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20100325 00:03:17< gabba> YogiHH: if you can get back to me about the above discussion tomorrow, I'd appreciate it
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20100325 01:03:34< compscijedi> hi all
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20100325 05:16:02< Zarel> Hey, who do I ask about getting posting access to Developers' Discussions?
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20100325 05:20:44< Jetrel> hm
20100325 05:21:10< Jetrel> Zarel:  technically I have admin access to allow that, but I don't want to do it without approval.
20100325 05:21:39< Zarel> I understand.
20100325 05:21:40< Jetrel> Since I'm not really in charge of that and don't want to step on people's toes - I use my admin access for taking care of art forum stuff.
20100325 05:27:46< Zarel> Jetrel: Can you reply for me in this thread, then?
20100325 05:27:56< Jetrel> Sure, the spritesheet thread?
20100325 05:28:00< Zarel> Yeah.
20100325 05:28:40< Zarel> Tell tsi that savings are usually 30%-60% in terms of storage, but the secondary benefits include speed and memory usage.
20100325 05:29:14< Zarel> Oh, phpbb has this cool "change poster" feature that you can use to make it seem like I actually wrote the post. ;)
20100325 05:30:08< Zarel> Also, mention that what the game is packaged with isn't too big of a deal - most artists just post sprites and wait for others to put them in-game either way. ;)
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20100325 05:30:57< Zarel> Minor edits to individual frames will still be possible, and anyone who knows about WML will probably know how to run the shell script that cosolidates individual PNGs into a sprite sheet.
20100325 05:31:17< Jetrel> Zarel:  pastebin me your post and I'll post it as you.
20100325 05:31:18< Zarel> We can add a comment to the WML describing where to find it, to assist that.
20100325 05:31:25< Zarel> k
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20100325 05:38:08< Zarel> Jetrel: http://pastebin.com/U2yj1BjG
20100325 05:39:19< Jetrel> kay, I'm writing my own post there which is going to take a while, sorry. ;_;
20100325 05:39:28< Jetrel> I'll post yours in a moment.
20100325 06:02:47< Jetrel> Zarel:  any clue how to do that "change poster" feature?  :(
20100325 06:03:46< Zarel> See a button that looks like this?
20100325 06:03:46< Zarel> http://forums.wz2100.net/styles/se_square_left/imageset/icon_post_info.gif
20100325 06:04:19< Zarel> Replace URL with the URL of whichever theme you're currently using.
20100325 06:04:47< Jetrel> No. :(
20100325 06:05:02< Zarel> Which theme are you currently using?
20100325 06:05:21< Jetrel> the normal, built in one...  silverlight?
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20100325 06:05:31< Jetrel> Basically, I'm at a "Post Details" page
20100325 06:05:42< Jetrel> and it does have a "moderator options" bit
20100325 06:05:51< Jetrel> but the only options are to lock the post, or delete it.
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20100325 06:07:21< Zarel> Hmm. Well, the button looks like that in prosilver.
20100325 06:10:29< Zarel> Jetrel: http://imagebin.org/90266
20100325 06:10:34< Zarel> I get a "Post details" screen like this.
20100325 06:11:59< Zarel> Do you have a similar screen?
20100325 06:12:24< Jetrel> Zarel:  http://imagebin.org/90268
20100325 06:13:12< Jetrel> Yeah, there's no "change poster" option in there, even after I switched to ProSilver
20100325 06:13:22< Zarel> Maybe it's not enabled in administration.
20100325 06:13:43< Zarel> Or you're using an old version of phpBB?
20100325 06:13:50 * Zarel shrugs.
20100325 06:13:54< Zarel> Oh, well, it's not too important.
20100325 06:14:26< Zarel> Oh and OMGAZ I NO UR IP IMMA HAXXOR U NAO
20100325 06:16:28< Jetrel> good luck with that.  I'm using a mac with no services on. :P
20100325 06:16:36< Jetrel> Not even ssh.
20100325 06:19:09< Zarel> http://www.fieldbrook.net/TechTips/images/computer_bomb.jpg
20100325 06:19:54< Jetrel> Zarel:  lol @ Die hard 4.  :|
20100325 06:20:40< Zarel> Probably should edit your post to say "Posted on behalf of Zarel", btw. :P
20100325 06:21:10< Jetrel> Zarel:  actually, I just went into the admin panel and gave myself that missing moderator permission. >_<
20100325 06:21:15< Zarel> Hee.
20100325 06:21:40< Zarel> I'm surprised admins don't get all moderator permissions by default.
20100325 06:21:58< Zarel> I guess it's because phpBB has granular adminship.
20100325 06:22:37< Jetrel> Yeah.
20100325 06:22:59< Jetrel> Zarel:  you're in minnesota?  Where at?
20100325 06:23:29< Zarel> Jetrel: University of Minnesota! :D
20100325 06:23:59< Zarel> -NickServ- You have been logged out.
20100325 06:23:59< Zarel> * [Zarel] (~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel): Zarel
20100325 06:24:05< Zarel> Stop lying, NickServ. :|
20100325 06:24:36< Zarel> * [Zarel] is connecting from *@c-75-72-160-179.hsd1.mn.comcast.net 75.72.160.179
20100325 06:24:57< Zarel> Anyway, yeah. CS/math majoring at the University of Minnesota. It's fun.
20100325 06:27:59< Jetrel> ah
20100325 06:28:15< Jetrel> yeah, I recently graduated from St. Olaf in northfield,  Math/Physics
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20100325 06:38:18< pokhbocee> Zarel: we r not that far from each other
20100325 06:38:24< pokhbocee> im in philly :D
20100325 06:38:52< Zarel> Jetrel: Oh, I know someone who goes there.
20100325 06:39:05< Jetrel> Really?
20100325 06:39:18< ancestral> P.S. I'm in Minneapolis :)
20100325 06:39:52< Zarel> pokhbocee: Philly? Do you mean Philadelpha, PA?
20100325 06:40:02< Zarel> 'Cause that's kind of one time zone away.
20100325 06:40:14< Zarel> And like halfway across the country.
20100325 06:40:26< Zarel> ancestral: I know. ;)
20100325 06:40:44< ancestral> I knew you knew; I know Jetrel knew but he may have forgotten :)
20100325 06:41:03< Jetrel> hm?
20100325 06:41:05< ancestral> My parents are Carleton grads
20100325 06:41:27< Zarel> Jetrel: Yeah, his name's Eric Dronen, he's one of my best friends.
20100325 06:41:40< Jetrel> huh, neat.
20100325 06:41:42< Zarel> Don't see him much these days, though.
20100325 06:41:58< pokhbocee> Zarel: yes this is a country that u can travel by plane for 6 hours :D so it feels close to me :D
20100325 06:42:28< Zarel> Heh. Well, by that measure, anyone in the world is fairly close to here. ;)
20100325 06:43:06< pokhbocee> ahah yo, i have traveled 24 hours
20100325 06:43:06< ancestral> My mom grew up in Philly
20100325 06:43:25< pokhbocee> after that 2-3 hours away feels really close :D
20100325 06:44:10< pokhbocee> ancestral: i dont think this is a nice place to grew up compare to small towns out of the city.
20100325 06:44:27< pokhbocee> i just saw those some of those towns last weekend they r beatiful
20100325 06:44:28< ancestral> Could be
20100325 06:44:59< ancestral> Of course my mom lived there 40 some years ago, hehe
20100325 06:45:23< pokhbocee> oh i see :D
20100325 06:45:23< ancestral> She remembered that there were entire blocks they had demolished for urban renewal
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20100325 06:45:52< pokhbocee> actually city is pretty neat
20100325 06:46:09< pokhbocee> but there are really beatiful places to live around here u know
20100325 06:46:39< ancestral> The Twin Cities are nice to live in
20100325 06:46:58< ancestral> Usually quoted as the "most livable area" in the U.S.
20100325 06:47:02< Jetrel> Yeah, I've been there quite a few times, have friends living there.
20100325 06:47:19< Jetrel> Quite low crime - my sister lives in KC right now, and it's horrible there.
20100325 06:47:35< ancestral> But yeah, my grandfather had a farm in northern Pennsylvania
20100325 06:47:45< Jetrel> >_<  She's been held up at gunpoint 3 times in the last 3 years.
20100325 06:47:50< ancestral> Oof
20100325 06:48:37< pokhbocee> wow
20100325 06:48:50< Jetrel> Yeah.  Don't move to KC.
20100325 06:48:57< pokhbocee> i have just pointed ones in my life time and i was thinking turkey is dangerous
20100325 06:49:28< Jetrel> pointed?
20100325 06:49:38< pokhbocee> a gun pointed at me :D
20100325 06:49:45< pokhbocee> sorry for my poor grammar
20100325 06:49:58< Jetrel> I'm confused at the meaning of your sentence. :|
20100325 06:50:03< Jetrel> OH
20100325 06:50:06< Jetrel> ones = once!
20100325 06:50:17< pokhbocee> oh damn!
20100325 06:50:28< pokhbocee> typing mistakes :D
20100325 06:50:49< Jetrel> homonym = they sound identical
20100325 06:51:06< Jetrel> Anyways, yeah, the US varies _wildly_ in crime rates.
20100325 06:51:33< Jetrel> Most areas are extremely safe, borderline idyllic.
20100325 06:52:01< Jetrel> But certain urban areas are very, very dangerous, and people get shot there ..  hmm.
20100325 06:52:14< ancestral> Even boils down to neighborhoods
20100325 06:52:32< ancestral> The same city can have plenty of "good" or better neighborhoods versus worse ones
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20100325 06:52:44< pokhbocee> people say philly is dangerous. especially area that i live in. however, nothing has happened yet
20100325 06:52:58< Jetrel> Actually, it's about 1 murder per day in LA, give or take.
20100325 06:53:11< pokhbocee> wow really?
20100325 06:54:05< ancestral> Of course, LA is something like the second largest city or metropolitan area, but even with its size, yeah
20100325 06:55:50< ancestral> still has a lot of crime
20100325 06:56:01< pokhbocee> oh its whole state D:
20100325 06:56:10< pokhbocee> thats normal than
20100325 06:57:07< ancestral> LA meaning Los Angeles, not Louisiana, of course :)
20100325 06:58:08< ancestral> Despite the postal code, practically everyone in the US associates "LA" with Los Angeles, much like "Washington" refers to the District of Columbia and not Washington state
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20100325 06:58:47< timotei21> morning everyone
20100325 07:00:16< pokhbocee> morning
20100325 07:01:03< pokhbocee> i have not get used to these state abbreviations\
20100325 07:02:08< ancestral> Yeah some of them are kinda quirky, though mostly they're unimportant
20100325 07:02:42< ancestral> You can send a letter anywhere and leave out the city and state altogether and they'll find where it goes just by the zip code
20100325 07:03:08< pokhbocee> so why do you use the rest ?
20100325 07:03:17< ancestral> Well, just in case
20100325 07:03:24< ancestral> My dad sent a postcard from Seattle once
20100325 07:03:57< ancestral> The post office misinterpreted his handwriting; they thought the first number was a "1" instead of a "5"
20100325 07:04:28< ancestral> So they sent his letter to Allentown, PA and then the post office saw it was supposed to go to Minnesota (because the computer scanned the numbers and guessed wrong)
20100325 07:04:53< ancestral> My dad was wondering why we hadn't gotten his postcard before he came back from his trip!
20100325 07:08:17< pokhbocee> i send a post card to my girlfriend
20100325 07:08:29< pokhbocee> she got it 10 days after i come back :D
20100325 07:08:35< pokhbocee> not 10 but 5 
20100325 07:08:53< ancestral> It's the one thing we take for granted
20100325 07:09:24< ancestral> The postal service, more than 99% of the time does an outstanding job
20100325 07:09:52< ancestral> There are horror stories I'm sure, but compared to other nations there's nothing to complain about
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20100325 07:15:56< pokhbocee> :D
20100325 07:16:05< pokhbocee> i bet hungary is the worst
20100325 07:17:04< pokhbocee> they lost my package twice
20100325 07:17:13< ancestral> I've heard Italy has had a bad postal service, but that may have changed
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20100325 07:32:18< pokhbocee> g. night guys
20100325 07:32:23< pokhbocee> im out
20100325 07:32:34< timotei21> bye bye
20100325 07:32:45< ancestral> See ya
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20100325 08:19:52< Zarel> Jetrel: Interesting. The Twin Cities area is pretty safe, despite being a major city.
20100325 08:19:56< Zarel> It's one of the things I like about it.
20100325 08:20:10< Jetrel> Yeah.
20100325 08:20:17 * Jetrel needs to get to bed.
20100325 08:20:21< Zarel> I don't think I've ever seen a gun in person that wasn't wielded by a police officer.
20100325 08:20:45< Jetrel> My whole time in minnesota, I haven't seen a gun crime, personally.
20100325 08:21:06< Jetrel> Saw one idiot in a yard waving one around and acting like a "gangsta".
20100325 08:22:10< Zarel> Hear about them all the time, fortunately never seen one.
20100325 08:22:33-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Quit: brb classes]
20100325 08:22:45< Zarel> People here are friendlier than San Diego (where I used to live), too.
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20100325 08:43:30< Jetrel> cya
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20100325 09:18:46< fendrin> Wesnoth does no longe play music/sound on my system. 
20100325 09:20:01< fendrin> pulseaudio is installed. The other applications do fine with it.
20100325 09:34:43-!- fendrin [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100325 09:35:38< esr> Wesnoth isn't playing sound on my system either.  Pulseaudio, Pandora Radio is working.
20100325 09:36:23< esr> 20100325 04:34:49 error audio: Could not initialize audio: No available audio device
20100325 09:40:56< freim> my experience with pulseaudio is that it breaks more than it works. Amazing how the distros decided to adopt something so fragile
20100325 09:44:06< freim> at least ubuntu does a very poor job of deploying pulseaudio
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20100325 10:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: trunk under test freeze, no commits unless Ivanovic okays them, test everything as much as possible, tagging of 1.8 planned for "High Noon" GMT on 25th March | string/feature freeze active! | 72 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100325 10:10:58-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@131.181.18.192] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 10:11:20< fendrin> esr: Same error here. 20100325 10:09:17 error audio: Could not initialize audio: No available audio device 
20100325 10:12:13< fendrin> Every other application is playing audio. I can even play several sources at once, they get mixed properly. But I don't use pulseaudio, my device is able to do hardware mixing.
20100325 10:12:27< esr> Crap.  That's a release blocker.  Time for a bisection.
20100325 10:13:04< esr> But I can't do it. I need to sleep.
20100325 10:15:00< stikonas> pulseaudio is working fine for me
20100325 10:17:12< fendrin> If I install pulseaudio I no longer get the error message. And I can enable audio in the preferences gui then.
20100325 10:17:33< fendrin> But I don't hear anything.
20100325 10:17:50< stikonas> fendrin: are you sure that pulseaudio is not muted?
20100325 10:19:15< fendrin> Yes, every other application is playing fine with pulseaudio.
20100325 10:19:58< fendrin> Does wesnoth rely on pulseaudio?
20100325 10:20:23< fendrin> Shouldn't it play with every linux sound setup?
20100325 10:21:30< stikonas> fendrin: I think it relies on SDL and so it depends on whatever SDL depends
20100325 10:21:47-!- Darkas [~quassel@ppp-93-104-152-123.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 10:22:07< stikonas> on ubuntu there are libsdl1.2debian-{alsa, pulseaudio} packages and they both work for me
20100325 10:23:14-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
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20100325 10:24:02< fendrin> stikonas: Removing libsdl-pulseaudio and installing libsdl-alsa fixed the problem for me.
20100325 10:24:09< fendrin> stikonas: Thank you :-)
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20100325 10:25:00< fendrin> esr: which version of libsdl do you have installed? The also one or the pulseaudio one?
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20100325 10:25:50< esr> fendrin: How can I tell?
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20100325 10:26:51< Ivanovic> moin
20100325 10:27:31< fendrin> esr: dpkg -s libsdl1.2debian-alsa
20100325 10:27:46< fendrin> esr: Assuming your distribution is debian based.
20100325 10:28:33< esr> Ubuntu.  It says "Status: deinstall ok config-files".  I presume that means it's not installed?
20100325 10:28:40< stikonas> esr: yes
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20100325 10:28:54< stikonas> you use libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
20100325 10:29:03< stikonas> try switching to libsdl1.2debian-alsa
20100325 10:29:21< fendrin> esr: Do you have pulseaudio installed? dpkg -s pulseaudio
20100325 10:30:05< fendrin> stikonas: How can you mix pulseaudio?
20100325 10:30:09< esr> Status: install ok installed
20100325 10:30:26< esr> Looks like yes.  What fix do you recomend?
20100325 10:30:52< stikonas> fendrin: what do you mean?
20100325 10:31:09< stikonas> esr: try sudo aptitude install libsdl1.2debian-alsa
20100325 10:32:00< fendrin> stikonas: Assume pulseaudio is muted for some reason. How would I fix that?
20100325 10:32:02< stikonas> fendrin : pavucontrol
20100325 10:33:34< stikonas> it is possible to mute it in Playback and Output Devices tabs
20100325 10:34:35< Ivanovic> Darkas: you don't have a forum account, right?
20100325 10:34:50< Darkas> Ivanovic: yeah, that's right
20100325 10:34:59< Darkas> not yet
20100325 10:35:03< Ivanovic> (i am currently going through the list of proposals in our wiki making sure that all the possible SoC students are added in the respective forum group)
20100325 10:35:16< Darkas> ok, so I'll register then
20100325 10:37:03< stikonas> fendrin: any luck?
20100325 10:37:52< fendrin> stikonas: No, still no luck with pulseaudio. But there is no need for me to use it. My sounddevice does hardware mixing. So everything is fine for me with sdl-alsa.
20100325 10:38:08< esr> fendrin: Fix confirmed.
20100325 10:38:10< Darkas> Ivanovic, I'm now registered
20100325 10:38:19< Ivanovic> username "Darkas"?
20100325 10:38:27< Darkas> yes
20100325 10:38:35< fendrin> esr: Still, there is a problem there. What is with the poeple that need to use pulseaudio?
20100325 10:38:45< stikonas> either pulseaudio works for you and you love it or it doesn't work and you hate it :)
20100325 10:39:23< fendrin> stikonas: I like puseaudio. And it is working fine here. Only wesnoth doesn't work with it.
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20100325 10:40:26< esr> I hated it.  I have another SDL game I play (burgerspace) that has frequently crappy or nonexistent sound.  fendrin's fix makes this problem go away, too.
20100325 10:40:47< Ivanovic> yes, the ubuntu setup with pulseaudio is 100% fragile
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20100325 10:40:48< fendrin> esr: It was stikonas who came up with the fix.
20100325 10:41:01< freim> even when pulseaudio works it has so much latency that it's useless for any gaming like fps
20100325 10:41:01< esr> Noted.
20100325 10:41:01< Ivanovic> this fix is ages old and listed in the wiki, too
20100325 10:41:07< Ivanovic> s/wiki/forums
20100325 10:41:11< Ivanovic> several times in the forums
20100325 10:42:06< stikonas> fendrin, esr: I use Kubuntu Lucid, so newer pulseaudio maybe fixed
20100325 10:42:16< stikonas> that's my theory why it is working for me
20100325 10:45:13< fendrin> esr: The problem is: If your sounddevice or the driver doesn't support hardwaremixing (which means that several applications are able to open the sound device at the same time) you will only have a single application be able to play sound without a soundserver like pulseaudio, esd, arts or nas.
20100325 10:45:55< fendrin> s/arts/artsd
20100325 10:46:34< freim> fendrin: you can also do software mixing with alsa+dmix
20100325 10:47:19< Ivanovic> beside pulseaudio sometimes sucking really bad: how does current trunk work?
20100325 10:47:22< Ivanovic> any issues found?
20100325 10:47:27< Ivanovic> or can i tag in some two hours
20100325 10:47:34< Ivanovic> ?
20100325 10:47:38< freim> fendrin: which should be enabled by default these days I think for cards that don't do hardware mixing
20100325 10:47:58< fendrin> freim: That is new to me. I am glad that I have that old soundblaster live with the emu10k1 chipset, dating to the year 1998. It doesn't have the quality of modern soundcards but the driver is rock solid and does hardware mixing.
20100325 10:48:26< freim> fendrin: yeah, I'm still using an old soundblaster card myself for the same reason
20100325 10:48:33< fendrin> :-)
20100325 10:48:42-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100325 10:48:48< esr> Ivanovic: Maybe not.  We have anoother lobby crash: bug  #15693.
20100325 10:49:04< Ivanovic> esr: in fact i think that is not a new one but some kind of duplicate
20100325 10:49:15< freim> fendrin: I never got pulseaudio to play well with wine so I just purged it from my system. KDE thankfully doesn't depend on it
20100325 10:49:16< Ivanovic> and some of this stuff was fixed by ilor since rc1 and the report is based on rc1
20100325 10:50:36-!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86
20100325 10:50:50< esr> Look at the most recent 6 bugs.  I fear the lobby code is still a mess.
20100325 10:52:08< Ivanovic> those bugs are far from blockers
20100325 10:52:26< Ivanovic> and only the 4 last are lobby related
20100325 10:52:35< esr> But I fear they indicate a dangerous degree of overall flakiness.
20100325 10:52:41< Ivanovic> the crash is likely fixed already, got to ask ilor about it
20100325 10:53:13< Ivanovic> the incorrect diplaying of "Games: showing" does only happen with a compeltely empty lobby
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20100325 10:55:58< Ivanovic> and in the crash bug i was not able to reproduce it so far
20100325 10:56:14< Ivanovic> added a "need info"
20100325 10:58:00< fendrin> freim: What kind of device do you own?
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20100325 11:01:05< freim> fendrin: I hardly remember anymore, it's an Audigy of some sort
20100325 11:01:53< Ivanovic> yes, those are lovely cards since they tend to have "enough" hardware mixer
20100325 11:01:59< Ivanovic> something like 16 or the likes IIRC
20100325 11:04:46< freim> yeah, I never upgraded since the newer SB cards have horrible driver support. And the only other decent cards was very expensive and with bad availability
20100325 11:05:58< fendrin> freim, Ivanovic: As far as I remember the Audigy is based on the emu10k1 as well, so we should all use the same realy nice working driver.
20100325 11:06:44< Ivanovic> yes, it is
20100325 11:07:04< freim> some (most?) Audigy is emu10k2 afaik
20100325 11:07:21< Ivanovic> in fact the audigy2 cards (later on relabled to audigy4) are the last basted on the emu10kSOMETHING driver
20100325 11:07:28< freim> mm
20100325 11:07:33< Ivanovic> s/basted/based
20100325 11:08:17< Ivanovic> freim: the kernel module my audigy2 uses is snd_emu10k1
20100325 11:09:41< freim> ok
20100325 11:12:50< grzybacz> freim!
20100325 11:13:50< grzybacz> Ivanovic: there are several different cards branded as audigy, including some awful ones that don't work with emu10k* and mostly don't work with Linux
20100325 11:14:12< grzybacz> Ivanovic: my friend bought one of them once and returned it the day after
20100325 11:14:13< freim> hi grzybacz :)
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20100325 11:14:42< grzybacz> duh
20100325 11:16:02< grzybacz> freim: how are things?
20100325 11:16:06< freim> good
20100325 11:16:15< freim> and you?
20100325 11:19:20< grzybacz> very good :)
20100325 11:25:06< esr> The Intel 82801G sound chip on my mobo does hardware mixing no problem, or at least I can play burgerspace and Pandora Radio at the same time and hget sounds from both.  I think this is the vanilla sound chip shipped with most Intel motherboards these days.
20100325 11:25:41< esr> (That is, I get sounds from both with alsa, no pulseaudio.)
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20100325 11:27:47< Ivanovic> grzybacz: i just got a plain audigy2 and it works really lovely under linux
20100325 11:27:51< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 11:28:35< fendrin> esr: Good for you. Seems like both our problems are solved.
20100325 11:29:25< fendrin> Rhonda: Does the wesnoth debian package depend on sdl-pulseaudio or on sdl-alsa?
20100325 11:29:38< esr> Unsettling to have to dodge that sort of bullet a few hours vefore a major stable, though.
20100325 11:29:52< Ivanovic> esr: ubuntu f***ed things up
20100325 11:30:01< Ivanovic> esr: though this one is *ancient*
20100325 11:30:02-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 11:30:13< esr> Ivanovic: Ubuntu, or the PulseAudio people?
20100325 11:30:42< Ivanovic> since the ubuntu packaging is broken (and reported as broken in their tracker!): ubuntu
20100325 11:31:02< esr> Maybe it will be fixed in Lucid Lynx.
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20100325 11:32:48< fendrin> Ivanovic: That is the sdl-pulseaudio package or is it pulseaudio itself?
20100325 11:34:42-!- anuragsharma [~3b91cb42@gateway/web/freenode/x-ofebjdacaooibdzv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100325 11:36:15< Ivanovic> it is the sdl package with bad dependencies
20100325 11:38:24< loonycyborg> Why don't they fix them already? :/
20100325 11:39:10-!- Crab__ [~Crab@195.238.92.115] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 11:39:37< fendrin> loonycyborg: Because ubuntu isn't shipping with pulseaudio installed. That means that pulseaudio is not part of ubuntu main but part of universe with is all that is not part of ubuntu but part of debian.
20100325 11:39:58< fendrin> loonycyborg: Those packages are not maintained by ubuntu. They may work or may work not.
20100325 11:40:58< grzybacz> esr: are you using dmix?
20100325 11:41:17< esr> dmix?
20100325 11:43:06< loonycyborg> fendrin: You mean that it can't depend on libsdl1.2debian-alsa because it's part of universe?
20100325 11:44:12< loonycyborg> Because I don't see how ubuntu can ship without pulseaudio considerung it's used by default :P
20100325 11:44:21< grzybacz> esr: alsa can do transparent software mixing without pulseaudio
20100325 11:45:29< fendrin> loonycyborg: Sorry, I don't understand your question.
20100325 11:47:38< loonycyborg> Everyone are saying that pulseaudio is cause of those issues and it's used by default in ubuntu. And then you say 'ubuntu isn't shipping with pulseaudio installed'. That confuses me big time.
20100325 11:48:46< grzybacz> It's there by default.
20100325 11:49:00< grzybacz> Even on emu10k1 installations.
20100325 11:50:25< stikonas> Ivanovic: I was testing tutorial and have a question: when does the dialog "That unit is about one kill (8 experience points) away from gaining a level! Do not let it die!" is supposed to be shown
20100325 11:50:42< fendrin> loonycyborg: No, it's not used by default in ubuntu. 
20100325 11:50:50< grzybacz> ...
20100325 11:50:51< stikonas> Ivanovic: because it wasn't shown for the first such unit
20100325 11:51:17< fendrin> loonycyborg: At least not in karmic koala which is what I am using at the moment.
20100325 11:51:44< stikonas> I've managed to get Elvish Shaman 26/32 XP points but no such dialog appeared, but later it appeared for Elvish Archer
20100325 11:53:00< stikonas> oh, I see, this is hardcoded, and Elvish Shaman is not hardcoded into the list
20100325 11:54:02< timotei21> hey fendrin
20100325 11:54:17< timotei21> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode_Timotei21#4.29_Project
20100325 11:54:21< timotei21> a draft 
20100325 11:54:26< fendrin> timotei21: Hi
20100325 11:54:42< fendrin> timotei21: Sorry I felt asleep yesterday without noting you.
20100325 11:54:47< grzybacz> fendrin: I installed koala 2 weeks ago and pulseaudio was there
20100325 11:54:54< timotei21> and some planning. I'm researching right now with eclipse plugins, and all that stuff - text editor
20100325 11:54:57< timotei21> no problem:)
20100325 11:55:02< timotei21> it happens
20100325 11:55:03< grzybacz> fendrin: from scratch, not upgrading
20100325 11:55:21< fendrin> grzybacz: Hmmm, maybe it's only missing in my *k*ubuntu installation.
20100325 11:59:04-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 11:59:15< grzybacz> hm. maybe?
20100325 12:01:45< timotei21> bot esr
20100325 12:01:52< timotei21> wesbot esr
20100325 12:01:59< timotei21> ping esr
20100325 12:02:00< fendrin> wesbot: seen esr
20100325 12:02:00< wesbot> fendrin: Queried user last spoke 20m 43s ago.  esr is currently here and on the channel #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20100325 12:02:01< Ivanovic> esr, fendrin, loonycyborg: cf this forum post regarding pulseaudio+ubuntu stuff: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27653&start=0
20100325 12:02:45< Ivanovic> or this ubuntu bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl1.2/+bug/442535
20100325 12:04:06< Ivanovic> stikonas: bug zookeeper about this problem
20100325 12:04:16< Crab__> zookeeper: see http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29305
20100325 12:04:42< Ivanovic> fendrin: yes, kubuntu is one of the reasons why ubuntu does not install the correct libsdl version itself
20100325 12:04:58< Ivanovic> since this would break kubuntu and xubuntu which by default do not rely on pulseaudio
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20100325 12:06:33< timotei21> crab_ : wmllint, and other files without extensions, are in python right?
20100325 12:07:35< Ivanovic> timotei21: to find in what they are, check the first lines in the files
20100325 12:07:55< Ivanovic> if they are scripts they normally denote their "interpreter" in the first line
20100325 12:08:04< timotei21> oh, that's right. Thanks
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20100325 12:09:12< timotei21> fendrin, should I checkout the branches/eclipse_plugin for the UMC plugin?
20100325 12:09:16< freim> fendrin: Ubuntu uses pulseaudio by default. It's Kubuntu that doesn't
20100325 12:09:52< freim> the gnome volume control stuff depends on pulseaudio now
20100325 12:10:48< fendrin> timotei21: yes
20100325 12:11:01< timotei21> ok
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20100325 12:16:11< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41739 /trunk/src/multiplayer_create.cpp: 
20100325 12:16:11< CIA-80> YogiHH broke the stringfreeze, working around this by using a semi working string, not perfect but better than untranslated...
20100325 12:16:11< CIA-80> TODO: after tagging 1.8 reactivate the old string
20100325 12:16:26< timotei21> so, fendrin, what about my proposal until now?
20100325 12:17:42< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: what's the status of trunk testing?
20100325 12:17:57< Ivanovic> the status is: running last pot-update and will do some testing afterwards
20100325 12:18:01< Ivanovic> then i plan to tag in 40mins
20100325 12:18:06< shadowmaster> (also, what's "high noon"?)
20100325 12:18:32< shadowmaster> (uhhh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Noon)
20100325 12:19:02< zookeeper> Crab__, i saw that, but no idea what's the cause and he wasn't being specific, so...
20100325 12:19:13< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: is that our first codenamed release? :)
20100325 12:19:18-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Quit: brb classes]
20100325 12:19:18< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: since there were some people asking "uhm, is this 12:00 am or pm?" i am now being more precise
20100325 12:20:09< esr> Codenamed?  I vote for "Walloping Walrus!" :-)
20100325 12:20:12< Crab__> zookeeper: he said it was a locale issue..
20100325 12:20:32< Crab__> zookeeper: e.g. he got it only with russian language
20100325 12:21:33< Ivanovic> no codenames
20100325 12:21:47< Crab__> loonycyborg: a small question - can you try to reproduce http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29305 ?
20100325 12:22:14< Crab__> (start dark forecast with russian language on windows on 1.7.15)
20100325 12:22:35< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: one request: please name the resulting windows installer this: wesnoth-1.8-win32.exe
20100325 12:22:46< Ivanovic> (to make sure that the links in the translated announcement do work)
20100325 12:23:30< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41740 /trunk/ (558 files in 30 dirs): 
20100325 12:23:30< CIA-80> pot-update (preparing for 1.8.0, no new/changed strings, reference update only)
20100325 12:23:30< CIA-80> regenerated doc files
20100325 12:24:02< loonycyborg> Crab__: I know what may cause those errors: using unicode characters that aren't supported by native encoding.
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20100325 12:25:44< Crab__> loonycyborg: what can be done about it ?
20100325 12:26:19< loonycyborg> I've explained that in one a forum post. I'll look for it.
20100325 12:26:32< Crab__> thanks
20100325 12:27:46< loonycyborg> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28968&p=411190#p411190
20100325 12:32:28< fendrin> shadowmaster: Looks like Ivanovic wants to release Wesnoth in real time.
20100325 12:34:06< shadowmaster> um, and what would be a different way of releasing wesnoth?
20100325 12:34:35< shadowmaster> turn-based? 
20100325 12:34:37< Ivanovic> oaky, looking good so far
20100325 12:35:02< fendrin> lol
20100325 12:35:23< Ivanovic> that is: i am currently able to start all campaigns (incl. tutorial) in all difficulty levels, join the mp server, download addons, view the ingame help, start the editor
20100325 12:36:11< shadowmaster> how about everyone (except me!) plays the first scenario of each campaign, just in case?
20100325 12:36:26< zookeeper> you've tried starting all campaigns on all difficulties? O.o
20100325 12:36:44< shadowmaster> making sure that we aren't getting chaotic elves, poisoned poisoners or stoned trolls?
20100325 12:36:57< Ivanovic> AI0867, Chusslove, Crab__, Darkas, esr, fendrin, grzybacz, loonycyborg, shadowmaster, Soliton, zookeeper, everybody else: have you found any new issues in the last 24h or is there anything that should block the release of 1.8.0 right now?
20100325 12:37:01< Ivanovic> zookeeper: yes, i have done so
20100325 12:37:17< zookeeper> Ivanovic, wow. that's impressive. how long did that take?
20100325 12:37:20< Ivanovic> zookeeper: my normal release procedure is try to start every campaign in one of the difficulty levels
20100325 12:37:23< Darkas> Ivanovic, nothing
20100325 12:37:23< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: unfortunately I've been either asleep or working or studying for most of that time so I've not even bee able to update SVN...
20100325 12:37:26< shadowmaster> for days already
20100325 12:37:49< esr> Ivanovic: Looking...
20100325 12:38:18< Crab__> Ivanovic: all looks good ...
20100325 12:38:27< shadowmaster> will you announce within the following 5 days or can it wait until April 1st? ;)
20100325 12:38:39< Ivanovic> the announcement is still planned for april 1st
20100325 12:38:54< Ivanovic> like i said, i want to give packagers a week to create and test the packages of 1.8
20100325 12:39:01< shadowmaster> okay, that's good because it means that nobody can complain if something's broken :)
20100325 12:39:09< Ivanovic> so that eg Rhonda has enough time to get the binary done and tested
20100325 12:39:19< shadowmaster> "UtBS scenario 2 crashes..." "April Fools!"
20100325 12:39:51< esr> Ivanovic: Nothing in the last 24 hours.  I'm still a bit worried about the state of the MP lobby, though.
20100325 12:40:23< Ivanovic> esr: i think it is good enough for the "real" testing it will get with a 1.8.0 release
20100325 12:40:49< Ivanovic> yes, there will probably be several polishing and bugfixing commits for the lobby before 1.8.1 is out, but hey, this is not unexpected
20100325 12:40:58< esr> When will you want bugs closed, on tagging or a week from now?
20100325 12:41:03< Ivanovic> on tagging
20100325 12:41:07< esr> OK.
20100325 12:41:11< Ivanovic> bugs+patches that is
20100325 12:41:19< esr> Yes.
20100325 12:41:30< esr> Let me run a WML sanity check.
20100325 12:42:29< fendrin> Ivanovic: No problems I am aware of.
20100325 12:43:42< shadowmaster> hm.
20100325 12:43:58< shadowmaster> in fact, I can't eve hope to test much before 31th's evening :/
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20100325 12:44:32< shadowmaster> I do want to find the time to try a "quick and dirty" upgrade to phpBB 3.0.7, though.
20100325 12:45:46< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41741 /trunk/ (changelog configure.ac players_changelog): some changelog fixes and bumping the version to 1.8.0, about to tag!
20100325 12:45:57< shadowmaster> turns out I just had to override the system TZ in php.ini to get phpBB and Serendipity working correctly again. It seems that the tzdata upgrade I did to fix the "Chile 2010 earthquake DST change" wasn't enjoyed a lot by apache and/orPHP
20100325 12:46:35< esr> Ivanovic: Let me finish the wmlscope/wmllint check before tagging, please.
20100325 12:46:50< Ivanovic> sure
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20100325 12:47:03< shadowmaster> (nobody has a better idea? it kind of sucks to not let php take the system settings instead...)
20100325 12:47:06< Ivanovic> i won't tag before i got a tarball and tested that this tarball does work as expected anyway
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20100325 12:49:03< esr> wmlscope looks good, wmllint running...
20100325 12:51:57< esr> OK, all checks have run clean.
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20100325 12:59:31< Ivanovic> great
20100325 12:59:45< Ivanovic> compiling and installing using cmake worked without any problems, too
20100325 12:59:50< Ivanovic> so we are probably good to go...
20100325 13:00:48-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: about to tag 1.8, using r41741 | string/feature freeze active! | 72 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100325 13:03:03< loonycyborg> scons works fine too. Even install which I don't use much otherwise..
20100325 13:04:34< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: for uploading the resulting package to sf.net please use this location: USERNAME,wesnoth@frs.sourceforge.net:/home/frs/project/w/we/wesnoth/wesnoth-1.8/wesnoth-1.8.0
20100325 13:05:14< Ivanovic> (yes, the 1.8.x files got into wesnoth-1.8/wesnoth-VERSION instead of wesnoth/wesnoth-version where the dev versions end
20100325 13:05:16< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 13:05:32< loonycyborg> Understood.
20100325 13:08:41< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41742 /tags/1.8.0/: tag 1.8.0, using r41741, announcement planned for April 1st, in the meantime: translating the announcement, creating packages, testing, testing, testing
20100325 13:08:53< Ivanovic> okay, trunk is from now on open for all fixes that are meant for both, trunk and 1.9
20100325 13:08:57< Ivanovic> s/1.9/1.8
20100325 13:09:08< Ivanovic> mainly the stuff that would have broken the stringfreeze before
20100325 13:09:18< Ivanovic> esr: that is your clean wml fixes and the likes
20100325 13:09:24< Ivanovic> esr: feel free to close bugs and patches now
20100325 13:09:41< Ivanovic> i am currently uploading the 1.8 tarball to wesnoth.org, from there i will upload it to sf.net
20100325 13:09:50-!- loonycyborg [~sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Quit: I ATE'NT DEAD]
20100325 13:09:59< esr> Ivanovic: Won't adding strings now screw up the 1.8 translations?  If that doesn't matter, why doesn't it matter?
20100325 13:10:17< Ivanovic> no, since 1.8.0 is done it will *not* screw the 1.8 translations in general
20100325 13:10:36< Ivanovic> yes, for 1.8.1 translators will have to fix those changed strings
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20100325 13:11:49< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41743 /trunk/src/multiplayer_create.cpp: reactivate the string YogiHH added
20100325 13:12:04< Ivanovic> esr: r41743 is one example of what should be done now
20100325 13:12:19< esr> Closed 5 patches
20100325 13:12:29< esr> wesbot: r41743
20100325 13:12:46< esr> foo?
20100325 13:12:54-!- loonybot [~loonybot@wesnoth/bot/loonybot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100325 13:12:55< Ivanovic> esr: you got to ask it for a log
20100325 13:13:03< Ivanovic> but cia just reported that commit 2mins ago
20100325 13:13:10< Ivanovic> no need to ask wesbot for the info
20100325 13:13:11< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 13:13:16< esr> wesbot: log 41743
20100325 13:13:16< wesbot> ivanovic * r41743 : reactivate the string YogiHH added
20100325 13:13:17< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=41743
20100325 13:14:11< esr> OK.
20100325 13:15:06< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: it isn't branched yet, right?
20100325 13:15:24< shadowmaster> uh, the test suite sigfaulted
20100325 13:16:25< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: correct
20100325 13:17:21< shadowmaster> when will that be done?
20100325 13:17:30< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: in 24h
20100325 13:18:26< shadowmaster> okay, compiling wesnoth still consumes more than 100% RAM here
20100325 13:18:32-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | trunk currently only open for commits that are for 1.8 *and* 1.9.x, will branch 1.9 off at noon GMT on April 26th | feature freeze active! | 72 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100325 13:18:43< shadowmaster> *100% average free RAM (1.3 GB)
20100325 13:18:47< Ivanovic> how much ram do you have?
20100325 13:18:59< Ivanovic> and: how many jobs do you use with which settings?
20100325 13:19:06< shadowmaster> two, O3
20100325 13:19:14< Ivanovic> better use -O2
20100325 13:19:28< stikonas> Ivanovic: why is tar file called 1.8 but version is 1.8.0?
20100325 13:19:28< Ivanovic> that should be enough speedwise, O3 normally does not help too much anyway
20100325 13:19:44< shadowmaster> O3 helped wesnoth's performance a lot actually, around 1.5.x betas
20100325 13:19:45< Ivanovic> stikonas: because of the announcement where, IIRC, the link names are translateable, too
20100325 13:19:54< stikonas> ok
20100325 13:20:13< shadowmaster> comparison: 40 fps (O2) vs. 60 fps (O3)
20100325 13:20:28< Ivanovic> interesting
20100325 13:20:36< esr> Ivanovic: 5 patches and 25 bugs closed.  2 bugs retained, the SDL mouse click one and the newest Need Info.
20100325 13:21:11< Crab__> wesbot: topic
20100325 13:21:13-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | trunk currently only open for commits that are for 1.8 *and* 1.9.x, will branch 1.9 off at noon GMT on April 26th | feature freeze active! | 71 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100325 13:21:57< shadowmaster> good that very few apps lock memory in practice :x
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20100325 13:22:47< fendrin> shadowmaster: Spawning 5 processes for compiling Wesnoth does use 2.6 GB on my system.
20100325 13:23:05< shadowmaster> fendrin: well, this was with 2 processes
20100325 13:23:18< shadowmaster> and both were working with the AI code :(
20100325 13:23:31< fendrin> shadowmaster: If you have 2 cores, you should use at least 3 processes.
20100325 13:23:42< shadowmaster> no, I *shouldn't*
20100325 13:23:51< shadowmaster> the entire point is that I have CPU power but not enough free RAM
20100325 13:24:41< Ivanovic> you need more ram
20100325 13:24:42< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 13:24:52< shadowmaster> with O0 it'd not be a problem until the linking step. Then it can go really wrong for other apps
20100325 13:26:25< CIA-80> esr * r41744 /trunk/data/core/macros/traits.cfg: 
20100325 13:26:25< CIA-80> Recreate new translation item for female^aged now that string freeze
20100325 13:26:25< CIA-80> is off. Addresses bug #15212: Trait "Aged": wrong gender, but
20100325 13:26:25< CIA-80> translations will need to be updated of course.
20100325 13:26:26< shadowmaster> notably, I can compile the kernel with 6 subprocesses and still be able to work on something else. Wesnoth is a good example of C++ monster.
20100325 13:26:40< shadowmaster> or mesa with 12 subprocesses
20100325 13:26:58< Ivanovic> hmm, what do you think, should i upload an xdelta for the sources between 1.6.5 and 1.8?
20100325 13:27:07< Ivanovic> the xdelta file has just lovely 95MB
20100325 13:28:01< shadowmaster> (and everything -O3, except the kernel which is -Os)
20100325 13:28:50< esr> Ivanovic: What do you know about  #15359 (Lobby crash when viewing player list), the Ready For Test blocker?  Is this actually fixed?  Should I close it?
20100325 13:29:50< Ivanovic> i'd say close as fixed
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20100325 13:35:25< Ivanovic> esr: cf the latest comment in the "lobby crash" bug report
20100325 13:35:34< Ivanovic> esr: seems to at least not be reliably reproducible
20100325 13:35:48< Ivanovic> so it can be one of those "really difficult to fix" spurious bugs
20100325 13:36:28< esr> What did I say about the MP lobby? :-(
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20100325 13:36:54< Ivanovic> esr: ehm, you know, those "seldom bugs" are *not* a clear blocker for 1.8
20100325 13:37:12< Ivanovic> if it was something that happened always it would be a blocker since what can be reproduced can (often) be fixed
20100325 13:42:42< shadowmaster> strange
20100325 13:42:56< shadowmaster> I could swear the system is using only 1 core.
20100325 13:44:02< shadowmaster> whenever I  `cpufreq-info -c 1` I see that this core is at 1000 MHz instead of 2000
20100325 13:46:03< shadowmaster> although according to ksysguard both are being used...maybe the cpufreq code is broken :/
20100325 13:46:46< shadowmaster> hm, forcing the performance governor on #1 still gives only 1000 MHz
20100325 13:47:11< shadowmaster> ah crap :x "current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 1000 MHz."
20100325 13:47:59< Ivanovic> :)
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20100325 13:48:24< shadowmaster> they are both stuck at 1000 MHz for no discenrible reason at all
20100325 13:48:26-!- jpzork [~jpzork@188.26.60.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100325 13:49:42< shadowmaster> http://pastebin.com/50z1ijNY
20100325 13:50:32< CIA-80> esr * r41745 /trunk/data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/ (12a_Get_the_Gold.cfg 13a_Showdown.cfg): 
20100325 13:50:32< CIA-80> Restore the behavior that you only get your stolen gold back in NR::Showdown
20100325 13:50:32< CIA-80> if Sisal lived through NR:Stolen Gold. This required a new line of dialog.
20100325 13:50:55< esr> Ivanovic: There's my two bugs.
20100325 13:52:54< Ivanovic> esr: good
20100325 13:53:39< Ivanovic> now i mainly wait for AI0867, fendrin and mordante if they got some stuff left that requires a string change
20100325 13:53:58< CIA-80> esr * r41746 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/10_Gryphon_Mountain.cfg: Eliminate a duplicate name, originally subbed for an Earth-human one.
20100325 13:54:06< esr> I have another one or two coming.  Nothing urgent.
20100325 13:54:10< Ivanovic> sure
20100325 13:54:30< fendrin> Ivanovic: I am fine. Won't commit anything until 1.9 is open.
20100325 13:55:54< shadowmaster> ...on the bright side, I managed to find a reliable way to reproduce the "HDD dies on S3 and/or kernel panics after S3" issue.
20100325 13:56:16< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41747 /trunk/ (changelog configure.ac players_changelog src/wesconfig.h): bump version to 1.8.0+svn
20100325 13:56:24< CIA-80> esr * r41748 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/13_Dwarvish_Stand.cfg: Eliminate an Earth-human name.
20100325 13:56:30< Ivanovic> esr: please do not forget to add changelog entries for your changes
20100325 13:56:37< shadowmaster> the bad news is that I wasted 5 minutes waiting for the system to come back after dying.
20100325 13:56:59< Ivanovic> upload to wesnoth.org done, now uploading the files over to sf.net...
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20100325 13:58:31< Ivanovic> [12:22:34] <Ivanovic> loonycyborg: one request: please name the resulting windows installer this: wesnoth-1.8-win32.exe
20100325 13:58:46< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: just to make sure that you have seen this one
20100325 13:58:55< loonycyborg> I saw that.
20100325 14:00:16< Ivanovic> okay
20100325 14:00:41< CIA-80> esr * r41749 /trunk/players_changelog: Log a player-visible change.
20100325 14:00:56< esr> OK, I think I'm done.
20100325 14:01:09< esr> Until 1.9 that is.
20100325 14:01:22< Ivanovic> esr: stuff that is in players_changelog should be mentioned in changelog, too
20100325 14:01:23< Ivanovic> M)
20100325 14:03:32< CIA-80> esr * r41750 /trunk/changelog: And note a change again.
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20100325 14:09:11< Ivanovic> esr: ehm, you added the stuff at the wrong part of the changelogs
20100325 14:09:21< Ivanovic> you listed it under 1.8.0, not under 1.8.0+svn where it belongs
20100325 14:10:30< esr> Aaarrggghh.
20100325 14:10:37< esr> I need sleeep.
20100325 14:10:55< esr> I'm going to crash.  Ivanovic...fix it as you like.
20100325 14:11:05< Ivanovic> okay
20100325 14:11:08< Ivanovic> n8 esr
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20100325 14:17:20< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41751 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog): fixed the changelog entries by esr
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20100325 14:23:29< Soliton> Ivanovic: has anything been done about the version checks for savegame compatibility, accepted version of the mp server and the likes?
20100325 14:23:40< Ivanovic> no, nothing
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20100325 15:04:33< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: 1.8 windows installer is uploaded.
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20100325 15:32:26< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: cool
20100325 15:33:56< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: the md5 is correct? 529e4d49c752be1ae9d0828647af216c
20100325 15:34:03< Ivanovic> 20MB size difference sounds strange to me
20100325 15:34:22< Ivanovic> (difference between tarball and installer)
20100325 15:34:44< Ivanovic> that is 3MB more difference than with 1.7.15
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20100325 15:38:39< shadowmaster> wow, DNS is getting worse and worse
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20100325 15:39:01< shadowmaster> okay, what was this openDNS thing? (since I can't resolve google.com atm)
20100325 15:39:33< Ivanovic> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDNS
20100325 15:39:53< shadowmaster> yeah, you had to give me another domain name to resolve
20100325 15:40:13< Ivanovic> sure
20100325 15:40:14< shadowmaster> okay, DNS working again.
20100325 15:46:15< shadowmaster> heh, the whois service is also blocked
20100325 15:46:44< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Yes. Checksum matches.
20100325 15:46:50< Ivanovic> okay
20100325 15:47:09< Ivanovic> just wanted to be sure, you know, broken download would not fit nicely with "stable series"
20100325 15:47:15< Ivanovic> (though it would match the release date...)
20100325 15:47:17< Ivanovic> ^^
20100325 15:47:25< Ivanovic> (s/release/announcement)
20100325 15:50:18< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: those don't work
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20100325 15:51:40< Crab__> shadowmaster: note: google has got a free dns service, too. it's address is 8.8.8.8
20100325 15:51:41< shadowmaster> okay, never mind. I see why
20100325 15:52:24< shadowmaster> Crab__: um, doesn't work
20100325 15:52:42< shadowmaster> and yes, now I'm 100% sure there's nothing trying to revert my changes to resolv.conf
20100325 15:53:17< shadowmaster> is 8.8.8.8 going to reply to pings?
20100325 15:53:29< Crab__> shadowmaster: does it work if you try to use interactive mode, "nslookup - 8.8.8.8" ?
20100325 15:53:44< Crab__> 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=0 ttl=246 time=26.421 ms
20100325 15:54:00< shadowmaster> 57 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 56000ms
20100325 15:54:39< shadowmaster> could it be...that they blocked some known external DNS providers...too? :/
20100325 15:54:59< Crab__> shadowmaster: it's easier to block/filter by port
20100325 15:56:19< shadowmaster> call me paranoid, but I'm starting to think something's really wrong here
20100325 15:56:43< shadowmaster> nah, actually, I can't even ping wesnoth.org. I used to be able to, tho.
20100325 15:56:54< Crab__> shadowmaster: can you still connect to wesnoth.org via ssh ?
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20100325 15:57:19< shadowmaster> yup (I connect to this IRC session via SSH anyway)
20100325 15:59:36< shadowmaster> am I doing something wrong? I've not used nslookup before: http://pastebin.com/9t482Hif
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20100325 16:01:48< loonycyborg> 'host wesnoth.org 8.8.8.8' works for me.
20100325 16:02:16< shadowmaster> uhhh
20100325 16:02:30< shadowmaster> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/NbT0cLvx
20100325 16:02:45< shadowmaster> so why does it tell me it's using my university's DNS relay anyway?
20100325 16:03:53< loonycyborg> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/B1c8fcBJ
20100325 16:03:57< loonycyborg> I get this.
20100325 16:04:09< shadowmaster> also,  I figured out what's wrong with nslookup (a program messing up resolv.conf again), but then queries to 8.8.8.8 time out
20100325 16:04:59< shadowmaster> so my theory that they blocked 8.8.8.8 turns out to be correct? :(
20100325 16:07:45-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | trunk currently only open for commits that are for 1.8 *and* 1.9.x, will branch 1.9 off at noon GMT on April 26th | feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100325 16:12:50< Crab__> shadowmaster: they might have blocked 'external' dns entirely. can you try asking a non-public dns server about it's own domain ?
20100325 16:13:05< Crab__> shadowmaster: e.g., try asking ns.nokia.com about nokia.com
20100325 16:13:08< Crab__> will it work ?
20100325 16:15:27< shadowmaster> um, yes
20100325 16:15:36< Ivanovic> okay, so far no packager has come screaming and trying to murder me, so 1.8.0 seems to not be too bad (as in "it seems to build")
20100325 16:15:47< Ivanovic> or packagers are sufficiently distracted by other things
20100325 16:15:48< shadowmaster> um. no
20100325 16:16:17< shadowmaster> Crab__: http://pastebin.com/tBqYHzBd
20100325 16:16:51< shadowmaster> 146.155.1.155 is the DNS relay from the university's network, configured in /etc/resolv.conf
20100325 16:17:02< Crab__> shadowmaster: enter just 'nokia.com', not 'host nokia.com'
20100325 16:18:35< shadowmaster> alright: http://pastebin.com/pT2t7gDi
20100325 16:19:05< Crab__> that's good.
20100325 16:19:27< Crab__> and "nslookup - 8.8.8.8" doesn't work (if used without 'host')?
20100325 16:20:05< shadowmaster> yeah, it gives 65.18.193.12 for wesnoth.org
20100325 16:21:01< Crab__> shadowmaster: so, the problem is on your notebook
20100325 16:23:20< shadowmaster> hm.
20100325 16:23:48< shadowmaster> okay, 8.8.8.8 working at last but it takes longer than the local relay anyway :|
20100325 16:26:45< stikonas> Ivanovic: yesterday I've sent you a few fixes for the Lithuanian announcement. Will you commit those?
20100325 16:26:57< Ivanovic> stikonas: i thought i had those already commited
20100325 16:27:28< Ivanovic> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?rev=41727&view=rev
20100325 16:28:36< stikonas> after that I found a few mistakes and fixed them
20100325 16:28:49< stikonas> I can resend the file
20100325 16:29:41< Ivanovic> right, got a file from yesterday, 3pm
20100325 16:29:56< stikonas> yeah, this one
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20100325 16:31:16< Ivanovic> thanks for the reminder
20100325 16:31:18< CIA-80> ivanovic * r41752 /website/start/1.8/ (index.et.html index.lt.html po/et.po po/lt.po): updated Estonian and Lithuanian announcement translations
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20100325 16:36:09< Ivanovic> off for a while, time for some shopping and hunting for food
20100325 16:44:55< AI0867> Ivanovic: I don't think I have any string changes
20100325 16:45:15< AI0867> none on the netbook I have with me and I don't remember making any stringchanges on my main laptop
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20100325 17:01:39< shadowmaster> hm. okay
20100325 17:02:03< shadowmaster> I think I determined why DNS appears to be flaky here: http://pastebin.com/QPZ9BgeW
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20100325 17:02:54< shadowmaster> um, or at least got half a clue.
20100325 17:03:42< shadowmaster> updated to Boost 1.42.x. Let's see how well this goes.
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20100325 17:49:13< fendrin> shadowmaster, zookeeper, AI0867 and all others that concern about the eclipse wml plugin, what else do you expect it to do? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/Kg7GLsMM
20100325 17:50:51< timotei21> I'm back:D
20100325 17:50:59< fendrin> timotei21: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/Kg7GLsMM
20100325 17:51:22< timotei21> cool, so here is what you want. right
20100325 17:51:23< timotei21> ?
20100325 17:52:59< fendrin> Right, that is roughly what we want to see. But this list may not be complete.
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20100325 17:53:40< timotei21> well, that's ok, I have enough information to start working on it... the ideas may come up during the development
20100325 17:54:29< fendrin> timotei21: Yes, but remember that you have not been accepted as gsoc student yet. So maybe you will not get paid for work that you do before the start of gsoc.
20100325 17:55:41< timotei21> lol, It's no problem...
20100325 17:55:53< timotei21> it's not everything about money, it's the community ;)
20100325 17:56:00< fendrin> timotei21: You should also have a look at data/schema.cfg. This is the format that will specify the syntax of wml.
20100325 17:56:46< fendrin> timotei21: Right, but some people just don't have time to participate at something they don't get paid for because there are several wifes with several children to feed for example.
20100325 17:56:46< timotei21> ok
20100325 17:57:01< timotei21> correct.
20100325 17:58:16< fendrin> timotei21: Anyway, contributing code before gsoc starts will enhance you chances for getting accepted.
20100325 17:58:24< timotei21> yes
20100325 17:58:38< fendrin> s/you/your
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20100325 18:03:26< fendrin> timotei21: We still need to see which part crap and my humble one will play in the further development of the plugin. Maybe we can work behind interfaces everyone in it's own domain. Depends on how much work the plugin will be and if you can get in done alone during the time of gsoc.
20100325 18:04:01< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: you saw that 1.8 is ready?
20100325 18:04:31< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: please make sure to name the mac binary that you upload Wesnoth_1.8.dmg
20100325 18:04:33< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: yup!
20100325 18:04:51< crimson_penguin> why that in particular?
20100325 18:05:23< fendrin> timotei21: Damn, misspelled crab. Sorry crab, but your name is just to similar to that ugly word.
20100325 18:05:54< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: because of the announcement translation, the link names are translateable and include the links
20100325 18:06:04< crimson_penguin> ohh, ok
20100325 18:06:20< crimson_penguin> should I set the version name to 1.8 too, not 1.8.0?
20100325 18:06:34< Ivanovic> uploading to USERNAME,wesnoth@frs.sourceforge.net:/home/frs/project/w/we/wesnoth/wesnoth-1.8/wesnoth-1.8.0
20100325 18:06:45< Ivanovic> ingame 1.8.0 should be shown
20100325 18:06:57< crimson_penguin> I mean the Mac version setting
20100325 18:07:05< Ivanovic> no idea what that exactly is
20100325 18:07:25< timotei21> me back
20100325 18:07:32< timotei21> have 2 general questions
20100325 18:07:46< timotei21> what does it mean:  s/you/your
20100325 18:07:55< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: when you get info in the Finder it shows a version number, or Wesnoth (Mac) menu > About, it shows it there too
20100325 18:07:58< timotei21> there were several times when you typed that
20100325 18:08:12< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: go for 1.8.0 there
20100325 18:08:17< crimson_penguin> ok
20100325 18:08:29< crimson_penguin> timotei21: that means "replace you with your in my last message"
20100325 18:08:33< Ivanovic> timotei21: some basic "substitute" syntax
20100325 18:08:49< crimson_penguin> s/find/replace/ is perl regex find/replace syntax
20100325 18:08:55< Ivanovic> as in "substitute every case of "you" in my last line by "your"
20100325 18:09:18< crimson_penguin> not every case, unless you put /g ;)
20100325 18:09:35< timotei21> oh cool (I don't know perl)
20100325 18:09:49< Ivanovic> no need to know perl for this, sed supports the same syntax
20100325 18:10:07< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 18:10:23< crimson_penguin> hah
20100325 18:10:26< timotei21> and the second one: here on (your) IRC, how should be conversations be? for e.g. when I'm talking with a friend, I tell him: brb food, brb something
20100325 18:10:32< timotei21> is this required here too?
20100325 18:10:37< timotei21> just to know
20100325 18:10:43< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: wait, so, I've got: -DPREFERENCES_DIR='"Library/Application Support/Wesnoth_1.8"' on filesystem.cpp, but... is that really gonna use ~/Library/...?
20100325 18:10:44< Ivanovic> depends
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20100325 18:11:24< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: the dir for app data like saves should be "1.8" only (as in "all following 1.8.x releases will use the same folder)
20100325 18:11:43< Ivanovic> and i don't know how this preferences dir stuff works on mac
20100325 18:11:53< crimson_penguin> yeah, I know that part
20100325 18:11:56< Ivanovic> i'd say: make it the same way as with 1.6.x since that worked
20100325 18:11:58< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 18:12:00< crimson_penguin> well, I'm looking at the code to make sure :)
20100325 18:12:10< Ivanovic> you mean that part of the code was changed?
20100325 18:12:24< Ivanovic> no idea, about this you should probably talk to YogiHH, sounds like his area of code
20100325 18:12:55< Ivanovic> for me, when setting the preferences dir in cmake it does always start from ~
20100325 18:13:02< crimson_penguin> ok good, that is correct - game_config::preferences_dir = home + std::string("/") + path;
20100325 18:13:13< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: no, I was just being paranoid ;)
20100325 18:13:18< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20100325 18:13:36< Ivanovic> you, uhm, could just have checked before uploading how it behaves with different user accounts
20100325 18:13:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 18:14:26< crimson_penguin> I wouldn't even need to do that, just check if it creates the folder where I expect
20100325 18:14:39< crimson_penguin> anyway, I haven't started compiling yet
20100325 18:15:03< Ivanovic> :)
20100325 18:15:11< crimson_penguin> so I'm using -Os... I'm tempted to switch to -O3, but it might be a dangerous change to make for such a big release, so I should probably just stick to what works
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20100325 18:19:55< fendrin> timotei21: I would do that if you are actively involved in a conversation and your absence may cause unwanted delays at the other side. Don't do it every time to avoid making to much noise in the channel. There is always the possibility to mark your avatar with "/away".
20100325 18:21:08< timotei21> ok
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20100325 18:46:19< Ivanovic> esr: ehm, regarding "fixed+closed" i have *not* meant the one you closed
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20100325 18:54:07< stikonas> Ivanovic: I have 1 string change (http://stikonas.homelinux.org/files/plural.diff) but I'm not sure if it is elligible for 1.8 branch
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20100325 19:01:33< timotei21> hello orfest
20100325 19:01:49-!- Aust [~Aust@205.143.219.240] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 19:02:11< orfest> timotei21: hi!
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20100325 19:07:45< AI0867> stikonas: I don't see why it wouldn't be
20100325 19:08:07< AI0867> though I'm not sure on plural stuff either
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20100325 19:08:42< Ivanovic> no idea if the patch is correct, but in theory it is well suited for the 1.8 branch
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20100325 19:12:21< stikonas> Ivanovic: do you know who can review it?
20100325 19:12:31< Ivanovic> stikonas: to be honest: no idea
20100325 19:13:19< stikonas> I think that I tested it, but maybe 3 months passed, so it is hard to remember
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20100325 19:25:30< timotei21> I'm reading the source files related to wml, and I've seen this line:
20100325 19:25:31< timotei21> Raises an exception if @a this is not valid.
20100325 19:25:41< timotei21> in config.hpp
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20100325 19:25:46< timotei21> what does it mean @a?
20100325 19:26:48< Ivanovic> once upon the time our syntax for highlighting/textformatting was using those "special chars"
20100325 19:27:00< Ivanovic> that is eg an @ at the beginning of s string made the string green
20100325 19:28:19< timotei21> ok
20100325 19:32:47-!- bhargav [~chatzilla@59.90.71.81] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
20100325 19:34:34-!- bhargav [~chatzilla@59.90.71.81] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100325 19:39:33< timotei21> config_clear_state() : c(NULL), mi(), vi(0)
20100325 19:39:41< timotei21> is this a constructor for multiple inheritance?
20100325 19:40:02< timotei21> I've never seen anything like this
20100325 19:40:33< timotei21> from here: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/7Gm6B2yQ
20100325 19:46:27< Crab_> timotei21: it's an initialization list
20100325 19:47:29< Crab_> timotei21: "...Before the body of the constructor is run, all of the constructors for its parent class and then for its fields are invoked. By default, the no-argument constructors are invoked. Initialization lists allow you to choose which constructor is called and what arguments that constructor receives. ..."
20100325 19:48:37-!- kblin [~kai@samba/team/kai] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 19:48:40< kblin> hi
20100325 19:48:42< timotei21> oh, understood
20100325 19:48:44< timotei21> thanks
20100325 19:48:51< Crab_> hi, kblin
20100325 19:49:12< kblin> Ivanovic: which reminds me
20100325 19:49:16< Ivanovic> huh?
20100325 19:49:21< Ivanovic> i'm for once innocent!
20100325 19:49:23< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 19:50:29< kblin> I'm still looking for people interested in using the media management system I'm working on. :)
20100325 19:51:08< kblin> I've tried to pimp it to Ivanovic and mordante on the GSoC mentor summit 2008, but it still lacked some features back then
20100325 19:51:36< Ivanovic> kblin: you should go to forums.wesnoth.org and leave a note for the artists there
20100325 19:51:37< kblin> would you be interested in having a look?
20100325 19:51:43< Ivanovic> our artists mainly work via the forums
20100325 19:52:02< Ivanovic> though you could also query our lead artist jetrel
20100325 19:52:13< Zarel> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29316&view=unread#unread
20100325 19:52:17< Ivanovic> he is often on freenode but tries to stay out of #wesnoth-dev because this sucks up all his free time
20100325 19:52:19< Zarel> Y'know, you guys _could_ just unban him.
20100325 19:52:33< Ivanovic> Zarel: kard sucks and is a constant trouble maker
20100325 19:52:46< Ivanovic> and yeah, that is just this one constant trouble maker all the time
20100325 19:52:48< Zarel> Ivanovic: He isn't kard, he's another guy who got his IP address.
20100325 19:53:17< Ivanovic> then it is a case of bad luck, but from what i heard this one is rather identical to kard at least looking at his posting style
20100325 19:53:25< Ivanovic> though noy and shadowmaster probably know more
20100325 19:53:25< Zarel> Oh, okay.
20100325 19:53:30< noy> ?
20100325 19:53:51< Ivanovic> noy: the lastest moron in the forums with "damn it, unban me!!!"
20100325 19:54:06< Ivanovic>  wtf_is_this  
20100325 19:54:08< noy> Zarel: I've had to deal with enough sexual harrassment from him not to
20100325 19:54:15< Zarel> rofl
20100325 19:54:36< noy> Zarel: its Kard
20100325 19:55:04< kblin> Ivanovic: thanks for the pointer, I'll try the forums :)
20100325 19:55:29< kblin> Ivanovic: you do have a way to check out the media you folks currently have?
20100325 19:55:30< Ivanovic> kblin: you're welcome
20100325 19:55:39< Ivanovic> kblin: svn.wesnoth.org
20100325 19:56:02< Ivanovic> that is: there is the stuff directly available in trunk
20100325 19:56:15< Ivanovic> plus a resources branch with some gimp and whatever files
20100325 19:56:29< Ivanovic> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/branches/resources/
20100325 19:57:09< kblin> oh, I see
20100325 19:57:11< Zarel> kblin: Have another (int *)pointer
20100325 19:57:36< kblin> oooh, sweet, is that a 32bit one or a 64bit one?
20100325 19:57:51< Ivanovic> 16bit
20100325 19:57:56< Ivanovic> we are a little retro
20100325 19:57:57< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 19:58:05< kblin> Ivanovic: I see. I need a "don't scan this dir" setting.
20100325 19:58:12 * kblin files a feature request
20100325 19:58:40< Ivanovic> :)
20100325 19:58:59< kblin> I'll see when I can get that lazy bum of lead developer to fix it :)
20100325 19:59:30< Ivanovic> yeah, he really should get out of his hammock and get some work done
20100325 19:59:31< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 20:00:29< Ivanovic> afk for some 30mins
20100325 20:00:57< Gambit> kblin: He's busy at his new job.
20100325 20:01:45< kblin> Gambit: bah, that's what he said
20100325 20:01:52< kblin> how much work can getting a phd be?
20100325 20:02:08< Gambit> phd? No. He's flipping burgers.
20100325 20:02:37< Gambit> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=417241#p417241
20100325 20:05:29-!- Mythological [Mythologic@77.28.123.169] has quit []
20100325 20:05:35< kblin> Gambit: ah, I'm talking about the wombat lead developer, not the wesnoth lead developer
20100325 20:06:51< fendrin> Crab_:  http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/Kg7GLsMM 
20100325 20:06:55< kblin> I try not to insult developers of projects where I just dropped into the -dev channel
20100325 20:07:09< kblin> at least if I don't know them
20100325 20:08:25< loonycyborg> kblin: That seemed to be irony, not insult to me..
20100325 20:09:25< kblin> loonycyborg: true, mostly because I happen to be the person I was bitching about :)
20100325 20:09:41-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@d152098.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 20:09:47< kblin> nice forum thread, btw :)
20100325 20:09:53-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@d152098.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Changing host]
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20100325 20:10:06< kblin> it's nice to see that there's whiny gamers everywhere :)
20100325 20:12:18< Crab_> fendrin: that's good. a few things can be done easier, a few things require changing the wesnoth c++ code, but overall, looks good to me.
20100325 20:12:34< fendrin> What can be done easier?
20100325 20:14:53< Crab_> fendrin: 'launch map in wesnoth map editor' can be done via associating the .map file type with the 'wesnoth editor' (maybe with a little c++ patch). then, you'd be able to edit the map by 'opening' it with the right editor
20100325 20:16:07< Crab_> fendrin: so, only the 'select text and launch as map' and 'launch map for current scenario' helpers would need to be coded.. but that's details..
20100325 20:16:29< fendrin> Crab_: Yes, would that also work when clicking at the attribute?
20100325 20:16:42< Crab_> some glue code should be required
20100325 20:17:33< fendrin> Okay, can you think of things I forget, not counting the syntax highlighting?
20100325 20:18:25< Crab_> we need to allow to the user to see the 'macro-expanded' version of his code, we need to integrate with wmllint and wmlindent
20100325 20:18:48< Crab_> wmllint integration: place 'warning markers' near those lines of code which are bad
20100325 20:19:30< fendrin> Crab_: I would like to see the macro coding in a floating box, like it is when you move the mouse over a java method.
20100325 20:19:39< kblin> anyway, thanks for a new feature idea and the fun conversation, back to work for me
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20100325 20:19:58< Crab_> fendrin: yes, that's a good way..
20100325 20:20:27< fendrin> And of course it will jump to the macro if you press F3 when the macro name is highlighted.
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20100325 20:29:54< fendrin> timotei21: ^
20100325 20:30:05< timotei21> updated the pastebin?
20100325 20:30:26< timotei21> or the conversation? (I read it already)
20100325 20:30:36< fendrin> timotei21: No, it's still work in progress. I meant the conversation.
20100325 20:31:02< timotei21> xchat is on "highlight" new chat messages, so I don't miss anything
20100325 20:31:29< timotei21> right now, I'm reading about the WML syntax and stuff like that 
20100325 20:33:43< fendrin> timotei21: Cool, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
20100325 20:33:54< timotei21> ok
20100325 20:34:13< timotei21> It's just amazing on how much work has been put in this project
20100325 20:34:50< fendrin> timotei21: Well, Wesnoth is the openoffice under the open source games :-)
20100325 20:34:58< timotei21> yeah:D
20100325 20:35:00-!- orfest [~kvirc@43.ngu.ac-tel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20100325 20:35:39< gabba> YogiHH: around?
20100325 20:35:49< YogiHH> gabba: yep
20100325 20:36:18< gabba> YogiHH: I'd like to know what you think of this idea: http://pastebin.com/gmHNFj0J
20100325 20:36:29< gabba> YogiHH: I had that conversation yesterday
20100325 20:37:36< YogiHH> gabba: reading...
20100325 20:38:02< Gambit> The gamelist in RC1 resizes when you check/uncheck "No ignored" box.
20100325 20:39:06< Rhonda> fendrin: It does on neither exclusively, that is done within sdl and through some alternative dependencies, me thinks.
20100325 20:42:09< Crab_> fendrin: I was thinking about restricting the list of allowed macroses, to make sure that 'almost all' of the macros are 'self-contained' (where each macro closes the tag that is opened by that macro).
20100325 20:42:20< YogiHH> gabba: ok, i got it. What i would like to know first is what your near or ultimate goal of undoing replay actions is.
20100325 20:43:44< gabba> the near goal is so that allies can see what each other are doing, including undoable actions
20100325 20:43:49< gabba> cf my proposal
20100325 20:44:00< YogiHH> ok
20100325 20:44:26< gabba> the far goal would be to complete that to have full undo rewind, since it's basically the same thing, extended to more actions
20100325 20:44:52< YogiHH> gabba: in which situation, watching replays?
20100325 20:45:05< gabba> Yes, I think that would be the main use case
20100325 20:45:23< gabba> Like, "go back to turn X"
20100325 20:45:38< gabba> or back up a few actions to see an attack you missed
20100325 20:45:51< YogiHH> gabba: i agree, i can't imagine that useful for normal gameplay, as there are always too many actions that can't be undone
20100325 20:46:18< gabba> YogiHH: yes
20100325 20:47:03< Crab_> gabba: you can also try to use the 'start-of-turn' snapshot for perfect rewind of current turn
20100325 20:47:27< gabba> ah, didn't know about that one
20100325 20:47:28< Crab_> gabba: or 'start-of-delayed-shroud-updates' snapshot
20100325 20:47:56< Crab_> gabba: you can code it :)
20100325 20:48:05< Crab_> gabba: it's very similar to autosave
20100325 20:48:24< gabba> Lol, I thought you were saying it's a current feature
20100325 20:48:26< YogiHH> gabba: ok, i think that undo for allied actions is doable and a good idea. It might also fit nicely in a GSoC time schedule, at least i don't see anything right now that should get out of hands.
20100325 20:48:55< YogiHH> gabba: Extending the same mechanism to further actions is extremely hard imho.
20100325 20:49:16< gabba> YogiHH: good news at least for allies actions
20100325 20:49:19< YogiHH> gabba: That is mainly, because replays were designed as a one-way street from the start
20100325 20:50:03< YogiHH> gabba: Some things could be rewinded with additional information. But also sometimes that amount of information is quite huge.
20100325 20:50:16< gabba> YogiHH: off the top of your mind, which actions would cause particular trouble to rewind?
20100325 20:50:21< YogiHH> gabba: Think for example of a unit dying in a fight or advancing
20100325 20:51:02< fendrin> Rhonda: Note that sdl-pulseaudio doesn't work in debian, only sdl-alsa does.
20100325 20:51:11< gabba> YogiHH: actually, those sound medium-hard only
20100325 20:51:14< YogiHH> gabba: You would have to store most of the unit status in the undo information
20100325 20:51:25-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20100325 20:51:31< gabba> YogiHH: right now I'm thinking that the worst would be WML events
20100325 20:52:08< YogiHH> gabba: Events are probably even harder. Think of "if you kill the orc leader and step on his keep, you find a treasure of 100 gold".
20100325 20:52:39< YogiHH> gabba: This is defined via WML and the flexibility is immense
20100325 20:53:03< gabba> YogiHH: yeah, since an event can pretty much change anything in the scenario (from what I understand), the only way of going back would be to take a full snapshot of the game state
20100325 20:53:12< Crab_> gabba: what do you think about using a snapshot-based undo system ? basically, 'we're at T=9, to undo until T=3, we take our snapshot taken at T=1, and silently replay up to T=3'
20100325 20:53:25< YogiHH> gabba: It is bad enough that replays have trouble with it going forward sometimes, because often events are not recorded in the replay but triggered
20100325 20:54:24< YogiHH> gabba: Yes, i think snapshots are a way easier alternative for this, albeit pretty preformance heavy
20100325 20:55:07< Crab_> YogiHH: but the number of bugs will be a lot smaller
20100325 20:55:22< YogiHH> Crab_: What makes you think that?
20100325 20:55:30< gabba> Crab_: that could work, however unlike the real rewind I was considering, it's quite a different feature from the "Show undoable moves with allies" that's my main objective
20100325 20:55:46< YogiHH> Crab_: Or do you mean bugs compared to single action rewinding?
20100325 20:56:36< Crab_> YogiHH: because 'the undo via snapshots' reuses the existing 'replay forward' code, only adding the 'silent' flag to the replay functionality
20100325 20:56:59< Crab_> YogiHH: so, no 'replay backwards' things
20100325 20:57:11< YogiHH> Crab_: Yes, i agree on that
20100325 20:57:36< Crab_> YogiHH: and there's already 'fast replay' mode which modifies the way things are replayed...
20100325 20:57:46< gabba> Reverting WML events would work, though, if every sub-event they can trigger is rewindable itself
20100325 20:58:19< gabba> So you'd store the sequence of sub-events and undo them one by one
20100325 20:58:37< Crab_> gabba: to do that, you'd often need to store parts of the earlier snapshot
20100325 20:58:41< timotei21> fendrin: ok guys, I'm off
20100325 20:58:51< gabba> Lots of work to get there and not for the GSoC, but maybe possible
20100325 20:58:52< YogiHH> gabba: Believe me, you will enter a debugging hell.
20100325 20:58:57< timotei21> see you tomorrow
20100325 20:59:30< Crab_> gabba: e.g., if you have an event 'turn all mice and cats into cheese', then you'll need to store info about 'where were cats, where were mice' , since after the event, you'd have only cheese on the map.
20100325 21:00:04< gabba> YogiHH: I believe you. However this could be added, event by event, over a long time
20100325 21:00:15< YogiHH> gabba: One of the biggest problems of corrupted replays (and therefore OOS in mp) is the fact, that replays do things slightly different than the normal gameplay code. Even those small differences have potential to break things pretty bad.
20100325 21:00:30< Crab_> gabba: and all wml creators would be required to implement undo functionality to their code ?
20100325 21:00:39< Crab_> gabba: think about lua wml
20100325 21:00:43< YogiHH> gabba: Ah, i see, you are young and still have lots of time ;)
20100325 21:01:13-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Quit: good night]
20100325 21:01:18< Ivanovic> Gambit: when i flip burgers (in summer) i tend to do so at bbq at home and directly eat those burgers together with a tasty beer
20100325 21:01:24< Ivanovic> i would not call this job but fun
20100325 21:01:25< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 21:01:33< Gambit> :)
20100325 21:02:39< gabba> YogiHH: well, I'd like to fix this as well if possible, i.e. replay and standard action call the exact same object to do the action, and undo info is stored at the same time
20100325 21:02:59< Ivanovic> YogiHH: i assume that you read the logs, i think someone left messages for you
20100325 21:03:21< gabba> Ivanovic: I did at least
20100325 21:03:38< YogiHH> gabba: that would be nice, however i don't think it will fit into GSoC. I have done this for the move-action a while ago
20100325 21:03:53< gabba> Crab_: yeah, lua WML though is probably the stumbling block
20100325 21:04:06-!- Ken_Oh [~briang@static-71-178-174-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100325 21:04:33< gabba> YogiHH: but if I merge undo and replay, I might as well do this for all undoable actions, isn't it?
20100325 21:04:35< Ivanovic> and i think i could celebrate tagging of 1.8.0 with a tasty maibock now...
20100325 21:04:40< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: uploading btw
20100325 21:04:44< YogiHH> Ivanovic: That's a pretty bold assumption ;)
20100325 21:05:18-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@p3EE23513.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 21:05:48< YogiHH> gabba: "do this for all undoable actions": What exactly is "this"?
20100325 21:06:08-!- NefariousR [~reagan@nat-168-7-255-234.rice.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 21:06:47< gabba> YogiHH: sorry, by "this", I mean making the replay and standard action call the same object, and then use this object to store undo info, sync across the network, etc
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20100325 21:07:13< Crab_> gabba:  about "Show undoable moves with allies" - well, if  you make a gamestate snapshot when entering 'delayed updates mode', then, you'll be able to do the 'shared undoable moves' on top of that snapshot, and then, when it'll be time to replay, do a thing pretty similar to what git-svn does - reset the state back to that snapshot and apply 'prepared moves' on top of it.
20100325 21:07:48< YogiHH> gabba: yes, but i would see it as a bonus if there is time left, nothing i would try to accomplish from the start
20100325 21:08:34< Crab_> gabba: think of the similarity between 'delayed updates' and 'local commits' in git-svn - things which are not yet committed to 'head' (shared by all 'players'), but are visible locally and to allies to whom we've pushed them.
20100325 21:08:37< NefariousR> Yo, sorry to just jump in, but I'm interested in tackling a programming project for Google Code. Is there anyone on that I should talk to?
20100325 21:08:45< gabba> Crab_: interesting, I hadn't thought of that approach
20100325 21:09:05< Crab_> NefariousR: hi! depends on what you want to do :) have you picked a suitable project yet ?
20100325 21:09:40< Crab_> gabba: this way, you'll also kill all causality violations and make sighted events work the same with/without DSU
20100325 21:10:15-!- Tesafilmchen [~quassel@p5B2753CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100325 21:11:41< Crab_> gabba: basically, on applying DSU, the game state is to be reset (a quick operation, since it, in most cases, is c++ only - no serialization) and all the moves are to be done. and, if you hit a 'merge conflict' - sighted event which interrupts the sequence, the player will have to 'merge' - change the other planned moves to account for new things
20100325 21:11:54< gabba> YogiHH: Ok, so to summarize, you think that at first I should just add replay functionality directly to the replay events that interest me,
20100325 21:11:58< Crab_> gabba: you'll be able to allow the players to plan attacks during DSU, as well
20100325 21:12:25< NefariousR> Crab_: I've looked at a few. The LUA AI looked the most appealing. I don't know LUA, but I'm fairly experienced in other functional languages. I also was looking into the Eclipse plug-in and spritesheets.
20100325 21:12:31< YogiHH> gabba: undo functionality, yes
20100325 21:12:48< gabba> YogiHH: um, yes
20100325 21:13:02< gabba> YogiHH: which would mean that the local undo code would stay the same for now
20100325 21:13:12< YogiHH> yes
20100325 21:13:18< Crab_> gabba: since you'd be able to stop the 'rebase' part when the attack is resolved, and treat a non-undoable thing (fight) as a 'upstream change which conflicts with local changes', and let the player 'merge' it - change the rest of planned moves to account for combat outcome
20100325 21:13:43< gabba> YogiHH: then if there's time, I can make the replay action the "real" action, and integrate the local action and undo code in it
20100325 21:13:57< YogiHH> exactly
20100325 21:14:16< gabba> YogiHH: thanks for your advice!
20100325 21:14:33< YogiHH> you are welcome :)
20100325 21:14:58< gabba> Crab_: reading ^^
20100325 21:15:00< Crab_> NefariousR: do you have experience in eclipse plugin development ?
20100325 21:16:10< NefariousR> Crab_: unfortunately, no. I've used a lot of Eclipse plug-ins? lol
20100325 21:16:24< NefariousR> Crab_: I'm definitely preferring the AI or spritesheet projects
20100325 21:16:45< gabba> lol, the sprite sheets project (sorry, just ignore me)
20100325 21:16:50< Ivanovic> YogiHH: which one?
20100325 21:16:59< Ivanovic> the one about the maibock or the one about you reading the logs?
20100325 21:17:08< Crab_> NefariousR: about spreadsheets, see http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29311
20100325 21:17:10< YogiHH> Ivanovic: me reading the logs :)
20100325 21:17:13< Ivanovic> somehow i fear the answer being "both"...
20100325 21:17:15< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 21:17:20< YogiHH> lol
20100325 21:18:24< gabba> NefariousR: you're welcome to join the thread ^, it's gonna be crowded in there
20100325 21:18:26< Ivanovic> though i just opened a bottle of maibock, so on this side i am safe that the assumption is correct
20100325 21:18:27< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 21:18:33< Crab_> gabba: basically, treat your undoable moves as 'local commits', 'non-undoable' things as 'upstream changes',  'sharing your undoable moves' as 'sending patches to another developer', 'applying your undoable moves' as 'committing your changes to head'
20100325 21:18:45< Crab_> gabba: then, everything becomes pretty clear :)
20100325 21:19:04< Ivanovic> ilor: you saw the myriads of new bugs that are assigned to you?
20100325 21:19:12< Ivanovic> if not, head over to the bugtracker and have a look
20100325 21:19:14< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 21:19:27< gabba> Crab_: err, yes, I superficially understand your comparison, but I'm not using git-svn yet
20100325 21:19:41< Crab_> gabba: since you can reuse the 'merge' \ 'conflict' concepts to deal with the 'unexpected an not undoable' things which might happen as the result of your moves/attacks
20100325 21:20:00< ilor> Ivanovic: https://gna.org/my/items.php does look considerably different from what I remember :P
20100325 21:20:07< Ivanovic> ilor: that is: do you feel responsible for some of the multiplayer error log stuff?
20100325 21:20:19< Crab_> gabba: well, s/local commits/local modifications for svn-like comparison :)
20100325 21:20:26< ilor> Ivanovic: what's that specifically?
20100325 21:20:28 * YogiHH can't help but rofl
20100325 21:20:41< Ivanovic> talking about the /help stuff in the mp lobby
20100325 21:21:01< Ivanovic> if you feel responsible you could directly fix the strings that should be translateable
20100325 21:21:05< Ivanovic> cf https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15653
20100325 21:21:26< Ivanovic> there seem to be several strings in src/menu_events.cpp that are not marked translateable though they should be
20100325 21:21:45< NefariousR> Crab_: I'll check that out. Is there a thread for the LUA/C++ interface?
20100325 21:22:12< ilor> Ivanovic: that's... been there for a long, long time ;)
20100325 21:22:31< Crab_> NefariousR: no, I prefer to discuss things in irc, you can see the #wesnoth-dev logs ( irclogs.wesnoth.org )
20100325 21:22:33< Ivanovic> are you sure that me asking svn blame will say the same?
20100325 21:22:35< Ivanovic> ;)
20100325 21:23:40< Crab_> NefariousR: the files to see are src/ai/composite/engine_lua.cpp , src/scripting/lua.cpp , data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg
20100325 21:23:42< ilor> Ivanovic: It's likely my code, but I coded it before the GSoC two years ago :P
20100325 21:24:12< ilor> btw, https://gna.org/bugs/?15650 anyone remeber if that was the case with old lobby?
20100325 21:24:21< Ivanovic> using svn blame on those lines there is mainly alink listed with r38493 but also ilor with r25861
20100325 21:24:24< Crab_> NefariousR: anything else ? ask questions :)
20100325 21:24:46< ilor> Ivanovic: iirc alink was just adding some commands, but generally it's mine
20100325 21:24:48< Ivanovic> ilor: i think in the old lobby you got shown the chat that took place while you were around
20100325 21:25:26< gabba> Crab_: ok, so to summarize your idea, you want to sync the non-undoable moves just as now, as a common baseline between all clients,
20100325 21:25:32< Ivanovic> so: "some chat" -> you enter a game -> back to lobby: you still see "some chat" and the stuff that is added after coming back
20100325 21:25:35< NefariousR> Crab_: I think that's it for the moment. I'll take a look at those logs. Thanks!
20100325 21:25:46< gabba> Crab_: then on top of that, send undoable moves to allies
20100325 21:26:03< Crab_> gabba: yes, "sync the non-undoable moves just as now" -> that's the same as "I commit, you update and see my changes'
20100325 21:26:33< Crab_> gabba: " then on top of that, send undoable moves to allies" -> that is "I do a local modification, and send my friends a patch"
20100325 21:26:37< gabba> Crab_: when there's an undo, RE-SEND all undoable moves including the new ones, and each allies reverts to the baseline and plays those
20100325 21:26:52< ilor> Ivanovic: you sure about that
20100325 21:26:53< ilor> ?
20100325 21:26:58< Ivanovic> ilor: quite
20100325 21:27:08< Ivanovic> though i am fine with: "won't fix"
20100325 21:27:16< gabba> Crab_: I detect a potential visual problem, though: can you do an invisible replay?
20100325 21:27:18< Crab_> gabba: " when there's an undo, RE-SEND all undoable moves including the new ones, and each allies reverts to the baseline and plays those" -> I commit my local modificaitons to trunk, and my enemies just update, and my friends firstly revert the patch and then update.
20100325 21:27:20< Ivanovic> "this is the new lobby and in those regards it behaves different"
20100325 21:27:26< ilor> Ivanovic: nah, I'm don't want outright regressions 
20100325 21:27:36< YogiHH> gabba: you can, quick replay in mp does it
20100325 21:27:47< gabba> Crab_: alright, now I get your analogy better
20100325 21:27:50< Ivanovic> it is not too much of a regression since you got nothing of the chat taking place while you are not around anyway
20100325 21:27:51< gabba> YogiHH: ah, good
20100325 21:28:06< ilor> that is I know there will be some (hey, tab completion is gone) but those do get a higher priority on my "todo"
20100325 21:28:08< Crab_> gabba: one way to deal with it is 'quick replay' or 'silent replay', another is to change the graphics to account for the fact that there's still some planned moves
20100325 21:28:22< Crab_> gabba: you should see how git-svn works, too
20100325 21:28:24< YogiHH> gabba: It could even do it all invisible, the turn updates are just there for your convenience
20100325 21:29:06< Crab_> gabba: but, basically, imagine that you 'commit' your changes move-by-move
20100325 21:29:07< gabba> Crab_: (yes, I want to use it, since maintaining various patches in the same local copy is not fun with svn)
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20100325 21:29:26< Crab_> gabba: and, imagine that your first committed move triggers a 'sighted event'
20100325 21:29:55< Crab_> think of this 'sighted' event as a 'someone else committing to trunk just after you committed your first move'
20100325 21:30:14< Crab_> gabba: what will happen in svn after you try to commit a second move after that?
20100325 21:30:28< Ivanovic> ilor: it would be good if you could have a look into making those help messages for mp lobby usage translateable right now
20100325 21:30:38< Ivanovic> so that it can be commited into trunk and 1.8 now
20100325 21:30:55< gabba> Crab_: if it affects the same file, a merge or a conflict
20100325 21:31:01< ilor> Ivanovic: right now might be problematic, tomorrow might be more feasible
20100325 21:31:02< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Argh, string freeze! Sorry, totally forgot about that :(
20100325 21:31:16< Crab_> gabba: yes, two potential situations: (1) your changes (the next of your planned moves) and upstream changes (evil things that the 'sighted' event has done) merge correctly, then you can just commit ('continue with your moves')
20100325 21:31:40< Crab_> gabba: or, (2) you need to merge
20100325 21:31:53< Crab_> gabba: your UI will show you conflicts
20100325 21:32:04< Crab_> gabba: e.g., mark units which cannot continue with their chosen moves
20100325 21:32:20< Crab_> gabba: and then you need to amend them, change their scheduled commands
20100325 21:32:34< Crab_> (you continue to send patches to your friends, so they can see your progress)
20100325 21:32:56< gabba> Crab_: wait, you're viewing this from the point of view of the "current player"?
20100325 21:33:07< Crab_> gabba: yes
20100325 21:33:25< Crab_> gabba: then, you hit commit again, and your next move is committed (and is seen by all)
20100325 21:33:35< Ivanovic> ilor: tomorrow is, uhm, problematic, then things are branched off
20100325 21:33:54< ilor> Ivanovic: I'll will try today
20100325 21:33:56-!- NefariousR [~reagan@nat-168-7-255-234.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100325 21:33:59< Ivanovic> okay, thanks
20100325 21:34:16< Crab_> note that if there's no conflicts, your friends can immediately apply the rest of your old patch on top of the new game state, so there'll be no visual glitches and jumps for them
20100325 21:34:22< YogiHH> Ivanovic: didn't quite get your remark today at 18:12, what area of code is it about?
20100325 21:34:53 * ilor is tired today... I'll will. geez.
20100325 21:35:05< Crab_> gabba: then, imagine that after your next action, which is an attack, the unit which you had attacked, dies
20100325 21:35:31< Crab_> gabba: that is also the action which can force you to 'merge', amend your future plans to account for the fact that you have killed an enemy unit
20100325 21:35:39< Ivanovic> YogiHH: crimson_penguin had a question regarding the filesystem/store whatever stuff and i thought you might be able to solve it
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20100325 21:35:41< gabba> Crab_: ok, but here you're assuming some kind of system whereby planned/undoable moves have an order, and when you update shroud, they're checked one by one
20100325 21:35:54< crimson_penguin> oh, it's fine, I checked the source
20100325 21:35:58< gabba> Crab_: I guess you said that earlier and I didn't get it
20100325 21:36:04< ilor> mordante: I'm getting the assert again when launching two wesnoth instances locally on a local wesnothd
20100325 21:36:12< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Actually, i'm not familiar with that
20100325 21:36:29< ilor> mordante: src/gui/widgets/scrollbar_container.cpp:625
20100325 21:36:30< Ivanovic> okay, does not matter anyway, since crimson_penguin already solved it himself
20100325 21:36:47< Crab_> gabba: yes, we need a strict order of moves. that's actually pretty clear -imagine that you want to attack a single enemy three times - you definitely want to set the order.
20100325 21:37:19< Crab_> gabba: most of the time, it'll be a 'native' order - e.g. the order of local commits in git-svn is the same as the order in which you commited them locally.
20100325 21:37:49< gabba> Crab_: and you would introduce the possibility to give an attack order but not execute it yet, and still give other, undoable moves after this one
20100325 21:37:51< Crab_> gabba: so, if you select your planned moves in sequence, they'll be 'committed' in the same sequence. if you code an interface to see/change the ordering, even better.
20100325 21:37:57< Crab_> gabba: yes
20100325 21:38:05< Crab_> gabba: and your allies will see your attacks
20100325 21:38:24< Crab_> gabba: you can even give a screen to see the 'total' odds of attack (e.g. 3 attackers on a single defender - what are the odds?
20100325 21:38:28< gabba> Crab_: nifty, I'm starting to like
20100325 21:38:45< gabba> Crab_: to like it
20100325 21:39:00< Crab_> gabba: the most good point is that that system is proven for version control :
20100325 21:39:05< Crab_> gabba: so, it'll work
20100325 21:39:27< Crab_> gabba: note that the C++ code for 'multiple attackers on a single defender' is already there, ai uses it a lot.
20100325 21:39:40< Crab_> gabba: you'll actually allow a human (and his allies) to see it :)
20100325 21:39:49< ilor> mordante: ah, just noticed my go script passes --new-widgets to the wesnoth instances, removing it makes it not crash
20100325 21:39:49< gabba> Crab_: aha
20100325 21:40:04< Crab_> gabba: and, you'd allow to 'amend' the proposed attacks after the first is done.
20100325 21:40:39< Crab_> gabba: e.g, the human might attack with the archmage first, hit 0 / 4 attacks, and decide that this is a bad day to attack, and reroute other units elsewhere.
20100325 21:40:42< Rhonda> fendrin: So? It's not a dependency that I set, neither is it a direct dependency of wesnoth. wesnoth depends on libsdl1.2debian which has the alternative dependencies.
20100325 21:40:59< gabba> Crab_: so, this whole "share undoable moves thing" is rather turning into an "attack planning whiteboard"
20100325 21:41:14< Rhonda> fendrin: And it might well be that the pulseaudio thing actually does work in debian too but requires special configuration.
20100325 21:41:29< Crab_> gabba: yes. your local workspace, your playground. shareable with selected players (be it allies or enemies or spectators)
20100325 21:42:11< Crab_> gabba: nothing prevents you from adding a functionality to receive patches from your allies/observers back - to allow them to change your battle plan or propose changes to it.
20100325 21:43:04< Crab_> gabba: also note that both SVN and replay code are 'forward only' - once a commit hits svn server, it's there, and there's no easy way to forget about it.
20100325 21:43:07< gabba> Crab_: about the interface to see/change the ordering and amending moves, it doesn't sound trivial to design and implement, though
20100325 21:43:20< Crab_> gabba: well, native ordering is good enough
20100325 21:43:34< Crab_> gabba: amending is really needed to get it right
20100325 21:43:52< Crab_> gabba: since basically you need a good 'interface for merging'.
20100325 21:44:11< Crab_> gabba: you need to highlight 'conflicts' in red
20100325 21:44:14< gabba> Crab_: "receiving patches" from your allies observers has a really cool sound from a programmer's point of view :)
20100325 21:45:05< Crab_> also, you need to have a 'automerging' feature to deal with situations where nothing has really changed (e.g., if the sighted event has done a message and changed a variable, you can just continue with your battle plan.. or amend it if you don't like the message :) )
20100325 21:45:20< gabba> Crab_: the conflict detection might be a bit complicated, too
20100325 21:46:00< Crab_> gabba: why ? foreach unit_order: if (!unit_order.valid()) add_conflict(unit_order)
20100325 21:46:21< Crab_> gabba: steal the 'unit_order.valid()' part from the ai - src/ai/actions.cpp 
20100325 21:46:24< gabba> Crab_: the valid() part
20100325 21:46:34< Crab_> gabba: it was done by me in 2009
20100325 21:46:46< Crab_> gabba: since the ai needs to know if an order is valid before executing it
20100325 21:46:47< gabba> Crab_: ah, if something already exists, good
20100325 21:47:11< Crab_> gabba: you can extend it to detect potential future conflicts.
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20100325 21:47:20< gabba> yes
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20100325 21:47:40< Crab_> gabba: think of '20 walking corpses against a paladin which has 1 hex in front of him'
20100325 21:48:35< Crab_> gabba: can you plan send all your WCs to kill him via that 1 hex ? probably, yes, and since he'll usually kill them with a counter, those moves don't really conflict with each other even through they target the same hex in dst.
20100325 21:48:50< gabba> Crab_: hmm, good example
20100325 21:49:09< Crab_> "foreach unit_order: if (!unit_order.valid()) add_conflict(unit_order)" will work good for start.
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20100325 21:49:11< gabba> Crab_: the first that survives creates a conflict
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20100325 21:49:28< Crab_> gabba: yes, if it's not the last one :))
20100325 21:50:20< Crab_> gabba: I really like the interface enhancements which are possible, in particular 'the ability to see the combat outcome of several units attacking an enemy for you and allies'
20100325 21:51:14< gabba> Crab_: you mean some kind of probability display?
20100325 21:52:09< Crab_> gabba: yes, similar to the current one for 1 attacker and 1 defender
20100325 21:52:20< Crab_> gabba: just for N attackers and 1 defender.
20100325 21:52:38< Crab_> gabba: bonus points if you make it easy to add/remove/swap potential attackers 
20100325 21:52:47-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | trunk currently only open for commits that are for 1.8 *and* 1.9.x, will branch 1.9 off at noon GMT on March 26th | feature freeze active! | 70 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100325 21:52:56< Crab_> gabba: the backend c++ code which calculates the % and hp is done
20100325 21:53:22< gabba> Crab_: also, it would be possible with the same system to allow people to plan moves when it's not their turn, at the cost of some heavy conflict/merging if the others moves in the same zone
20100325 21:53:34< Crab_> gabba: yes
20100325 21:53:42< Crab_> gabba: exactly like it should be
20100325 21:53:42< gabba> Crab_: the famous feature boucman was asking for
20100325 21:53:53< Crab_> gabba: with the *same* backend code
20100325 21:54:09< gabba> Crab_: I do like to kill two birds with one stone :)
20100325 21:54:41< gabba> Crab_: I thought the "second bird" would be the backwards replay, but it doesn't sound very feasible after all
20100325 21:55:15< gabba> Crab_: even though in my mind it's much more elegant that "backtrack to baseline and replay", every time that someone commits a single move
20100325 21:56:03< Crab_> gabba: well, note that if there's no conflicts, you can make it more elegant
20100325 21:56:20< ilor> Ivanovic: you want the help messages for /commands translateable, correct?
20100325 21:56:41< Ivanovic> ilor: yes, i think this would make sense
20100325 21:56:57< gabba> Crab_: yes, apply the commit without disturbing the current patch, if possible
20100325 21:57:01< Crab_> gabba: yes
20100325 21:57:16< gabba> Crab_: the vocabulary you've chosen does get useful :P
20100325 21:57:45< Crab_> gabba: the task that we need to solve here are very similar, so both the vocabulary and solutions work.
20100325 21:58:31< gabba> Crab_: I'll have to re-read the chapter of Beautiful Code about this system in svn
20100325 21:59:22< Crab_> ok :) it'll be really interesting to make it happen.
20100325 21:59:44< gabba> Crab_: but to come back for a second to rewinding replays, I think even Lua WML could be undoable, since what it does eventually boils down to a set of calls to the C++ API
20100325 21:59:57< gabba> Crab_: so if each one of those is undoable, it works :P
20100325 22:01:04< gabba> Crab_: just speculating anyways, since your approach is much more realistic -- and you actually know the code, unlike me who has just scratched the surface
20100325 22:01:08< Crab_> gabba: yes, you're right. from a theoretical point of view :
20100325 22:02:05< gabba> Crab_: I mean, photoshop allows full undo for insanely complex actions, so if we reeeally wanted it we could do it
20100325 22:02:27< gabba> Crab_: or GIMP for that matter
20100325 22:03:05< gabba> Crab_: but I suspect the use snapshots instead of reversible actions for many things, which eats up memory and processing time like mad... and they're not networked
20100325 22:03:19< Crab_> gabba: yes, but actually it boils down to series of partial\copy-on-write snapshots...
20100325 22:03:39< gabba> right
20100325 22:04:08< Crab_> gabba: so, simply using 1 moving snapshot ('svn trunk' in our terminology) is better.
20100325 22:06:00< gabba> Crab_: yep. Thanks a lot for developing your idea in depth.
20100325 22:06:08< Soliton> ilor: is it still possible to use the old lobby or is that code gone?
20100325 22:07:19< Crab_> gabba: np :) if it'd lead to a better and more interesting proposal, that's a Good Thing.
20100325 22:07:33< gabba> gotta go now, bye everyone
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20100325 22:07:46-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | trunk currently only open for commits that are for 1.8 *and* 1.9.x, will branch 1.9 off at noon GMT on March 26th | feature freeze active! | 71 bugs, 255 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100325 22:14:40< ilor> when does parsing a variable name in VGETTEXT stop, i.e. can I do ($var) or '$var' in a string and expect a var symbol to be used?
20100325 22:14:55< ilor> Soliton: as far as I know someone removed it
20100325 22:19:30< CIA-80> soliton * r41753 /trunk/doc/man/ (wesnoth.6 wesnothd.6): documented the exit status conventions
20100325 22:22:20< Soliton> ilor: if the var is not in the string map i guess it will stay as is.
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20100325 22:22:54< ilor> Soliton: I mean will $var) look for "var" or "var)" in the string map
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20100325 22:23:41< Soliton> ah, no idea. i'd imagine it'd rather go through the map and try to replace?
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20100325 22:58:32< pokhbocee> Crab_: hello
20100325 22:58:39< Crab_> hi
20100325 22:59:03< pokhbocee> i have a question about the not so easy coding for ai
20100325 22:59:11< Crab_> interesting :) ask
20100325 22:59:38< pokhbocee> for the eval method
20100325 22:59:56< pokhbocee> we need to implement heuristic
20100325 23:00:05< pokhbocee> or do you already have one
20100325 23:01:10< Crab_> no. we were thinking about using a composite eval().  eval :=  sum over all categories(avg over all heuristics in a category())
20100325 23:02:07< pokhbocee> what do u mean?
20100325 23:02:32< Crab_> if we had, say, 15 heuristics..
20100325 23:02:59< Crab_> then the simple solution of getting a single number is to take an average
20100325 23:03:24< Crab_> but, sometimes, some heuristics are just calculating almost the same in a different way
20100325 23:03:39< Crab_> so, we can either add weighting factors for them
20100325 23:03:47< pokhbocee> oh so you already have the heuristics?
20100325 23:03:54< Crab_> or we can group them by categories and firstly compute the avg over a category
20100325 23:04:20< fendrin> I have configured my irc client to set my away automatically but it doesn't seem to work, or did it? 
20100325 23:04:23< Crab_> no, we don't have 'ready' heurisitics. but some of them are present in a slightly different form
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20100325 23:05:32< pokhbocee> should i create the heuristics or just use the current ones?
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20100325 23:06:13< CIA-80> ilor * r41754 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: make the /command help, and a several /commands, use translatable strings.
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20100325 23:08:00< Crab_> pokhbocee: if you want to make a prototype for said not-so-easy-coding task, I suggest that you create your own heuristics, keeping them simple
20100325 23:08:04< ilor> Ivanovic: ^
20100325 23:08:16< CIA-80> ilor * r41755 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/lobby_main.cpp: uncomment two translateable strings in new lobby
20100325 23:08:18< Ivanovic> ilor, cool, thanks
20100325 23:08:21< pokhbocee> allright i got it
20100325 23:08:24< CIA-80> ilor * r41756 /trunk/src/multiplayer.cpp: gettextify an error message
20100325 23:08:43< Crab_> pokhbocee: you can/should reuse existing code for attack prediction, power projection calculations, etc
20100325 23:09:19< pokhbocee> how long are you going to be here?
20100325 23:09:43< Crab_> e.g. if you want to know the 'resource value' of the attack, you can take existing numbers about chance-to-kill and chance-to-be-killed, take existing unit costs, and calculate something useful from them
20100325 23:09:51< Crab_> for 1 hour, maybe for longer
20100325 23:10:09 * Crab_ is somewhat sleepy atm
20100325 23:10:51< Crab_> it would be really good to see a prototype for that task. It's not easy, however.
20100325 23:11:44< pokhbocee> i have implemented it before, but for a simple board game.
20100325 23:12:15< pokhbocee> my current problem is i need to get familiar with the code
20100325 23:12:41< Crab_> that's good. you should create a new ai stage.
20100325 23:12:50< pokhbocee> i hope
20100325 23:13:00< pokhbocee> can i have ur email?
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20100325 23:13:22< CIA-80> espreon * r41757 /trunk/data/core/ (111 files in 10 dirs): Ran umcpropfix on core.
20100325 23:13:29< Crab_> it's better to discuss things on irc, so the other developer can read them, too (I read the backlog)
20100325 23:13:38-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 23:13:42< Crab_> or you can use wesnoth-dev mailing list
20100325 23:14:01< pokhbocee> oh you are right.
20100325 23:14:32< Crab_> my email is not a secret (in fact, you can see it the game credits :) ). but it's better to use irc or public ml.
20100325 23:15:07< pokhbocee> ok ill try to be here in hour and a half i hope we will meet or if i have question i will send on mailing list or wait till u come online on irc :D
20100325 23:15:35< pokhbocee> ok gotta go. thank you for your help cu later
20100325 23:15:42< Crab_> ok. I expect that I'll be online in ~ +21h
20100325 23:17:12< pokhbocee> ok cu later then 
20100325 23:17:46< Crab_> see src/ai/testing/stage_rca.cpp
20100325 23:17:57< Crab_> (note that it's registered in src/ai/registry.cpp )
20100325 23:18:20< Crab_> it's example of 'stage' - you should make your own
20100325 23:18:26< Crab_> 'stage' is 'part of ai turn sequence'
20100325 23:18:35-!- nobody [~4e312187@gateway/web/freenode/x-znfdcrbabmarsuba] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100325 23:18:55< nobody> is there a art related IRC channel for wesnoth?
20100325 23:19:47-!- DesertPanther [~Khalid@unaffiliated/desertpanther] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20100325 23:19:49< Crab_> nobody: I heard recently, that our artists prefer the forums
20100325 23:20:03< nobody> hmm
20100325 23:20:42< nobody> on units.wesnoth.org I noticed that the shadow lord of the camp. Liberty had no shadow under it
20100325 23:20:50< fendrin> lol
20100325 23:20:55< nobody> http://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/C/Shadow%20Lord.html
20100325 23:21:14< nobody> can this get fixed until 1.8 ?
20100325 23:21:38-!- pokhbocee [~81199391@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbfjdhtnotokdrjs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20100325 23:21:54< fendrin> nobody: No, it's too late to get it in 1.8.
20100325 23:22:08< nobody> :(
20100325 23:22:17< Crab_> nobody: it will/can be included in 1.8.1, if the bug is reported via bugs.wesnoth.org
20100325 23:24:39< nobody> do I have to sign something in order to make that 'bug'report?
20100325 23:25:00< fendrin> But I wouldn't count on the art team not knowing about the issue. I guess they are aware of it but there is just not enough man power available to do it because units that have a single appearance don't have a high priority and there are plenty of art issues to fix.
20100325 23:25:24< Crab_> nobody: no, just fill out https://gna.org/bugs/?func=additem&group=wesnoth
20100325 23:25:25< fendrin> nobody: No, you can send bug reports in anonymously. 
20100325 23:25:58< nobody> ah, great, thanks =)
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20100325 23:27:30< nobody> how ironical that a shadowlord has no shadow under it XD
20100325 23:28:25< fendrin> nobody: Well, he has mastered the ways of light and darkness to that degree that he can control his own shadow. And in a combat situation it
20100325 23:28:47< fendrin> is good to don't have it around because you are harder to spot :-)
20100325 23:29:35< Blarumyrran> And it's not that rewarding to do minor improvements to a sprite that has to be replaced on first chance anyway
20100325 23:30:18< nobody> bug reported https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15698
20100325 23:30:18< nobody> bye
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20100325 23:32:47< CIA-80> espreon * r41758 /trunk/images/buttons/ (6 files): Ran umcpropfix.
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20100325 23:55:09< CIA-80> espreon * r41759 /trunk/data/ (26 files in 13 dirs): Ran umcpropfix.
--- Log closed Fri Mar 26 00:00:30 2010