--- Log opened Thu Apr 01 00:00:41 2010
20100401 00:00:46< noy> If we look at any other strategy game, there is absolutely no discussion of this whatsoever
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20100401 00:05:01< _jbx_> Well, just a quick anecdote: there was a dice rolling board game called axis and allies, one of my favorite games,  that was made cloned by triplea (open source thing).  This game included a Low Luck mod for online play that reduced the dice rolling dramatically, and the community was split into two.  Those who would only use LL and those who would only use Dice.  I could easily see something similar happening just by including the option.  Maybe that's 
20100401 00:05:29< _jbx_> Ironically, the LL players still complained about luck, because when it was forcefully reduced....a single luck event would then dramatically turn games around, because the narrow margins of Luck error.
20100401 00:05:56< Soliton> "Maybe that's"<cut>
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20100401 00:06:07< _jbx_> aybe that's ok for wesnoth, maybe its not.
20100401 00:06:08< _jbx_> oops
20100401 00:06:28< Soliton> was/is that an even split?
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20100401 00:06:41< Soliton> or like a minority plays the LL mod?
20100401 00:06:57< _jbx_> i'm not sure, it was mostly LL players though
20100401 00:07:03< _jbx_> dice seemed to scare people off
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20100401 00:07:11< _jbx_> even though that was the original way of playing
20100401 00:07:33< _jbx_> but the divide was pretty iron clad
20100401 00:07:49< _jbx_> you were either a LL player, or a dice player
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20100401 00:10:17< Soliton> at this point i think such a potential split isn't really worrying with our community size. if it allows those who don't like to play now enjoy wesnoth that's cool with me.
20100401 00:10:33< Soliton> and i don't really think it'd be a big split.
20100401 00:11:08< _jbx_> I guess I'm starting to lean that way myself.  The split may be acceptable with such a large player base.
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20100401 00:11:18< Soliton> mainly i hope it'd just shut up the complaints since people get a simple option to try.
20100401 00:12:43< Soliton> i don't think there is a really fun way to lower the randomness but maybe some people will like it or need it for their psychology. ;-)
20100401 00:13:11< _jbx_> It will skew balance to hell though
20100401 00:13:11< Blarumyrran> You'd need new eras for that though
20100401 00:13:21< noy> Well I think its one of those things that if people who start playing it and don't know better just go for it. 
20100401 00:13:24< Blarumyrran> damn.
20100401 00:13:27< Soliton> yeah.
20100401 00:14:04< Soliton> noy: i don't think they'll see a lot of examples in current playing practice.
20100401 00:14:11< Soliton> and it won't be default.
20100401 00:14:22< noy> I think over the long term Rng games are more satisfying
20100401 00:14:31< Soliton> exactly.
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20100401 00:16:23< noy> Its actually interesting to see that most of the "hardcore" strategy games use a random element
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20100401 00:16:37< Blarumyrran> Civilization had very brutal randomness
20100401 00:16:47< noy> its the easier games that don't have it
20100401 00:16:59< noy> stuff like advanced wars, which are entry level strategies
20100401 00:17:23< Soliton> dude, it say advanced right in the title!
20100401 00:17:23< loonycyborg> IIRC original civilization used some kind of karma system.
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20100401 00:18:07< Blarumyrran> Not visibly at least
20100401 00:18:27< _jbx_> advanced wars was fun, no need to hate on it, but it is indeed an entry level game
20100401 00:18:43< noy> the most advanced strategy games (like those published by Atomic in the 1990s) added modifiers to the RNG depending on situation
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20100401 00:21:02< noy> _jbx_: I'm not hating on it, I'm noting the development of this genre and how it relates to the use of RNG
20100401 00:22:02< _jbx_> I almost wonder if we did provide some system of modified luck, would that really stop the complaints?  my guess is there would only be new things to complain about
20100401 00:22:17< _jbx_> as evidenced by my tripleA story
20100401 00:22:22< Mythological> it would stop the complaints about luck
20100401 00:22:34< _jbx_> Mythological: only if it was 100% determined
20100401 00:22:40< noy> Well look at Mutilis' posting
20100401 00:22:47< noy> he basically ripped on every aspect of the game
20100401 00:23:18< noy> A certain individual with the intials of J and W complained about quite a bit too
20100401 00:23:18< _jbx_> even a %5 chance will happen, so then it become even more of a factor, since it's suppossed to be modified luck
20100401 00:24:09< noy> 5d complains about luck, balance and a whole host of mp issues
20100401 00:24:55< noy> Its a certain pathology which I don't think tries to understand why things are the way they are or tries to be constructive. 
20100401 00:25:22< _jbx_> could be
20100401 00:25:27< Mythological> well they dont like to be constructive
20100401 00:25:35< Mythological> they demand a change
20100401 00:25:54< _jbx_> I wish players would focus more on content, rather than changing core systems
20100401 00:25:57< Mythological> and this way their wish is granted, at least to a certain degree
20100401 00:26:27< _jbx_> Content is the single most important thing for wesnoth's future 
20100401 00:26:42< _jbx_> since the game already "works"
20100401 00:26:44< _jbx_> and has for years
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20100401 00:26:58< Mythological> wesnoth has a lot of content
20100401 00:27:19< Mythological> and it is not hard to guess that it'll have even more in the future
20100401 00:28:11< _jbx_> yes Mythological
20100401 00:28:15< _jbx_> anyway, quitting time for me
20100401 00:28:17< _jbx_> see you
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20100401 00:28:20< fabi> Do you honestly think that this fork will take off?
20100401 00:29:14< noy> personally? I think it depends on how we sanction it
20100401 00:29:23< Soliton> the way the "main developer" tries to get banned from wikipedia.. probably not.
20100401 00:29:28< Soliton> he's too busy.
20100401 00:29:39< noy> Actually I think he's probably the worst person to lead it
20100401 00:29:56< Mythological> what are you talking about, Soliton?
20100401 00:30:06< noy> we're talking about mutilis
20100401 00:30:36< Soliton> Mythological: http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29368
20100401 00:31:39< fabi> Is any of the patches / eras ever made to reduce luck working without the need to redo all the factions?
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20100401 00:32:23< Soliton> nobody tried them enough to really find out. :-P  but probably, yeah.
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20100401 00:36:18< fabi> multilis is just a evil troll. All his posts are garbage. He claims that he will contact google to not accept wesnoth into gsoc.
20100401 00:36:35< noy> fabi: he did that to me
20100401 00:36:47< noy> it was one of the most laughable experiences I've ever been party to
20100401 00:37:25< fabi> He said that to you?
20100401 00:37:41< noy> Yeah, in discussion
20100401 00:37:52< noy> because "we're evil" and Google doesn't perpetrate evil
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20100401 00:38:17< fabi> Oh boy.
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20100401 00:38:56< Mythological> that page looks like yet another edit war on wikipedia
20100401 00:39:15< fabi> Giving him any forum by supporting a wesnoth fork for his ideas is not the way to go.
20100401 00:39:30< Mythological> I have witnessed too many of them :/
20100401 00:43:18< Mythological> but I agree with your PoV about banning, Soliton
20100401 00:44:07< Mythological> that multitlis person definitly vandalised the wikipage
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20100401 00:45:58< Mythological> wesbot: seen mordante
20100401 00:45:58< wesbot> Mythological: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 1h 9m ago.  1h 9m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Quit: Leaving
20100401 00:46:07< Mythological> wesbot: thank you
20100401 00:46:07< wesbot> Mythological: You are welcome.
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20100401 00:56:04< fakedrake> hi all
20100401 00:56:10< endercoaster> Hello
20100401 00:56:29< ben_m> Hey ;)
20100401 00:57:14< noy> hello
20100401 01:01:22< Gambit> His email to google won't even get read by a real person.
20100401 01:02:06< shadowmaster> hm
20100401 01:02:08< Gambit> It will get opened by a pop3 bot that will instantly recognize ignorance and delete it.
20100401 01:02:45< Gambit> Then it will send a message to the SMTP bot which will send some generic thanks in reply.
20100401 01:07:12< Gambit> Then, once his AMAZING idea elicits no real action, he will come back to the forums with a conspiracy theory relating to Dave working for google and abusing his power.
20100401 01:07:38< Gambit> Then he will email google again about the evil employee.
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20100401 01:29:35< YogiHH> good night everybody
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20100401 02:39:52< Desciero> quick question
20100401 02:40:08< Desciero> what's the text editing tool I can use for in-game dialogue?
20100401 02:40:20< Desciero> I've used it before but forgot what it is
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20100401 04:00:39< Gambit> Desciero: You mean for translating?
20100401 04:00:52< Desciero> Gambit: Yes
20100401 04:00:55< Gambit> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GetText
20100401 04:01:39< Desciero> Gambit: Which one should I use if I'm just editing english
20100401 04:01:41< Desciero> ?
20100401 04:02:04< Gambit> Wait, you want to edit what the characters are saying?
20100401 04:02:30< Gambit> if so: a text editor... like notepad or gedit or whatever Mac has.
20100401 04:03:07< Gambit> I don't understand your question now I'm afraid.
20100401 04:03:54< Desciero> ok
20100401 04:03:58< Desciero> I'm an english editor
20100401 04:04:05< Desciero> I just edit the english translation
20100401 04:04:08< Desciero> to make it better
20100401 04:04:14< Desciero> not to translate into another language
20100401 04:04:19< Desciero> which program would I use?
20100401 04:04:34< ancestral> Well you can just edit the scenario text files
20100401 04:04:42< ancestral> Unless you plan on making a new dialect
20100401 04:05:00< ancestral> i.e. Olde English or something
20100401 04:05:16< Desciero> I don't want to sift through code though
20100401 04:05:18< Gambit> I guess still GetText since the english language is stored in a translationary file just like the rest of them.
20100401 04:05:22< Desciero> I just want to see the dialogue
20100401 04:05:37< ancestral> Well it's in the code
20100401 04:05:42< ancestral> I mean it's not really "code"
20100401 04:05:59< Gambit> If you knew which campaign you had in mind, you could copy the transcript of it out of the wiki
20100401 04:06:01< Desciero> Gambit: For devs or translators ? there's two versions apparently
20100401 04:06:07< Gambit> Edit that, and then resubmit.
20100401 04:06:10< Desciero> It's a usermade campaign
20100401 04:06:22< Gambit> And its main language is english?
20100401 04:06:31< Desciero> yes
20100401 04:06:31< Gambit> The language its written in I mean?
20100401 04:06:38< Gambit> Then yeah you'll have to sift through code.
20100401 04:06:44< Gambit> In a text editor.
20100401 04:06:50< Gambit> Just edit->find underscores
20100401 04:06:51< Desciero> Ok, maybe I'm not being clear.
20100401 04:06:54< Gambit> that'll make your life easier.
20100401 04:06:55< Desciero> Because I did this before.
20100401 04:07:06< Desciero> For the Wesnoth tutorial.
20100401 04:07:21< Gambit> Right but in that case the english version was stored in a PO file
20100401 04:07:24< Desciero> Someone pointed me to a program that shows me the in-game text.
20100401 04:07:24< shadowmaster> Desciero: you want to contact the campaign maintainer first
20100401 04:07:25< Gambit> and you could use GetText
20100401 04:07:30< shadowmaster> Gambit: wrong.
20100401 04:08:02< shadowmaster> Gambit: only the English (UK) *translation* has gettext catalogues. The C/English (US) text is embedded in the C++ and WML
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20100401 04:08:34 * ancestral nearly forgot Oracle owns Sun now…
20100401 04:08:50< Desciero> ok so use GetText or not?
20100401 04:08:57< shadowmaster> ancestral: yeah, I'm still trying to understand why they call it Oracle VM VirtualBox now in their blog...
20100401 04:09:16< shadowmaster> yet the last couuple of releases ince January callit SUn VirtualBox still
20100401 04:09:33< ancestral> :)
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20100401 04:14:47< Desciero> still unclear
20100401 04:14:52< Desciero> can I use GetText?
20100401 04:15:05< shadowmaster> it's the original English (US) text that you want to fix?
20100401 04:15:14< Desciero> its a usermade campaign
20100401 04:15:19< Desciero> and its all in english
20100401 04:15:26< shadowmaster> yes, and it's the original English (US) text on it that you want to fix, right
20100401 04:15:31< Desciero> right
20100401 04:15:46< shadowmaster> so, no. Using gettext catalogues will only make your and the maintainer's work more difficult.
20100401 04:15:59< Desciero> ok
20100401 04:16:02< shadowmaster> they are intended to be used for translations, not for patching
20100401 04:16:07< Desciero> so just go straight to the code, then?
20100401 04:16:16< shadowmaster> yes
20100401 04:16:49< Desciero> ok thanks - never edited a usermade campaign before
20100401 04:17:03< shadowmaster> you want to contact the maintainer, though
20100401 04:17:44< Desciero> yeah we've spoken
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20100401 05:25:53< fakedrake> has anyone looked into the wml parsing code?
20100401 05:29:47< awilkins> I haven't looked at the code itself yet, but I'm interested in the same project.
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20100401 05:48:23< Espreon> mordante: https://gna.org/bugs/?15615 ... an update... yayz...
20100401 05:49:11< Espreon> mordante: Before the "OMG" in the contents of that variable, there is a double quote ("). Sorry.
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20100401 09:31:33< mordante> servus
20100401 09:33:40< mordante> esr, if we merge DW and Beetlenaut wants to keep maintaining it we simply should give him svn access here
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20100401 09:58:37< freim> mordante: It's so strange to see that word being used as a greeting these days, given that it a latin word meaning slave
20100401 10:00:55< mordante> freim, it's pretty common in Southern Germany, but I didn't know it's original meaning
20100401 10:02:52< esr> mordante: I wouldn't object to that.  Who hands out commit access these days?  
20100401 10:03:23< mordante> esr, Beetlenaut needs to apply for commit access and Ivanovic can then allow it
20100401 10:04:00< freim> mordante: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servus
20100401 10:04:03< mordante> esr, in general we like the original author to keep maintaining their campaign, however most of the times it fails
20100401 10:04:43 * esr is happy to be an exception
20100401 10:04:58 * mordante would be happy with more exceptions ;-)
20100401 10:05:49< mordante> freim, ah yeah never noticed that on that page
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20100401 10:54:40< Ivanovic> moin
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20100401 10:57:07< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
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20100401 11:13:10< awilkins_> hello all
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20100401 11:16:32< awilkins_> zookeeper: I tried creating errors in some of the WML files under scenario, but what's a common example of a preprocessor error?
20100401 11:18:33< Ivanovic> Zarel: nice post in the forking thread!
20100401 11:18:49< Zarel> Ivanovic: ^_^
20100401 11:20:58< Ivanovic> hehehe, great april1st post by dave!
20100401 11:21:21< Zarel> You know.
20100401 11:21:36< Zarel> Next year, let's have our April Fool's Day joke be to replace our front pages! :D
20100401 11:21:43< Zarel> swap*
20100401 11:21:57< Zarel> next year*
20100401 11:25:33< mordante> indeed nice especially the first reply
20100401 11:25:47< Ivanovic> :)
20100401 11:26:49< awilkins_> Ivanovic: can you mark my forum account "awilkins" as a GSoC account?
20100401 11:27:14< Ivanovic> awilkins_: yes, i can, but it will need some time since i currently try to wake up, first
20100401 11:27:17< Ivanovic> though mordante can do it, too
20100401 11:27:19< Ivanovic> ;)
20100401 11:27:36< Ivanovic> time to cook some tea!
20100401 11:27:46< noy> I was willing to say that I have been worn down
20100401 11:27:52< noy> and I accept the need for RNG
20100401 11:28:00< awilkins_> Ivanovic: heh I know the feeling, it's 5:30 here. 
20100401 11:28:23< awilkins_> mordante: could you mark my forum account "awilkins" as a GSoC account?
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20100401 11:34:25< mordante> awilkins_, done
20100401 11:36:12< awilkins_> modante: thank you very much : )
20100401 11:36:19< awilkins_> mordante*
20100401 11:36:24< mordante> you're welcome
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20100401 11:50:50< zookeeper> awilkins_, i think the most common is probably leaving a quote unclosed and giving a macro the wrong number of arguments (for example {GENERIC_UNIT 1 Elvish Archer 20 31}, which has 4 arguments but expects 3)
20100401 11:51:14< zookeeper> eh, s/4/5 s/3/4
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20100401 12:08:31< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41913 /website/start/1.8/ (index.de.html po/de.po): updated German announcement translation (thanks mordante!)
20100401 12:08:57< awilkins_> zookeper: ah hah I see
20100401 12:09:39< awilkins_> zookeeper: I was playing around with some macros and got a bizarre cryptic error in an un-related file
20100401 12:12:04< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41914 /branches/1.8/utils/pofix.py: add another fix for a wrong url to the announcement
20100401 12:13:21< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41915 /website/start/1.8/ (64 files in 2 dirs): 
20100401 12:13:21< CIA-64> s,/tags/1.8/,/tags/1.8.0/,g
20100401 12:13:21< CIA-64> applied this pofix change to all po files and regenerated the html files
20100401 12:14:02< awilkins_> zookeeper: so a good proposal would be to accurately track down macro errors?
20100401 12:14:10< zookeeper> awilkins_, yep
20100401 12:14:53-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: announcing 1.8.0 now | 75 bugs, 256 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100401 12:15:04< awilkins_> zookeeper: also I was wondering, would anyone be interested in changing variables live using a GUI rather than :set_var ?
20100401 12:15:14< awilkins_> zookeeper: or is it not used that much?
20100401 12:15:29< zookeeper> awilkins_, i guess it could be useful to be able to do that through :inspect
20100401 12:16:07< zookeeper> i practically never use :set_var myself, but that's not to say other people won't
20100401 12:17:10< awilkins_> zookeeper: do you have to restart the entire program every time you edit a .cfg ? I found that annoying when I was playing around with them.
20100401 12:17:53< zookeeper> awilkins_, yes, although there was some shortcut (f5?) for doing that in the title screen
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20100401 12:20:29< awilkins_> zookeeper: ahh okay cool. Thank you for your help : ) Anything else you'd like to see implemented to help wml programming?
20100401 12:21:22< zookeeper> awilkins_, good question, but i don't think i have any specific ideas in my mind right now
20100401 12:23:42< awilkins_> zookeeper: Do you know the name of the C++ file that loads in the .cfg's and discovers errors? (looking now)
20100401 12:24:42< zookeeper> awilkins_, nope. i could make a guess, but it'd be as good as yours at best
20100401 12:31:17< Ivanovic> 1.8.0 forum post: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29385
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20100401 12:41:50< zookeeper> yippee
20100401 12:44:41< Ivanovic> wow, we already got 3,927,266 downloads via sf.net
20100401 12:44:54< Ivanovic> so basically we hat 900,000 downloads since announcing 1.6
20100401 12:45:06< Ivanovic> just via sf.net that is
20100401 12:45:32< Crab_> cool
20100401 12:47:41< Ivanovic> updated the frontpage
20100401 12:47:51< Ivanovic> everyone please check that things are correct and no mistakes left
20100401 12:48:28< Ivanovic> Soliton: could you please update the motds in all servers to reflect the release of 1.8?
20100401 13:02:24 * Ivanovic could not resist to post in the thread by sirp...
20100401 13:02:25< Ivanovic> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29383&start=0
20100401 13:09:16 * Crab_ feels tempted to document the hidden ai switches which control the AI usage of RNG, on AiWML wiki page...
20100401 13:14:48< ilor> Ivanovic: would it be possible to have the sorce code, linux, windows etc download hyperlinks underlined on the main page?
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20100401 13:15:28< ilor> right now they look a lot like a section header 
20100401 13:16:09< Ivanovic> ilor: no idea
20100401 13:16:18< Ivanovic> this is some magic css stuff done by ettin
20100401 13:21:09< ilor> Ivanovic: mind if I have a got at this and send you a diff later today?
20100401 13:21:30< Ivanovic> feel free to do so
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20100401 13:24:48< euschn> hi
20100401 13:24:56< timotei21> hi
20100401 13:26:01< Ivanovic> hi euschn, welcome back
20100401 13:26:10< euschn> hi Ivanovic 
20100401 13:27:00< euschn> and thanks. a question right away: I have been on hiatus for half a year now, is my developer access still valid?
20100401 13:27:17< Ivanovic> sure
20100401 13:27:27< Ivanovic> we tend to not revoke dev access unless you do some really bad stuff
20100401 13:28:01< euschn> great - the last semester at uni was brutal, but now Im hoping to have more time on my hands again and spend some on wesnoth
20100401 13:28:17< euschn> especially since I read that there was a plan to port wesnoth to opengl
20100401 13:28:48< Ivanovic> yes, we plan to eventually do so
20100401 13:28:59< Ivanovic> though first we need some developers volunteering to do the task
20100401 13:29:09< euschn> mhm
20100401 13:29:32< Ivanovic> everybody: i updated the compiling page to reflect the status of 1.8
20100401 13:29:43< Ivanovic> it would be great if you could check that the info is correct: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/CompilingWesnoth
20100401 13:29:54< euschn> I dont actually have a lot of opengl right now, but I was planning to look into it after doing some computer graphics lecture last semester
20100401 13:30:11< Ivanovic> euschn: cool
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20100401 13:38:50< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41916 /website/start/1.8/ (index.ru.html po/ru.po): updated Russian announcement translation
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20100401 13:44:09< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41917 /trunk/utils/pofix.py: cleanup of pofix.py
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20100401 13:51:26< Ivanovic> ahhh, this thread is really starting to get funny!
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20100401 13:51:28< Ivanovic> http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=418861#p418861
20100401 13:54:23< Blarumyrrar> You could give each installation of wesnoth a limited supply of random numbers generated by that, different for each download, and each time wesnoth detects an internet connection it would try to update those
20100401 13:55:21< Ivanovic> Blarumyrrar: nah, this would lead people to cheating and already knowing the random numbers in advance
20100401 13:55:38< Blarumyrrar> If people really want to, they can cheat even now
20100401 13:55:53< Blarumyrrar> If people don't really want to cheat, they won't look up how the numbes are used
20100401 13:56:01< zookeeper> the free downloads would be changed so that they only came with, say, 100000 random numbers, and then if you wanted to continue playing after those have been used up, you'd have to pay. like $10 per 100000 numbers.
20100401 13:56:14< Blarumyrrar> zookeeper, damn you've got the right mind for this
20100401 13:56:19< Ivanovic> zookeeper: feel free to comment in the thread!
20100401 13:56:21< Ivanovic> ^^
20100401 13:56:51-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 75 bugs, 256 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100401 13:57:36< zookeeper> imagine the revenue wesnoth could get! we could even sell premium random numbers for those who want to pay a bit extra to have better luck.
20100401 13:57:44< Ivanovic> yes, 100,000 random numbers for 10$ sounds fair
20100401 13:57:50< Ivanovic> we should add more berserk units!
20100401 13:57:52< Ivanovic> ^^
20100401 14:00:25< ilor> You are currenlt using standard random numbers. Update to PREMIUM random numbers for a month for just $19.99!
20100401 14:00:55< Ivanovic> this includes better luck for you and unlimited random numbers for one month!
20100401 14:01:40< Blarumyrrar> The next thing you now, some people will be selling their own sets of Wesnoth random numbers on ebay - they wouldn't be nearly as random as ours, but some cheap people might buy them anyway
20100401 14:02:03< Ivanovic> then we will have to warn not to use those random numbers
20100401 14:02:18< Ivanovic> since they are created using a cheap algorithm, probably the same one used so far!
20100401 14:02:19< Ivanovic> ^^
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20100401 14:05:54< orfest> Hi all!
20100401 14:06:28< timotei21> hello:)
20100401 14:07:26< Crab_> hi, orfest
20100401 14:09:07< Crab_> orfest: I've read your proposal, looks good
20100401 14:09:25< orfest> Crab_: thank you :)
20100401 14:10:08< Crab_> orfest: from the log..
20100401 14:10:16< Crab_> 23:22 <Crab_> orfest: ok, regarding 'how you'd allow the wesnoth client to multiplex connections to wesnoth server ?' - my planned use for this doesn't require GUI, it simply requires something like the ability for the client to encapsulate access to the server in a single c++ object
20100401 14:10:16< Crab_> 23:22 <Crab_> orfest: - e.g., then we'll be able to create a vector of such objects, each with his own copy of game state, and take part in multiple games at the same time.
20100401 14:11:26< Crab_> orfest: so, I think that a good think to do atm, is to tackle those two points you've identified as potential trouble spots - making sure that the design is good, and figuring out a good way to test the new code.
20100401 14:11:50< orfest> Crab_: shouldn't they simply represent the Game class?
20100401 14:12:03< orfest> Crab_: I mean "vector of such objects" :)
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20100401 14:13:18< orfest> Crab_: "atm" == as soon as possible? 
20100401 14:13:29< phlaem> at the moment?
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20100401 14:20:07< Crab_> orfest: atm - 'at the moment', there's still time, several weeks, till we select the student proposals which get accepted
20100401 14:20:29< orfest> Crab_: about the design. I'd like to start with a simple prototype
20100401 14:20:44< orfest> Crab_: shouldn't I start working now? :)
20100401 14:21:07< Crab_> orfest: so, seeing that you already though out the important details such as overall design, or made a prototype, will increase our confidence that the project would be finished successfully and without bugs :)
20100401 14:21:56< Crab_> orfest: and that will lead to higher chance of getting accepted. Overall, student's activity and results such as patches/prototypes are very important
20100401 14:22:10< Crab_> orfest: so, 'starting working now' is a great idea
20100401 14:22:28< Crab_> orfest: it's not required, but it's a definite plus.
20100401 14:22:43< Ivanovic> our rating does mainly depend on the "overall students activity" combined with the quality of the proposal
20100401 14:22:50< orfest> ok, I understand
20100401 14:23:32< Ivanovic> where the activity is not only about amount but also about quality and how steady are things going (eg "is the student around / does answer questions / check the backlog for his nick")
20100401 14:23:51< Crab_> orfest: about 'shouldn't they simply represent the Game class?' - yes, if your design will include a 'Game' class which wraps one connection to the MP server, it's good enough.
20100401 14:24:22< orfest> Crab_: that's exactly what I was thinking about =)
20100401 14:24:59< orfest> btw, isn't it possible to get HTTP_PROXY directly from environment? at least for now, not to modify GUI?
20100401 14:25:55< orfest> I can add proxy support for the statistics uploader to code and test socket-wrappers 
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20100401 14:28:37< Crab_> orfest: yes, possible. for *nix, that is :)
20100401 14:29:09< orfest> Crab_: why for nix? on windows it's also possible
20100401 14:30:04< Crab_> orfest: possible - yes, but it's almost never used by casual players :)
20100401 14:30:50< orfest> Crab_: ok :):)
20100401 14:30:51< Crab_> so, in the end, gui interface will be needed. but, of course, we can try to get it from environment.
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20100401 14:31:27< Crab_> in windows, generally proxy can be gotten by user applications from internet explorer properties, not through setting env variables
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20100401 15:03:37< Ivanovic> orfest, Crab_: any news on this patch? https://gna.org/patch/?1548
20100401 15:08:40< Crab_> Ivanovic: I'll commit it, when I'll find a few free minutes
20100401 15:10:00< Ivanovic> that is: this commit is *not* commitable to branches/1.8
20100401 15:10:12< Ivanovic> a bugfix release should not add a new dependency
20100401 15:12:01< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41918 /branches/1.8/players_changelog: the branches/1.8 players changelog should reference the branches/1.8 full changelog
20100401 15:14:14< mordante> I see no error in the announcements
20100401 15:14:35< Ivanovic> great
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20100401 15:42:04< fabi> Soliton: What if we introduce a slider that doubles or triples the hp, attacks and healing. That will reduce the amount of luck involved. Not a big thing luck haters are happy.
20100401 15:43:27< fabi> The only unbalanced thing I can think of is slow and poison.
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20100401 15:46:19< mordante> slow halves and poison can be scaled as well
20100401 15:46:52< mordante> only scaling too far will make the game too slow, due to the way the attack calculation is implemented
20100401 15:47:16< zookeeper> no it can't, because the effects either happen fully or not at all, and increasing attacks increases the odds of it happening
20100401 15:48:26< fabi> zookeeper, Yes, but if poison and slow happens more often we could reduce it's impact.
20100401 15:48:50 * zookeeper shrugs
20100401 15:48:56< zookeeper> maybe
20100401 15:49:30< zookeeper> poison would still negate your normal village/healer healing for one turn more easily, even if the damage itself was scaled appropriately
20100401 15:50:22< fabi> The luck haters will have to live with the fact that luckless mode is not that balanced.
20100401 15:50:37< mordante> zookeeper, I still fear it will work... 
20100401 15:51:48< mordante> fabi, probably the only way is to increase the amount of HP by a factor X and the number of swings by X as well
20100401 15:51:52< fabi> We can test it out. Maybe it is even liked to be played from luck supporters from time to time.
20100401 15:52:06< fabi> mordante: Exactly that was my proposal.
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20100401 15:52:28< mordante> oh I thought you meant the damage of the attack
20100401 15:52:34< zookeeper> sure, try it out. should be rather trivial to implement in fact.
20100401 15:52:44< mordante> fabi, you are aware Sirp added code for a less luck area?
20100401 15:52:59< fabi> mordante: Wasn't that april fool?
20100401 15:53:04< mordante> no
20100401 15:53:37< zookeeper> he means the accuracy era
20100401 15:53:59< fabi> But the accuracy era isn't by Sirp?
20100401 15:54:13< mordante> the code side is
20100401 15:54:23< mordante> zookeeper, and I see you also contributes a less luck area
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20100401 15:54:26< mordante> era*
20100401 16:01:14< CIA-64> fendrin * r41919 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/ (02_Across_the_Harsh_Sands.cfg 05_A_Subterranean_Struggle.cfg): UtBS 2,5; Added some TODO.
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20100401 16:23:16< Gambit> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=418906#p418906
20100401 16:23:29< Gambit> ^^^ that would be the icing on the cake that is the joke.
20100401 16:23:56< Gambit> Make every strike in multiplayer miss today. :P
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20100401 16:25:55< mordante> hmm we could do that with the random generator on the server, returning 42 all day long ;-)
20100401 16:25:55< Gambit> Or reverse the odds on defense.
20100401 16:26:22< Gambit> :)
20100401 16:27:49< mordante> I mean can't help my D100 ended at 42 ;-) ( http://xkcd.com/221/ )
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20100401 16:29:40< Ivanovic> :)
20100401 16:33:30< Ivanovic> okay, time for my breakfast
20100401 16:39:26< Soliton> fabi: you could try that but as you already discussed there are some more things that need tweaking then.
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20100401 16:40:03< Soliton> Ivanovic: i already updated the motds last week. did you see anywhere specific where it's not mentioned?
20100401 16:40:30< mordante> Ivanovic, you really know how to bend time ;-)
20100401 16:40:52< Soliton> in a bit i'll be gone over easter, probably without internet access.
20100401 16:41:57< Ivanovic> Soliton: no idea where else
20100401 16:42:09< Ivanovic> Soliton: just wanted to be sure that all motds mention that 1.8.0 is finally out
20100401 16:42:16< Soliton> ok, then it's probably already taken care of.
20100401 16:42:53< Ivanovic> that is: when trying to join the server for 1.8* (with 1.8.0+svn) i end with a trunk message
20100401 16:43:00< Ivanovic> some redirect seems to be broken / in wrong order
20100401 16:43:09< Soliton> bah
20100401 16:43:11< Ivanovic> argh, sorrry, wrong binary
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20100401 16:43:24< Soliton> ok, i'm pretty sure i already tested that.
20100401 16:44:41< Ivanovic> ilor: please join the mp server for 1.8
20100401 16:44:51< Ivanovic> ilor: i get my logs flodded with this message:
20100401 16:44:53< Ivanovic> 20100401 16:44:04 error config: Illegal character in map: (Tr) 'Tr'
20100401 16:44:54< Ivanovic> 20100401 16:44:04 error config: Error while loading the map: Illegal character in map: (Tr) 'Tr'
20100401 16:44:56< Ivanovic> The map cannot be loaded.
20100401 16:45:12< Ivanovic> yes, it appears *often*, again and again when scrolling in the map view
20100401 16:45:34 * Soliton waves &
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20100401 16:47:10< Ivanovic> mordante: huh?
20100401 16:47:26< Ivanovic> mordante: the first meal of the day is breakfast, right?
20100401 16:47:34< Ivanovic> and my chili con carne is my first meal
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20100401 16:49:47< mordante> well yesterday you wanted to announce during your breakfast tea... ;-)
20100401 16:54:23< Ivanovic> breakfast *tea*
20100401 16:54:32< Ivanovic> it is not "real" breakfast since no food is involved
20100401 16:54:47< mordante> but you don't have cookies with your tea?
20100401 16:55:12< Ivanovic> no
20100401 16:56:38< Ivanovic> just earl gray, white rock sugar and milk
20100401 16:57:58< mordante> I would be starving around this time
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20100401 17:21:51< Ivanovic> "Though I'm not sure. It'd be great if someone could start a poll to see how much people would be willing to pay for good quality random numbers."
20100401 17:22:06< Ivanovic> Sirp: you should read todays irc log
20100401 17:22:10< Ivanovic> i like the idea zookeeper had
20100401 17:22:20< Ivanovic> with "the first 10,000 random numbers are free"
20100401 17:22:30< Sirp> Ivanovic: yes I read that. :)
20100401 17:22:34< Ivanovic> and the next 100,000 cost some bundle pruce
20100401 17:22:53< Sirp> I think after 10,000 accurate random numbers, people will be hooked for life on high quality randomness.
20100401 17:23:00< Ivanovic> we could also offer a premium access that turns ads on the website off and gives you unlimited random numbers
20100401 17:23:09< ilor> first we give them real good random number for free to hook'em up
20100401 17:23:23< ilor> the we sell them random nubers, but not that good ones
20100401 17:23:27< ilor> *then
20100401 17:23:37< Sirp> maybe there should be an option though if you don't want to 'waste' your random numbers to use high quality random numbers for when you attack, but be satisfied with the lower quality stuff when the AI attacks.
20100401 17:24:29< Ivanovic> and we musn't forget to warn about the fake random numbers that probably will be available via some mysterious chinese source since those are most likely generated with some kind of the old, broken system
20100401 17:25:02< Ivanovic> the premium access could even include a "reduced luck" option
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20100401 17:40:56< Ivanovic> Sirp: but i think it really fits well that ilor implemented serverside rng support last summer
20100401 17:41:18< Ivanovic> since this way we *can* say that it is already used (in our magic server code) and point to an ancient changelog
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20100401 17:42:11< Ivanovic> (and yeah, those jokes that can rely on some truth tend to be the best ones...)
20100401 17:42:32< fabi> It works.
20100401 17:43:14< Dakmor> Heya guys, just been sitting here for a while spying on you =p
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20100401 17:43:31< Dakmor> Interesting the whole random number talk
20100401 17:43:41< Dakmor> I don't really get it though
20100401 17:43:54< Dakmor> Why would people want to pay for random numbers?
20100401 17:44:06< Ivanovic> GREAT!
20100401 17:44:11< Ivanovic> jb started the poll!
20100401 17:44:13< fabi> Dakmor: They are rare.
20100401 17:44:30< fabi> Dakmor: I mean the true ones.
20100401 17:44:31< Dakmor> As in, truely random numbers?
20100401 17:44:32< Dakmor> Oh
20100401 17:44:33< Dakmor> Okay
20100401 17:44:34< Sirp> Dakmor: well for many people the standard RNG works fine. However we think there is a certain user segment who is willing to pay a premium for completely accurate random numbers.
20100401 17:44:35< Ivanovic> Dakmor: we are talking about this thread, should explain everything: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29383
20100401 17:44:59< Sirp> also for free remember you get memory segment protection to protect the RNG seeds from the AI using mprotect()
20100401 17:44:59< ilor> Ivanovic: I wonder if it would take a lot of effort to make the srng give out seeds that always roll high...
20100401 17:45:08< Dakmor> Ahh okay cool thanks
20100401 17:45:29< Sirp> Dakmor: in that thread there is also a link to the two types of RNG's -- the old one and new one, so you can see the difference in random numbers for yourself.
20100401 17:45:40< Sirp> persnally I think they both look the same, but that might be my cognitive bias coming into play.
20100401 17:45:47< Dakmor> Thanks Sirp
20100401 17:46:36< Gambit> I wonder how it makes them feel that every time money is brought up it goes hand in hand with "hiring _real_ artists and mucisians"
20100401 17:46:54< Gambit> I hope the sarcasm in the rest of the post lets them know we love them.
20100401 17:47:32< fabi> Ivanovic, may I commit it?
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20100401 17:47:44< Ivanovic> fabi: *what*?
20100401 17:47:57< fabi> Ivanovic, The luck entschärfer.
20100401 17:48:10< Ivanovic> post about it to the dev-ml adding the patch to the mail
20100401 17:48:44< fabi> Ivanovic, I have added a slider that doubles or triples the HP and the amounts of attacks. That will make damage more predictable. And the healing will follow.
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20100401 17:49:48< Gambit> fabi: awesome!
20100401 17:50:22< Gambit> Can it max out at *100?
20100401 17:51:31-!- timotei [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20100401 17:51:40< fabi> Gambit, Huh?
20100401 17:51:49< Gambit> If you multiply HP and strikes by 100
20100401 17:52:01< fabi> lol
20100401 17:52:07< Gambit> The size will be so big that 20% defense will almost always actually mean 80% hits :P
20100401 17:52:10< fabi> It's from 1 to 3
20100401 17:52:41< fabi> I consider 3 times the attacks predictable enough for everyone.
20100401 17:52:49< fabi> Damn luck haters, I hate them.
20100401 17:53:23< Gambit> Shadowmaster damn them all to off topic.
20100401 17:53:34< fabi> They will never be satisfied. Multiply by 100? I don't get it.
20100401 17:53:55< fabi> Who wants to watch 500 attacks? Just to be not random? 
20100401 17:54:10< Gambit> lol at latest post in poll
20100401 17:54:15< Ivanovic> Gambit: indefinite multiply is *not* an option
20100401 17:54:24< Ivanovic> Gambit: the problem is with how the engine currently does work
20100401 17:54:44< Ivanovic> ai turns would take some hours each with too many strikes/hp
20100401 17:54:48< Gambit> Wait... the slider thing is serious?
20100401 17:55:03< Gambit> Rofl I thought it was part of the joke.
20100401 17:55:07< Ivanovic> you do know that we tend to not joke about this, right?
20100401 17:55:26< Ivanovic> why should it be a joke?
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20100401 17:56:09< fabi> Gambit: I can't see anything wrong with the slider. At least if everyone is paying my for their new luck.
20100401 17:56:21< fabi> Or unluck.
20100401 17:56:23 * Gambit can't tell now
20100401 17:56:36< Gambit> "But players with a better RNG would have a better chance to win ! Please don't  make us pay for being able to play competitively."
20100401 17:57:16< Ivanovic> i don't think it would really make a difference in regards to being competitive
20100401 17:58:09< Sirp> yeah are we going to have to display an icon next to players on the server to show how good their RNG is?
20100401 17:58:30< fabi> Well, we could offer the players that pay for the premium content the same cheat the ai uses at HARD?
20100401 17:58:30< Gambit> And a filter for "free RNG only"?
20100401 17:59:26< fabi> I think my new slider is at least worth 10$ per month extra.
20100401 17:59:53< Gambit> But the premium is yearly.
20100401 18:00:28< Ivanovic> Gambit: nothing decided yet!
20100401 18:01:57< fabi> Huh, my troll leader has 148HP! That is definitely worth 10$.
20100401 18:02:53< fabi> I feel like releasing another wesnoth fork that claims to be stable but has the slider.
20100401 18:03:14< Sirp> the thing is that on a Nehalem it takes about 18 seconds of CPU time to generate a random number
20100401 18:03:24< Sirp> so we have to work out how many such machines we can afford to get
20100401 18:03:40< Sirp> and then make sure that during peak playing time our machines don't get overloaded with people wanting random numbers
20100401 18:04:05< timotei21> wesbot: seen Crab_
20100401 18:04:05< wesbot> timotei21: The person with the nick Crab_ last spoke 2h 55m ago.  2h 2m ago they left with the message: Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org
20100401 18:04:27< Sirp> timotei21: what'd you want to talk to Crab about?
20100401 18:04:36< timotei21> damn, I missed it.
20100401 18:04:47< timotei21> Sirp, well... I wanted to look over my proposal
20100401 18:04:57< Sirp> timotei21: where's your proposal?
20100401 18:05:06< timotei21> here:http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerofCode_Timotei21
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20100401 18:10:14< Sirp> timotei21: I think it looks like a nice proposal. Probably the best thing to give you a good chance of being accepted would be to make some patches/changes for us and start contributing.
20100401 18:10:31< Gambit> I am amazed at the number of people who refuse to pay even $3.99 yearly for Wesnoth.
20100401 18:10:42< timotei21> yes, that's what fabi told me, too. 
20100401 18:10:43< Gambit> Over the course of the games life that isn't even as much as a commercial game.
20100401 18:11:04< timotei21> I'll start today, or tomorrow, cause reinstalled my windows :))
20100401 18:11:08< Gambit> And Wesnoth creams a good deal of commercial games (even outside of it's genre).
20100401 18:11:09< Sirp> timotei21: more than anything else in a GSoC student we want someone who can work well with our team
20100401 18:12:17< timotei21> yes, I know
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20100401 18:24:06< Bdorf> Gambit: heh, don't be too surprised...its notoriously difficult to convince consumers to pay, especiallly when they're accustomed to free. As a dev, it can be difficult to understand/relate.
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20100401 19:20:56< Dakmor> So, I've compiled the source, had a look though the ideas and picked out the ones that interest me, made accounts on gna, wesnoth forum and wiki.
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20100401 19:21:35< Dakmor> Would now be a good time to have a go at a bug on EasyCoding, or to start thinking about what idea I'm most interested in?
20100401 19:21:58< timotei21> you'd better think about the idea
20100401 19:22:22< Dakmor> You're doing the Eclipse plugin aren't you?
20100401 19:22:26< Dakmor> Nice to meet you
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20100401 19:22:30< timotei21> make a proposal, try to ellaborate it, so the mentors could see you got the idea
20100401 19:22:31< timotei21> yes
20100401 19:22:33< timotei21> me too:)
20100401 19:22:48< Sirp> to be completely honest, if you convince us you're a good developer who will work well with our team we will find an idea for you.
20100401 19:22:48< timotei21> and add a timeline also
20100401 19:22:56< timotei21> :D
20100401 19:23:02< Dakmor> I've been idling in here for a couple of days just seeing what's going on.
20100401 19:23:04< Sirp> if you have a good idea but we don't know if you're a good developer, then we won't be able to pick you.
20100401 19:23:12< timotei21> yes...
20100401 19:23:13< Dakmor> Ahh okay
20100401 19:23:28< Dakmor> So I should be looking at the Easycoding page first then?
20100401 19:23:40< ancestral> Kind of like being picked for teams for dodgeball
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20100401 19:24:06< Dakmor> I've picked out 4 ideas I'm interested in and that I'm comfortable that I'll be able to handle
20100401 19:24:07< Dakmor> Heh okay
20100401 19:25:33< awilkins_> do you mind if I ask how many students you're looking for this year?
20100401 19:26:26< awilkins_> I've been her for a couple days, but I haven't seen that asked yet
20100401 19:26:32< Dakmor> Sirp, am I allowed multiple proposals, or should I be focussing on one?
20100401 19:27:19< endercoaster> Dakmor: I know that Gabba is doing two proposals, so I'm pretty confident that we can.
20100401 19:27:46< endercoaster> Dakmor: Obviously, nobody's going to be accepted for more than one proposal.
20100401 19:27:48< Dakmor> Okay thanks, I just wanna avoid spreading myself too thin I guess.
20100401 19:28:02< Dakmor> Heh yeah
20100401 19:28:43< Sirp> Dakmor: I'd tend to recommend choosing your favorite one, focusing on that, but then saying that you're happy to work on other ideas if we think you're better suited to them.
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20100401 19:29:17< Sirp> awilkins_: not sure, but maybe 4 or 5 students. I think it depends on how many really good students we get.
20100401 19:30:05< Sirp> we had 6 last year, but I think we have less mentor resources this year than last.
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20100401 19:32:12< awilkins_> Sirp: even with the addition of Crab_ as a mentor?
20100401 19:32:34< Ivanovic> by far less resources
20100401 19:32:50< Ivanovic> it is more likely that we just have 3 slots instead of 5
20100401 19:33:27< awilkins_> Ivanovic: so basically anyway trying to get into the community now is to late? hah
20100401 19:33:36< Ivanovic> no, it is not
20100401 19:33:53< Ivanovic> we have *not* selected the students yet
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20100401 19:34:10< Ivanovic> and we will do the "real" selection only after submission time is over
20100401 19:34:28< Ivanovic> though all the time till then does of course count
20100401 19:35:02< Ivanovic> ;)
20100401 19:35:06< Greywhind> hello again - anyone here happen to have glanced at my proposal page on the wiki?
20100401 19:35:19< awilkins_> Ivanovic: heh good to know. I wasn't implying that anyone's already made up their mind. I just was under the impression there's already more than three students who have been apart of the project longer. : p
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20100401 19:36:02< Ivanovic> no, so far noone who already had commit access before wesnoth was accepted into SoC has stated that he or she wants to participate
20100401 19:36:22< Dakmor> Sirp, Thanks. Okay well I think porting input framework looks like fun so I'll write a proposal for that to start.
20100401 19:36:55< awilkins_> Ivanovic: ohh that is good news!
20100401 19:37:18< Sirp> personally I would really love it if we had a talented student who was interested in making the WML environment report better errors so it's easier to develop in WML.
20100401 19:37:37< awilkins_> Sirp: that's actually my project of choice
20100401 19:37:58< Sirp> awilkins_: great, I look forward to seeing your proposal then.
20100401 19:38:06< heltonduarte> hey everybody...I'll write a proposal about porting input framework too...I've already talked to mordante about it, but I'm still studying the code and the game
20100401 19:38:16< awilkins_> Sirp: right now my goals involve better error reporting on mis-use of macros, and possibly being able to edit variables in game using the :inspect command
20100401 19:38:27< Sirp> in past years we have also had 'grilling' sessions where we 'grilled' students on technical questions to see how good they are. Students are welcome to err....volunteer for said grilling. :)
20100401 19:39:02< Sirp> awilkins_: well, I was really hoping that somebody could do something to make sure that if someone has an error in their WML it consistently gives the line number the error is from.
20100401 19:39:25< endercoaster> *will raise hand for that after reading some documentation on WML*
20100401 19:39:31< heltonduarte> I'm studying the SDL more deeply and I hope till monday or tuesday I'll make my official proposal...
20100401 19:39:51< awilkins_> Sirp: I noticed that typos in the WML gives accurate line numbers. But if you call on a macro with the wrong arguments you get truly bizarre error messages.
20100401 19:39:56< Ivanovic> Greywhind: a link would have been helpfull
20100401 19:39:57< Ivanovic> ;)
20100401 19:40:05< Sirp> awilkins_: yes, exactly
20100401 19:40:19< Greywhind> Ivanovic: ah, of course
20100401 19:40:19< Sirp> awilkins_: would be nice to fix.
20100401 19:40:24< Greywhind> my proposal is at: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeGreywhind
20100401 19:41:30< Sirp> Greywhind: since you were a SoC student last year, can you include a way for us to contact (email or IRC) your mentor from last year?
20100401 19:41:37< endercoaster> I'll get into the proposal feedback FIFO: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC:_Endercoaster
20100401 19:41:55< awilkins_> Sirp: do you know which C++ file loads in the .cfg files into the game? I was trying to find it yesterday, but ran out of time.
20100401 19:41:57< Sirp> on your application, that is.
20100401 19:42:04< Greywhind> Sirp: certainly. let me put that on now.
20100401 19:42:10< Sirp> awilkins_: config.hpp/.cpp
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20100401 19:42:17< Ivanovic> Greywhind: fron what i see, so far you have filled the questionnaire
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20100401 19:42:27< Ivanovic> Greywhind: but there is not much about the proposal in it
20100401 19:42:58< awilkins_> Sirp: oh of course! I was looking for WML realized the wml cpp files only handle error exception and than was confused where to go from there.
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20100401 19:43:16< mordante> the poll is great especially this reply "But players with a better RNG would have a better chance to win ! Please don't make us pay for being able to play competitively."
20100401 19:43:27< Ivanovic> :)
20100401 19:43:37 * Sirp --> lunch
20100401 19:43:39< Greywhind> Ivanovic: well, i tried to include an estimated time-line, but I have still not had as much chance as I'd like to look into the code itself
20100401 19:43:50< mordante> I wonder what that person thinks is a better rng...
20100401 19:43:54< Greywhind> Ivanovic: i'd be interested in talking about where the best places are to begin
20100401 19:44:46< Greywhind> unfortunately, i have to go for now
20100401 19:45:05< Ivanovic> Greywhind: there is really not much proposal so far
20100401 19:45:11< CIA-64> mordante * r41920 /trunk/src/serialization/binary_wml.cpp: Remove and unneeded include.
20100401 19:45:20< Ivanovic> write some text about what you would like to see and the likes
20100401 19:45:33< Ivanovic> yes, a little more than just one paragraph is required, it is not just about a timeline
20100401 19:45:36< Greywhind> Ivanovic: ok. i'll work on that.
20100401 19:45:43< Greywhind> thanks for the advice
20100401 19:47:54< endercoaster> mordante: re: "better" rng: http://www.xkcd.com/221/
20100401 19:47:57< Ivanovic> Greywhind: in general try to split the questionnaire from the proposal at least a little
20100401 19:48:17< Greywhind> Ivanovic: ok. i'll separate it out and add more detail.
20100401 19:48:34< Ivanovic> Greywhind: it is perfectly fine to say "this part of the questionnaire is mentioned at ABC in detail, all questions are answered there"
20100401 19:48:54< Greywhind> sounds good
20100401 19:49:22< Ivanovic> to see an exceptional example of how a proposal can look; http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20100401 19:50:32< Greywhind> ah. great - looks like a really helpful link. i doubt i'll be able to match something like that, but i'll do what i can :)
20100401 19:50:47< Ivanovic> like i said, exceptional
20100401 19:50:56< CIA-64> mordante * r41921 /trunk/ (11 files in 6 dirs): Add a gui2 progress bar widget.
20100401 19:51:19< mordante> endercoaster, ?
20100401 19:51:23< Greywhind> well, as i said, unfortunately i have to go for now
20100401 19:51:28< Greywhind> but i really appreciate the feedback
20100401 19:52:11< Greywhind> as soon as i get permission from last year's mentor, i'll put his contact info up
20100401 19:52:12< endercoaster> mordante: comic popped into my head when you brought up people talking about "better RNGs"
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20100401 19:52:48< mordante> endercoaster, ah ok, I had the same, thus posted the link
20100401 19:55:47< CIA-64> mordante * r41922 /trunk/data/gui/default/widget/progress_bar_default.cfg: Add a file forgotten in my last commit.
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20100401 20:05:52< silene> hi
20100401 20:06:07< timotei21> hi
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20100401 20:07:52< YogiHH> hello
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20100401 20:10:28< Ivanovic> hi YogiHH
20100401 20:10:29< mordante> hi silene & YogiHH 
20100401 20:11:42< endercoaster> Hi silene & YogiHH
20100401 20:13:47< fabi> Hallo YogiHH 
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20100401 20:30:50< mordante> Ivanovic, btw any news on Pandora?
20100401 20:38:33< endercoaster> Can anybody point me to where I should start looking to add support for victory_when_enemies_defeated to multiplayer?
20100401 20:40:50< Sirp> well you could start with grep victory_when_enemies_defeated *.cpp   :)
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20100401 20:46:40< Gambit> Umm doesn't multiplayer already use victory_when_enemies_defeated?
20100401 20:47:06< Gambit> If not, I've been getting some *really* weird behaviour in some of my multiplayer scenarios...
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20100401 21:07:50< timotei21> hello crab_
20100401 21:07:58< Crab_> hi, timotei21
20100401 21:08:42< timotei21> well, at last I have some 1-2 hours free time, so if you have time,too, we can discuss if you have anything regarding my proposal
20100401 21:09:10< pokhbocee> Crab_: hey.
20100401 21:09:37< Crab_> hi, pokhbocee
20100401 21:09:44< Crab_> timotei21: ok, I'll reread through it now
20100401 21:10:01< pokhbocee> Crab_: where do we specify the header of a map?
20100401 21:11:32< Crab_> pokhbocee: afaik, before the terrain; see any map file, e.g.  data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/02_Hostile_mountains.map
20100401 21:13:41< pokhbocee> Crab_ i did the same way but i get error for the test class i wrote.
20100401 21:13:44< Tesafilmchen> hi all, is this a known issue that the "rooms" section in the lobby doesnt expand properly?
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20100401 21:17:13< pokhbocee> Crab_ : http://imagebin.org/91250
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20100401 21:18:27< Crab_> pokhbocee: try to show your code to other people, e.g. somewhere on 'wml workshop' forum 
20100401 21:18:42< pokhbocee> Crab_: ok ty
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20100401 21:18:45< Crab_> pokhbocee: without seeing all the code, it's hard to find out the exact reason
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20100401 21:21:23< mordante> Tesafilmchen, no best file a bug report
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20100401 21:21:40< Tesafilmchen> ok ill do it
20100401 21:21:51< mordante> thanks
20100401 21:23:28< pokhbocee> Crab_: i have finished close_enemies and nearest unit.
20100401 21:23:44< pokhbocee> should i keep implementing the res of the methods or do smth else
20100401 21:24:07< Crab_> pokhbocee: 'post a patch showing your work', I'd say
20100401 21:24:23< pokhbocee> oh can i make a patch for 2 methods?
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20100401 21:24:50< Tesafilmchen> mordante: multiplayer or user interface and wich severity? (just to make it right :) )
20100401 21:26:04< pokhbocee> after the patch. what should i work on? I want to do smth challenging, because now I learned the interface, and also want to use my ai background. and then i can keep working on implementation of the rest of the methods
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20100401 21:27:37< mordante> Tesafilmchen, not too important but UI
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20100401 21:29:13< Crab_> pokhbocee: let me see the patch first, I'll propose a few ideas then
20100401 21:29:25< pokhbocee> ok 
20100401 21:30:03< Tesafilmchen> mordante: damn, seems after a restart it is solved, now it resizes properly... shall i wait with the report until i know what triggered it maybe or report it anyway
20100401 21:31:07< Crab_> Tesafilmchen: yes, report anyway (but try to find a way to reproduce first)
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20100401 21:33:55< Crab_> timotei21: ok, read your last changes
20100401 21:34:22< timotei21> ok:)
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20100401 21:35:23< Crab_> timotei21: the first thing that I want to suggest is to use eclipse terms and extension points as far as possible. e.g, instead of 'each umc project will have the following options: - apply wmlident on file(s) save : YES/NO - autorepair code with wmllint: YES/NO', you should talk about implementing several new eclipse project builders
20100401 21:36:19< timotei21> ok, I'll rephrase them. I didn't know what  degree of technical content should be put
20100401 21:36:41< Crab_> timotei21: also, instead of allowing to specify the patch to game folder, args for launching, etc, you can talk about a 'wesnoth installation' list similar to the 'list of installed application servers', since the concept is quite similar (and wesnoth is, in fact, an application server for  WML code)
20100401 21:36:45< mordante> Tesafilmchen, the more info to reproduce it the better, that's often the problem with the lobby glitches; finding a way to reproduce them after which fixing is often relatively easy
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20100401 21:37:51< Crab_> timotei21: then, just writing '- There should be a way the game could communicate with the editor, ...' is not a good thing - you should write concrete implementation plan, too. how will you do it ?
20100401 21:38:33< Crab_> timotei21: also, you should cleanly differentiate between 'new project' wizards and 'new file' wizards
20100401 21:39:19< timotei21> when I write should, I don't know if I have to implement it myself, or it would be implemented by others. In the way that I don't know if that's part of my project - so maybe you could tell me
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20100401 21:41:28< Crab_> timotei21: also, the most interesting technical questions are still unanswered. e.g., how you'll deal with the macroses in files ?
20100401 21:42:02< Crab_> timotei21: e.g., if wml schema specifies that a certain tag must be inside [scenario], but we have none because it's hidden by a macro
20100401 21:42:39< Crab_> timotei21: or, even better, how you'd select a schema to be used if the scenario header is either [scenario] or [multiplayer] depending on value of a WML preprocessor define ?
20100401 21:43:33< timotei21> well, this is a question I put myself... in the way that (please tell me if I'm not right - or not thinking good) do I need to implement for example, the macro expansion
20100401 21:43:56< timotei21> or I am supposed to relie on the implementation of "WML_DEBUGGING" project?
20100401 21:44:08< Crab_> timotei21: yes, you're thinking good. do not depend on wml_debugging project.
20100401 21:44:26< timotei21> good to know
20100401 21:44:35< Crab_> timotei21: you might come to depend on it if both projects are accepted, but for  now, don't do that.
20100401 21:44:46< timotei21> yes
20100401 21:44:50< Crab_> timotei21: also, I don't see implementation plan for most of the planned features
20100401 21:45:14< timotei21> that should be... some UML diagrams? or what?
20100401 21:45:16< Crab_> timotei21: so, to sum it up: proposal is worthly and interesting, but we need proof of concept code and concrete implementation plans
20100401 21:45:22< Crab_> timotei21: no, just text
20100401 21:46:06< timotei21> ok
20100401 21:46:12< Crab_> timotei21: you can use diagrams, but text is faster. the question is: the stated goals are worthly. how are you going to achieve them and deal with all the problems that we have?  what restrictions on wml you'd have to add ?
20100401 21:46:59< Crab_> timotei21: also, don't go for dynamic recompilation of the editor, just allow the developers to regenerate it, it'll be enought.
20100401 21:47:31< Crab_> timotei21: ... So, each time when we start the plugin, and detect a change in the "schema.cfg file (we could check that against a hash code/md5 of the file), we need to "re-generate" our "editor".... <- no need to do this (you can if you get it right, but this is not too important)
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20100401 21:48:19< timotei21> wow, that's plenty of feedback. So I will "refactor" my proposal, taking in consideration what we talked so far... and I'll tell you when I'we rewritten it.
20100401 21:48:35< Crab_> timotei21: you don't need to 'refactor' your proposal, as it's good.
20100401 21:48:50< Crab_> timotei21: what you need is to fill in the gaps.. show us 'HOW".
20100401 21:48:52< timotei21> refactor in the way, that I should add the technical+implementations plans
20100401 21:48:55< timotei21> yes
20100401 21:49:08< Crab_> timotei21: prototype code is more than welcome
20100401 21:49:10< kahowell> Hi, my name is Kevin Howell. I am a student wishing to do GSoC. I wanted to discuss the input framework rewrite, if anyone has the time.
20100401 21:49:32< Crab_> kahowell: hello! talk to mordante about this
20100401 21:49:46< timotei21> that told me fendrin, too. I gonna prototype some of the features, after I read more about the eclipse plugins
20100401 21:49:48< timotei21> ok?
20100401 21:49:56< Crab_> timotei21: ok, there's still time
20100401 21:50:42< Crab_> timotei21: note that the most problematic things are in the 'handle macroses' domain
20100401 21:50:54< Crab_> timotei21: show us how you'll deal with them.
20100401 21:50:55< timotei21> yes..
20100401 21:51:05< Crab_> note that the macroses are context-dependent
20100401 21:51:21< Crab_> e.g., the macro expansion depends on the specific state of the preprocessor 
20100401 21:51:46< Crab_> e.g., 'macro definitions in files that were processed previously'
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20100401 21:54:22< mordante> Sirp, short question regarding formula's does a formula evaluate all options at an if statement?
20100401 21:54:34< timotei21> btw, do I need to get familiar with the game engine too?
20100401 21:54:38< mordante> Sirp, since (if(percentage = 0, 0,  width * 100 / percentage)) results in a divide by zero
20100401 21:54:49< timotei21> for example, with the signaling/breakpoint thingy, do I have to implement it too?
20100401 21:54:52< Crab_> timotei21: i'd say: read how the preprocessor works
20100401 21:55:40< kahowell> So, I was wondering what had been considered for the an input rewrite (SDL?)
20100401 21:55:53< Crab_> timotei21: I'd say : you don't have time for this in your timeline.
20100401 21:56:11< timotei21> yes...
20100401 21:56:15< mordante> kahowell, what do you exactly mean with that question?
20100401 21:56:22< Sirp> mordante: ummm generally it shouldn't do that. I'm not sure why it is.
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20100401 21:57:09< Crab_> mordante: hmm, no, it shouldn't evaluate the 'else' part
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20100401 21:57:14< kahowell> I have to admit I'm not familiar with Wesnoth code (but am willing to become familiar). What libraries is the input system currently built on?
20100401 21:57:26< billynux> hi all, I'm considering applying to the network rewrite using boost::asio, I guess I should talk in private to mordante. Should I?
20100401 21:57:41< Crab_> mordante: I'm sure about that, e.g. I use things like    'if(min=0,100,(value * 100)/min)' and they work
20100401 21:58:10< Sirp> billynux: you're welcome to talk in here of it
20100401 21:58:11< kahowell> And I meant have the SDL input library functions been considered?
20100401 21:58:20< Crab_> billynux: no, talking in public generally increases your chances to get accepted, since more developers are able to see your activity.
20100401 21:58:26< billynux> all right, thanks!
20100401 21:58:53-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!]
20100401 21:58:57< mordante> kahowell, currently we use SDL and we want to keep using it, we only want to change how it's implemented
20100401 21:59:00< Crab_> billynux: generally, the first thing to do is to copy a template wiki page, answer the questions, fill in the questionnaire
20100401 21:59:01< billynux> ok, I am familiar with the workings of boost::asio, and coded a simple communication layer using it for my thesis! see fud.googlecode.com
20100401 21:59:08< mordante> kahowell, are you familiar with SDL?
20100401 21:59:18< kahowell> Okay. Yes, I am very familiar with SDL.
20100401 21:59:31< billynux> thanks Crab, I was about to do that, I actually wanted to look at the existing code first
20100401 21:59:46< billynux> so as not to leave an empty proposition for the time being
20100401 22:00:05< Sirp> billynux: so how familiar are you with networking technologies in general, and with C++?
20100401 22:00:06< Crab_> billynux: ok. existing code uses sdl.net
20100401 22:00:41< billynux> yes, both
20100401 22:00:41< kahowell> So, I guess the input framework rewrite is more about integrated gamepads, etc. into the works?
20100401 22:00:43< mordante> kahowell, ok good, then about what we want to change
20100401 22:00:50< billynux> although I'm not good at SDL
20100401 22:01:08< mordante> kahowell, at the moment some parts of the code directly use the SDL events to perform actions
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20100401 22:01:14< billynux> I simply started using boost::asio from the get-go
20100401 22:01:17-!- Zarle is now known as Zarel
20100401 22:01:21< Crab_> billynux: well, you'd only have to read it, since the point is 'rewrite' :)
20100401 22:01:38< billynux> yeah.. exactly
20100401 22:01:46< mordante> kahowell, other parts use an abstraction layer, the goal of the project is to provide an abstraction layer for all the SDL code
20100401 22:02:10< billynux> all right, should I 1. Fill out the online form and 2. Check out the code and start figuring the implementation timeline?
20100401 22:02:17< billynux> or should I do 2 first? :)
20100401 22:02:24< mordante> kahowell, and thus allowing other input devices (or more general other devices) to configure their method of input
20100401 22:02:56< Crab_> billynux: check out the code, and while it is downloaded, fill out the form and answer a few questions from http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Network_Stack_Rewrite page
20100401 22:03:03< mordante> kahowell, this in order to allow things like phones, game consoles etc to be easier used in Wesnoth
20100401 22:03:09< kahowell> mordante: Also, when we want to port to a platform for which SDL is unavailable or non-free, this would be essential, correct?
20100401 22:03:24< billynux> all right, thanks Crab, I'll do that... a popular theme that rewrite I see :P
20100401 22:03:53< Crab_> billynux: no, not most popular.
20100401 22:03:58< mordante> kahowell, yes only the person wanting to use it needs to compile him/herself 
20100401 22:04:19< Crab_> billynux: but you need to be active to 'catch up' :)
20100401 22:04:25< timotei21> ok crab_, so I'm gonna go, we'll talk next days
20100401 22:04:33< Crab_> timotei21: good luck
20100401 22:04:33< timotei21> thanks a lot for feedback:)
20100401 22:04:39< billynux> I know... I'm starting a little late
20100401 22:04:39< mordante> but not sure whether SDL is going the paid route or not, only heard the rumours
20100401 22:05:00< Crab_> timotei21: also consider the 'how your project will be tested, packaged, and deployed to users?' question
20100401 22:05:31< timotei21> tested by users? or using unit tests
20100401 22:05:55< Crab_> timotei21: unit tests, integration tests..
20100401 22:06:04< timotei21> the part with deploying, will be simple copy/paste or the jar archives.
20100401 22:06:09< timotei21> ok, I'll think about ti
20100401 22:06:23< Crab_> timotei21: we might need to set up a 'eclipse update site'
20100401 22:06:39< timotei21> that would be an alternative
20100401 22:07:04< Crab_> timotei21: to automatically deploy new versions on that site, we need to use a suitable buildsystem for our eclipse projects, which allows us to make distributions without human intervention
20100401 22:07:08< fabi> We need a ready to go eclipse package.
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20100401 22:07:36< kahowell> mordante: Okay, are there any examples of input libraries besides SDL that I should look into?
20100401 22:07:49< Crab_> fabi: yes, a good idea. but w.o cannot host it.
20100401 22:07:54< Crab_> bandwidth...
20100401 22:08:14< Crab_> fabi: maybe, on sf ?
20100401 22:08:32< fabi> Yeah
20100401 22:08:33< mordante> kahowell, no since we don't want to abandon SDL
20100401 22:08:49< fabi> But I don't believe it well get that much downloads. 
20100401 22:08:55< mordante> kahowell, we just want to change how we implemented SDL inside Wesnoth
20100401 22:09:10< fabi> Let it be 50 uml authors who will use it at the end.
20100401 22:09:32< Crab_> fabi: and many more who try but don't use, but still use bandwidth
20100401 22:09:54< zookeeper> mordante, btw, could you (when you have time) implement a unique error message for when one tries to start a scenario with _no_ map at all, not just a map without a header
20100401 22:09:56< zookeeper> ?
20100401 22:10:23< zookeeper> seems newbies often get confused and assume there's something wrong with their map, when in reality they just botched up their map include path..
20100401 22:10:37< heltonduarte> Crab_: I'm reading the SVN book (since I've never used it), after that I'll try to compile the source code and read some parts about the input system (my application idea), during the download I'll try to make my wiki page...am I doing the process in the right way?
20100401 22:10:54< Crab_> heltonduarte: yes, good enough :)
20100401 22:11:11< Crab_> heltonduarte: you have until 9th to submit a proposal to google, so there's time to investigate :)
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20100401 22:12:04< heltonduarte> Crab_: initially, should I just read the "Fundamental Concepts" and "Basic Usage" about SVN, right?
20100401 22:12:54< Crab_> heltonduarte: if you're used any other version control systems before, you can just get a cookbook (short usage guide for common operations)
20100401 22:13:05< Crab_> heltonduarte: but, if no, reading fundamental concepts is a good idea
20100401 22:13:23< heltonduarte> Crab_: ok, thanks
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20100401 22:14:00< Crab_> heltonduarte: I suggest you to create a local svn repository on your file system, and spend an hour or two to play with it
20100401 22:14:11< timotei21> ok, good night everyone
20100401 22:14:29< Crab_> heltonduarte: this way, you'll be confident with basic usage. and it'll be definitely useful to you later :)
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20100401 22:15:04< silene> zookeeper: note that the message is already there, it's just that nobody ever reads the error log
20100401 22:15:45< heltonduarte> Crab_: ok, and I can also try to make some implementations with SDL and its input system to learn more about it
20100401 22:15:56< Crab_> heltonduarte: good :)
20100401 22:16:04< kahowell> mordante: I read the wiki page more closely, and will probably look at the code to get a better idea of what's wanted. I've got an appointment to keep. Thanks for the info.
20100401 22:16:28< zookeeper> silene, really? oh well, i think it's pretty confusing that some errors pop up an error dialog and some just silently appear in stderr.
20100401 22:16:34< mordante> kahowell, ok if you have more concrete questions feel free to ask them
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20100401 22:17:36< silene> zookeeper: the reason for them to be silent is that almost no umc campaign would start if they were hard errors (though i woudn't mind to make them hard error for 1.9/1.10 so that this issue is finally solved)
20100401 22:18:05< zookeeper> silene, that doesn't apply to this particular one though
20100401 22:19:14< silene> zookeeper: no the first error is silent, but since the engine keeps going, it causes a second error, that is, a garbled map
20100401 22:19:54< silene> for the engine, there is an actual map; the engine has no way to guess that what it thinks is the map is the consequence of another error
20100401 22:20:08< zookeeper> silene, why does it keep going? i don't know which one is the first, but they seem both fatal to me
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20100401 22:20:45< silene> zookeeper: the first one is "file/macro not found", and as i said, if it is made fatal, almost all the umc campaigns will stop working
20100401 22:21:22< zookeeper> no no no, that's not what i was talking about
20100401 22:22:17< zookeeper> if you have a case of "file/macro not found" then you have no map at all
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20100401 22:22:40< silene> zookeeper: you are wrong, there is something, it just happens to not be a map
20100401 22:22:51< zookeeper> uh, what is that something then?
20100401 22:22:55< zookeeper> an empty string?
20100401 22:22:56< silene> garbage
20100401 22:23:24< silene> more precisely, garbage that allows the engine to keep processing the input files
20100401 22:23:53< zookeeper> i don't get it
20100401 22:23:56< zookeeper> let's say i have map_data="{~invalidpathto.map}"
20100401 22:24:07< zookeeper> you're saying that expands to map_data="somegarbage"?
20100401 22:24:53< silene> it expands to map_data="dummy=~invalidpathto.map"
20100401 22:25:30< zookeeper> wtf... O.o
20100401 22:25:41 * zookeeper blinks a couple more times
20100401 22:29:55< AI0867> er, why?
20100401 22:30:11< zookeeper> because i've never seen anything like that
20100401 22:30:13< shadowmaster> maybe I should have saved silene's explanation
20100401 22:30:33< AI0867> zookeeper: yes, I was wondering why it does that
20100401 22:30:35< silene> AI0867: because it allows umc campaigns to start
20100401 22:30:53< AI0867> silene: why not expand to an empty string instead?
20100401 22:31:07< zookeeper> silene, sorry for asking, but are you really completely sure about that? all that sounds completely bizarre to me.
20100401 22:31:25< silene> AI0867: that doesn't work for: bli=a+{B}
20100401 22:31:46< silene> zookeeper: add a [message] with a broken message in a test scenario and test it for yourself
20100401 22:32:16< silene> AI0867: more precisely, that doesn't work for: [t]bli=a+{B}[/t]
20100401 22:32:20< zookeeper> i will..
20100401 22:34:53< zookeeper> silene, goodness' sake, you're right
20100401 22:39:13< Gambit> it seems there are a lot of bug with the new lobby (or so some guy says). would you prefer the Bug tracker be spammed with a bunch of reports, or just compile them all in a forum thread?
20100401 22:39:56< silene> Gambit: the bug tracker, always
20100401 22:40:04< zookeeper> silene, would it be easy to make bli=a+{B} work even if {B} expands to empty?
20100401 22:40:05< Crab_> Gambit: i'd say 'spam the bug tracker, unless the bug is a clear duplicate, in which case add a 'me too' note to the existing bug'
20100401 22:40:38< mordante> Gambit, like the other said, tracking bugs in the forum is a sure way to forget them
20100401 22:40:48< Gambit> kk. I'm just not sure some people will use the tracker.
20100401 22:41:05< silene> zookeeper: what about {B}=a?
20100401 22:42:03< silene> as i said, i'm all for just making these errors fatal; just because we have allowd it for 5 years doesn't mean we have to keep going
20100401 22:42:41< mordante> Gambit, the devs do
20100401 22:42:43< zookeeper> silene, sounds perfectly fine to make that fatal
20100401 22:42:47< silene> and now that 1.8 is out and 1.9 not yet released is a good time
20100401 22:43:18< zookeeper> silene, i've always worked under the assumption that invalid macro calls or file includes expand to empty
20100401 22:43:30< Gambit> Stuff randomly resizing itself is the big problem.
20100401 22:44:56< shadowmaster> what do you want to make fatal?
20100401 22:45:26< silene> shadowmaster: all the missing file/macro errors
20100401 22:45:37< zookeeper> how would that happen?
20100401 22:45:53< silene> what do you mean?
20100401 22:46:09< shadowmaster> uh.
20100401 22:46:37< zookeeper> well, if a broken call expands to empty, then why would that be fatal unless it leads to invalid syntax (like <empty>=foo)?
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20100401 22:46:44< shadowmaster> I don't like the idea of having my add-ons stop working only because some random crazy dev renamed a minor macro from mainline or any other dependency
20100401 22:46:57< shadowmaster> but yeah... :|
20100401 22:47:15-!- mjs-de [~mjs-de@p3EE248A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100401 22:47:22< shadowmaster> ...why doesn't the MP lobby have tab completion? dammit
20100401 22:48:18< silene> zookeeper: either the error is fatal or it isn't; having it sometimes fatal and sometimes silent will just be even more confusing than it already is
20100401 22:48:33< shadowmaster> and again, why does the scrollbars+scrollwheel interaction work in the same dumb way as Windows does?
20100401 22:48:40< shadowmaster> ilor: ^ 
20100401 22:49:24< shadowmaster> I have to click/focus the widget with scrollbars if I want to use the mouse (touchpad) scrollwheel (scrolling area) on it
20100401 22:50:14< ilor> shadowmaster: tab completion is MIA, I plan to readd it soonish
20100401 22:50:49< ilor> shadowmaster: and scrollwheel behavior is a gui2 issue, so you'll have to bug mordante about it
20100401 22:50:53< shadowmaster> bleh, and people chatting sometimes make the messages list jump back at the top
20100401 22:50:57< shadowmaster> *makes
20100401 22:52:03< zookeeper> silene, well, i don't know about that
20100401 22:52:18< ilor> shadowmaster: generally I won't have much productive time during the next few days so bugs and general lobby usability issues are best put into the bugtracker
20100401 22:52:35< zookeeper> i sure wouldn't want to not be able to write some placeholder includes or such
20100401 22:52:37< mordante> shadowmaster, that's the designed behaviour
20100401 22:52:37< shadowmaster> well, Gambit can do that
20100401 22:52:48< ilor> there's already a fair bit of them and I will be working on improving thing when I have the time
20100401 22:52:55< shadowmaster> mordante: you've got to be kidding me :|
20100401 22:53:05< mordante> I'm not
20100401 22:53:11< shadowmaster> that's exactly one of the things I hate when I have to use Windows again: that I have to focus on widgets to use the scrollwheel
20100401 22:53:23< shadowmaster> *listview and treeview widgets
20100401 22:53:56< Crab_> Darkas: about recruitment and 'as far as I can see, it seems rather simple to do that' - you know, it's bigger that one can expect - for example last summer DK spent half of GSoC doing changes to formula ai recruitment (successfully, bug the code doesn't work everywhere) ;)
20100401 22:53:59< shadowmaster> I was hoping that Wesnoth would then stick to the Gtk/Qt ways
20100401 22:54:06< mordante> then again, I'm no fan of a scrollwheel at all so don't care too much, will post to the dev-ml to see what's sane
20100401 22:54:34< mordante> I don't use the wheel ;-)
20100401 22:54:51< shadowmaster> you're missing a great deal of usability improvements.
20100401 22:55:03< AI0867> silene: usecase for non-fatality: checking whether other add-ons are installed
20100401 22:55:39< zookeeper> true
20100401 22:55:43< AI0867> this is done in EE, EoM, EoS and probably other eras to see whether aggregate eras should be generated
20100401 22:56:32< shadowmaster> AI0867: that cannot be done with #ifdef/#ifndef?
20100401 22:56:41< shadowmaster> *can't that
20100401 22:57:18< zookeeper> maybe, but i still don't see why it should intentionally be made fatal
20100401 22:57:46< AI0867> shadowmaster: ifdef what? a path?
20100401 22:58:11< AI0867> the method is including a file of another add-on, then checking whether some macro was defined
20100401 22:58:22< shadowmaster> right.
20100401 23:01:37< silene> zookeeper: so that the real error message is displayed and not one about a missing map or something
20100401 23:01:44< mordante> shadowmaster, no I'm not when I use a scrollwheel I feel my wrist pretty fast, besides I use the keyboard for most things
20100401 23:02:34< shadowmaster> it's not easy to draw on the GIMP with the keyboard
20100401 23:02:48-!- heltonduarte [~heltondua@189.124.191.252] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100401 23:04:04< mordante> correction:  it's not easy to draw on the GIMP ;-)
20100401 23:04:17< Gambit> shadowmaster: What can I do?
20100401 23:04:20-!- grzywacz [~grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100401 23:04:24< mordante> anyway I'm off night
20100401 23:04:40-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100401 23:05:11< shadowmaster> Gambit: well, help report bugs?
20100401 23:05:21< shadowmaster> I don't play MP so I'm notthe best person to hel with that
20100401 23:05:25< Gambit> Oh yeah. I'z in ur lobby. Makkin a list.
20100401 23:05:36< shadowmaster> Gambit: preferably file them as separate bugs, btw
20100401 23:05:42< Gambit> Okay.
20100401 23:05:46< shadowmaster> single bug reports addressing multiple issues are annoying.
20100401 23:06:37< Gambit> People didn't have much to say when asked if they'd noticed anything :\
20100401 23:06:49< shadowmaster> for example "lobby doesn't work right" "* there's screen corruption * scrollwheel doesn't work * consumes too much memory" would be a bad bug report
20100401 23:07:02< shadowmaster> not only because of the obvious content issues, but becuse it addresses three different issues
20100401 23:07:16< shadowmaster> obviously unrelated issues
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20100401 23:07:31< Gambit> What do you dislike about the scroll wheel?
20100401 23:07:41< Gambit> It doesn't change focus on hover, it changes on click?
20100401 23:08:19< zookeeper> silene, sure, except that it's not always a real error
20100401 23:08:30< zookeeper> a missing file isn't a real error, a missing map is
20100401 23:09:08< shadowmaster> Gambit: the scrollwheel is not the problem. The scroll list widgets are.
20100401 23:09:16< shadowmaster> they don't react to the scrollwheel unless focues.
20100401 23:09:20< shadowmaster> *focused
20100401 23:09:41< silene> zookeeper: i'm not sure to follow, why shouldn't a missing file not be an error?
20100401 23:09:43< shadowmaster> note that in Gtk and Qt, they do react to the scrllwheel when not focused, and the focus does not change with the scrollwheel actions
20100401 23:09:57< Gambit> So making the focus change on mouse hover would fix that.
20100401 23:10:00< shadowmaster> er, well, apparently it does in Qt, not Gtk
20100401 23:10:22< shadowmaster> but mordante doesn't consider that a bug, so I'll have to wait until he posts in the ML to complain
20100401 23:10:32< Gambit> rofl
20100401 23:10:42< shadowmaster> I don't see what's so funny.
20100401 23:10:49< zookeeper> silene, well, simply because i might want to use placeholder includes before the file is actually there or because i'm trying to include something entirely optional from another add-on or do something else like that
20100401 23:11:01< Gambit> Well I had an issue the other day he didn't consider to be a bug :(
20100401 23:11:18< shadowmaster> oh gods, this is even worse
20100401 23:11:33< Gambit> Besdies there's nothing wrong with random rofling :P
20100401 23:11:34< shadowmaster> the scrollwheel changes the list view when focused, even when the mouse is not directly over it
20100401 23:11:47 * shadowmaster *facepalm*
20100401 23:12:16< silene> zookeeper: you do understand that the situation won't change then?
20100401 23:12:20< Gambit> Also you can't select/copy text in the new one :(
20100401 23:12:23< shadowmaster> I should point out that I had complained about the Windows vs. Gtk/Qt scrollwheel behavior some dev versions ago.
20100401 23:12:43< Gambit> You couldn't copy text on the old one on windows.
20100401 23:12:46< shadowmaster> but I didn't notice that focus == scrollwheel works regardless of pointer position
20100401 23:12:49< Gambit> But now you can't select text at all.
20100401 23:13:04< zookeeper> silene, err...i don't
20100401 23:13:37< silene> zookeeper: you just gave a reason for not changing the current behavior: people rely on it
20100401 23:14:07< zookeeper> silene, you lost me again. what relies on it?
20100401 23:14:25< silene> zookeeper: you, "i might want to use placeholder includes before the file is actually there"
20100401 23:14:53< zookeeper> changing the current behaviour by expanding to empty wouldn't change that
20100401 23:15:24< silene> zookeeper: yes it would, there are situations where umc currently load and then would no longer after the change
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20100401 23:16:10< zookeeper> could you give an example?
20100401 23:16:40< zookeeper> i mean a fictional one is fine
20100401 23:17:23< gabba> hi
20100401 23:17:28< shadowmaster> hi there
20100401 23:17:48< silene> zookeeper: something like {{A}}
20100401 23:18:30< zookeeper> but that's madness :P
20100401 23:18:59< zookeeper> ok, so how exactly would that not load after the change?
20100401 23:19:17< zookeeper> if {A} expands to empty then we have {} which would also presumably expand to empty, no?
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20100401 23:36:24< endercoaster> hmm... I think I have at least the start to adding support for victory_when_enemies_defeated_ to multiplayer, but part of me is saying "there's no way it's that simple"
20100401 23:36:50< endercoaster> Would somebody mind talking through what I have with me to dispel (or confirm) that worry?
20100401 23:39:54< pokhbocee> Crab_:  i have submitted the patch, until you suggest me a new idea to implement. ill try to find smth or keep implementing other functions
20100401 23:40:23< pokhbocee> Crab_: here is the patch :  https://gna.org/patch/index.php?1577
20100401 23:40:59< ancestral> endercoaster: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15686
20100401 23:41:31< ancestral> Related?
20100401 23:42:00< endercoaster> ancestral: more going for http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding#Support_for_leaderless_multiplayergames
20100401 23:48:14< endercoaster> How is victory defeated in (obviously at the moment single player) scenarios where victory_when_enemies_defeated_ isn't set to true
20100401 23:48:51< shadowmaster> endercoaster: victory can't be achieved unless an event in WML can use the [endlevel] statement
20100401 23:48:57< shadowmaster> *uses
20100401 23:49:10< shadowmaster> that means that victory conditions in such kind of scenarios are up to the WML coder
20100401 23:49:52< Gambit> Okay I am confused still
20100401 23:50:02< Gambit> victory_when_enemies_defeated=no *does* work in multiplayer :\
20100401 23:50:43< endercoaster> Gambit: it's possible that it's been corrected and is just still on the easy coding page and feature request list
20100401 23:51:00< Gambit> Yeah; that's out of date then.
20100401 23:51:17< Gambit> What we need is a defeat_when_leader_killed keyword.
20100401 23:51:18< billynux> All right, I'm back. Although I don't see the people that was here before. I concluded the Wiki page with the questionnaire and I'm downloading the code right now.
20100401 23:52:27< endercoaster> or I'm misunderstanding what I need to change and what I actually need to change is: "(Currently this only controls the win condition for when all enemies are defeated; it does not prevent the player from losing if he has no leader.)" - from the wiki's description of victory_when_enemies_defeated_
20100401 23:53:20< endercoaster> either that or the issue's completely resolved and the wiki is out of date. I haven't played any multiplayer yet.
20100401 23:56:28< Gambit> Exactly.
20100401 23:56:45< Gambit> It prevents you from winning automatically just from killing all the other leaders.
20100401 23:56:48< Gambit> Works in SP and MP.
20100401 23:57:07< Gambit> What we need now is something that prevents you from losing automatically just because your leader died.
20100401 23:57:26< endercoaster> alright
20100401 23:57:43< endercoaster> well, I've been barking up the wrong tree then
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20100401 23:58:31< Gambit> Yeah looks like the wishlist's not been kept up to date.
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20100401 23:59:48< ancestral> Gambit, are you on the server?
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 02 00:00:57 2010