--- Log opened Sat Apr 03 00:00:07 2010
20100403 00:01:56< Crab_> billynux: ok, I've looked through your wiki page. I see that you'll need some time to familiarize with the code, so, take your time, and just ping me (or any other mentors) when you'll need any information, or when you'll want me (or any other mentors) to review your proposal.
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20100403 00:03:21< Crab_> billynux: and, on you wiki page, I want to see your opinion on the questions  http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SoC_Ideas_Network_Stack_Rewrite#Questions 
20100403 00:03:21< billynux> great, thanks!
20100403 00:03:35< billynux> Ok, will do.
20100403 00:04:43< billynux> I'll tackle them once I have a better picture of the work that has to be done.
20100403 00:04:49< Crab_> billynux: and also note that you'll need to catch up a bit, to demonstrate that your proposal is a good one, compared to others - maybe even do some prototyping.
20100403 00:05:01< Crab_> billynux: but, there's still time.
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20100403 00:05:04< billynux> yes, i know
20100403 00:05:16< Crab_> so, good luck to you :)
20100403 00:05:21< billynux> thanks man!
20100403 00:05:53< billynux> (what a great idea from google...)
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20100403 00:45:45< fakedrake> hello
20100403 00:45:59< fakedrake> AI086: r u there?
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20100403 01:26:32< shadowmaster> mordante: I said *I* was going to complain
20100403 01:27:05< shadowmaster> "as designed" doesn't necessarily equal "as it should", anyway
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20100403 01:51:03-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 81 bugs, 258 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20100403 03:25:37< awilkins> Hey does anyone know where the log file is stored when your game fails to load due to a bad .cfg file?
20100403 03:28:51< Shakey> stderr.txt in the main directory
20100403 03:30:14< awilkins> Shakey: hmmm I don't seem to have this file. 
20100403 03:35:25< Gambit> What OS?
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20100403 03:38:49< awilkins> Gambit: linux
20100403 03:39:23< Gambit> run wesnoth from terminal.
20100403 03:39:43< awilkins> Gambit: okay
20100403 03:41:02< awilkins> Gambit: Am I supposed to do a command in game? or does this generate the file?
20100403 03:41:20< Gambit> I dunno. According to the wiki it gets outputted to the terminal.
20100403 03:41:45< Gambit> I don't think the errors are actually stored in a file on linux.
20100403 03:43:33< awilkins> Gambit: ah okay. Someone on the forum had mentioned a log file being more accurate than what was printed on screen. Wasn't sure what they were talking about.
20100403 03:43:37< awilkins> Gambit: thanks for the help
20100403 03:44:27< Gambit> Yeah it makes a log file on windows that has the actual error.
20100403 03:45:03< awilkins> Gambit: hmm I'm still getting the wrong line number, in my log. 
20100403 03:46:00< Gambit> How do you know it's the wrong line number? Did you intentionally set up an error as a test?
20100403 03:46:28< awilkins> Gambit: yes exactly. I'm trying to figure out ways to make WML debugging easier.
20100403 03:47:17< awilkins> Gambit: basically it looks for a closing quote all the way until the end of the file. Without finding it reports the error at the end of the file.
20100403 03:49:08< Gambit> Yeah because the next opening quote gets seen as the last group's closing quote all the way to the end.
20100403 03:49:47< Gambit> Dunno. I didn't think it was possible for stderr to be wrong. :o
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20100403 03:50:56< Gambit> Pastebin your scenario, I'll run it on windows.
20100403 03:52:51< awilkins> it's actually in my student proposal wiki: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=SummerOfCodeProposal_Awilkins
20100403 03:53:06< awilkins> under example of a Macro Error
20100403 03:54:55< Gambit> Oh so you already know for sure it's an error. xD
20100403 03:55:11 * Gambit was trying to help you fix it :P lol
20100403 03:55:31< Gambit> Sounds cool though.
20100403 03:56:26< awilkins> Gambit: haha, I really appreciate the help though : p I'm afraid it's not enough work so I'm searching around other ideas for what people would like to see for making WML debugging easier.
20100403 03:57:01< Gambit> The one thing that comes to mind to make the quote tracking more accurate is so that it stops looking for the closing quote at each keyword.
20100403 03:57:28< Gambit> eg speaker="narrator message="Hi mom!" it would have stopped looking at message=
20100403 03:58:08< Gambit> Though speaker=narrator doesn't actually require quotes.
20100403 03:59:55< awilkins> Gambit: yah that would definitely be a good idea, make sure things stay nested.
20100403 04:00:41< Gambit> Err the equals sign rather since those aren't used in any messages, but those words might be some day.
20100403 04:00:46< Gambit> Anyway good luck.
20100403 04:02:43< awilkins> Gambit: right you could reserve = as a symbol and create an alternative like %eq if you want to print out an equals sign.
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20100403 04:04:46< Gambit> Current syntax would be like =|
20100403 04:04:54< Gambit> I think.
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20100403 04:07:04< Gambit> Or at least that's how we escape dollar signs.
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20100403 04:08:27< shadowmaster> huh.
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20100403 04:09:15< awilkins> hmm?
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20100403 04:10:12< shadowmaster> awilkins: is there any particular reason you don't use wiki  code blocks in your proposal page?
20100403 04:10:34< shadowmaster> it's a bit hard for me to differentiate the stderr and code parts from your text. :)
20100403 04:10:55< shadowmaster> (besides, the wiki also messes up the formatting in the stderr lines)
20100403 04:11:45< awilkins> shadowmaster: you know there is no good reason hah
20100403 04:11:52< awilkins> shadowmaster: I'll look into how to do that
20100403 04:12:04< shadowmaster> just preceding every code or stderr line with two whitespaces
20100403 04:12:14< shadowmaster>   like this
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20100403 04:13:40< awilkins> that explains why when I was looking at Crab's proposal I didn't see any special markings. 
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20100403 04:17:18< awilkins> there we go, looks a lot better
20100403 04:18:49< awilkins> shadowmaster: thanks for the advice : )
20100403 04:19:32< shadowmaster> no prob
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20100403 05:23:45< CIA-64> gabba * r41946 /trunk/src/ (game_preferences_display.cpp multiplayer_connect.cpp): 
20100403 05:23:45< CIA-64> First commit! I admit I've been expecting this moment.
20100403 05:23:45< CIA-64> Moved the "show team colours" and "show grid" options to the Display preferences: with the "delay shroud updates on start" option added by my latest patch, there wasn't enough space left on the General page.
20100403 05:23:45< CIA-64> Added a help string for the Add Local Player button from my other patch.
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20100403 07:53:24< happygrue> wesnoth.org is down it seems?
20100403 07:54:46< happygrue> of  course, now that I mention it, it is just me...
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20100403 08:05:39< Sirp> happygrue: it's very slow
20100403 08:06:02< happygrue> yeah, I see a few people were timing out
20100403 08:06:06< happygrue> me included
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20100403 08:40:12< mordante> servus
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20100403 08:53:06< timotei21> morning everyone
20100403 08:54:34< mordante> hi timotei21 
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20100403 09:09:23< mordante> shadowmaster, as designed just means it's not a bug ;-) and yes I have most scrollwheel experience on Windows
20100403 09:09:55< timotei21> scrolling without losing focus?
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20100403 09:53:31< timotei21> seen orfest
20100403 09:53:37< timotei21> wesbot seen orfest
20100403 09:53:38< wesbot> timotei21: The person with the nick orfest last spoke 1d 19h ago.  17m 48s ago they left with the message:
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20100403 10:59:03< Ivanovic> moin
20100403 10:59:08< timotei-temp> hello:)
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20100403 10:59:54< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20100403 11:09:58< Ivanovic> is gna svn down atm?
20100403 11:10:19< timotei21> I think so
20100403 11:10:27< timotei21> It doesn't connect
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20100403 11:12:28< Ivanovic> esr: you should have give patch #1578 a *real* review
20100403 11:12:42< mordante> Ivanovic, yes the website is up again, but svn still down
20100403 11:13:04< Ivanovic> esr: the submittee is a possible gsoc student and thus the formalities like eg a changelog entry as well as the about.cfg entry should have gotten a short "please add this"
20100403 11:14:07< mordante> I would say those formalities should be applied to every patch, not only for GSoC candidate
20100403 11:14:51< mordante> btw Ivanovic would it be possible to add a short description when somebody wants to add a patch
20100403 11:15:07< mordante> we keep repeating those arguments :-(
20100403 11:15:21< Ivanovic> mordante: huh?
20100403 11:15:36< Ivanovic> mordante: no idea what is possible regarding restrictions like this in the gna tracker
20100403 11:16:25< mordante> me neither ;-) but otherwise a canned response for patches would be nice
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20100403 11:28:13< Ivanovic> wow, download stats are nice
20100403 11:28:20< Ivanovic> had a peak of 5371 downloads yesterday
20100403 11:29:56< mordante> nice
20100403 11:30:53< Ivanovic> before the normal daily value was a little above 2000
20100403 11:31:10< Ivanovic> (okay, before there was no "1.8 is ready" announcement)
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20100403 11:53:34< esr> Ivanovic: It looked sound, so I committed it.  Wasn't aware of the GSoC angle.
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20100403 13:25:22< fabi> timotei, do you have time?
20100403 13:26:22< fabi> Crab_, How would you import existing campaigns into the campaign editor?
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20100403 13:27:40< Crab_> in addition two two solutions in the dev-ml mail, there's another two 3) use an external, non-wml project file with meta-information about either directories (e.g. 'scenarios are in 2 folders: scenarios, and scenarios2, lua files are in 'lua' ,..) or individual files          4) attach meta-information to files itself, as wml comments 
20100403 13:27:49< Ivanovic> updated the screenshots section in the wiki to show some 1.8 screenshots
20100403 13:27:58< Ivanovic> not many and not too good screenshots, but better than nothing
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20100403 13:28:15< Crab_> for (3),  you can do just as it's done for importing java non-eclipse projects to eclipse - specify the list of 'scenario folders' by hand, if the editor is not able to guess from naming conventions or current file content.
20100403 13:29:06< Crab_> it should work for mainline campaigns without many problems, since (1) they currently contain no errors, so it's possible to autoguess based on [scenario] tag  2) they respect the mainline campaign layout, e.g., scenarios are in 'scenarios'
20100403 13:29:57< fabi> How would the plugin handle the special case that a campaign designer has put a special time_of_day definition and all scenarios (very short ones maybe) in one file?
20100403 13:30:28< Ivanovic> fabi: should not be done, against the coding convention
20100403 13:30:29< fabi> I mean all scenarios that make use of this time_of_day schedule.
20100403 13:30:42< Ivanovic> solution: scenario designer has to fix his code to make it work with the existing convention
20100403 13:30:52< Crab_> fabi: unless someone will extend the plugin to handle a 'multiple scenarios' file, I'd say "keep the errors to a minimum, but label this file as 'not correct, type unknown'
20100403 13:31:05< fabi> Ivanovic, Is that coding convention written down somewhere?
20100403 13:31:18< Ivanovic> fabi: no idea
20100403 13:31:21< fabi> Ivanovic, I would like to point timotei to it.
20100403 13:31:38< Ivanovic> i'd guess the conventions are what mainline does ship
20100403 13:32:03< fabi> That is a bad situation, if it is not defined somewhere. I goes timotei should not lock at LoW then.
20100403 13:32:07< Ivanovic> since yeah, all of mainline basically does use the same setup
20100403 13:32:23< fabi> esr, Do you know of a written coding convention for campaigns?
20100403 13:32:25< Crab_> yes, mainline campaigns have mostly the same structure. I think that standardizing the project structure (but allowing to override it if needed) is a good thing.
20100403 13:32:57< esr> fabi: No, I don't.
20100403 13:33:13< fabi> Nevertheless we need a written convention. We can't say to a student please guess our coding conventions and make everything work fine.
20100403 13:33:14< Crab_> fabi: exactly as it's done for java - for eclipse projects, standard source location is src, for maven - src/main/java, but they can be both overridden if necessary
20100403 13:34:03< Crab_> I prefer to work at 'directories' level, since then it's easier to add/copy/modify files and subfolders from other tools
20100403 13:34:35< fabi> Please don't compare that to java. You can have config files in utils that mix different wml types widely. And that is common in mainline campaigns. How would you tag those files?
20100403 13:35:35< Crab_> fabi: well, most of these files are still 'correct' wml by themselves', and they can be labeled as 'part of wml schema tree, starting at XYZ'
20100403 13:35:37< fabi> I just don't like the idea of wml use cases bound to a directory position not.
20100403 13:36:03< Crab_> fabi: we can add a thing similar to xml doctype to them, as a wml comment with special meaning
20100403 13:36:06< timotei> hello guys
20100403 13:36:15< timotei> sorry, was doing some acm problems :P
20100403 13:36:19< timotei> now I can talk
20100403 13:36:28< Crab_> fabi: to specify what part of wml schema tree lies inside, to allow to verify it
20100403 13:36:28< timotei> let me first read what you've written
20100403 13:37:29< fabi> And to bring back the java comparision: In java we have .java files that are inside src and they define classes. In wml we have .wml files, inside a wml folder maybe that define a wml tree.
20100403 13:37:35< mordante> fabi, afaik there's no convention and every campaign author can select his/her own
20100403 13:38:11< fabi> mordante, Agreed. So let's keep the eclipse plugin versatile. It should not know about what a file is meant for. 
20100403 13:38:21< fabi> Just because wml does not know about files.
20100403 13:39:21< mordante> exactly
20100403 13:39:31< Ivanovic> we *do* have some basic structure that we should fix in some coding convention
20100403 13:39:51< Crab_> fabi: if it doesn't know what is in the file from meta-information, it will have certain problems if the file contains syntax errors
20100403 13:40:09< Ivanovic> eg units go into units/, maps go into maps/, scenario files go into scenarios/, images go into images/ (with appropriate subtrees)
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20100403 13:40:55< Ivanovic> and there is the omnipotent utils/ that mainly does include various kinds of macros (no matter if speach sequences, death macros or whatever)
20100403 13:41:20< Ivanovic> we *do* have this kind of structure, it is used for all or mainline and most UMC does follow this convention, too
20100403 13:41:35< Ivanovic> *beside* the stuff in utils/ all stuff is rather clear
20100403 13:41:54< Crab_> fabi: there are a number of ways we can try to guess, either from top-level wml tag, or from _main.cfg, or from file content-type, but, for example if the file contains various macros, the editor shouldn't ever try to think that this is a scenario
20100403 13:41:56< Ivanovic> right?
20100403 13:42:27< fabi> Crab_, It will think that most LoW scenarios are not scenario files. 
20100403 13:42:28< Crab_> Ivanovic: yes, but not written anywhere, and with a few small violations in mainline (like a utility file in scenarios folder)
20100403 13:43:02< fabi> I define scenario specific macros at the toplevel of the files.
20100403 13:43:11< Crab_> fabi: exactly, determining the fact that LoW scenarios are scenarios is tricky from content
20100403 13:44:25< fabi> Crab_, What benefits do we gain by knowing which kind of wml a file should contain?
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20100403 13:45:20< Crab_> fabi: things like 'open scenario' and autocompletion for them will know about all scenario files, even if some of them have incomplete markup.
20100403 13:45:26< mordante> Ivanovic, most follow it, but it's not really a fixed convention and if only adding one unit it may be defined in the util directory
20100403 13:45:52< Ivanovic> mordante: like i said, utils/ is a mishmash folder where everything can be included
20100403 13:46:08< Ivanovic> but beside this one folder, all are *rather* clear
20100403 13:46:12< mordante> also there's no 1:1 relation between scenario name and map name, since a map may be shared between scenarios
20100403 13:46:24< Ivanovic> there is no need for such a relation
20100403 13:46:29< Crab_> fabi: and, if we come across a file with broken markup, we can actually validate it with less errors if we know what should be in there
20100403 13:46:29< mordante> ok
20100403 13:48:11< fabi> Crab_: I don't see that specifing a scenario that is not more than a file on the right location is a good idea.
20100403 13:48:49< fabi> I think it is better that the next_scenario attribute completion is not working if there is no [scenario] id=the_scenario in the wml tree.
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20100403 13:50:18< fabi> broken markup files that are so broken that the parser doesn't see which wml tag is there to be handled anymore don't need "better support"
20100403 13:50:42< Ivanovic> fabi: what is better, a message with "your project is broken"
20100403 13:50:44< fabi> This will bring us away from the engine if the eclipse plugin will guess it's own wml syntax.
20100403 13:51:02< Ivanovic> or a message with "the project is currently broken, the issue is most likely in ABC since there should be no XYZ in there"
20100403 13:51:08< fabi> If there is no wmltree to be read anymore. I want to rely on wmllint wmlvalidator and the engine for the errors.
20100403 13:51:20< Crab_> fabi: well, the eclipse plugin needs to know which part of wml tree is located in a certain file
20100403 13:51:35< fabi> If this tools don't give valid errors they need to be improved. Don't move this kind of work inside the eclipse plugin.
20100403 13:52:09< Crab_> fabi: 'giving the tools more information' is one of the ways to improve them
20100403 13:52:42< fabi> Crab_, Yes, but it should do that during parsing and not read it from a .eclipse_plugin file.
20100403 13:52:49< Ivanovic> to be able to improve tools i see two possible ways:
20100403 13:53:00< Ivanovic> 1) the tools get more information from the files what to expect
20100403 13:53:16< Crab_> fabi: e.g., if eclipse plugin launches wmlvalidator on file XYZ, tellig it that 'this should be a scenario file, check it', it will have the ability to produce a better results then if it just launched in with 'this is a wml file with something, check it'
20100403 13:53:18< Ivanovic> 2) we improve the crystal ball that the tools rely on so that they are more reliable in predicting issues
20100403 13:53:31< Ivanovic> somehow i fear that 1) is a better way to go
20100403 13:53:54< fabi> Crab_, Yes, but I want to have the debugging in the engine or python tools, not in the eclipse plugin. 
20100403 13:53:55< Crab_> this information 'this should be a scenario file' can be written in .project, in _main.cfg, in the file itself (wml comment on first line)
20100403 13:54:12< Ivanovic> regarding "what the tools are already able to" it might make sense to reread the mail esr wrote some month ago about the capabilities of our tools and why they are not able to do "more" at various places
20100403 13:54:28< fabi> I can live with an eclipse plugin that is not perfect if it respects engine engine because it relies on the engine. And not on it's own knowledge.
20100403 13:54:30< timotei> Ivanovic, this is the email: https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2010-02/msg00078.html
20100403 13:54:51< timotei> but as I see it's down :(
20100403 13:54:54< Ivanovic> fabi: and even for the existing python tools more info is required in the parsed files to give better output
20100403 13:55:38< fabi> Ivanovic, Ask shadowmaster what he thinks about that. 
20100403 13:57:27< Ivanovic> topic is/was "[Wesnoth-dev] The limitations of wmlscope and wmllint"
20100403 13:57:37< fabi> Half of LoW is full of wmllint: ignore this and ignore that. Extra eclipse ignore this and ignore that is not the way to go.
20100403 13:58:03< Ivanovic> fabi: why do you think that i propose extra eclipse ignore: stuff?
20100403 13:58:17< Ivanovic> fabi: what i propose is better annotations in wml files to make the python tools more powerfull
20100403 13:58:28< fabi> oh no!
20100403 13:58:35< Ivanovic> fabi: but we *need* more info in the files to allow the python tools to be able to get more stuff done
20100403 13:58:38< Crab_> fabi: for example, to validate a xml file, we need additional information at the start of the XML file, telling us the schema which is used, and/or the doctype, and/or processing instructions
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20100403 13:59:01< fabi> Ivanovic, Only because they are designed with no macros in mind.
20100403 13:59:40< Ivanovic> fabi: only because with macros in the mix it would be *hell* to maintain them!
20100403 14:00:09< Crab_> fabi: that's why, for WML, including such meta-info is a good thing too. if you don't want to keep it to eclipse plugin, we can put it inside the file, as 1-line wml comment or a new preprocessor directive, telling all the tools that read a file that this is, for example, a scenario.
20100403 14:00:14< fabi> Have a look at the emacs wml mode. It's more useful than wmllint and does not require a single line of #emacs-mode do this.
20100403 14:01:01< fabi> But it's more easy to just say everything in [scenario] [/scenario] is a scenario. 
20100403 14:01:41< Crab_> fabi: then we need to fix a few things in the engine, and improve the syntax in a few places, to make cases like LoW unnecessary
20100403 14:02:05< Crab_> fabi: e.g., to allow that 'scenario - or - multiplayer' choice without macroses
20100403 14:03:17< fabi> If we do that I vote to remove the include system completely. If the engine looks for a campaign's scenarios in a certain place we should remove the preprocessing that can do things wrong.
20100403 14:03:21< Crab_> and yes, we can autodetect based on first wml tag, but we'll need to ensure that this first tag is not a macro (if it's a macro, then the file will be parsed as 'misc utils' )
20100403 14:04:10< Crab_> fabi: include is used for more than scenarios, and, actually, in the include system is not the biggest problem around
20100403 14:04:12< fabi> And what is with the second and third wml tag that is at toplevel in the file?
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20100403 14:05:02< Crab_> fabi: if it's one of recognized-and-approved top-level tags, we can use them, allowing, for example, multiple scenarios in a file to be recognized.
20100403 14:06:09< Crab_> fabi: e.g., the plugin will offer more support when top-level tag in a file is from a special group which includes tags like [scenario], [unit], or when file extension is special (.lua, .fai, .map )
20100403 14:07:34< Crab_> when some top-level is not from that group, that part of the file will be considered a 'wml fragment', so no extended validation will be done
20100403 14:07:55< Crab_> (for that fragment)
20100403 14:08:02< fabi> And what should that extended validation be?
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20100403 14:08:52< Crab_> checking against a schema, trying to not treat absent subtags (hidden in macroses) as errors.
20100403 14:09:24< Crab_> and adding to caches like 'list of all scenarios by id', 'list of all units'
20100403 14:09:33< Crab_> for code completion and jumps
20100403 14:09:52< fabi> but we want subtags hidden in macroses to be checked. And we don't can have a list of all scenarios by id out of the wmltree.
20100403 14:10:37< fabi> I can only see disadvantages.
20100403 14:10:50< Crab_> but at least it will work :)
20100403 14:11:09< Crab_> if we want to go the wmltree approach, things will be more difficult to get right
20100403 14:11:21< fabi> Making it work by all costs is not a primary target.
20100403 14:11:27< Crab_> since, basically, you'll need to do the 'improve wml debugging' project first
20100403 14:11:43< fabi> No.
20100403 14:12:08< Crab_> since, you'll have to rebuild the wml tree after each save to a file, marking some branches of tree as 'invalid at the moment, skipping'
20100403 14:12:15< fabi> We will see after the project what is bad with wmllint/wmlvalidator/engine so we can fix that in a next gsoc.
20100403 14:12:19< Crab_> to expand macroses you need to know the tree
20100403 14:12:34< Crab_> since the available macroses depend on 'how you got there'
20100403 14:12:44< fabi> That means that the eclipse plugin will be around for some time but not perfect. But it will make the rest of the tools better during the time.
20100403 14:13:50< fabi> Hacking the engine and the other tools around the new eclipse plugin is just wrong.
20100403 14:13:52< Crab_> so, if we want to go the 'use the tree' approach, then the eclipse plugin needs to be postponed for now, and replaced by 'code a wml preprocessor with superb error recovery, which can recompile only parts of wml tree on-demand' - basically, 'improve wml debugging project'
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20100403 14:15:08< fabi> We have a working python preprocessor with not that superb error recovery. And the engine does give stacktraces. They are not perfect either. The eclipse plugin can target them now. It will get more and more useful during the time.
20100403 14:16:18< fabi> This tools then can be used by emacs or vi or notepad users. If we follow the in eclipse project approach we loose wml flexibility and make the usage of the tool a must.
20100403 14:17:02< Crab_> fabi: well, the said preprocessor doesn't depend on the eclipse plugin, so it can be used in other tools. it can be even written in c++ as  part of the game engine.
20100403 14:17:39< Crab_> fabi: so, basically, to sum it up, you want macro-expansion to work after each 'eclipse project build' ?
20100403 14:18:26< Crab_> fabi: and use one of currently available parsers for that, living with the fact that in case of macro argument errors, the error messages are screwed up, hoping that the parser will be improved later, independently
20100403 14:19:12< Crab_> see the http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_Awilkins#Example_of_a_Macro_Error for the example
20100403 14:19:48< Crab_> e.g., if we go that way, in case of macro-related errors, wrong files will be marked as problematic
20100403 14:20:39< Crab_> of course we can think out of some hacks/other checks to somewhat help this issue...
20100403 14:20:51< fabi> Yes, that is exactly what I want. I know that the engine has problems giving useful output when macro errors are there. The eclipse plugin can still give more useful error reports from wmlscope.
20100403 14:21:16< Crab_> ok
20100403 14:21:35< Crab_> yes, this will work, as designed.
20100403 14:21:48< fabi> But don't recode the things the engine goes wrong in the eclipse plugin. The engine will never get fixed and the usage of the (well working eclipse plugin, I know your plan will make it a good tool) will be mandatory.
20100403 14:22:12< Crab_> well, we can recode the engine before doing the wml plugin
20100403 14:22:40< Crab_> the preprocessor I was speaking of, it can be written in C++ and used by both wesnoth and by standalone programs (and by eclipse plugin via JNI)
20100403 14:23:33< fabi> Crab_, I like that idea. That is a much better approach.
20100403 14:24:30< Crab_> so, we'll need to split off wesnoth's preprocessor from wesnoth, basically creating libWML
20100403 14:24:55< fabi> Still can the eclipse plugin be coded because the stacktrace won't differ much from the current format beside the thing that it is actual more useful.
20100403 14:25:03< Crab_> yes, it can be coded
20100403 14:25:48< Crab_> it will be slower (no incremental recompilation allowed by current WML syntax) and less robust, but it'll work. and for correct code, it'll work good enough.
20100403 14:29:24< Crab_> to actually make incremental recompilation and better debugging output to work, we'll need to change WML itself, making macros behave more similar to local functors (e.g., add scope and shadowing to them) 
20100403 14:29:50< Crab_> (and adding some extra requirements for content of .cfg files)
20100403 14:30:05< Crab_> but that is 'wml debugging', not 'eclipse plugin'
20100403 14:30:09< fabi> Crab_, Yes, but that can be delayed until the next gsoc.
20100403 14:30:29< Crab_> well, it's better to delay 'eclipse plugin'  :)
20100403 14:30:43< Crab_> (but that also partially depends on student proposals we have)
20100403 14:31:14< timotei> :-S
20100403 14:31:29< fabi> I think the eclipse plugin can use what is ready now. 
20100403 14:31:47< Crab_> note how wesnoth mp lobby (dependent on gui2) went - it got hit by gui2 bugs a large number of times, delaying it for quite a long time
20100403 14:31:56< fabi> wmllint, wmlvalidator, wmlscope and the engine. 
20100403 14:32:18< Crab_> fabi: then I think that it's better to concentrate eclipse plugin's capabilities on other things, like wizards, not on syntax checking.
20100403 14:32:38< fabi> Right.
20100403 14:33:05< Crab_> fabi: e.g, 'make sure that features other than syntax checking are still a good GSoC, since you'd not get extended schema-based syntax checking correct in this year'
20100403 14:33:17< Crab_> then, the student's project can still be a successful one.
20100403 14:33:43< fabi> And we can extend the plugin during next years gsoc to fit the new engine features.
20100403 14:33:49< Crab_> yes
20100403 14:34:13< fabi> But still it maybe that the make engine a better debugger proposal gets accepted and the eclipse plugin not.
20100403 14:34:35< fabi> Or none of the both get accepted.
20100403 14:34:40< Crab_> fabi: well, that will be seen later
20100403 14:34:57< Crab_> fabi: 'depends on student's proposals we get', I'd say :)
20100403 14:35:59< Crab_> timotei: so, note the 'concentrate eclipse plugin's capabilities on other things, like wizards, not on syntax checking'  suggestion.
20100403 14:36:06< timotei> yes
20100403 14:36:09< fabi> The eclipse plugin project will get a little smaler, since it is basically how to use existing tools.
20100403 14:36:26< timotei> now I'm testing the creation of files/folder and I think I've made it:D
20100403 14:36:31< fabi> timotei, You can still include syntax checking if it is easy to use one of the existing tools.
20100403 14:36:36< timotei> yes
20100403 14:36:59< timotei> hehe, it works:D
20100403 14:37:22< timotei> I've made a simple wizard that creates a sample _main.cfg file and the folder structure
20100403 14:37:26< Crab_> timotei: what will work is 'basic syntax checking' (basically, the one which xtext will give you), and 'use external tools and place warning/error markers at the specified places
20100403 14:37:27< timotei> do you want the diff file?
20100403 14:37:34< timotei> yes Crab_
20100403 14:37:49< timotei> well, I think based on the current schema.cfg file right?
20100403 14:38:14< Crab_> timotei: no
20100403 14:38:30< timotei> no the diff file or no the latter?
20100403 14:38:36< Crab_> timotei: 'no, it will not correspond to wml schema'
20100403 14:38:42< timotei> oh, ok
20100403 14:38:55< Crab_> timotei: it'll simply check that the tags, strings, macroses have correct syntax
20100403 14:39:06< timotei> yes
20100403 14:39:29< Crab_> timotei: e.g., 'error if tags are not closed correct, warning if string is not in "", etc
20100403 14:40:09< timotei> of course
20100403 14:40:26< Crab_> timotei: and, your xtext schema should provide for macroses, without knowing their meaning and number of arguments - just check if the base {} syntax looks like correct
20100403 14:40:40< timotei> understood
20100403 14:41:05< Crab_> and, make it easy to integrate external tools (they can be used to place 'markers' next to specified lines0
20100403 14:41:10< stikonas> is svn.gna.org down?
20100403 14:41:17< mordante> yes stikonas 
20100403 14:42:04< Crab_> timotei: actually, this is a good pre-gsoc task :
20100403 14:42:30< Crab_> timotei: invoke something like "fgrep -Rn scenario /wesnoth/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios" from eclipse, and mark each line in a project which was returned with a warning or error.
20100403 14:42:57< Crab_> where 'fgrep -Rn scenario /wesnoth/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios' is just a stub for the external tool which returns file names and line numbers
20100403 14:44:09< timotei> ok
20100403 14:44:18< timotei> I'll put it down on the project proposal
20100403 14:44:30< Crab_> be sure to note that if you invoke an external tool, you need to add a reader to its stdout and stderr before you invoke waitFor() on this process, otherwise you'd hit a deadlock
20100403 14:44:38< timotei> it's problem if my page has some "hidden" commentaries?
20100403 14:44:46< Crab_> timotei: np with that
20100403 14:44:48< timotei> I need to process them into "proposal" form
20100403 14:45:11< timotei> yes, I've worked before with reading/writing from other application's console
20100403 14:45:13< Crab_> timotei: note that I'll read them anyway, since I generally read the history diffs of the student pages
20100403 14:45:21< timotei> :P
20100403 14:45:28< Crab_> timotei: and that shows me the 'source' form, not just visible things
20100403 14:45:38< timotei> yes
20100403 14:46:59< timotei> Do you want to see the patch for the dummy wizard?
20100403 14:48:17< Crab_> timotei: yes, you can post it and I'll take a look
20100403 14:48:58< Crab_> timotei: in a few weeks, I'll ask you for all the prototype code that you've done so far, so there's not a problem if I don't look at something now.
20100403 14:49:00< timotei> here it is: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/kEZQX1fS
20100403 14:49:02< Crab_> ok
20100403 14:49:06< timotei> oh, good
20100403 14:49:37< timotei> I haven't done really much for now, because I've read some documentation on how to do different things
20100403 14:49:46< timotei> and see what options I have when developing the plugin
20100403 14:49:53< Crab_> yes, that's a good thing.
20100403 14:50:00< fabi> timotei, we should move the svn repository into the trunk/tools folder.
20100403 14:50:13< fabi> like Soliton suggusted.
20100403 14:50:18< timotei> I don't have commit access, so I can't do it:P (yet)
20100403 14:50:20< Crab_> timotei: so, that's why I suggested that you code that 'integrate dummy external tool' thing  :)
20100403 14:50:34< timotei> ok
20100403 14:50:59< timotei> well, fabi told me first to implement some wizard-ing stuff, so that's why I'm doing that right now
20100403 14:51:12< fabi> Then you can submit the patch against it via patches.wesnoth.org. 
20100403 14:51:21< fabi> I mean the wizard stuff.
20100403 14:51:25< timotei> yes
20100403 14:51:44< Crab_> timotei: yes, of course :)
20100403 14:52:03< timotei> well, I prefer using 
20100403 14:52:10< timotei> _ in front of class's members
20100403 14:52:55< fabi> timotei, We don't have a coding convention for java files in wesnoth. But we use _ at the end in c++.
20100403 14:53:12< timotei> so I should use that instead?
20100403 14:53:50< timotei> with _ in front, it's faster to see who's the class member
20100403 14:53:59< timotei> but I'll use whatever it needs
20100403 14:54:17< Crab_> timotei: well, /me prefers 'no underscores at all, and access through this. ', but, use whatever fendrin likes :)
20100403 14:54:41< timotei> yes:P
20100403 14:54:47< fabi> timotei, I am not stuck at a certain convention. 
20100403 14:54:58< timotei> well, then, we could use it random
20100403 14:54:59< timotei> :))
20100403 14:55:21< Crab_> timotei: ok, read through the patch
20100403 14:56:10< Crab_> timotei: a few notes: 1) error handling should be better. never, ever, lose the stack trace. preferably, print it to log, as well.
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20100403 14:56:38< Crab_> that's, for example, about catch (Exception e) {  Logger.print("There was an error writing in the file.");   }
20100403 14:56:48< Crab_> you've lost both the stack trace and file name
20100403 14:57:10< timotei> yes
20100403 14:58:23< Crab_> generally, each your log message must include a 'unique string' which adds value to the error message
20100403 14:58:58< Crab_> e.g., 'the name of the file', 'the name of the scenario', etc
20100403 15:00:37< timotei> me away for 10 minutes. brb
20100403 15:00:44-!- timotei is now known as timotei21_away
20100403 15:03:57< lfernando> hello
20100403 15:04:02< Crab_> hi, lfernando
20100403 15:04:19< lfernando> hi crab =)
20100403 15:04:25< lfernando> you seem a lot of busy lately
20100403 15:04:30< Crab_> happens :)
20100403 15:04:31< mordante> hi lfernando 
20100403 15:05:47< lfernando> let me ask something
20100403 15:05:56< Crab_> lfernando: ok :)
20100403 15:06:00< lfernando> on filesystem.?pp
20100403 15:06:16< lfernando> get_user_data_dir()
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20100403 15:06:23< Crab_> timotei21_away: also, you can do some things in simpler way, e.g. using ByteArrayInputStream(fileContentsString.getBytes()) instead of piping through an output stream, and there's a number of possible improvements, but it's ok for the prototype
20100403 15:07:00< lfernando> does it return the string with the path to the .wesnoth dir?
20100403 15:07:38< Crab_> yes, it should (note that the name can be different)
20100403 15:07:51< Ivanovic> off for some hours, cu
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20100403 15:09:28< lfernando> ok, good
20100403 15:10:25< lfernando> for writing/reading files
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20100403 15:10:51< lfernando> which part of wesnoth code should I reference
20100403 15:11:40< lfernando> just straight forward file I/O
20100403 15:11:44< lfernando> not wml =)
20100403 15:12:35< Crab_> lfernando: you can add dependency on boost::filesystem, see dev-ml - there's some talks about switching to it anyway. ask loonycyborg about it
20100403 15:14:48-!- timotei21_away is now known as timotei21
20100403 15:14:50< timotei21> back
20100403 15:16:53< timotei21> uou, nice one the thing with ByteArrayInputStream
20100403 15:16:56< lfernando> ok, I'll ask him about it
20100403 15:17:21< Crab_> lfernando: basically, 'just use boost:filesystem' is ok for any prototype you code.
20100403 15:17:48< Crab_> lfernando: but you might want to tell what you are intending to do, since it might be that it can be done in a different way
20100403 15:17:52< loonycyborg> read_file/write_file is fine too.
20100403 15:18:56< loonycyborg> AFAIK boost::filesystem doesn't offer easier ways to read/write files than those custom wesnoth functions :P
20100403 15:19:16< Crab_> :)
20100403 15:20:28< Crab_> wesbot: seen orfest
20100403 15:20:28< wesbot> Crab_: The person with the nick orfest last spoke 2d ago.  5h 44m ago they left with the message:
20100403 15:22:26< lfernando> nice, read_file/write_file seems straightforward enough
20100403 15:25:44< lfernando> what I'm going to do is a very simple WML test
20100403 15:26:12< lfernando> going to create a file called global.cfg
20100403 15:26:15< lfernando> on user data
20100403 15:26:39< lfernando> it won't have a lot of structure as for now
20100403 15:27:03< Crab_> lfernando: ok. btw, have you created a wiki page for your proposal ?
20100403 15:27:28< lfernando> just a few lines of WML variables
20100403 15:27:39< lfernando> Crab_: no, good call
20100403 15:28:07< lfernando> just returned from vacation, will write it ASAP
20100403 15:28:09< Crab_> ok. be sure to do that (you'll need to submit a proposal to google anyway, and you'll be able to reference your wiki page from that proposal)
20100403 15:28:15< Crab_> until 9th, that is
20100403 15:28:24< Crab_> so, 6 days left
20100403 15:28:48< Crab_> lfernando: ok, and ask questions, if you have any, I'll be glad to help you.
20100403 15:32:56< lfernando> sure
20100403 15:33:04< lfernando> I'll implement a sketch of the idea
20100403 15:33:24< lfernando> then show it to you so we can discuss it
20100403 15:33:27< Crab_> ok
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20100403 15:38:27< mordante> Upthorn, I just had a look at your proposal and it would be nice if you can work on getting more meat in the technical details part
20100403 15:38:43< mordante> Upthorn, it would also be nice if you can work on a patch
20100403 15:39:12< mordante> wesbot, seen JustasJ
20100403 15:39:13< wesbot> mordante: The person with the nick JustasJ last spoke 17h 50m ago.  16h 57m ago they left with the message: Quit: Page closed
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20100403 17:21:07< billynux> hi Crab_ , mordante ... quick question about the boost::asio implementation
20100403 17:21:16< billynux> why do you want multiplexing?
20100403 17:22:04< billynux> do you want to send a big pack of data through different connections? or have different connections for different types of data?
20100403 17:22:55< billynux> I'm gonna write a prototype to show how this can be done
20100403 17:24:27< Crab_> billynux: hi
20100403 17:24:32< billynux> hi
20100403 17:25:10< billynux> I assume you need it for reason no. 2...
20100403 17:25:37< Crab_> billynux: I want to code a separate program which can connect to wesnoth MP server a large number of times and host multiple games at the same time
20100403 17:25:47< Crab_> billynux: this program will reuse parts of wesnoth's code, as well
20100403 17:26:01< billynux> ok
20100403 17:26:08< Crab_> it will allow to play a 'massive multiplayer campaign', where each game contributes to a gameworld state
20100403 17:26:28< Crab_> and it will allow one game to have an influence on another, via that 'game master'
20100403 17:27:12< billynux> I see
20100403 17:27:38< Crab_> and, to wesnoth MP server and to other clients, it'll look just as 'ordinary' client.
20100403 17:28:05< Crab_> but anyone will be able to use it to host their own 'massive multiplayer campaign'
20100403 17:28:27< Crab_> 'World of Wesnoth', sort of
20100403 17:29:02< billynux> ok, nice
20100403 17:29:27< billynux> a bit of a Composite pattern, only in the aspect of treating a collection of objects as if it were a single one
20100403 17:29:40< Crab_> that is, actually, the main reason why I want to see the network stack rewritten :))
20100403 17:30:04< billynux> all right...
20100403 17:30:32< billynux> would a simple proof-of-concept prototype be useful? one that doesn't connect to the Wesnoth MP server
20100403 17:31:09< billynux> meaning: I'll code a server and the two types of clients
20100403 17:31:35< mordante> a proof-of-concept will make your application stronger
20100403 17:31:36< Crab_> yes, it will be useful as 1) a demonstration of your coding abilities  2) a demonstration of your dedication to the project and the availability of time. so, it'll be a good thing which will increase your chances of being accepted.
20100403 17:31:50< billynux> great!
20100403 17:31:58< Crab_> and, some of the solutions that you code might be applicable when you'll actually start the project.
20100403 17:32:11< mordante> would be the nicest if connects to the real server, but if you feel you can demonstrate more using something custom, that's also good
20100403 17:32:27< billynux> I'll start coding in say 5 hours (can't right now), and expect to have some code to show come midnight
20100403 17:32:44< mordante> cool, I look forward to it
20100403 17:32:46< billynux> regarding bug fixing... any suggestions?
20100403 17:33:00< Crab_> billynux: I think that the prototype is more important
20100403 17:33:14 * mordante agrees with Crab_
20100403 17:33:22< billynux> meaning, it's complicated, given the time frame, to endeavor into some nitty-gritty detail...
20100403 17:33:25< billynux> oh... cool
20100403 17:33:32< billynux> I'll put energy into that then
20100403 17:33:43< mordante> we normally ask patches to get an impression of a student, a working prototype does that even better
20100403 17:33:43< Crab_> billynux: since you won't have to touch wesnoth's code a lot during the GSoC, it's better to concentrate on network-related things
20100403 17:34:00< billynux> ok
20100403 17:35:24< billynux> a couple of big .cpp files up on pastebin? or a .tgz with .hpp/.cpp for each class somewhere?
20100403 17:35:31< Crab_> billynux: for something separate, please use one of wesnoth's main buildsystem as a buildsystem (e.g., either scons or cmake)
20100403 17:36:07< Crab_> billynux: svn would be better...
20100403 17:36:28< billynux> ok
20100403 17:37:07< billynux> adding the buildsystem stuff will take some homework time :)
20100403 17:37:30< billynux> I'm not at the moment familiar with either scons or cmake
20100403 17:37:53< Crab_> billynux: it won't be hard
20100403 17:38:37< billynux> probably... I know (and don't really like) autotools
20100403 17:38:46< Crab_> billynux: basically, you have to say 'those are my cpp files, those are the include dirs, those are the libs I want to link against, this is the executable file that I want to compile"
20100403 17:39:07< mordante> billynux, some cmake tutorials http://www.cmake.org/Wiki/CMake and the boost stuff you can copy/paste from the Wesnoth build system
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20100403 17:39:28< billynux> ok
20100403 17:39:39< mordante> and a scons one http://www.scons.org/wiki/SconsTutorial1
20100403 17:40:02< mordante> if you have cmake questions you can ask Crab_ or me, for scons ask loonycyborg 
20100403 17:40:12< billynux> I'll look into them... I need to implement the build system of a separate project anyway...
20100403 17:40:34< billynux> and I really didn't want the autotools mess
20100403 17:40:45< billynux> hi orfest
20100403 17:41:05< mordante> I personally like cmake and it's much easier as autotools IMO, didn't really work with scons
20100403 17:41:07< orfest> billynux: hi!
20100403 17:41:09< mordante> hi orfest 
20100403 17:41:19< orfest> mordante: hi :)
20100403 17:43:05< mordante> orfest, I'm somewhat puzzled by your application, you list in both 4.1 and 4.2, which one do you really want to do, or are both equally interesting to you?
20100403 17:43:16< mordante> 4.2 a project*
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20100403 17:44:04< mordante> btw if GSoC students think their application is ready for review please ping me
20100403 17:44:18< orfest> mordante: well, I'm interested in rewriting network stack
20100403 17:44:29< orfest> mordante: that was my own proposal
20100403 17:44:57< orfest> mordante: I mean that listed in 4.2 :)
20100403 17:45:37< mordante> ok I thought so, best remove 4.2 then or answer with no
20100403 17:46:05< mordante> we have both in case a student has his/her own idea instead of one we provided
20100403 17:47:11< orfest> mordante: you mean the application, not the wiki page, right?
20100403 17:47:44< mordante> well most students update the wiki and copy paste to the application, but in the end the application at google is what google sees
20100403 17:48:26< mordante> if you update only the google application, just make sure you leave a note in the wiki, that the one at google is the real one
20100403 17:48:43< orfest> mordante: ok
20100403 17:49:53< timotei21> but isn't it ok just to let a link to the wiki page, in the gsoc proposal?
20100403 17:50:04< timotei21> so futher updates will be on the wiki
20100403 17:50:10< timotei21> s/futher/further
20100403 17:50:25< billynux> * I thought so too
20100403 17:50:43< mordante> I'm quite sure some people did that before as well
20100403 17:51:08< mordante> but orfest made an application at google with the content of the wiki page
20100403 17:51:43< billynux> I see...
20100403 17:52:14< mordante> orfest, also read the log starting at 17:24, billynux had the same question as you about multiplex connections
20100403 17:52:16< awilkins> mordante: if I'm still working on the technical details, would you say it's not ready for review?
20100403 17:52:24< billynux> yep!
20100403 17:52:37< orfest> mordante: thanks, I'm already got it :)
20100403 17:53:03< billynux> all right people, gotta go. I'll leave the chat on to read the log from here later
20100403 17:53:19< billynux> orfest, and the rest of the GSoC applicants: best of luck! 
20100403 17:53:40< mordante> awilkins, well I prefer to read things when they're finished it makes no sense to comment on volatile things
20100403 17:53:50< mordante> bye billynux 
20100403 17:55:17< Crab_> awilkins: right now you've told us what the problem is, and what you want the end result to be. what is missing is 'how you'll do it and what additional restriction on WML we'll need to enforce'
20100403 17:56:03< awilkins> Crab_: right that's the part I've been working on past couple of days. But I appreciate the feedback : )
20100403 17:56:10< Crab_> awilkins: also, if you see the irclog for today, there was a discussion between Crab_ and fabi about eclipse plugin, and we're talked about the things that are needed from the WML parser used by wesnoth wrt error correction
20100403 17:57:24< Crab_> awilkins: basically, if we have got a WML tree which is divided into 200 files which include each other, forming a dependency graph, we want to mark only those parts of the tree which are 'buggy' as 'ERROR', and process the other, valid, parts, if possible.
20100403 17:57:59< Crab_> awilkins: to do that, we need to change the WML itself, limiting the possible abuse of the macro system, and making macros less powerful
20100403 17:58:22< Crab_> this will allow us to mark the error in the file in which it occurs
20100403 17:58:27< timotei21> awilkins, starting from hour: 14.25
20100403 17:58:47< Crab_> awilkins: e.g, in your example, you talk about 'As you can see nothing about the file I edited was mentioned. In fact, a file that has nothing to do with what I did, thunderguard.cfg, was mentioned'
20100403 17:59:25< Crab_> awilkins: but, the message is technically correct - it is indeed POSSIBLE to change thunderguard.cfg to make the WML somewhat more correct.
20100403 17:59:41< awilkins> Crab_: what really?
20100403 17:59:59< awilkins> Crab_: also more correct as in to fool the error handler?
20100403 17:59:59< Crab_> awilkins: yes. think of it as a greedy parser consuming more than needed for a macro argument
20100403 18:00:26< mordante> orfest, in general your application looks good, but it can use more technical details of your approach and a timeline
20100403 18:01:01< orfest> mordante: yes, I'm working on this :)
20100403 18:01:09< mordante> ok
20100403 18:02:03< Crab_> awilkins: example:   file0: [config]{file1}{file2}[/config]             file1:   [outer] {MACRO foo bar  [/outer]          file2:   [outer] [/outer] 
20100403 18:02:15< Crab_> the } is missing
20100403 18:02:45< Crab_> fix expected by user: fix file1:     file0: [config]{file1}{file2}[/config]             file1:   [outer] {MACRO foo bar}  [/outer]          file2:   [outer] [/outer] 
20100403 18:03:11< mordante> Crab_, what's the status of https://gna.org/patch/?1548 , except that gna is down?
20100403 18:03:12< Crab_> but engine says that file2 is not valid. and it's right, too, because we can fix the code this way:   file0: [config]{file1}{file2}[/config]             file1:   [outer] {MACRO foo bar  [/outer]          file2:   [outer] } [/outer] 
20100403 18:03:39< Crab_> mordante: ok to commit (according to Ivanovic, not ok to backport to 1.8)
20100403 18:03:41< awilkins> Crab_: heh I see, so it searches for the closing bracket all the way into the next file
20100403 18:03:47< silene> no
20100403 18:03:54< awilkins> Silene: no?
20100403 18:04:05< mordante> Crab_, ok
20100403 18:04:37< silene> macro substitution does not go past the end of the file (neither do preprocessing directives, nor unbalanced strings)
20100403 18:05:12< Crab_> silene: ok, then I'm wrong. but why, then, errors are reported against different files?
20100403 18:05:45< silene> Crab_: no idea; and if you have read my reply to anon, i'm not even able to reproduce it; for me the error message is correct
20100403 18:06:21< Chusslove> In Delfador's Memoirs, is ...-Malal a sort of title rather than plain name?
20100403 18:06:23< Crab_> silene: awilkins has done it this way: http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_Awilkins
20100403 18:07:05< awilkins> silene: the log file produces the correct file which makes more sense, but the general error reports the wrong file. 
20100403 18:07:52< silene> awilkins: that's expected; the general error is a parser error, the log file the preprocessor error
20100403 18:08:18< silene> (though this is no longer, since a few days ago, i modified trunk so that the preprocessor error is displayed instead of the parser one)
20100403 18:08:36< Crab_> Chusslove: yes, sort of. afair, 'Mal'  is a reference to Malin Keshar
20100403 18:08:53< Crab_> Chusslove: esr should know more
20100403 18:09:42< Chusslove> Crab_: Thanks.
20100403 18:10:23< silene> Crab_: "Quoted string not terminated at core/units/elves/Shaman.cfg:220 included from core/units.cfg:17 included from core/_main.cfg:12 included from _main.cfg:5", works fine for me
20100403 18:10:48< Crab_> that's good
20100403 18:10:54< awilkins> Silene: and this is now the message displayed when the game fails, and not in the log right?
20100403 18:11:08< awilkins> silene: well that's one fix down haha
20100403 18:11:46< esr> Chusslove: There isn't much canon on this.  The way I think it goes is: "Ihiah-Malal" was the personal name of the first of the great necromancers.  After him, when Ravanal turned to evil he took part of that name as a title - as did his followers, later.
20100403 18:11:58< silene> awilkins: not sure it is one fix down; three developers disagree the change and say we shouldn't display preprocessor messages
20100403 18:13:45< Chusslove> esr: There's also Gruv-Malal, as contemporary (subordinate) of Iliah-Malal -- how does that fit?
20100403 18:14:38< esr> Hm.  Interesting question - I may have to invent something :-)  Why do you ask?
20100403 18:14:41< Crab_> silene: why they disagree / where I can read that conversation ? I'd say that the error message has clearly become better
20100403 18:15:08< silene> Crab_: look at the irc logs from april 1st, end of the day
20100403 18:15:14< Crab_> thanks
20100403 18:15:55 * Chusslove is asking about these details because capitalization and declination in translation depend on it.
20100403 18:16:28< awilkins> silene: thanks for the tips by the way, and replying to my forum post. : )
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20100403 18:17:15< Chusslove> E.g. if -Malal is ordinary part of name, then it gets initial upper case; if it's a title, it gets initial lower case.
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20100403 18:20:08< Crab_> silene: ok, read it. IMO, 'include this file if it exists' wml preprocessor directive would solve the concerns about addons needing to use optional stuff only if it's available.
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20100403 18:20:34< doodle> er
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20100403 18:22:24< timotei21> Crab_, one misc question. Should I include package.* or just the ones I need?
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20100403 18:22:54< Crab_> timotei21: I prefer 'just the ones you need'. but this is not important, because it can always be fixed by 'organize imports'
20100403 18:23:02< timotei21> ok
20100403 18:23:08< silene> Crab_: agreed; but i was thinking about extending #ifdef instead
20100403 18:23:54< Crab_> silene: something like #ifdef file_location   ?
20100403 18:29:27< silene> Crab_: yes
20100403 18:30:16< Crab_> yes, that's a better solution, since it allows a more easier way to do a group of actions only if a certain file is present.
20100403 18:30:40< timotei21> timotei21
20100403 18:42:44< awilkins> silene: so right now missing file/macro errors aren't fatal?
20100403 18:43:06< silene> awilkins: they aren't in 1.8, they are in trunk
20100403 18:50:23< silene> awilkins: if you are interested in working on the preprocessor, there are a few easy coding tasks to get accustomed with it; 1. the #ifdef thing just above; 2. causing some errors to trigger earlier (e.g. no need to wait until } before noticing that there are too many arguments)
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20100403 18:54:26< awilkins> silene: just to make sure, extending #ifdef would be used to accurately report missing files?
20100403 18:57:22< silene> awilkins: yes and no; some developers are expecting file include to work even if files are missing (weak dependencies on other addons, if i understood correctly); because of that, making missing files a fatal error is a loss of expressivity; so, by providing a way to test for files, we can expect developers to no longer include missing files and hence to keep missing files as a fatal error
20100403 18:59:37< awilkins> silene: ahh okay, thanks. 
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20100403 19:23:52< zookeeper> silene, if missing the to-be-included file would be fatal, would including an empty dir be fatal too?
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20100403 19:44:21< Crab_> A note to to all GSoC candidates:  JustasJ ,  gabba ,  fakedrake ,  endercoaster ,  Greywhind ,  Iskander ,  awilkins ,  Bdorf ,  billynux ,  Dakmor, Dakmor_, Dakmor_Z ,  Darkas ,  schumi ,  Hagaren ,  Upthorn, Upth ,  LucaMoller ,  pokhbocee ,  RandomDragon ,  Theodore ,  aranair ,  orfest ,  Salwan ,  timotei, timotei21 ,  titouu, titoou , and others:
20100403 19:44:22< Crab_>  I want to remind you that simply writing a wiki page with the answers to questionnaire is not enough, you should actively discuss your idea on forums/irc and provide a good explanation of HOW you will do the things you're proposing. Patches and prototype code is a Good Thing, too. 'I want to do that project, here's my answers to questionnaire' is not enough.
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20100403 20:05:11< fakedrake> Crab_: hello
20100403 20:05:28< Crab_> hi, fakedrake
20100403 20:05:33< fakedrake> i did some modifications to my proposal
20100403 20:05:42< fakedrake> would you review it
20100403 20:05:53< fakedrake> tell me if you agree with the ideas etc
20100403 20:05:53< Crab_> ok, I'll take a look at it now
20100403 20:06:08< fakedrake> http://wiki.wesnoth.org/GSoC-WMLDebugingSupport_fakedrake
20100403 20:06:09< timotei21> Crab_, I have a question: is ok if for now I don't comment the code I prototype?
20100403 20:06:15< fakedrake> thanks
20100403 20:06:35< Crab_> timotei21: it's ok. if something is not clear we'll just ask you :))
20100403 20:06:37< timotei21> I want to focus on trying different things,
20100403 20:06:38< timotei21> ok
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20100403 20:07:42< Crab_> fakedrake: it's ok if I edit your wiki page a bit to split off implementation plan from =Description= section, to avoid it being included in the main gsoc portal page ?
20100403 20:08:02< norbert_> hi, what would be the easiest way to find out the names/nicks of the creators of the MP scenarios and SP campaigns that come with the default install?
20100403 20:09:13< norbert_> /usr/share/doc/wesnoth* lists some names, but it's incomplete and doesn't say who created what - just a list of Copyright (C) <date> <name>
20100403 20:09:14< fakedrake> yeah its ok
20100403 20:09:21< fakedrake> help urself
20100403 20:09:46< fabi> norbert_, have a look at the scenarios  _main.cfg 
20100403 20:09:58< Crab_> norbert_: try awk or fgrep on /wesnoth/data/campaigns/*/_main.cfg
20100403 20:10:22< awilkins> fakedrake: I actually found out recently that the preprocessor does show the correct filename. Just not the right line number depending on the error.
20100403 20:11:05< fakedrake> hmm
20100403 20:11:13< shadowmaster> norbert_: try svn log on those files, too
20100403 20:11:19< fakedrake> i would dought that that is very stable
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20100403 20:11:49< fakedrake> my proposal is as the name suggests a proposal
20100403 20:12:00< fakedrake> u u guys think the current way is beter
20100403 20:12:11< fakedrake> or have other suggesions
20100403 20:12:22< norbert_> how about for example multiplayer/scenarios/4p_Lagoon.cfg
20100403 20:12:36< Crab_> fakedrake: ok, finished the edits, will read now
20100403 20:14:23< norbert_> what would be the easiest way to tell who created Lagoon
20100403 20:14:33< norbert_> and the other MP scenarios
20100403 20:14:48< shadowmaster> svn log ?
20100403 20:14:51< fakedrake> arent there comments in the source?
20100403 20:15:00< Crab_> norbert_: you can see who committed it to mainline, hopefully there will be mention of the author name somewhere in commit comments
20100403 20:15:04< norbert_> 4p_Lagoon.cfg doesn't contain information about the author(s)
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20100403 20:16:25< norbert_> I do know about the authors of a lot of addons because those names are on addons.wesnoth.org and when I download them with the app itself
20100403 20:16:35< shadowmaster> have I suggested svn log already?
20100403 20:16:42< norbert_> you have shadowmaster :)
20100403 20:16:50< norbert_> I just don't know how to get to those (yet)
20100403 20:17:01< norbert_> I never do anything but a co with svn
20100403 20:17:04< shadowmaster> with the "svn log" command if you have a SVN client installed
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20100403 20:17:08< Crab_> norbert_: you can try to abuse the web interface, too
20100403 20:17:11< shadowmaster> svn log path_to_file.cfg | less
20100403 20:17:41< Crab_> but the gna mustn't be down of that, of course ;)
20100403 20:17:44< Crab_> s/of/for
20100403 20:17:59< fabi> shadowmaster, norbert_ : svn at gna seems still to be down.
20100403 20:18:04< shadowmaster> svn log is also remote :(
20100403 20:18:12< Crab_> shadowmaster: yes. git svn log isn't :)
20100403 20:18:31< shadowmaster> yes, but I doubt he has a tree
20100403 20:20:31< norbert_> it would be nice if someone would take the time to assemble a list of the authors of the addons that come with the default package
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20100403 20:20:42< norbert_> I could be that person
20100403 20:20:48< Crab_> norbert_: :))
20100403 20:21:09< shadowmaster> or you could add proper comments in about.cfg for that purpose
20100403 20:21:34< shadowmaster> maybe we could also make about.cfg's extra info more accessible.
20100403 20:21:40< shadowmaster> s/we/someone else than me/
20100403 20:22:05< timotei21> :D
20100403 20:22:58< norbert_> about.cfg (the Credits) could also use a pause button
20100403 20:23:07< norbert_> :) it's scrolling so fast
20100403 20:23:23< shadowmaster> press down until it stops
20100403 20:23:33< norbert_> oh, nice
20100403 20:23:45< shadowmaster> you can also press up to make it go faster
20100403 20:23:56< norbert_> in that case it could use a note about the arrow keys :)
20100403 20:24:04< norbert_> I noticed
20100403 20:24:42< shadowmaster> I really think that it needs to be restructured to make it more useful, but since I'm not good at GUI ideas, I'm not going to even try
20100403 20:24:58< norbert_> so, the SP campaign credits are pretty clear
20100403 20:25:24< norbert_> mostly the MP scenarios whose authors aren't that easy to find
20100403 20:26:42< norbert_> so, svn.gna.org is currently down?
20100403 20:26:50< norbert_> temporary?
20100403 20:27:12< silene> zookeeper: no (and if it is currently fatal, i would consider it a bug, since the directory is actually present)
20100403 20:27:44< norbert_> but if it would work, I could do this? svn log svn://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/data/multiplayer/scenarios/4p_Lagoon.cfg
20100403 20:29:28< awilkins> Crab_: I read your conversation with fabi, so a wml tree isn't the structure used now? or is it?
20100403 20:29:43< Crab_> norbert_: yes, and it'll eventually tell you that that file was renamed from data/scenarios/multiplayer/4p_Lagoon.cfg
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20100403 20:30:12< norbert_> and then I do it again for that file
20100403 20:30:25< norbert_> and the author(s) are those who started on it or worked the most on it?
20100403 20:30:26< Crab_> norbert_: then, you'll repeat this process for data/scenarios/multiplayer/4p_Lagoon.cfg, and eventually find out that either it was before move to svn, or that it was added by someone..
20100403 20:30:55< fabi> awilkins: please precise your question.
20100403 20:31:35< norbert_> and if it's from before move to svn, I have to use git?
20100403 20:31:40< norbert_> is that still up?
20100403 20:31:46< Crab_> norbert_: no, before svn there was cvs
20100403 20:32:06< norbert_> but that's no longer up
20100403 20:32:11< Crab_> norbert_: you can google for old commit mails, maybe it'll help, there were a few..
20100403 20:32:18< awilkins> fabi: are the config files stored in memory as a tree?
20100403 20:32:29< Crab_> awilkins: well, our situation is somewhat different
20100403 20:32:42< Crab_> awilkins: we want to reuse the wesnoth's WML preprocessor
20100403 20:33:25< Crab_> awilkins: and we want it to have an error recovery mode, where it tries to ignore some parts of the WML tree that it cannot process
20100403 20:33:52< Crab_> awilkins: e.g, if we cannot parse scenario 1, we still want to try to parse scenario 2, to check it for errors
20100403 20:34:21< norbert_> maybe the cfg scenario files should have an author= field in them
20100403 20:34:22< awilkins> Crab_: so it returns errors from all the files, and not just the first one it sees?
20100403 20:34:27< Crab_> fakedrake: ok, I've read your proposal
20100403 20:34:50< Crab_> awilkins: exactly, we want to set all error markers in all files
20100403 20:35:25< norbert_> Crab_: is known when svn will be back up?
20100403 20:35:27< Crab_> awilkins: to the maximum extent possible
20100403 20:35:29< Crab_> norbert_: no
20100403 20:35:33< norbert_> okay
20100403 20:35:41< Crab_> norbert_: happens sometimes, ~ 1-2 days usually
20100403 20:35:57< fakedrake> Crab_: thanx
20100403 20:36:11< Crab_> fakedrake: you want to rewrite the preprocessor ?
20100403 20:36:27< fakedrake> yes
20100403 20:36:32< awilkins> Crab_: would that be returned in the log? or a better error window when the config files fail to load. 
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20100403 20:36:54< awilkins> Crab_: your preference that is
20100403 20:37:13< Crab_> awilkins: we want the WML preprocesor to be usable from a c++ program outside of wesnoth.
20100403 20:37:43< Crab_> awilkins: say, 'libWML'. then, all the external tools which work on WML can be modified to reuse it.
20100403 20:38:38< awilkins> Crab_: ahh like eclipse plugin?
20100403 20:39:02< Crab_> awilkins: then, for example, wmllint would be able to work on macroexpanded tree, and, if that three had debug info (file name, line numbers, macro, macro argument number, etc), it'll be able to work nicer.
20100403 20:39:04< awilkins> Crab_: like the eclipse plugin *
20100403 20:39:25< Crab_> awilkins: and the eclipse plugin, too.
20100403 20:39:46< Crab_> fakedrake: isn't it possible to fix the current preprocesor ?
20100403 20:41:37< fakedrake> well i thought of that
20100403 20:41:52< fakedrake> i though i would propose rewriting it
20100403 20:41:59< fakedrake> it looks like it has been patched a lot
20100403 20:42:03< fakedrake> as is
20100403 20:42:16< fakedrake> i wouldnt mind to try and fix it
20100403 20:42:22< Crab_> fakedrake: what needs fixing ?
20100403 20:42:23< fakedrake> i just dont know where to start
20100403 20:42:29< silene> fakedrake: "The current implementation of the preprocessor leaves no stable way to trace tha file name and line number of an error." is that a joke?
20100403 20:42:55< silene> all the lines of the preprocessor output have precise file and line locations
20100403 20:42:55< fakedrake> well it seems a bit hazy to me
20100403 20:43:50< fakedrake> well i think it could be nicer
20100403 20:43:51< fabi> silene, Well, the engine output is not usable for finding the error at least.
20100403 20:44:30< Crab_> fabi: well, the preprocessor log output which silene had shown me today, seemed quite usable
20100403 20:44:39< silene> fabi: that doesn't mean that the preprocessor doesn't how to count lines, it's just that the user interface is crappy; those are orthogonal issues
20100403 20:44:52< fabi> I see.
20100403 20:45:20< fakedrake> silene might be right
20100403 20:45:43< fakedrake> it took me a day to understand the code of the preprocessor
20100403 20:45:59< fakedrake> let alone debug it
20100403 20:46:06< fakedrake> that is why i proposed so
20100403 20:46:25< fakedrake> i coud sit down a week and learn it
20100403 20:46:37< fakedrake> by heart
20100403 20:46:49< fakedrake> but compared to other parts of the code
20100403 20:46:56< fakedrake> it need cleaning up
20100403 20:46:59< fakedrake> at least
20100403 20:48:20< silene> famous last words by suokko...
20100403 20:49:05< fakedrake> also if ww are considering what crab said about it being used by another c++ file in its current state i dont think it would be that good
20100403 20:49:56< Crab_> fakedrake: well, the code which uses it shouldn't care about the implementation, it should only care about the interface. so, it's not that relevant how it looks like inside.
20100403 20:51:18< fakedrake> it would be pretty hard to make a pretty interface
20100403 20:51:28< Crab_> fakedrake: what we (me & fabi) are interested, is the question "is it possible to add an error recovery mode to it, no allow it expand those parts of the 'tree' which are error-free, and find errors in other parts?"
20100403 20:51:28< fakedrake> *usable interface
20100403 20:51:48< Crab_> s/no allow/to allow
20100403 20:53:09< fakedrake> i can look into that
20100403 20:53:42< fakedrake> what i am suggesting is that it wouldnt be optimal
20100403 20:53:42< Crab_> fakedrake: such expansion will need to deal with define 'scope' issues (e.g., if three files are included , and first of them includes some defines which are used by second and third file, then it's not possible to correctly macroexpand the second and third file if the first contains errors)
20100403 20:54:36< Crab_> fakedrake: but, in many cases, such as with individual scenarios in a campaign, or individual campaigns, the files should be independent of each other, and thus can be checked for errors separately
20100403 20:56:05< fakedrake> hmm
20100403 20:56:34< Crab_> fakedrake: maybe, even if it's not possible in general case, it'll be possible with some changes to WML language syntax.
20100403 20:56:58< fakedrake> dont you think that would be the last thing to consider
20100403 20:57:36< fakedrake> i mean people got used to it as it is
20100403 20:57:41< Crab_> (note about macro usage and independence: see what wmlscope currently does)
20100403 20:58:36< Crab_> fakedrake: well, the main aim is to find ways to improve the WML coding/debugging experience.
20100403 20:59:17< Crab_> fakedrake: and even if that requires some changes to WML behavior, the benefits might be worth it.
20100403 20:59:28< fakedrake> i still think change in wml syntax is the last resort
20100403 21:00:02< fakedrake> could we branch to that?
20100403 21:00:18< fakedrake> fork*
20100403 21:00:18< silene> Crab_: what is the status of src/ai/formula/stage_rca_formulas.cpp? none of the functions are used on my build
20100403 21:00:58< Crab_> silene: dead code, previously owned by DK. safe to remove.
20100403 21:02:29< Crab_> fakedrake: well, 1.9 already includes some changes to WML syntax. it's ok to do them early in 1.9
20100403 21:02:51< fakedrake> hmm
20100403 21:02:55< fakedrake> ok
20100403 21:03:01< fakedrake> i will think about it a bit more
20100403 21:03:04< fakedrake> i have to go
20100403 21:03:06< silene> Crab_: will remove then, thanks
20100403 21:03:19< fakedrake> bye!
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20100403 21:03:40< Crab_> silene: thanks to you :)
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20100403 21:09:08< Crab_> hi, pokhbocee
20100403 21:12:43< awilkins> Crab, Silene, thanks for your help today, but I'm off. I'll try getting a new version of my proposal up monday night.
20100403 21:13:00< Crab_> awilkins: ok, good luck.
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20100403 21:19:50< pokhbocee> hi Crab_
20100403 21:20:09< boucman> hey all
20100403 21:20:14< timotei21> hey boucman
20100403 21:20:25< Crab_> pokhbocee: so, how it's going with the patch ? 
20100403 21:20:31< Crab_> hi, boucman
20100403 21:21:14< pokhbocee> Crab_: im thinking about how i can increase the efficiency of tree search
20100403 21:21:57< Crab_> pokhbocee: ok, good, too. note that you'd have around a week to formulate a plan ( 9th is the deadline for submission of proposals to google)
20100403 21:22:17< Crab_> hi, RandomDragon
20100403 21:22:50< pokhbocee> what do you mean by formulate a plan?
20100403 21:23:12< Crab_> pokhbocee: describe 'what are you going to do and how' on your wiki page and/or here on irc
20100403 21:23:34< pokhbocee> oh i see
20100403 21:24:06< pokhbocee> i think about it little bit. but i should start work on it too you r right.
20100403 21:24:22< Crab_> that's good
20100403 21:24:27< RandomDragon> hey Crab_
20100403 21:24:43< Crab_> RandomDragon: I want to talk about your GSoC proposal a bit
20100403 21:25:12< RandomDragon> sounds good, because I was planning to talk to you guys about it too :D
20100403 21:25:47< Crab_> I was wondering... what changes do you propose to do ? some things that I see on your wiki page are already present in wesnoth.
20100403 21:26:11< Crab_> wesbot: patch 1528
20100403 21:26:12< wesbot> Patch #1528  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: Done  Priority: 5 - Normal
20100403 21:26:15< wesbot> Summary: Allow naming hotseat players something else than "Anonymous Local Player"
20100403 21:26:17< Crab_> RandomDragon: for example ^
20100403 21:26:18< wesbot> Original submission: I've added a button to the multiplayer game waiting room 
20100403 21:26:21< wesbot> to add named local players.Previously, hotseat players would all be named "A
20100403 21:26:24< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/patch/?1528
20100403 21:26:26< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=8656
20100403 21:26:53< RandomDragon> perhaps I have an old version of the game installed then, because I didn't have that option
20100403 21:27:01< RandomDragon> let me check that
20100403 21:27:03< pokhbocee> Crab_: the thing i understand (or that make sense to me) from the description of ai in wiki, the main executer is going to choose among types of moves. it decide weather to attack,defense, retreat etc. and than search algorithm will choose the action from the tree of that type of moves.
20100403 21:27:07< Crab_> RandomDragon: yes, it was done recently
20100403 21:27:24< RandomDragon> okay, I'll update my version
20100403 21:27:36< pokhbocee> Crab_: is that right? or you want all possible moves to be mixed in single tree and the move should be chosen from that tree ?
20100403 21:27:52< RandomDragon> what about the part of it about making it so in the choose player location screen players can see where they will be on the map?
20100403 21:28:29< boucman> hmm, how would that work with shroud ?
20100403 21:29:13< RandomDragon> well, if you have played the map before, you would know that spot #1 is the spot at the top left, for example
20100403 21:29:28< RandomDragon> so you wouldn't get to see that spot once the game starts
20100403 21:29:47< RandomDragon> but you would be able to tell that you are on the left, and so your friend could also join you on the left more easily
20100403 21:29:56< Crab_> RandomDragon: that's good. but this shouldn't be too hard to do. so, your project 'as described' is too small for gsoc (e.g., someone might implement all of that in a week or less)
20100403 21:30:05< RandomDragon> okay
20100403 21:30:31< RandomDragon> any suggestions?  Or should I just try one of the already listed ones?
20100403 21:30:36< Crab_> RandomDragon: so, some other ideas are needed, too, to make it more interesting 
20100403 21:31:05< RandomDragon> I'll see what I can come up with, but I'm running out of time, as you mentioned a few minutes back
20100403 21:31:15< Crab_> RandomDragon: you can propose your own project, too. but it should be big enough for a gsoc- otherwise you'll do it in a week and then wonder 'what's next?'
20100403 21:32:08< Crab_> there's plenty of ideas, good and bad, on the forums
20100403 21:32:14< RandomDragon> okay
20100403 21:32:18< RandomDragon> I'll browse through that
20100403 21:32:43< RandomDragon> I'm guessing the idea is to be one main idea, rather then 5 small ideas, right?
20100403 21:32:43< Crab_> RandomDragon: ok. propose any interesting ones here, we can discuss them
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20100403 21:32:53< Crab_> RandomDragon: well, 5 small ideas is good, too
20100403 21:33:12< Crab_> RandomDragon: it has good points - even if you do 4 of 5, the gsoc will be generally successful
20100403 21:33:37< Crab_> RandomDragon: and if you do 80% of a , say, 'one big project', your work might be unusable till completed.
20100403 21:34:13< RandomDragon> ahhh, true that
20100403 21:34:38< Crab_> RandomDragon: so, 'implement those 20 feature requests no one bothered to do' can be a good project, too. :)
20100403 21:34:39< RandomDragon> and as it turned out, I had version 1.6.5 installed, so I'm downloading version 1.8 as I type :D
20100403 21:34:57< RandomDragon> heh, okay, I'll keep that in mind
20100403 21:35:23< Crab_> RandomDragon: that's good :) say hello to new features and new bugs :) generally, you need to checkout the 'trunk' version from svn. for example, the patch for 'names of leaders' is only available in trunk version, it's not in 1.8
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20100403 21:36:31< RandomDragon> okay
20100403 21:36:34< RandomDragon> thanks
20100403 21:37:13< Crab_> :)
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20100403 21:39:27< Crab_> pokhbocee: do you talk about your potential implementation or about 'candidate action evaluation loop' ?
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20100403 21:42:32< Crab_> pokhbocee: if you're about 'candidate action evaluation loop' , then there we have 'possible move types mixed in single list and the move type should be chosen from that list'
20100403 21:43:04< Crab_> pokhbocee: if about your potential implementation, then use whatever is good for you. I don't know what will be better since I haven't seen your proposed algorithm
20100403 21:44:14< Crab_> pokhbocee: if you're about integrating your implementation with the  'candidate action evaluation loop' , then you can have either 1 candidate action which considers a tree, or M candidate actions, each of them dealing with a specified type of tree.
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20100403 21:48:26< AI0867> is gna refusing anyone else's connections?
20100403 21:48:44< Crab_> AI0867: yes
20100403 21:53:19< RandomDragon> I was able to connect to GNA, although firefox complained about the certificate being invalid
20100403 21:53:42< timotei21> the hackers
20100403 21:53:47< timotei21> are on it:-S
20100403 21:54:08< Crab_> RandomDragon: svn.gna.org is having issues.
20100403 21:55:01< AI0867> svn.gna.org responds to ping, but refuses everything on port 22
20100403 21:56:01< AI0867> same thing on 3690
20100403 21:56:04< RandomDragon> oh, you are trying to SSH, okay
20100403 21:56:15< RandomDragon> I was on https://gna.org/bugs/
20100403 21:56:23< RandomDragon> so nevermind what I said :D
20100403 21:56:24< AI0867> yeah, http(s) works
20100403 21:56:36< timotei21> Error Error:No group chosen: nogroup; 
20100403 21:58:36< RandomDragon> where are saved games stored?  I need to copy them over to the new version now that I have installed it...
20100403 21:59:09< AI0867> RandomDragon: which OS?
20100403 21:59:10< Crab_> RandomDragon: user profile directory, usually .wesnoth in the home directory
20100403 21:59:12< RandomDragon> also, that could be a feature to add, would be detecting previous versions
20100403 21:59:15< RandomDragon> windows 7
20100403 22:00:25< timotei21> it's in the game's folder
20100403 22:00:28< timotei21> \userdata
20100403 22:00:35< timotei21> d:\home\Games\Battle for Wesnoth 1.6.5\userdata\
20100403 22:00:37< Crab_> timotei21: thanks
20100403 22:00:40< timotei21> this one for example
20100403 22:00:49< timotei21> lol, me using still 1.6.5 ;))
20100403 22:00:58< timotei21> np
20100403 22:01:12< pokhbocee> Crab_: im not sure i understand the difference of candidate actions
20100403 22:01:14< timotei21> omg, my mobile inbox is full of "happy easter" messages :))
20100403 22:01:47< RandomDragon> for some reason I don't have a userdata folder in my 1.6.5 install
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20100403 22:01:59< timotei21> weird
20100403 22:02:06< RandomDragon> i know
20100403 22:02:12< timotei21> then..
20100403 22:02:28< AI0867> RandomDragon: that's windows's "directory virtualization" or something
20100403 22:02:39< AI0867> it's hidden in your /User dir
20100403 22:02:44< timotei21> try: C:\users\<yourname>\appdata\local
20100403 22:02:52< timotei21> or \roaming instead of local
20100403 22:02:56< timotei21> there should be
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20100403 22:03:14< pokhbocee> Crab_: btm i couldnt find the interface to determine allies
20100403 22:03:17< Crab_> timotei21: you can simply try to open %APPDATA% for that
20100403 22:03:40< RandomDragon> nope, not there either
20100403 22:03:43< timotei21> yes, that's true
20100403 22:03:46< RandomDragon> but I can still load saved games
20100403 22:03:54< Crab_> pokhbocee: yes, it might be that it's missing. then, a good thing is to add it. one way to do that is to add a "wesnoth.is_enemy(side1,side2)" function
20100403 22:04:08< timotei21> then search in C:\users\<youname> for "save_index.gz"
20100403 22:04:23< Crab_> RandomDragon: see stderr.txt in wesnoth directory, as well
20100403 22:04:39< Crab_> RandomDragon: it might say something like User configuration directory: PATH
20100403 22:04:45< Crab_> RandomDragon: at the top
20100403 22:04:53< loonycyborg> RandomDragon: Look in Documents/My Games
20100403 22:05:57< pokhbocee> Crab_: ok ill do it. btw what is the difference of candidate action im confused?
20100403 22:05:59< Crab_> pokhbocee: what is the exact thing that you don't understand about the usage candidate actions, can you explain your question more ?
20100403 22:06:00< RandomDragon> nope
20100403 22:06:11< Crab_> s/usage/usage of
20100403 22:06:34< pokhbocee> so candidate action is the action which is considered to be taken or?
20100403 22:06:39< RandomDragon> also, a search of my computer for stderr.txt returned nothing
20100403 22:07:27< Crab_> RandomDragon: also see http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23894 
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20100403 22:07:39< Crab_> pokhbocee: candidate action is "if CONDITION, then, doing ACTION has priority SCORE'
20100403 22:07:52< timotei21> ok guys
20100403 22:07:54< timotei21> I have to go
20100403 22:07:56< timotei21> good night
20100403 22:07:56< Crab_> pokhbocee: where CONDITION, ACTION, SCORE are determined by candidate action itself
20100403 22:07:58< Crab_> timotei21: bye
20100403 22:08:19< pokhbocee> im not sure i understand it
20100403 22:09:01-!- timotei21 [~timotei21@188.24.6.194] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
20100403 22:09:09< Crab_> pokhbocee: example: IF (my leader is not on keep and there's nearby keep we can move on and we have enough gold to recruit) THEN (move leader to keep) with score (40000)
20100403 22:09:27< RandomDragon> Crab_: Thanks, that got it
20100403 22:09:56< pokhbocee> score is its heuristic value or smth?
20100403 22:10:25< Crab_> yes, it's a number which determines the relative priority of an action, e.g., recruit>combat> move , etc
20100403 22:10:37< pokhbocee> ok i think i got it
20100403 22:10:49< pokhbocee> im going to have lunch ill be back in half an hour
20100403 22:11:05< Crab_> pokhbocee: you can code your tree analysis code to use this interface, too, e.g. IF(evaluation of tree returns a good move sequence), then (do first move in that sequence) with priority (just before combat)
20100403 22:11:33< Crab_> that way, i'll be possible to use your code side-by-side with other ai components, written in c++, or formula  ai, or lua
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20100403 22:12:30< Crab_> pokhbocee: code-wise, if it's done in c++, then it's 'make a new class which inherits from ai::candidate_action and register it as a candidate action in src/ai/registry.cpp
20100403 22:13:07< Crab_> in that class, you'll need to implement two functions - evaluate() and execute()
20100403 22:13:32< Crab_> evalute() returns BAD_SCORE if no good moves are available from this candidate action, else returns SCORE.
20100403 22:13:44< Crab_> execute() does one or move actions
20100403 22:13:55< Crab_> evaluate() must not change the game state
20100403 22:14:09< Crab_> execute() must change the game state, if it won't do that, it'll be blacklisted
20100403 22:14:26< Crab_> (blacklisted = not used again until end of turn)
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20100403 22:17:50< Ivanovic> @ all SoC students: do not forget to submit your proposal to google till friday!
20100403 22:17:54< Ivanovic> better submit it "soon"
20100403 22:18:02< Ivanovic> you can still finetune later on
20100403 22:18:13< Ivanovic> but proposals that are not listed at google can *not* be accepted in SoC
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20100403 22:32:30< RandomDragon> are there multi-player campaigns?
20100403 22:32:37< Crab_> RandomDragon: yes
20100403 22:32:53< RandomDragon> under campaign, or multi-player?
20100403 22:33:03< Crab_> under multiplayer
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20100403 22:40:57< RandomDragon> I'm guessing a SoC proposal of "go through and implement as many feature requests as I can" is too vague, right?
20100403 22:41:09< ancestral> Haha
20100403 22:41:24< RandomDragon> ;)
20100403 22:41:25< boucman> just a bit :P
20100403 22:41:43< Crab_> RandomDragon: well, you'll need to show us that 'I can' part :)
20100403 22:41:55< ancestral> RandomDragon: You don't have to GSoC and then you can implement all the FR's you want :)
20100403 22:42:18< Crab_> RandomDragon: e.g., if you fix NN bugs in a week before 9th, we might be impressed and extrapolate that number over the GSoC :)
20100403 22:42:36< RandomDragon> humm
20100403 22:42:52< boucman> (if NN is large, we might not have enough bugs :P)
20100403 22:42:56< RandomDragon> lol
20100403 22:43:28< RandomDragon> well, since I'm rather busy due to having classes this week, and part time work, I don't expect to be able to fix very many
20100403 22:43:30< Crab_> boucman: well, then we can switch to obscure feature requests :)
20100403 22:43:40< RandomDragon> but the summer will be free, thus more time to work
20100403 22:43:44< RandomDragon> but I'll get started
20100403 22:43:58< RandomDragon> should I focus more on bugs, or feature requests?
20100403 22:44:32< Crab_> RandomDragon: you should find an area which is interesting for you, it's easier to do things that are interesting :)
20100403 22:44:37< boucman> RandomDragon: doesn't matter much, it's mainly for us to see you work
20100403 22:45:47< RandomDragon> I'll try and mix it up a bit then, do some bugs, some requests, that sort of thing
20100403 22:52:42< RandomDragon> is there a prefered branch of subversion to be used on windows?
20100403 22:52:55< boucman> monitoring a game (LoW mp) here a small AI idea that could be used as an easy coding :
20100403 22:53:22< boucman> a low priority action to make sure that when the recruiting zone is crowded, some units move away...
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20100403 22:53:47< Crab_> RandomDragon: use trunk
20100403 22:55:11< RandomDragon> trunk? isn't that linux only?
20100403 22:55:16< mordante> no
20100403 22:55:24< mordante> that's the main development branch
20100403 22:55:37< Ivanovic> grml, gna svn still down...
20100403 22:55:58< mordante> yup :-(
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20100403 23:01:56< Darkas_> hi
20100403 23:02:02< Crab_> hi, Darkas_
20100403 23:02:30< Darkas_> I got a small question about the proposal I have to fill at google
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20100403 23:02:50< Crab_> ok
20100403 23:02:52< Crab_> ask :)
20100403 23:03:03< Darkas_> should I simply copy the questionnaire, or is there a way to link the wiki page to google?
20100403 23:04:06< Crab_> I'd say 'copy a basic description, and say 'my proposal is described in more detail at http://wiki.wesnoth.org/SummerOfCodeProposal_Darkas '
20100403 23:04:36< Crab_> and mention your irc nickname, if it differs from your id in there
20100403 23:04:47< boucman> Darkas_: not sure about what you're allowed to do at gooogle, but we usually use only the wiki page when it's available... so a simple link would be sufficiant as far as we are concerned (google might ask for more
20100403 23:04:52< Darkas_> yeah, I've done that already
20100403 23:05:19< Darkas_> well, at google there's a form that uses the questionnaire
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20100403 23:15:35< Ivanovic> Darkas_: do what Crab_ said and make sure to add all data you don't want to have listed in the wiki
20100403 23:15:42< Ivanovic> since the propsals at google stay private IIRC
20100403 23:15:56< Ivanovic> (only the short summary is published or the likes)
20100403 23:16:07< Darkas_> Ivanovic: ok
20100403 23:16:19< Ivanovic> so the right place for adding your email addy and phone number or any other contact data is in the google form
20100403 23:16:20< Darkas_> thanks :)
20100403 23:16:39< Darkas_> ok
20100403 23:17:21< shadowmaster> gg/37
20100403 23:19:23-!- yann [~dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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20100403 23:24:17< Deiz> I haven't tried 1.8, but as of 1.7.15, when a match ends, all players see themselves as the first player
20100403 23:24:29< Deiz> Their labels show up in his colour, as do their messages (locally)
20100403 23:24:38-!- Crab_ changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. 80 bugs, 258 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100403 23:24:56< Deiz> It seems the first player sees players' messages in their original colour
20100403 23:25:10< Deiz> All players also see the first player's stats, but not their own
20100403 23:25:16< Deiz> Is that known/rectified?
20100403 23:25:40-!- mordante changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: GSoC: proposals are to be submitted to Google before 9th April 19:00 UTC. Also, when your wiki page is ready, ask us to review it. | 80 bugs, 258 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20100403 23:26:04< Ivanovic> Deiz: no, it is not known/reports
20100403 23:26:13< Ivanovic> s/reports/reported
20100403 23:26:33< Crab_> Deiz: the best place to report it is on https://gna.org/bugs/?func=additem&group=wesnoth
20100403 23:26:54< mordante> I'm off night
20100403 23:27:10-!- mordante [~mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20100403 23:27:49< Deiz> Aye, was just checking
20100403 23:27:52< Deiz> Will file a bug in a bit
20100403 23:27:56< Crab_> Deiz: thanks!
20100403 23:33:43-!- nagbot [~root@smtp.terraninfo.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100403 23:33:46< nagbot> Hi!
20100403 23:33:46< nagbot> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students
20100403 23:33:46< nagbot> Register your proposal with Google
20100403 23:33:49< nagbot> The deadline is coming - application period closes at Apr 9th, 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST) 
20100403 23:33:52< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2010, no matter how good you communicated with us or *whatever* 
20100403 23:33:56< nagbot> We can select ONLY people listed there!
20100403 23:33:58< nagbot> Submit patches and prototypes for review, so we'll see how you work.
20100403 23:34:01< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions. 
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20100403 23:46:08< Abion47> Can I set my account in the forums to be GSoC?
20100403 23:46:13-!- silene [~plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20100403 23:46:21< Crab_> Abion47: yes, what's your account name on forum ?
20100403 23:46:30< Abion47> same name
20100403 23:46:31< Abion47> Abion47
20100403 23:46:36< Crab_> ok, I'll do so now
20100403 23:46:51< Abion47> thankee much
20100403 23:48:16-!- nagbot [~root@wesnoth/bot/nagbot] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20100403 23:49:02 * nagbot thanks Ivanovic
20100403 23:50:36< shadowmaster> another one?
20100403 23:50:45< shadowmaster> running as root even?
20100403 23:51:04< Crab_> shadowmaster: same one. yes, but in a jail.
20100403 23:51:08< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: an SoC related bot, made to nag students about things that have to be done
20100403 23:51:25< shadowmaster> Ivanovic: yes, I met it last year
20100403 23:51:40< shadowmaster> shikadibot stole some of its source code for a while
20100403 23:51:47< Ivanovic> :)
20100403 23:52:51< Crab_> Abion47: done
20100403 23:53:03< Abion47> thanks much
20100403 23:55:23< Crab_> shadowmaster: I've got a feeling that I'll spend some time tomorrow to rewrite it in java :)
20100403 23:56:00< shadowmaster> rrr.
20100403 23:56:16< shadowmaster> I'm currently hating Java for breaking its "cross platform compatibility" promise
20100403 23:56:33< shadowmaster> I've got this software that has a Java-based installer...which doesn't work!
20100403 23:57:19< Crab_> well, I think that you can write non-portable code in any language :)
20100403 23:57:46< shadowmaster> so why would you use Java then!?
20100403 23:57:47-!- Abion47 [~86fa949d@gateway/web/freenode/x-vxgfnousjzwpotib] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
20100403 23:58:02< Blarumyrran> Aren't "installers" non-portable by their nature
20100403 23:58:09< shadowmaster> well, having it in C++ wouldn't solve anything anyway. The manufacturers are a bunch of idiots anyway
20100403 23:58:11-!- AnMaster [~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20100403 23:58:20< Crab_> shadowmaster: because it'll be the fastest way for me :)
20100403 23:58:30< shadowmaster> anyway, I meant cross-Linux portability, not cross-platform.
20100403 23:58:52< shadowmaster> the installer in question throws up a Java exception on startup anyway, it's not going to tell me what's wrong or why.
--- Log closed Sun Apr 04 00:00:21 2010