< timotei> the problem is building the boost libraries with ziblib support
20100324 14:46:35< timotei> that is, in 1.2.4 they removed some needed .h/.c files, so boost cannot anymore build the libs.
20100324 14:46:44< timotei> I've downloaded the 1.2.3 version just to make sure it build
20100324 14:46:47< timotei> builds*
20100324 14:47:30< timotei> so, in the meantime I wanted the libboost_zlib-vc90-mt files
20100324 14:47:36< timotei> if you can send them to me.
20100324 14:47:42< timotei> and have some spare time
20100324 14:48:18< timotei> but I'll come back after 2 hours, have some classes now.
20100324 14:52:04< YogiHH> timotei: not sure if i can help you on that one as i still use boost 1.37.0
20100324 14:52:24< YogiHH> timotei: I build boost with bjam, this is what i use for iostreams, for example: bjam -sZLIB_BINARY=zlib -sZLIB_SOURCE=D:\Wesnoth\Libraries\zlib-1.2.3 -sZLIB_INCLUDE=D:\Wesnoth\Libraries\zlib-1.2.3 -sZLIB_LIBPATH=D:\Wesnoth\Libraries\VC++ --toolset=msvc-9.0 --with-iostreams
20100324 14:55:34< Crab__> timotei: you can get all the libs from ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/msvc9/external.tar.gz
20100324 14:56:05< Crab__> timotei: 50mb archive, w/boost libs in it, too
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20100324 15:13:13< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41738 /trunk/src/wesconfig.h: 
20100324 15:13:13< CIA-80> bump version to 1.8.0
20100324 15:13:13< CIA-80> this is the start of the test freeze! no commits unless you explicitly ask me in IRC and I give my okay
20100324 15:13:13< CIA-80> if everything is fine I will tag 1.8.0 in some 22 hours, in the meantime please test everything as much as possible
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20100324 15:15:07-!- Ivanovic_ontour changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: trunk under test freeze, no commits unless Ivanovic okays them, test everything as much as possible, tagging of 1.8 planned for "High Noon" GMT on 25th March | string/feature freeze active! | 69 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100324 15:24:39< FAAB> Crab__: a fix in C++ would never get in 1.8, right ?
20100324 15:26:59< Crab__> FAAB: some fixes are backported later (1.8.1, 1.8.2, etc), usually when it's a bugfix and the risk of regressions is low.
20100324 15:27:12< FAAB> so I think I will go with the [modify_ai] way as I want my code to be used in 1.8
20100324 15:27:18-!- stikonas [~and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 15:27:28< FAAB> I see
20100324 15:28:19< Crab__> FAAB: switch_ai should work, too. but modify_ai is better, because you can change only those parts that you require.
20100324 15:28:42< Crab__> FAAB: e.g., if you add a few candidate actions, you can just insert them into main_loop of RCA ai
20100324 15:29:03< Crab__> and you can code them in formula ai or lua
20100324 15:29:09< FAAB> the [modify_ai] way does not look straightforward either as I can't make the link between the [modify_ai] as presented in Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8 and my current AI code (which is basically identical to your poisoning one for the first step)
20100324 15:29:59< Crab__> what your current ai code is ? a few [stage]'s ? or a few candidate actions ?
20100324 15:31:28< FAAB> a stage for now, like I said I just made some changes in your poisoning improvement code
20100324 15:32:00< Crab__> then something like [modify_ai] side={SIDE_NUMBER_HERE} action=add    path=stage[0] [stage]{YOUR_STAGE_CODE_HERE}[/stage][/modify_ai] might work
20100324 15:32:57< Crab__> but, poisoning improvement is, in fact, just one candidate action
20100324 15:33:04< Crab__> (plus fallback to old ai)
20100324 15:33:23< Crab__> it'll actually work better if you modify it to inject just a candidate action via modify_ai to the main_loop of RCA ai
20100324 15:34:11< Crab__> you can see the examples - {MODIFY_AI_ADD_CANDIDATE_ACTION ...} macro
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20100324 15:35:39< FAAB> indeed it is a candidate action inside a stage
20100324 15:37:11< FAAB> I put the code there http://pastebin.com/LmcV6Ngv so you can look how similar they are ;)
20100324 15:38:09< FAAB> I have the macro in macro-reference.xhtml but I miss the examples
20100324 15:38:47< FAAB> ok, I see it
20100324 15:39:59< FAAB> it seems doable I will try that way 
20100324 15:41:08< FAAB> I feel bad to spam the channel with my UMC problems :(
20100324 15:44:52< esr> Somebody with MP savvy needs to test this blocker: bug #15359: Lobby crash when viewing player list
20100324 15:46:22< stikonas> esr: latest trunk cannot connect to MP server
20100324 15:46:28< stikonas> it is not running yet
20100324 15:46:31< esr> What?
20100324 15:46:39< stikonas> it wants to connect to 1.8
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20100324 15:46:47< esr> That's a problem in itself, isn't it?
20100324 15:47:00< stikonas> I think that the server will be started tommorow
20100324 15:47:08< fendrin> esr: No, it is just that it targets an ip behind which no server is running.
20100324 15:47:34< stikonas> fendrin: actually it says that server expects version 1.5+svn*
20100324 15:47:59< Gambit> So you've got to have a really big game highlighted and the player list has to be large enough to need a scrollbar, and then you have to refresh, but there has to be more players than the last time?
20100324 15:48:09< fendrin> Ah, yes. A server is running but it's still the wrong version.
20100324 15:48:11< stikonas> but that server will probably be replaced with a new one
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20100324 15:56:18< Darkas> Crab__: hi
20100324 15:56:47< Crab__> FAAB: well, it's not a problem, spam further if you have problems or (even better) post at the forums - as we need to know, what problems UMC creators face.
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20100324 15:56:51< Crab__> hi, Darkas
20100324 15:57:24< Darkas> Crab__: did my patch get into the repository?
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20100324 15:58:05< Crab__> yes
20100324 15:58:19< Crab__> wesbot: log 41718
20100324 15:58:20< wesbot> crab * r41718 : Add support for AI candidate actions written in lua. patch LuaW_pcall to support LUA_MULTRET. Patch #1558 by Darkas.
20100324 15:58:23< Crab__> wesbot: log  41726
20100324 15:58:23< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41718
20100324 15:58:39< Crab__> wesbot: log 41726
20100324 15:58:40< wesbot> crab * r41726 : modify lua ai attack routines to use correct aggression value for the ai side. eExpose  ai::engine_lua and ai::readonly_context to lua ai function handlers. Patch #1559 (second patch by Darkas)
20100324 15:58:44< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41726
20100324 15:59:12< Darkas> Crab__: ok, thanks
20100324 15:59:28< Darkas> that's great ;)
20100324 15:59:36< Crab__> Darkas: yes! :) so far, you're doing really good - it is very important that the 'lua candidate actions' patch was made in time for 1.8
20100324 16:00:13< Crab__> Darkas: I would like to ask - do you want commit access to wesnoth repository ? you've earned it :)
20100324 16:00:24< Darkas> Crab__: will any lua candidate actions actually go into 1.8?
20100324 16:00:30< Darkas> Crab__: yeah, that would be great
20100324 16:01:06< Crab__> Darkas: lua code can be packaged as addons, so we can package lua stuff for 1.8 users to download
20100324 16:01:30< Darkas> Crab__: ok, that's great
20100324 16:01:31< Crab__> Darkas: at gna, you should apply for group membership in wesnoth project, and ping Ivanovic about it
20100324 16:02:55< Crab__> Darkas: then, you should supply a valid ssh public key to gna, wait a while, and, when testfreeze ends, you'll be able to commit your changes/improvements directly into wesnoth's svn (using 'svn' or 'git svn', depending on what you like more)
20100324 16:05:39< Crab__> and keep up the good work :)
20100324 16:07:08< Darkas> Crab__: well, I'm having lots of time these days, so in a few weeks, it might be that I can do only half of what I've done yesterday
20100324 16:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: trunk under test freeze, no commits unless Ivanovic okays them, test everything as much as possible, tagging of 1.8 planned for "High Noon" GMT on 25th March | string/feature freeze active! | 67 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100324 16:08:34< Crab__> Darkas: there's still plenty of time remaining, so no problems with that. be sure to formulate and detail your proposal in more detail, and start converting it into a real proposal :)
20100324 16:09:00< Darkas> Crab__: yeah, that was one of the things I wanted to do today ;)
20100324 16:09:15< Crab__> Darkas: that's good :)
20100324 16:09:44< Crab__> now you know at least some parts of the task first-hand :)
20100324 16:10:43< Darkas> right, and I think I do now have better a better overview of what I can do for GSoC
20100324 16:11:26< Crab__> yes. Do you need to know anything else at this point ? ask questions, if necessary.
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20100324 16:15:55< Gambit> Crab__: Does FAI provide for rooting a number, because I don't think [set_variable] has a key for that.
20100324 16:16:39< Darkas> Crab__: yes, there's something I'd like to know
20100324 16:16:44-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100324 16:16:57< Crab__> Gambit:  afair, no. but lua has math.sqrt()
20100324 16:17:24< Darkas> do you think it's possible to make the ai decide what's the best for it right now? I mean something like attack, defend, etc
20100324 16:17:33< Gambit> Can you raise things to decimal powers in FAI?
20100324 16:17:40< Darkas> so if it should defend, aggression gets lower, etc.
20100324 16:17:43< Gambit> or only whole numbers?
20100324 16:19:19< Crab__> Gambit: yes, it looks like that you can.
20100324 16:19:28< Gambit> Because 16^0.5 is the same as square rooting. The reason I'm asking is for WML implementation of the distance formula.
20100324 16:19:37< Gambit> Crab__: thanks.
20100324 16:20:08< Crab__> Gambit: if you cannot, then file bug. the code tries to use 'double pow (      double base,      double exponent );'
20100324 16:20:40< Gambit> FAI has a distance in hexes I think; but I wanted coordinate distance. Crab__: Okay will do if I run into trouble.
20100324 16:24:41< Crab__> Darkas: the underlying problem is that defence is not just 'lowering aggression' -  the underlying problem is that AI doesn't understand ZoC
20100324 16:25:10< Darkas> Crab__: ZoC?
20100324 16:25:16< Crab__> Zone of Control
20100324 16:25:57< Crab__> Darkas: AI knows the 'current' effects of ZoC on movement map, but it is unable to 'shield' wounded units and decrease exposure to enemy power projection
20100324 16:26:24< Darkas> Crab__: but wouldn't that be a good things to add?
20100324 16:27:21< Crab__> Darkas: so, with aggression >0 , ai attacks and everything works quite ok, but when we reduce aggression, things start to get ugly - ai does only the 'best' attacks, and leaves the attacking units 'exposed' to enemy counter
20100324 16:28:17< Crab__> Darkas: yes, making the ai consider ZoC will make the ai able to defend more effeciently
20100324 16:29:48< Darkas> Crab__: would this plus giving a way to defend special units/places make a good project?
20100324 16:29:50< Crab__> Darkas: returning to your original question 'do you think it's possible to make the ai decide what's the best for it right now? I mean something like attack, defend, etc' - it's possible, but the ai now doesn't know how to defend efficiently, so there's little value in such a decision.
20100324 16:30:23< Crab__> Darkas: yes, making the ai able to defend is a good project
20100324 16:30:34< Darkas> Crab__: ok, then I'll do that
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20100324 16:30:52< Darkas> and also decide when it's time to defend :)
20100324 16:30:54< Crab__> Darkas: now it can only defend by 'counterattacking enemies which come near protected areas, with superior forces'
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20100324 16:31:59< Crab__> Darkas: another open project is 'making the ai recruit efficiently and know, to which parts of the map to send those recruits'
20100324 16:32:34< Crab__> Darkas: the first part of this was done by Dragonking last year, in formula_ai. the second is not yet done. so we see some evil things like 'mermens on land' from time to time :)
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20100324 16:32:53< Darkas> Crab__: yeah, that's cool :)
20100324 16:33:08< Darkas> but I think I like the defend thing more
20100324 16:33:24< Crab__> Darkas: the problem is "1. map got water, we recruit fish. 2. where's the enemy ? he's on land! 3. move our fish to land. 4.enemy profits"
20100324 16:33:45< Crab__> e.g. the mermen is a good recruit on that map, if the ai had sent him to water part of the map
20100324 16:34:03< Crab__> yes, I like the 'defend'  project more.
20100324 16:34:53< Darkas> Crab__: then I'll start to write about it :)
20100324 16:35:06< Crab__> Darkas: but note that the project must include 'make lua ai feature-complete', as well :)))
20100324 16:35:30< Darkas> Crab__: I think that's no problem
20100324 16:35:37< Crab__> that's good :)
20100324 16:35:40< Darkas> I just have to find the best connection
20100324 16:36:07< Crab__> ok
20100324 16:36:26< Darkas> hm, why not exposing the ai to lua and then write the defend code in lua?
20100324 16:36:38< Darkas> that should be a good connection :)
20100324 16:37:07< Crab__> yes, that's one of the good solutions :)
20100324 16:37:20< Crab__> and writing it in lua should be faster - since it's easier to test/modify
20100324 16:38:52< Crab__> we would be able to set up a integration testing for lua ais - e.g., run, in a loop, a test scenario where AI-1 attacks your AI-2, and AI-2 must defend, updating the code from svn from time to time.
20100324 16:39:21< Crab__> and then we'll be able to view results from the web interface, e.g. see if there were improvements and what script is the most successful
20100324 16:39:58< Crab__> (I've got such a script working last year, see src/utils/ai_test.py - I can set up it on one of my machines to run 24x7)
20100324 16:40:16< Crab__> so, we'll be able to *measure* your results.
20100324 16:40:44< Crab__> (if your proposal gets accepted, that is)
20100324 16:41:11< Crab__> (but you're going well so far)
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20100324 16:52:36< mordante> esr, I'm quite sure bug 15359 is fixed and never reproduced it that way
20100324 16:52:58< mordante> esr, but we accessed an "array" out of bounds which might have caused it
20100324 16:53:10< Ivanovic> esr: the purpose of that time is that stringchanges that are required in both, trunk and 1.8 can go in
20100324 16:53:23< mordante> esr, and ilor fixed that problem (it was the same cause as my random lobby crashes)
20100324 16:53:24< Ivanovic> since i won't run a pot-update on trunk for a while the files are meant to stay in sync for the moment
20100324 16:53:36< Ivanovic> yes, i know that there won't be many changes
20100324 16:54:05< Ivanovic> Darkas: you are in
20100324 16:54:21< Darkas> Ivanovic: thanks, great
20100324 16:54:53< Crab__> Darkas: so, congratulations :)
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20100324 16:55:13< mordante> congrats Darkas 
20100324 16:55:27< Darkas> thanks guys :)
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20100324 16:55:54< mordante> Ivanovic, I've some string changes and stikonas's bug for that period
20100324 16:56:04< Ivanovic> mordante: exactly
20100324 16:56:41< Ivanovic> so how does testing work out?
20100324 16:56:44< Ivanovic> any new issues found?
20100324 16:57:39< mordante> still at work so nothing tested yet
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20100324 17:01:10< Darkas> Crab__: would it be possible to group AI units?
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20100324 17:01:49< Darkas> so for example, the AI has to groups of units, one is attacking his enemy, and the other one is defending, both groups may be seperated from each other
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20100324 17:05:38< mordante> I'm off bye
20100324 17:05:51< Crab__> Darkas: yes, possible - but what to do with groups after grouping ?
20100324 17:06:02-!- mordante [~mordante@87.215.201.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100324 17:06:23< Crab__> also note that the combat situation can get tricky, esp. if skirmishers are involved - there might be not a 'line of battle', but a mess :)
20100324 17:08:05< Darkas> Crab__: those groups should act as I said, so not the whole AI defends but only a special group
20100324 17:08:54< Darkas> but I think it's better to flag units as 'attacker' and 'defender'
20100324 17:09:00< Crab__> Darkas: ok
20100324 17:09:15< Crab__> Darkas: makes some sense, since the priorities are different
20100324 17:09:40< Darkas> so if some units get in trouble, they'll become defenders
20100324 17:09:50< Darkas> Crab__: yeah, right
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20100324 17:13:57< Crab__> ok. note that the scenario creators might wish to add some their own flags, as well - it's real easy to do so - just label units directly or via a simple unit filter (SUF), without writing any ai code.
20100324 17:14:21< Crab__> e.g. 'attach behaviors to units via flags set on them'
20100324 17:14:42< Darkas> Crab__: yeah, that's good
20100324 17:15:14< Crab__> we can even reuse the 'ai_special' unit attribute for that (currently it supports "guardian" behavior which means that this unit doesn't move to targets until they come nearby)
20100324 17:15:46< Darkas> but then, I should also add a way to tell what they should defend
20100324 17:15:55< Darkas> Crab__: yeah, that sounds good
20100324 17:16:11< Darkas> I've updated my wiki page now, with a description
20100324 17:16:46< Darkas> and also in the questionnaire, there's a more technical explenation
20100324 17:19:55< Crab__> good
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20100324 17:22:47< Crab__> Darkas: you meant "I'm updating my wiki page now" ?
20100324 17:23:00< Crab__> (your page was last changed on March-21th)
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20100324 17:32:09< Darkas> Crab__: ah, the wiki lost my session data ;)
20100324 17:32:19< Darkas> it's updated now
20100324 17:32:40< Crab__> will take a look...
20100324 17:37:22< Ivanovic> Soliton: please make sure that the release server for the dev version does accept 1.8.*, too
20100324 17:37:46< Ivanovic> Soliton: that is: atm it tried to connect to a server telling me this: 20100324 17:36:56 error network: caught network::error: Dieser Server benötigt die Version »1.5.*svn«. Ihr verwendet Version »1.8.0«
20100324 17:39:03< Crab__> Darkas: ok, read through it. so far, looks good. I'll look forward to seeing more concrete plans for the 'defend units and places more effectively' part.
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20100324 17:40:42< Crab__> Darkas: I think that 'exposing c++ ai stuff to lua' part (which is more-or-less straightforward) will take about a 1/3 to 1/2 of gsoc time (lua ai standard library included)
20100324 17:41:19< Crab__> Darkas: so, some more concrete things are needed for the other part of the time where we'll want to use that lua ai support for various tactical scenarios
20100324 17:42:07< Ivanovic> okay, so far i was able to start every campaign, connect to the addon server, load the ingame help and load a game
20100324 17:42:18< Crab__> Darkas: and be sure to receive feedback from WML user-made-content developers, not just from me.
20100324 17:42:26< Ivanovic> so things are not completely broken (at least beside multiplayer, where the server seems to not be available yet...)
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20100324 17:43:46< uzyszkodnik> hello
20100324 17:45:23< Crab__> hi, uzyszkodnik
20100324 17:45:29< uzyszkodnik> i'm intrested in participating in wesnoth during the gsoc
20100324 17:45:38< Darkas> Crab__: ok, I'll do (all) that
20100324 17:45:53< Crab__> Darkas: thanks
20100324 17:46:00< uzyszkodnik> so i've decided to code some stuff from the easycoding part
20100324 17:46:03< Darkas> I'll just eat something before :P
20100324 17:46:10< uzyszkodnik> and here comes the question 
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20100324 17:46:50< uzyszkodnik> on easycoding site on wiki states that the village name generator needs some love
20100324 17:47:00< uzyszkodnik> but as far as i can see the first feature is coded 
20100324 17:47:22< uzyszkodnik> are the points done aswell?
20100324 17:48:53< uzyszkodnik> *the next two points
20100324 17:49:13< uzyszkodnik> that's the list of first and last sylabus
20100324 17:49:32< uzyszkodnik> and including more than one random name in the village name
20100324 17:50:11< uzyszkodnik> as far as i can see in the default_generate_map function or the generate_name ones they aren't
20100324 17:53:13< Crab__> uzyszkodnik: I'm not sure. as far I can see in the source, only one markov chain is used, so, only one component is generated
20100324 17:53:38< zookeeper> argh, why does everyone seem to want to work on that completely useless feature?
20100324 17:53:39< Crab__> uzyszkodnik: so, I'd say that the 2nd and 3rd features are not done
20100324 17:54:15< Crab__> zookeeper: well, someone can go to wiki, remove all useless stuff from easycoding, and put some nonuseless stuff in there :)
20100324 17:54:29< uzyszkodnik> Crab__, thanks i'll take a look at them then
20100324 17:55:12< Crab__> zookeeper: I'd say that it's because the 'namings' are not wesnoth-specific, so it's easier to hack them
20100324 17:57:46< timotei> hey Crab__, got a question
20100324 17:58:30< Crab__> timotei: yes ?
20100324 17:58:40< timotei> It's about the UMC eclipse plugin. Is fendrin already working on it?
20100324 17:58:57< timotei> I've deducted this based on the commits: branches/eclipse_plugin
20100324 18:00:06< Crab__> timotei: yes, fendrin and me are working on it
20100324 18:00:29< Ivanovic> this is there to, if someone chooses this project, have a starting base
20100324 18:01:03< Crab__> timotei: note: fendrin and me are potential mentors for that project
20100324 18:01:03< timotei> so, if I want to pick that up for gsoc, is it ok?
20100324 18:01:24< Crab__> timotei: yes, that's, actually, wonderful :)
20100324 18:01:44< Crab__> timotei: be sure to find fendrin and talk with him about the features :)
20100324 18:04:38< timotei> at least, there is a little sunshine for choosing a project:D
20100324 18:04:51< timotei> but, first I'll double check other projects
20100324 18:06:06< Crab__> timotei: ok :) feel free to ask if you have any questions or proposals
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20100324 18:11:25< timotei> ok, so, for: Extend Wesnoth Lua AI Support
20100324 18:11:33< timotei> I have to develop an AI part too, right?
20100324 18:11:47< timotei> I see them as pre-gsoc tasks
20100324 18:12:50< Crab__> timotei: I want to make sure that you familiarize yourself with with the current possibilities for writing AIs for wesnoth
20100324 18:13:06< Crab__> timotei: you need to know what you'll be extending, and how hard it's to write ais
20100324 18:13:22< Crab__> and the best way to find out how easy/hard the tools are, is to use them yourself
20100324 18:13:36< timotei> well, if I have to write AI, I'll drop this project, not so suited for that:D
20100324 18:14:14< Crab__> timotei: as I've mentioned earlier today, the 'porting' work is 1/2 to 1/3 of the project, the rest is more related to 'write AI components for various mini-scenarios'
20100324 18:14:36< timotei> right.
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20100324 18:14:48< Crab__> wesbot: seen orfest
20100324 18:14:48< wesbot> Crab__: The person with the nick orfest last spoke 1d 3h ago.  21h 53m ago they left with the message:
20100324 18:15:46< timotei> well, I have to choose between: Eclipse plugin, FutureWML
20100324 18:16:02< timotei> let's talk a bit about the eclipse plugin. 
20100324 18:16:17< timotei> the plugin will be something like an "editor" for wml files?
20100324 18:16:33< Crab__> it will contain such an editor, yes
20100324 18:16:49< Crab__> the base features for 1st release: wesnoth
20100324 18:16:55< Crab__> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EclipsePlugin
20100324 18:17:04< timotei> yeah, I'm reading that one right now
20100324 18:17:25< Crab__> the fun part is 'what to do with macroses?'
20100324 18:17:44< timotei> well, for that I have to study a lot the WML language, as I see
20100324 18:18:30< Crab__> timotei: you'd probably need to study some black magic stuff like parser generation, computer language grammars, etc
20100324 18:19:11< Crab__> but there's plenty of gui-related work, as well, for various wizards
20100324 18:19:23< Crab__> as there's 'frontend' and 'backend' parts in there
20100324 18:19:54< timotei> yeah:-?
20100324 18:20:05< timotei> wow, it sounds so appealing
20100324 18:20:06< timotei> :))
20100324 18:20:26< timotei> the editor is made in java, right?
20100324 18:20:31< Crab__> yes
20100324 18:20:41< timotei> that's good
20100324 18:21:06< Crab__> I've successfully used http://www.eclipse.org/Xtext/ to generate a prototype editor with autocompletion and syntax highlight
20100324 18:24:24< fendrin> timotei: hello
20100324 18:24:32< fendrin> Crab__: very cool.
20100324 18:24:32< timotei> hey there fendrin
20100324 18:24:39< fendrin> Crab__: Have you commited it?
20100324 18:25:04< fendrin> timotei: Having a gsoc student working on the eclipse plugin would be very cool.
20100324 18:26:01< timotei> yeah, I'm very tempted to dive in it
20100324 18:26:03< Crab__> fendrin: no, not yet. I need a way to grab in a current WML schema to make it useful
20100324 18:26:13< timotei> but first I'll do some research, and ask questions
20100324 18:26:37< fendrin> timotei: Wesnoth is a nice game with a friendly community. Developing it is really fun. I don't think you can find a better gsoc project at least not on this planet.
20100324 18:26:37-!- veaviticus [~83d4c4a2@gateway/web/freenode/x-ucrvwgwvithexnfn] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20100324 18:27:02< timotei> :D
20100324 18:27:17< timotei> I'm already sticked to wesnoth this year on GSOC...
20100324 18:27:32< timotei> so I'll do whatever it takes just to be sure I get a project in this community :)
20100324 18:27:53< fendrin> timotei: Have you already created your wiki page?
20100324 18:28:20< timotei> yes, but just filled in the questionnair
20100324 18:28:34< timotei> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode_Timotei21
20100324 18:28:36< fendrin> timotei: Please give me the link to it.
20100324 18:28:38< fendrin> :-)
20100324 18:32:23< fendrin> timotei: Okay, looks good. I saw that you are familiar with java and eclipse, that is a good start.
20100324 18:32:35< timotei> yes
20100324 18:32:39< fendrin> Have you ever had a look at eclipse plugin development?
20100324 18:32:47< timotei> mhh, not yet
20100324 18:32:54< timotei> but is not too late to do it:D
20100324 18:33:18< fendrin> Right, it's basically java and some xml.
20100324 18:33:51< fendrin> You will also need a basic understanding about wml.
20100324 18:38:27< fendrin> timotei: Any questions?
20100324 18:38:41< timotei> mhh
20100324 18:38:53< timotei> the GUI part of the plugin
20100324 18:38:58< timotei> is something like a designer?
20100324 18:40:20< fendrin> The eclipse plugin development environment offers some templates that also include gui examples.
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20100324 18:40:41< fendrin> But there is no designer as far as I know.
20100324 18:40:48< timotei> ok
20100324 18:41:00< timotei> so the UMC are only the .cfg -wml files?
20100324 18:41:17< fendrin> But that won't be a problem. The gui is not the heavy part of the coding task.
20100324 18:41:39< timotei> yeah, right
20100324 18:42:13< fendrin> Yes, a wesnoth campaign consists of wml config files, map files and optional images and music.
20100324 18:44:20< fendrin> But the eclipse plugin will mostly deal with the wml config files, since we already have a map editor. 
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20100324 18:45:48< timotei> yes
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20100324 18:49:57< timotei> fendrin, Do I have to compile the game when I'm doing the eclipse plugin?
20100324 18:50:07< timotei> cause right now, I'm striving with the compiling :)
20100324 18:50:20< fendrin> No, not necessarily.
20100324 18:50:42< fendrin> But compiling wesnoth is very easy, at least on a decent operating system. Which one do you use?
20100324 18:51:32< timotei> visual studio 2008, but I get some "obj" errors, I'll solve them anyway
20100324 18:51:56< fendrin> Would you mind installing linux?
20100324 18:52:10< timotei> I have one in my VM:)
20100324 18:52:20< fendrin> Which distribution is it?
20100324 18:52:23< Gambit> timotei: Try WUBI
20100324 18:52:25< timotei> ubuntu
20100324 18:52:42< fendrin> cool, do you want me to talk you to the process?
20100324 18:52:43< Gambit> It lets you install Ubuntu just like a regular windows application, and uses a virtual partition.
20100324 18:52:51< fendrin> s/to/through
20100324 18:54:13< Crab__> timotei: to fix .obj errors, you need to fix the project file to store compiled .cpp files in specific folders. e.g., when there's two ai.cpp files, each obj file must be placed to a specific, different, location, otherwise msvc will think that 'only one .obj file is enough' and break during linking.
20100324 18:54:41< timotei> oh yeah.
20100324 18:55:04< fendrin> Okay, open a terminal and type "sudo apt-get build-dep wesnoth
20100324 18:55:06< fendrin> "
20100324 18:55:09< Crab__> timotei: basically, the fastest way (apart from downloading a fixed project file) for that is to open the project file in the text editor and see all the files which are not good atm, and fix them by copypasting&editing stuff about output folders.
20100324 18:55:40< Crab__> timotei: or, use ubuntu, and, in some time, I hope to find a few hours to finish the cmake recipe for MSVC
20100324 18:56:09< fendrin> That should install all dependencies for the stable version of wesnoth.
20100324 18:56:23< fendrin> Download the source tar.gz and extract it.
20100324 18:56:46< fendrin> Or better, fetch svn.
20100324 18:56:56< timotei> well yeah, but that means 
20100324 18:57:01< timotei> I'll built it for ubuntu...
20100324 18:57:07< timotei> so only there I shall run it
20100324 18:57:23< fendrin> svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/
20100324 18:57:59< fendrin> Yeah sure, it will only run on ubuntu, except you are going to cross compile it. But I have never done cross compiling for windows. 
20100324 18:58:05< timotei> :D
20100324 18:58:10< timotei> ok, thanks
20100324 18:58:16< timotei> I'll install ubuntu/start the VM
20100324 18:58:18< Soliton> Ivanovic: i already mentioned the way to fix it. will you first branch 1.8 and then release or the other way around?
20100324 18:58:19< timotei> and do that
20100324 18:58:52< fendrin> timotei: Okay, tell me when you are ready to proceed.
20100324 18:59:01 * Soliton goes home.
20100324 18:59:27< Crab__> timotei: alternative: also, you can also use a recent version of svn checkout under windows with .exe taken from 'hidden' windows release build and libs taken from wesnoth distribution or from my archive -  it'll be enough  for plugin development . ask loonycyborg about the location of the .exe
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20100324 19:02:10< timotei> in the meantime, I'm gonna read about the eclipse plugin
20100324 19:03:50< Ivanovic> Soliton: i release first and branch then
20100324 19:04:15< Ivanovic> Soliton: the main problem atm is that there is no *official* mp server to connect to with current trunk set to the version 1.8.0
20100324 19:05:07< fendrin> timotei: We don't have much on the wiki page right now.
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20100324 19:05:58< timotei> I was talking in general:P, about eclipse plugin dev
20100324 19:06:03< timotei> and some WML
20100324 19:07:15< fendrin> ah
20100324 19:10:51-!- grzywacz [~grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100324 19:17:01-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 19:17:28< boucman> hey all
20100324 19:17:36< timotei> hellou boucman:D
20100324 19:18:37< boucman> so, what's up ?
20100324 19:19:18< timotei> well... VMWare just crashed :))
20100324 19:19:29< timotei> can't belive it
20100324 19:20:05< timotei> OMG:O, the VMWare is AWESOME
20100324 19:20:20< timotei> just crashed, and when I fired it up, it was just like a moment ago:D
20100324 19:21:47< timotei> fendrin, what eclipse should we use?
20100324 19:21:57< loonycyborg> timotei: Crab was referring to this binary: http://files.wesnoth.org/hidden/win/
20100324 19:22:15< fendrin> timotei: The version you get with karmic koala and apt-get install eclipse.
20100324 19:22:36< timotei> 10.9 is karmic right?
20100324 19:22:45< timotei> 10.4 is hardy heron
20100324 19:22:47< fendrin> yes
20100324 19:22:47< timotei> isn't it?
20100324 19:22:58< timotei> at least I know something about linux, too:D
20100324 19:23:03< fendrin> :-)
20100324 19:24:51-!- uzyszkodnik [~uzyszkodn@aagx56.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: mroczne sily mroku wzywaja]
20100324 19:29:02< timotei> it's 3.5
20100324 19:30:17< fendrin> Yes. Seems fairly stable to me.
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20100324 19:37:00< timotei> uou, Eclipse has an impressive plug-in development wizard and tools
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20100324 19:40:40< shadowmaster> hm.
20100324 19:40:57< shadowmaster> couldn't tell. They only taught us how to create crappy Java programs using basic OOP
20100324 19:44:41-!- gabba [~gabba@70.35.163.201] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 19:56:17< boucman> zookeeper: can I assign patch 1549 to you (ANL upgrade)
20100324 19:56:57< zookeeper> boucman, sure. i'm not sure what i'm going to do about it though, since presumably we want to get rid of ANL in 1.9 and i won't be trying to apply such a big patch for 1.8.
20100324 19:57:23< boucman> ok
20100324 19:57:45< boucman> do we want to have a "ANL based" scenario instead or drop ANL entirely ?
20100324 19:57:52-!- Dawn [~808a0d77@gateway/web/freenode/x-vwpjcmwvldytczay] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 19:58:03< boucman> (i.e is there a better ANL floating, or is the work/interest ratio not good enough)
20100324 19:58:06< timotei> define: ANL
20100324 19:58:14< boucman> A New Land
20100324 19:58:17-!- veaviticus [~83d4c6b2@gateway/web/freenode/x-ydrpmwvijreusgnq] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100324 19:58:20< timotei> thanks:D
20100324 19:58:44< shadowmaster> shikadibot: ANL?
20100324 19:58:44< shikadibot> ANL: A New Land
20100324 19:58:50< zookeeper> boucman, i don't know
20100324 19:58:55< boucman> k
20100324 19:59:43< zookeeper> either we're gonna try to do that multiplayer campaign, mainline some other, better-written UMC scenario or just create something new ANL-like
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20100324 20:00:10< Dawn> hey, new guy here, whats the best way to get started understanding the source code? can't find documentation
20100324 20:01:10< shadowmaster> there is devdocs.wesnoth.org
20100324 20:01:17< boucman> Dawn: if you did the basic steps (compile+play) my advice would be to set yourself a target, a feature to add, a bug to solve and work on it
20100324 20:01:39< shadowmaster> and what boucman said :)
20100324 20:02:08< Dawn> i was looking at the easyCoding Ai suggestions, just didn't know where to start
20100324 20:04:30< timotei> any GSOC "future" mentor online?
20100324 20:05:03< timotei> I want to know, when doing the planning for the project development, what is the start date?
20100324 20:05:23< timotei> starting from 26 april  - the official gsoc start date?
20100324 20:05:33< timotei> or even earlier?
20100324 20:05:40< boucman> timotei: i'm here
20100324 20:05:46< timotei> ok
20100324 20:06:00< timotei> the applications are due on 9 april
20100324 20:06:00 * boucman just added an easycoding (7.3)
20100324 20:07:49-!- DesertPanther_ [~Khalid@41.234.232.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100324 20:07:51-!- Crab_ [~Crab_@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100324 20:08:06< mordante> servus
20100324 20:08:12< Crab_> hi, mordante
20100324 20:08:14< timotei> hello mordante
20100324 20:08:20< timotei> wb crab_
20100324 20:08:24< mordante> hi Crab_ 
20100324 20:08:27< mordante> hi timotei 
20100324 20:08:31< Crab_> timotei: hi
20100324 20:08:32< shadowmaster> hola mordante  :P
20100324 20:08:42< mordante> hello shadowmaster 
20100324 20:08:53< timotei> Crab_, if you can review my last question, can you answer it?
20100324 20:09:10< Crab_> timotei: will take a look...
20100324 20:09:19< timotei> I think I'll stick with the umc plugin :)
20100324 20:09:26< boucman> hey mordante
20100324 20:09:29< mordante> hi boucman 
20100324 20:09:38< boucman> mordante: I'm running trunk, waiting for crash :P
20100324 20:09:39< mordante> boucman, did you see my message for you?
20100324 20:09:48< mordante> ok
20100324 20:10:06< boucman> yes, not sure what line I should be tracking, but if I find anything suspicious i'll tell you
20100324 20:10:17< mordante> I hope you only get an error on the output
20100324 20:10:38< boucman> so do I,  so do I...
20100324 20:11:28< mordante> boucman, you should get an message on the console, specifically " placement of the content has failed, hope the window can save us.\n"
20100324 20:11:28< UnknownDevice> Hey Crab_, is it ok if I ask you a question? 
20100324 20:11:36< Crab_> UnknownDevice: of course
20100324 20:11:46< mordante> if Wesnoth only shows that message and keeps working all is well
20100324 20:12:58< UnknownDevice> It this layout ok,  my profile has the questionnaire http://wiki.wesnoth.org/User:UnknownDevice and proposal has it's own page like so http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC_SpriteSheets_UnknownDevice which links to my profile with the Questionnaire.
20100324 20:13:31< UnknownDevice> I'm using this layout because I have more then one proposal, so I just wanted know if this layout was ok.
20100324 20:13:34< mordante> UnknownDevice, rather on one page
20100324 20:13:53< mordante> that way it's easier for us to read everything
20100324 20:14:22< UnknownDevice> Is it better to have it the questionnaire on every proposal page even if I have multiple proposals? 
20100324 20:14:29< boucman> mordante: someone else used a layout similar to UnknownDevice, gabba IIRC
20100324 20:14:34< boucman> (and for similar reasons)
20100324 20:14:52< UnknownDevice> I don't mind which one I use, I just want to make it easier for everyone else to read.
20100324 20:14:53< Crab_> UnknownDevice: this layout is ok. insert {{SoC2010}} to top of your user page, please.
20100324 20:14:57< boucman> UnknownDevice: you might want to look how he did, you might find him by looking to other student pages
20100324 20:14:58< UnknownDevice> Alright
20100324 20:15:09< mordante> boucman, yes if UnknownDevice device also wants to make multiple proposals
20100324 20:15:32< mordante> I still prefer 1 page per student
20100324 20:16:01< Crab_> mordante: if there are two different proposals...
20100324 20:16:10< boucman> any student with a forum account that needs to be added to the GSOC group, while I'm at it ?
20100324 20:16:13< mordante> Crab_, ?
20100324 20:16:21< UnknownDevice> I have a forum account
20100324 20:16:32< boucman> UnknownDevice: same handle ?
20100324 20:16:33< mordante> UnknownDevice, just make sure you link them to eachother
20100324 20:16:34< UnknownDevice> My username is "UnknownDevice"
20100324 20:16:35< UnknownDevice> yeah
20100324 20:16:47< Crab_> mordante: do you still prefer  1 page per student, even if a student has two different proposals ?
20100324 20:16:57< boucman> done
20100324 20:17:11< boucman> gabba: around ?
20100324 20:17:20< UnknownDevice> I'll be linking my propals in my questionnaire, and vise versa
20100324 20:17:21< gabba> boucman: yep
20100324 20:17:22< mordante> Crab_, no then not per se
20100324 20:17:27< gabba> boucman: hi
20100324 20:17:42< boucman> gabba: you're a potential gsoc student, arn't you ?
20100324 20:17:43< mordante> I still think it's better to focus on one proposal
20100324 20:17:43< UnknownDevice> Thanks boucman
20100324 20:18:10< gabba> boucman: yes, as my two proposal subtly indicate
20100324 20:18:10< boucman> mordante: I agree, but this early in the process, i think it's fair to look at a few and focus later
20100324 20:18:14< boucman> :)
20100324 20:18:36< boucman> you're not in the forum GSOC group, though, your forum handle is gabba, isn't it ?
20100324 20:18:49< timotei> So, Crab_: the starting date for planning the project dev, should be 9 april or 26 april - official GSOC start
20100324 20:18:55< gabba> boucman: right, it's gabba, and I just checked, I'm not in the GSOC group
20100324 20:19:09< UnknownDevice> Hey Crab_ is my setup ok now, or is there anything else you'd like me to change? 
20100324 20:19:19< boucman> gabba: you're in
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20100324 20:19:44< gabba> boucman: thnx
20100324 20:20:16< boucman> np
20100324 20:20:55< gabba> Let's see... any Replay or Multiplayer wizards around?
20100324 20:21:01-!- qemqemqem_ [~quassel@urwireless-dhcp-128-151-24-154.wireless.rochester.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100324 20:21:09< timotei> boucman
20100324 20:21:13< timotei> or mordante
20100324 20:21:14< boucman> yup
20100324 20:21:16< timotei> " What do you want to especially concentrate on?"
20100324 20:21:25< timotei> from the questionnaire, what actually I have to write here
20100324 20:21:30< timotei> ?
20100324 20:21:33< Crab_> UnknownDevice: I see a student page, which is ok, I see one project page for spritesheets. they're not crosslinked yet - you said you'll do so.
20100324 20:21:49< Crab_> UnknownDevice: you'll add another student page later, yes ?
20100324 20:22:06< gabba> I need some advice on an eventual refactoring of the undo stack/merging with replays
20100324 20:22:10< UnknownDevice> Crab_: Yeah I plan on adding one later
20100324 20:22:25< UnknownDevice> Crab_: And I'll be cross linking them once I finish the questionnaire
20100324 20:22:26< Crab_> UnknownDevice: then (except the required cross-linking), all is ok.
20100324 20:22:41< UnknownDevice> Crab_: Thanks again for the help then :)
20100324 20:22:47< Crab_> UnknownDevice: glad to help
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20100324 20:23:15< boucman> timotei: section 2.4 as a whole is not a "strict" section, it's more of a general context to write your proposal, we want you to analyze the proposal, what's in wesnoth, what problems you expect to find, what you think is the point of the proposal etc...
20100324 20:23:27< gabba> Crab_: I had a go at what you suggested yesterday (the prototype and all that)
20100324 20:23:38< timotei> ok boucman
20100324 20:23:50< boucman> i don't remember writing that particular sentence so not sure what it means, I think it's just to push you to say more than "I will work on the spritesheet proposal"
20100324 20:23:53< mordante> timotei, regarding project start date we often try to get students up and running asap
20100324 20:24:00< Crab_> gabba: that's great. how it went ? any ideas ?
20100324 20:24:29 * gabba emerges from the wesnoth code, covered in bits of replay
20100324 20:24:49< timotei> ok, so I will take the "start time" as the next week.
20100324 20:25:03< mordante> timotei, and we generally want the student to become a developer before the project starts and Darkas already supplied enough patches to become a developer
20100324 20:25:20< gabba> Crab_: well, it was enlightening
20100324 20:26:00< timotei> Yeah, I saw that :D
20100324 20:26:03< mordante> timotei, we also try to review the proposals soon to make them better
20100324 20:26:20< mordante> but of course you have time until the application dead-line
20100324 20:26:44< timotei> ok, understood
20100324 20:26:49< gabba> Crab_: I think that for my idea to work, I'd have to do something like integrating the undo stack to replays
20100324 20:27:35< gabba> Crab_: since replays are used to sync the game, and the undo code is currently entirely separate
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20100324 20:28:47< Crab_> gabba: you're thinking about something like 'replay unwind' ?
20100324 20:29:03< gabba> Crab_: Basically, yes
20100324 20:29:25< gabba> Crab_: at least for select actions (which are already supported by undo)
20100324 20:29:57< Crab_> gabba: btw, has your 'replay enlightenment' made your enlightened enough to fix https://gna.org/bugs/?15560 ?
20100324 20:31:29< gabba> Crab_: At first sight, not yet, but I'll take a look later
20100324 20:31:52< UnknownDevice> Crab_: Is there any rust to have that second proposal written for tonight? It's just I have like three projects to have finished for Friday, so I'm kind of busy until Friday.
20100324 20:32:48< Crab_> UnknownDevice: no, no problems with that
20100324 20:33:14< UnknownDevice> Crab_: Great! Well I've gota go finished this work, thanks again for everything.
20100324 20:33:16< Crab_> UnknownDevice: what is important is to start active work towards one of the proposals
20100324 20:33:33< timotei> fendrin are you online?
20100324 20:34:09< Crab_> gabba: yes, I think that 'replay rewind' is a feature that can work, together with selective sending of data..
20100324 20:34:50< timotei> Crab_, have some questions regarding umc plugin
20100324 20:34:53< Crab_> gabba: e.g. send to Ally1 and Ally2, don't send to Enemy1 and Enemy2 and Enemy3.. then, on undo, send a rewind command for Ally1 and Ally2
20100324 20:34:55< Crab_> timotei: yes
20100324 20:34:59< Gambit> MP moderators: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29309
20100324 20:35:03< timotei> tools like wmllint and wmlindent 
20100324 20:35:05-!- ryaether [~ryan@173-26-127-85.client.mchsi.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 20:35:09< Gambit> The user seems to believe one of you would use a double wildcard IP ban :)
20100324 20:35:17< timotei> where can I find more info about this? On the WML reference isn't anything like this
20100324 20:35:37< gabba> Crab_: I think I'd take the occasion to refactor the replay mechanism to use a proper Command design pattern, instead of the current Giant Switch-Case in do_replay_handle()
20100324 20:35:58-!- veaviticus [~83d4c6b2@gateway/web/freenode/x-vpemsctlwynaarig] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 20:36:15< gabba> Crab_: and each Command object would support serializing and deserializing to/from WML objects, to allow network transmission
20100324 20:36:40< boucman> new project idea : http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_WML_Debugging
20100324 20:37:45< Crab_> gabba: on than, you should quickly (1-2 weeks) make a external prototype or a design document - that'll greatly improve your proposal
20100324 20:38:00< esr> mordante: bug #15359 has a crash report from rc1 dated today.  I think it's still an issue.
20100324 20:38:14< gabba> Crab_: design document: no problem
20100324 20:38:17-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100324 20:38:27< boucman> wesbot: bug 15359
20100324 20:38:27< wesbot> Bug #15359  Assigned to: Mark de Wever <mordante>  Status: Ready For Test  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100324 20:38:30< wesbot> Summary: Lobby crash when viewing player list
20100324 20:38:33< wesbot> Original submission: Wesnoth crashed after viewing the list of players in othe
20100324 20:38:36< wesbot> r games. I was able to repeat it several times. It seemed to occur only when the
20100324 20:38:39< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?15359
20100324 20:39:02< gabba> Crab_: the working prototype we were discussing yesterday: I don't think I'll manage something functional enough to support my proposal
20100324 20:42:28< gabba> Crab_: I'd either need to do some pretty serious refactoring already...
20100324 20:43:40< gabba> Crab_: or to basically completely ignore the replay/undo code and hack something up using Wesnoth as basically a network stack and graphical engine (exaggerating a bit, but it's almost that)
20100324 20:43:53< gabba> Crab_: and I don't think there's much of a point in doing that
20100324 20:44:59< boucman> gabba, UnknownDevice: since you are both working on spritesheet, a common advice...
20100324 20:45:24< Crab_> gabba: ok about the working prototype
20100324 20:45:55< boucman> you should discuss with artists about their need, probably by starting a spritesheet discussion thread in the forum and/or discussing with artists on irc (thespaceinvader being the most available one)
20100324 20:46:05< Crab_> gabba: but, you can use a 'working example code' as a design document
20100324 20:46:11< boucman> if you start a forum thread, make a common one ;)
20100324 20:46:18< Crab_> gabba: e.g., something external to wesnoth 
20100324 20:46:52< Crab_> gabba: e.g. just demonstrate the pattern that you're going to use in code
20100324 20:47:05< Crab_> gabba: of course, if you prefer words&graphs, that's ok, too
20100324 20:47:08< gabba> boucman: thanks for the advice. Where do artists hang out on irc?
20100324 20:47:26< boucman> very few do, that's why I mentionned tsi
20100324 20:47:42< boucman> artists use mainly forum for discussion since they need to post images very often
20100324 20:49:06< gabba> boucman: thespaceinvader comes here on #wesnoth-dev?
20100324 20:49:16< shadowmaster> occasionally
20100324 20:49:20< gabba> ok
20100324 20:49:20< boucman> yes
20100324 20:49:49< boucman> jetrel isn't here often, though, and his input would be valuable, that's why I advised on using the forum
20100324 20:51:12< gabba> Crab_: I'll do UML diagrams first, of course, but I can think of some demo code with stubs. But if it's just to see the code structure, a lot of tools generate this for you from the UML in one click, so...
20100324 20:51:32< Crab_> gabba: yes, if you prefer working with uml, that's ok :)
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20100324 20:55:15< gabba> boucman: wouldn't the Art Development forum be most appropriate to discuss sprite sheets?
20100324 20:55:28< gabba> boucman: maybe you could grant access to GSoC students?
20100324 20:55:31< boucman> mordante: a feature I miss in the new lobby (mentionning in case it's a quick fix for 1.8.1) is that when you click on a user in a game, that game is not selected...
20100324 20:56:09< boucman> gabba: i'm not sure what write access GSoC students have...
20100324 20:56:31< gabba> I can post in Developers' Discussions but not Art Development
20100324 20:56:53< mordante> esr, that report is less than one hour old, so my assertion of this afternoon was correct at the time ;-) 
20100324 20:57:03< boucman> makes sense... 
20100324 20:57:12< mordante> esr, but joking aside I think I fixed it yesterday and boucman tests it
20100324 20:57:31< mordante> esr, I've never been able to reproduce it
20100324 20:57:58< esr> mordante: OK, please mark it Fixed then.
20100324 20:58:04< boucman> gabba: post it in dev discussion I guess... if it doesn't get enough reply i'll ping the right people/move it/do something about it...
20100324 20:58:13< gabba> boucman: ok
20100324 20:58:18< boucman> esr: i'm testing it right now, though the crash is random
20100324 20:58:22< boucman> so not fixed yet :)
20100324 20:58:48< mordante> esr, status is still ready for test, but I'll post a reply
20100324 21:00:36< mordante> boucman, hmm might be a nice feature, but ilor knows that area better
20100324 21:01:12< boucman> ok, i'll ping ilor_ when he's around
20100324 21:02:03< ilor_> boucman: with all th elobby unstability that feature got lost, as did tab-completion
20100324 21:02:24< boucman> ilor_: 1.8.1, i guess...
20100324 21:02:28< ilor_> if 1.8.0 lobby works well otherwise I'll probably have time to do these
20100324 21:03:01< ilor_> click on player to select game should be very easy actually
20100324 21:03:43< boucman> double click then close the "friend" menu selects the right game...
20100324 21:04:23< mordante> esr, posted reply in the bug report
20100324 21:05:41< gabba> Sprite Sheets thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29311
20100324 21:06:24< gabba> UnknownDevice: you're welcome to participate in the thread ^^
20100324 21:08:02< mordante> I'm off night
20100324 21:08:41< timotei> night!
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20100324 21:13:07< timotei> hey Crab_
20100324 21:13:16< Crab_> hi again
20100324 21:13:23< timotei> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode_Timotei21#4.29_Project
20100324 21:13:28< Crab_> looking...
20100324 21:13:33< timotei> I've written some infos for the project area
20100324 21:13:49< timotei> need to dream tonight about how and if add any more features :D
20100324 21:14:56< Crab_> timotei: I suggest that you look at Xtext
20100324 21:15:17< Crab_> timotei: it might do a lot of useful things for us, if used right.
20100324 21:15:25< timotei> yes
20100324 21:15:36< timotei> it's in the opened tabs list, so I won't miss it
20100324 21:15:45< Crab_> good
20100324 21:17:31< boucman> if anybody's interested, here is an exemple of a very good/complete proposal http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20100324 21:17:37< boucman> (from last year)
20100324 21:18:46< timotei> wow, that sure is the most awesome proposal I've seen ever :D
20100324 21:19:17< timotei> nice to get some tips from that one
20100324 21:19:19< boucman> yeah, indeed, very in depth :)
20100324 21:19:52< boucman> you don't need to _all_ do something that huge, but you'll notice that Crab_ had really studied the subject for his proposal
20100324 21:20:18< boucman> a good proposal is more about studying the problem and showing you've understood it than "writing an idea"
20100324 21:23:03< General_Fou_Fou> impressive proposal
20100324 21:26:24< timotei> wow crab_, just followed the video, and it's very impressive what the tools offers
20100324 21:26:33< timotei> I'll study it tomorrow more in-depth:D
20100324 21:27:07< Crab_> timotei: yes. the macroses are a pain to deal with, through...
20100324 21:27:21< Crab_> timotei: note that there are several contexts in which we can read wml
20100324 21:27:41< Crab_> timotei: one is 'expanding all' - then it's easy enough to check the expanded document
20100324 21:28:01< Crab_> timotei: another, is when we don't want to expand, like when the user edits the data in his scenario
20100324 21:28:14< timotei> I'll study it tomorrow more in-depth:D
20100324 21:28:15< Crab_> timotei: but, we actually want to check based on the expanded document
20100324 21:28:25< Crab_> since otherwise some nodes might be missing (hidden)
20100324 21:28:32< timotei> yes
20100324 21:28:37< Crab_> also note that if we #define MULTIPLAYER the document might suddenly change
20100324 21:29:09< timotei> Well, that's for sure that I will need to use regex a lot:D
20100324 21:29:14< Crab_> so, if you use Xtest, you need to trick it into either working on macro-expanded document or into ingoring macroses
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20100324 21:29:42< Crab_> timotei: also note that macro-expanding can take minutes
20100324 21:30:07< Crab_> timotei: e.g. if you macro-expand  data/_main.cfg :)
20100324 21:30:14< Crab_> on a slow computer
20100324 21:30:29< Crab_> so, static verification is not tricky...
20100324 21:31:20< Crab_> code a java-based wml preprocessor, process data, get a huge file with debug info about lines, hit it with wmllint and a wml schema verifier, collect errors, add markers to original lines, display them in eclipse
20100324 21:33:21< Crab_> timotei: I actually suggest limiting the power of wesnoth macros, to allow better error messages for the 99% of the cases where the macro system isn't abused too strongly
20100324 21:34:40< timotei> ok
20100324 21:34:54< timotei> but, like I said there, where I can find more info about wmllint
20100324 21:34:57< Crab_> timotei: e.g., in most cases, the macro contains a vaild wml fragment or a value . but there's a few tricky macros which contain invalid wml fragments, but, when combined, they form a valid fragmetn
20100324 21:35:22< Gambit> e.g. {FOREACH b} and {NEXT b}
20100324 21:36:23< Crab_> timotei: for 'safe' macros, you can make error checking better, a lot, by requiring the macroexpansion to be valid wml fragment. this'll improve error reporting a lot
20100324 21:37:13< Crab_> timotei: about wmllint: read the source code,  read https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2010-02/msg00078.html , ping esr
20100324 21:38:14< timotei> okey
20100324 21:38:17< timotei> thanks for tips
20100324 21:38:20< Crab_> np
20100324 21:38:29< timotei> now I have to go
20100324 21:38:35< timotei> we'll talk more tomorrow
20100324 21:38:38< timotei> good night
20100324 21:38:43< timotei> bye everyone
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20100324 21:46:01< epyon> Anyone here can answer me why is boost-asio listed among the keywords for Wesnoth in the socghop app?
20100324 21:47:07< boucman> epyon: we plan to port our network stack to boost-asio
20100324 21:47:12< boucman> it's on our idea page
20100324 21:49:10< epyon> ouch, havn't noticed it
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20100324 21:49:27< epyon> how much boostified is Wesnoth codebase?
20100324 21:50:24< boucman> we don't use asio (yet) but we do use other bits of boost, so our packagers are used to packaging it
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20100324 21:50:40< epyon> shared_ptr's?
20100324 21:51:59< Crab_> epyon: fgrep -Rn include ./ | grep boost | sed 's/.*include //g' | sort | uniq                 gives us http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/JQZv8hEa
20100324 21:52:09< boucman> thx Crab_ :)
20100324 21:52:55< epyon> without uniq it would tell much more ;>
20100324 21:53:58< Crab_> epyon: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/1qJGDseV
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20100324 21:54:10< Crab_> I've left the file names, as well. 
20100324 21:55:21< epyon> Aaaah, a nice amount of bind <3
20100324 21:56:10< Crab_> epyon: or see http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/7cg5TxTd - with counts
20100324 21:57:57< epyon> hmm, lines 40 and 43...
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20100324 22:02:29< epyon> woah, STL/Boost-like coding conventions <3
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20100324 22:28:32< Ivanovic> Soliton: please do update the *official* mp server to accept 1.8.0
20100324 22:28:56< Ivanovic> currently with a fresh build of trunk it is not possible to connect to *any* official wesnoth server which makes testing, uhm, difficult...
20100324 22:29:02< Ivanovic> my current version string: Battle for Wesnoth v1.8.0 (41738)
20100324 22:29:22< Rhonda> You are ahead of your time, Ivanovic :)
20100324 22:29:24< Ivanovic> when clicking "join official server": 20100324 22:28:11 error network: caught network::error: Dieser Server benötigt die Version »1.5.*svn«. Ihr verwendet Version »1.8.0«
20100324 22:29:29< Ivanovic> Rhonda: no, i am not
20100324 22:29:52< Ivanovic> Rhonda: i bumped the version today for the final tests so that we can check for one day that everything really *IS* correct
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20100324 22:30:16< Rhonda> Planned release date, 1st of april? :P
20100324 22:30:19< Soliton> Ivanovic: done.
20100324 22:30:59< Ivanovic> Soliton: and how to change the string to make a locally hosted server that is built with the 1.8 source tarball accept clients from 1.8.*?
20100324 22:31:08< Soliton> Ivanovic: any reason why you can't branch first?
20100324 22:31:10< Ivanovic> Soliton: just changing game_config::version won't work
20100324 22:31:30< Ivanovic> Soliton: because there are changes post the release of 1.8 that are meant for 1.8 and trunk
20100324 22:31:37< Soliton> that way we can put all the stable version stuff in without having to revert it a second later.
20100324 22:31:51< Soliton> Ivanovic: that's no reason.
20100324 22:31:59< Ivanovic> and i won't run a pot-update on trunk until 1.9.0 is about to be released
20100324 22:32:02< Soliton> Ivanovic: you can do those either way.
20100324 22:32:06< Ivanovic> this *is* a reason since this way the files are all in sync
20100324 22:32:26< Ivanovic> (yeah, files that translators send in for 1.8 are directly commited to trunk, too)
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20100324 22:32:48< Soliton> if you read what i said it's quite irrelevant.
20100324 22:32:54< Ivanovic> and the version changes after branching are basically one change, those for translations and the likes are several commits to port over
20100324 22:33:54< Ivanovic> what are the changes that are 1.8 specific that you would have to directly revert?
20100324 22:34:22< Soliton> all the version checks.
20100324 22:34:30< Ivanovic> okay, exactly one commit
20100324 22:34:44< Soliton> you can always put anything in one commit.
20100324 22:34:45< Ivanovic> if you want to i can run the revert command for you right after branching it off...
20100324 22:35:23< Ivanovic> there will be several commits for translations eg from esr, AI0867 and mordante from what i heard so far
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20100324 22:35:56< Ivanovic> porting this stuff over and running a pot-update on both would be some more stuff to do
20100324 22:36:14< Soliton> i guess i'm missing something.
20100324 22:36:30< Soliton> what exactly is the issue to do the branch first then the release?
20100324 22:36:51< Ivanovic> the issue is that *after* tagging 1.8 there will be string changes
20100324 22:36:57< Ivanovic> those apply for both trunk and 1.8
20100324 22:37:20< Ivanovic> together with those string changes comes a pot update which will be the last for trunk for "quite some time"
20100324 22:37:33< Soliton> so those are post release?
20100324 22:37:38< Ivanovic> exactly
20100324 22:37:58< Ivanovic> since otherwise translations would suddenly be incomplete in 1.8
20100324 22:38:17< Ivanovic> Soliton: and i can still not connect to the official server using 1.8.0
20100324 22:38:29 * Soliton shrugs
20100324 22:38:33< Ivanovic> it tries to redirect me to some server that only accepts 1.5*
20100324 22:38:41< Ivanovic> 20100324 22:36:31 error network: caught network::error: Dieser Server benötigt die Version »1.5.*svn«. Ihr verwendet Version »1.8.0«
20100324 22:40:09< Ivanovic> though it should redirect to the one running on 14997 which also does accept 1.7.14 and 1.7.15
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20100324 22:44:38< Soliton> when will 1.8 be released?
20100324 22:51:36-!- Zarel is now known as Zarel|
20100324 22:51:43< zookeeper> gabba, i'm pretty sure doing any extensive build-time magic on the spritesheets isn't going to be acceptable. on an ipod or other such versions maybe, if it really helps up performance, but otherwise not really.
20100324 22:52:04-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100324 22:52:36< Zarel> Re: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29311
20100324 22:52:44< boucman> zookeeper: ??? build time is... build time, why would it pause a pb on embedded devices ?
20100324 22:52:45< zookeeper> that is, the images and WML can't really be different in svn and in releases IMO. it'd just create quite some confusion.
20100324 22:52:52< Zarel> It may be possible to write a script that can convert an existing set of images into a sprite sheet.
20100324 22:53:46< zookeeper> boucman, i was just referring to the mess we'd have if regular art contributors without svn checkouts would have a different set of images and data to work with than those working with svn
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20100324 22:54:19< boucman> my personal approch would be to have some sort of "alias" wml file stating "if image xxx doesn't exist, then replace with image yyy" where image yyy would contain the ~CROP() argument, and code the rest on the engine side
20100324 22:54:33< boucman> that plus a tool to build the WML+images would be good
20100324 22:54:46< gabba> zookeeper: I don't see why
20100324 22:54:49< boucman> (maybe even something building the images from the WML
20100324 22:55:06< gabba> zookeeper: basically, you'd have the "source" directory which people edit,
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20100324 22:55:16< boucman> (that's just an approch of mine, not a requirement or THE way to go)
20100324 22:55:25< gabba> zookeeper: and the "generated" directory which the engine uses, but nobody edits manually
20100324 22:55:27< zookeeper> gabba, ok, in your thread you said the artist can ignore the system if they want...if that's true then fine
20100324 22:55:33< Zarel> I mean, it shouldn't be too difficult to build sprite-sheet + corresponding WML from separate PNGs + corresponding WML
20100324 22:56:46< Zarel> By the way, can I get access to the Developers' Discussions forum?
20100324 22:57:18< gabba> boucman: interesting approach, but I still prefer mine: I believe it would be less confusing for most people
20100324 22:58:42< boucman> gabba: ok, as I said, it's just food for thought... 
20100324 22:58:51< gabba> zookeeper: wait, ok, I understand better what you mean
20100324 22:58:53< zookeeper> gabba, i'm not saying your plan would not work, but it seems quite a lot more complicated than what i'd have envisioned for spritesheets
20100324 22:59:22< boucman> my first read of your proposal is that it's abit confusing but i can't tell if it's a problem in the approch or in the description...
20100324 23:00:28< gabba> zookeeper: basically, you want either work only with spritesheets or individual images, but not keep both in parallel
20100324 23:00:55< gabba> zookeeper: but I think this flies in the face of the way artists like to work
20100324 23:01:24< boucman> gabba: the tricky parts is that some artists seem to prefer working with spritesheets
20100324 23:01:27< zookeeper> gabba, anyway, just out of curiosity: couldn't you get equal memory usage benefits if the engine just created the spritesheets when loading from the individual images and mapped the filenames to the right coordinates?
20100324 23:01:31< boucman> jetrel IIRC is one of them
20100324 23:01:58< zookeeper> that is, images or WML wouldn't change, the game would just create a big spritesheet when loading all the individual images
20100324 23:02:39< Gambit> Crazy idea: Is it possible to include splitter/combiner with regular installs instead of just source?
20100324 23:02:46< Gambit> Then everyone can make themselves happy individually.
20100324 23:03:16< gabba> zookeeper: I thought about that too. However loading times (especially on small devices) or disk space wouldn't benefit at all
20100324 23:03:46< zookeeper> gabba, sure, i was just thinking of the memory usage
20100324 23:04:31< Ivanovic> Soliton: tagging in 14h, announcing in about one week
20100324 23:04:39< gabba> boucman: that's why I'm proposing: INPUT: individual .png or handmade spritesheets, OUTPUT: automatically generated spritesheets
20100324 23:04:48< Ivanovic> branching off into branches/1.8 in 14h+24h
20100324 23:04:54< gabba> a bit more complexity to keep the best of both worlds
20100324 23:05:00< zookeeper> anyways, i've been doing some light thinking before on what kind of spritesheets might suit us, i could try to type some of that down tomorrow
20100324 23:05:24< boucman> zookeeper: feel free to edit the idea page
20100324 23:05:27< esr> gabba: I have seen no explanation of wehy spritesheets might be a good idea, anywhere.
20100324 23:05:49< gabba> esr: neither did I :)
20100324 23:05:49< boucman> gabba: you might want to detail the kind of tools you plan to write on your proposal
20100324 23:06:07< gabba> esr: I'm leaving that to the person who posted the sprite sheets idea :)
20100324 23:06:58< gabba> boucman: there's the modified ClanLib tool with command line interface, but nothing else
20100324 23:07:01< Ivanovic> esr: mainly sprite sheets give a better compression rate
20100324 23:07:16< esr> Ivanovic: Ahhh.
20100324 23:07:22< gabba> boucman: apart from adding some calls from the scons/cmake/automake/whatevermake
20100324 23:07:36< boucman> hmm
20100324 23:07:44< Ivanovic> two reasons: single sprite images are smaller than harddrive clusters and several rather similar "sub" images in one image compress quite well
20100324 23:07:45< esr> Doesn't seem like a huge win with storage media so cheap, but OK.
20100324 23:07:55< boucman> with that approch, you would be finished in 1/4 of SoC time :)
20100324 23:07:55< Ivanovic> for desktop computers it is no win
20100324 23:08:02< Ivanovic> for mobile devices it is a win
20100324 23:08:20< gabba> boucman: hehe, why do you think I picked this as a backup proposal ;)
20100324 23:08:52< boucman> esr: IIUC sdl keeps png "as is" in memory, so the compression gain of big png vs multiple small png is also a gain in mem footprint
20100324 23:09:09< boucman> gabba: :)
20100324 23:11:59< gabba> Gambit: I have to take a closer look at those tools
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20100324 23:14:23< esr> boucman: That's interesting about the in-memory compression.
20100324 23:14:46< boucman> esr: that's my understanding, i didn't check myself
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20100324 23:18:42< gabba> Soliton, zookeer (and other WML wizards): what do you think of the idea of "replay rewind", basically merging undo into replay
20100324 23:19:17< gabba> gabba: I'm starting to realize it's pretty much the same thing / a prerequisite to my "Share undoable moves with allies" idea
20100324 23:20:06< Soliton> elaborate.
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20100324 23:22:52< gabba> Soliton: there's my conversation with Crab_ above, about this
20100324 23:23:19< gabba> Soliton: and I'll provide more details in a few minutes
20100324 23:23:51< Soliton> lately i can't keep up with all the chatter in here...
20100324 23:24:43< Soliton> Ivanovic: login should work now.
20100324 23:24:53< Ivanovic> Soliton: yes, it does
20100324 23:25:10< Ivanovic> and the amount of chat will likely go back once the accepted students are known
20100324 23:27:45< zookeeper> gabba, if you mean a system where you could, at any point when playing, rewind to watch previous turns, then yes, that'd be really nice
20100324 23:28:00< gabba> Soliton, zookeeper: Ok, I'll attempt a summary
20100324 23:28:22< zookeeper> being able to easily and quickly review some moves from previous turns is something i've always wanted
20100324 23:28:35< Soliton> probably very hard to do though.
20100324 23:28:43< zookeeper> so i'd imagine
20100324 23:28:52< gabba> Currently, replays are used to keep players in sync: basically they receive a replay and run do_replay_handle on it
20100324 23:29:15< zookeeper> anyways, i'm gonna go to bed in a few minutes...
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20100324 23:29:39< gabba> On the other hand undos are managed with a completely different system: a stack of undo objects
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20100324 23:30:25< gabba> What I'd like to do is to transmit actions such as moves to clients, and later tell them "undo it"
20100324 23:30:54< gabba> That will allow allies to see what the others are doing, instead of waiting
20100324 23:30:56< boucman> night all
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20100324 23:31:09< gabba> night boucman
20100324 23:31:55< Soliton> how many moves will the clients have to remember to be able to undo them?
20100324 23:31:56< zookeeper> gabba, right
20100324 23:32:15< gabba> But since I'd need to convert undo objects to WML to do that, I think I might as well integrate that into the replay, period
20100324 23:32:39< zookeeper> sure, that'd be nice for allies
20100324 23:32:44< gabba> Soliton: as many as needed until a non-undoable move comes around
20100324 23:33:35< gabba> So right now my overall idea is to refactor replays and undo together into Command objects (cf the design pattern)
20100324 23:33:59< gabba> And get rid of the Giant Switch-Case in do_replay_handle in the process
20100324 23:34:24< gabba> Initially, only actions that already support undo would support rewinding
20100324 23:34:36< Soliton> sounds neat.
20100324 23:35:03< zookeeper> however, i think that if we had such a feature then we'd also need some visual indicators of where each unit has moved on this turn and which moves are undoable, etc. some kind of colour-coded lines showing each unit's path or something, i've briefly talked with someone about that recently.
20100324 23:35:23< gabba> I realize it's ambitious, but it reuses a lot of actual code
20100324 23:36:09< gabba> zookeeper: that'd be useful, but maybe not essential for a first implementation?
20100324 23:36:23< zookeeper> sure
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20100324 23:36:54< Soliton> there could just be some indication that currently there are undoable moves.
20100324 23:37:08< zookeeper> that too
20100324 23:37:08< gabba> zookeeper: Already, having the unit animate backwards and switching from red to green move status would be a good cue that something is an undo
20100324 23:37:55< zookeeper> frankly, i think movement path indicators like that would be a good idea even currently.
20100324 23:38:12< gabba> So, what's the insanity level of this idea on a scale of 1 to 10?
20100324 23:38:22< zookeeper> even though technically only the current unit placement matters, not where the units came from
20100324 23:38:31< zookeeper> i wouldn't know, i'm not a coder ;)
20100324 23:38:41< zookeeper> and now i'm off, have fun ->
20100324 23:38:49< gabba> alright, bye zookeeper
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20100324 23:40:06< Soliton> the refactoring into replay action objects shouldn't be that hard just a lot of work probably.
20100324 23:40:51< Soliton> not sure about the undo ability.
20100324 23:41:34< Soliton> there are some special commands like chat messages and renames that might make that difficult.
20100324 23:42:24< gabba> Soliton: yes, I saw those. Ultimately I'd like to offer a full-rewind/undo possibility,
20100324 23:42:52< gabba> but for the GSoC, you'd lose undo possibility as soon as something too tricky comes up
20100324 23:43:08< gabba> and I'd find a way to ignore chat messages when undoing
20100324 23:43:43< Soliton> well, it should all be possible and you have the current code as reference. :-)
20100324 23:43:49< gabba> I don't know much about the syncing verification mechanism, though, it might be the trickiest part
20100324 23:44:23< gabba> Soliton: so, probably still ok for a GSoC project?
20100324 23:44:23< Soliton> syncing verification?
20100324 23:44:40< gabba> Soliton: OOS detection
20100324 23:44:59< gabba> Soliton: I ran into it in my tests, but didn't look yet at the relevent code
20100324 23:45:22< gabba> am I making any sense :P ?
20100324 23:45:44< Soliton> well, whenever there is some inconsistent state reached you got OOS?
20100324 23:46:39< Soliton> nicer to detect it asap of course but that's the basic idea.
20100324 23:47:26< gabba> Well, it did detect my awful hack to try and get clients to undo moves at the same time as the current player :)
20100324 23:48:12< gabba> Anyways, is there any other dev who's an expert on replays or MP, who I should also ask for advice?
20100324 23:49:16< Soliton> YogiHH
20100324 23:49:44< gabba> ok, I'll bug him tomorrow
20100324 23:49:56< gabba> Thanks for listening to this lenghty "summary"
20100324 23:50:23< Soliton> no problem. i'm a big fan of replays. :-)
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 25 00:00:17 2010