--- Log opened Mon Mar 29 00:00:07 2010
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20100329 00:10:15< Upthorn> Oh, I just remembered that I Have a question
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20100329 00:12:17< Upthorn> where should I go to get into contact with the scenario development end of the community? This channel seems like it is just for the programming development end of things, but the world persistance project I'm hoping to take on for summer of code would be greatly enhanced by contact with the scenario devs
20100329 00:12:31< fendrin> Upthorn: The forum
20100329 00:13:22< fendrin> Upthorn: WML Workshop
20100329 00:13:32< Upthorn> fendrin: thanks
20100329 00:14:46< Upthorn> do you know if any interested parties hang out in #wesnoth? I don't know how fast your forums go and I'm interested in getting their perspectives as soon as possible
20100329 00:14:53< fendrin> Upthorn: But also Multiplayer Development, Scenario & Campaign Development.
20100329 00:15:09< Crab_> Upthorn: try to see if Gambit is here atm
20100329 00:15:35< fendrin> Upthorn: Our forums go fast. There are some umc devs in #wesnoth-umc-dev
20100329 00:15:44< fendrin> and in #wesnoth 
20100329 00:16:22< Upthorn> Thanks. I'll try #wesnoth-umc-dev first.
20100329 00:16:23< Crab_> yes, #wesnoth-umc-dev is probably the best place to start asking
20100329 00:16:54< Gambit> Whatup?
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20100329 00:17:11< Gambit> Crab_: I'm here.
20100329 00:17:49< Crab_> Gambit: I wanted to ask if you'll be willing to chat a bit with Upthorn about the persistent wml variables potential gsoc project.
20100329 00:17:56< Upthorn> Gambit: I wanted to talk to some content developers to see what the precise community needs are regarding http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Persistent_Gameworld
20100329 00:18:44< Gambit> For single player it's pretty straightforward. Though it'd be nice to be able to reference them by campaign.
20100329 00:18:53< Crab_> Gambit: it would be great if you could tell him something about potential cool usages of persistent wml variables, ( if you've got time, of course)
20100329 00:18:57< Gambit> For example one campaign could access another's variables.
20100329 00:19:46< Gambit> Also the SP variables should be accesable to MP
20100329 00:20:31< Gambit> Achievements and unlockables are the things that instantly come to mind as far as usage.
20100329 00:20:38< Gambit> A bit more complex would be a meta world.
20100329 00:20:50< Gambit> In which the NPCs remember how well you treated them previous plays through.
20100329 00:21:03< Gambit> Sequels that remember things in prior campaigns.
20100329 00:21:29< Gambit> One thing that I really would like to do with these is a sort of pet raising addon.
20100329 00:21:40< Gambit> You've got a singe player mode where you train/raise one particular unit.
20100329 00:21:45< Ivanovic> Soliton: could you update the port used ingame and modify the campaign download script stuff (the python script in data/tools/)?
20100329 00:21:50< Gambit> Then there is an MP scenario that can load that unit.
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20100329 00:22:06< Gambit> All the players's units.
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20100329 00:22:21< Gambit> Which is where MP would get complicated. We should be able to access each player's variables by name.
20100329 00:22:30< Upthorn> Actually, I understand the uses pretty well, I'm thinking that it'd be good to try to figure out what the best implementation would be so that content devs can jump right in with a maximum of flexibility and a minimum of learning curve
20100329 00:22:34< Gambit> As well as other multiplayer addons' variables by name.
20100329 00:23:12< Ivanovic> anyway, i am off to bed now, n8
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20100329 00:24:02< Gambit> Well for referencing them something like $ID_of_Addon.variable_name
20100329 00:24:31< Gambit> But in multiplayer $side_number.ID_of_Addon.variable_name
20100329 00:24:57< Gambit> Some extra keywords for the [set_variable] tag would be the way to go.
20100329 00:25:02< Crab_> Upthorn: I was thinking about a 'load' and 'save' functions which load a 'global persistent' variable into a local one or save a local variable to a 'global persistent' variable. for MP, some 'query' capability would be nice to have, too
20100329 00:25:17< Gambit> Addon=Current|Name_Of_Addon
20100329 00:25:25< Gambit> Player=1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
20100329 00:25:51< Upthorn> Okay.
20100329 00:26:01< Gambit> Ah nevermind on what I just said then.
20100329 00:26:19< Crab_> Gambit: well, your proposed syntax is interesting, too
20100329 00:26:52< Crab_> since it's more 'transparent' 
20100329 00:27:25< Gambit> Also for the Player= attribute that should allow a comma seperated list or a range.
20100329 00:28:17< Gambit> Upthorn: Content developers will be happy to have the feature. No worries on the learning curve.
20100329 00:28:29< Gambit> All of the people waiting for the feature would gladly read a book to have it ;)
20100329 00:29:17< Upthorn> I'm sure this is true, but it would still be better if they don't have to
20100329 00:30:56< Gambit> The one thing I worry about is people editing these.
20100329 00:31:31< Crab_> Gambit: we were thinking of using a 'central coordinator' for MP campaigns. and people can cheat in SP anyway.
20100329 00:31:50< Gambit> Central coordinator?
20100329 00:31:57< Gambit> Does that mean they're not stored locally?
20100329 00:32:10< Gambit> That is also bad. UMC creators must have access to them.
20100329 00:32:12< Upthorn> e.g.: choosing one set of persistance data to use
20100329 00:32:36< Gambit> Some sort of inspect dialog accesable from the main menu or something.
20100329 00:33:29< Crab_> Gambit: 'central coordinator' in my vision is roughly equivalent to a 'dedicated player' or 'a player with extra responsibilities'
20100329 00:34:09< Crab_> Gambit: that's mainly for meta-world MP campaigns. for SP and MP, 'local persistent variables are also to be available'.
20100329 00:34:12< shadowmaster> GAA
20100329 00:34:17< shadowmaster> gigantic commits
20100329 00:34:37< Gambit> How would we test locally?
20100329 00:35:00< Upthorn> the idea would be that the persistence data is stored locally to the players, but in a given session, one particular players' data is chosen to be used
20100329 00:35:20< Gambit> I was hoping the persistent variables feature would be independent of your Gamemaster idea.
20100329 00:35:32< Crab_> Gambit: it's independent
20100329 00:35:32< Gambit> How secure is "read-only"?
20100329 00:36:05< Crab_> Gambit: for persistent variables, you should be able to just start a normal game, and have access to 'persistent data' for all players
20100329 00:36:29< Upthorn> though my idea might be incorrect or insufficient.
20100329 00:36:40< Crab_> Gambit: with no need for GM in there, because there's no sync issues.
20100329 00:36:58< Gambit> Okay.
20100329 00:37:45< Crab_> Upthorn: 'the idea would be that the persistence data is stored locally to the players, but in a given session, one particular players' data is chosen to be used' - well, it would be better if all players can use their persistent data at the same time
20100329 00:38:06< Gambit> How do you plan to let people view the variables for debugging purposes?
20100329 00:38:11< Gambit> Just like a save file?
20100329 00:38:30< Crab_> Gambit: well, depends on format which is chosen by implementor
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20100329 00:38:50< Crab_> Gambit: in any case, there'll be a way to get a 'debug save game' with all the variables
20100329 00:39:17< Upthorn> Crab_: yeah, I was considering that, but at the very least, we need a resolution hierarchy for conflicts.
20100329 00:39:17< Crab_> Gambit: and, gamestate inspector can be extended to allow to see/query them from within wesnoth
20100329 00:39:26< Crab_> Upthorn: that's up for WML author, imo.
20100329 00:39:56< Gambit> Also with this, will you be forcing UMCs to identify themselves?
20100329 00:40:18< Gambit> I mean will a scenario be able to test which era it's being played with? And vice versa?
20100329 00:40:42< Crab_> Gambit: I think we'll need it for 'Current' references to work
20100329 00:40:43< Gambit> Both may actually have variables to be setting.
20100329 00:40:55< Gambit> Crab_: But which is current?
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20100329 00:41:01< Gambit> The era or the scenario?
20100329 00:41:11< Gambit> They both want to set $current.cheese at turn 1
20100329 00:41:27< Gambit> But to different values.
20100329 00:41:37< Crab_> Gambit: then what about  $current_era.cheese  and  $current_scenario.cheese  ?
20100329 00:41:45< Upthorn> I'm not certain what is meant by era?
20100329 00:41:59< Gambit> The default era consists of the default factions
20100329 00:42:04< Gambit> Elves knaglans drakes etc
20100329 00:42:10< Gambit> Other eras have custom units
20100329 00:42:15< Crab_> Gambit: or, $current_addon.cheese (if we use 'addons' as the domain boundaries) ?
20100329 00:42:17< Gambit> Some have their own events and what not.
20100329 00:42:24< Upthorn> oh, okay.
20100329 00:42:38< CIA-64> soliton * r41861 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): updated campaignd port
20100329 00:42:42< Upthorn> It seems to me that the scenario settings should be used when they conflict with the era settings
20100329 00:42:42< Gambit> Crab:_ That prevents the ability to pull info from other add-ons. :(
20100329 00:43:04< Upthorn> e.g.: the most specific data should have the highest priority
20100329 00:43:07< Crab_> Gambit: why ? you can always pull from other addon by name, isn't it ?
20100329 00:43:21< Gambit> Upthorn: But all eras are not just groups of units.
20100329 00:43:27< Gambit> For example take a look at GEB
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20100329 00:43:30< Crab_> Gambit: that is, $otherAddonName.cheese
20100329 00:43:35< Gambit> it adds a whole slew of features to any scenario you play it on.
20100329 00:44:12< Gambit> So sometimes the scenario will be less specific.
20100329 00:44:36< Upthorn> to use a simile, I see it as like providing the default parameters to a function
20100329 00:44:46< Gambit> Also variable storage could be coded into macros
20100329 00:44:48< Upthorn> whereas each scenario is a specific function call
20100329 00:44:49< Gambit> which are included in the era
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20100329 00:44:51< Gambit> or i nthe scenario
20100329 00:45:24< Upthorn> so when the scenario specifies what it wants to be using, it should override the era's defaults
20100329 00:46:11< Crab_> Upthorn: imo, all access should be explicit, e.g., no overrides or defaults unless specified
20100329 00:47:13< Upthorn> It is possible that I have greatly misunderstood.
20100329 00:47:24< Upthorn> Do scenarios choose which era they take place in?
20100329 00:47:28< Gambit> No.
20100329 00:47:36< Gambit> The player picks the scenario, and the era.
20100329 00:47:41< Upthorn> This is the root of my misunderstanding.
20100329 00:47:48< Gambit> Don't take era as it's actual meaning
20100329 00:47:51< Gambit> it has nothing to do with time
20100329 00:48:17< Upthorn> That explains all of the considerations you are taking.
20100329 00:48:20< Gambit> It *normally* means a collection of factions.
20100329 00:48:33< Gambit> But there are a couple of exceptions.
20100329 00:48:37< Gambit> Some eras modify the game.
20100329 00:48:51< Gambit> Not to toot my own horn again, but GEB, for example, erases all the villages on a map.
20100329 00:48:58< Gambit> And replaces other terrain.
20100329 00:49:22< Gambit> So no matter what map you play it on, GEB will make that map compatible with it.
20100329 00:49:40< Gambit> Which could disrupt the scenario if it had moveto events for certain terrain.
20100329 00:50:20< Gambit> Anyway I guess the point of that big wall of text was that neither is more powerful.
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20100329 00:50:41< Gambit> And the players *do* like to mix and match.
20100329 00:50:57< Upthorn> yeah.
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20100329 00:51:41< Crab_> (night)
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20100329 00:52:06< Gambit> I guess your original question hasn't really been answered. :\
20100329 00:52:13< Gambit> The implementation really doesn't matter.
20100329 00:52:27< Gambit> The learning curve would be kept low if it were as much like what's currently there as possible.
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20100329 00:52:52< Gambit> And UMC developers *need* to be able to see the variables.
20100329 00:53:05< Upthorn> okay.
20100329 00:53:33< Upthorn> I guess the best way to answer my question is for me to look through and see how things already work
20100329 00:53:45< fendrin> Upthorn: What I like to see is the possibility of a meta game.
20100329 00:54:15< fendrin> Upthorn: A great overview map where people met and join subscenarios but return to the overview map when done.
20100329 00:54:16< Gambit> Other people that I know are salivating over this feature and would have more to say: Ken_Oh and teaser
20100329 00:54:31< Upthorn> fendrin: yes, that is what the idea description made me think of when I read it.
20100329 00:54:46< fendrin> World of Wesnoth
20100329 00:57:49< Upthorn> so that there could be a dedicated server where players on opposing sides can take on the same maps over and over and the results of their skirmishes will determine the starting positions for the next set of players on the map
20100329 00:58:56< Gambit> Upthorn: One other way of doing a meta game is a persistent world (npcs and items and what not) with players that come and go up to a max of 9
20100329 00:59:18< Gambit> When an observer becomes a player, you should be able to access the new players persisten variables.
20100329 01:00:02< Gambit> The UMC creator would give them a "reload" right click option that replaces that last player's character with theirs.
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20100329 01:01:23< Gambit> That would be part of the Gamemaster dedicated thingermabob...
20100329 01:01:33< Upthorn> Right.
20100329 01:02:09< Gambit> But I had mentioned earlier about accessing persistent variables by played, I just wanted to make sure to request that they be reloaded every time the player changes.
20100329 01:02:39< Gambit> That's all I got. Cya.
20100329 01:03:20< Upthorn> Ok.
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20100329 01:12:31< Gambit> Also ditch the current keyword.
20100329 01:12:47< Gambit> Because like I said you can take scenarios of one addon and play them with an era from another.
20100329 01:12:54< Gambit> And players frequently choose to do so.
20100329 01:13:30< Gambit> So ignore that part of my feedback. I wasn't thinking at the time.
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20100329 01:15:46< Upthorn> I'm not sure I really understood what use you meant for the current keyword to have anyway
20100329 01:19:15< Gambit> Current would have been a pseudoname for the addon currently being played.
20100329 01:19:25< Gambit> I guess sort of like Me from visual basic.
20100329 01:19:34< Gambit> But it doesn't work because you could be playing 2 addons at the same time.
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20100329 01:39:59< Upthorn> Ah.
20100329 01:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | 74 bugs, 256 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100329 02:15:05< Aethaeryn> Gambit: visual basic?
20100329 02:15:28< Gambit> Yes. In my spare time I create gui interfaces to track IP addresses.
20100329 02:15:34< Gambit> And of course that is my language of choice :)
20100329 02:15:42< Aethaeryn> ...
20100329 02:15:52< Aethaeryn> You work for CSI?
20100329 02:15:55< Gambit> :P
20100329 02:16:09< CIA-64> shadowmaster * r41862 /branches/1.8/data/core/images/icons/shield_tower_merfolk.png: 
20100329 02:16:09< CIA-64> Corrected one offsize image in the new icon set.
20100329 02:16:09< CIA-64> (Backported from trunk, r41835 by jetryl)
20100329 02:16:49< Gambit> So what exactly is your question?
20100329 02:16:51< shadowmaster> go, cherry-pick, go
20100329 02:19:27< ancestral> Jetrel: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15724 in hindsight, probably somewhat minor
20100329 02:20:30< Aethaeryn> Gambit: Just seriously wondering your VB experience, that's all.
20100329 02:20:56< Gambit> Well I have the very beginings of a 2D rpg.
20100329 02:22:07< Gambit> but this brings us to #wesnoth
20100329 02:31:59< ancestral> Can you do plus equals and minus equals in Javascript? += and -=
20100329 02:33:19< shadowmaster> I think so. There's ##javascript, btw
20100329 02:33:46< shadowmaster> they probably know much more than this poor Perl-loving, Python-bashing bastard
20100329 02:34:07< ancestral> Well you and me both :
20100329 02:34:09< ancestral> :)
20100329 02:34:14< pokhbocee> wesbot: seen Crab_
20100329 02:34:14< wesbot> pokhbocee: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 1h 42m ago.  1h 42m ago they left with the message: Quit: Leaving.
20100329 02:36:07< ancestral> You've been trying to reach him all day, huh? :-(
20100329 02:36:53-!- endercoaster [~endercoas@adsl-99-50-160-96.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100329 02:37:07< endercoaster> Hello
20100329 02:38:09< pokhbocee> me
20100329 02:38:11< pokhbocee> ?
20100329 02:38:55< endercoaster> Just popping in to introduce myself, I'm interested in applying for GSoC with Wesnoth.
20100329 02:39:01< pokhbocee> ancestral: did you ask to me?
20100329 02:39:31< ancestral> pokhbocee: Sorry, didn't mean to poke in your business.
20100329 02:40:10< pokhbocee> :D no its okay. i was just being sure you were talkingto me or somebody else :D
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20100329 02:40:49< ancestral> Oh, I'd been on all day so I've been reading everything you'd been saying :)
20100329 02:41:18< pokhbocee> oh :D you mean yesterday right ?
20100329 02:41:38< pokhbocee> cuz i havent talk today yet. i was online but. i was afk
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20100329 02:43:51< ancestral> Perhaps it was yesterday
20100329 02:44:02< pokhbocee> yes :D
20100329 02:44:03< ancestral> I didn't sleep much so the night kinda blurred into the day ;-)
20100329 02:44:32< pokhbocee> i cannot sleep at night either and cannot wake up inthe morning i may have a problem
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20100329 02:53:59< ancestral> Oh that sucks
20100329 02:54:15< ancestral> Yeah I think both of my parents have sleep apnea
20100329 02:54:28< ancestral> My dad is always tired
20100329 02:56:45< shadowmaster> apnea? sounds familiar *looks it up*
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20100329 02:57:55< CIA-64> jetryl * r41863 /trunk/data/core/images/attacks/ (claws-fire-elemental.png fire-blast.png): Two new attack icons.
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20100329 04:21:41< CIA-64> jetryl * r41864 /trunk/data/core/ (15 files in 2 dirs): Added a woodsman idle animation.
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20100329 06:32:25< pokh> hey gabbba
20100329 06:32:29< pokh> gabba
20100329 06:32:55< gabba> hi pokh
20100329 06:33:13< pokh> are you familiar with the ai part?
20100329 06:33:31< gabba> not really, unfortunately
20100329 06:33:41< pokh> oh i see. ty anyway
20100329 06:34:18< gabba> Check the list at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeIdeas#People_to_bug_on_IRC for experts in various areas
20100329 06:34:54< gabba> at this time however the irc channel is pretty dead
20100329 06:35:53< pokh> yeah unfor.
20100329 06:36:09< pokh> i know that crab was responsible for ai. but i couldnt catch him today so.. :D
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20100329 08:28:08< pokhbocee> hey noy
20100329 08:28:23< noy> hello
20100329 08:28:37< pokhbocee> i have a question. do u have time?
20100329 08:29:25< pokhbocee> i mean if u have time, i wanna ask it.
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20100329 08:30:18< pokhbocee> ?
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20100329 08:32:07< pokhbocee> noy:  why the castles are easy to conquer? Is there any other reason than encouraging battle in all over the map?
20100329 08:32:29< noy> Sure.
20100329 08:33:18< noy> Would you like a game that only focused on sieges?
20100329 08:33:31< noy> Probably wouldn't be very fun
20100329 08:34:51< ancestral> pokhbocee: Could be an interesting campaign/mod
20100329 08:36:33< fakedrake> is sound supported for dialogs
20100329 08:36:49< Upthorn> noy: actually, I've played great games that focus only on sieges. Have you heard of Lords of the Realm 2?
20100329 08:37:18< fakedrake> i mean like in the campaign when characters speak technically is there such a feature?
20100329 08:37:24< noy> Upthorn: look you probably could and I have played games that do. However the game focuses on large scale operations
20100329 08:37:26< Upthorn> well. I guess it is not only about sieges
20100329 08:37:41< Upthorn> my point is
20100329 08:38:21< fakedrake> anywya i gotta go
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20100329 08:38:28< noy> so?
20100329 08:38:45< Upthorn> I disagree with "a game that only focused on sieges probably wouldn't be very fun".
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20100329 08:39:12< noy> using our current system it would be?
20100329 08:39:29< noy> Probably not
20100329 08:39:52< Upthorn> it would have to make several changes to the way castles work, but I think that is within the realm of what is possible to do in wml
20100329 08:40:01< Upthorn> and/or lua
20100329 08:40:29< noy> Which we wouldn't do
20100329 08:40:38< noy> and wasn't the question
20100329 08:40:44< noy> "our current system"
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20100329 08:40:54< pokhbocee> i didnt meant only focused on castles
20100329 08:41:13< pokhbocee> i feel like current game is less focused on castles.
20100329 08:41:25< noy> You're right
20100329 08:41:31< pokhbocee> little bit stronger castles can make it better imo
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20100329 08:42:03< noy> pokhbocee: I disagree. 
20100329 08:42:10< ancestral> Well to be honest, like I said the other day, it's mostly symbolic
20100329 08:42:25< ancestral> It's no different than a command center or barracks in an RTS
20100329 08:43:08< endercoaster> What I'd maybe do is rather than changing the way castles work, creating a new terrain to represent stronger castles, so that the option is there without changing all castles
20100329 08:44:17< noy> endercoaster: sure... but what would be the difference?
20100329 08:44:20< noy> Making defence 90%?
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20100329 08:44:55< pokhbocee> but only allies of castle owner should get the advantage of defense
20100329 08:45:01< noy> Its really not that realistic and it changes the essential part of the game, which is to encourage combat outside the base. 
20100329 08:45:33< endercoaster> Fair enough, just a thought
20100329 08:45:36< noy> thats a major revision in gameplay and to be honest doesn't really keep with how it works in theory
20100329 08:45:38< pokhbocee> but some random troop can get in my castle, and gain defense points in my castle against me
20100329 08:45:42< noy> err in game theory
20100329 08:45:51< ancestral> A lot of cool things come in the form of mods and user-made content
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20100329 08:46:13< ancestral> And what you're talking about could easily be done through a mod
20100329 08:46:14< noy> It might be used in UMC but it probably wouldn't be added to gameplay
20100329 08:46:56< noy> pokhbocee: is this something you were thinking for in general or as part of your gsoc proposal?
20100329 08:47:23< pokhbocee> no no its general
20100329 08:47:28< noy> right
20100329 08:47:39< pokhbocee> i always felt kinda weird about the castle
20100329 08:47:49< pokhbocee> actually now i get used to it :D
20100329 08:48:36< pokhbocee> but in my first games, castle was defense less.
20100329 08:49:06< noy> yes, but wesnoth isn't other games
20100329 08:49:08< noy> its wesnoth
20100329 08:49:21< pokhbocee> yes 
20100329 08:49:59< pokhbocee> but the reason why i ask, wasnt to make wesnoth like other games but understand why the wesnoth made in this way
20100329 08:50:30< pokhbocee> oh, and also do you think that defense advantage shouldnt given without owning the castle?
20100329 08:50:34< noy> No
20100329 08:50:43< pokhbocee> why?
20100329 08:50:53< noy> Because do they control that part of the castle?
20100329 08:50:59< noy> Who has people in that part?
20100329 08:51:02< pokhbocee> yes
20100329 08:51:07< noy> the person that owns that specific part
20100329 08:51:21< pokhbocee> oh i see so you need to make strategy to prevent them get in the castle huh?
20100329 08:51:27< noy> No...
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20100329 08:51:39< noy> Castles aren't a major part of game strategy
20100329 08:51:48< noy> its only a place to recruit
20100329 08:52:18< pokhbocee> hmm
20100329 08:52:31< endercoaster> heh... that's why I'm definitely going with one of the already proposed ideas for gsoc... because understanding the code base is easier than understanding the game design philosophy to come up with my own additions
20100329 08:52:54< noy> endercoaster: I don't think any 1st year gsoc individual should make gameplay proposals
20100329 08:53:13< noy> Unless they have a very long history with the game
20100329 08:54:03< pokhbocee> so the gameplay developed through years or decided at the beginning
20100329 08:54:07< noy> no
20100329 08:54:11< noy> err
20100329 08:54:25< noy> it was mostly decided at the beginning
20100329 08:54:28< endercoaster> Yeah, I was thinking the alliance system overhaul. Have a pretty good how to go about it, just looking through the source to see if my idea will work.
20100329 08:54:30< noy> but some of it came later
20100329 08:54:51< noy> endercoaster: zookeeper I believe has already started that. 
20100329 08:54:55< noy> or boucman
20100329 08:55:02< noy> I can't remember who exactly
20100329 08:55:07< endercoaster> boucman is the leader for that project
20100329 08:55:42< noy> yeah, but the gameplay aspects people like me have to look at. 
20100329 08:55:55< pokhbocee> endercoaster where r u from?
20100329 08:56:10< endercoaster> I'm from a suburb of Chicago, but I go to school in Iowa.
20100329 08:56:28< pokhbocee> oh i thought u were turkish :D
20100329 08:56:53< endercoaster> What gave you that impression, lol
20100329 08:57:01< pokhbocee> ender is a turkish name :D
20100329 08:57:30< endercoaster> Been using the screenname forever. At the time I first used it, I really liked roller coasters and I really liked Ender's Game
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20100329 09:00:56< pokhbocee> good night everybody
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20100329 09:26:49< zookeeper> if the alliance system is implemented, shouldn't it be in WML/lua?
20100329 09:30:43< Upthorn> the way I read the idea, it seemed like it would be a user-interface thing that players could pop up during multiplayer games
20100329 09:31:46< Upthorn> but it would probably be good to expose it to WML and lua so that user-made content can chane it in scenario and campaign events.
20100329 09:32:58< noy> its an option in the launch pane zookeeper 
20100329 09:33:28< zookeeper> to me the best idea would seem to be to write the actual system in WML(+lua if necessary) and then just implement the engine features needed to show it in the launch pane etc.
20100329 09:35:56< Upthorn> if you're going to implement a basic feature within the limitations of whatever scripting is already provided, why even boher to implement it at all, instead of just letting the community write its own?
20100329 09:39:05< zookeeper> well, it's not exactly basic and would probably end up needing some minor engine enhancements, but other than that...i don't know, i didn't make it a SoC idea :p
20100329 09:42:31< noy> zookeeper: I don't know if it is a soc idea
20100329 09:43:05< Upthorn> it is a soc idea
20100329 09:43:47< Upthorn> though "basic" wasn't exactly the right word, zookeeper is correct.
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20100329 09:46:08< zookeeper> my point is that it's already something that can be done in WML. the things that can't are the ability to make it a game setting and some other polishing details.
20100329 09:46:46< Upthorn> My personal perspective is that there is a significant performance benefit to c++ code running in the engine as compared to implementing the same feature in scripting languages, so if you expect a feature to be used by a lot of people, be called to frequently in the course of normal operations, or have tendrils in many aspects of the software, it is better to implement it in hard code than just scripting
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20100329 09:48:38< Upthorn> Without having looked into wesnoth's engine extinsively, it seems to me that the alliance system as proposed in http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_New_Alliance_System is likely to be the kind of feature that has tendrils in many oaspects of gameplay
20100329 09:49:50< zookeeper> i don't think performance would be any kind of a problem
20100329 09:50:45< zookeeper> just based on experience of complex WML features
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20100329 09:51:49< Upthorn> particularly, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_New_Alliance_System#List_of_parameters involves a decent-length list of fairly disparate elements that would have to continuously call back to the alliance settings, and so I would want to store the info in native c++ to avoid the overhead involved in getting that info from the WML/Lua each time
20100329 09:52:14< Upthorn> I suppose this could be avoided if you have a system in-place for caching loaded WML data
20100329 09:52:53< zookeeper> well, sure, that list is pretty extensive...
20100329 09:53:57< Crab__> and it would probably require coding of a Standard Side Filter, too :)
20100329 09:54:41< zookeeper> first and foremost, that list reeks of un-KISS
20100329 09:54:46< zookeeper> to me anyway
20100329 09:55:27< Upthorn> well the whole point of the new alliance system proposal is to allow for individual control of the various elements.
20100329 09:55:43< Upthorn> though it seems like a few of those could be combined.
20100329 09:55:45< zookeeper> hrhm...i guess i'll go re-read the dev list mail first
20100329 09:59:23< Upthorn> Specifically, I'd combine "can unit attack this side", "do we take village from that side", and "is this side affected by our ZOCs " into one option, and I would also combine "can this side use our healers" with "can this side use our leaders" and "can this side use our villages to teleport"
20100329 09:59:30< zookeeper> well, i can't find boucman's original mail, but..
20100329 10:00:34< Upthorn> I'm not sure what the difference between fog and shroud is, but I can definitely see use for fine-granularity in vision-sharing
20100329 10:01:32< Upthorn> e.g.: let them know where we can see but not what we see there, let them know what we can see, and "let them know what we can see and what our allies share with us."
20100329 10:01:58< zookeeper> ok, i think it's a good idea to expose all those kind of settings (maybe not exactly all of them) in scenario WML, and to have them settable in the game creation screen (under some advanced tab)
20100329 10:01:58< Crab__> Upthorn: you can see terrain under fog, you cannot see terrain under shroud.
20100329 10:02:32< Upthorn> Crab__: ah, than you.
20100329 10:02:56< Upthorn> I could definitely see the use of sharing your own vision data but not your allies' in scenarios
20100329 10:03:12< Upthorn> where you could have a side that pretends to ally with the player and leads them into an ambush
20100329 10:05:47< zookeeper> i'll try to gather my thoughts on this..
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20100329 10:07:23< zookeeper> 1) for in-game FFA diplomacy in mainline, i'm pretty sure we'd like to keep it more KISS, that is allow just joining and leaving teams and that sort of thing, not whether you can use your ally's village for teleporting but not their healers.
20100329 10:07:35< zookeeper> right?
20100329 10:09:45< Crab__> yes, we need to hide all advanced stuff or provide a few pre-selected values for such sharing
20100329 10:10:15< Crab__> e.g. "ally, friendly, neutral, unfriendly, enemy"
20100329 10:10:25< Blueblaze> unfriendly?
20100329 10:10:27< Crab__> and 'custom'
20100329 10:10:55< Crab__> Blueblaze: not in war, but share nothing, limit by ZoC, etc
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20100329 10:11:18< Blueblaze> so what is neutral?
20100329 10:11:28< mordante> servus
20100329 10:11:32< Crab__> hi, mordante
20100329 10:11:40< Blueblaze> hola mordante
20100329 10:11:42< mordante> hi Crab__ 
20100329 10:11:46< mordante> hi Blueblaze 
20100329 10:11:46< zookeeper> i have a half-baked diplomacy system implemented already, so far you can basically just send requests to join a team and the members of that team will vote on whether to accept or not.
20100329 10:12:12< Crab__> Blueblaze: something like 'share nothing, don't limit movement by ZoC'
20100329 10:12:30< zookeeper> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/YQU7VTV8
20100329 10:12:38< zookeeper> lots of now-broken text markup too ;)
20100329 10:12:50< Crab__> Blueblaze: and, maybe, no village takeover, if neutral.
20100329 10:14:16< zookeeper> (oh, and you can send private messages too)
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20100329 10:31:22< mordante> fendrin, already found how to handle duplicates?
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20100329 10:33:04< CIA-64> mordante * r41865 /trunk/src/gui/auxiliary/widget_definition.cpp: Improve an error message.
20100329 10:33:09< CIA-64> mordante * r41866 /trunk/src/text.hpp: Fix a comment typo
20100329 10:33:16< CIA-64> mordante * r41867 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/campaign_selection.cpp: Fix a comment typo.
20100329 10:33:39< CIA-64> mordante * r41868 /trunk/src/gui/auxiliary/canvas.cpp: Fix copy paste comment errors.
20100329 10:34:04< CIA-64> mordante * r41869 /trunk/src/gui/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20100329 10:34:04< CIA-64> Implement text alignment inside a canvas.
20100329 10:34:04< CIA-64> The old way was to let the widget do the alignment, but I foresee some
20100329 10:34:04< CIA-64> problems with that regarding rtl languages so started to improve the
20100329 10:34:04< CIA-64> code.
20100329 10:34:28< CIA-64> mordante * r41870 /trunk/src/gui/ (4 files in 2 dirs): 
20100329 10:34:28< CIA-64> Implement text alignment inside a widget.
20100329 10:34:28< CIA-64> Only added the feature for the label at the moment, if more widgets need
20100329 10:34:28< CIA-64> it it would be better to add the tag to the generic tags.
20100329 10:34:58< CIA-64> mordante * r41871 /trunk/data/gui/default/widget/label_alignment.cfg: Added a label class using the alignment flag.
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20100329 10:40:54< Ivanovic> moin
20100329 10:41:08< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20100329 10:41:16< fendrin> mordante: yes I have :-)
20100329 10:41:25< mordante> ok good
20100329 10:42:16< fendrin> Crab__: Please merge only the fendrin_pathfind branch. I have found another big bug in the other branch and won't have time during the next 2 weeks to fix it.
20100329 10:42:31< fendrin> I am off now.
20100329 10:42:41< mordante> bye fendrin 
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20100329 10:45:13< stikonas> Ivanovic: hi, would it be OK if we always use utf8 collation in Wesnoth on Linux? I've tried changeing it in src/language.cpp and sorting works much better
20100329 10:45:48< Ivanovic> stikonas: but what about other platforms like eg windows?
20100329 10:46:20< stikonas> I think that other platforms use #ifdef code, but I can talk to silene later, I think that the code is his
20100329 10:47:40< stikonas> src/language.cpp:163 tries to set UTF8 locale but it doesn't do it correctly
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20100329 10:48:45< mordante> in what way?
20100329 10:49:54< stikonas> mordante: at least on my machine it doesn't work because of the - sign in .utf-8 .utf8 works
20100329 10:50:57< CIA-64> mordante * r41872 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
20100329 10:50:57< CIA-64> Improve the tips of day in new title screen.
20100329 10:50:57< CIA-64> The dialog no longer needs a resize after pressing the next or previous
20100329 10:50:57< CIA-64> tip button.
20100329 10:53:12< CIA-64> mordante * r41873 /trunk/changelog: Update and polish changelog
20100329 10:53:58< mordante> stikonas, I can add the test-case for .utf8
20100329 10:54:12< stikonas> mordante: let me test it one more time
20100329 10:56:26< mordante> stikonas, if it doesn't work can you test this patch http://paste.debian.net/66400/
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20100329 11:00:02< stikonas> mordante: this patch would work, since .utf8 is the last entry but otherwise it doesn't work
20100329 11:00:58< stikonas> i think that all previous locales get overridden by the last one
20100329 11:02:16< mordante> no it should stop once one of the locales tested works
20100329 11:02:52< stikonas> yeah, I see goto statement
20100329 11:05:02< stikonas> mordante: I've now tested your patch, and it doesn't fix sorting
20100329 11:05:23< stikonas> it picks up non UTF8 locale on "" option and stops
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20100329 11:06:17< stikonas> mordante: maybe you can move "" to the last position
20100329 11:06:56< mordante> feel free to try it if it works I can modify the patch
20100329 11:07:15< stikonas> mordante: this seems to work: char const *encoding[] = { ".utf-8", ".UTF-8", ""};
20100329 11:07:45< stikonas> simply moving "" to the last position does the job
20100329 11:08:04< stikonas> and nothing else is necessary
20100329 11:09:20< gabba> hi
20100329 11:09:42< stikonas> mordante: http://paste.debian.net/66405/
20100329 11:09:45< mordante> hi gabba 
20100329 11:09:51< gabba> hi mordante
20100329 11:10:59< Crab__> hi, gabba
20100329 11:11:19< gabba> hey Crab__
20100329 11:11:39< gabba> Your underscore got longer since yesterday :P
20100329 11:12:00< stikonas> mordante: will you commit this patch?
20100329 11:12:06< mordante> stikonas, ok I'll commit the fix to trunk and back port it if nobody gets regressions
20100329 11:12:16< mordante> stikonas, I always type too slow ;-P
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20100329 11:20:03< CIA-64> mordante * r41874 /trunk/ (changelog src/language.cpp): 
20100329 11:20:03< CIA-64> Fixed picking the proper locale.
20100329 11:20:03< CIA-64> Patch provided by stikonas.
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20100329 11:22:58< stikonas> ok, it works now, but non UTF-8 collation in glibc is totally and absolutely borked
20100329 11:23:08< stikonas> and not just in wesnoth
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20100329 11:23:45< mordante> but that's a glibc problem if I understand correctly ?
20100329 11:24:06< stikonas> yeah
20100329 11:24:20< stikonas> I've written small c++ program as a testcase
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20100329 11:24:34< stikonas> and it doesn't work correctly with non-UTF-8 locales
20100329 11:24:58< stikonas> and it fails with no appearent reason on at least 2 languages
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20100329 12:39:25< freim> check it out, Wesnoth trees (and some other stuff) in freeciv :) http://feathers.os-tr.net/~hogne/amplio2_2.png
20100329 12:39:44< freim> I'm working on an update to the Freeciv Amplio tileset
20100329 12:40:14< freim> </shameless plug>
20100329 12:43:58< Crab_> nice
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20100329 12:51:19< mordante> nice indeed
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20100329 12:53:15< zookeeper> yeah, looks nice. too bad it's still freeciv :P
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20100329 12:57:27< Ivanovic> freim: wow, there are some non wesnoth graphics left!
20100329 12:57:49< Ivanovic> (those that don't look as great as the rest, mainly the icons like the pepper)
20100329 12:58:19< freim> some of the special icons are still the old ones
20100329 12:58:31< Ivanovic> when will the animated water be used?
20100329 12:58:32< Ivanovic> ;)
20100329 12:58:54< freim> don't think freeciv supports animated terrain unfortunately
20100329 12:59:21< freim> freeciv hardly have any developers left, it's to bad
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20100329 13:03:32< Ivanovic> :(
20100329 13:06:33< loonycyborg> freim: Are there any other open source civ clones?
20100329 13:10:19< freim> loonycyborg: some, but it's been a long time since I've looked at any of them
20100329 13:12:36< zookeeper> c-evo seems to have a sensible approach, but i've never tried it nor know if it's going anywhere atm
20100329 13:13:51< freim> yeah, thats the only other one that is somewhat feature complete that I know of
20100329 13:14:05< freim> as in matching civ2 features at least
20100329 13:22:46< zookeeper> one would think strategy games would be what open source works well for since there's relatively little artwork required (as compared to most other kinds of games), all of it can be in 2D, not much writing and sounds needed either, etc.
20100329 13:23:45< grzybacz> freim: it's not really a civ clone, but have you tried free orion?
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20100329 13:25:04< freim> grzybacz: know of it, haven't played it yet as it doesn't have all the core parts ready yet
20100329 13:28:14< shadowmaster> huh.
20100329 13:28:24< shadowmaster> I could swear I had something to say or do here.
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20100329 13:36:15< grzybacz> freim: how about FreeCol? :)
20100329 13:37:14< freim> grzybacz: played that a bit, not to bad
20100329 13:38:02< grzybacz> freim: yup, I find it quite enjoyable too. The graphics could use some love though.
20100329 13:38:26< freim> yeah
20100329 13:40:00< grzybacz> ... and it's still being developed. :)
20100329 13:41:17< stikonas> mordante: I've found more sorting inconsistencies in the in-game help and tried to fix them but ran into some c++ trouble. Can you help me? This works: http://paste.debian.net/66437/ but this doesn't http://paste.debian.net/66438/
20100329 13:42:12< stikonas> and my knowledge of c++ is not good enough to tell why the second patch fails :(
20100329 13:43:50< shadowmaster> how does it fail?
20100329 13:43:57< stikonas> it doesn't even compile
20100329 13:44:07< shadowmaster> yeah, exactly, how?
20100329 13:44:47< stikonas> shadowmaster: http://paste.debian.net/66439/
20100329 13:45:29< stikonas> ignore the lines afted the second, the error is in the first 2 lines
20100329 13:45:44< shadowmaster> I know
20100329 13:48:07 * shadowmaster scratches head
20100329 13:48:24< Crab_> stikonas: see the line it tells you about
20100329 13:48:34< Crab_> stikonas: that is, help.cpp:1223
20100329 13:49:18< shadowmaster> the functor looks sane to me
20100329 13:49:19< Crab_> I don't have 'your version' of sources, but I suspect that you need to change std::set<std::string> to std::set<std::string, string_less>  there.
20100329 13:49:24< stikonas> Crab: thanks
20100329 13:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | 73 bugs, 256 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100329 13:51:29< Crab_> stikonas: it even tries to tell you just that in the error message - that it cannot initialize a "std::set<std::string,std::less>&"   from   " std::set<std::string, string_less>"
20100329 13:52:27< shadowmaster> hah. I missed the "from expression of type" part since the error message is too long and there's no line wrapping in that paste
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20100329 13:52:49< shadowmaster> *pastebin
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20100329 14:30:57< stikonas> I've now submitted my patch to https://gna.org/patch/?1567
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20100329 15:52:30< timotei21> hello everyone
20100329 15:53:14< Crab_> hi, timotei21
20100329 16:01:16-!- Iskander [kvirc@91.205.83.55] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100329 16:01:33< Iskander> Hi all
20100329 16:04:00< timotei21> hello Iskander 
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20100329 16:13:34< Iskander> Can you explaine me how variables are analisys variables in "message" tag 
20100329 16:14:44< Iskander> I mean "message" tag get string with value of variables, or with name of variables?
20100329 16:16:48< zookeeper> if the wiki doesn't say something takes the name of a variable, then it doesn't
20100329 16:16:56< zookeeper> and there's nothing to that effect said about [message]
20100329 16:17:09< Gambit> message="Hello $name"
20100329 16:20:06< Iskander> Thank you
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20100329 17:38:38< silene> hi
20100329 17:38:53< timotei21> hello silene 
20100329 17:43:49< silene> stikonas, mordante: the patch is fine (but my intuition tells me that it just papers over a bug in the glibc)
20100329 17:44:30< stikonas> silene: yes, I agree, but probably it is the best workaround
20100329 17:44:39< silene> (or the distribution, whichever is responsible for the locale files)
20100329 17:44:56< stikonas> silene: this was reproducible on different distributions
20100329 17:45:25< stikonas> something is really broken with non UTF-8 glibc collation 
20100329 17:46:09< stikonas> silene: maybe you can also look at https://gna.org/patch/?1567
20100329 17:50:21< silene> stikonas: looks fine (note that you have space-based indentation in string_less); do you have commit rights or do you need me to commit it?
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20100329 17:57:45< stikonas> silene: I do not have commit rights
20100329 17:57:56< silene> i will apply it then
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20100329 18:06:49< stikonas> silene: If you have some more time, I have a patch that replaces a string with pluralised string: http://stikonas.homelinux.org/files/plural.diff
20100329 18:08:57< silene> stikonas: looks good, but i'm wondering if some translators wouldn't prefer the number to be part of the string so that "move" can be moved around (no idea if a language needs it)
20100329 18:11:20< stikonas> silene: good idea, should it be "%1 move", "%1 moves", etc... or "%i move"
20100329 18:12:07< silene> "%s move" actually, since we are manually putting the sign back
20100329 18:12:30< stikonas> I was just thinking about this + sign  now
20100329 18:12:47 * stikonas was too slow :)
20100329 18:14:04< silene> by the way, %1 doesn't exist, so it would have been %d in both cases
20100329 18:14:42< shadowmaster> %1%?
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20100329 18:15:29< stikonas> I think KDE somehow uses %1, but they probably add some hacks to kdelibs
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20100329 18:15:57< shadowmaster> Boost.format at least implement some kind of positional parameters
20100329 18:16:25< shadowmaster> I don't remember if that's an idea of their own or something taken from standard printf or from somewhere else
20100329 18:16:48< fabi_> Hello AI0867  crab is going to merge the pathfinding branch today.
20100329 18:17:35< silene> shadowmaster: printf also has positional parameters, but this is C nonetheless, so you need explicit typing: %1$d
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20100329 18:17:52< shadowmaster> right
20100329 18:19:08< stikonas> strings in wesnoth are usually simple enough to not require positional parameters
20100329 18:19:24< Soliton> QString::arg() uses %1, %2 etc which KDE is probably using.
20100329 18:20:21< CIA-64> silene * r41875 /trunk/src/help.cpp: Fixed collating in some help sections. (Patch #1567 by stikonas.)
20100329 18:20:55< silene> stikonas: technically, original strings should never need positional parameters, but it's damn useful for translated strings
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20100329 18:21:18< silene> (since you don't have control over the source code as a translator)
20100329 18:21:58< timotei21> btw, who are the mentors for GSOC this year?
20100329 18:21:58< timotei21> :)
20100329 18:22:12< stikonas> yeah, I was talking about these translated strings. But I hardly remember the string in wesnoth with 2 parameters
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20100329 18:24:54< silene> stikonas: i don't think there are any multiarg C string in wesnoth; but there are a lots of WML ones
20100329 18:25:24< stikonas> the larger problem is that WML doesn't support plural strings at all
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20100329 18:29:41< silene> stikonas: it's kind of impossible by design, unfortunately; all the forms would have to be stored in a single string; taking your "move" case as an example, the corresponding WML string would have to look like "N^$value|$value move|$value moves"
20100329 18:30:22< silene> and i shouldn't have choosen "|" as a separator above, since it is already an active WML character...
20100329 18:30:56< silene> so "N^$value\\$value move\\$value moves"
20100329 18:31:25< stikonas> by the way, there is a typo in comment src/campaign_server/campaign_server.cpp:311 (allready->already)
20100329 18:32:13< stikonas> silene: wouldn't such system work: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?11811
20100329 18:33:20< stikonas> with: message = _"I have $count unit"  message_plural = _"I have $count units"   plural_var = $count
20100329 18:33:25< silene> stikonas: it's exactly proposal 2 (modulo the syntax)
20100329 18:33:56< silene> stikonas: proposal 1 is not really good, since it is quite restrictive in where it allows plural
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20100329 18:38:56< silene> to clarify why i prefer proposal 2, it's that the greatest strength of current wml is that just everything is translatable; going to proposal 1 would be a step backward
20100329 18:39:49< silene> (and i'm not saying that just because i added internationalization to wesnoth)
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20100329 18:44:08< silene> stikonas: i was mistaken, your patch to unit is completely wrong, sorry; plurals just can't be used with the current implementation of tstring (and that's related to the fact that wml doesn't support plurals)
20100329 18:44:28< stikonas> an, ok
20100329 18:44:41< stikonas> s/an/oh/
20100329 18:44:56< timotei21> tstring is a translatable string?
20100329 18:45:01< silene> just to explain: tstring(something
20100329 18:45:04< silene> argl
20100329 18:45:30< silene> tstring(something, domain) is a yet to be translated string, so you can't put an already translated thing into "something"
20100329 18:45:38< silene> timotei21: yes
20100329 18:45:46< timotei21> ok
20100329 18:45:57 * stikonas wonders why it worked
20100329 18:47:17< silene> stikonas: it worked because the game was looking for a translation of "mouvement" (french translation) and it didn't find one, so it left it as is; but if you had changed language, you would be stuck with the french translation
20100329 18:48:53< silene> does that make sense?
20100329 18:48:55< stikonas> indeed, I haven't switched languages while I was testing this patch
20100329 18:51:19< silene> now, perhaps this particular string is an automatically generated one (e.g. after each load) and then the use of tstring is superfluous and it will always work, even when changing language, since you can't change language on the fly
20100329 18:52:15< silene> (note that unability to change language on the fly is just a user interface restriction, it actually works)
20100329 18:52:36< stikonas> IIRC this string appears on the right panel
20100329 18:53:24< silene> i know; what i don't remember is if it stored in savefiles or if it is created when loading them
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20100329 19:07:25< timotei21> silene, are you here?
20100329 19:08:28< silene> i am
20100329 19:09:09< timotei21> I have again some questions regarding GSOC :))
20100329 19:09:28< timotei21> today in aprox. 1 hour will open the student's applications period
20100329 19:09:59< timotei21> will you take the proposals on a first-come first-good-accepted? or wait until 9april, and then select the students?
20100329 19:11:01< endercoaster> And if the latter, will an earlier submitted proposal count in your favor?
20100329 19:11:15< silene> i don't intend to involve myself with gsoc, so i'm not the one to ask
20100329 19:11:35< timotei21> well, the 2nd question: who are the mentors?:)
20100329 19:11:50< silene> no idea, it's most certainly written somewhere on the wiki
20100329 19:12:00< endercoaster> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_People_to_bug_on_IRC
20100329 19:12:46< timotei21> yeah, that people to bug on irc, not the mentors :D
20100329 19:12:56< timotei21> well, it seems I have to wait for Ivanovic to be online:P
20100329 19:14:14< silene> hmm... this page is quite outdated; several people mentioned there have not been seen for several months
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20100329 19:31:01< pokhbocee> hello happygrue_
20100329 19:31:57< boucman> hey all
20100329 19:32:03< pokhbocee> hey
20100329 19:33:19< timotei21> hello boucman
20100329 19:34:48< happygrue_> pokhbocee: hello
20100329 19:35:06< timotei21> boucman, you know anything about GSOC mentors?
20100329 19:35:17< boucman> being one of them, yes I do :P
20100329 19:36:06< timotei21> well, as I've asked before (and endercoaster too)
20100329 19:36:12< timotei21> today in aprox. 1 hour will open the student's applications period
20100329 19:36:18< timotei21> will you take the proposals on a first-come first-good-accepted basis? or wait until 9april, and then select the students?
20100329 19:36:23< timotei21> endercoaster> And if the latter, will an earlier submitted proposal count in your favor?
20100329 19:36:34< timotei21> this was the first one
20100329 19:39:05-!- Crab___ [~Miranda@lanetskaya2.mik.net.ua] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100329 19:40:04< boucman> timotei21: we will wait until the end
20100329 19:40:31< boucman> and submitting early won't make much of a difference
20100329 19:42:37< timotei21> and 2nd: who will be mentors this year?
20100329 19:43:45< pokhbocee> happygrue_: do you have time for few questions
20100329 19:43:54< boucman> me, Crab___, mordante
20100329 19:43:57< pokhbocee> oh crab is here too
20100329 19:44:06< pokhbocee> ok ill ask to everybody :D
20100329 19:44:10< happygrue_> pokhbocee: crab is better in every way to ask ;)
20100329 19:44:23< pokhbocee> if you say so :D
20100329 19:44:33< happygrue_> I am only good to fetch coffee, or if no one else is around ;)
20100329 19:44:53< timotei21> ok, thanks boucman
20100329 19:45:12< pokhbocee> :D ahah dont be modest
20100329 19:45:42< pokhbocee> first what is the difference between default ai and rca ai
20100329 19:46:11< happygrue_> timotei21: people who spend time in this channel, and perhaps work on some easy coding (http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding) or demonstrate their skill are regarded better in the selection process
20100329 19:46:27< boucman> pokhbocee: in 1.6, default ai is c++ based
20100329 19:47:02< boucman> rca is based on formula ai, it's a structure that allows much more customizing... though there is little customizing in 1.6 and both were equvalent
20100329 19:47:11< Crab___> pokhbocee: 'ai_default', or 'default ai', or 'old default ai', is the codename of the old ai
20100329 19:47:21< boucman> IIRC in 1.8 the rca is now the default, but Crab___ will know better than me
20100329 19:47:43< Crab___> pokhbocee: 'rca' is 'candidate action evaluation loop', an algorithm for playing the turn which was originally developed for formula ai but is now independent from formula ai
20100329 19:47:54< Crab___> pokhbocee: 'rca ai' is the ai which is based around that loop
20100329 19:48:07< pokhbocee> oh ok
20100329 19:48:13< Crab___> pokhbocee: that look consists of a number of candidate actions, which can be written in c++, formula ai, and lua
20100329 19:49:03< Crab___> pokhbocee: if you haven't yet, read http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8
20100329 19:49:29< pokhbocee> i have read
20100329 19:49:48< pokhbocee> but im not sure i get it all :D
20100329 19:49:48< Crab___> that's good.
20100329 19:49:53< Crab___> :)
20100329 19:50:04< pokhbocee> ok real question.
20100329 19:50:09< Crab___> yes, some things might be unclear there, since that doc is a WI
20100329 19:50:14< Crab___> s/WI/WIP
20100329 19:50:28< pokhbocee> what is the current status in lua? cuz i couldnt find any implemented methods
20100329 19:50:37< pokhbocee>  except the ones in helper and few more in other files
20100329 19:50:46< pokhbocee> do we have a lua ai library?
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20100329 19:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.8.0 tagged, announcing on April 1st | 74 bugs, 256 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100329 19:51:57< Crab___> pokhbocee: no, we have a placeholder lib, we're able to do attacks/moves/recalls/recruits/stops, and we're able to use all the non-ai lua support things which were coded for LuaWML by silene
20100329 19:52:25< pokhbocee> by using register_wml_action ?
20100329 19:53:09< Crab___> well, we can fire WML events from within the ai. but it's easier to use lua helpers directly from lua ai code
20100329 19:54:18< pokhbocee> i was trying to implement something yesterday. i couldnt figure out which ones are already implemented and dont know how to use object.(which variables do they have, how to access those etc.)
20100329 19:54:22< Crab___> and the 'current status is' :we can have lua stages, lua candidate actions, we can execute actions from within the ai, we can use general lua code which is already done, which covers a large part of our needs.
20100329 19:54:35< silene> pokhbocee: wml events/actions really shouldn't be used (unless they can be reverted to a clean state before returning) as it wouldn't carry well over network/replay
20100329 19:56:20< pokhbocee> Crab___: do we have a api or smth. to see how to access, and what do they contain etc.?
20100329 19:56:55< pokhbocee> silene: i couldnt understand what u are trying to say.
20100329 19:57:54< Crab___> pokhbocee: yes, see example lua ai scenario ( data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg ) for some example usage. an see the ai-related code in src/scripting/lua.cpp for the implementation.
20100329 19:58:42< Crab___> pokhbocee: and sorry, I have to go offline now. will be avalable in +12h.
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20100329 19:58:50< pokhbocee> ok
20100329 19:58:59< Crab___> pokhbocee: if you write any questions, I'll answer them, when I'll read the log
20100329 19:59:00< silene> pokhbocee: there are two places where you can use lua: scenario wml and AI; both domains provide their methods, and using methods from wml for ai (or the contrary) is bound to cause bugs
20100329 19:59:15< pokhbocee> Crab___: ok i will do it like that
20100329 19:59:44< silene> for instance, register_wml_action is for scenario wml; there is absolutely no reason for using it in ai
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20100329 20:01:38< pokhbocee> so lua is not used only for ai
20100329 20:02:04< pokhbocee> no no i still dont get it
20100329 20:02:25< silene> right, lua is used for two things
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20100329 20:03:10< pokhbocee> in data/lua/wml-tags.lua it seems to be it matches the lua functions with wmk functions
20100329 20:03:13< pokhbocee> i guess
20100329 20:03:54< silene> wml-tags.lua creates new wml tags that can be used in scenario events
20100329 20:04:26< pokhbocee> ohh i see
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20100329 20:05:24< pokhbocee> so what is the scenario wml. and why cannot we us this method for the ai. we use the ai through wml right?
20100329 20:07:42< silene> scenario wml is everything used to design a scenario; open any .cfg in data/campaigns/.../scenarios and you will see example of it; the ai is not used through wml, they are completely orthogonal (though a scenario designer can control ai from wml, for instance explaining what the objective of the scenario is)
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20100329 20:08:20< pokhbocee> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Customizing_AI_in_Wesnoth_1.8
20100329 20:08:24< pokhbocee> what about here.
20100329 20:08:40< endercoaster> Boucman: Silly question, but what type of information should we put in the "small introduction to yourself" on the questionaire?
20100329 20:08:42< pokhbocee> here its done through wml. or am i mistaken?
20100329 20:09:37< pokhbocee> endercoaster: look at the other peoples pages. but actually it depends on you everybody done it in his/her own way
20100329 20:12:24< silene> pokhbocee: wml is two things: it is a markup language (think xml) and it is a command language (think xslt); everything in wesnoth is written in wml and so is that page; but none of the tags there are command tags, they are just describing the ai
20100329 20:13:24< pokhbocee> oh ok. so its like a interface between user and source
20100329 20:13:31< pokhbocee> i mean developer by user
20100329 20:13:37< pokhbocee> by saying user
20100329 20:13:52< silene> between developer and engine, yes
20100329 20:14:32< pokhbocee> ok.
20100329 20:15:13< pokhbocee> so i should write in wml right? or lua?
20100329 20:15:30< pokhbocee> oh im so confused
20100329 20:16:01< pokhbocee> oh i see i write them in lua
20100329 20:17:10< silene> you write the ai in lua, and then you embed the lua code in wml, since that's the only thing wesnoth can parse
20100329 20:17:30< pokhbocee> to embed it u use register_wml_action
20100329 20:17:35< pokhbocee> is that right?
20100329 20:19:08< silene> no, register_wml_action is a completely different thing, don't look at wml-tags.lua; the file you have to look at is data/ai/scenarios/scenario-lua-ai.cfg
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20100329 20:19:56< boucman> endercoaster: whatever you feel, basicaly who you are, what you studied...
20100329 20:21:59< pokhbocee> i was working on wrong files :D 
20100329 20:22:02< pokhbocee> damn it
20100329 20:23:23< pokhbocee> crab said most of the necessary parts are implemented but i only see few in the file you and crab said.
20100329 20:23:35< pokhbocee> and those implemented methods seem to be stub methods
20100329 20:25:09< boucman> gabba: i'll review your proposal now if that's fine with you...
20100329 20:25:30< gabba> boucman: ok, if you prefer that
20100329 20:26:41< silene> pokhbocee: what is implemented is the interface to the engine, that is, move/attack/recruit; due to the stage-based design, all the existing C++ ai is also available; i don't think anything else is needed to modify the ai (but you would have to ask Crab_ about that); it isn't a matter of stub or not
20100329 20:26:51< mordante> silene, I also think the patch papers over a bug, therefore I didn't directly backport it
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20100329 20:27:31< silene> mordante: as long as it doesn't paper over a wesnoth bug, it's worth backporting
20100329 20:32:58< boucman> gabba: your measure of functor use is unfortunately incorrect...
20100329 20:33:19< boucman> functors are also heavily used by the engine itself for fades, recoloring, flipping etc...
20100329 20:33:41< boucman> it should be mainly in unit_frame.cpp
20100329 20:34:16< mordante> silene, want to make sure it has no regressions on other platforms, not sure whether the order was picked deliberately or not
20100329 20:35:11< silene> mordante: the order was just a matter of efficiency; no need to try two nonexisting locales before noticing that the default one works just fine
20100329 20:35:41< mordante> ok then I'll backport it later
20100329 20:35:49< gabba> boucman: after writing that and examining the source code a bit more, I kind of realized that, yes
20100329 20:35:55< boucman> gabba: the tool you want to use is bsd licensed, you should check with Ivanovic if that's fine...
20100329 20:36:25< boucman> ok, i'm just typing my thoughts as they come, you have plenty of time to adjust your proposal anyway
20100329 20:36:25< silene> if it has a 4-clause bsd license, it isn't fine
20100329 20:36:30< gabba> boucman: bsd is more liberal than gpl and we can always relicense
20100329 20:36:43< gabba> boucman: afaik
20100329 20:37:18< boucman> if we don't modify it, then it's just a package-time dependency...
20100329 20:37:31< gabba> sure
20100329 20:37:59< boucman> gabba: in which case you submit your changes back to them instead of us, but that is not a problem, so to speak :)
20100329 20:38:21< gabba> right, as long as we can use it
20100329 20:38:41< boucman> (I don't want to have a local fork of another tool, if you completely rewrite, it's another matter, but i don't think it's a good idea if we can avoid it)
20100329 20:39:30< gabba> ok, if I end up doing that I'll try to make the command line useful for them, too.... we'll see what's possible there
20100329 20:40:00< boucman> gabba: contacting them would be a good idea to "feel the water" of their community
20100329 20:40:10< gabba> otherwise I'll just borrow the algorithm, which is the most interesting part and can't really be licensed
20100329 20:41:28< boucman> gabba: if you try to not fork their tool, you'd be better doing an external tool converting their XML to WML, rather than integrating WML in their tool
20100329 20:42:00< boucman> (and doing it in python would be a plus ;) )
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20100329 20:44:11< boucman> gabba: i don't believe your 5.2 idea is the way to go...
20100329 20:44:25< boucman> you assume that an animation is a set of image, which is very rarely true
20100329 20:44:27< gabba> boucman: not that easy, since I'd have to do WML --> XML -->XML --> WML, and the structure is rather different, but I can consider it
20100329 20:44:45< boucman> the typical sequence of image of an attack anim is 1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1 typically
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20100329 20:45:18< boucman> gabba: yes, please consider it... being a good open source citizen and all :)
20100329 20:45:38< gabba> :)
20100329 20:47:15< gabba> For 5.2, it could take several forms: you could also use [frame_group] to define the frames, and then reference them later in the file instead of direct image references
20100329 20:47:55< gabba> I'm not really assuming a lot here, since it's an optional idea anyways, that can be developed if there's time
20100329 20:48:22< gabba> But if you think developing it further could improve the proposal, I can do more research
20100329 20:51:22< gabba> boucman: the "fades, recoloring, flipping" being heavily used is what annoys me the most though
20100329 20:51:24< boucman> gabba: at this point, i don't really see the need for it, even if you have the time, so I think you should focus on other parts
20100329 20:52:33< boucman> would it be better if I used the display classes primitives instead of the functors, or would it result in the same problem at low level ?
20100329 20:54:54< gabba> Um, not sure I'm following you here
20100329 20:54:59< pokhbocee> thank you alot silene
20100329 20:55:28< boucman> gabba: I know that at some place I actually do the modifications by adding the functor at the end of the filename string
20100329 20:55:47< gabba> ah, you mean in the code itself?
20100329 20:55:48< pokhbocee> i think only eval and execute are stub. but they r not that easy. ill try to find smth easier. if i cannot ill start with them.
20100329 20:56:01< boucman> but at other places (flipping IIRC) I call the primitives directly, so I'm not sure what the resulting cache usage is...
20100329 20:56:21< boucman> gabba: the best way to test might be to add some well thought printfs at the cache level
20100329 20:56:46< mordante> I'm off night
20100329 20:56:55< pokhbocee> g. night
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20100329 20:57:22< gabba> well, for my purpose as long as the ~CROP functor works as I want, sprite sheets will at least provide the disk space benefits and *some* memory benefits
20100329 20:57:36< boucman> indeed
20100329 20:57:43< silene> can we stop calling them functors? functors take types/modules/functions and return types/modules/functions; these things take images/objects and return images/objects; in other words, they are plain functions
20100329 20:58:22< gabba> The thing is, if almost every image gets modified afterwards, why bother?
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20100329 20:58:45< gabba> (Silene: I'm trying to stop, but it's addictive :P)
20100329 20:59:46< boucman> gabba: remember that originally the point of the cache was to avoid filesystem access, that benefit is still there if we only cache the raw image and modify eery time
20100329 21:00:08< boucman> raw image + modif vs keeping the modified image is a memory vs cpu balance issue
20100329 21:00:41< CIA-64> silene * r41876 /trunk/src/ (unit_map.cpp unit_map.hpp): 
20100329 21:00:41< CIA-64> Simplified structure unit_map::node away.
20100329 21:00:41< CIA-64> Removed duplication of data in unit_map::iterator_counter.
20100329 21:00:41< CIA-64> Factored and simplified code.
20100329 21:00:41< CIA-64> Fixed and improved comments.
20100329 21:00:56< gabba> boucman: right, the cache benefit stays
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20100329 21:01:18< gabba> boucman: but I'm under the impression that with zoom, every image gets scaled?
20100329 21:01:39< boucman> hmm, i'm not sure how zoom works...
20100329 21:02:08< gabba> wesnoth has zoom right? I don't think I ever use it when playing
20100329 21:02:23< boucman> it does, ctrl-+ IIRC
20100329 21:02:31< gabba> ok
20100329 21:03:12< gabba> well I saw a scaled image cache in the source code, so assuming every single image gets scaled, then I could cache whole scaled spritesheets
20100329 21:03:43< gabba> however for things like flips and fades, I imagine flipping or fading the whole sprite sheet would be a total waste of memory
20100329 21:03:48< Shuger> do i need to answer every gsoc questionaire question on by one, or can one more general description in some sections?
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20100329 21:04:04< boucman> gabba: indeed, 
20100329 21:04:15< boucman> and I imagine that flipping is not very costy cpu wise
20100329 21:04:30< boucman> gabba: you should consider per-unit spritesheets in your proposal
20100329 21:04:53< boucman> when a unit is unused, all of its frames are unused, and when a unit is used, all its frames usually are
20100329 21:05:20< boucman> moreover some units are in multiple factions
20100329 21:05:31< boucman> it gets tricky with recoloring
20100329 21:05:44< silene> boucman: flipping is about as costly as the other functions, except for scale which is much costly
20100329 21:05:52< boucman> ok
20100329 21:07:11< gabba> boucman: per-units sprite sheets are already considered, as well as per-faction, per-campaign, per-anything-you-want basically
20100329 21:07:56< gabba> since the list of what goes in each set of spritesheets is configurable, I think this kind of decision is best left to when we actually have an implementation to compare relative benefits
20100329 21:08:10< boucman> hmm, the thing is some image transformations make sense to cache (recoloring because of time of day, flipping) others don't (recoloring because of level-up, transparency at death animation time...)
20100329 21:08:41< gabba> I imagine they all get cached right now?
20100329 21:08:45< boucman> gabba: agreed, I mentionned it because iirc per-unit wasn't mentionned in your proposal 
20100329 21:09:13< boucman> gabba: i think so, but i'm not sure... I think there is a way to tell the image engine "give me this image::locator but don't cache it"
20100329 21:09:20< gabba> ok, I'll mention it -- good reminder that it's something to test
20100329 21:09:29< boucman> not sure if it will look for a pre-transformed image in cache though...
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20100329 21:10:58< gabba> well, I'm not looking to rewrite the whole cache, but I think fixing ~CROP and caching whole transformed sprite sheets when it makes sense would be a good goal
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20100329 21:11:45< boucman> gabba: rewriting the cache would be a nice sideeffect of a spriteshhet GSoC if it happened :)
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20100329 21:11:49< pokhbocee> cu later everybody
20100329 21:11:56-!- pokhbocee [~ebo@ws40.cs.drexel.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20100329 21:12:07< gabba> boucman: haha, funny :)
20100329 21:12:37< gabba> boucman: it would be nice except for the poor student
20100329 21:13:03< gabba> boucman: (ok, actually it doesn't look *that* bad, but still...)
20100329 21:13:34< boucman> that was only half a joke :)
20100329 21:13:44< boucman> it's an area no dev really master at this point...
20100329 21:13:45< gabba> I know
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20100329 21:15:21< gabba> another thing to consider, is that if my source code is in a form whereby it's easy to integrate into the Wesnoth source code, a future project could add in-memory sprite sheets to save  generated images... dunno if you have some interest for that
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20100329 21:16:00< gabba> it would probably come very handy when you start working with power of two opengl textures and the like
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20100329 21:16:14< CIA-64> silene * r41877 /trunk/src/unit.cpp: Ensured that fake units are nonetheless created with the current unit map, so that the animation code can gracefully fall back on it when moving them around. (Fix for bug #15748.)
20100329 21:16:33< boucman> gabba: not sure what you mean
20100329 21:17:53< gabba> well, I don't know if SDL saves memory if you put several images on the same surface; but OpenGL certainly seems to work better with fewer large (power of two) textures instead of a myriad of small ones.
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20100329 21:19:02< boucman> gabba: interesting...
20100329 21:20:00< shadowmaster> it may save memory in SDL if the image is RLE-compressed in memory.
20100329 21:20:03< gabba> so all I'm saying is that it *may* be beneficial to place several small flipped, faded, recolored sprites on a large in-memory texture, and so you could reuse the code from my tool to place them optimally
20100329 21:20:10< shadowmaster> that creates a performance penalty at blitting time IIRC, though
20100329 21:20:41< boucman> gabba: since we plan to go openGL eventually, that's an interesting fact
20100329 21:21:19< gabba> I think that's pretty much why the ClanLib tool was created in the first place, it's an openGL engine
20100329 21:21:34< Shuger> why tere is no "add opengl support" gsoc idea? ;)
20100329 21:21:54< shadowmaster> Shuger: because it requires coordinated efforts from multiple devs, IIRC
20100329 21:21:59< Shuger> would be interesting, but huuuge amount of work
20100329 21:22:05< shadowmaster> i.e. "too large a project"
20100329 21:22:06< boucman> it was deemed too hard for a single student
20100329 21:22:34< Shuger> still, you plan to add it add some point?
20100329 21:22:39< Shuger> *at
20100329 21:22:40< boucman> yes
20100329 21:23:23< gabba> shadowmaster: what's blitting, exactly?
20100329 21:23:32< timotei21> drawing the screen
20100329 21:23:34< timotei21> afaik
20100329 21:23:37< Shuger> you put one surface onto another
20100329 21:23:46< shadowmaster> gabba: what shuger says
20100329 21:23:53< timotei21> oh, sry
20100329 21:23:57< Shuger> for example, you blit sprite surface onto screen surface
20100329 21:24:16< shadowmaster> timotei21: yes, you can blit a huge bitmap onto the screen on every cycle and call that "drawing the screen"
20100329 21:24:38< shadowmaster> but smaller blits tend to be faster on software
20100329 21:25:03< gabba> shadowmaster: ah ok, so you're simply saying that decompressing the image before displaying it is slower
20100329 21:25:06< timotei21> didn't know that
20100329 21:25:50< shadowmaster> gabba: I think so (when everything's being done with software...)
20100329 21:26:14< Shuger> it's pretty unclear, with hardware surfaces and stuff
20100329 21:26:14< shadowmaster> I'm not really sure how good SDL's compression is for often-blit surfaces
20100329 21:26:30< timotei21> boucman: what happens, if as a gsoc project... is finished earlier than the required date?
20100329 21:26:47< timotei21> I mean, I want to start working now, so I can increase my chances to be accepted...
20100329 21:27:03< timotei21> but that won't be counted as a GSOC "part", as it's outside the timeline
20100329 21:27:10< timotei21> like fendrin already said
20100329 21:27:43< boucman> timotei21: if you're in and finish early, that we will congratulate you :)
20100329 21:28:02< boucman> either you have been very efficient or we didn't wieght the task properly
20100329 21:28:07< timotei21> :P
20100329 21:28:14< timotei21> well,ok
20100329 21:28:21< boucman> in both cases, we'll try to get you interested in another job for us, because we like to keep our devs
20100329 21:28:55< noy> There are always plenty of jobs
20100329 21:28:59< timotei21> yes, of course
20100329 21:29:01< boucman> as for starting a project before the actual commit deadline, you can as long as the rules are clear
20100329 21:29:20< boucman> 1) we will review your work, but that does not force you to take you
20100329 21:29:46< boucman> 2) otoh, if we take someone else, he will be free to build on your work, this is open source after all...
20100329 21:30:06< boucman> that person can also ditch all your work if he wants to go a different way...
20100329 21:30:22< timotei21> cause, I'm working on the eclipse plugin, and I think it's better to start work on the plugin, rather than on EasyCoding/NotSoEasyCoding/Patches
20100329 21:30:26< timotei21> isn't it right?
20100329 21:30:43< boucman> 3) during the pre-soc period other students are also interested in the area, we expect you to help them/work with them if they want to work there too
20100329 21:31:17< boucman> (this last point would probably have a positive effect on our reviews, since it's always hard to juge a candidate's ability to teamwork)
20100329 21:31:36< noy> I think thats a fair assessment boucman 
20100329 21:32:09< boucman> timotei21: for eclipes specifically, i don't know how proposition dependant it is, you should ask one of the devs that currently work on it
20100329 21:33:44< timotei21> ok
20100329 21:33:55< timotei21> and if we're talking about this. there is the timeline
20100329 21:34:05< Shuger> do you know how many people you will be able to accept?
20100329 21:34:11< timotei21> on gsoc site. and according to id: May 24: 	
20100329 21:34:12< timotei21>     *
20100329 21:34:12< timotei21>       Students begin coding for their GSoC projects;
20100329 21:34:22< timotei21> shuger: 3 as far as I remember
20100329 21:34:48< timotei21> when we make the timeline for our project, we will take in account that date? 24May or after our acceptance?
20100329 21:34:51< timotei21> starting 9 april
20100329 21:36:06< boucman> start from may 24, you'll probably start earlier, but that's a bonus :)
20100329 21:36:29< noy> I would also say that starting early does have one advantage; it gives a sense of your ability to accomplish a task
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20100329 21:36:44< gabba> boucman: here's a quote from one of the clanlib devs that implemented the texture packer tool: "This really helps performance, as the ClanLib now can batch all the sprite drawing commands efficiently, as it won't have to change the texture state." -- I'm assuming this is with OpenGL, since that's their main rendering mode
20100329 21:36:48< noy> I mean your technical ability
20100329 21:37:02< noy> Shuger: no we don't
20100329 21:37:14< gabba> boucman: so it helps at least when you need to draw a bunch of related sprites in sequence.
20100329 21:38:16< Shuger> only with the opengl thought
20100329 21:38:34< Shuger> in SDL - it doesnt really matter
20100329 21:39:48-!- rolando [~rolando@157.67.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20100329 21:40:29< Shuger> the whole problem with state switching in opengl is that calling opengl functions executes the opengl driver code and that can tak from hundred to thousand cycles
20100329 21:40:56< boucman> the problem with opengl is that multi-platform support is a mess :)
20100329 21:41:29< Shuger> hehe, right
20100329 21:41:40< shadowmaster> particularly accelerated support
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20100329 21:43:24< Shuger> still - there's real alternative if you want go multipratform with hardware acceleration
20100329 21:43:32< Shuger> *no real
20100329 21:43:41< shadowmaster> you had me hoping for a second
20100329 21:43:50< shadowmaster> 7 seconds
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20100329 21:44:55< Shuger> sorry... at least you lived 7 seconds of your life in a btter world
20100329 21:45:02-!- jdlkem [jdlkem@dhcp-0049561483-86-65.client.student.harvard.edu] has quit []
20100329 21:45:12< shadowmaster> I wish.
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20100329 21:48:33< shadowmaster> okay, let's see what happens if I automatically upgrade my test forums
20100329 21:49:25< shadowmaster> *cue database backup*
20100329 21:51:47< shadowmaster> uh
20100329 21:54:02< shadowmaster> yeah. It's not as Oh-Super-Duper-Awesome-Magic-Tool as they advertise.
20100329 21:55:30< timotei21> does anyone know if wubi works with any distro, besides ubuntu?:D
20100329 21:57:58< shadowmaster> well, this crap *seems* to work (minus one unresolved file conflict)
20100329 21:58:29< shadowmaster> it's just so difficult to be sure it didn't mess up anywhere :/
20100329 21:58:35-!- theodore [~theodore@ALagny-153-1-7-252.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100329 21:59:23< shadowmaster> I don't think I am trusting the integrity of a live installation to an automated tool anyway.
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20100329 22:06:23< timotei21> ok guys
20100329 22:06:26< timotei21> good night
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20100329 22:55:32< fabi> wesbot, seen crab?
20100329 22:55:32< wesbot> fabi: Sorry, I don't know of crab.
20100329 22:55:37< fabi> wesbot, seen crab_?
20100329 22:55:37< wesbot> fabi: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 7h 2m ago.  6h 24m ago they left with the message: Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org
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20100329 23:21:41< Shuger> who is the best person to ask about spritesheet idea?
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20100329 23:25:10< Greywhind> hi - anyone here from the project interested in talking about GSOC stuff for a bit?
20100329 23:28:34< Espreon> Sadly, the people with the answers seem to be away...
20100329 23:31:00< Greywhind> that's fine
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20100329 23:35:23< boucman> that would be me, but I won't stay here long, so probably another day
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 30 00:00:03 2010