--- Log opened Fri Apr 02 00:00:57 2010
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20100402 00:02:08< Gambit> no
20100402 00:02:43< Gambit> why?
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20100402 00:03:47< ancestral> Okay, no biggie
20100402 00:05:15< Gambit> ancestral: Might want to report that...
20100402 00:05:22< Gambit> the mac lobby looks way different :s
20100402 00:05:32< Gambit> OH the game creation page?
20100402 00:05:42< Gambit> Weird.
20100402 00:05:51< ancestral> Works in the game creation page
20100402 00:06:00< ancestral> Maybe because the widgets are different?
20100402 00:06:04< Gambit> yeah.
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20100402 00:08:17< silene> let's try for a bit to display preprocessor error messages
20100402 00:08:24< CIA-64> silene * r41923 /trunk/src/serialization/preprocessor.cpp: Made missing file/macro behave like the other preprocessor errors.
20100402 00:08:33< CIA-64> silene * r41924 /trunk/src/serialization/ (tokenizer.cpp tokenizer.hpp): Avoided discarding preprocessor errors.
20100402 00:08:35< CIA-64> silene * r41925 /trunk/src/game.cpp: Prevented aborting the game on broken input files.
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20100402 00:22:47< Ivanovic> great to finally see sirp describe things just like they are... http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=419012#p419012
20100402 00:23:14< Ivanovic> our ai is stronger than any ai before, it is even able to cheat though there is no code path for it which would allow this
20100402 00:23:20< Ivanovic> skynet was yesterday
20100402 00:23:26< Ivanovic> wesnoth ai will soon rule the world!
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20100402 00:34:47< endercoaster> That thread is awesome
20100402 00:35:06< Ivanovic> yes, really lovely
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20100402 00:38:44< kahowell> Hi. I was chatting with mordante earlier about the input system rewrite. He doesn't seem to be on at the moment though. Is anyone else familiar enough with it to discuss it with me?
20100402 00:39:05< Ivanovic> kahowell: no idea, you could just post your ideas and wait for a reply though
20100402 00:39:19< Ivanovic> at least mordante tends to read the backlogs, so he will answer tomorrow
20100402 00:39:57< kahowell> Okay. Perhaps someone else could answer this though... What would be the best place to look in the source to get a feel for what needs to be done for the rewrite?
20100402 00:41:36< Ivanovic> maybe ilor has an idea, since he had some contact with gui2 while rewriting the mp lobby, not sure though
20100402 00:41:50< Ivanovic> in general: no idea if someone is around at the moment who can directly help you
20100402 00:42:00< Ivanovic> and i am off to bed now, n8
20100402 00:42:18< kahowell> Night. Thanks.
20100402 00:43:22< kahowell> Or how about this question: if I wanted to work on the input system even if I didn't get into GSoC, if someone else got accepted into GSoC with the input system rewrite as their project, would this mean no-one else should work on that code.
20100402 00:43:52< kahowell> Or even in the more general case, are we supposed to avoid coding for others GSoC projects?
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20100402 00:45:45< Ivanovic> in general developers are meant to coordinate their efforts
20100402 00:45:55< Ivanovic> two people working on exactly the same thing is difficult to do
20100402 00:46:20< Ivanovic> though in general, even without SoC, you are of course free to work on what you would like to do
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20100402 00:48:07< Ivanovic> and if you look at the amount of project ideas we posted this year and compare it with the amount of slots we will go for (something like 3 or 4) it should become clear that we won't have one student per project idea
20100402 00:48:46< Ivanovic> so even if there eg were 10 people proposing something for the input system that does not mean that one of them will be selected and work on it
20100402 00:49:00< Ivanovic> it all depends on the mixture of the proposal and the student
20100402 00:49:29< Ivanovic> at the moment nothing is really sure beside that we will most likely have more proposals (students wanting to work with us over SoC) than we got mentors
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20100402 00:49:55< kahowell> Okay. I think I've decided that if I don't do GSoC, I may try to do some "unselected" project...
20100402 00:50:02< Ivanovic> (that is a given constraint with some 4000 students applying to SoC every year and overall only some 1000 being accepted due to limits of the program)
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20100402 00:50:08< Ivanovic> kahowell: cool!
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20100402 00:50:40< Ivanovic> okay, really off now, n8
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20100402 00:50:51< kahowell> Thanks again.
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20100402 01:19:49< fakedrake_> what does #line in wml do?
20100402 01:21:56< UnknownDevice> Hi all
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20100402 01:25:14< fakedrake_> hi
20100402 01:26:46< Gambit> Since the WML helpline is a paid service, will you be hiring people to work in it? :)
20100402 01:27:54< ancestral> Nice
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20100402 01:39:48< fabi> okay, doubling or tribling the weapons strikes works as well.
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20100402 01:49:54< fabi> What else do I need to double or triple beside HP, attacks poison and healing?
20100402 01:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 77 bugs, 256 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100402 01:51:22< Sirp> Gambit: actually you get random number credits
20100402 01:51:30< Sirp> every call answered gives you 1000 random numbers.
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20100402 01:55:04< Gambit> fabi: Resting
20100402 01:55:19< Gambit> the WML heal_units
20100402 01:55:25< ancestral> Sirp: Very handy for the iPhone version
20100402 01:55:26< fabi> Gambit, right, thank you.
20100402 01:55:33< Gambit> I think there's a [heal_unit] tag anyway...
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20100402 01:56:29< fabi> Gambit, hmmm, maybe but I am messing in the c++ internals... I don't think that wml coding gives me any advantage.
20100402 01:57:06< Gambit> I meant the tag should be affected by the multiplier.
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20100402 01:57:39< Gambit> Obviously anything that relies on variables or [effect] would be broken by this.
20100402 01:57:52< Gambit> But [heal_unit] should be okay.
20100402 01:59:55< fabi> Gambit, I think most of that can be repaired.
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20100402 02:08:52< pokhbocee> what is shroud?
20100402 02:09:34< AI0867> the black stuff that covers the part of the map that you haven't explored yet
20100402 02:11:43< pokhbocee> ty
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20100402 02:56:37< fabi> Gambit, It works. Healing and poison.
20100402 02:56:51< fabi> Resting
20100402 03:08:28< gabba> lol, the irc log from today is both insane and funny
20100402 03:09:13< gabba> Sirp: I'm interested by this barbecue... um, grilling idea
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20100402 03:34:35< Zarel> ...
20100402 03:34:54< Zarel> How can there be so many people who know what April Fool's Day is, and still can't tell which threads are jokes?
20100402 03:36:14< ancestral> Sometimes I forget that there are people who are 12 years old on the forums
20100402 03:36:41< ancestral> Sometimes I forget that there are people who are much older but who act like their younger than 12 years old on the forums
20100402 03:36:47< ancestral> *they're
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20100402 03:39:42< Zarel> Ivanovic: Did you, by any chance, configure the server to serve incorrect random numbers?
20100402 03:39:54< Zarel> Because from the looks of your posts, that's what happened.
20100402 03:40:09< Zarel> It would be hilarious if you did.
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20100402 03:58:14< ancestral> Actually, what would be great
20100402 03:58:28< ancestral> Is if the time of day actually reflected your time of day
20100402 03:58:54< ancestral> So if I'm playing and it's 8:58 PM then my units are at first watch, for example
20100402 03:59:17< ancestral> And if my game only takes 20 minutes, then they're at first watch the entire game.
20100402 03:59:25< ancestral> My loss if I chose Loyalists.
20100402 04:03:25< fabi> Sirp, what is your opinion about my luck patching attempt?
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20100402 04:04:14< shadowmaster> luck patching? what did you do to God's creation?!
20100402 04:04:29< shadowmaster> you cannot just patch the universe and get away with it!
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20100402 04:06:34< fabi> shadowmaster, not?
20100402 04:07:11< shadowmaster> nope
20100402 04:07:21< fabi> shadowmaster, it's a nice little patch that introduces a new slider to the game creation dialoge.
20100402 04:07:31< shadowmaster> ahhh.. the game. That's okay...hopefully.
20100402 04:07:53< fabi> That slider doubles or triples the hp/number of attacks/healing/poison
20100402 04:08:19< shadowmaster> that...is not MP-safe, is it? :|
20100402 04:08:33< fabi> Why should it not be MP-safe?
20100402 04:09:08< shadowmaster> okay, never mind.
20100402 04:09:10< fabi> I followed the code path of the xp modifier. If the xp modifier is MP-safe then it is.
20100402 04:09:46-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100402 04:09:48< fabi> While staying mostly in balance the attack results will become more predictable.
20100402 04:10:23-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20100402 04:10:25< fabi> And we can get rid of all that luck haters and point them to the slider.
20100402 04:10:58< gabba> fabi: interesting attempt, I think it's worth the try
20100402 04:13:06< gabba> however what annoys me sometimes (I'm not a luck hater), is not so much the luck but the fact you have little means to tweak it in your favor
20100402 04:13:25< gabba> except stuff like magic and marksman
20100402 04:13:57< gabba> I don't think Wesnoth wants to follow that path since it aims for simplicity,
20100402 04:15:02< fabi> gabba: What tweaks do you have in mind?
20100402 04:15:03< shadowmaster> I think the luck haters should all shut the fuck up, seriously.
20100402 04:15:07< gabba> but in many wargames that involves randomness, you can make a plan that stacks odds so high in your favor that you have 95% chance to do at least some damage
20100402 04:15:26< shadowmaster> the only reason I don't silence them is that they ar usually newbies.
20100402 04:15:28< shadowmaster> *are
20100402 04:15:39< gabba> shadowmaster: yeah, some of them get really agressive
20100402 04:16:10< shadowmaster> and since they are newbies, it's understandable that they may have false expectations from the game...or not know how to search the forums
20100402 04:16:16< Gambit> Its your party and you'll have luck if you want to.
20100402 04:16:20< fabi> shadowmaster, I am not a luck hater either. But some of them are long players. And I see the slider being a nice solution that could work.
20100402 04:16:20< shadowmaster> (even I forget how to search the forums anyway)
20100402 04:18:19< fabi> Gambit, Well there is still much luck involved, It's just not that likely any more to get the border results.
20100402 04:18:35< Gambit> I know.
20100402 04:18:50< Gambit> I basically suggested what you're doing a few days ago.
20100402 04:19:04< fabi> Yes, I have the idea from the forum.
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20100402 04:19:38< crimson_penguin> loonycyborg: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=419060#p419060
20100402 04:19:43< fabi> The solution is good, it's still in the mood of wesnoth.
20100402 04:21:38< gabba> fabi: about tweaks: well, if Wesnoth had stuff like wounded/encircled units being easier to hit, modifiers for the terrain you're attacking *from*, and other odds-altering modifier, you could basically beat the RNG with your master plan (sometimes but not always)
20100402 04:21:48< gabba> Not to say I don't like the game as is.
20100402 04:22:55< Gambit> There's still just as much randomness.
20100402 04:23:13< Gambit> "wounded/encircled units being easier to hit"
20100402 04:23:18< Gambit> Just like in water?
20100402 04:23:29< Gambit> You can have 4 straight misses on a unit in water.
20100402 04:23:41< Gambit> Nothing will make those people happy.
20100402 04:23:53< Gambit> They've got a patch that does exactly whey they've always wanted.
20100402 04:23:54< fabi> gabba, I think most of that is codeable in wml. Would make a fine era.
20100402 04:24:12< Gambit> And a Developer made addon for a happy medium between no luck and current luck.
20100402 04:24:13< gabba> Gambit: not really, because you'd be able to stack the odds to 99% for critical attacks, like the dwarf in mountains who blocks your entire army from advancing
20100402 04:24:29< Gambit> And now they complain that the patches were not included in mainline.
20100402 04:24:52< gabba> Gambit: of course there's still a bit of luck in wargames that work like that, otherwise it's not fun
20100402 04:24:56< Gambit> gabba: That'd require massive rebalancing.
20100402 04:25:05< Gambit> There is luck in everything.
20100402 04:25:12< Gambit> Every video game.
20100402 04:25:42< ancestral> In some games, luck is an ability score!
20100402 04:25:49< Gambit> lol
20100402 04:26:08< gabba> I'm not really proposing that, just saying what would make the game subjectively more fun *for me*,  *sometimes*
20100402 04:26:31< gabba> there's luck in life...
20100402 04:26:43< Gambit> Would definitly expand the tactics and amount of consideration you must take.
20100402 04:27:21< Gambit> Would make a cool add-on.
20100402 04:27:26< gabba> fabi: "gabba, I think most of that is codeable in wml. Would make a fine era." -- Why not, once I'm done with the GSoC :P
20100402 04:27:38< gabba> but the massive rebalancing is scary
20100402 04:27:48< Gambit> Yay a GSoC student who will become a UMC dev.
20100402 04:28:25< Gambit> You'll start using WML and want it to be more powerful. And you have the ability to make it so. :D
20100402 04:29:14< shadowmaster> whatever you do, please don't join Gambit's sect.
20100402 04:29:23< Gambit> The Options Are Good cult.
20100402 04:29:38< gabba> Gambit: What's your sect, how do I join :P ?
20100402 04:29:38< shadowmaster> join the Coordinated Wesnoth User Made Content Development Project With SVN instead, where we know what WML really is and what its limitations are.
20100402 04:29:43< shadowmaster> :(
20100402 04:29:52< Gambit> "The wounded units are easier to hit" part would be an easy weapon special.
20100402 04:30:04< Gambit> "Encircled units" would be a modifed backstab.
20100402 04:30:34< Gambit> "Attacking from terrain bonuses" might require some actual work though...
20100402 04:30:47< fabi> Gambit, Where is your forum post suggesting the slider?
20100402 04:31:14< Gambit> Well my suggestion was an era that included an on_recruit even that multiplied HP and strikes by 100.
20100402 04:31:48< gabba> shadowmaster: don't worry, the CWUMCDP sounds attractive too ;)
20100402 04:31:59< fabi> Gambit, You want to watch 800 strikes and more?
20100402 04:32:06< Gambit> :)
20100402 04:32:16< Gambit> gabba: My sect is the Anti-KISS one.
20100402 04:32:37< Gambit> You have to make the biggest complicated mess you can.
20100402 04:32:48< Gambit> And if it doesn't require at least one absurd feature request; you're not doing it right.
20100402 04:32:52< Gambit> fabi: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=418439#p418439
20100402 04:33:20< gabba> Gambit: you sensed a disturbance in the force (too much KISS) and set forward to bring back equilibrium?
20100402 04:33:30< Gambit> gabba: Attempting to circumvent wesnoth security features is also a plus. :)
20100402 04:33:34< gabba> lol
20100402 04:33:42< shadowmaster> grr
20100402 04:33:51< fabi> Damn, just implemented a bad april first joke.
20100402 04:33:51 * shadowmaster throws sharp stuff at Gambit 
20100402 04:34:19< Gambit> Why shouldn't wesnoth be able to load webpages? :P
20100402 04:35:52< fabi> Gambit, As the inventor of the endless battle I will provide you a version that can do 100 times more attacks.
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20100402 04:36:16< Gambit> lol just imagine a berserker fight.
20100402 04:36:36< Gambit> Or those bosses in Survival extreme with 100 strikes.
20100402 04:37:12< fabi> Well maybe it has it's own aesthetic I don't get right now.
20100402 04:37:55< Gambit> Well fabi at 400 strikes (for the average unit) 70% defense really would mean 30% hits. Guarenteed or your money back.
20100402 04:38:05< Gambit> ^^^ someone should say that about the wesnoth premium RNG :P
20100402 04:39:14< fabi> What is more of a concern, should I modify it to take percentage values like the xp slider?
20100402 04:39:31< Gambit> No.
20100402 04:39:38< Gambit> You're multiplying by a number.
20100402 04:39:54< fabi> Just double and triple for the non gambit version?
20100402 04:40:00< Gambit> That makes more sense than "400%" less luck.
20100402 04:40:53< Gambit> Also we'll be able to set the default value for this slider in WML right?
20100402 04:41:10< fabi> Yes, that should work already.
20100402 04:41:24< ancestral> So people who use iTunes frequently complained that random wasn't random enough
20100402 04:42:01< ancestral> What they really wanted was random that was more different song to song
20100402 04:42:10< ancestral> So Apple implemented a slider
20100402 04:43:02< ancestral> Which I think they since removed…
20100402 04:43:45< Gambit> The guy who mentioned getting wesnoth from the pirate bay is officially a jack***
20100402 04:44:05< Gambit> *+in my book
20100402 04:44:11< Gambit> Unless it was a joke
20100402 04:44:16< Gambit> oops I'm still in wensoth-dev
20100402 04:44:20< Gambit> :\ lol
20100402 04:44:36< ancestral> Anyway the slider was called "Smart Shuffle" with "more likely" on one end and "less likely" on the other.
20100402 04:44:36< ancestral> http://images.macworld.com/images/legacy/2007/02/images/content/freedecide.jpg
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20100402 05:00:58< Gambit> So will you guys let everyone know it's a joke tomorow?
20100402 05:01:06< Gambit> It'd be really funny if you didn't. :)
20100402 05:01:43< gabba> mordante: the Hotkeys button on preferences dialog needs to be bumped down (or the dialog enlarged), since one of my recent patches added a new option. Not sure I should touch this myself.
20100402 05:02:23< gabba> Gambit: is there really an April's Fool joke? Where?
20100402 05:02:49< gabba> that random number stuff didn't sound serious
20100402 05:03:22< gabba> otherwise I want to take a look myself :D
20100402 05:05:10< danthux> a friend says the iPhone version of wesnoth could be distribuited through Cydia
20100402 05:07:28< Zarel> Gambit: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=419094#p419094
20100402 05:09:01< gabba> Lol ok, I missed the thread since I was expecting the april's fools as an annoucement
20100402 05:12:31< danthux> I hope the 1.8 release is not a joke :/
20100402 05:12:45< ancestral> danthux: It's real as ever
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20100402 05:14:23< danthux> paranoid: I hope ancestral is not a liar telling me an april's fools joke, lol
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20100402 05:15:16< ancestral> They've been planning 1.8 for a long time :) You can choose to ignore everything else in the forums, however
20100402 05:18:25< gabba> Ha ha, I know I'm late to the party, but I love how Sirp took the time to do this detailed writeup and even some perl scripts :)
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20100402 05:27:15< Funk> Yo? My name is Jason. Anyone here?
20100402 05:28:09< Funk> I'm semi-bored as boost compiles.
20100402 05:29:29< Funk> 48 people, and no chatting. Am I missing something?
20100402 05:29:56< Funk> pft. Boost finished compiling. Goin' semi-afk.
20100402 05:30:01< klic> you missed the fact that everyone's afk
20100402 05:30:19< Funk> All 48?! =o
20100402 05:30:30< Funk> I dunno, I'm not on irc often... perhaps that is normal.
20100402 05:30:32< klic> the probability of 48 people afking at the same time is pretty high
20100402 05:30:45< Funk> fair enough.
20100402 05:30:52< klic> if you consider that each one user's afk probability index to be 0.98
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20100402 05:31:19< Funk> that high?!
20100402 05:31:22< Funk> good grief
20100402 05:31:44< klic> yes, try pm-ing random people on irc
20100402 05:31:48< klic> see how many replies you get
20100402 05:32:31< Funk> haha I'll take your word on it.
20100402 05:35:51< ancestral> Sometimes #wesnoth has some action in it, which is more player-emphasized while #wesnoth-dev is more geared towards developer talk
20100402 05:36:07< ancestral> And then there's #wesnoth-music …
20100402 05:36:10< Funk> that is logical.
20100402 05:36:13< Funk> hmmm...
20100402 05:36:21< ancestral> Which is loosely about music 
20100402 05:36:32< ancestral> There's a few others I'm forgetting
20100402 05:37:06< Funk> is their a list of these on their wiki somewhere or something/.'
20100402 05:37:11< Funk> *something?
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20100402 05:37:34< ancestral> I feel like there is, otherwise some clients like mine have a search function
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20100402 05:38:15< Funk> hmmm I'm using something called Colloquy... I shall explore.
20100402 05:38:26< ancestral> You and me both then
20100402 05:39:00< ancestral> When you go to join a room, there is a search box at the bottom left (you may need to click the arrow down to expand the panel)
20100402 05:39:09< ancestral> Unless you're using Colloquy for iPhone… :)
20100402 05:39:26< Funk> nope, on mac
20100402 05:39:32< Funk> very nice, thanks for the advice =)
20100402 05:39:32< ancestral>  s/arrow/triangle
20100402 05:39:57< Funk> that's a pretty elaborate way to fix a typo lol
20100402 05:40:13< ancestral> It's Perl shorthand for substitution
20100402 05:40:29< Funk> i know i know, it's just amusingly elaborate
20100402 05:40:52< Funk> rather than just being lazy and using * and assuming the person recognize the mistake, or saying a couple words to put context.
20100402 05:41:06< Funk> actually... i guess that is the shortest way to fix the mistake
20100402 05:41:11< Funk> hmmm interesting.
20100402 05:41:26< ancestral> Funk: You said you're compiling boost. Are you building Wesnoth?
20100402 05:41:38< Funk> unfortunately if you pick up the habit and talk to a relative you'll confuse them a lot.
20100402 05:41:40< Funk> ya
20100402 05:41:56< Funk> I'm installing pango right now
20100402 05:41:58< ancestral> Are you following the info on the wiki?
20100402 05:42:06< ancestral> It's a bit outdated, iirc
20100402 05:42:06< Funk> I'm sorta half guessing a lot of the things
20100402 05:42:12< Funk> I did and it didn't make
20100402 05:42:15< Funk> ya
20100402 05:42:16< Funk> i figured so
20100402 05:42:23< Funk> I'm following the "INSTALL" file right now
20100402 05:42:29< Funk> but it appears to be prepared for linux users.
20100402 05:42:49< ancestral> Crimson_Pengiun has a bunch of headers and Xcode compiling files available on the forums
20100402 05:42:54< ancestral> *Crimson_Penguin
20100402 05:43:00< Funk> ah forums... ofcourse.
20100402 05:43:05< Funk> ok i'll check it out right now
20100402 05:43:08< crimson_penguin> it's outdated though
20100402 05:43:15< ancestral> Otherwise… if you're not necessarily looking to build it, the binary is ready to go
20100402 05:44:02< ancestral> He's your man if you run into trouble :)
20100402 05:44:11< Funk> haha
20100402 05:44:21< Funk> ya but I did sorta download it just to play with it.
20100402 05:44:37< Funk> I was hoping to apply to the GSoC thing
20100402 05:45:09< Funk> work with the lua code to exploit AI programmed for C++
20100402 05:45:31< crimson_penguin> ok, with GSoC and now 1.8, I guess I better upload a new package, eh?
20100402 05:46:02< Funk> 1.8?
20100402 05:46:15< Funk> oh the latest build I suppose
20100402 05:48:39< Funk> Hey ancestral, you still there? You by any chance have Colloquy setup with growl?
20100402 05:48:57< Funk> I'm finding it quiet inconvinient to have to check the app every few seconds.
20100402 05:49:17< ancestral> Mine will growl at me when someone says my name or sends me a PM
20100402 05:49:20< ancestral> I think you can adjust it
20100402 05:49:25< ancestral> to growl all the time
20100402 05:50:22< Funk> ok, will I setup notifications... we'll see how it goes.
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20100402 06:22:31< crimson_penguin> Colloquy actually uses its own notifications that look like Growl
20100402 06:25:54< Funk> Makes sense.
20100402 06:26:10< Funk> Ah Mac Compile Stuff finished ;)
20100402 06:31:13< Funk> "GCC 4.2 is not compatible with the Mac OS X 10.4 SDK (file game.cpp)" =(
20100402 06:33:26< Funk> Hey crimson_penguin any idea how to change the version of GCC that is used in xcode?
20100402 06:33:58< crimson_penguin> Project -> Edit Active Target (or Project)
20100402 06:34:10< crimson_penguin> in Build, there's a place to set it
20100402 06:34:20< noy> who is fabian mueller?
20100402 06:36:14< ancestral> Yay I done updated this'r game her, hyuck: http://macgamefiles.com/detail.php?item=17835
20100402 06:37:19< Funk> nice
20100402 06:37:49< crimson_penguin> nice, I submitted to Apple's download site finally, but they haven't accepted it yet
20100402 06:37:58< noy> I see fabi wants to make a joke...
20100402 06:38:04< noy> it wasn't funny though
20100402 06:45:07< klic> o.O the average afk index in this channel went up
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20100402 07:23:08< crimson_penguin> Funk: I'm uploading a new building package btw
20100402 07:25:30< crimson_penguin> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1218390/what-is-your-most-productive-shortcut-with-vim
20100402 07:25:34< crimson_penguin> oops, wrong place
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20100402 08:24:24< crimson_penguin> Funk: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=287&start=135
20100402 08:27:45< awilkins_> I should not be writing my proposal wiki this late. There's spelling/grammar errors everywhere.
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20100402 09:04:05< mordante> servus
20100402 09:06:14< mordante> shadowmaster, I'm not going to complain on ml, just ask what others think is sensible behaviour
20100402 09:06:54< mordante> shadowmaster, and since it works as designed it's clearly not a bug, changing the behaviour is a FR
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20100402 09:29:05< CIA-64> mordante * r41926 /trunk/src/gui/auxiliary/window_builder.cpp: Properly register the progress bar to be build.
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20100402 09:30:54< CIA-64> mordante * r41927 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (progress_bar.cpp progress_bar.hpp): 
20100402 09:30:54< CIA-64> Properly initialize the progress bar canvas.
20100402 09:30:54< CIA-64> Also fixes a typo in the setter name.
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20100402 09:33:53< mordante> gabba can you pastebin your patch so I can see what goes wrong?
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20100402 09:37:22< CIA-64> mordante * r41928 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Adds "animated" logo to the new title screen.
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20100402 09:42:47< mordante> Funk, a lot of us still idle here when asleep ;-) do you have more questions regarding GSoC?
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20100402 09:53:32< awilkins_> hey zookeeper 
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20100402 10:00:37< awilkins_> zookeeper: I know I said hey but I can't stay up any longer haha. You may have just got on but it's 4 am here. I'll be on later, good night all.
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20100402 10:04:56< gabba> mordante: the patch in question was already commited by Boucman: https://gna.org/patch/?1556
20100402 10:05:38< gabba> mordante: I added an option an therefore it bumps down all the elements on the General pages of Preferences, and the bottom slider is half over the Hotkeys button.
20100402 10:05:47< gabba> s/an/and
20100402 10:12:54< gabba> mordante: the "culprit" is on line 36 on this pastebin: http://pastebin.com/Lh72Yf3n
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20100402 10:18:53< mordante> gabba, ah ok I see, fixing it is tricky since there's not much place try wesnoth --smallgui -r 800x480 to see what I mean
20100402 10:19:24< gabba> mordante: Exactly what I thought, that's why I asked you instead of enlarging the dialogue myself
20100402 10:19:48 * gabba goes to try the small gui
20100402 10:20:25< mordante> maybe "show team colours" and "show grid" can be moved to the display "page"
20100402 10:21:59< gabba> That, or suppress the space between "Interrupt move when an ally is sighted" and "Show team colors"?
20100402 10:22:47< mordante> also possible, but I also think the afore mentioned items actually more belong on the display page as the general one
20100402 10:23:46< gabba> Ok, I'll experiment with those two placements then. Should I just commit one when it looks good, or get back to you before?
20100402 10:24:01< mordante> gabba, you have commit access?
20100402 10:24:06< gabba> Yup ;)
20100402 10:24:16< mordante> oh I missed that, congrats with it
20100402 10:24:17< gabba> Not used it yet though
20100402 10:24:22< gabba> Thanks
20100402 10:24:52< mordante> then there's no need to run it along unless you want feedback on the patch
20100402 10:25:08< mordante> along me*
20100402 10:26:11< gabba> ok, I'll ask if needed, but this is simple enough and I'll obviously test and re-test before committing
20100402 10:26:38< mordante> ok good luck
20100402 10:28:08< gabba> mordante: btw my main proposal is only missing it's calendar, would you like to review it and give me feedback, especially on the interface part? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba
20100402 10:28:50< gabba> mordante: you can read it and give me feedback when I come back online, 'cause for now it's sleep time for me
20100402 10:30:27 * gabba does ZZZZZZzzzzzzz.....
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20100402 11:07:18< CIA-64> mordante * r41929 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
20100402 11:07:18< CIA-64> New title screen now handles language changes.
20100402 11:07:18< CIA-64> After changing the language the title screen now directly shows the text
20100402 11:07:18< CIA-64> in the new language.
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20100402 11:18:52< timotei21> have a question... kdevelop doesn't work on ubuntu? :-S
20100402 11:19:44< CIA-64> mordante * r41930 /trunk/ (changelog data/core/about.cfg src/preferences_display.cpp): 
20100402 11:19:44< CIA-64> Mark widescreen resolutions in selection dialog.
20100402 11:19:44< CIA-64> Implements bug #15623 with patch #1568.
20100402 11:21:06< mordante> timotei21, no idea but it would surprise me... although it's Ubuntu ;-)
20100402 11:21:30< timotei21> well, I installed and crashes :))
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20100402 11:33:00< Ivanovic> moin
20100402 11:33:07< freim> timotei21: what version?
20100402 11:33:14< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20100402 11:34:07< timotei21> ubuntu 9.10 if I recall correctly
20100402 11:34:40< freim> timotei21: if it's kdev 4 it's still in beta with a final release not before may
20100402 11:35:40< freim> ubuntu is a little to eager to bundle software that is not yet final and stable
20100402 11:36:04< timotei21> yes, it's kdevelop 4.3.9
20100402 11:36:05< timotei21> :D
20100402 11:37:07< timotei21> should I uninstall it, and install an older version?
20100402 11:37:45< freim> if you want something that doesn't crash all the time, yes :)
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20100402 11:38:12< timotei21> ok
20100402 11:43:11< Ivanovic> OMG, the april fools day threads are getting better with every post
20100402 11:44:03< mordante> yup, had some nice laughs, especially with the "ascii" randomness
20100402 11:45:21< Ivanovic> i loved daves post in the poll thread
20100402 11:45:42< Ivanovic> the one about the cheating ai which could be prohibited by executing it on a different server and the likes
20100402 11:45:46< Zarel> Ivanovic: What'd you think of my "NO CARRIER" one? ;)
20100402 11:45:59< Ivanovic> Zarel: where is it?
20100402 11:46:16< Ivanovic> i'm currently at post 50 in the poll thread, the other one done
20100402 11:46:26< Zarel> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=419126#p419126
20100402 11:46:58< mordante> btw Zarel did you use some tool to convert the ascii to text?
20100402 11:47:16< Zarel> mordante: Yes; I also linked to one in the above linked post. ;)
20100402 11:49:15< mordante> ah I see, missed that
20100402 11:50:08< Ivanovic> currently laughing myself silly about daves warning that wesnoth skynet has gone live
20100402 11:50:09< Zarel> They're surprisingly hard to find.
20100402 11:50:14< mordante> only scared that some people still weren't sure whether or not it was true
20100402 11:50:27< Zarel> mordante: Oh, man, that was _horrible_
20100402 11:50:47< Zarel> People _knew_ it was April Fool's Day, and they were still unsure...
20100402 11:50:51< mordante> yeah and I was too lazy to translate it myself, but the hex values looked too much like ascii ;-)
20100402 11:50:56< timotei21> omg... kdevelop sucks
20100402 11:51:01< timotei21> no new file/project?
20100402 11:51:20< timotei21> and it's not the beta one
20100402 11:51:26< timotei21> it's the latest stable:)
20100402 11:51:32< Zarel> mordante: Anyone who's done much string manipulation has 0x20 = ' ' memorized. ;)
20100402 11:52:08< Zarel> Heck, I have it memorized in decimal, too! 32.
20100402 11:52:09< timotei21> mordante, what you use to code for wesnoth on linux?
20100402 11:52:20< Zarel> timotei21: LET ME GUESS
20100402 11:52:23< Zarel> emacs + gcc
20100402 11:52:25< Zarel> amirite?
20100402 11:54:11< mordante> Zarel, true 0x20 is a giveaway but also the other values looked like ascii a lot ;-)
20100402 11:54:30< mordante> Zarel, nope I'm from the other church
20100402 11:54:40< Zarel> eww.
20100402 11:54:44< Zarel> SHUN THE VIM USER
20100402 11:54:45< mordante> timotei21, vim + g++ + gdb + ctags
20100402 11:54:47< Zarel> SHUUUUUUUUUUN
20100402 11:55:34< timotei21> :))
20100402 11:55:36< timotei21> I love vim too
20100402 11:55:43< timotei21> don't like that much emacs:P
20100402 11:56:05< timotei21> well, and you managed to get autocompletition right?
20100402 11:56:33< Zarel> vim is a dated text editor which has no use in our modern society.
20100402 11:56:46< mordante> timotei21, omnicomplete
20100402 11:57:02< mordante> Zarel, did you use vim recently?
20100402 11:57:54< timotei21> vim is for writing PROGRAMS and emacs for editing text:D
20100402 11:58:00< Ivanovic> but it was really interesting to see how long people believed in this stuff...
20100402 11:58:05< timotei21> I read that from somewhere
20100402 11:58:32< mordante> timotei21, I think at the moment vim and emacs have about the same capabilities ;-)
20100402 11:59:06< Zarel> No, emacs is for everything.
20100402 11:59:25< Zarel> And Scheme. Does anyone ever recommend vi for writing Scheme?
20100402 11:59:36< Ivanovic> mordante: no, vim is not a complete operating system
20100402 11:59:39< Ivanovic> it is a lot more slim
20100402 11:59:41< Ivanovic> ^^
20100402 12:00:02< Zarel> Yes, I mean, emacs comes with a text editor. It's called vim. :P
20100402 12:00:09< Zarel> Does vim come with a text editor? Huh? Huh?
20100402 12:00:38< Ivanovic> vim *IS* a text editor!
20100402 12:00:41< Ivanovic> ha, top this!
20100402 12:01:07< mordante> Ivanovic, oh yeah
20100402 12:01:21< freim> the only thing you need to know about vim is :q! so you know how to escape
20100402 12:01:30< Ivanovic> with other words: emacs needs vim to survive!
20100402 12:02:09< mordante> I just discovered the disadvantage of vim, I actually need to go to the kitchen to prepare my food... unlike emacs it doesn't include the kitchen sink
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20100402 12:24:52 * Ivanovic is just back from the kitchen with his tea
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20100402 12:34:44< mordante> shadowmaster, email send
20100402 12:37:01< fabi> Hello
20100402 12:37:59< mordante> hi fabi 
20100402 12:38:05< fabi> hi mordante 
20100402 12:38:18< mordante> fabi, you're serious about committing the less-luck patch?
20100402 12:38:28< timotei21> :))
20100402 12:38:37< timotei21> hello fabi
20100402 12:39:12< Zarel> fabi: I'm not sure yours is the best way to fix the luck issue...
20100402 12:40:18< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41931 /trunk/po/wesnoth-low/ja.po: updated Japanese translation
20100402 12:40:28< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41932 /branches/1.8/po/wesnoth-low/ja.po: updated Japanese translation
20100402 12:41:06< timotei21> Ivanovic, you know Japanese?:D
20100402 12:41:11< Ivanovic> no
20100402 12:41:23< timotei21> oh, ok
20100402 12:41:56< fabi> mordante, Well, if I don't get eaten by a mob of angry developers I wan't to submit it.
20100402 12:42:11< fabi> Zarel, Not? Why not?
20100402 12:43:39< Zarel> fabi: I mean, it's just straight-up pushing everything towards average.
20100402 12:43:46< mordante> fabi, I was just wondering whether or not it was a joke
20100402 12:43:56< mordante> don't care too much as long as it's MP only
20100402 12:44:14< Zarel> So the main thing it would screw with is strategies involving low attack counts. Such as intentionally using thunderers on units with 16-18 HP left.
20100402 12:44:24< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41933 /branches/1.8/ (77 files in 24 dirs): 
20100402 12:44:24< CIA-64> pot-update (string change in textdomain 'wesnoth')
20100402 12:44:24< CIA-64> regenerated doc files
20100402 12:44:25< zookeeper> fabi, unless you get an ok for that from people like noy, then don't unless you want to risk getting your head bitten off
20100402 12:45:07< Zarel> Yeah. In general, look for the devs flaming the loudest on the luck threads. ;)
20100402 12:45:21< Zarel> And get some sort of reaction from them before proceeding.
20100402 12:47:42< fabi> zookeeper, Noy already contacted me. But I have missed him. I should go and configure my SDI to collect massive amounts of InterContinental Balistic Fish.
20100402 12:48:59-!- euschn [~chatzilla@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20100402 12:49:32< timotei21> shikadibot SDI ?
20100402 12:49:40< timotei21> shikadibot SDI
20100402 12:49:52< timotei21> shikadibot help
20100402 12:50:01< fabi> Zarel: Well, I don't want to remove luck. In fact I like the luck system. My proposal would change the distribution and prevent the border cases happening that often. I actually can see that I like the idea of playing with the slider not bound to 1 for myself. 
20100402 12:50:15< timotei21> ummm, how do I ask shikadibot about a word?
20100402 12:50:54< Zarel> fabi: I understand. I'm just saying, MP devs might be less understanding. :P
20100402 12:51:07< fabi> timotei21, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative
20100402 12:51:15< Zarel> There's also that out of many competing luck systems, it's unclear whether or not yours is the best.
20100402 12:51:34< Zarel> And I can see the MP devs objecting to having a luck slider so easily visible.
20100402 12:53:11< mordante> shikadibot: SDI ?
20100402 12:53:11< shikadibot> Sorry, I don't know what 'SDI' means...
20100402 12:53:24< mordante> timotei21, the colon is the key ;-)
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20100402 12:54:32< Ivanovic> okay, i posted a reply in both threads (identical reply) making it clear that this is just an april fools day joke
20100402 12:54:52< Ivanovic> for those that still have not gotten it
20100402 12:54:56< fabi> Zarel, It will trigger their usual bite reflexes, sure.
20100402 12:55:22< timotei21> oh, thanks mordante
20100402 12:55:37 * Ivanovic does not know SDI, i only know GDI and NOD
20100402 12:55:39< Ivanovic> ;)
20100402 12:55:49< timotei21> what threads ivanovic?
20100402 12:56:01< Zarel> Ivanovic: How much internal communication is there? It'd be hilarious if you said something serious was a joke, like the release of 1.8.0. ;)
20100402 12:56:11< timotei21> the one with randomness?
20100402 12:56:18< timotei21> s/one/ones
20100402 12:56:36< Ivanovic> timotei21: the april fools day threads
20100402 12:59:10< timotei21> :D
20100402 13:13:59< fabi> wesbot, seen YogiHH?
20100402 13:13:59< wesbot> fabi: The person with the nick YogiHH last spoke 17h 6m ago.  15h 58m ago they left with the message: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]
20100402 13:16:09< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41934 /branches/1.8/data/core/about.cfg: added new japanese translator to the credits
20100402 13:16:23< CIA-64> ivanovic * r41935 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: added new japanese translator to the credits
20100402 13:18:23< fakedrake__> ivanovic: hello, i have a first completed my porposal, most probably i will make some changes but will you review it quickly please
20100402 13:19:29< Ivanovic> fakedrake__: url?
20100402 13:19:45< Zarel> Money makes the world go 'round! We only accept richposals here!
20100402 13:20:14< Ivanovic> Zarel: but at wesnoth we love corners
20100402 13:20:21< Ivanovic> have a look at the hex board
20100402 13:20:30< fakedrake__> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WMLDebugingSupport_fakedrake
20100402 13:20:33< Ivanovic> each hex has six corners, it is not round!
20100402 13:21:24< fakedrake__> xD
20100402 13:21:58< Zarel> fakedrake__: You state in section 1.3 that your IRC nickname is "fakedrake_", but it's actually "fakedrake__" right now.
20100402 13:22:02< Zarel> You're disqualified! ;)
20100402 13:22:22< timotei21> ops
20100402 13:22:23< timotei21> :-S
20100402 13:22:37< timotei21> hey, but it's the same
20100402 13:22:44< timotei21> maybe
20100402 13:22:47< timotei21> it's better
20100402 13:22:53< timotei21> fakedrake(_)*
20100402 13:22:54< fakedrake__> actually it was menat to be fakedrake
20100402 13:23:06< fakedrake__> but there is someon useing that name
20100402 13:23:18< fakedrake__> oh ok
20100402 13:23:19< Ivanovic> many names are already registered on the server
20100402 13:23:45< timotei21> why don't you clean them up?:D
20100402 13:23:47-!- fakedrake__ is now known as fakedrake_of_che
20100402 13:23:50< Zarel> Man, I'd like to just register Zarel.*
20100402 13:24:07< timotei21> the ones that are not used for about 1-2 yrs
20100402 13:24:22< Zarel> Man, thinking of this nick was genius. Five letters, and most sites don't have it pre-regged. ^_^
20100402 13:24:24< Ivanovic> fakedrake_of_che: uhm, try this please: /nick fakedrake
20100402 13:24:39-!- fakedrake_of_che is now known as fakedrake
20100402 13:24:41< fakedrake> ok
20100402 13:24:42< Ivanovic> looks to me like it is currently not used and nickserv says that the nick is not (yet) registered
20100402 13:24:55< Ivanovic> so, if you want to be sure to keep the nick: register it at freenode
20100402 13:25:02< fakedrake> ok
20100402 13:25:04< fakedrake> thx
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20100402 13:25:58< Ivanovic> fakedrake: so some things regarding your proposal:
20100402 13:26:06< Ivanovic> 1) you filled the questionnaire, good start
20100402 13:26:16< Ivanovic> 2) the project proposal itself needs a lot more
20100402 13:26:35< Ivanovic> 3) have you already successfully compiled wesnoth?
20100402 13:27:15< Ivanovic> in general feel free to split the part about the project from the questionnaire
20100402 13:27:24< Ivanovic> most content in fact should be about your project
20100402 13:27:57< Ivanovic> an exceptional proposal can look like this: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_AI_Improvement_Crab
20100402 13:27:58< fakedrake> i ahve compiled wesnoth
20100402 13:28:21< Ivanovic> as you see, the ratio between information about the project and the questionnaire is completely different
20100402 13:29:08< Ivanovic> you might be interested in talking to AI0867 about the scheme stuff, since he already had a look at this stuff before
20100402 13:29:48< fakedrake> cool thnx
20100402 13:29:49< Ivanovic> in general i'd recommend looking at the list of easy coding tasks for stuff that might be related to your possible project and try to create a patch
20100402 13:30:21< Ivanovic> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/EasyCoding
20100402 13:31:04< fakedrake> ok
20100402 13:31:10< fakedrake> i will start with the patch
20100402 13:31:30< fakedrake> and i will contact AI0867
20100402 13:31:38< fakedrake> as soon as he is available
20100402 13:31:46< fakedrake> andf i will come back to you
20100402 13:31:47< fakedrake> :D
20100402 13:32:00< Ivanovic> his client is currently marked as "away", though i am confident that he will at least react with a "huh?!?" once he is around since he got several highlights
20100402 13:33:32< fakedrake> ok
20100402 13:34:06< Zarel> Hee.
20100402 13:34:27< Zarel> The way my chat client is set up, I can't actually tell whether or not I've been highlighted, or if it's just NickServ saying "welcome back!"
20100402 13:35:48< timotei21> I use xchat, and he highlights with red color, the text
20100402 13:39:29< Ivanovic> timotei21: if you use a bouncer it depends how things are done
20100402 13:39:45< Ivanovic> timotei21: if there is a log reply and all the likes
20100402 13:40:19< Zarel> I use Xchat Aqua, but I'm talking about when I'm away for a long time: The red line's scrolled offscreen, the alerts have come and gone...
20100402 13:40:47< Zarel> And the "something requires your attention" icon is exactly the same for notices as for highlights.
20100402 13:40:56< Ivanovic> Zarel: when i am not around i tend to focus my view on the server list
20100402 13:40:58< Zarel> ...maybe I should just change that.
20100402 13:41:09< Ivanovic> then the tabs with the chan names are marked red when i was highlighted
20100402 13:41:17< Ivanovic> and i can scroll back up to see what it was about
20100402 13:41:17< Zarel> Ivanovic: Hmm, that's a good idea.
20100402 13:42:05< Ivanovic> that is: /part messages mark the chan blue till i see them, normal chat messages mark it green and highlights with my nick used mark them red
20100402 13:42:46< Ivanovic> (plus a pink marker when a nick "reasonable close" to my own is used, just to make sure that i don't miss messages just because someone is not used to tab completion and puts a typo into my nick...
20100402 13:43:23< Zarel> That's also a good reason not to choose a common name.
20100402 13:43:36< Zarel> One of the Warzone developers uses the nick "per", which is also his real name.
20100402 13:44:14< Ivanovic> exactly
20100402 13:44:37< ilor_> Ivanovic: using konveration by any chance?
20100402 13:44:42< Ivanovic> ilor_: of course
20100402 13:44:52< Ivanovic> what else is there to use when using linux anyway?
20100402 13:44:54< Ivanovic> ;)
20100402 13:45:14< ilor_> Ivanovic: ever had an issue with the hide to tray feature, namely it's impossible to un-tray the thing?
20100402 13:45:37< Ivanovic> no, works perfectly for me, though i tend to not hide it to tray
20100402 13:45:53< Ivanovic> i got one workspace dedicated to firefox, konversation and kopete
20100402 13:46:12< Ivanovic> (plus every now and then tvtime or a mediaplayer in the top right corner)
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20100402 13:46:59< Ivanovic> (yes, i don't like to use applications in fullscreen on my display, eg the webbrowser would be too large to remain usable)
20100402 13:47:00< ilor_> I got somewaht startled when launching konversation after upgrading to ubuntu lucid... for some reason it thought launching nepomuk the desktop search and the kitchen sink was a good idea
20100402 13:47:39< Ivanovic> uhm, okay
20100402 13:47:46< Ivanovic> that might be the difference
20100402 13:47:51< Ivanovic> on gentoo things "just work"
20100402 13:47:53< Ivanovic> ;)
20100402 13:47:54< Ivanovic> Sysinfo for 'rechner1': Linux 2.6.34-rc3 running KDE Development Platform 4.4.2 (KDE 4.4.2), CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Quad  CPU   Q9300  @ 2.50GHz at 2000 MHz (4999 bogomips), HD: 221/1162GB, RAM: 3447/3960MB, 171 proc's, 2.22h up
20100402 13:48:00< ilor_> this is on a netbook so these lovely little apps killed everything and I could barely keep up with killall
20100402 13:48:10< Ivanovic> brrrr
20100402 13:48:16-!- meric [~Eric@124-171-18-219.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 13:48:31< ilor_> fortunately it only did this thing once
20100402 13:48:37< Ivanovic> :)
20100402 13:49:25< ilor_> Ivanovic: btw I made a note in the bugtracker about the error message spam you mentioned, so it won't get lost
20100402 13:49:34< Ivanovic> okay, good
20100402 13:50:05< ilor_> btw, anyone here tried using qtcreator with wesnoth?
20100402 13:50:55< timotei21> fabi or crab_ , I'm currently doing the scenario wizard, and there is a question I have
20100402 13:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 78 bugs, 255 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100402 13:51:16< timotei21> about importing umc projects.
20100402 13:51:27< timotei21> I mean, you develop a project, and then import it
20100402 13:51:32< timotei21> to modify it
20100402 13:51:46< timotei21> should we add a new "file" or use the _main.cfg file?
20100402 13:52:59< timotei21> because, if we don't add a new "project file-type", I have to seek through _main, and subsequent files, to search for the files used
20100402 13:58:12< fakedrake> oh
20100402 13:58:44< fakedrake> while i was away to my grandma last week i compiled wesnoth on a netbook
20100402 13:59:08< fakedrake> and wen i rat it windowed
20100402 13:59:17< fakedrake> (non fullscreen)
20100402 13:59:29< Ivanovic> you can always switch to fullscreen
20100402 13:59:38< fakedrake> half the window was offscreen
20100402 13:59:46< fakedrake> i also found a fix for that
20100402 13:59:48< Ivanovic> using ctrl+f or just via the preferences by using the checkbox there
20100402 13:59:58< Ivanovic> that is: this "problem" should already be fixed in 1.8.0
20100402 14:00:14< fakedrake> oh ok
20100402 14:00:27< Ivanovic> retry with 1.8.0 and check if it is working there
20100402 14:00:27< fakedrake> i just update the subversion?
20100402 14:00:32< fakedrake> ok
20100402 14:00:55< Ivanovic> the fix is in trunk, too
20100402 14:01:00< Ivanovic> so it is enough to run svn up
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20100402 14:01:15< fabi> timotei21, I don't understand you question. Please explain in more detail.
20100402 14:02:03< timotei21> well, the editor creates a project, where you edit the .cfg files
20100402 14:02:46< fakedrake> should i run svn clear first?
20100402 14:02:57< timotei21> and there is the _main.cfg file, which is the first thing that get's parsed when running the campaign
20100402 14:02:58< timotei21> right?
20100402 14:03:07< fabi> yes
20100402 14:03:27< timotei21> now, if you want to edit existing files with eclipse, shouldn't it be more interesting to actually IMPORT the while campaign files?
20100402 14:03:42< timotei21> and for that I need to get the current structure of the files.
20100402 14:04:11< fabi> timotei21, You are speaking about the importing of a campaign that is not an eclipse project yet?
20100402 14:04:13< timotei21> so the question was: how should I import the structure: using an auxiliar file (like for example in kdevelop is: .kdevelop) or using the original _main.cfg
20100402 14:04:16< timotei21> yes
20100402 14:04:41< timotei21> with the _main.cfg I'll have to "parse" the entire tree by looking for: next_scenario tag
20100402 14:04:54< fakedrake> i mean make clear
20100402 14:05:12< timotei21> using a .proj file, that has a full list of files included in the campaign would be better, isn't it?
20100402 14:05:34< timotei21> if this is true, I will do a "converter" that creates the .proj files from actual  campaign
20100402 14:05:40< timotei21> s/campaign/campaigns
20100402 14:05:49< fakedrake> (quite a few updates in 10 days)
20100402 14:06:58< fabi> timotei21, I can't see anything wrong with using a .proj file. But what happens if the user edits the _main.cfg manualy? Inside or outside of eclipse? I guess you can't get around following the next_scenario tags.
20100402 14:06:59< timotei21> am I more clear now?
20100402 14:07:15< timotei21> well
20100402 14:07:56< fabi> But I would follow them in reversed order. Wesnoth's campaigns can do branching. So it's not possible to put them in a line.
20100402 14:08:18< fabi> It's more like a graph (not even a tree since you can jump backwards!).
20100402 14:08:24< timotei21> yes
20100402 14:08:28< timotei21> I didn't know
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20100402 14:09:03< timotei21> well, then it should be an auxilliary file... but still I don't get the " But what happens if the user edits the _main.cfg manualy"
20100402 14:09:13< timotei21> what has that to do with the project's structure?
20100402 14:09:29< timotei21> if we use that auxilliary file it won't matter, right?
20100402 14:09:32< fabi> You will need to create that graph to know which variables are in the scope.
20100402 14:10:10< fabi> Wait, if a user edits the campaign in emacs or vi. You will have changed next_scenario attributes or even the first_scenario attributes in your files.
20100402 14:10:38< fabi> If you open the project in eclipse again your .proj file will still have the old values included.
20100402 14:10:39< timotei21> oh, yes
20100402 14:11:27< fabi> So, there is no point in denying a .proj file for extra information. But it should not contain any user editable wml specific information in it.
20100402 14:12:23< fabi> The graph will give you information about valid variables.
20100402 14:12:58< CIA-64> mordante * r41936 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (listbox.cpp password_box.cpp widget.hpp): 
20100402 14:12:58< CIA-64> Improve the REGISTER_WIDGET macro.
20100402 14:12:58< CIA-64> This change makes it easier to use for other types as well.
20100402 14:13:10< CIA-64> mordante * r41937 /trunk/src/map.cpp: Remove a MSVC 6.0 work-around.
20100402 14:13:27< timotei21> well,yes
20100402 14:13:30< fabi> But for the information about valid macros you will need a extra tree structure since the includes and macro definitions are linear but the include hierarchy maybe a tree.
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20100402 14:15:53< fabi> Maybe you can get around the implementation details by using the python libraries properly. 
20100402 14:16:15< fabi> timotei21: Did I get your question right?
20100402 14:16:29< timotei21> well, for the moment I'll focus on the wizard thingy, so I can also provide some patches
20100402 14:17:04< timotei21> the real question was more of: am I allowed to add a new type of file that represents the campaign ? (for the editor)
20100402 14:17:25< timotei21> that file will be used only by the editor 
20100402 14:18:28< fabi> Okay, and the answer is: Yes you can but the system must still support manual changes to the wml code.
20100402 14:18:32< timotei21> yes
20100402 14:19:30< fabi> timotei21: Have you figured out how to create the directory structure? I didn't get that part right.
20100402 14:19:50< timotei21> well, I'm working on it.
20100402 14:20:05< timotei21> first I'm trying to create the project in the workspace
20100402 14:20:13< timotei21> and then some blank files + folder
20100402 14:20:30< timotei21> but needed to clarify first the era,campaign,scenario thingys
20100402 14:20:31< timotei21> :P
20100402 14:21:29< timotei21> so: ERA > Campaign > Scenario
20100402 14:21:31< timotei21> in multiplayer
20100402 14:21:39< timotei21> and: Campaign>SCenario in singleplayer
20100402 14:21:40< timotei21> ?
20100402 14:22:28< timotei21> or the era has only scenarios
20100402 14:22:56< fabi> Normaly a era is a container for factions, which consist of units.
20100402 14:23:30< fabi> A campaign can make use of an era but is not part of the coding afaik.
20100402 14:23:38< fakedrake> is there a reason for [if] not to be supported in all tags?
20100402 14:23:39< timotei21> oh, ok
20100402 14:24:00< fakedrake> or is it to be done in the future?
20100402 14:24:59< fakedrake> Ivanovic: do u know anything about it?
20100402 14:25:01< fabi> fakedrake, If is a part of action wml and that goes mostly inside events. Most likely if won't leave the events in the near future.
20100402 14:25:10< timotei21> I remember that was on "blacklisted" ideeas
20100402 14:25:38< timotei21> there was a list of rejected implementations
20100402 14:25:39< fabi> s/if/"if"
20100402 14:25:40< timotei21> afair
20100402 14:26:59< fakedrake> i still dont see why it is blacklisted
20100402 14:27:20< timotei21> it's only what I remember, that hasn't to be true. I'm searching for that page
20100402 14:28:40< timotei21> well, pardon me. that wasn't on that rejected page (which is here: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/FrequentlyProposedIdeas)
20100402 14:28:47< timotei21> it was merely a comment on the "bug"
20100402 14:29:46< timotei21> I'm sorry
20100402 14:31:53-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 14:32:02< fabi> fakedrake: If you are searching for a a way to determine attribute values in a functional if statement have a look at the Formula language.
20100402 14:33:37< Crab_> timotei21: my opinion on your question is : enforce a convention where scenarios are in 'scenarios' folder, maps are in 'maps' folder, etc
20100402 14:34:21< fabi> Crab_, timotei21 : Right, we already have a convention on this. That should be followed.
20100402 14:34:35< Crab_> timotei21: and, don't store information about individual scenario files in project file - just treat each file in 'scenarios' as a scenario, etc
20100402 14:35:34< Crab_> mainline will need some changes, minor ones , such as 'move 07_Elves_last_stand_utils.cfg to other place'
20100402 14:37:53< fabi> Crab_, Wait, you want to enforce that structure?
20100402 14:38:18< Crab_> fabi: for the editor, I think that this is a good idea.
20100402 14:38:25< fabi> Hmmm
20100402 14:38:40< fabi> No I don't think so.
20100402 14:38:51< Crab_> why ?
20100402 14:39:38< fabi> The editor should not deny any manual coding. directory structure and file names are a matter of macro inclusion. That should stay human codeable.
20100402 14:40:56< fabi> I don't want to give support to users pointing them to the fact that their including system must follow the eclipse plugin hardcoding now.
20100402 14:41:17< Crab_> 'must follow the mainline standarts', I'd say :)
20100402 14:41:29< Crab_> well, I think that we have to enforce restrictions on macroses and file names to make things simpler.... but, if that's not wanted we can go another route - add a concept of 'scenario folders', 'mask folders', 'utility folders', 'unit folders' to eclipse plugin
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20100402 14:41:59< Crab_> this way, author will be able to tell eclipse 'my scenarios are in this folder, my units are in this folder, ...'
20100402 14:42:34< Crab_> imo, this is better than adding invividual files to categories, since it's easier to copypaste stuff around by hand
20100402 14:43:37< fabi> Then you must change the way wesnoth's macro/include system works. If we don't do that we have no choice. 
20100402 14:44:15< fabi> It must be hardcoded in the engine to the schema as well. I don't think that this is a good idea know.
20100402 14:44:25< Crab_> well, we have a choice :
20100402 14:45:06< Crab_> 1) duplicate all the information about files in an addon in a specific 'project file', in whatever format it might be
20100402 14:45:57< Crab_> 2) guess all that information from directory layout (e.g., use standard layout convention)
20100402 14:46:39< Crab_> 3) store only information about layout in a specific 'project file', don't keep project-specific info about individual files
20100402 14:46:39< fabi> We don't have to guess anything. It's not an issue how the information is organized in a campaign. The resulting wml tree gives every information.
20100402 14:47:05< Crab_> we cannot use the wml tree for organizing files in a project
20100402 14:47:30< Crab_> since, if we do that, the structure will horribly break on any syntax error in WML code
20100402 14:47:48< Crab_> and, when we edit wml, those syntax errors happen quite often
20100402 14:48:20< Crab_> e.g., how you'll find out that a particular file is a scenario, if its WML is currently somewhat broken, or hidden behind macroses ?
20100402 14:48:39< Crab_> we cannot get a 'wml tree' at this point, since there's syntax errors
20100402 14:49:17< timotei21> I was away for a time, now I'm back
20100402 14:49:34< Crab_> fabi: for example, for java, eclipse uses such concepts as 'source folders' and 'convention where file location corresponds to its package, and file name corresponds to class name'
20100402 14:50:06< Crab_> so,  for example, we can just copy a new java file to the correct location, refresh the project, and eclipse will see it
20100402 14:51:34< Ivanovic> mordante: regarding mousewheel behaviour: using kde as window manager scrolling does follow the mouse cursor position but does not change focus of the widget
20100402 14:51:53< fabi> Crab_: Got your point. I guess that information needs to be read out of the _main.cfg file.
20100402 14:52:03< Ivanovic> so if i move my cursor to a place where i don't have keyboard focus, i can still scroll there and see no change to keyboard focus
20100402 14:52:27< Ivanovic> and yes, IMO this is convenient since this way you know where you scroll (simply since you know where the cursor is)
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20100402 14:54:15< Crab_> fabi: yes, that's also a choice. then we have to modify the syntax of _main.cfg to suit our needs - it needs to have a stricter syntax
20100402 14:54:31< Crab_> fabi: e.g., instead of {campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios}, we need [scenarios]{campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios}[/scenarios]
20100402 14:54:54< Crab_> then, we'll be able to mark every WML file in {campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios} as scenario
20100402 14:55:30< fabi> Crab_, If the parsing fails and we don't get any wml tree. We will need to display the parsers error. 
20100402 14:55:55< Crab_> fabi: for a single file that will work. for a large number of files, it won't work.
20100402 14:55:58< fabi> If that error message isn't good enough the parser needs to be repaired.
20100402 14:56:18< Crab_> fabi: so, it'll work for _main.cfg
20100402 14:57:19< fabi> Wait, if you have messed up the code horribly there is in almost every case a stacktrace from the engine. (And we will get more information from wmlvalidate or whatever)
20100402 14:57:30< Crab_> fabi: since if there'll be errors in _main.cfg, we can just display a type-less directory tree of the addon (basically, disabling all advanced features such as scenario name autocompletion, character name autocompletion, etc), until _main.cfg is repaired
20100402 14:57:45< Crab_> well, it's possible to mess up WML by omitting a few chars in macro arguments :)
20100402 14:59:14< fabi> Yes but the repairing of that is part of the make wml easier to debug proposal.
20100402 14:59:15< Crab_> fabi: I was talking about a structure of the project - if we store it in WML format in _main.cfg, then we have to restrict the syntax of _main.cfg (e.g., 'no macroses', ''each resource type in its own tag', etc), and accept the restriction that if main_.cfg is broken then we do not display the structure of the addon (only directory tree) until we repair the _main.cfg
20100402 14:59:26< fabi> It has nothing todo with the plugin.
20100402 15:00:35< Crab_> fabi: it's about plugin - 'if we store meta-information about files in the addon in _main.cfg then the plugin's work depends on the correctness of _main.cfg and stricter syntax structure of the _main.cfg '
20100402 15:01:18< fabi> Example: You handle content by files, not the way the engine sees them (which is a data glob).
20100402 15:01:49< fabi> The structure of the glob is messed up because you have feed an macro to few arguments.
20100402 15:02:33< Crab_> yes, by 'correctness of _main.cfg' I mean 'correctness of _main.cfg as a single file', not about 'correctness' as 'macroexpanded version'
20100402 15:04:05< timotei21> so, how we'll do this?
20100402 15:04:11< timotei21> use the _main.cfg ?
20100402 15:04:14< Crab_> yes
20100402 15:04:20< fabi> I would rather copy the behaviour of the engine, if that is not good enough, fine enhance the engine. The eclipse plugin should not develop it's own syntax or conventions.
20100402 15:04:23< Crab_> and change it's structure to be strictier
20100402 15:04:29-!- ilor_ [~ilor@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20100402 15:04:47< Crab_> fabi:yes, if we use _main.cfg, we need to change the engine a bit, too
20100402 15:05:01< timotei21> yes fabi, that's why I asked about this, not want to mess the current things just because I don't see another option
20100402 15:05:11< Crab_> fabi: since we need to make it clear where are the 'scenarios' in it, where are the 'lua' files, etc
20100402 15:06:23< fabi> I really would like to avoid telling the plugin about what it has to expect in a file. Let's rely more on the external tools like the python ones and the engine. 
20100402 15:06:40< fabi> Don't introduce a layer of knowledge only the eclipse plugin is aware of.
20100402 15:07:11-!- Darkas [~quassel@ppp-88-217-101-238.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 15:07:33< fabi> Let's avoid the need to change the plugin with every engine change. That is just a bad idea.
20100402 15:07:33< Crab_> fabi: we need to do that
20100402 15:08:07< Crab_> fabi: otherwise, how you'd make the plugin know that a particular file will be a scenario file ?
20100402 15:08:14< timotei21> well, I think the ideea of import things was bad... I should think about clever-er ideas :-S
20100402 15:08:54< Crab_> fabi: if the file has got correct syntax, then we can guess it. but if it's not done atm, or if it's broken atm ?
20100402 15:09:06< fabi> Crab_, I don't want the plugin to know about the file being a scenario file. It will only know that it is a wml file. 
20100402 15:09:35< fabi> If it is broken we will display what is broken from wmlvalidator lint engine, whatever.
20100402 15:09:47< Crab_> fabi: then how the plugin will be able to suggest, say, autocompletion suggestions for next scenario name ?
20100402 15:10:18< fabi> By that way we will see what needs to be done in the project that aims for better wml debuging. 
20100402 15:10:55< Crab_> well, I prefer to keep the projects independent as far as possible. what if not both are accepted :) ?
20100402 15:11:34< fabi> Crab_, Then the eclipse plugin will handle the things not optimal but we have a better idea for next years proposal.
20100402 15:11:39< Crab_> ok
20100402 15:13:00< Crab_> ok, I've got to go now. repeating my imho, 'the more meta-info plugin is able to guess based on file location or based on strict edition of _main.cfg 'wml project file', the better and more robust will it be.
20100402 15:13:20-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100402 15:13:25< fabi> The general tools that work in emacs, vi and whatever need that kind of love. If the eclipse plugin will get the wrong love the other methods are doomed.
20100402 15:13:53< timotei21> should we discuss this in the mailing list? to see what others suggest?
20100402 15:14:06< timotei21> so we can decide what should I do?
20100402 15:14:08< Crab_> timotei21: see how it's done for java-based frameworks
20100402 15:14:37< Crab_> timotei21: those frameworks which enhance java editors with support for various framework-specific artifacts
20100402 15:14:42< timotei21> yes
20100402 15:15:11< Crab_> timotei21: e.g., Spring has 'spring beans', and it needs autocompletion for names of those beans
20100402 15:15:51< Crab_> timotei21: some other frameworks need to collect info from annotations in files, and then offer features based on that info..
20100402 15:16:24< Crab_> timotei21: 'scenario id' is quite simular to 'annotation' in java - it's a thing which can be found by reading a specific file, and parsing it in a language-dependent way
20100402 15:16:29< Crab_> bye
20100402 15:16:31-!- Crab_ [~Crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20100402 15:17:39< timotei21> bye bye
20100402 15:19:41< fabi> timotei21, Please send a mail to the dev-ml list about the _main.cfg issues.
20100402 15:21:46< timotei21> this one: wesnoth-dev@gna.org
20100402 15:21:47< timotei21> right?
20100402 15:23:13< fabi> timotei21, yes.
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20100402 15:25:53-!- timotei21_away is now known as timotei21
20100402 15:25:59< fakedrake> i updated the svn and recompiled on my netbook and the resolution problem persists on windowed mode
20100402 15:26:17< fakedrake> Ivanovic
20100402 15:26:32< Ivanovic> strange
20100402 15:26:42< Ivanovic> submit a bugreport at bugs.wesnoth org
20100402 15:26:52< Ivanovic> and also a patch at patches.wesnoth.org
20100402 15:26:59< Ivanovic> crosslink both
20100402 15:27:30< Ivanovic> (as in "the fix is in patch #1234" in the bugreport and "this fixes bug #ABCD" in the patch
20100402 15:28:34< fakedrake> ok
20100402 15:29:37< fakedrake> is sdl 1.3 in the dependencies?
20100402 15:31:15< Ivanovic> 1.3 ain't released so far
20100402 15:31:27< Ivanovic> what we know does work nicely is up to 1.2.13
20100402 15:31:33< timotei21> fabi, should I include a link to the today's chatting also?
20100402 15:31:34< Ivanovic> 1.2.14 has some problems
20100402 15:31:46< fabi> timotei21, good idea.
20100402 15:31:49< timotei21> ok
20100402 15:32:01< timotei21> I'll put also the hours when we started the talkings
20100402 15:33:17< fakedrake> right i meant 2.12.10
20100402 15:34:08< fakedrake> would it be a good choise to consider the video setup before running of the game the best available?
20100402 15:35:36< Ivanovic> the default, if possible!, should be to start in 1024x768 windowed
20100402 15:35:52< Ivanovic> sure, if that does not fit on the screen, it should test for smaller but still supported resolutions
20100402 15:36:06< Ivanovic> without --smallgui this means resolutions down to 800x600
20100402 15:36:32< fakedrake> the problem is that video::modePossible
20100402 15:36:56< fakedrake> checks if the setup is available by the VGA
20100402 15:37:06< fakedrake> but not essentially by the monitor
20100402 15:37:09-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20100402 15:37:18< fakedrake> (that's what i think happened in my netbook)
20100402 15:37:26< Ivanovic> hm, interesting
20100402 15:37:36< Ivanovic> report it, supply a patch and "someone" will look at it
20100402 15:37:43< fakedrake> ok
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20100402 15:44:33-!- fabi [~fabi@88-134-15-230-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100402 15:48:46-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 15:56:02< timotei21> ok, sent the mail
20100402 15:56:49-!- _jbx_ [~jbailey@12.190.80.225] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 15:59:35-!- fabi [~fabi@88-134-15-230-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100402 16:04:29< boucman> hey all
20100402 16:05:01< timotei21> hello boucmand
20100402 16:05:03< fabi> hi boucman 
20100402 16:05:08< timotei21> s/boucmand/boucman
20100402 16:05:13< fabi> timotei21, answered to your mail.
20100402 16:05:19< timotei21> ok
20100402 16:05:20< timotei21> thank
20100402 16:05:22< timotei21> s
20100402 16:12:34< fabi> boucman, What about the idea that poison does 8hp damage as know. But you can stack it in double mode to 16 and 24 in triple mode.
20100402 16:13:35< boucman> fabi: i havn't answered the luck thread yet, but i'm of the faction that thinks that people complaining about luck are complaining because it's easier to complain about luck than to complain about your own aptitudes...
20100402 16:13:50< fabi> slow can be handled the same way. In double mode it slows by 25% stackable to 50%.
20100402 16:14:09< boucman> I think luck is part of the game and changing the way it's done makes a different game, so i'm more or less against the idea of multiplying HP itself...
20100402 16:15:34< Ivanovic> fabi: the doubling does change all the existing dynamics of the game
20100402 16:15:47< Ivanovic> fabi: like for example units with a tiny amount of attacks that do huge damage
20100402 16:15:48< fabi> I thought so. Never expected the patch to get accepted. I aimed for the new Wesnoth fork from the beginning. I just thought I could try to bring it in mainline at least for checking if it works when it's done properly.
20100402 16:16:16< boucman> fabi: "the new wesnoth fork" ??
20100402 16:16:18< Ivanovic> (best example: the dwarf thunderwhatever)
20100402 16:16:26< grzybacz> boucman: the one discussed on the forums
20100402 16:16:26< _jbx_> fabi: i'm not real sure what your idea is, but I"m not at all interested in an idea that uses "double" mode
20100402 16:16:30< Ivanovic> boucman: cf forums
20100402 16:16:34< Gambit> In double and triple mode they would still have many less strikes by comparison.
20100402 16:16:48< boucman> grzybacz: I must have missed the thread, is it active ? where is it ?
20100402 16:17:04< Ivanovic> Gambit: but the chances do change completely
20100402 16:17:17< Gambit> The chances become more equal to defense.
20100402 16:17:18< Ivanovic> Gambit: the chances to have this unit as important as now is lower
20100402 16:17:23< Ivanovic> no, they don't
20100402 16:17:29< fabi> boucman, http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29369&start=15
20100402 16:17:45< Ivanovic> currently you got eg 40% chance to kill the unit or at least remove half the HP
20100402 16:17:49< boucman> thx
20100402 16:18:08< Ivanovic> when hp and numbers of strikes are trippled you got 0.4^3 as chance to do the same with this unit
20100402 16:18:15< Ivanovic> the worth of this unit is extremely reduced
20100402 16:20:06< Ivanovic> the patch does more than just change how often things do happen, it does change the "charakter" of some units
20100402 16:20:11< fabi> Ivanovic, No, not necessarily. You change kill change against predictability. That is exactly what the luck haters want. 
20100402 16:20:31< Gambit> Plus it still has its massive damage.
20100402 16:20:35< Sirp> fabi: ummm when some guy on the forums who has done nothing of value so far other than slander Wesnoth on Wikipedia announces that there will be a "new Wesnoth port" I think the chance of succeeding is vanishingly low.
20100402 16:20:55< Sirp> if you want a Wesnoth fork, I'd suggest doing it yourself. :)
20100402 16:21:03< fabi> Sirp, I know, the guy is a troll.
20100402 16:21:20< Ivanovic> personally i think that this change does not work out nicely and yeah, it does completely void balancing
20100402 16:21:29< Ivanovic> eg the value of firststrike is significantly reduced
20100402 16:21:34< fabi> Sirp, it was YoggiHH who wanted to support a experimental fork. I don't like forks.
20100402 16:22:02< boucman> fabi: I might also point out  that if some features were rejected (like adjustable random and ladder) others were already implemented or mainly AWH
20100402 16:22:07< Ivanovic> if you just got three stikes instead of nine strikes it makes more of a difference who starts
20100402 16:22:49< Ivanovic> sure, for healing it would just be a case of double/tripple amount of hp gained
20100402 16:22:50< fabi> Sirp, but if YoggiHH does the fork, I will contribute the patch, since it is ready. And I see a chance that the resulting game might be funny. I want to point out that I am not a luck hater myself.
20100402 16:22:56< boucman> though personally ladder integration is something i'd like to see now that we have mp rooms...
20100402 16:23:16< Gambit> Well at the very least they'll see how awful a less lucky system is. :P (not really. they'll demand you balance it XD)
20100402 16:23:30< Ivanovic> Gambit: for this eg zookeeper already wrote an addon once
20100402 16:23:37< Ivanovic> IIRC it was almost not used at all
20100402 16:23:47< Ivanovic> less luck era or something like this
20100402 16:24:21< fabi> boucman, I don't want to support multilis and his ideas. I want to support an offical wesnoth experimental fork if it becomes existent. 
20100402 16:24:37 * Gambit says in a mocking tone "OH but we want that in mainline!" :)
20100402 16:25:11< boucman> fabi: hmm, 1.9 could be seen as such a thing... though I see that it probably wouldn't work since we very rarely try feature in there...
20100402 16:25:40< boucman> fabi: a git tree might be a way to do it, but your main problem will be lack of players, unless you organize MP-dev only games or something like that
20100402 16:25:40< _jbx_> furthermore, we have more important issues at hand
20100402 16:25:41< _jbx_> the 1.8 lobby is terribly buggy and awkward.  
20100402 16:25:48< _jbx_> it's almost embarrassingly bad
20100402 16:25:51< boucman> _jbx_: working on it...
20100402 16:25:57< Zarel> Gambit: Look, the next time I have access to Photoshop, I'll add real alpha to my avatar, k?
20100402 16:25:58< _jbx_> boucman: great
20100402 16:26:04< Ivanovic> _jbx_: write bug reports, so that the problems are at least listed
20100402 16:26:13< Zarel> Gambit: On second thought, I hate dark-on-light themes, so maybe not. ;)
20100402 16:26:22< Ivanovic> atm there are not this many reports about problems with the new lobby
20100402 16:26:32< Ivanovic> and in the beta and rc series we had not many testers either
20100402 16:26:37< fabi> Ivanovic, Firststrike can be doubled or tripled as well.
20100402 16:26:44< Ivanovic> how?
20100402 16:26:52< Ivanovic> you mean the first three strikes?
20100402 16:26:58< fabi> yeah
20100402 16:27:51< CIA-64> boucman * r41938 /trunk/src/ (animated.hpp animated.i builder.cpp builder.hpp): forgot some commits when merging water animation branch : random start for animations
20100402 16:29:28< CIA-64> boucman * r41939 /trunk/changelog: and I forgot the changelog too
20100402 16:30:55< CIA-64> boucman * r41940 /trunk/data/core/images/terrain/village/ (desert.png desert2.png desert3.png desert4.png): new desert villages by doofus-01, the sandcastle will follow as soon as it's ready
20100402 16:34:03< Zarel> fabi: That's a good idea.
20100402 16:34:36< Zarel> Heck, I think firststrike should be doubled in mainline!
20100402 16:34:40< Zarel> Would make it slightly less useless.
20100402 16:35:02< Sirp> first strike is hardly useless in mainline.
20100402 16:35:10< Sirp> it's quite a nice ability to have
20100402 16:35:12< mordante> Ivanovic, so the second proposal is used KDE, shadowmaster also mentioned that. Is that also the behaviour you prefer?
20100402 16:35:17< Zarel> You're right, it just doesn't come up very often.
20100402 16:35:19< boucman> it's a hard to use ability, but definitely not useless
20100402 16:35:35< Zarel> I mean, between first-strike, and, like, practically any other weapon special...
20100402 16:35:42< Zarel> Slow? Poison? Marksman? Magical?
20100402 16:35:47< boucman> mordante: is that about focus follow mouse ?
20100402 16:35:48< Zarel> I'd pick all of those over first-strike.
20100402 16:35:52< Ivanovic> mordante: yes, i prefer the kde behaviour
20100402 16:35:54< Zarel> any*
20100402 16:35:56< Ivanovic> boucman: yes
20100402 16:35:56< mordante> the old behaviour was let it act like page up/page down key presses
20100402 16:36:04< boucman> I think it's more instinctive for mousewheel to follow the mouse...
20100402 16:36:21< Sirp> Zarel: sure, but it's nice to have some abilities which are a small advantage rather than defining the unit
20100402 16:36:35< Sirp> slow, poison, marksman, magical all pretty much define the unit that has them
20100402 16:36:45< boucman> Zarel: we also need abilities for filne-tunning factions :)
20100402 16:37:00< Zarel> I dunno, I'm torn between "small abilities are nice for flavor" and "abilities that do very little violate KISS"
20100402 16:37:35< Sirp> first strike can be given to spearmen -- a 'core' infantry unit
20100402 16:37:40< Sirp> you can't really do that with other abilities.
20100402 16:38:19< Zarel> I dunno. What do you think about spearmen getting double-first-strike?
20100402 16:38:23< Sirp> also, first strike really does make spearmen *a lot* more effective against horsemen.
20100402 16:38:27< Zarel> I mean, we're definitely not talking mainline at this point.
20100402 16:38:51< Zarel> I mean, yeah, they're nice against horsemen.
20100402 16:38:57< Zarel> And it's completely negligible against anything else.
20100402 16:39:26< boucman> Zarel: it has quite an impact if the unit is about to die, since it will always have a chance to hit first
20100402 16:39:30< mordante> boucman, yes
20100402 16:39:32< Zarel> Which is why I find drake arbiter line kind of silly - when is that ever going to happen?
20100402 16:39:35< mordante> Ivanovic, ok noted
20100402 16:39:43< Zarel> boucman: It's a slight adjustment of probabilities.
20100402 16:39:48< Sirp> it's not really "completely negligible" -- it gives almost dead units a little more bite
20100402 16:40:24< Zarel> Except you usually just ping almost-dead units with the off-weapon, anyway.
20100402 16:40:42< Sirp> fabi: anyhow, not that I think your patch is necessarily a great idea, but I think the best way to do things with say 2x scaling would be to make it that the attacker gets two strikes, then the defender gets two strikes, then the attacker two, etc etc.
20100402 16:40:49< zookeeper> it never matters (in mainline) unless someone can die in the fight, and i don't think the increased odds of inflicting extra damage before you die or killing the enemy before they kill you are negligible very often..
20100402 16:41:18< Zarel> zookeeper: Erm, I think you have a double negative there.
20100402 16:41:29< zookeeper> maybe
20100402 16:41:56< fabi> Sirp, I will keep that advise in mind.
20100402 16:42:03< Zarel> As in, I can't actually tell if that statement is saying "first-strike is negligible" or "first-strike isn't negligible"
20100402 16:42:22< mordante> _jbx_, I also spoke with noy about the lobby this morning and he wanted to discuss it this weekend, which seems like a good idea to me
20100402 16:42:41< Zarel> Sirp: I think that's a bit too complex. Why not just 1 attack each?
20100402 16:42:52< _jbx_> i'm doing bug reports now, and adding comments to existing ones
20100402 16:42:56< zookeeper> Zarel, the latter
20100402 16:43:04< fabi> Sirp, I don't think that it's necessarily a good idea either. Just want to give people a little playground to discover themselves what wesnoth would look like. I thought that was exactly the spirit that YogiHH had in mind.
20100402 16:43:09< Sirp> Zarel: it doesn't interfere with balance as much.
20100402 16:43:32< Zarel> True, but the whole point of messing with luck is to interfere with balance. ;)
20100402 16:43:41< Sirp> fabi: if someone wants to do this kind of thing, I think it's better to just take the graphics and perhaps some of the code of Wesnoth and make a game with a new set of rules that is designed from 'the ground up' to have a different feel.
20100402 16:43:51< mordante> _jbx_, ok
20100402 16:44:13< Zarel> I'm thinking two initial attacks, then the regular 1 each, would probably be more KISS-y than 2 at a time, which I think would look really weird.
20100402 16:44:17< Sirp> fabi: I actually started doing that, a project called Elensefar, but I haven't gotten it to a stage I feel comfortable with a first release yet. You're welcome to look at it though, the code is available.
20100402 16:44:19< _jbx_> fabi: sometimes options are bad is not only a WML theory, but a gameplay theory.  if we start changing things and adding sliders for everything, we lose continuity and expectations of what gameplay should be gets fuzzy
20100402 16:44:40< _jbx_> fabi: we don't have to cater to the vocal minority 
20100402 16:45:43< boucman> Zarel: i'm not convinced there is a pb with firststrike, so at this point, discussing a fix is a bit premature
20100402 16:46:01< Zarel> boucman: ...I'm not proposing to fix it.
20100402 16:46:23< Zarel> I'm just thinking about what it would be like if we made it happen twice as early. Purely theoretical, etc.
20100402 16:47:05< boucman> oh, ok
20100402 16:47:25< Zarel> You have to realize I often bring up ideas that are completely ridiculous, but nonetheless interesting to think about and may actually spawn an actual good idea.
20100402 16:47:30< boucman> well, I think it would be less KISS for a start... and a bit problematic for a one-hit, first strike unit
20100402 16:47:35< fabi> _jbx_, Yes I am aware of that. And does not surprise me at all that the patch will get rejected. But I think it is a good start for the experimental fork.
20100402 16:47:43< boucman> (and such units do exist in custom factions)
20100402 16:48:05< Zarel> boucman: Hmm. All hits first, then take return damage? Would retain the KISS, but be even _more_ powerful.
20100402 16:48:14< mordante> _jbx_, can you add a screenshot for https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?15768 (a pictures says more as a 1000 words ;-) )
20100402 16:48:27< _jbx_> fabi: what experimental fork?  you mean that single angry rant thread?
20100402 16:48:32< Zarel> it makes me think of how first-strike works in M:TG. It's useful if you can kill the enemy with your strike, but otherise it's completely useless.
20100402 16:48:44< _jbx_> mordante: not atm, i'm at work
20100402 16:49:17< fabi> _jbx_, yes, the idea was born inside there.
20100402 16:50:07< Zarel> So, first-strike only matters when one of you dies during the process.
20100402 16:50:22< _jbx_> mordante: did you make the 3 drop-boxes for the player list in the lobby?
20100402 16:50:45< Zarel> Of course, if someone knows you have first strike, they'll probably attack with ranged so you can't use it.
20100402 16:50:59< Zarel> So it's mostly only applicable to situations when you're attacking.
20100402 16:51:26< Zarel> Oh, hmm, if we did it that way, first-strike would have an effect when attacking, too!
20100402 16:51:39< Zarel> I think it would be a pretty interesting ability if it worked like that.
20100402 16:52:09< _jbx_> mordante: i'd like to return to a single grouping of player list as the previous lobby was.  There is no need to separate the player list into unique drop boxes, it ends up being additional clicking for the user, and more difficult for find players 
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20100402 16:53:10< mordante> _jbx_, ilor did most/all of the ui design I did the underlaying gui2 engine
20100402 16:53:33< mordante> _jbx_, it would have been nice if this was brought up during the beta test :-(
20100402 16:53:42< mordante> test phase*
20100402 16:54:18< boucman> fabi: call it an experimental "branch" and it will be much less controversial than "fork" since that's more or less what you're trying to do :P
20100402 16:54:21< Zarel> Man, I noticed a bunch of usability issues with the lobby the last time I checked.
20100402 16:54:32< Zarel> But at that point, it was still too crashy for me to do any detailed evaluation.
20100402 16:54:41< Zarel> And I haven't been able to play Wesnoth since then.
20100402 16:54:47< Zarel> (~1.7.6)
20100402 16:55:06< boucman> Zarel: if you attack a unit with range because that unit had first strike, then first strike did work... as I said it's a psychological tool
20100402 16:55:17< Zarel> boucman: Mmm, true.
20100402 16:55:45< mordante> Zarel, well without feedback we assume all is fine, we asked a lot for feedback on that area during the betas
20100402 16:56:01< fabi> boucman, well, it depends on what YogiHH plans on the issue.
20100402 16:56:05< Zarel> Like I said, the issue was that I didn't have time for feedback.
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20100402 16:57:50< Zarel> Honestly, the last time I played a game of Wesnoth more than halfway through was 1.7.6-1.7.7-era.
20100402 16:58:19< zookeeper> awilkins, did you need something earlier?
20100402 16:58:41< mordante> Zarel, the problem is I hear more complains about the design of the UI the day after the release as during the betas...
20100402 16:59:03< fakedrake> do you guys have the same bug where the game wont quit?
20100402 16:59:15< fakedrake> even sudo killall doesnt do the trick...
20100402 16:59:15< timotei21> fabi, I have a question
20100402 16:59:16< Zarel> mordante: Well, I'm not one of them. I _still_ haven't played a game of Wesnoth more than halfway through, so I have nothing to comment on the 1.8 usability. ;)
20100402 16:59:17< mordante> Zarel, and it's not against you or something
20100402 16:59:29< fabi> timotei21, yes?
20100402 16:59:36< Zarel> I'm just sayin', the last time I tried it, it was pretty bad. :P
20100402 16:59:39< timotei21> in eclipse, when autocomplete activates, and you search in that list, you get the "documentation" of the metod/class/etc?
20100402 16:59:40< mordante> fakedrake, let me guess Ubuntu
20100402 16:59:45< fakedrake> yes...
20100402 17:00:00< timotei21> in my older eclipse, near the list, was also a small "window" that showed up the method/class comments
20100402 17:00:10< timotei21> but now it's gone, and I can't show it
20100402 17:00:19< mordante> fakedrake, https://gna.org/bugs/?15767 read this one (just the first one I can find about it)
20100402 17:00:54< Zarel> Hey, guys, out of all the OS-specific bugs, which OS would you say gets the most bugs?
20100402 17:00:56< fabi> timotei21, hmm, it's still working for me. You may have to adjust or even install the javadoc that comes with the jre.
20100402 17:01:17< _jbx_> mordante: i know, testing for this cycle was lackluster, I'm sorry for that
20100402 17:01:46< mordante> Zarel, I know it was bad, it was good and slow, optimizing it caused stability problems which mostly should be fixed
20100402 17:01:54-!- kait [~kait@213.134.186.163] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20100402 17:02:12< timotei21> the thing is, if I use the "view" javadoc, it shows up there:-?
20100402 17:02:17< fakedrake> mordante: thanx!!
20100402 17:02:36< mordante> Zarel, OS specific I guess Ubuntu with the hang bug and SDL 1.2.14 ;-)
20100402 17:02:48< timotei21> but nvm
20100402 17:03:06< Zarel> Yeah. For Warzone, it's Ubuntu with their PulseAudio configuration causing sound problems...
20100402 17:03:22< mordante> same here
20100402 17:03:36< fakedrake> mordante: is that not present in other debian-like or even unix-like?
20100402 17:03:49< fakedrake> oh
20100402 17:04:19< mordante> fakedrake, no it some braindead Ubuntu problem
20100402 17:04:23< Zarel> fakedrake: Well, I think Ubuntu was the only Debian-like that decided to switch from ALSA to Pulse that early.
20100402 17:04:31< Zarel> Back when Pulse was really unstable.
20100402 17:05:01< Zarel> Ubuntu in general isn't good for stability. Worst part is, they don't ever fix stability bugs; you have to wait until the next release. :(
20100402 17:05:21< Zarel> Although I'm told that's SOP for Linux; not Ubuntu-specific.
20100402 17:05:44< fakedrake> hmm
20100402 17:05:54< fakedrake> i didnt know that..
20100402 17:06:08< fakedrake> any ideas how to kill it without restarting x
20100402 17:06:23< fakedrake> wow
20100402 17:06:27< Zarel> kill -9 wesnoth ?
20100402 17:06:42< boucman> fakedrake: I think it disapears afert some time... (not sure, I have fixed that some time ago)
20100402 17:08:30< fakedrake> nop
20100402 17:08:54< fakedrake> ill restart x and see what happens
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20100402 17:11:54< fakedrake> ok that did the trick
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20100402 17:22:30< awilkins> zookeeper: oh hey sorry didn't see your reply
20100402 17:22:49< awilkins> zookeeper: yah I'm just working on my proposal and was wondering if you had time to look it over
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20100402 17:24:55< zookeeper> awilkins, looking..
20100402 17:25:16< awilkins> zookeeper: oh I'm sorry I would've linked it, I just wanted to see if you weren't busy
20100402 17:25:21< CIA-64> mordante * r41941 /trunk/src/gui/ (26 files in 2 dirs): 
20100402 17:25:21< CIA-64> Also register the window builders.
20100402 17:25:21< CIA-64> Still has an oddity that the linker seems too smart for its own good,
20100402 17:25:21< CIA-64> producing broken binaries... ah well a work-around is in place.
20100402 17:28:53< zookeeper> awilkins, well, i'm not much of a people person so i'll just focus on the technical aspects, and there's not too much details about that yet
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20100402 17:33:50< zookeeper> awilkins, but of course your macro error examples are good
20100402 17:34:07< mordante> loonycyborg, http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29391 any idea
20100402 17:34:33< awilkins> zookeeper: Would you suggest finding in the code where things go wrong now? And than propose to fix it from there?
20100402 17:35:01< awilkins> zookeeper: I was having trouble last night about how to go about finding the right kind of techinical details
20100402 17:35:50< zookeeper> awilkins, that sounds like a good approach to me
20100402 17:36:14< awilkins> zookeeper: okay, I'll look into that when I get off work. Thanks alot for the read : )
20100402 17:36:22< awilkins> and of course the feedback
20100402 17:37:40< zookeeper> awilkins, well, the thing is that (at least IMO, but i'm not a coder) the scope of that proposal is very narrow so maybe we should find some ways to expand it a bit (that is, either generally improving the preprocessor or improving debugging capabilities in general, not just in the preprocessor)
20100402 17:38:14< zookeeper> that's not to say it's your fault since the original idea wasn't that specific anyway
20100402 17:38:48< awilkins> zookeeper: that was my other fear, that the project wasn't enough work. Do you have any specific requests? I left the last month of my timeline openish to get communitry responses on how to better the WML programming in general.
20100402 17:39:17< awilkins> community*
20100402 17:40:57< zookeeper> awilkins, i'll have to think about that a bit, since i'm so accustomed to writing WML that i don't get too much problems with the preprocessor anymore :P
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20100402 17:42:38< awilkins> zookeeper: haha I'd imagine so. Maybe I'll try to create a scenario of my own or something tonight, and see what bugs me. Just afraid I'm running out of time for the deadline. 
20100402 17:45:06< zookeeper> awilkins, one possible idea i've sometimes had is an in-game WML viewer which would allow you to look at the whole WML document
20100402 17:45:27< zookeeper> since it'd be huge, it'd need a clever UI to allow one to actually navigate it
20100402 17:46:11< awilkins> zookeeper: I know the inspect dialog is something similar, but I agree to be able to view the actual WML and possibly edit it would be really awesome. 
20100402 17:46:28< zookeeper> yeah, it'd probably be merged into the inspect dialog, i'd imagine
20100402 17:47:05< Gambit> The inspect dialog already isn't big enough for some things.
20100402 17:47:41< awilkins> Gambit: big enough to fit text? or isn't powerful enough?
20100402 17:47:47-!- gats [~gats@188.168.21.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100402 17:47:53< Gambit> It can be at most 32k pixels long.
20100402 17:48:08< Gambit> Average sized maps stored in variables do not fit.
20100402 17:48:20< Gambit> ^^ Don't quote me on that number.
20100402 17:48:27< zookeeper> awilkins, i'd suggest asking sapient if he has any ideas
20100402 17:48:53< zookeeper> in the meanwhile i can try to think of something
20100402 17:49:34< awilkins> zookeeper: I'll be sure to ask him when I see him, thanks for the advice : )
20100402 17:50:30< zookeeper> IMO he's usually online at odd hours, though...
20100402 17:51:02< awilkins> heh I haven't gotten much sleep lately, so I'm sure I'll see him at some point.
20100402 17:58:46< loonycyborg> mordante: I tried 1.8.0 set to hebrew language in winxp in virtualbox and it works fine there.
20100402 18:01:18< mordante> loonycyborg, ok thanks
20100402 18:02:19-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20100402 18:02:42< awilkins> zookeeper: I'm thinking about posting a topic on the Wesnoth, WML Workshop forum, asking for peoples feedback on if they have any ideas on how to make their WML programming easier. Do you think that would be a bad idea? I don't want to open a can of worms.
20100402 18:04:06< zookeeper> awilkins, i think that's fine as long as you keep in mind that you'll get a lot of bad ideas too ;)
20100402 18:04:47< awilkins> zookeeper: yah, haha. I'm aware that will happen.
20100402 18:05:00< zookeeper> just ask for help in filtering the good from the bad and i'll be glad to help ;)
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20100402 18:07:49< awilkins> zoookeeper: yah I'll definitly ask if I get any. I'm hoping people do reply.
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20100402 18:10:19< awilkins> to many o's
20100402 18:10:19-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100402 18:12:13< timotei-temp> damn internet
20100402 18:12:38< awilkins> needs more tubes
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20100402 18:19:56< fabi> Sirp, what have you done in your branch?
20100402 18:21:15-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@193.34.191.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
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20100402 18:22:47< timotei21> sorry guys, I have some problems with my internet
20100402 18:26:46< Sirp> fabi: ummmm I don't have a branch. I started a whole new game reusing some Wesnoth resources. :)
20100402 18:26:56< fabi> oh
20100402 18:27:26< fabi> Sirp, Well, what was the new game about?
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20100402 18:32:15< fakedrake> Ivanovic: submited the patch
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20100402 18:39:58< Dwight> i just levelled up a master bowman from3 to 4.... and it said 'heroic unit unlocked' but when i highlighted him it still said level 3 :O(
20100402 18:40:37-!- timotei [~timotei21@188.24.5.233] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 18:41:24< Sirp> fabi: http://code.google.com/p/elensefar/source/checkout
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20100402 18:46:28< Dwight> any reason for that?
20100402 19:03:40< zookeeper> Dwight, ...what?
20100402 19:03:52< zookeeper> what the heck were you playing?
20100402 19:04:21-!- Zarel [~Zarel@warzone2100/developer/Zarel] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
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20100402 19:05:36< zookeeper> well, i'm assuming some add-on era/scenario, in which case likely "heroic units" don't imply higher levels, but something else
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20100402 19:29:16< mordante> I'm off bye
20100402 19:29:21< timotei> bye bye
20100402 19:29:33-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100402 19:33:08< Dwight> zookeeper - i was playing the first campaign on wesnoth for iphone
20100402 19:33:40< Dwight> the experience ticked over, and the achievement popped up, but it still said level 3 after selecting it
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20100402 19:40:50< _jbx_> Ivanovic: Soliton: how much longer will you keep the 1.6 server running?
20100402 19:41:53< _jbx_> someone is asking how much longer they have to finish a saved game
20100402 19:48:26< Gambit> Is there anyone in particular who's job it is to take the 1.8 screenshots?
20100402 19:50:58-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 81 bugs, 258 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100402 19:52:48< fakedrake> Sirp
20100402 19:53:19< fakedrake> the game doesnt compile
20100402 19:53:34< fakedrake> i ll take a look at it
20100402 19:53:38-!- fabi [~fabi@88-134-15-230-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100402 20:01:10< zookeeper> Dwight, umm, ok...i have no idea about that then.
20100402 20:01:49< Sirp> fakedrake: ?
20100402 20:04:21< fakedrake> Sirp: i tried to compile elensefar
20100402 20:04:39< fakedrake> and it threw a weird error
20100402 20:05:00< fakedrake> about sprintf
20100402 20:05:07< Sirp> fakedrake: you can give me the error and I can look at it, though no guarantees. :)
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20100402 20:08:23< fakedrake> In file included from src/formula.hpp:21,
20100402 20:08:24< fakedrake>                  from src/variant.cpp:11:
20100402 20:08:26< fakedrake> src/variant.hpp:132: error: expected ‘,’ or ‘...’ before ‘arg1’
20100402 20:08:27< fakedrake> src/variant.cpp: In member function ‘std::string variant::to_debug_string(std::vector<const game_logic::formula_callable*, std::allocator<const game_logic::formula_callable*> >*) const’:
20100402 20:08:29< fakedrake> src/variant.cpp:688: error: no matching function for call to ‘variant::sprintf(char [64], const char [5], const game_logic::formula_callable* const&) const’
20100402 20:08:30< fakedrake> src/variant.hpp:132: note: candidates are: void variant::sprintf(char*)
20100402 20:08:32< fakedrake> make: *** [variant.o] Error 1
20100402 20:08:50< fakedrake> which is a bit strange
20100402 20:09:04< fakedrake> cuz the code looks right at a first glance
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20100402 20:22:14< Sirp> fakedrake: yeah that error seems really weird to me. you could try putting :: in front of sprintf
20100402 20:24:44< fakedrake> Sirp: ?
20100402 20:24:59< fakedrake> where do you define sprintf?
20100402 20:25:00< Sirp> fakedrake: like ::sprintf(...)
20100402 20:25:16< Sirp> it's a standard function
20100402 20:25:20< Sirp> actually maybe that's the error
20100402 20:25:27< Sirp> add #include <stdio.h> to the top of the file
20100402 20:26:25< fakedrake> yes
20100402 20:27:45< fakedrake> i also had to make char[64]->char* to make it build
20100402 20:28:35< Dwight> hah this album im listening to claims that the number of wars fought between nations that both have at least 1 mcdonalds is zero
20100402 20:28:57< Sirp> that is a common claim.
20100402 20:29:46< Sirp> but it's not strictly true.
20100402 20:29:48< Dwight> apparenly a can of diet coke floats in water while a can of regular coke will sink
20100402 20:29:55< Dwight> why is it not strictly true?
20100402 20:30:20< Sirp> Serbia had McDonalds in it when it was attacked by the US in the late 90's.
20100402 20:31:41< Sirp> Panama also had a McDonalds in it when invaded by the US in 1989
20100402 20:32:21< Sirp> Lebanon and Israel also both have McDonalds in them, yet were involved in a conflict in 2006
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20100402 20:34:14< fakedrake> i think that "the number of wars fought between nations that both have at least 1 mcdonalds and none of them is US is zero" would have more chances of being true
20100402 20:34:35< Darkas> Crab_: hi
20100402 20:34:45< Crab_> hi, Darkas
20100402 20:35:24< fakedrake> Sirp: gud job
20100402 20:35:24< Darkas> Crab_: you said that it's not that easy to improve the recruitment, right?
20100402 20:35:39< fakedrake> you should do something about the game speed though
20100402 20:35:47< Sirp> fakedrake: even then it's not true
20100402 20:35:51< Sirp> Israel, Lebanon
20100402 20:35:55< Sirp> Russia, Georgia
20100402 20:36:01< Sirp> arguably, India and Pakistan
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20100402 20:36:07< Crab_> Darkas: yes
20100402 20:36:26< fakedrake> hmm i guess so
20100402 20:36:39< Darkas> ok, then I'll concentrate on the defence improvement I think
20100402 20:37:00< Sirp> also the bombing of Serbia was actually a combined NATO operation, not just the US
20100402 20:37:01< Crab_> Darkas: esp. if we want the AI to make use of multiple leaders, and to make sure that the recruitment works in case recruit lists change during recruitment (not-so-uncommon recruitment limiting macro works that way)
20100402 20:37:21< fakedrake> afk
20100402 20:37:28< Crab_> Darkas: so, yes, concentration of effort on a single area is a good idea.
20100402 20:37:37< Sirp> so the only war exclusion of the US excludes is the invasion of Panama
20100402 20:38:17< Darkas> Crab_: so then I was simply wrong :)
20100402 20:39:08< Darkas> I think I'll finish my wiki page the next few days (with the results from the forum thread)
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20100402 20:42:40< Crab_> Darkas: good, ping me when you'll want feedback from me
20100402 20:42:58< Darkas> Crab_: ok, thanks
20100402 20:48:56-!- RandomDragon [~RandomDra@c-24-5-148-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 20:50:25< CIA-64> zookeeper * r41942 /branches/1.8/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/scenarios/6_Towards_the_Caves.cfg: Fixed some remaining [animate_unit] problems.
20100402 20:54:44< CIA-64> zookeeper * r41943 /trunk/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/scenarios/6_Towards_the_Caves.cfg: Ported r41942 to trunk.
20100402 20:54:45< RandomDragon> I was just thinking that it would be nice to be able to have a healer unit heal the units around it during your turn, instead of attacking something....
20100402 20:54:54< RandomDragon> but would that be overpowered?
20100402 20:55:50< zookeeper> depends on the context
20100402 20:56:01< boucman> RandomDragon: probably
20100402 20:56:21< boucman> most healers are not good fighter and are only used for fighting when critically needed
20100402 20:56:43< RandomDragon> what if it was just a "heal one unit" thing, and used up the remainder of the turn?
20100402 20:56:51< boucman> by doubling their healing power (IIUC, you want to heal once at beginning of turn and once instead of attacking) you effectively double their power
20100402 20:56:52< Crab_> RandomDragon: think about a dwarven lord in a narrow opening, backed up by three healers, and attackable only by one enemy :)
20100402 20:57:12< RandomDragon> lol
20100402 20:57:18< RandomDragon> okay, good point
20100402 20:58:04< boucman> anybody has an up to date trunk ?
20100402 20:58:11< boucman> I have an assert at loading time...
20100402 21:02:28< zookeeper> anyone up for some 1.8 MP?
20100402 21:03:40< Dwight> release the kracken!
20100402 21:04:58< boucman> boy this looks good :)
20100402 21:05:04< Crab_> boucman: btw, what is src/animated.i ?
20100402 21:05:21-!- JustasJ [~4e3d8a6c@gateway/web/freenode/x-hnrlshkbwdoitqnk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 21:05:33< boucman> it's the body corresponding to src/animated.hpp
20100402 21:05:51< JustasJ> Hello?
20100402 21:05:58< boucman> however, since that .hpp only provides a template, it doesn't have a body strictly speaking
20100402 21:06:15< boucman> and when someone uses the template, he needs to include the whole body 
20100402 21:06:32< boucman> thus the .i which means this is a file to be included, but not a header file
20100402 21:06:36< boucman> JustasJ: hello
20100402 21:06:50< Crab_> boucman: ok, thanks for the explanation
20100402 21:06:53< JustasJ> I would like to join you at the summer of code.
20100402 21:07:24< Crab_> hi, JustasJ
20100402 21:07:42-!- gabba [~gabba@72.0.215.59] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 21:08:12< Crab_> JustasJ: have you already found a project in which you are interested ?
20100402 21:08:15< CIA-64> boucman * r41944 /trunk/ (51 files in 3 dirs): new terrain : desert castle, letters are Kd and Cd, thx to doofus-01
20100402 21:08:23< JustasJ> I have an idea of my own.
20100402 21:08:24< boucman> ^^^^^ enjoy
20100402 21:08:25< Crab_> hi, gabba
20100402 21:08:37< Crab_> JustasJ: interesting :) tell us more
20100402 21:09:01< JustasJ> I am thinking of making a history-based campaign. 
20100402 21:09:29< JustasJ> About the medieval history of Lithuania, to be precise.
20100402 21:09:41< boucman> JustasJ: just so I understand that project would be adding a campaign ? i.e purely wml ?
20100402 21:10:04< JustasJ> Well, sort of.
20100402 21:10:12< gabba> hi Crab_
20100402 21:10:42< Crab_> JustasJ: what campaigns/scenarios you've made before ? can we see some of them ?
20100402 21:11:15< JustasJ> No, I have always wanted to make them but couldn't force myself to make my own.
20100402 21:11:15< boucman> JustasJ: that's not a problem, just uncommon, so I wanted to make sure
20100402 21:11:37< Crab_> ok :)
20100402 21:11:46< JustasJ> I have a grasp of your wml though. It just stops working then I edit it. ;)
20100402 21:13:28< Crab_> JustasJ: so, well, you're welcome to try, although this will be quite unusual project. do you have any questions or need any help from us now ?
20100402 21:14:12< JustasJ> Right now? Well, I'm not sure. Do you think my project is worth your time?
20100402 21:15:42< zookeeper> ehm, well frankly i don't see a campaign about the medieval history of lithuania to be included in mainline
20100402 21:16:04< zookeeper> no matter how good quality it'd be
20100402 21:16:43< JustasJ> That's a shame.
20100402 21:16:51< JustasJ> But I can still try.
20100402 21:17:00< zookeeper> of course
20100402 21:17:22< Crab_> JustasJ: well, there's quite tough competition for places in GSoC. If you'll manage to prove that your proposal is one of the best, then it'll be definitely worth our time.
20100402 21:17:33< JustasJ> Ok.
20100402 21:18:11< JustasJ> Do I have to register to Wiki in order to edit your wiki pages? Or is it enough to have a forum account?
20100402 21:18:19< Crab_> JustasJ: you have to register
20100402 21:18:26< JustasJ> Ok. I will.
20100402 21:18:37< Crab_> JustasJ: good luck, then
20100402 21:19:21< Crab_> JustasJ: if you'll have questions, ask them. although if they're wml related, a 'wml workshop' forum would be a better place.
20100402 21:19:26< JustasJ> Btw, when I filled out my proposal for you, your questions were one of the best from all those I checked.
20100402 21:19:54< Crab_> thanks
20100402 21:21:18< JustasJ> Some organisations asked students to make a review of their CODE.
20100402 21:21:54-!- YogiHH [YogiHH@c204186.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20100402 21:22:08< YogiHH> hello
20100402 21:22:12< Crab_> hi, YogiHH
20100402 21:22:20< YogiHH> fabi: you were looking for me?
20100402 21:23:35< gabba> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Interface updated again :)
20100402 21:24:22< JustasJ> How do I copy a wiki page?
20100402 21:24:26< Crab_> gabba: yes, I've read the latest changes already 
20100402 21:24:34< gabba> Crab_: kk
20100402 21:24:44< Crab_> JustasJ: edit it, copy all the source, create a new page, paste.
20100402 21:26:07-!- Gambit [~Gambit@pa-67-234-116-244.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20100402 21:26:51< Crab_> gabba: am I right to understand that, on move,  you'll send replay and planned moves at the same time, and process them both in sync, to avoid the 'jumps' in planned moves ?
20100402 21:27:11< fabi> YogiHH, Yes, are you serious about the experimental fork?
20100402 21:27:30< gabba> Crab_: yes
20100402 21:27:37< YogiHH> fabi: yes, i am
20100402 21:27:37< Crab_> gabba: ok, good
20100402 21:27:55-!- endercoaster [~endercoas@adsl-99-50-182-84.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 21:28:02< endercoaster> Hey everyone
20100402 21:28:10< fabi> YogiHH, Well, set it up, I commit a feature and we do a first release ;-)
20100402 21:28:16< Crab_> boucman: I've got a fresh trunk, just compiled. still needed ?
20100402 21:28:26< Crab_> hi, endercoaster
20100402 21:28:32< boucman> no, I got around it
20100402 21:28:39< Crab_> ok
20100402 21:29:22-!- timotei [~timotei21@188.24.5.233] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 21:29:33< YogiHH> fabi: I'd like to get clear about the subforum issue first. I also think i should wait for a fork until the lobby is somehow stable ;)
20100402 21:30:07< Crab_> gabba: can you add a section explaining the effect of your changes on delayed shroud updates and on sighted events ?
20100402 21:30:58< Crab_> gabba: e.g., DSU will be removed, and the road will open to making sighted events reliable and useful
20100402 21:31:29< gabba> Crab_: good idea, I mentioned it in the advantages, but I didn't detail it
20100402 21:31:40< fabi> YogiHH, I think we should try to keep the fork in sync with the help of git-svn merge. 
20100402 21:32:02< gabba> aggh the wiki is slow 
20100402 21:32:45< gabba> Crab_: btw I finally managed to set up git-svn
20100402 21:32:49< Crab_> gabba: peak time. if it'll become even more slower, I'll set up caching for my includes :)
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20100402 21:33:06< Crab_> gabba: good. and how do you like the experience ?
20100402 21:33:22< Crab_> gabba: useful things like 'git stash', local history, etc :)
20100402 21:33:25< gabba> can't tell yet, finished setting it up last night :)
20100402 21:33:28< Crab_> :)
20100402 21:34:48< Crab_> gabba: and then, it'll be time for a calendar\timeline :)
20100402 21:35:06< gabba> Crab_: yup
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20100402 21:35:14< YogiHH> fabi: That might be a valid idea. If changes get more massive though, i guess taking the stable branch as a starting point and not synching with current development is more appropriate.
20100402 21:35:19< Crab_> gabba: it's very important for you to say for yourself, in your own words, about what you're going to do, and what you're not going to do during the gsoc.
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20100402 21:36:06< Crab_> gabba: to set out the scope of the project, and allow to get down to the details of subtasks which should be done.
20100402 21:36:40< gabba> Crab_: yes -- detailing the interface section was necessary before that, because most sub-tasks will come from there
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20100402 21:37:36< Crab_> gabba: yes. have you tried asking boucman to take a look at your proposal and say how hard it'll be to implement such interface/animation changes ?
20100402 21:37:46< timotei> uou, crab and other mentors... you really will have a VERY hard time to decide on what projects you will mentor
20100402 21:37:56< Crab_> timotei: indeed
20100402 21:38:03-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!]
20100402 21:38:13< timotei> I never thought this will be so "serious"
20100402 21:38:32< timotei> I mean, I've worked with teams of friends, and stuff, but never at such digree
20100402 21:38:34< boucman> timotei: it's heartbreaking every year... :(
20100402 21:38:39< timotei> s/digree/degree
20100402 21:38:45< Crab_> timotei: and we'd prefer if you make it even harder, by showing us your best  :)
20100402 21:38:45< gabba> Crab_: left a message with mordante about that yesterday, I haven't asked boucman yet
20100402 21:38:57< boucman> gabba: well, i'm around if you want
20100402 21:39:06< endercoaster> boucman: Would you mind looking at my proposal since it's for the Alliance System idea? http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC:_Endercoaster
20100402 21:39:30< gabba> ha ha, shotgunned
20100402 21:40:10< gabba> boucman: well, would you mind looking at MY proposal, since it's for the Wesnoth Whiteboard idea?  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Interface ;)
20100402 21:40:22< Crab_> :))
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20100402 21:40:48< endercoaster> boucman: look at gabba's first, I didn't mean to snipe his review
20100402 21:40:59< boucman> ok, i'll do both
20100402 21:41:06< Crab_> endercoaster: then I'll look at yours, too :)
20100402 21:41:16< gabba> boucman: you can do his first, I don't mind
20100402 21:41:23< endercoaster> Crab_: danke
20100402 21:41:40< fabi> YogiHH, Agreed, so why don't we fork 1.8. It will get a stable lobby soon and we can merge that changes in.
20100402 21:41:46-!- alexandr [sovaalexan@170-114-92-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100402 21:42:53< timotei> 100 points question: what process uses the most memory in any computer?
20100402 21:43:02< timotei> answer: firefox + flash =))
20100402 21:43:02< JustasJ> idle?
20100402 21:43:21< timotei> well, memory not processor
20100402 21:43:29< Crab_> timotei: virtual machines :)
20100402 21:43:31< gabba> firefox with 60 tabs open
20100402 21:43:48-!- Mythological [Mythologic@77.29.3.197] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 21:43:52< timotei> well, Crab_ , VMWare is the most intelligent VM ever...
20100402 21:44:08< timotei> and consumes only at most the started operating systems in it:D
20100402 21:44:23-!- allefant [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100402 21:44:28< timotei> anyways
20100402 21:44:36< YogiHH> fabi: I will think about it. It will have to wait until after easter, though, as i will be away until then.
20100402 21:44:41< Crab_> timotei: take eight of these :) and they'll bring even stuff like HP Z800 down...
20100402 21:44:44< JustasJ> A game made in Ruby would consume a lot too.
20100402 21:44:51< timotei> oops
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20100402 21:45:24< endercoaster> Windows Vista
20100402 21:45:44< Crab_> endercoaster: in a VM.. :)
20100402 21:45:51< JustasJ> We all know the Vista Joke: "You have moved your mouse. Restart to apply changes.'
20100402 21:45:57< Sirp> timotei: I have a program at work that takes around 40GB
20100402 21:46:08< endercoaster> Are you sure you want to move your mouse?
20100402 21:46:19< JustasJ> Even better.
20100402 21:46:38< timotei> lol, what's that?
20100402 21:46:54< boucman> gabba: just reading the interface part (since that's the part you asked) it's doable, though you'll have to add a new layer and layer management to the engine
20100402 21:46:59< Sirp> timotei: some kind of server. Can't really say more than that.
20100402 21:47:00-!- elias [~elias@allegro/developer/allefant] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20100402 21:47:04< timotei> oh, ok
20100402 21:47:42< boucman> nothing impossible to do, but it's a little work...
20100402 21:47:42< gabba> boucman: could you also look over the engine part while you are at it? It's shorter :)
20100402 21:47:45< Sirp> and then, well, when I worked at Google we had Bigtable distributed across a bunch of computers and would take terabytes across a whole cluster...
20100402 21:47:49< boucman> sure
20100402 21:48:17< JustasJ> Ruta-110: "Are you sure I have a mouse?"
20100402 21:48:28< timotei> Sirp, you worked at Google? that's so cool
20100402 21:49:52< Blarumyrran> He did, until he got fired because he used google servers to calculate random numbers for wesnoth
20100402 21:50:14< timotei> lol
20100402 21:50:19< endercoaster> But they were the best random numbers he could get
20100402 21:50:36< gabba> boucman: also, if you have some suggestions of something I can code to show that I'll be able to hande the difficult parts... Crab_ had the idea of implementing the simple merge algorithm, or the arrows display part (but that last one sounds relatively easy, just clone the footsteps code)
20100402 21:50:39< Crab_> Blarumyrran: ah, so, that's what those 40gb were used for....
20100402 21:50:43< Blarumyrran> yep
20100402 21:52:00< timotei> that should be a good proposal: implement a randomizer, the mighty randomizer
20100402 21:52:07< Crab_> endercoaster: ok, I've read  your application, and I'll briefly comment on the things that can be done to improve it. 1) we need to see your coding abilities more - coding a working prototype of is probably the best idea. 2) we need to see the interface sketches - for the interface for setting diplomacy options 
20100402 21:52:08< timotei> actually, we could steal that from CGAL :))
20100402 21:52:11< boucman> gabba: hmm, yes... you could do some sort of "always visible goto" 
20100402 21:52:12< Crab_> 3) it's a good thing to detail the original idea and complete a specification of available diplomacy options and their effect of the game rules, with the analysis of how the ai will 'play by the rules'
20100402 21:52:25< boucman> that would be a usefull feature and a good first step for your work....
20100402 21:52:38< boucman> and it might be a bit more tricky than you think...
20100402 21:53:44< boucman> endercoaster: something you could code, which is a sort of unavoidable first step would be studying the current alliance system, and replace the single "is allied" with a vector...
20100402 21:54:30< boucman> gabba: I think i'll read the whole proposal, from a UI point of view, not just display engine
20100402 21:54:45< gabba> boucman: would this "always visible goto" be very time consuming or not? I was also tempted by the "knowledge grilling session" Sirp mentioned yesterday, since the less time I steal from final exam preparation, the better
20100402 21:54:55< gabba> boucman: ok
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20100402 21:55:14< endercoaster> boucman: yeah... I definitely am going to need to rework the technical details of my proposal given that it's what I came up with absolutely no knowledge of the code base.
20100402 21:55:35< boucman> gabba: don't worry about the grilling session, it usually isn't very long
20100402 21:56:12< gabba> boucman: ok, no worry there
20100402 21:56:34< boucman> as for the coding, it's bigger than the patches you already submitted, but it should be a good training, and limited to a single area, so don't miss your finals for it, but it should be doable
20100402 21:56:53< boucman> (i.e if you start coding and realize it's getting out of hand, just drop it, no big deal)
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20100402 21:57:29< gabba> boucman: I suppose I can always show what I've done, if I have to drop it
20100402 21:57:49< boucman> sure
20100402 21:57:57< Crab_> of course
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20100402 21:59:10< boucman> gabba: would you remove gotos entirely ? (i.e is there any point in keeping them once your project is done)
20100402 21:59:34< gabba> boucman: yes, they would become multi-turn planned moves
20100402 21:59:41< boucman> k
20100402 21:59:49< pokhbocee> hey everybody
20100402 21:59:53< Crab_> boucman: note that the AI currently already (ab)uses gotos for multi-turn planned moves.
20100402 21:59:59< gabba> guess I should mention that too somewhere
20100402 22:00:00< Sirp> hi pokhbocee 
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20100402 22:00:37< Crab_> boucman: e.g., it doesn't set them after move, but it respects them if they've set via WML, and it stores them until the move is done
20100402 22:00:50< gabba> Crab_: Now that's a good idea, I'll force the AI to use planned moves to show it's master plan ;)
20100402 22:01:37< pokhbocee> Crab_: did you had time to take a look at my patch
20100402 22:01:38< Crab_> gabba: actually, after the gsoc, a potential development would be to 'suggest' moves to the ai
20100402 22:01:53< gabba> Crab_: seeing an ally AI "think" would be entertaining actually
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20100402 22:02:06< Crab_> gabba: heh
20100402 22:02:08< gabba> Crab_: ah, so that's another possible outcome for planned moves
20100402 22:02:24< Crab_> pokhbocee: no, will take a look now. 
20100402 22:02:41< gabba> Crab_: this project really plugs nicely in several places
20100402 22:03:22< Crab_> and cleans up a lot of 'messy code' 
20100402 22:03:45< boucman> endercoaster: I see your questionaire, but where is the proposal itself ?
20100402 22:04:09< endercoaster> boucman: I suppose I really need to expand that initial paragraph
20100402 22:04:17< boucman> oh, ok
20100402 22:05:45< Crab_> pokhbocee: not all 'not our' units are enemies. there can be allied sides, as well
20100402 22:06:04< Crab_> pokhbocee: e.g., if we're side 1, and we're allied with side 2, then units of side 2 will not be enemies
20100402 22:06:30< boucman> gabba: first suggestion, in your proposal, selecting will create a planned move, and shift-select a real move
20100402 22:06:33< gabba> Crab_: about gotos, should I understand that the AI depends on them, and is it something that could be removed easily?
20100402 22:06:53< boucman> you should switch these two, the "normal" move should be the default one, from a usability point of view
20100402 22:07:16< Crab_> gabba: AI doesn't depend on them, but some WML authors are used to telling the AI to move units to specified location via setting a goto
20100402 22:07:16< boucman> (having a "planning mode" check box could be a good idea, but the real thing should be the easy one
20100402 22:07:52< pokhbocee> Crab_: ok ill fix it
20100402 22:08:08< gabba> boucman: if planned moves aren't the default, people will be put off because moves aren't undoable anymore
20100402 22:08:25< boucman> hmm
20100402 22:08:48< gabba> boucman: but I'll provide an option to invert the behavior: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WesnothWhiteboard_Gabba#Options
20100402 22:08:57< Crab_> boucman: well, I think that the mode should determine the default behavior. e.g., if 'planning mode' is on, then click is planned move, shift+click is normal move.
20100402 22:09:09< boucman> I still don't like the idea, though I see your point. I'll read on
20100402 22:09:16< Crab_> boucman: and if it's off, then click is normal move, shift+click is planned move.
20100402 22:09:22< boucman> Crab_: yes, that would make sense
20100402 22:09:38< Crab_> boucman: no extra options for that, since we kill Delayed Shroud Updates. +1-1=0
20100402 22:09:43< gabba> boucman, Crab_: anyways that's something we can decide once it's implemented and we can test it
20100402 22:09:59< boucman> indeed
20100402 22:10:28 * boucman thinks DSU should never have been in the contextual menu, it should have been a checkbox somewhere in the interface
20100402 22:10:56< Crab_> pokhbocee: also, note that you should get a list of units near our unit via using a SUF for that in wesnoth.get_units()
20100402 22:11:15< gabba> a large checkbox in the right-hand column :)
20100402 22:11:31< Crab_> pokhbocee: the bigger part of the work you can delegate to the standard unit filter, the better.
20100402 22:11:44< Crab_> ( wesnoth.get_units() accepts an argument for that )
20100402 22:11:57< pokhbocee> Crab_: suf?  
20100402 22:12:15< Crab_> pokhbocee: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/StandardUnitFilter
20100402 22:12:26< Crab_> which can include a http://wiki.wesnoth.org/StandardLocationFilter
20100402 22:14:37< fakedrake_> Crab_: have u read any of the preprocessor code?
20100402 22:14:38< Crab_> pokhbocee: and, in helper.nearest_unit, you recalculate helper.distance_between more than necessary.
20100402 22:15:46< Crab_> fakedrake_: yes, I've looked through it a few times
20100402 22:15:53< pokhbocee> Crab_: oh i see ill deal with that too
20100402 22:16:13< timotei> ok guys, I gotta go
20100402 22:16:15< timotei> good night
20100402 22:16:20< Crab_> timotei: bye
20100402 22:16:35< pokhbocee> Crab_: but i dont understnad the thing you said earlier
20100402 22:16:43< Crab_> pokhbocee: about what?
20100402 22:16:44< pokhbocee> list of units near our unit?
20100402 22:16:49< pokhbocee> near means
20100402 22:16:52< pokhbocee> adjacent?
20100402 22:17:16< boucman> gabba: stupid question, what do you mean by "unit dismiss"
20100402 22:17:16< gabba> timotei: bye
20100402 22:17:28< Crab_> pokhbocee: by your definition: ai.close_enemies  'Returns the enemy units that are within the given range surrounding ai_unit'
20100402 22:17:30< gabba> which section?
20100402 22:17:38< Crab_> pokhbocee: you have a 'range' as a parameter.
20100402 22:17:44< pokhbocee> yes
20100402 22:17:51< pokhbocee> you dont want it?
20100402 22:17:52< boucman> interface/features/dismiss
20100402 22:17:53< Crab_> so, near = 'within that range'
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20100402 22:18:01< pokhbocee> oh yeah
20100402 22:18:16< Crab_> pokhbocee: so, all is ok with it, range is needed:)
20100402 22:18:29< pokhbocee> there is already a get_units that can do that?
20100402 22:18:47< fakedrake_> Crab_: its ok i got it
20100402 22:18:48< Crab_> get_units accepts a parameter, a lua representation of a SUF
20100402 22:18:50< gabba> boucman: well, you can dismiss units in wesnoth isn't it? Or (that would be too funny) is it a feature I imagined?
20100402 22:18:51< pokhbocee> ohh i see
20100402 22:18:56< pokhbocee> [filter_adjacent_location]
20100402 22:19:03< boucman> gabba: you imagined it :)
20100402 22:19:13-!- timotei [~timotei21@188.24.5.233] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
20100402 22:19:14< pokhbocee> ahaha i wasted my time :D
20100402 22:19:25< boucman> it would be too easy to dismiss a useless unit to not have to pay upkeep
20100402 22:19:35< gabba> boucman: lol, that's embarassing
20100402 22:19:43< boucman> no big deal
20100402 22:19:57< gabba> boucman: I must have been thinking about removing units from the recall list
20100402 22:20:20< boucman> gabba: well, I don't think there is much point in planning a recall list dismiss...
20100402 22:20:45< gabba> boucman: indeed -- one less feature to code, I'm happy :P
20100402 22:20:55< boucman> but yes, that feature exists, you might want to rename the section to avoid confusion
20100402 22:20:56< Crab_> pokhbocee: you can ask zookeeper to help/guide you if you'd have problems writing that filter
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20100402 22:22:06< boucman> gabba: validating a move before doing it is a no-brainer... however detecting conflicts is probably something very complicated to do, my advice would be not to including in the "basic" proposal, only add it if you have time
20100402 22:22:08< Crab_> pokhbocee: I'd say, you have to use a lua representation of [filter_location] subtag, to get a list of units which stand on locations which are within radius 'range' from x,y of your unit.
20100402 22:22:32< gabba> boucman: here you go, all references to "dismiss" cleaned up... lol
20100402 22:22:33< Crab_> boucman: 'conflict detection' is essential for usability
20100402 22:22:55< Crab_> boucman: AI code can be reused
20100402 22:23:09< boucman> Crab_: well, there is so many way you might want to plan an undoable move that I think it's simpler just not to detect conflicts...
20100402 22:23:23< Crab_> boucman: we need to detect conflicts as we execute move
20100402 22:23:30< boucman> from killed units changing the way ZoC go around, moving on an occupied hex after killing unit etc...
20100402 22:23:41< boucman> Crab_: yes, as we execute, 
20100402 22:23:51< Crab_> boucman: e.g., we must stop and mark a 'conflict' if a previously scheduled move becomes impossible
20100402 22:23:51< boucman> my complaint was about detecting at the planning phase
20100402 22:24:23< gabba> boucman: well, at least what I call "gamestate conflicts" are essential, but what you don't like is detecting conflict between two planned moves?
20100402 22:24:24< Crab_> boucman: well, we can 'try' to detect soft conflicts like these. e.g., locations which have two units moving into them can be spotted very easily
20100402 22:24:27< pokhbocee> Crab_: ok ty, btw after this, i would like to work on something more challengin. i know interface is not ready but i would like to use some stub methods, and implement, one of main features ai, or various algorithims to choose between different kind of moves ( to attack or retreat etc.), and search methotds within the possible attack moves. etc. etc.
20100402 22:24:28< boucman> Crab_: you mean at the moment we attempt that move, or at the moment another commited move makes it impossible ?
20100402 22:25:30< boucman> gabba: it's not so much that I don't like it, it's more that I believe it's "very hard" to get right, and that I think that your proposal would be good enough without that feature which would be huge to implement
20100402 22:25:31< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes, you should pick an area you're interested in, e.g., Darkas picked 'defense', and try to teach ai something related to it
20100402 22:25:33< pokhbocee> Crab_: because i want to use my ai background, and also to show it, before the deadline. After that i finish the rest of the interface.
20100402 22:26:03< Crab_> boucman: say, P1 has scheduled a move to 34,34  and P2 has scheduled his move to 34,34, too. we can mark this hex as 'potential conflict', without preventing anything.
20100402 22:26:22< Crab_> (P1 and P2 are allies)
20100402 22:27:05< gabba> boucman: ^maybe I'm naïve, but this doesn't sound too complicated: iterate over all planned moves and mark pairs that target the same hex as "soft conflicts"
20100402 22:27:11< Crab_> gabba: +1
20100402 22:27:21< boucman> Crab_: yes, we could, as I said it's more that detecting potential conflict is tricky and means rewriting half of the game logic, it's more the size of the task for something I don't think is that usefull (we have prevention at exec time, and players do know the game rules)
20100402 22:27:53< boucman> gabba: detecting all the different sorts of soft conflicts is the hard part...
20100402 22:28:10< Crab_> boucman: detecting 80% of them is very easy, and is a good thing to do
20100402 22:28:16< boucman> esp when there is an ennemy turn between the planning and your actual turn
20100402 22:29:00< boucman> well, gabba, it's your proposal, so you decide, I'm just pointing out that this proposal is something already huge, but if you think you can do it...
20100402 22:29:06< gabba> boucman:I think you're imagining something more complicated than what me and Crab_ envision
20100402 22:29:12< boucman> ok
20100402 22:29:32< gabba> boucman: the idea was simply to tell the player "hey, you/your ally already defined a move for this location"
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20100402 22:29:43< Crab_> gabba, boucman: well, let's explicitly scale it down to "detect potential conflicts of the kind: 'movement/recall/recruitment of 2+ units in a single hex'" :)
20100402 22:29:45< gabba> boucman: this said I agree with you it's not a core feature
20100402 22:29:46< endercoaster> boucman: I grepped src for "is_allied" and got nothing
20100402 22:29:57< gabba> boucman:  Crab_ is more keen on it than me
20100402 22:30:05< Crab_> endercoaster: try is_enemy :)
20100402 22:30:14< boucman> endercoaster: loo into team.hpp, my guess is that it's a good place to start
20100402 22:30:39< endercoaster> Crab, boucman: thanks
20100402 22:31:34< boucman> gabba: actually, if you do this as a "local feature" only, that would already be a great thing (and a good intermediary step for evaluation, from a timeline point of view)
20100402 22:32:07< zookeeper> pokhbocee, eh, what is it that you need?
20100402 22:32:17< zookeeper> too much log to read
20100402 22:32:22< gabba> boucman: you mean, gotos set for the same hex? do they come up?
20100402 22:32:43< boucman> gabba: where did I say that ?
20100402 22:32:50< Crab_> zookeeper: SUF "find all units within R hexes of x,y"
20100402 22:33:10< gabba> boucman: I thought you were saying it would be a preliminary coding task
20100402 22:33:34< gabba> boucman: so, what do you mean by "local feature"?
20100402 22:33:36< Crab_> zookeeper: I was thinking that a [filter_location] would work here
20100402 22:33:56< Crab_> boucman: yes, a local feature, a simple gui marker
20100402 22:33:59< gabba> boucman: don't transmit planned moves over the network?
20100402 22:34:12< pokhbocee> zookeeper: using filter to get the units in an area of given range
20100402 22:35:06< boucman> gabba: yes, don't transmit, just mark on screen + execute with "c" allow order changing... everything except seeing your ally's moves
20100402 22:35:27< boucman> gabba: i'm at the "ordering" now, a couple of remarks/ideas
20100402 22:35:29< gabba> boucman: ok, makes sense
20100402 22:36:12< boucman> 1) i'm not convinced that "commit all" will be used, lots of actions have random results and all good players will want to stop and analyze whenever that happens
20100402 22:36:27< boucman> (recruiting, fighting, ambush comes to mind) 
20100402 22:37:02< boucman> so having a "commit next planned" makes sense, (could be pressed repetitively) but i'm more dubious about "commit all"
20100402 22:37:26< Crab_> boucman: commit all can be coded to stop after a first random event
20100402 22:37:41< boucman> 2) it would probably be easier to have numbering per side, rather than total, it also makes more sense since there would be an ennemy turn in the middle
20100402 22:38:06< Crab_> boucman: fully agree about 'numbering per side'
20100402 22:38:07< boucman> Crab_: that would work too, but I think commit next is simpler from a cognitive point of view
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20100402 22:38:38< Crab_> boucman: yes. 'commit all' is not a required thing
20100402 22:38:50< zookeeper> "find all units within R hexes of x,y"? [filter] [filter_location] x,y=10,10 radius=2 
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20100402 22:39:18< zookeeper> doesn't that work?
20100402 22:39:21< gabba> boucman: 1) 'commit next' is a good idea -- what I wanted to avoid is having to hover over every unit individually to commit moves
20100402 22:39:23< Crab_> zookeeper: thanks, yes. pokhbocee ^
20100402 22:39:52< pokhbocee> zookeeper: do i use it like get_units({[filter] [filter_location] x,y=10,10 radius=2 })
20100402 22:39:56< pokhbocee> ?
20100402 22:40:06< Crab_> pokhbocee: use standard rules for conversion to lua syntax
20100402 22:40:26< pokhbocee> Crab_: ?
20100402 22:40:28< Crab_> pokhbocee: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML#Encoding_WML_objects_into_Lua_tables
20100402 22:40:30< gabba> boucman: 2) I was afraid numbering per-side would lead to some visual confusion between your units and the ally's
20100402 22:40:44< boucman> gabba: you shouldn't talk of undoing, "clearing planned move" woule be easier to read
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20100402 22:41:11< gabba> boucman: "clearing planned move" : good point, I found the language confusing myself
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20100402 22:41:59< boucman> why do you delete planned moves on end turn ?
20100402 22:42:24< gabba> boucman: 2) plus, having global numbering reminds you of the turn order if there are many allies
20100402 22:42:55< Crab_> gabba: but if you add a planned move, all your allies will suffer...
20100402 22:43:11< Crab_> gabba: as the numbers for all their moves will have to change
20100402 22:43:33< gabba> boucman: deleting planned moves: hmm. One of the reasons was the "ghost feature" dismiss that complicated thing, maybe there's no reason for that anymore
20100402 22:43:47< gabba> Crab_: no, since it's purely a display thing
20100402 22:44:16< boucman> ok, give it some thought, then
20100402 22:44:27< Crab_> gabba: well, the suffering is because numbers on display change
20100402 22:44:30< gabba> Crab_: err wait, you're right
20100402 22:45:21< gabba> Crab_: ok, so no suffering for allies then
20100402 22:45:27< pokhbocee> zookeeper: get_units({x,y=10,10, radius = 2})  ??? is it like this
20100402 22:45:50< gabba> boucman: you're very thorough, good thing I asked you to review the proposal!
20100402 22:45:53< zookeeper> i don't know, probably not
20100402 22:45:59< boucman> :)
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20100402 22:46:26< Crab_> pokhbocee: of course not. you've not mentioned filter_location at all
20100402 22:47:29< pokhbocee> so i put them in between filter_location tag?
20100402 22:47:42< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes, using the lua syntax for that tag
20100402 22:48:07< pokhbocee>  [filter] [filter_location] x,y=10,10 radius=2 [/filter_location]  [/filter] 
20100402 22:48:26< Crab_> pokhbocee: the top [filter] is not required
20100402 22:48:41< Crab_> pokhbocee:  I'd try something like       get_units({ {"filter_location", {x=10,y=10, radius = 2}}} ) 
20100402 22:48:51< Crab_> pokhbocee: but I might be wrong, too, haven't checked.
20100402 22:49:10< pokhbocee> Crab_: ill try both and see which one works
20100402 22:49:33< Crab_> you can try to set variables from lua, and then check them in :inspect ;)
20100402 22:49:52< Crab_> then, you'll be able to see the WML config which you've produced 
20100402 22:51:26< pokhbocee> btw it returns units right not location?
20100402 22:51:37< Crab_> yes, wesnoth.get_units returns units
20100402 22:51:57< Crab_> that's why we needed a filter_location subtag - to filter by locations from a SUF
20100402 22:52:25< boucman> gabba: network design suggestion
20100402 22:52:37< gabba> boucman: yup
20100402 22:52:49< boucman> I think that validation of planned moves should be done locally, and the planned moves sent once validated
20100402 22:53:09< pokhbocee> Crab_: i couldnt find the documentation about usafe of inspect
20100402 22:53:10< boucman> and assumed to be validated when received (conflict markers are sent through the network too)
20100402 22:53:33< boucman> this way there is only a single authority for each side, remote sides only do the display
20100402 22:53:36< gabba> boucman: isn't what my sequence diagram suggests? that's what I had in mind
20100402 22:53:46< boucman> and if a side sends incorrect planning, it's less of a big deal
20100402 22:53:47< Crab_> pokhbocee: well, http://wiki.wesnoth.org/InterfaceActionsWML#.5Binspect.5D
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20100402 22:54:19< boucman> gabba: indeed, I read your diagram incorrectly, sorry
20100402 22:54:21< Crab_> pokhbocee: or, :inspect command from in-game console. works only in debug mode (:debug)
20100402 22:54:34< gabba> boucman: np
20100402 22:54:50< Crab_> boucman: no, confict markers are to be calculated locally
20100402 22:55:10< Crab_> boucman: otherwise there'll be potential glitches
20100402 22:55:21< boucman> ok
20100402 22:55:54< Crab_> boucman: our validation is fairly simple and can be done locally after each done/received update of planned moves
20100402 22:56:09< boucman> k
20100402 22:56:18< gabba> Crab_, boucman: gamestate conflicts on the sender, and "soft conflicts" locally was what I had in mind
20100402 22:56:47< Crab_> gabba: well, I think that gamestate conflicts on the 'player whose turn it is' :)
20100402 22:56:47< gabba> boucman: but since the game is in sync, we can calculate them anywhere really
20100402 22:57:17< Crab_> gabba: no, the game is not in perfect sync all the time :)
20100402 22:57:37< gabba> Crab_: yes, he can have unsent replays, argh
20100402 22:58:19< Crab_> gabba: that's not a problem for us, since we'll get to the same synced result, no matter the order of updates and their timing..
20100402 22:59:59< Crab_> and if allied planned moves are displayed incorrectly for a small amount of time, well, that's not so important, they'll sync very quickly
20100402 23:00:00< gabba> Crab_: yes. either way, does the acting player want to see if his allies defined invalid/conflicting moves, or only conflicts on his own moves?
20100402 23:00:36< Crab_> gabba: well, let us try 'let him see all conflicts', and then see how it's look like
20100402 23:00:47< Crab_> gabba: after all, the point is sharing information...
20100402 23:00:47< gabba> Crab_: sounds good to me
20100402 23:01:55< gabba> Crab_:  think I need to change my sequence diagram, then?
20100402 23:02:14< Crab_> it's better to keep things up-to-date
20100402 23:02:21< gabba> indeed
20100402 23:02:58< pokhbocee> Crab_: about the behaviours im gonna implement next
20100402 23:03:11< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes ?
20100402 23:03:40< pokhbocee> Crab_: i would like to do it in a way it will consider the next n (as much as possible) moves
20100402 23:03:55< pokhbocee> but it may require huge performence
20100402 23:04:02< gabba> hey by the way its 23 Celsius here in Montréal, and yesterday temperature was pretty close to zero
20100402 23:04:03< pokhbocee> do you want it that way 
20100402 23:04:13< Crab_> well, I think that even n=2 will bring improvements
20100402 23:04:20< Crab_> so, it's worth trying.
20100402 23:04:20< pokhbocee> maybe by lowering depth we can solve
20100402 23:04:40< gabba> gabba: people are walking around in T-Shirts and sunglasses, yesterday it was coats and scarfs 8)
20100402 23:04:42< pokhbocee> after we implement heuristics, we can increase the depth
20100402 23:05:35< gabba> gabba: too bad it's gonna be back to cold weather next week
20100402 23:05:35< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes, worth trying. I suppose that you've read http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WhyWritingAWesnothAIIsHard, too.
20100402 23:05:53< Crab_> pokhbocee: do you need any information from me to implement it ?
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20100402 23:06:00< pokhbocee> no i havent but ill read
20100402 23:06:12< pokhbocee> i have been studying on various ai topics for a year
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20100402 23:06:28< pokhbocee> so i will just need help of good players
20100402 23:06:50< Crab_> (also note that AI already considers up to 6 attacks on a same target)
20100402 23:06:51< pokhbocee> to implement heuristics. since im not that good player :D
20100402 23:07:14< CIA-64> esr * r41945 /trunk/src/ (preferences_display.cpp video.cpp video.hpp): 
20100402 23:07:14< CIA-64> Committing patch #1578: Resolution problem fix.
20100402 23:07:14< CIA-64> Fixes bug #15773: in windowed resolution for 1024x600 monitors is
20100402 23:07:14< CIA-64> 1024x768 if the video card supports it.
20100402 23:07:28< pokhbocee> you mean 6 turns or 6 possible attacks in one turn (due to hex shape)
20100402 23:07:49< Crab_> pokhbocee: 6 possible attacks on a single enemy unit in one turn
20100402 23:08:28< pokhbocee> oh yeah ty.
20100402 23:08:52< pokhbocee> ok ill write an algorithim tonite and tomorrow, and than we can discuss over it
20100402 23:09:02< pokhbocee> if u want
20100402 23:09:11< Crab_> yes, I'd be pleased to see it work.
20100402 23:09:31< pokhbocee> of course :D actually it was my main reason to  be here.
20100402 23:09:37< Crab_> ;))
20100402 23:09:50< pokhbocee> to implement all of them. its gonna be lots of fun
20100402 23:09:54< pokhbocee> i gotta go now
20100402 23:09:56< pokhbocee> cu later
20100402 23:10:00< pokhbocee> cu everybody
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20100402 23:10:05< Crab_> bye, pokhbocee
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20100402 23:43:38< billynux> hi all
20100402 23:43:47< billynux> I'm applying through GSoC
20100402 23:43:52< billynux> I completed the form
20100402 23:43:58< Crab_> hi, billynux
20100402 23:44:01< billynux> and I'm looking at the code right now!
20100402 23:44:02< billynux> hi Crab_ 
20100402 23:44:12< billynux> I'm reading the gui2 design paper
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20100402 23:44:19< Crab_> billynux: that's good :) 
20100402 23:44:23< billynux> a couple of questions
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20100402 23:44:54< billynux> 1. Should I tackle some of the problems you posted at the site?
20100402 23:45:01< billynux> (example/test problems)
20100402 23:45:56< billynux> 2. Just a shortcut... and I'm sorry to bother, but... the network stack rewrite using boost::asio refers to the player_network.?pp files?
20100402 23:47:59< billynux> The online Doxygen doc. is a little to the point, and it's complicated to get the big-picture, as usual :|
20100402 23:48:29< Crab_> yes, you should 1) discuss your proposal with us 2) write down technical description of the things you're going to do at the wiki 3) show how you code, fix some bugs, gain commit access
20100402 23:50:14-!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: bah]
20100402 23:50:19< billynux> all right, I intend to do that, although I regret starting late!
20100402 23:50:29< Crab_> billynux: there's still time
20100402 23:50:54< billynux> I know... I'm working on it... procrastination is a tough feat to overcome!
20100402 23:50:58< Crab_> billynux: the point is to rewrite a network stack, not rewrite a wesnoth server. so, existing server code such as player_network.?pp can be kept (but various things might be changed to accomodate for a new object model)
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20100402 23:51:42< billynux> all right... so it is not a module rewrite as much as it is a module addition? and subsequent adaptation of existing code?
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20100402 23:52:25< Crab_> billynux: it's rewrite of a module, but it's more like "replace SDL.net by boost::asio, and refactor the code somewhat to allow to split it off from wesnoth"
20100402 23:52:25< billynux> I'm just now looking at the code, and my PC is still compiling...
20100402 23:52:46< Crab_> billynux: so, the MP server higher-level logic can/should stay in place
20100402 23:52:51< billynux> all right!
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20100402 23:53:58< billynux> yes... I don't want to ask dumb questions before RTFM... but where are those SDL.net files? (so as not to look for the SDL code all around)
20100402 23:57:14< billynux> well... the gui2 design doc. doesn't help much with the overall design picture -> going to Doxygen doc.
20100402 23:57:28< Crab_> billynux: see src/network.hpp, src/network_worker.hpp
20100402 23:58:22< billynux> thx!
--- Log closed Sat Apr 03 00:00:07 2010